Is placing belief above facts an acceptable way to govern?

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there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Observor re-print of NYT article 'Without a Doubt'

In the summer of 2002, a senior advisor to Bush told me that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
Which, basically summarised, means: Believing you're right is more important than checking whether you are (because the facts will change to match your belief - if you're powerful that is)

A few questions then:

-Just thinking about your own lives, do you think you should act on your beliefs no matter what the apparent facts, or should facts help shape your beliefs (and actions)?

-Is the US really so powerful that it can do what it wants to all extents and purposes?

-Is the US always right when it tries to do what it wants?

-Is placing belief above facts an acceptable way to govern?

Feel free to argue with my interpretation of that quote, and with the questions

---

(Transcript of 'Without a Doubt': http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/101704A.shtml)
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But I'd rather tell him in mine........LOL
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there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by SamsoniteDelilah
That's just plain psychotic. And scary.
The PNAC project is well under way .

Not to worry. If they fail, by underestimating their own weaknesses (as i think they might), that'll be one big deterrent to anyone else who thinks they can smite with God's might .

Worry for all the people who go to an unrapturous end thanks to power misuse, sure. But there's not much we can do either way. Except not let either type of 'empirical' megalomania hold sway (i.e. crusadingly rational or crusadingly spiritual). If we focus on that, a more productive type of spiritual practicality may well have it's day



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by mandyheartbreaker
But I'd rather tell him in mine........LOL


I heard something today about Bush flashing the bird during a break in an interview (dunno if it's true tho - heard it from the same mate who was convinced that Kentucky Fried Chicken started in Preston, England ).

Makes me think tho of the slightly worrying bit in that article where Bush is shown to be a fairly useless/inept board member, whose only skill is telling bawdy jokes, just before he sets off to become a Governor

The bush bashing ain't as important as the belief-over-facts bashing, but still, sometimes you've gotta ask: is this guy's main personal asset his smirking impishness?



Ever notice that, whichever party is in power, we always have scores of character assessments and accusations based on unnamed sources and "senior officials," which never jive with what the administration is actually saying? We should probably have an actual source before we construct all sorts of elaborate criticisms, because it's pretty clear that people only heed the nameless sources when they like what they have to say.

And yes, Bush did give the middle finger, jokingly. I saw the video.



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Yoda
Ever notice that, whichever party is in power, we always have scores of character assessments and accusations based on unnamed sources and "senior officials," which never jive with what the administration is actually saying? We should probably have an actual source before we construct all sorts of elaborate criticisms, because it's pretty clear that people only heed the nameless sources when they like what they have to say.

And yes, Bush did give the middle finger, jokingly. I saw the video.
Well, the principle of protecting sources is an understandable, but abusable, media tradition. And a good one too - it allows party members and civil servants to go 'off-message', for a start.

In this case however, the source isn't deliberately criticising the admin, just accidently making it look bad. So there are two probable reasons for the name being withheld:
(1) the source doesn't want to admit that he said that -and let's face it Yods, no admin is ever going to officially declare itself unilateralist and out to do whatever it wants
(2) It's an inaccurate quote and the journo thinks he'll get sued etc if he associates it with this high-level individual.

So let's compare the statement with the only thing we can - actions in the real world that might back it up or discredit it.

As far as i'm concerned there's ample evidence that the Bushies are strongly pursuing certain agendas despite the obstructions they run up against in the form of awkward realities, nation states or global structures that might be standing in their way. If i'm right about this (and i'll happily state my arguments again ), then this particular semi-anonymous statment 'jives' very well indeed with the admin's behaviour.

So yes, i agree that i already believe the Bush admin think along the lines stated in the quote - but only coz of prior evidence. And yes, i'm prepared to believe this is an accurate quote, and represents some of the internal thinking of the Bush admin - but again, only coz it tallies with their actions, not just coz i 'want' to believe it

EDIT: I guess at the end of the day i just want to discuss the realities - and i wanted the quote to be a catalyst for that .



Arresting your development
Originally Posted by Golgot
- heard it from the same mate who was convinced that Kentucky Fried Chicken started in Preston, England ).
I don't like Kentucky Chucky.

*...and now back to your thread!*
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there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Anonymous Last
I don't like Kentucky Chucky.

*...and now back to your thread!*
'Preston Poultry' would be worse, trust me (it'd be fish-n-chips disguised as chicken for a start )



Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
-Just thinking about your own lives, do you think you should act on your beliefs no matter what the apparent facts, or should facts help shape your beliefs (and actions)?
A=A... no matter who says otherwise. We can re-write the history books, but the facts don't go away.

-Is the US really so powerful that it can do what it wants to all extents and purposes?
Riding roughshod over the basic rights of other nations is going to catch up with us. Right now, we're demanding credit at the point of a gun. Sooner or later, that's going to get well-deserved backlash, and our economy is going to pay a dear price.

-Is the US always right when it tries to do what it wants?
In some cases, yes. The idea of removing a mass murderer from power, for instance, was not a bad idea. Doing so unilaterally (which is the thrust of the article you've quoted) was not right, however. Nor was it the actual reason for the attack.

-Is placing belief above facts an acceptable way to govern?
It's nutty as a Mars bar.



Originally Posted by Golgot
Well, the principle of protecting sources is an understandable, but abusable, media tradition. And a good one too - it allows party members and civil servants to go 'off-message', for a start.

In this case however, the source isn't deliberately criticising the admin, just accidently making it look bad. So there are two probable reasons for the name being withheld:
(1) the source doesn't want to admit that he said that -and let's face it Yods, no admin is ever going to officially declare itself unilateralist and out to do whatever it wants
(2) It's an inaccurate quote and the journo thinks he'll get sued etc if he associates it with this high-level individual.

So let's compare the statement with the only thing we can - actions in the real world that might back it up or discredit it.

As far as i'm concerned there's ample evidence that the Bushies are strongly pursuing certain agendas despite the obstructions they run up against in the form of awkward realities, nation states or global structures that might be standing in their way. If i'm right about this (and i'll happily state my arguments again ), then this particular semi-anonymous statment 'jives' very well indeed with the admin's behaviour.

So yes, i agree that i already believe the Bush admin think along the lines stated in the quote - but only coz of prior evidence. And yes, i'm prepared to believe this is an accurate quote, and represents some of the internal thinking of the Bush admin - but again, only coz it tallies with their actions, not just coz i 'want' to believe it
I think it only tallies with an exaggerated, caricaturized version of their actions. Acting unilaterally, for example, is not the same thing as acting imperially, but if you already think of the US as an imperial power, you'd easily see it as an example of that.

Also, the quotes from this source are almost comical...they're virtually indistinguishable from what Bush's most ardent, fringe opponents often claim he "really" thinks. I recall you saying you had an inherent distrust of things that "fit too well" -- if this doesn't qualify, what would?


Originally Posted by Golgot
EDIT: I guess at the end of the day i just want to discuss the realities - and i wanted the quote to be a catalyst for that .
That I can understand.



Originally Posted by SamsoniteDelilah
A=A... no matter who says otherwise. We can re-write the history books, but the facts don't go away.
You're answering rhetorical questions, you know. The real debate is not over whether or not people should be disregarding facts (they shouldn't) -- the real debate is over what the facts actually are.


Originally Posted by SamsoniteDelilah
Riding roughshod over the basic rights of other nations is going to catch up with us. Right now, we're demanding credit at the point of a gun. Sooner or later, that's going to get well-deserved backlash, and our economy is going to pay a dear price.
This is vague; what, specifically, are you saying, and what is it based on?


Originally Posted by SamsoniteDelilah
In some cases, yes. The idea of removing a mass murderer from power, for instance, was not a bad idea. Doing so unilaterally (which is the thrust of the article you've quoted) was not right, however. Nor was it the actual reason for the attack.
There is not (and was not) a single reason for the invasion. You'd have to rewrite an awful lot of recent history to claim otherwise; from dozens of speeches and statements leading up to the war, to the name of the operation itself.

As for the fact that it was done unilaterally (which, as I'm sure you realize, is not at all literal, unless the world now consists primarily of the US, Russia, and France); I would ask what other option we had? The UN had not shown even the slightest indication that it might actually enforce its resolutions, and our most vocal opponents had an economic stake in their opposition. What plausible alternative to unilateral action did we have, then?


Originally Posted by SamsoniteDelilah
-Is placing belief above facts an acceptable way to govern?
It's nutty as a Mars bar.



I love it when Yods and Gollygosh talk
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2wrongs's Avatar
Official Sacrifice to Holden Pike
The Important News About Iraq That Has Gone Unreported
Amir Taheri, Arab News

For the past month or so, while the media have been obsessed with the activities of Moqtada Sadr and his fighters in Najaf, much of the really important news about Iraq has gone largely unreported.

This is not to blame television. After all the seizure of a holy shrine by a militia makes dramatic footage.

There is also the fact that nostalgics of pan-Arabism and pan-Islamists of all ilk, badly in need of a new cult figure, believe that they have found it in the person of the 30-year old Sadr.

Anyway, let us not begrudge Sadr’s 15 minutes of fame. The firework that he has provoked in Najaf is unlikely to be remembered either as the rebirth of pan-Arabism or as the revival of the Islamic caliphate in Baghdad.

All this does not mean that Sadr’s little show should not be covered. It should. After all, journalism, the realm of the ephemeral, seeks its daily fare in transient events.

Students of journalism, however, know the difference between the events that furnish most of the daily headlines and the undercurrents that shape the broader context of a society’s political life. Now what are the undercurrents that, with eyes fixed on the current events, are largely ignored?

The most important is that post-liberation Iraq, defying great odds, has succeeded in carrying out its political reform agenda on schedule. A governing council was set up at the time promised. It in turn, created a provisional government right on schedule. Next, municipal elections were held in almost all parts of the country. Then followed the drafting of a new democratic and pluralist constitution. Then came the formal end of the occupation and the appointing of a new interim government.

Earlier this month, the political reconstruction program reached a new high point with the convening of the National Congress.

Bringing together some 1300 men and women representing all ethnic, religious, linguistic and political groups, the congress was the first genuinely pluralistic assembly of Iraqis at that level.

The congress performed its duty by creating a 100-member Parliament with wide powers of oversight and control over the interim government. A close examination of the composition of this new interim Parliament shows that it is the most representative political body ever to take charge of Iraq’s destiny.

The formation of the interim Parliament, which will be at the heart of the nation’s politics during the next 15 months or so is a major step toward creating the institutions of democracy.

The Parliament’s tasks include the holding of elections for a constituent assembly, the supervision of a referendum on that constitution, and general elections to pick a new government; all that before the end of next year.

The events mentioned above, and largely ignored by the media, indicate a remarkably rapid progress toward democratization in Iraq. And, yet, at every step we had countless doomsayers who predicted that this or that step would not be taken because of “security problems.”

The truth is that Iraq did not enjoy security under Saddam Hussein either. This is because, while there can be no freedom without security, there is also no security without freedom.

Were the Juburi tribes secure under Saddam when he sent his special units to massacre them as an act of political revenge? How much security did the Shammar tribes enjoy when Saddam seized two-thirds of their land to distribute among his henchmen? And was it to give them security that Saddam transferred thousands of families from Mosul and Kirkuk in the north to central and southern Iraq? And these were all Sunni Muslims who were supposed to provide the principal base of his regime. As for the Shiites and the Kurds, the security they enjoyed under Saddam Hussein is symbolized by the mass graves that dot the Iraqi countryside, and the corpses strewn in the streets of Halabja after a chemical attack. And was it because they did not like security that almost four million Iraqis fled into exile during the Baathist rule?

The faceless gangsters who seize hostages, cut throats and kill women and children in streets are products of the culture of violence that successive despotic regimes generated in Iraq. The sole medium of expression they know is violence. They are convinced that he who is ready to kill the most has the best chance of winning power.

Thus what Iraq is experiencing now is a much bigger struggle, a cultural war, whose outcome will determine not only the future of that suffering nation but also the political prospects of almost all Arab countries.

On one side in this cultural war one finds the remnants of Saddamism, including Sadr who, although a victim of the tyrant, remains a Saddamite in terms of political practice. This side has been reinforced by hundreds, perhaps thousands, of non-Iraqi fascists who are determined to plunge Iraq into chaos.

On the other side of this cultural war one finds all those Iraqis who have understood that the politics of mass murder and terror is not the best that their nation could hope for.

To be sure, the two camps are not entirely black or white. On the side symbolized by Sadr, although he heads a small but noisy faction, one finds some sincere but misguided Iraqis.

The democratic camp in Iraq does not consist of choirboys either. Here one finds quite a few opportunists, job seekers, wheeler-dealers and outright crooks. Nor is the democratic process, as it has developed so far, beyond criticism.

On balance, however, it is in Iraq’s best interest, indeed in the best interest of the region and the world as a whole, that the democratic camp wins this cultural war.

The real story line in Iraq is stark, if not simple: A newly liberated nation is divided between those who wish to revive the despotic past, in one form or another, and those who have vague, at times conflicting, visions of a democratic future.

Behind the two Iraqi camps one also finds rival external forces. Some anti-democratic forces are determined to do all they can to prevent the establishment of a mould-breaking new regime in Baghdad. The democratic countries, on the other hand, are deeply divided on Iraq’s future.

Some have not yet recovered from the effects of the bitter debates of last year. Others maybe baulking at the prospect of commitment to a difficult project for years to come.

The big news, however, is that Iraq, for the first time since its existence as a country, has a choice. It is this big picture that is seldom noticed because of the media’s fixation with events of passing importance.

I'd say that people still trying to whine about the rights of the Iraqis have no clue in their head about what's really going on. Pull your heads up out of the sand and read more into the story than what your friends and your biased news sources tell you.
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chicagofrog's Avatar
history *is* moralizing
Originally Posted by Yoda
What plausible alternative to unilateral action did we have, then?
NOT to attack a country when everybody knows that
1) terrorism didn't come from there
2) they had NO mass-murdering weapons hidden anywhere
??

as for the reasons for war, all over the world, like so-called "politics" nowadays, what rules, if not economy? this applies to France in Ivory Coast as well as USA in Middle-East...
in that last particular case, it's been said and re-said (and proven), "black money", i.e. oil.
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2wrongs's Avatar
Official Sacrifice to Holden Pike
Originally Posted by chicagofrog
NOT to attack a country when everybody knows that
1) terrorism didn't come from there
2) they had NO mass-murdering weapons hidden anywhere
??
ugh.
Did you look at the article I posted before you wrote this? Here's a good reason to go to war:

Freedom.



Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
Originally Posted by Yoda
You're answering rhetorical questions, you know.
Yeah, I know. It seemed a more entertaining way to bump the thread than saying "bump".

The real debate is not over whether or not people should be disregarding facts (they shouldn't) -- the real debate is over what the facts actually are.
That's not the real debate raised by the quote Gg posted...


This is vague; what, specifically, are you saying, and what is it based on?
Specifically, I'm saying:
1. We're at war because Nixon took us off the gold standard, making our economy based more on our reputation than any objective measure which allowed the following to happen:
2. We have bolstered our economy through our control of oil and oil dollars and that went unchecked as long as no one was taking euros for oil. Which all changed when...
3. Iraq said, "screw the dollar, we'll take euros" and <bamf!> we declare war under the guise of protecting ourselves from iraqi nukes and a bunch of other stories that were equally unrelated.

Based on this.


There is not (and was not) a single reason for the invasion. You'd have to rewrite an awful lot of recent history to claim otherwise; from dozens of speeches and statements leading up to the war, to the name of the operation itself.
I didn't say there was. Others have said there was, and the reason they've given doesn't hold water.

As for the fact that it was done unilaterally (which, as I'm sure you realize, is not at all literal, unless the world now consists primarily of the US, Russia, and France); I would ask what other option we had? The UN had not shown even the slightest indication that it might actually enforce its resolutions, and our most vocal opponents had an economic stake in their opposition. What plausible alternative to unilateral action did we have, then?
Sit tight and wait til the inspections were finished.



chicagofrog's Avatar
history *is* moralizing
Originally Posted by 2wrongs
ugh.
Did you look at the article I posted before you wrote this? Here's a good reason to go to war:

Freedom.
yep, did you look at all the other articles above in this thread?
nobody with some brains believe the reason to go to war was/is to free countries!!!!!! are only Yanks so naive nowadays?
if so, free Tibet and the Karens and the Ouigours and the Tchetchens!