When is it okay to race/gender swap a movie role?

the thing that always drives me insane about this topic is people always cry about 'tokenism' but never about all the whitewashing done in cinema. kind of a double standard if you ask me.

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letterboxd

I think people care about the whitewashing in Hollywood, I really think so. Like Affleck playing Latino descendant Tony Mendez or the Doctor Strange example. There are hundreds of these. For me, even if the movie is really good (Argo), you keep a bad taste because of this situation. It takes away from the whole experience.

However, the way to counteract this issue is not by creating another problem. So, their solution seems to be doing the same but in reverse. Sorry, I don't want to see a black Hermione or a Latino Sue Storm. I prefer that movie makers stay with or keep the characters of the source material when this is available, mainstream and popular. Just imagine LOTR made in USA instead of New Zealand, I can see a lot of black Elves on screen, just for the political correctness thing.

I don't think that's what Captain Steel meant.

In the old days, there was indeed a lot of racism depicted in movies and other media [take the old black and white cartoons as example, in which the blacks and jews were always made fun of], but nowadays Hollywood seems to be catering more to SJWs and political correctness than anything else. Hence why you see dumb **** like 2 gay men on a colony ship about to colonize a planet [it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever] or the dumbfounding all female Ghostbusters cause... feminazies [specially of interest when you see the men on that movie portrayed as dumb rumbling idiots]

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yeah, i've never understood this reasoning. i don't get why people are so upset that they made an all female cast. like, calm down, it's females in cinema, it's black people that were white people in the old version... it's gonna be OK. the old versions still exist.

maybe it's less about 'catering to SJWs and PC culture" and more that the people making these movies want to see more diversity in their cast?

ah, so that's what this is about. i'm sorry but i really have a hard time taking people seriously when they use this word.

I feel like everyone here that’s upset about this actually wants to see women and minorities on the screen, but they seem annoyed at the way it’s being done; ie., when it feels like it’s being forced upon them, or ‘tokenism’ as it’s coined. My whole thing is, what would be your suggestions as to how filmmakers should go about making sure women and minorities actually get appropriate representation without it feeling forced? I mean, of course it’s going to feel like that – for decades, they were pushed out of the picture, so their presence in these ways we aren’t used to is bound to feel a little weird (especially for bigots )

Since we’re talking about Ghostbusters, and since i'm a woman, I’ll use that as an example. i’ve seen many people say they shouldn’t have remade the classic with females because it “ruins it” or whatever, and I think that’s just as ridiculous. How does the remake “ruin” the original? If you had it on your dvd shelf, it’s still there – the remake didn’t replace it for god’s sakes. It’s a new spin on it. If you don’t wanna see it, don’t? but is there really something so harmful in its mere existence? That’s the vibe I’ve been getting from everyone criticizing, and i don't get it. i want to see representation, myself. i've been wanting it since i was a little girl growing up watching (and loving) the original Ghostbusters, and The Goonies, and Lord of the Rings, etc - all male ensemble cast, all about male friendships. there are so few female oriented films like this.

The reasoning is simple: They do it because of sub-cultural and social politics contempt. Nothing else. There's no valid reason why you'd take a classic movie such as, let's say, Citizen Kane and turn all the protagonists into females. Would that make any sense? It wouldn't. Same thing with Ghosbusters. The message is pretty explicit in that movie: Women are better than Men and Men are either rumbling idiots or toyboys.


It's ok. I have a very hard time taking the SJW neo-femist sub-cultural pseudo "thing" seriously as well. Neither should anyone with a grain of good ol' common sense.

lol, maybe not EVERY character in Citizen Kane, but hey, it's not like you couldn't do a Citizen Kane type story with a female lead. the movie would still work, no?

yeah, the difference being, this sjw isn't using gross words like 'snowflake' to describe people who you agree with, or throwing out rude phrases like "lol@ your fragile male ego" to make my points. i can, though, if that's what we're doing i guess

This could turn into a serious [not so friendly] debate.

But, first of all, allow me to set my own rules clear. There are some things I WILL NOT touch upon [because a) they belong to a movement in a country that is not my own, therefore who the hell am I to speak about it and b) because I feel them as non-sequiturs, or - at the very least - useless entrapment]

My only interest on this matter resides on how it is viewed upon by others and how it is inferred.

That said, here are a few questions:

1 - What is the point of changing established story lines to fit a present day sub-culture [ex: changing a male cast to an all female cast] instead of creating a story line with those concepts as the get.go [ie, an original movie showcasing women, as per example] if not to explicitly showcase the makers social politics in that matter?

2 - What is your definition of "appropriate" when it comes to "minorities" and how do you define "minorities"?

[quote=ash_is_the_gal;1660843]But the question is "why would you"?

If someone were to redo Citizen Kane showcasing an all female line with Esquimoes thrown into the mix [I'll use it as a blatant minority] it would neither be a new movie, nor would it even be devoid of a political sub-cultural weight that - in all honesty - as no real wight at all. Instead it would be rubbing the casual viewer's face with a message that the casual viewer would take as inflammatory just for the sake of being inflammatory.

Ok, so you see yourself as an SJW. So the question is, why?

This...

I insist, stay with the source material, when it is popular and well known. I think that even maintaining the source material you can do something to enhance the minority roles, like Jackson did in LOTR, with Arween and Eowyn. It didn't detract from the movie. But having Eowing riding the horse hitting the spears of the Rohan riders with her sword would have been ridiculous.

Now, new material, that's the way to go. In these days there are lots of them for minorities. Keep the classic untouched and create new ones. It is not our fault the way the world was when they were written or thought.

Imagine the poster here or other minorities reaction to a man being the protagonist of the future remake of Hunger Games or Insurgent. What about The Boy with the Dragon Tattoo. What would they say about a Buffy, the Vampire Slayer remake where Buffy is a buff high school blond guy. The response here in this forum will be, that's OK for me, but in the real world it will be a chaos, I'm pretty sure of it.

if you aren't going to respond to my stuff, then i guess i'll write less cause i aint interested in a cherry picking debate.

why can't the point just be "because we wanted to." why does this require established reasons in order to be OK with you? it sounds like you just don't like it. OK, fine, i don't like onions so i just ask the cashier at Mcdonalds to give me a double cheeseburger without them and move on with my life.

but is it actively harming you or anyone, for that matter?

when i say appropriate i'm talking about appropriate representation. we've all seemed to agree that women and minorities [non-whites, that, btw], have been grossly under represented in the media. i just gave you examples in my last response, where i listed all the male ensemble casted movies i grew up loving, but at the same time wishing there were more female oriented films like that. i remember practically shtting my pants in excitement when Now and Then came out in the 90s, cause it was like a female Stand By Me. and that's pretty much the only movie, off the top of my head that i can remember like that from when i was a kid.

now, i'm white, so i can't speak for people of color on this one, but i imagine it's the same feeling for them, with for example, Annie.

Did you see what those idiots at Marvel did with Iron Man?

So now Iron Man is a black chick... how in all hell does that make sense?

It's pure SJW catering. Im not an Iron Man reader [I could never put my hands on one of his comics to begin with] but what sense does it make to change a character you just show cased in Cinema into not only his female counterpart but his ethnicity as well? Why? Why would anyone in the full capacity of their sanity do that?

I understand why the long time readers of that particular character [or Thor] made so much noise about it. It's a character they read and grew up with. They know him as Tony Stark. Why change him to a black chick without rhyme nor reason other then to cater for blacks and SJWs? It's nonsensical. And it created a huge backlash at Marvel [their comics are down in the bottom of the barrel].

When I say that this could turn into a not so friendly debate, I mean that due to the obvious sensibility of the matter at hand that some people seem to have.

We never discussed a topic before, and by the way you demonstrated having some personal attachment to the matter at hand, I should fore warn you that I do it for purely intellectual reasons, having no personal stakes at all [this matter is non-present in my country, and even if it were present, it is my duty to look at things with a distance and treat them as intellectual source material]

Ànd I'm all about debating to the most minute detail possible.

It's not about liking or. It has to do with pure common sense.

I grew up watching the Ghostbusters movies and cartoons, just as much as I grew watching a plethora of other things.

What sense would it make to change an already established story just because "we wanted to"? Well I want many things, but if they don't make sense I just to do anything to do them.

I'm perfectly fine with new stuff popping up. If you want an all female cast, why not? But changing an already set movie just to please some people is mind boggling. And it rubs the viewer the wrong way [it is also a clear sign of no imagination left]

See, here's where I have to ask [with no other intentions underlying]:

How come you call "minorities" to blacks or those that come from Latino countries, when the USA is made at its genesis of emigrants?

From a person looking in - in this case, me - it's senseless. I know you have more white people than black and all that, but if they are a part of the society as it is structured.

Just adapt a book if you cannot come up with a story.

Some other examples and for me it's worked out well:

Riverdale - Josie and the Pussycats are all African-American as opposed to the one member (Valerie) and Reggie Mantle is Asian-American. I like the show so far so I don't have an issue.

The King of Fighters - the movie version had Sean Faris play Kyo Kusanagi, but the filmmakers made it clear that in the movie version, Kyo was "half-Japanese, half-American". I didn't like the movie per se, but it made its point. in implying that Kyo Kusanagi in the film was Asian-American.

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It's All About the Movies
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i just don't like if it feel push and fill with the agenda. i mean if they pick elba as new bond then that's because he's idris elba not because he's black

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The Force Awakens annoyed me because the diversity angle seemed so shoe horned. Hero is a kick ass chick (I have no problems with that aspect as such) who suddenly and magically becomes a jedi, unlike the original character, Luke, who broke his butt in training. To make kick ass chick look even more kick ass, rather than just have her fight the good fight, they make her an aloof biatch who is so fiercely independent she'd freeze hell with just a look, and she's partnered with a whiney, sobbing, powerless guy, who also hppens to be black. Then there was the rich white kid = evil bastard.

I dunno. Kinda gave me the vibe they were creating this sjw -v- mra message and if I had kids that's not the role models I'd want for them.

Anyway, I think ash asked how it should be done to spread the roles around and embrace diversity - start with the writing. I'm all for diversity. Bring it on, I'll embrace it nd, dance down the street with it. But my example of Kublai Khan? In this dy and age? That's just ridiculous. I mean, are asian american actors charging too much and they simply couldnt afford one? Same with johnny depp as tonto after Cap explained it. If there is such a thing as Oscar bait, there is also such a thing as numbers bait. Shove in a well known actor to bring in the crowd. Angelina Jolie in a Mighty Heart as pointed out above. I liked her in that role and I seem to vaguely recall Pearl requested her, but I dont know how true that is because I've been told authors get no say in casting.

I think it's a bit more like this.

People started clamouring for a blck bond, then that got swept up on the net with scream sof Idris Idris Idris (I might have done some screaming myself. He'd be a great Bond). But then a rumour started circulating that there was going to be a female Bond, and all of a sudden Gillian Anderson ws Oh yeah, next Bond. Just create a new character. The constant reboots rather than writing original material are getting a bit stale, to be honest.

You can read tMarvels' official statement here:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...sh-ancient-one

Thanks champ.

I call BS on that. They could have just made the character a shaolin monk, male or female. The statement alone is enough to piss off the chinese government. Nup, not buying it. I think whoever that person's publicity agent is who suggested that comment needs to be sacked. Bloody hell, I would have just said something like this - Tilda was available and the casting agents love her so we decided to use her for the character...that is all.