The Iceman

Roy got killed in 1983 while Castellano was killed in 1985, Paul ordered Roys death and he was killed by the Gemini twins even though Kuklinski claimed he did this too. Roy had nothing to do with Pauls murdeer since he was dead, neither did Kuklinski. Sammy Gravano who was there and helped plan it testified that the shooters were John Carneglia,Eddie Lino,Sal Scala and Vincent Artuso. So god knows were you got that known fact from.

You are misinformed. Paul didn't order Roy's death, Anthony Gaggi did, as Roy was about to testify against him. The question is: did the Gemini Twins get him or did Kuklinski?
In 1980, Kuklinski was also working for Sammy The Bull Gravano, where he was envolved in the killing of an NYPD detective by the name of Peter Calabro. He admitted to killing the guy and was convicted of it.
Gravano cut a deal with the feds and gave them John Gotti and he got immunity and walked,but subsequently violated his conditions of parole and started dealing ecstacy in Arizona. His parole was revoked and prior charges were opened aganst him, one of which was the Calabro killing. Kuklinski was in jail doing time and was supposed to testify and he died a mysterios death prior to testifying. For days he was telling people that he was being poisoned.
Gravano was really tight with Kuklinski. That was his trump card against Demeo early on.
There were 7 guys present at the Castelano liquidation:
Gotti, watching in a seperate car and the four shooters were:
Gravano, Kuklinski, Carneglia and Sal Scala, in their car. Eddie Lino and Vincent Artuso were a back-up in a third car.
Anthony Bruno wrote a book about Kuklinski 13 years before Philip Carlo but some of the stuff he said was also questionable even though Phillip Carlo was quick to jump on it and try to use it.
One thing is a given, no matter what you read, don't believe erverything you read. Maybe you'll get lucky and actualy meet someone that was envolved but if they were to tell you everytning they know, both you and them probably wouldn't be too long for this world.
If you know anything about La Cosa Nostra and Omerta you should ask yourself just one question: why is Jerry Capeci still alive. Perhaps he didn't spill all the beans, perhaps he spilled most of them afterthefact when they didn't matter any more and perhaps he was allowed access with the understanding as to how far he could go. Anything else is just a matter of public record and we all know that isn't always 100% accurate.

Sorry i don't know how to quote it piece by piece so i'll have to copy and paste it lol.

You are misinformed. Paul didn't order Roy's death, Anthony Gaggi did, as Roy was about to testify against him. The question is: did the Gemini Twins get him or did Kuklinski?

Can you please tell me where you heard Roy was going to testify against Gaggi? He was killed because Nino and Paul thought he may of became an informant. No law enforcment officials have ever aknowledged that Roy had flipped before he died. Neither does any of the 2 books written about him the one by his son or Murder Machine by Jerry Capeci who you yourself said wasn't a bullshitter. Funnily enough Kuklinski is mentioned in neither of these books as he didn't work with DeMeo at all. So i think your the one misinformed on this.

Gravano cut a deal with the feds and gave them John Gotti and he got immunity and walked,but subsequently violated his conditions of parole and started dealing ecstacy in Arizona. His parole was revoked and prior charges were opened aganst him, one of which was the Calabro killing. Kuklinski was in jail doing time and was supposed to testify and he died a mysterios death prior to testifying. For days he was telling people that he was being poisoned.
Gravano was really tight with Kuklinski. That was his trump card against Demeo early on.
There were 7 guys present at the Castelano liquidation:
Gotti, watching in a seperate car and the four shooters were:
Gravano, Kuklinski, Carneglia and Sal Scala, in their car. Eddie Lino and Vincent Artuso were a back-up in a third car.

This is so wrong i don't even know where to start. First i have to ask are you getting your information from wikipedia or Carlo's book? Can you post a link where your reading this stuff please? Here's an article explaining what actually happened - http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/04/ny...ellano.html.Mr. Gravano said he and Mr. Gotti waited together in a nearby car while several of their associates gunned down Mr. Castellano, the boss of their crime family, and his close aide, Thomas Bilotti, on an East Side street on Dec. 16, 1985. 'A Backup Shooter'

Mr. Gravano said he sat beside Mr. Gotti, who drove a Lincoln sedan with tinted windows to the northwest corner of Third Avenue and 46th Street. He described himself as "a back-up shooter."

"We were sitting at this scene," he told a Federal jury in Brooklyn. "We were looking down at Sparks Steak House." - Sammy was in the car with Gotti he wasn't a shooter Kuklinski wasn't even there. Here's an article of Capeci talking about the hit - http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...rneglia&st=cse This is what he has to say about Kuklinski -Thanks for the nice words about my work. Richard (the Iceman) Kuklinski was not mentioned in “Murder Machine,” a book that Gene Mustain and I wrote, because it’s doubtful that he ever met Roy DeMeo, let alone killed him. Mr. DeMeo was a feared Gambino family soldier whose crew is believed to have killed 75 people in the 1970s and ’80s. According to Carlo, Mr. Kuklinski, a 6-foot-5-inch, 300-pound bearded behemoth, was the Forrest Gump of mob hits, and took part in the three most spectacular Mafia rubouts in the last three decades. He claims the Iceman killed Paul Castellano, Carmine Galante and Jimmy Hoffa, along with Roy DeMeo and about 200 others. C’mon, do you believe that? I don’t know anyone who believes that. No one.

Anthony Bruno wrote a book about Kuklinski 13 years before Philip Carlo but some of the stuff he said was also questionable even though Phillip Carlo was quick to jump on it and try to use it.
One thing is a given, no matter what you read, don't believe erverything you read. Maybe you'll get lucky and actualy meet someone that was envolved but if they were to tell you everytning they know, both you and them probably wouldn't be too long for this world.
If you know anything about La Cosa Nostra and Omerta you should ask yourself just one question: why is Jerry Capeci still alive. Perhaps he didn't spill all the beans, perhaps he spilled most of them afterthefact when they didn't matter any more and perhaps he was allowed access with the understanding as to how far he could go. Anything else is just a matter of public record and we all know that isn't always 100% accurate.

I completely agree with all of this, most stuff i read on the mob i take with a grain of salt. The most accurate source on Organized Crime has always been the FBI, who generally agree that Kuklinski was full of **** . He was certainly a serial killer and probably had connections to OC, most likely the Decalvacante family of New Jersey which i believe he probably performed a few hits for. But the amount of ridiculous claims that came from Carlo and him, especially on solved cases like the Galante and Castellano hits of which he had nothing at all to do with keeps me from taking him seriously on anything.

I'll leave you with a parting thought.
According to former Luchese Family Acting Boss Anthony Casso, Gambino Family Crime Boss, Paul Castelano gave him the contract to kill Roy De Meo. First of all bosses don't give each other contracts. Secondly, when a boss gives a contract it will go to a member of his own family (or he can use an outsider that has no real affiliation with any family ).
So, here's a Luchese boss using a Gambino crew (Senter And Testa ) to kill their own Gambino crew leader ( De Meo ).
So after, the killing, Senter and Testa just leave the Gambino's and move over to the Lucheses and all this on the order of Paul Castelano.
What a bunch of crock. It doesn't work that way.
Gaggi used Kuklinski to do the job. Senter and Testa left the Gambinos and went over to the Lucheses for protection, knowing that they would be next. End of story and end of discussion. I'm getting a headache.

Gaggi used Kuklinski to do the job. Senter and Testa left the Gambinos and went over to the Lucheses for protection, knowing that they would be next. End of story and end of discussion. I'm getting a headache.

Since your getting a headache you don't need to respond but i think it's quite ridiculous to throw this statement out with nothing at all to back it up.No law enforcment official would agree with this it's an accepted fact that DeMeo was killed by his own crew (which Kuklinski wasn't a part of).

]I'll leave you with a parting thought.
According to former Luchese Family Acting Boss Anthony Casso, Gambino Family Crime Boss, Paul Castelano gave him the contract to kill Roy De Meo. First of all bosses don't give each other contracts. Secondly, when a boss gives a contract it will go to a member of his own family (or he can use an outsider that has no real affiliation with any family ).
So, here's a Luchese boss using a Gambino crew (Senter And Testa ) to kill their own Gambino crew leader ( De Meo ).
So after, the killing, Senter and Testa just leave the Gambino's and move over to the Lucheses and all this on the order of Paul Castelano.
What a bunch of crock. It doesn't work that way.

When DeMeo was killed Casso was only a soldier he'd later become Underboss in 1986 then acting boss in 1991 8 years after DeMeo's death. So it wasn't a boss giving a boss a contract. Plenty of families have killed for other families it was especially common for the Lucchesse's to do this because they had a bunch of known killers. Casso himself would later have the mafia cops kill Eddie Lino as a favour to Genovese boss Vincent Gigante. Also Testa and Senter were always associates of the Gambino's and Lucchesse's they moved to the Luccheses because the Demeo crew had fell apart with Roys death and there was nothing left for them at the Gambinos three seperate informants have testified to this.

Yes, I know, the Luchese boss at the time was Anthony Corallo and he was good friends with Vincent Gigante but not Paul Castelano.
At the time Casso was just a soldier in the Luchese family and certainly would not get a direct contract from the boss of another family ( Paul Castelano ). Castelano would first have had to talk with Corralo ( certainly not give him a contract ) and then Corallo would give the order to one of his capos, who would then relegate it to a soldier (Casso). Casso would do the hit himself. He certainly wouldn't go to members of another crew, Testa and Senter, to whack their own crew chief, whom they were extremely tight with. These guys were a wolf pack and they did everything together. They wouldn't just turn on their leader, unless their own lives were threatened and even then they would probably go down fighting.
As De Meo was a Gambino family member, the matter would have been handled internaly because anytime a made member was killed off by another faction it created too much disatisfaction among local troops, which often led to war between the families.
Besides, Paul made De Meo. He didn't like the violence but he appreciated De Meo for the top earner that he was. Gaggi was the one that was being looked at and had everything to lose if De Meo testified against him, so he had him killed to ensure his silence.
Later Casso became underboss under Amuso and eventualy turned snitch, so I wouldn't give two cents for anything he had to say about De Meo's death.
And, of course, there is another snitch - Sammy Gravano, who also lied his ass off and tailored situations that would be favorable to him.
Of course, he wasn't about to publicly incriminate himself as being one of the shooters of Paul Castelano. By just appearing to be an observer of the event made it more possible for him to cut a deal. He never implicated Kuklinski as Kuklinski was his go to guy when he wanted things done on the sly. De Meo also went to Kuklinski alone. That was his leverage against his own crew, should things go wrong.
In the old days a hit on a boss, even an internal matter, was usually sanctioned by the members of the commission ( other bosses ).
The hit on Castelano was not sanctioned. Gotti just ran with it and violated the code and thus earned enmity with Corallo and Gigante.

Yes, I know, the Luchese boss at the time was Anthony Corallo and he was good friends with Vincent Gigante but not Paul Castelano.
At the time Casso was just a soldier in the Luchese family and certainly would not get a direct contract from the boss of another family ( Paul Castelano ). Castelano would first have had to talk with Corralo ( certainly not give him a contract ) and then Corallo would give the order to one of his capos, who would then relegate it to a soldier (Casso). Casso would do the hit himself. He certainly wouldn't go to members of another crew, Testa and Senter, to whack their own crew chief, whom they were extremely tight with. These guys were a wolf pack and they did everything together. They wouldn't just turn on their leader, unless their own lives were threatened and even then they would probably go down fighting.

[b]Paul and Nino were giving the contract to everyone, fact is Roy was etrememely tough to get since he'd been getting more and more paranoid. Numerous informants have aknowledged either themselves or another crew getting the contract including the Gotti crew. In the end the Gemini twins were the only ones to get to him. They did it because they were also paranoid that he was going to inform as well.

By the way could you go back and address the points i brought up in my comment with the articles from Capeci. Cos you ignored everything i had to say by saying you had a headache then changed the subject./B]

As De Meo was a Gambino family member, the matter would have been handled internaly because anytime a made member was killed off by another faction it created too much disatisfaction among local troops, which often led to war between the families.
Besides, Paul made De Meo. He didn't like the violence but he appreciated De Meo for the top earner that he was. Gaggi was the one that was being looked at and had everything to lose if De Meo testified against him, so he had him killed to ensure his silence.

Where do you get this stuff? Firstly tell me of an occasion when a made member was killed off by another faction it created too much disatisfaction among local troops, which often led to war between the families this happened. Only once has seperate families went to war back in the 1930's the Castellamaresse war. Stop throwing out these random comments as if they're fact. Second wrong about DeMeo, it's well known Paul hated him he only made him 2 years before his death because Nino his closest capo had been asking him for years. Read murder machine and you'll see the investigation was after Paul above Nino, you'll also see that Roy hadn't flipped which i can't believe your still saying. Even in your own comment earlier that i think was took from wikipedia, you said Paul was being charged with being the boss of the DeMeo crew. Also if Nino wanted Roy dead do you not think he'd need permission from Paul?

Besides, Paul made De Meo. He didn't like the violence but he appreciated De Meo for the top earner that he was. Gaggi was the one that was being looked at and had everything to lose if De Meo testified against him, so he had him killed to ensure his silence.
Later Casso became underboss under Amuso and eventualy turned snitch, so I wouldn't give two cents for anything he had to say about De Meo's death.
And, of course, there is another snitch - Sammy Gravano, who also lied his ass off and tailored situations that would be favorable to him.
Of course, he wasn't about to publicly incriminate himself as being one of the shooters of Paul Castelano. By just appearing to be an observer of the event made it more possible for him to cut a deal. He never implicated Kuklinski as Kuklinski was his go to guy when he wanted things done on the sly. De Meo also went to Kuklinski alone. That was his leverage against his own crew, should things go wrong.
In the old days a hit on a boss, even an internal matter, was usually sanctioned by the members of the commission ( other bosses ).
The hit on Castelano was not sanctioned. Gotti just ran with it and violated the code and thus earned enmity with Corallo and Gigante.

The point on Gravano is laughable since he implicated himself as the shooter on multiple murders, not to mention he would've been charged with murder whether he was the shooter or if he arranged it , he was getting the deal no matter what he said. By the way i'm still waiting for the link this They did their thing but when Roy wanted someone from the outside that wasn't connected to him, he used Kuklinski.
One of the sources is Jerry Capeci and he is no bullshitter. Even though i provided a link where Capeci essentially called Kuklinski a bullshitter which you didn't respond to you claimed he was a source for Kukllinski. Kuklinski as Kuklinski was his go to guy when he wanted things done on the sly. De Meo also went to Kuklinski alone. That was his leverage against his own crew, should things go wrong. Show me something that proves this, you keep throwing these comments out that onlly Phillip Carlo would agree with. Dominick Montiglio and Freddie DiNome both said the Gemini twins killed DeMeo they weren't charged with it because they'd already been sent away for life and it would've been pointless. Law enforccement have closed the case and accepted The Gemini twins killed him so have all the respected mob writers. Law Enforcement never took Kuklinsk's claim serious there's also no proof he'd ever met Roy not from any the 2 Gemini crew informants. So what do you base this on?

First of all, I never said that Roy flipped. I just said that Nino (Gaggi) did not want him around to testify. Nino was the one with the charges. Sure, he would need Paul's permission to kill De Meo but Roy was making too much money for the outfit and Paul would not have given it, so Nino used Kuklinski.
You act like you know something because you have some information from snitches and informants and because you read Murder Machine. I read that too and Sins Of My Father but most probably, unlike you, I happen to know some made guys. The word on Kuklinski is that he is for real and that both De Meo and Gravano used him when they needed an outside contractor. And, yes, law enforcement has corraborated many of his killings. Whether you believe this or not, I really don't care. Just don't ask me for source dog tags.
They've assembled a pretty good cast for this movie and from what I hear it will be pretty good. Whether or not you believe that it's based on real facts doesn't really matter.
The fact is that the Iceman was killing people for over twenty years successfully and one of the reasons was that not every John, Dick or Harry knew his business.
What's funny is that now there are guys like you who say that Kuklinski made it all up.

First of all, I never said that Roy flipped. I just said that Nino (Gaggi) did not want him around to testify. Nino was the one with the charges. Sure, he would need Paul's permission to kill De Meo but Roy was making too much money for the outfit and Paul would not have given it, so Nino used Kuklinski.

This is what you said which i think heavily implies Roy flipping - You are misinformed. Paul didn't order Roy's death, Anthony Gaggi did, as Roy was about to testify against him. I apoligize if i've read that wrong but i really can't see how ii have. Dominick Montiglio,Sammy Gravano, Anthony Casso, Freddie DiNome and law enforcement have said Paul ordered it if you disagree with all of them then i really don't know what to say to you. This line -Roy was making too much money for the outfit and Paul would not have given it, so Nino used Kuklinski. Is based on absolutely nothing.

You act like you know something because you have some information from snitches and informants and because you read Murder Machine. I read that too and Sins Of My Father but most probably, unlike you, I happen to know some made guys. The word on Kuklinski is that he is for real and that both De Meo and Gravano used him when they needed an outside contractor. And, yes, law enforcement has corraborated many of his killings. Whether you believe this or not, I really don't care. Just don't ask me for source dog tags.

I take my information from the best sources Law enforcment, infformants who were actually there and esteemed mob writers non of whom agree with you. If you've read murder machine then you'd know it says Paul ordered the hit and the Gemini twins carried it out it also doesn't mention Kuklinski once. Law enforcment have corroborated many of his killings just none of the ones we're arguing about or which will be featured in the movie which have all been solved and didn't involve Kuklinski in any way. So your from LA and you know made guys that can confirm Kuklinski's supposed murders in NY 30 years ago? Fair enough, but you seem to disregard the foremost aurothities on these murders just to believe in the fantasy Phillip Carlo has spun. I actually blame Carlo more than Kuklinski for this bs. He's notorious for fantasy stories, Tommy Pitera was pissed at him for making up lies about him like he had a squeaky voice and got trained in martial arts in Japan. He also expllicitly described his murders and explained how Tommy felt at those moments even though he hadn't gave Carlo any of this information not to mention many of the facts contradicted what actually happened. I already knew that you weren't going to post any souces because there are none, so you resorted to bringing out your street knowledge that you got from made guys who seem to confirm everything Kuklinski said even though noone else agrees witth them.

Whether or not you believe that it's based on real facts doesn't really matter.
The fact is that the Iceman was killing people for over twenty years successfully and one of the reasons was that not every John, Dick or Harry knew his business.
What's funny is that now there are guys like you who say that Kuklinski made it all up.

I believe there will be some facts just not in his relationship to DeMeo as he had none. I didn't say he'd made it all up he was certainly a serial killer who possibly commited a few hits for the Decalvacante family, which i've already said in a previous comment. The parts i know are bs are his claims to having killed Castellano, Galante, Hoffa and DeMeo. I'm pretty sure he killed the Archduke Franz Ferdinand as well

I grew up in Ozone Park, Queens and have been to the Ravenite Social Club on numerous occassions.
You keep bringing up Carmine Galante. I don't remember ever hearing that Kuklinski had anything to do with him.
I guess you missed my sarcasm on Jerry Capeci.
Yeah, Jerry said that he doubted that Kuklinski ever met Roy De Meo but there is a dozen guys that can vouch Kuklinski bringing some guns to Roy at the Gemini on at least one occassion.
There is also no doubt that Kuklinski killed Peter Callabro on behalf of Sammy Gravano (Gambino Family). He did get convicted for that killing.
As to Jimmy Hoffa, can you prove that Kuklinski didn't do it?

I grew up in Ozone Park, Queens and have been to the Ravenite Social Club on numerous occassions.

Fair enough. But the fact that you obtained information from made guys regarding Kuklinski sees to contradict this e\arlier statement you ade - Maybe you'll get lucky and actualy meet someone that was envolved but if they were to tell you everytning they know, both you and them probably wouldn't be too long for this world. So aren't you in immediate danger?


You keep bringing up Carmine Galante. I don't remember ever hearing that Kuklinski had anything to do with him.

Read Carlo's book Galante is one of thee many Kuklinski claimed to kill, even though numourous Bonnano informants as well as law enforcment have said the shooters were Dominick 'Sonny Black' Napolitano, Anthony ' Bruno ' Indelicato, and Dominick ' Big Trin ' Trinchera. Among those who've confirmed this are Joseph ' Donnie Brasco ' Pistone the FBI agent who infiltrated the Bonnanos and former Bonnano boss and the guy who actually ordered it Joseph Massino. Funnily enough neither of the menttion Kuklinski. Another Carlo/Kuklinski lie.

I guess you missed my sarcasm on Jerry Capeci.

I clearly have as i don't know what comment this is referring to?

There is also no doubt that Kuklinski killed Peter Callabro on behalf of Sammy Gravano (Gambino Family). He did get convicted for that killing.

I never disputed this. I just pointed out that he definitely didn't kill Castellano, DeMeo or \Galante.

As to Jimmy Hoffa, can you prove that Kuklinski didn't do it?

Please tell me you don't believe he did? Of course i can't prove he didn't, but it's ridiculous to actually believe Kuklinski was also doing hits for the Detroit ob in the 70s. The most accepted acount (infinitely more likely than any Kuklinski involvment that yet again noone except Carlo, Kuklinski and apparently you believe) is it was Frank Sheeran you should read They paint houses don't they an amazing book about the Hoffa dissapearance. Here's an article summarizing some of it - http://hoffasolved.com/ Btw i give no credit to the ssites conclusion that it's been solved i just think it's the most like scenario. I also think it's laughable that you ask me for proof when you don't back up any of the ridiculous claims you've made the majority of which contradict what actually happened.

Yeah, Jerry said that he doubted that Kuklinski ever met Roy De Meo

Then why did you claim he was a source who'd vouch for Kuklinski?

Are you really that naive? SARCASM

I don't really think Jerry could vouch for anyone.

Last few points and then I'll let Don Corleone sort you out.

Your beef is apparently with Phillip Carlo.
Kuklinski never claimed that he did Carmine Galante.

Neither Testa nor Senter ever admitted to any one that they did De Meo.

You base all your information on heresay from a bunch snitches who all made deals with the prosecution, including Dominick Montiglio, who was so high on cocaine at the time that he literaly did not know if he was coming or going and Jerry Capeci cashed in on that.

Kuklinski is not here to offer any rebutals but there is no doubt that he knew both Roy De Meo and Sammy Gravano.
Ironicaly, he killed the one and died at the hands of the other.

Time to change your avatar; you are clearly on the losing side.

I don't really think Jerry could vouch for anyone.

Capeci gets his information from the FBI and active mob infomants this has been confirmed by the FBI. He could do a better job of vouching than you are of vouching for Kuklinski.

Your beef is apparently with Phillip Carlo.
Kuklinski never claimed that he did Carmine Galante.

Wrong. Carlos book is derived from interviews with Kuklinski. And if you accept Carlo's book is bs then you accept he didn't kill Castellano or DeMeo as this is the only place these claims have appeared.

Neither Testa nor Senter ever admitted to any one that they did De Meo.

You base all your information on heresay from a bunch snitches who all made deals with the prosecution, including Dominick Montiglio, who was so high on cocaine at the time that he literaly did not know if he was coming or going and Jerry Capeci cashed in on that.

I base my claim on 4 seperate mob informants accounts you base yours on nothing, i mean it must've been a might coincedence that they all agreed. It's also hilarious that you bring Capeci's credibility into question when you base your information on wikipedia and Carlos book . I also base my information on law enforcement who accept Senter and Testa did it and Kuklinski had absolutely nothing to do with it. It seems we're backpeddaling since you initially tried to use Caapeci as a source for Kuklinski then suddenly after you noticed Jerry didn't agree he's now full of **** . I would be naive if i'd believed that comment was sarcasm.

Kuklinski is not here to offer any rebutals but there is no doubt that he knew both Roy De Meo and Sammy Gravano.
Ironicaly, he killed the one and died at the hands of the other.

So you believe Kuklinski was poisoned more wikipedia bs. I'm not even going to ask you about any evidence of Kuklinski being involved with DeMeo because there's absolutely nothing.

Time to change your avatar; you are clearly on the losing side.

I'm on the losing side throughout this thread i've made numurous points showing the facts regarding Kuklinski most you've convienently ignored while you've just made ridiculous claims the majority being completely false with nothing to back them up other than wikipedia.

Preferisco mangare pesce Sollozzo!

dormire con pesce sollozzo!:d

I like that because i have a Sollozo avatar and you have a Brando one your somehow right . If i change mine to a Martin Sheen avatar does that make me right since he killed Brando in Apocalypse Now?

Quick thinking! but Martin Sheen does not come close to Brando!

I think that's the only thing we'll agree on