Better Call Saul...whatcha think?

I think, knowing Gilligan that he won't reprise Walt and Jesse in full roles, but is more likely to have an "Easter Egg" type situation where they go past in a car / the winnebago or something and it's up to us viewers to spot it. I think that's more Gilligan' style.

But I expect we'll see more characters like Hank / skinny Pete for a number of episodes. He knows it's what the people want!

It's all mindless speculation though. But good fun

Good analysis.
"Just be who you are" -> just prove how little did Chuck understand his brother.

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Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!

I need the computer to type my reply. It may be lengthy! (aka I has srs Chuck issues, phone cannot deal. )

I would have to rewatch BB to be sure, but I am almost positive I disagree with this assessment. You have to remember we are seeing Jimmy' s arc in reverse. He is full blown criminal in BB and helps continue Walt down his path. Walt had a conscious too before he became Heisenberg. It's part of the reason I love this show, but we are seeing a character that I don't think anyone envisioned while watching Saul in BB.

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Mike: "I resent that."

Thanks. And therein lies the tragedy: Jimmy DOES have the capacity to be better and probably would have if only Chuck had accepted him in life. In a way, Chuck helped create Saul Goodman. He made Jimmy feel like he could never be anything more and Jimmy is finally going to give in and be the man that Chuck perceives him to be. In a strange way, I could see Jimmy reasoning this as something almost "honoring" Chuck's death by becoming what Chuck perceives him to be.

It's quite intriguing: Jimmy and Chuck crafted Saul Goodman together.

Jimmy is DEFINITELY the type to say one day: "This is what Chuck wanted me to be...and I'm going to do just that." It would explain why he lays on the sleaze ten times as strongly with his Saul Goodman person as opposed to his "S'all good, man" persona--he decides to say "You know what, Chuck? You win--I'll do what you wanted to do."

It will be his "eulogy" to his brother: becoming the only thing that Chuck ever saw in him.

It's really quite sad--Jimmy really did try and, with Chuck's help, he may have avoided his dark path in life. Chuck's approval mattered more to him than anyone--even more than Kim's approval.

For all the jealousy that Chuck harbored for Jimmy it was JIMMY who was jealous of CHUCK. He aspired to be a great lawyer like Chuck. I guess the failures of their father caused Jimmy to imprint onto Chuck as his "true" father figure because that's EXACTLY what Jimmy acts like: a son desperately trying to make "ol' dad" proud.

Jimmy doesn't care for weak people. The fact that he looked up to and respected Chuck so much shows how strong that Chuck was in his eyes.

With every interaction, you can see how fragile Jimmy is while in the presence of Chuck. Chuck is literally holding Jimmy's conscience in his hands and toying with it. With Chuck gone, Jimmy will be lost. Jimmy ALWAYS looks like a lost, frightened kid while in Chuck's presence. Vulnerable. Looking for help--anything. Jimmy depended on Chuck just as much as Chuck depended on him. Losing Chuck with cause Jimmy to lose his direction in life--to lose his "home base"--his safe zone. He relied on Chuck to be his voice of reason, even if he didn't follow his advice. He just needed to hear Chuck's rationale. Without that, Jimmy will have nowhere to go.

The stage is set and we're going to see Saul Goodman, attorney at law, next season. I have no doubt about it at this point.

Go easy on Chuck, Cat. Don't "burn" him too much.

I'm not sure I understand your disagreement. I was merely stating that it's been a recurring character trait for Jimmy where he does the right thing and gets burned for it every time and how he'll eventually realize that doing the right thing won't win him any favors.

Unless we're misinterpreting each other's posts, I don't understand your disagreement on this point.

Yeah, I expect this next season to feel a little like that first half of season 5 in Breaking Bad did, where it was just Walt off the chain, going around acting like a super villain. Even finding all that abhorrent on a meta level, there was a sense of narrative liberation to it. It can be fun to watch in the moment, at least in-between the spasms of gradual tragedy.

Yes, I definitely see Jimmy's Saul transition going like that: an erratic roller coaster where he's attempting to find his "balance" and we'll see him being "Saul lite", "Saul over-extreme" and finall "Saul just right". He definitely won't just jump straight into Classic Saul. We'll see him getting his "sea legs" as he tries to strike a balance.

Like Walt, he needs to have his "Hit 11 guys in prison" moment that finally pushes him into "prime" mode. Given that Saul is better man than Walt, it will have to be something less extreme than a prison hit--maybe something else such as destroying HHM. Patrick Fabian, who plays Hamlin, hinted that Jimmy and Hamlin may clash in Season 4 as Jimmy will want to pin some of the blame of Chuck's death on Hamlin. His "breakout" moment could definitely involve somehow ruining Hamlin and his firm. I could see it. It's been a long time coming.

It feels like you're saying Jimmy remains more sympathetic because of his beginnings. Walt was a suburban dad saddled with cancer and couldn't have been a nicer guy. Feels like you think their arcs are polar opposites. I think they are more similar than you think.

You're actually already saying a lot FOR me!

I'll go easy if you say the safe word.

Might as well say that I disliked Skyler a LOT. Was never vocal about it, though. Chuck though, my boyfriend had to hear a few rants, huffs, and crows (when he started gettting HIS comeuppance). I LOVED hating Chuck. Many, many thanks to Michael McKean. Having performances get such strong reactions is a real credit to the actors, writers and directors.

Oh SORRY GUYS! Didn't mean to get changed into my Captain Obvious costume in public like that with no warning.

I never commented on getting through the season. The finale was pretty good, although a lot of the show overall feels like just waiting for stuff, that we already know of, to happen. Jimmy becoming Saul, Mike getting a prominent role, Gus being introduced, Mike meeting Gus, Salemanca ending up in a wheelchair, Chuck to disappear from Jimmys life eventually etc. The show has standalone episodes or moments that are truly great on their own, but a lot of the show's strength also comes from "oh, look I know who or what this is!" with references to BB.

What I like about the show is basically two things... I like the characters, most are well drawn and the acting talent all around is really great, just like BB. Same with the production quality - set pieces, direction, cinematography, editing - all that is basically top notch. I also really like the subtlety of the show. The show is full of little visual, aural or other "easter eggs" that really gives the show some nice refined depth. But the writing though, can go from perfect to mediocre though, but I have a hunch that Vince and co. are having a hard time creating Saul's story and I doubt they had the same amount of time to plan everything out like they did for at least most of BB. The show is made by people of talent, clearly, however they might be under pressure to deliver something and doing it fast - so fast that the storylines often feel a little jumbled, or mostly just drawn out a lot. These seasons are 5 episode stories extended to a full 10 episodes... at least that's how it feels to me.

The show doesn't run as smoothly as BB and though that show also had filler and the likes, Better Call Saul just jumps so much back and forth in quality for me. Some episodes are 10/10 masterpieces in writing, directing, acting etc. Others are so mediocre or underwhelming that I wonder how the hell they are part of the same show. Sometimes this show feels like "the emperor's new clothes"... I feel like I see something that a lot of people apparently don't. Or who knows, perhaps it's the other way around. Maybe there is stuff to this show that I'm the one not seeing. I know Yodes like this show a lot, and I don't doubt his intelligence even the slighest, so there must be something I just don't catch here. But of course, taste is always different, no matter the intellect. It might just not be for me.

It's a shame, because honestly I only keep watching because I like the characters a lot. Not all, but most of the really prominent ones. And of course the ones I already know. I want to see them. I want to see their great acting. I do admire and often love the technical side of the show and it's beautiful to watch. Well-made. But outside of this the show as a whole is "okay". It's fine, often pretty good, but I wouldn't call it a great show. It's so uneven. But again, I do have a feeling Vince and co. is under pressure. Maybe he was allowed to end BB after only 5 seasons because he promised a spin-off in the same universe. Perhaps he never really got to work on that idea much before he was forced to put out something. Maybe he really fights to come up with the story as he goes. I mean, he even said in an interview that "we have the beginning and we have the end, but we are missing the middle part. The journey to where we'll end up" something like that, I'm paraphrasing from my memory.

Anyways, I will probably keep watching for the reasons above, but sometimes I'm kind of on the verge of quitting the show. Maybe it'll really become great once we are really near the beginning of BB... But then again, I kind of liked season 2 more than 3, which shouldn't be the case I guess.

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While there are some similarities on a purely surface level regarding their arcs, they are quite different is you delve into them.

I'll explain:

On a surface level, these are two men who started off as "good guys" and broke bad out of tragedy (Cancer for Walt and losing his brother for Jimmy).

Now, let's delve deeper:

-Walt was crafted by Gilligan to be a man who was ALWAYS a monster deep down but had the beast caged via living a normal life. He was a slave to his own ego. He left Gretchen because of a sense of feeling inferior to her higher class family and it bruised his ego/sense of himself. He eventually "settled" for domestic life and grew bored of it over time. He dove into Heisenberg upon receiving his cancer diagnosis and finally felt free to let the beast out of the cage. He found his niche and a way to exercise his ego in the form of creating his meth empire. Of course, he started it as a necessity but quickly grew to love the thrill of it.

He was extended an olive branch by Elliot and Gretchen with the job offer but ultimately turned it down because he deemed their offer as "charity" and it hurt his ego. He wanted to leave his family a large sum of money after he died and wanted to be 100% responsible for it himself. In his endeavor, he became addicted to the thrill and liberation that came from being freed from his cage and it soon morphed into something more than just taking care of the family: feeding that ego of his. Being free. Being "the man", as Mike had told him.

The point here is that Walt had ALWAYS had the darkness within him and kept it repressed in life, essentially giving up on his hopes and dreams in order to settle for a normal married life. He lost his flare--his drive. The cancer gave it back--tenfold. Walt, in many ways, had a death wish. It's why he was upset about his cancer going into remission. He wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. He wanted to live free and die free.


-Jimmy is different. Yes, Jimmy always had his own darkness within him. The difference is this: Jimmy exercised it freely in his younger days. It wasn't driven by ego but rather by a sense of thrills. It was fun for him. It gave him a rush. He wasn't socially awkward like Walt and he wasn't looking to be "the best" in everything--rather, he was simply enjoying his cons and enjoyed the attention of people.

Jimmy locked his beast up, like Walt, but did so for some similar and some very different reasons:

1. He hated Chuck disapproving of him and wanted to prove he could be better.

2. He genuinely wanted to be a better man and Chuck's disappointment made him see that. This is evident when he's speaking with Marco in Season 1 and tells Marco that he, ultimately, made a change in life "for me". Chuck was the catalyst for that major life change but Jimmy wanted it not just to please Chuck but also to help himself.

This is where Walt and Jimmy fundamentally differ: Walt was driven by ego and his transition to normal suburban life was his way of giving up to a certain extent. With Jimmy it was an honest effort to make a change and be better than the darkness within him.

That's the difference--Heisenberg was a beast that was cultivated, fed and fattened up over years and years of repression, self-defeat and bruised ego. He was embittered over the Grey Matter fiasco and stewed in it for years. His pride kept him away from it.

Jimmy is different: he formulated "S'all good, man" years ago as a young man out of necessity and quickly grew to love the thrill of it (like Walt) but, later on, genuinely tried to cage that beast of his in an honest effort to do and be better. THAT is the difference between Jimmy and Walt: Jimmy tried to cage his beast and be a better man while Walt just caged his beast and made it grow out of a sense of hurt pride and self-defeat.

So, if anything, Jimmy was a criminal first, attempted to better himself, and then fell back into criminality again while Walt was a straight arrow at first and grew into a criminal over time with no desire to reform himself.

That's the difference. It IS a reversal here: Jimmy was a practicing criminal first, then tried to fly right, and fell back into it again. Walt was a law abiding man at first who grew into a criminal that was cultivated for years by his hurt pride and ego over Grey Matter as well as triggered by a cancer diagnosis.

Now for the change:

Upon receiving a cancer diagnosis, Walt was driven (at first) by desperation to leave his family money. It soon became about BOTH leaving his family money as well as making friends with his long-caged ego. He grew to love it. He admitted that at the end of the series.

Now onto Jimmy: Chuck's death is very likely Jimmy's "cancer diagnosis" but Jimmy has been strongly implied all series long (In Better Call Saul, that is) to dive into Saul Goodman out of a sense of feeling he has no other recourse--a sense of self-defeat.


This is the fundamental difference here:

Jimmy started bad, tried to be good, sunk back into bad again out of a sense of defeat / Walt started good, led a boring life as a chemistry teacher as a sense of defeat and broke bad out of necessity.


The other key difference is this:

-Jimmy is AWARE that he's doing bad things. He acknowledges it. Walt never once seemed to feel that way, nor did he ever apologize to anyone for hurting them.

I could go on and on but I think that's enough for now.

Hmmmm...what would Chuck's safe word be? I know: CHICANERY.

Who cares about his safe word?

I meant ours. :P

YEAH! Put it here fellow Skyler hater here as well. I can't stand her and her....Ugh...maybe I'd better not. The last time I went on a Skyler rant on another board I was accused of being a "misogynist".

They wanted to make a Wicker Man out of me that day, I'll tell you.

Yeah, @Dani8 may want to fight us.

PULL UP YOUR DUKES!

This was pretty much me after the last Skyler rant I had on another board years ago...they didn't go easy on me: