Re: Succession
 

I think when you really boil down the story of "Succession" into its essence, it's actually a show about trauma, and about the consequences of growing up with a father who inflicted so much trauma on you, who you still love, because he is your Dad, and who, despite the trauma he inflicted, still loves you, because you are his child. Logan is blind to the hurt he is inflicting, and the children are mostly too, but I think they become progressively more aware of how it impacts them and their behavior as the show progresses, and in that way, there is a little bit of change because a little more self-awareness peaks through. I think the lack of awareness of the impacts of that trauma, and the way failing to deal with it effectively plays out, is one of the main themes of the show, and each character responds to it in different ways using dysfunctional mechanisms to cope (drugs, bad relationships choices, the pursuit of power for its own sake rather than because of a reasonable end goal, trying in vain to win the love of someone who is not capable of providing it to you by continuing to strive for greater levels of achievement, the pursuit of money/status, and its symbols, rather than healthy relationships and true fulfillment, etc).

I think the children, in this last season, are beginning to realize how they've been impacted by that trauma, and that now that their Dad is gone, they are all grappling with the essential questions of, what does my life look like now? When the person I've spent my whole life trying to impress and win the attention and affection of is no longer there anymore, how do I go on? What does that mean for the company that he built? If this pursuit for love and affection from Dad is likely futile, both because Logan was never capable of it, and because he is now dead, so it is quite literally too late to ever receive it, should I continue with the company, and spiritually try to win my father's love from the grave (Kendall/Roman), or should I use this as a point of finality and start charting my own life course and accomplishing my own goals at another company, while honoring what I learned from Dad? (Shiv). And, who is the true heir that can carry on Dad's legacy? Will they ever be as good as Dad, and does that person actually want the job? Will that be soul destroying, or a way to in some way recover from the trauma by staying with the company, but maybe doing it a bit differently than dear old Dad did? Or, is it best to sell the company and let someone else take over and free myself from the chains I've been shackled to and bound by my entire life? Beginning to slowly realize how much trauma they suffered at the hands of their Dad also causes them to be ambivalent about him after he passes, you did ok Dad, but not really? I deserved better, but I can't quite bring myself to say that or admit it to myself or others yet.

How does this impact their future relationships, and are those relationships healthy to maintain (Connor chose an emotionally mostly unavailable woman to marry in Willa, who is using him for his money, at least in part, because he had a similarly emotionally unavailable Dad, while Shiv married a weak man who she could control in Tom, since she was rebelling against being controlled and manipulated by her Dad, but neither of them realize that yet). The children are all likely asking themselves, should I be making different choices now, as I gain more awareness that the patterns that I learned in childhood, and the coping mechanisms I employed, may no longer be serving me, both in business, and in life, and what does that mean for what I choose to do in the future, both personally and professionally? Or, am I unable to break out of these patterns because this is what I know and this is the cross I will need to continue to bear? This is what "Succession" is about at a deeper level, and it will be intriguing to learn what vestiges of answers emerge in the final 90 minutes of the show, or if the answers continue to remain elusive, both for the characters, as well as the audience.

Re: Succession
 

Good post, AKA23. I do see tiny moments here and there where the sibs each seem to be more aware of their situations/struggles post-Logan. I just don't see how we're going to get the kind of story-closure such inklings deserve in order to make the story feel in any way finished. Right now, so soon post-Logan, they're all still flailing around trying to find their footing. It seems like an odd spot to end their various tales. Not sure what this last episode holds, but let's just say I'm cautiously pessimistic. :D

Re: Succession
 

That they're not really comparable is exactly the point: even classics can have their moral boiled down to something trite, but it's how they make that point and all the smaller insights that comprise the moral that make something good. I mean, LOTR beats us over the head with the ring's corrupting power, but I don't think anyone's rolling their eyes during The Two Towers when Faramir's tempted by it just because dozens of characters already had been. Maybe Succession is seriously flawed, but if it is it's not because it has a simplistic core message.

Anyway, I think your second paragraph is probably the real issue: you want some likable characters. I don't really care if a given show has likeable characters, personally, so that's probably the key difference here. I suppose I'd watch less TV if every show was filled with awful people, but I wouldn't want every show to necessarily have likeable characters, either. Particularly comedies, which benefit a lot from having awful protagonists.

Logan was definitely compelling, but he was also the thinnest character by far. Which was by design, by the way: the writers have said he was the only one intended to be a straight-up archetype. In that sense he's really just there for them to react to, and with his death he's provoked the biggest reactions of all.

I don't mind unlikable characters. But when all of them are unlikable and none of them ever change, then they've kinda lost my excitement for the series. If that's what my opinion boils down to, then so be it. If a show wants to toss that many unlikable, unchangeable characters at me, I would appreciate even one I could like a little bit.

I feel as if you're going back and forth between the *several* things I've griped about, singling one out and then the other in separate responses. I have multiple reasons I'm not as wild about this show as others are -- or as wild as I myself used to be. One is the lack of likable characters to identify with. Another is the lack of any serious character arcs/changes. A third is the lackluster quality of this entire last season once Logan was gone. If they'd let his character hang on for the first half of the season, for instance, I might not be quite as annoyed with the show as I am now. Most of this season has felt like they're spinning their wheels and padding the story to fill ten episodes.

(Side note: I've read novels with unlovable characters who don't change, but even those aren't completely bleak. Also, they're novels and therefore take up a lot less of my time. Not 40+ hours.)

I suspect we are just at an impasse on our views of this show. I have a few other stray thoughts about it (generally), but they're a lot more personal and I'll leave 'em out of this discussion. :)

That emoji argument between Shiv and Roman at the beginning of "America Decides" was overly cute. Rava might have overreacted and been a little more appreciative to Kendall regarding the extra security, on the other hand, Kendall should have given Rava a heads up. "Good night, stay hydrated." Who ends a phone call like that? "We still think we can win, but we're very focused on losing." That scene between Justin Kirk and Kieran Culkin...what the hell was that all about? Loved that Greg told Tom that he doesn't do coffee anymore. It's about freaking time. Tom and Greg are becoming cokeheads? "Bodega Sushi? Are you insane?" Is Connor as delusional as he appeared in this episode? I think there's something wrong with this guy.? Is it just me, or does Jeanne Berlin look better now than she did in the 1972 film The Heartbreak Kid? Loved that Kendall nd Shiv didn't want to talk to Greg. So Shiv is using Logan's death to legitimize all of her bad behavior? Glad she told Tom she's pregnant. Shiv really needs help with her life but can't get it because she won't tell anybody everything and she talks in riddles. There was a a definite overuse of the word "narrative" in this episode. This election is not interesting enough to justify doing the whole thing over again. "I am going to the bathroom to sh*t...would you like me to live stream it?" Why was it such an issue that the siblings were on the news floor? Didn't their father own that news floor? Didn't get the scene with Shiv and Greg at all. The thought of Connor even in a cabinet post is kind of disturbing...there's something wrong with that guy. I lost it when Frank said he didn't know Connor was running for President. That Rome/Kendall scene got by me too. OK, am I reading this right? Are the siblings in danger of losing ALL of Waystar to Mattson? Logan ended wars? Seriously? If the truth be told, I knew Mencken was going to win when it was revealed that Justin Kirk was playing him. Now that Mencken has won, is a relationship between him and Matttson going to be revealed?

Re: Succession
 

@Gideon58 ... Great post with so many fun questions! Thank you for reminding me that it is at least a little bit fun to watch these insane people interact. :) I'd almost lost that thought.

Yeah, Connor is just ... yeah. :D He's almost become a caricature of himself since the show's beginning, but it's fun to watch him say and do ridiculous things.

And I love Justin Kirk, so I too assumed he'd be a large presence this season as soon as he showed up.

Re: Succession
 

I’ve enjoyed this final season & look forward to the finale. Twitter is aglow with who will ultimately come out on top. Greg seems a popular choice, but it seems too obvious to me. I have my money on Gerri. :)

You asked this question a week ago & @Yoda explained it then.

“Journalistic independence/integrity.”

Well, the beginning of "Church and State" revealed that his father's funeral was the only occasion for which Rome would put on a tie. Hope Kendall can hold it together for this funeral. Jeremy Strong was excellent in that scene with Rava. So glad that Shiv finally told her brothers that she's pregnant and lost it when Connor asked if it was his. Kendall is nuts if he thinks he's ever going to get full custody of his kids. I knew Kendall was going to make Jess' resignation hard for her. Kendall is losing it. Whoever heard of a eulogy leading to legal action? Lost it when Greg was observed traveling to the funeral on a bicycle, LOL! The growth in Greg definitely showed in his asking to be introduced to Menken. The Greg of season one wouldn't have done that. Caroline's return was appropriately creepy. It seemed mildly inappropriate that Mencken would attend this funeral, totally distracting the purpose of the event. Loved that Carrie brought an attorney in case there were "entry issues." Interesting that all of Logan's exes would sit together in the same pew. James Cromwell's return as Ewen was awesome..and who are the siblings to prevent Ewen from speaking at his brother's funeral? No matter what he had to say, he had the right to speak. Kieran nailed Rome's meltdown. Loved that instead of losing it like I thought he would, talking about his father would make Kendall stronger. "He was comfortable in this world...and he knew it...and he liked it...and I say amen to that." "Was he in a bidding war with Stalin and Liberace?" Not sure what Shiv was looking for from Frank and Carl. Marcia was spooky as ever. Now that it's over, I really don't understand Rava's fears about safety at the funeral.

Ethically, sure, but they largely act out of self-interest, rather than ethics.

Backing/support with the board.

She was concerned about the city as a whole, which is totally legitimized when we see all the riots at the end of the episode. Though even if those didn't happen, she obviously doesn't get to act with that hindsight.

Rava may be hyper-sensitive at this time. People often are when they are getting divorced. Kendall bullying her in the street when she told him she was taking the kids out of the city was horrible to see. Threatening to block her car, etc. Their divorce will be massively ugly especially since Kendall will try for custody of the kids.

Kendall was also very aggressive with Jess about her leaving him. He railed against her for bringing up the subject at his dad’s funeral, but he was the one who pushed for the discussion right then & there. :rolleyes:

Re: Succession
 

Yeah, I was pretty sympathetic to her because she's a mother and if there's even a 5% chance the city's going to erupt in riots, she should get out of there. If I were her I'd trust my instincts and err on the side of caution. Regardless, the show seemed to indicate the concern was founded based on how it ended.

Kendall was definitely channeling Logan in a few of those interactions, in the "I want what I want and I don't mind contradicting myself to express my displeasure" sense. All the kids have some aspect of him in them, or try to imitate some aspect of him, but none of them have the whole. It's kinda The Lion in Winter.

For some reason, I think I avoided The Lion in Winter. Peter O’Toole? Briefly, what was it about? Some British king?

Re: Succession
 

King Henry II, yeah. Great movie. We did a podcast about it back in 2016 that was a lot of fun. Has a lot of similarities to this show.

Re: Succession
 

Just finished the series finale. I won't mention any specifics so soon after its airing, but I'll say this:

It exceeded my best expectations and hopes. Somehow they managed to get me to appreciate the story WAY better in this last hour and a half. They did a spectacular job of letting the characters make a little more sense to me in the end.

Nicely done.

Re: Succession
 

That had everything I wanted from a TV show finale. Perfection.

It somehow brought the series into the kind of focus I'd been wanting, encapsulating itself and letting even the twists I didn't see coming make a LOT of sense. Really well done.

Re: Succession
 

I need to re-watch the finale. A lot to unpack.

Will do.

Re: Succession
 

This is great:
https://twitter.com/greenlife497/sta...35074724601857

Re: Succession
 

@ScarletLion ... those are hilarious! But yeah, I want to see a Greg in there! :D

Re: Succession
 

I can't stop hearing a posh English accent in my head saying "Peter doesn't like the nobbies".

I'm happy to report that finale took away virtually all of my frustration about the show. I still don't like ANY of them, but their interwoven story came full circle and had an ending that made sense--and that none of us really predicted, somehow. Bravo.

I’m told at least once a week what a beautiful British accent I have (I don’t), but Harriet’s voice is exquisite. What we call “cut glass”.

Thoughts after watching the finale twice:

Saint Ignatius Loyola, the Park Avenue R.C. church where Logan had his funeral, is where Jackie Kennedy had hers.

Is it weird that I have a crush on Oscar, Mattson’s go-to-guy from Iceland?

Willa decorating the house with a cow fabric sofa & getting rid of everything else. :eek:

Kendall calling his new assistant “New Jess”. Hilarious. Jess was the only one who broke free on her own terms.

Karolina trying to get rid of Hugo & vice versa.

Willa would rather stay in Manhattan than go to Slovenia with Connor. What a surprise.

That scene near the beginning of the series finale with Shiv and Mattson was pretty much incomprehensible, except for the fact that Shiv has no problem with throwing Tom under the bus. Roman with his mother? What's that about? Shiv an d Tom are in such a dark and confusing place. Can't believe Kendall still trusts Stewie. How has this whole thing come down to Roman? "I'm cutting heads and harvesting eyeballs." Mattson was really talking code with Tom, I don't know what was going on there. "Are you trying to tie Mommie's
apron strings around Roman's nuts?" I felt bad for Shiv, but what Mattson did didn't surprise me. I do like the fact that it might reunite the siblings. Wow, the siblings were pulled apart just as quickly as it seems they were coming together. "He would be unbearable and you would be a disaster." "You guys, I'd like a word with you...in my ass." The siblings in the kitchen was funny, but went on a little longer than necessary. Did I miss a will reading where Conner was left the house? Loved Conner's take on "I'm a little teapot." Tom and Greg fighting in the bathroom...that was awesome! Mattson's got Frank and Stewie? When did that happen? Loved that moment when Kendall sat in Logan's chair. "I love you, but I cannot f*cking stomach you." Jeremy Strong really nailed Kendall's desperation with Shiv and Roman. In a nutshell, not too many surprises, there were plot points that I would have liked to have been explored further, but all in all, a pretty solid series finale.

I didn’t like the finale.

I do have a question though. Why do you think Shiv made the decision that she did? I really don’t understand that, and the brief comments she provided beforehand really didn’t explain her motivation or the rationale for her vote.

See my spoiler-hidden comment in this thread a few bumps up. That's how I viewed Shiv's decisions in the finale.

Yeah your summary is spot on.

Also Roman's 'Bloodline' comment. Shiv's baby is literally a human combination of Waystar and Gojo....that has to wield some power.

Re: Succession
 

So, to boil it down to the essential argument, the reason Shiv changed her mind is because she thought that she'd have a greater ability to influence the direction of the company by Tom being CEO than Kendall, since she could manipulate Tom more easily, and be in closer proximity to the seat of power as his wife than she would be as Kendall's sister. It was, essentially a power play? Does anyone disagree with that, or have a different rationale to discuss?

Re: Succession
 

I think there are several reasons in addition to that one. Simple spite, not wanting her brother to have it. The director of the episode specifically said he thought seeing Kendall at Logan's desk, with his feet up, played a role. That and, slightly less cynical than just for power/influence with Tom, the fact that she's having his child and that's clearly led her to want some kind of reconciliation, if possible.

I also think she's literally telling the truth when she says "I don't think you'd be good at it." She's right, and I think it's basically a simple truth coming out only because we're in a situation where there's no point in making a move. There's no reason, for the first time, not to just say exactly what you think.

Don’t think I agree. Shiv’s always looking ahead & she was SHOCKED & UPSET that Tom was chosen. She didn’t see that coming because she didn’t think Mattson would betray her. I think she only realized what was happening when she was in the limo with Tom going home. Only then did she start to strategize internally.

Spite is totally right. Just the look on her face when she shook her head & told Kendall “no” said it all. She reverted to childhood as all of the Logan kids have done from time to time. Some more than others. And don’t forget her famous line: “I love you Kendall but I can’t stomach you.”

Why do you think he wouldn't be good as CEO of the company? And, in addition to your own personal perspective, why do you think she thinks that? That's a pretty strong conclusion to make and very impactful.

I agree with you that by the end of the series, the impression I got was that she wanted to try to stay together with Tom, and letting him be CEO of the company, and being the deciding vote to make that happen, may have been partly motivated by an attempt at reconciliation.

We've really only seen him make mistakes. He talks a big game, but that's kinda all he does. All the children reflect only part of Logan, insufficient without the other parts, and the part Kendall reflects is just the "push ahead no matter what" ambition. He seems to think everything can be made to blow up and succeed if they just TRY harder enough, spend enough money, buy enough other things. But we haven't really seen any prudence from him.

Also, more broadly: he also wants it too much. He's not cold or calculating the way Logan is (witness Logan willing to sell, and happy about it, because he got such a good offer).

Same reasons. He gets mocked about Vaulter multiple times in the last half of the final season, which I take to be the show kind of reminding us of why he might not actually know what he's doing (or why other people might think that).

Marcia agreed to sell Connor the house literally when they were all gathered there pretty soon after Logan’s death. A verbal agreement but I guess she honoured it.

His desperate urge to be CEO definitely clouded his judgment. He could think of nothing else.

Do you think any of the children would have done a good job running the company, or no, and why not? You've already answered this for Kendall. It seems to me that it feels wrong for someone not part of the family to run it, as I suspect that building a hugely successful company to leave to one's children is likely a big motivation for many wealthy people who achieve that unusual level of success.

No, for the reason alluded to in the last post (and expounded on a bit earlier in the thread, if you're curious): I think they all reflect one part of Logan's skillset, one thing they think made him what he was, but which is insufficient by itself. For Kendall it's the ambition, for Shiv it's the scheming, and for Roman it's the ruthlessness (as soon as he gets a whiff of power he starts "firing" people on a whim).

There's some other great stories with similar dynamics like The Lion in Winter, which is 100% an inspiration for this show, and which we did a podcast on some years back (great movie, BTW!).

It certainly is, but in this case I think they showed us Logan didn't think any of them really had what it takes. He was irreplaceable, at least internally, and he knew it, which is why he was happy to string all of them along whenever it was useful.

It was made pretty plain in actions, and then words, and then the show hit us over the head with it down the stretch just to be safe, where one of the last things he says to any/all of them are "you are not serious people."

Thanks so much for your thought on this. I agree with you that Logan didn't think any of his children were capable of leading the company, but that doesn't really prove they aren't capable. It's his opinion. It's an important data point, but arguably, not objectively determinative. It's interesting that you feel that the intent of that scene and the actions they took over the course of the show was to demonstrably show that they weren't capable of leading the company. I'm not sure I've ever heard the creators say that was their intent, so it could be true, and I see how you might be right, but I'm unsure of their intent, as it is a common trait in narcissistic people, of which Logan was definitely one, that nothing their children ever did or could do was good enough for him, and that he'd always see his kids as subordinate to himself and not as worthy or as talented, and that the kids efforts to prove otherwise were entirely futile. This was very clearly also a theme throughout the show.

I can definitely see where you are coming from though. I think an example which supports your point view is the scene with Nan Pierce in this last season when they were negotiating how much to pay to acquire her company. They were so focused on beating Logan that they didn't really consider how much her company was actually worth, so the deal they struck, which I'm not sure was ever consummated, resulted in them way overpaying. They never took the time to research what they should actually be paying for the company. They also didn't think strategically enough about what she would be willing to accept. They just threw random numbers out there without much of a basis grounding those numbers. Their sole focus was acquiring it so that their Dad would not get it. That did show very poor business acumen. Logan, in contrast, would have known how much the company was worth and also what the lowest acceptable bid would be that Nan Pierce would have accepted, based on his strategic point of view and decades long experience in this business dealing with these sorts of people and acquisitions.Have you ever heard the creators say showing that none of the kids were capable was part of their intent? I have not, and would be very interested to learn if the creators have spoken to that at any time.

Does everyone agree that none of the kids were capable and that that was the intent of the creators to show that by the end of the show? Does anyone have a different point of view, and why?

Re: Succession
 

Yeah, I loved that line: "Congratulations on saying the biggest f**king number." It was a great sum-up.

FWIW, I don't have much of an opinion on whether they could have taken it over. Just that they'd have been bad at it at that point. But as you say, Logan was a narcissist, and nothing they ever did would be good enough...which is a belief that makes itself true, if you raise your children with it in mind. Maybe they had no chance (a decent position, given how presumably hard it is to be a well-rounded person growing up in that kind of opulence), but whether they did or not, he didn't really afford them one either. And then the desire to prove him wrong becomes the focus, which in turn makes them unfit. So there's a good question about causality either way.

I have seen a handful of interviews over the last couple of weeks where the actors and showrunners/writers were clearly at odds about some of the characters' arcs and fates and whatnot, which I think is pretty interesting.

Re: Succession
 

Here's an article about show creator Jesse Armstrong and his thoughts about the finale. Relevant quote:

Re: Succession
 

It was a good, if unnecessary, ending; season 3 was already an ending.