View Full Version : Breaking Bad
Austruck
10-03-11, 11:35 AM
I think that, as much as Gus pretends to now admire Jesse, he thinks Jesse's a pretty plain, simple-minded guy -- at least compared to himself.
So I think he banked on Jesse doing exactly what he did -- going after Walt. (In that respect, Gus was right. Jesse DID play it out in his head exactly as planned.) What Gus didn't bank on was Walt getting his whole story out before Jesse had a chance to blow his head off.
And of course, Walt did get his story out, and Jesse did eventually believe it. Again, that speck of loyalty to Mr. White gave Jesse enough reasonable doubt to not shoot Walt.
I kind of agree with both. I don't think it's a plot hole, I just think the show did a mediocre job of sufficiently showing that Jesse was acting weird. I think the idea we're supposed to take away is that Gus picked up on something from Jesse, then realized he'd been brought "out in the open" by him, and that was just enough to make him wonder. If they'd just shown Jesse stumble over his words a little and then cut to some shot of Gus looking stern, I think we'd probably all be okay with how it went down, so I think it's just a small issue of execution (heh).
Even without that, I think the thought process is: he knew Jesse had the poison, so he knows Jesse knows about it. But he also knows Jesse can't admit to it (he asks Jesse how Brock got poisoned and you can see the gears in Jesse's head turn as he realizes he can't actually say without giving himself away). Which means that when Jesse decides to camp out at the hospital, it almost certainly means his plan has failed; either because Jesse didn't react the way he'd expected, or because he did but didn't go through with it. I guess that's just enough.
Though let's give them until next week and see if they fill in the back story a little more. I know lots of people still think Walt might have actually done it somehow, or that someone else did, and if that's true then the mere fact that someone else had poisoned Brock could easily be enough to cause Gus to change up his plans.
Oh, and I, too, loved seeing Walt cooking again.
And yes, I can absolutely see Jesse dying next week. No doubt about it. But I think Gus goes down one way or another. I think Walter ascends one more time heading into the last season.
I found it funny that it pointed to himself twice and he kept spinning it till it did what he wanted. It's clear he hasn't given up, despite having communicated that to Skyler while making her leave for safety without him.
It's a reference to Skyler flipping that coin on the Four Corners state lines. They have a few things in common.
Oh, and I've heard it suggested (and I think this pretty much has to be true) that Gus was involved with Pinochet down in Chile. That would explain a lot, particularly his keen instincts.
Pyro Tramp
10-03-11, 12:02 PM
Aus- yeah, I can see that as his plan, banking Jesse's reactionary nature but i'm going to hold out neither Gus or Walt did it. I still think it would be a sloppy move on Gus' behalf, especially without some measure to ensure Jesse was convinced it was Walt. Calling the DEA doesn't seem strong enough. With Gus having this whole dilemma of Jesse's loyalty to Walt and just how cautious he is, it seems like an uncharacteristically big risk to assume Jesse would kill him straight away.
Yoda, pretty much nail on head there I think, an execution lapse over writing hole. Though of Gus' deduction presumes he was the one to poison to Brock. I don't remember there being confirmation he approved the last killing of children, just Walt's adamant conjecture to sway Jesse back to him.
Can totally see Walt ascending and the show honing in more on him against his Brother-In-Law taking the arch of the next Season.
So what do we think of Saul's security pat down then? Red herring or ample opportunity?
Pyro Tramp
10-03-11, 12:04 PM
Oh, and I've heard it suggested (and I think this pretty much has to be true) that Gus was involved with Pinochet down in Chile. That would explain a lot, particularly his keen instincts.
That was my thinking couple pages ago :cool:
Though seems moot plot point now
Sorry, I must've missed that!
I think Gus' thinking was that, given his past with Jesse, messing with kids is the surest way to cause him to lose it. Maybe a stretch, but there's a tiny bit of precedent there. And yeah, it was never confirmed just how involved Gus was before. We know he refused to discipline the people responsible, he just told them to stop using kids. Whether or not he told them to wrap up loose ends after that or what, was never made clear, but I feel reasonably comfortable assuming that they weren't about to cross Gus, and that they were told to do it.
I don't think the Chile stuff is really going to affect any future plotline, but I think it's a good explanation that explains why he's such a bad dude. I do think we might hear reference to it if he dies. I can see Hank, for example, running through some summary of the guy's life once he's caught or killed. It could be interesting, if Walt has killed him already, to hear just who he was up against and realize, looking back, how lucky he was to come out on top against someone like that.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 01:52 PM
yeah, i thought the same thing about Gus at the end, there. there was no obvious reason at all for him to suspect foul play in that parking garage.
I thought that Gus heard the beep? It was very faint, but I could've sworn I heard the little beep of the chip Walt made as Gus approached the car...
ash_is_the_gal
10-03-11, 02:54 PM
okay. i know nobody wants to think that Walt would be capable of hurting a child, but i still think there's a chance it might have been Walt who poisoned him. Walt is arrogant enough to think he would be capable of convincing Jesse that it was Gus, and he knew that there would be plenty of circumstantial evidence to back that claim. god, Walt has been using Jesse's good nature against him since the first season. how uncharacteristic would it really be? i seriously believe Walt would do just about anything right now to save his own skin (as well as the people he loves).
and this certainly wouldn't be the first time he's responsible for hurting someone Jesse loves.
i almost have a feeling the whole thing will remain a mystery til next season... this next episode is going to be reactionary, i think.
You're not wrong, ash. I think it's plausible. For one reason, mainly: I assume Walt is going to get worse, and you have to assume the finale's going to spin us around with at least one event and/or revelation, and right now "Walt manages to kill Gus" doesn't exactly qualify, since we've been thinking about it all season.
I'd still bet against it, but I think something fairly crazy--in execution, if not in actual revelation--has to be coming next week.
ash_is_the_gal
10-03-11, 03:04 PM
oh yeah! and did anyone else find it weird how Walt didn't immediately say, "GUS DID IT!" when Jesse cornered him? it was out of character for him not to figure it out and desperately plead with Jesse like he tried to do before. he was weirdly calm and together about the whole thing, with a cliché "light bulb" moment (which Austruck didn't much like, but now I'm wondering if that had a purpose, even)... he even put the gun to his own head! my first thought was this: performance.
Pyro Tramp
10-03-11, 03:07 PM
Playing with a fire there a bit, though. Even if he did have nothing to lose, seems risky. But I kinda like it, thinking back to the scene with that perspective.
The fact that these things are even plausible to us really says a lot about how great this show is.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 03:20 PM
It's entirely possible the Walt poisoned Brock. When Walt spun the gun around for the 3rd time, it pointed at the potted plant with white flowers. This might have given Walt an idea...
Also, why couldn't anyone reach Walt on his cell phone all day? We see him at the pool, and then he disappears for a bit.
If Walt did indeed poison Brock, I don't think he gave the kid a lethal dose.
Pyro Tramp
10-03-11, 03:22 PM
How did he get the poison out Jesse's cigarettes though?
ash_is_the_gal
10-03-11, 03:29 PM
well, i really don't know. i know the whole idea is a pretty big long shot, but I'd much rather it be Walt than Gus at this point. Gus seems much too level-headed and cautious a guy to pull a stunt like that.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 04:12 PM
How did he get the poison out Jesse's cigarettes though?
Maybe he didn't even use the poison in the cigarette. Perhaps Walt made some other concoction. The ricin would take 24-48 hours to take effect. Brock got sick the very same day he was allegedly poisoned, so ricin couldn't be the poison.
Austruck
10-03-11, 04:13 PM
No no no... I do NOT think Walt would hurt a child. He's a father, even of an infant, and I've never seen anything inconsistent in him that makes me think he wouldn't find the whole idea appalling.
As for Gus: He threatened to kill Walt's infant daughter. I don't see Gus as an empty threat guy, and he said this precisely because Walt KNOWS he would do it. (Otherwise, it would have sounded hollow to Walt and not as a threat.)
I think Walt didn't have an *immediate* light bulb moment because, well, a FEW synapses have to fire before he'd come to that conclusion. After all, he likely thought first, "But only Jesse and I knew about that cigarette," so it would take him a few seconds (with Jesse still wildly pointing a gun at his head -- not the best situation for clear-headed thought for anybody!) to make the connection that Gus is yet again involving a child.
It is the final step for Gus to try to get Jesse completely on board and away from Walt -- an alliance he KNOWS he will have to break in order to get what he wants (Jesse as loyal cook and unpredictable Walt out of the picture).
I think we are pushing Gus's cold calculations too far here and assuming he never makes a mistake, just because we haven't seen any big mistakes from him yet. But with two loose cannons before him (Jesse and Walt), both wildly unpredictable, there are bound to be miscalculations when it comes to guessing how either of them might react to a given scenario.
Gus played a card here. I think he played it just badly enough to allow a plausible opening for him to be killed somehow (in the last episode). I think that's all we need.
As for the speculations and gyrations going on now, I think those are ALL red herrings just so we don't feel too led by the nose into Gus's demise. The writers want us to have SOME sort of doubt about the outcome and how things happened. That's just good writing.
But I think it would be WAY out of character for Walt to (a) involve a child and (b) involve a child that Jesse is attached to.
We've seen Walt and Jesse scuffle a lot, but we haven't seen any truly earth-shattering and ultimate loyalty-breaking actions by Walt toward Jesse. Nothing as hugely pivotal as poisoning a child.
Plus, I don't think Walt currently would save his skin at all costs. Otherwise he would have taken the cowardly way out and gone with Skyler. Or just let Jesse go after Gus without volunteering to come along.
My two cents. Am willing to put up or shut up that Walt had nothing to do with Brock.
Austruck
10-03-11, 04:14 PM
As for the 24-48 hours -- Is that for an adult? I would think it would take effect a lot faster in a child..... These things are "flexible."
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 04:23 PM
Light bulb:
Saul hand-delivers money to Andrea.
Saul knows where Andrea lives.
Walt doesn't.
Pyro Tramp
10-03-11, 04:31 PM
Didn't Walt visit them last episode and that was Jesse's argument that he saw them then?
Walt visited them while they were at Jesse's house, I think.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 04:51 PM
Didn't Walt visit them last episode and that was Jesse's argument that he saw them then?
Walt was at the door, yes. But Jesse didn't let him in. How, then, could Walt have administered poison at this time?
That's what I'm trying to figure out: how the heck was the poison administered?!?
The timeline is really confusing :suspicious:
Austruck
10-03-11, 05:54 PM
Walt visited them while they were at Jesse's house, I think.
Yeah, that was Jesse's newly cleaned-up house. Her house (or apartment?) has lower ceilings and is more "cute" than Jesse's older house.
Austruck
10-03-11, 05:54 PM
Tailing Saul might be how Gus found out where she lives. Then again, he knows everything. :)
I still say Gus had motive, means, and precedent.
Pyro Tramp
10-03-11, 07:16 PM
Walt was at the door, yes. But Jesse didn't let him in. How, then, could Walt have administered poison at this time?
That's what I'm trying to figure out: how the heck was the poison administered?!?
The timeline is really confusing :suspicious:
Oh, I meant as that's how Walt would know where they lived but as it was just pointed it, that was Jesse's house. Though you don't know how long they were staying there for
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 07:28 PM
Though you don't know how long they were staying there for
Yeah, we see Andrea and Brock at Jesse's house playing video games, but it's already dark outside. They could have been there all day..?
I'm wondering if Brock was even poisoned at all. Maybe he's just sick? What if the poison is just a red herring to keep our attention diverted from what's really going on?
Oh man, I am thinking about this way too much!
Austruck
10-03-11, 07:31 PM
I guess I assumed that the poisoning -- and even the fact that it was ricin -- was confirmed simply from the fact that Jesse had been there all day (or more?) camping out at the hospital. If something else had been wrong, surely Andrea would have come out and told him. I mean, I'm betting she's going to be furious with him after what he told her, even if it didn't contribute to Brock's situation, but my assumption was that, when Jesse told Gus what was going on, that was because it had somehow been confirmed as true already.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 07:38 PM
...my assumption was that, when Jesse told Gus what was going on, that was because it had somehow been confirmed as true already.
It was not necessarily confirmed, though. Jesse got the call that Brock was in the hospital. Then he gets there, and talks to Andrea. He then goes outside for a cigarette and realizes that the ricin cigarette is missing from his pack.
He immediately assumed that the ricin was administered to Brock. He even tells Andrea to tell the doctors about it. But when Jesse returns to the hospital later on, he is not allowed to see Brock.
...If Jesse was correct about it being ricin, and Andrea told the doctors, then why wouldn't Andrea or her grandmother allow him in the room? If his advice had been helpful, then why was he shunned?
Austruck
10-03-11, 07:42 PM
Why? I thought that was obvious. Because Jesse is responsible for what happened. This wouldn't have happened if he hadn't had the poison in the first place.
Both Andrea and her mother can still blame Jesse and hate him for what happened even if Brock survives.
But it sure doesn't look good for Brock.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-03-11, 08:17 PM
Jesse messed up by mentioning the poison to Andrea. In the package for the finale, we see Jesse sitting at what appears to be an interrogation table. Perhaps Andrea did mention Jesse's ricin theory to the doctors, and the hospital called the police...after all, how could Jesse know about the poison? He's in trouble.
ash_is_the_gal
10-04-11, 06:27 AM
No no no... I do NOT think Walt would hurt a child. He's a father, even of an infant, and I've never seen anything inconsistent in him that makes me think he wouldn't find the whole idea appalling.
As for Gus: He threatened to kill Walt's infant daughter. I don't see Gus as an empty threat guy, and he said this precisely because Walt KNOWS he would do it. (Otherwise, it would have sounded hollow to Walt and not as a threat.)
well, this is kind of why i thought Walt might just be crazy enough to do it. he probably figured it would be fairly easy to convince Jesse that Gus did it because they both already know through experience that Gus could and has easily done something like that without batting an eyelash.
when it comes to Walt hurting a child, i really don't know. i admit it isn't exactly likely, but i honestly wouldn't rule it out altogether, and it's the exact kind of curveball i'd expect from a show like this.
it probably isn't Walt, but i think putting the seed out doubt cause for speculation was intentional on the writers part, definitely. i do think that's why the Jesse/Walt/gun-to-the-head scene played out the way it did, and it's also why they purposely didn't show us what Walt was up to earlier that day - we, as an audience, are also left in the dark about this thing.
We've seen Walt and Jesse scuffle a lot, but we haven't seen any truly earth-shattering and ultimate loyalty-breaking actions by Walt toward Jesse. Nothing as hugely pivotal as poisoning a child.
not anything due to a deliberate act on Walt's part, but he did let Jesse's girlfriend Jane die right before his eyes. that was quite earth-shattering and loyalty-breaking, but Jesse never found out about it, so Walt doesn't have to own up to it. very similar to this situation in that regard, if he can actually pull off making Jesse believe Gus was the guilty party here.
when i said i thought Walt would do anything to save his own skin, i actually did mean him and his family both. i really don't think Walt would let his family die to save himself, i really don't, and i do think he would do anything to protect his own family - and if need have it, i think he would hurt Jesse to do it. if he hasn't already, he just might before this season is over.
but we'll see.
Anyone think Mike might pop his head back up next week and pick sides...possibly even against Gus?
Austruck
10-04-11, 11:02 AM
Anyone think Mike might pop his head back up next week and pick sides...possibly even against Gus?
He does seem conspiciously absent, doesn't he? And he seems to have gained a real respect for Jesse, perhaps even a similar semi-father-figure bond like Walt has had with Jesse.
Funny how all the older men want to guide and coach Jesse, isn't it?
It certainly could make for quite a twist. If Mike knows or finds out that most of the reason he's still alive is that Jesse fought for him back at the operating tent in Mexico, then who knows? Mike might realize that Gus was more interested in saving his own skin (or at least, that's what the doctors there perceived as Gus's priorities and their own) than in helping out his right-hand man. Bingo -- loyalty to Gus gone.
Now, would Jesse or Walt know that and possibly exploit it and actively recruit Mike on their side? Perhaps, but I see Mike as just a lone wild card in the last episode here. I doubt Mike has much respect for Walt and his extreme overreactions to just about everything.
Austruck
10-04-11, 11:06 AM
As for whether Walt could hurt a child and that twist: I'm glad they made it possible in terms of "opportunity" for Walt and even "means," but I'm still convinced that it's a stretch for us to think Walt would go there (hurting a child) to get what he wants.
We've seen him stick his own neck out there (in stupid ways, I admit) enough to know he's at some sort of ultimatum/crossroads here. But nothing involving Jesse is threatening his family -- it's Gus he's after.
I feel that, if they tell us definitively that Walt was purposely responsible for poisoning Brock, it'll be a HUGE breach of trust with the audience because you can't just put in a twist that's a shock without it having SOME sort of hint somewhere. It can't come out of left field in terms of the character's personality.
Even people pushed to the edge still have some sort of core values. I don't think anything Jesse has done has pushed Walt so far that he'd hurt/kill a child in Jesse's life. I'd feel like they pulled that twist out of thin air if it goes that way.
bouncingbrick
10-04-11, 11:43 AM
I watched the entire series in the last three weeks, first on Netflix then I caught up on the current season. Great show.
I think it's very possible that Walt poisoned Brock. It brought Jesse back onto his side and allowed him the opportunity to plant the bomb on Gus' car.
I haven't read this entire thread, but has anyone else picked up on the super-hero theme of the show, specifically Batman and Robin? Walter White (an alliterative name like many super-heroes, Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, Wally West, etc.) has a secret identity which he had to keep from everyone, including his family, for their protection and his. He has a sidekick who, like Robin, dresses in outlandish and brightly colored costumes and has the goofy name of Pinkman (Pink-Man). Walt dons a costume when going to "work", both the lab safety suit and the hat and sunglasses. He has a secret lair in which to do his work. He always has to stay one step ahead of the "bad guys" while protecting his activities from police detection. And, his biggest comparison to Batman, his best weapon is his brain, often using science to outwit his opponents.
Also, I believe the creators knew about this parallel, specifically because of the scene where Jesse was showing his made up super-heroes to Jane. It was a wink, wink, nudge, nudge moment, IMO.
Has anyone else noticed this or was it already mentioned somewhere in this thread?
Austruck
10-04-11, 11:52 AM
I don't think anyone has pointed out the similarities, but a big ol "thumbs up" rep from me because it's brilliant. :)
Let me be clear on the Walt-poisoned-Brock thing: I think it's POSSIBLE as far as the plot lines go. I think Walt could have motive, means and opportunity, thereby making him a suspect to us, the viewers.
But one cannot rule out past glimpses into a character's core personality. There are basic, bottom-of-the-barrel lines that most folks will not cross, no matter what. I am convinced that harming/killing a chlid is way over that line for Walt, no matter what his circumstances are.
I feel that the plot possibilities are there ONLY to give us as viewers some reasonable doubt and tension. And it's obviously working. But I feel all the "Walt" pointers are red herrings so that we feel a bit like Jesse did while he had the gun to Walt's head: "Is it true or not?"
That's crucial when writing a story like this: a lot of question marks to keep the viewer fascinated.
So, arguments that he had the opportunity or the time to do it are fine, but they don't speak to the core values Walt still holds (IMHO). I do NOT feel Walt would do absolutely anything to save his own skin. He was speaking the truth when he told Skyler he's been staring death in the face for the past year.
If anything, Walt wouldn't want to do something vile that would put him on the same moral plane as Gus. He might admire Gus for some of his qualities of leadership and focus, but he has never admired Gus for having hurt a child.
I'll shut up now. :D
Brodinski
10-04-11, 11:53 AM
Hmmm, a bit dissapointed about this episode. It's still up in the air as to who poisoned the kid. You can make a case for each side (Gus and Walt) poisoining him or that it was just some dumb coincidence like Pyro suggested.
Can't wait for the final episode, although I might be dissapointed if Walt survives this.
Austruck
10-04-11, 11:56 AM
Brodinski, I'm going into this last episode of the season assuming Walt lives ... if only because there is another whole season left and there's just no way they have an entire season without Walt.
The questions in my mind are what will happen to Gus, to Jesse, to a few others -- but not whether Walt will ultimately survive this particular season.
Brodinski
10-04-11, 12:20 PM
You may very well be right. I don't think it's impossible to have a whole season without Walt. There's plenty of story left to be told without him. Hank could get back in action and go after Gus. Mike could make a return (which I think he will do any way in the final episode of this season). Skyler and Walt Jr. would need to cope with Walt not being alive anymore. There's still that issue of Ted being dead (?). They could possibly get the poh-leece over to ask Skyler some questions and involve a story arc about that.
To me, this whole season has been Walt's slow but certain unravelling due to his arrogance, pride and a deeply-rooted urge for recognition. It would be perfectly logical if he doesn't survive this season, because of the mess he made with a dangerous, cold and calculated man like Gus. If he would somehow still survive this, then I will kinda dissapointed. Just because he is the main character of the show, is that an automatic guarantee he will survive just like ALL the other main characters in TV shows? That leads to scooping out the suspense.
If you go through this much trouble of showing a guy undertake actions that lead to him ending up trapped in a corner, only to survive... well... I don't like that much. Of course, you can still make it suspenseful, but there will always be this thought in the back of my head: 'This guy isn't going to die'. That was always a problem I had with The Sopranos as well. Deep down, you knew Tony wasn't ever going to get capped.
Now, if he actually were to end up killed, imagine that... It would make perfect sense in light of the developments of the season.
"Ted's dead, baby. Ted's dead."
Austruck
10-04-11, 12:39 PM
Brod, I get what you mean... any character should be fair game, especially in an ensemble cast. That was certainly the case with Battlestar Galactica: I always felt as if any of those characters could snuff it at any moment.
However, this show is precisely WALTER WHITE's story. Everyone else is here to help tell HIS story. (He's the one who's breaking bad, of course.) To eliminate him completely for an entire season just doesn't work.
Whether or not that eliminates some tension (and I admit it does) is a secondary issue to the one of remembering just whose story they're telling here.
It would be all right to have Walt die in the middle of the last season, for example, and then wrap up the whole series by showing the aftermath of this turn of events. But we don't need (or even want) an entire season of denouement. The other characters are interesting, but not the main focus.
It wouldn't be right for this to suddenly become Gus's story for a whole season or Jesse's or Mike's or Skyler's or Hank's. Sure, we want to see what becomes of all these characters, but the most interesting parts of even their stories are how they intertwine and are affected by Walt's story and his actions.
Sorry, but Walt won't die this season.
ash_is_the_gal
10-04-11, 01:03 PM
now i hope Walt dies on Sunday night just to laugh at Austruck's extreme certainty (he won't, though, she's right).
i don't really get it when people say they'll be disappointed in a television show if a plot point doesn't go their way, when they don't even know yet how it will be executed. i actually don't really care how it all unfolds, because i already know it's going to be great, whatever it is.
Austruck
10-04-11, 01:08 PM
Ash, if I'm wrong on the two big things I've been harping on (Walt not poisoning Brock and Walt not dying), I'll come back here on Monday and admit it freely! :)
I'm with you on this one, at least with this series: I am enjoying the ride so much that I'll tag along wherever they take me.
That's not always true for me, though -- or, at least, with series endings. I have had issues with the endings (or aspects of the endings) of several of my favorite series: Battlestar Galactica, Lost, The Sopranos, even Deadwood, to name a few.
But along the way, I usually didn't mind at all where they led me.
Brodinski
10-04-11, 01:13 PM
i actually don't really care how it all unfolds, because i already know it's going to be great, whatever it is.
Meh, that's not always the case. The Sopranos was a brilliant series, but I know plenty of people who were very dissapointed with the way Chase ended it.
bouncingbrick
10-04-11, 02:03 PM
I don't think Walt will die until tthe end of the next season, assuming he dies at all. I kind of figured the show would end with him turning himself in and giving up all he knows and going into protective custody. I know the show is pretty dark, but it seems like that could be a logical end game for the show.
@ Austruck The core glimpses of Walt personality never showed that he wouldn't hurt children, that I remember. It was Jesse that wanted the dealers to stop using the kid. It was Jesse that went after them when the kid died. Walt just watches after his family and Jesse, because Jesse is like family to him at this point. He did stand by and watch Jane die just to protect Jesse, after all. Poisoning Brock isn't completely out of the question. Though I do believe it was Gus that did it.
Thanks for the compliment. I think at some point during the conception of the show they realized they were making a show about a super-hero, or they even knew about it from the get go. Remember, Vince Gilligan was a producer on X-Files. If he's not aware of the geeky aspects of his work, then I don't know who is. :D
filmgirlinterrupted
10-04-11, 02:16 PM
@ Austruck The core glimpses of Walt personality never showed that he wouldn't hurt children, that I remember. It was Jesse that wanted the dealers to stop using the kid. It was Jesse that went after them when the kid died. Walt just watches after his family and Jesse, because Jesse is like family to him at this point. He did stand by and watch Jane die just to protect Jesse, after all. Poisoning Brock isn't completely out of the question. Though I do believe it was Gus that did it.
Yeah, I don't think it's out of the question. Walt has done some terrible things in the past, but as an audience we forgive him. Walt has been getting colder and meaner as the show progresses. I would not be surprised if it was he who poisoned Brock.
I have a hard time finding a motive that would push Gus to do it. What would he have to gain? He would know that Jesse would be upset about it, why would he want to push him away? He'd be left with no cooks. Also, if he did poison the kid, that would imply that he knew he'd have to be at the hospital, he knew that Jesse would refuse to come to work. Why, then, was he wary of his car? If the trip to the hospital was pre-planned, why would he be so cautious?
I think Gus realized what was going on, realized that Walt was somehow behind this, and figured that if Walt had the cajones to mess with Brock and betray Jesse, then he'd better watch his step.
Brodinski
10-04-11, 05:00 PM
When he finds out the kid is having a flu of some sorts, he thinks about the ricin. He grabs the pack of cigarettes to look for the ricin ciggie, but he can't find it.
He explains to Walt that he switched the ricin cigarette into a new pack this morning and the last time he saw Brock was last night, so there is no way the kid could have taken the cigarette himself.
Gustavo said that 'an appropriate response' would follow. We then see that Jesse starts cooking and some time passes until he finishes the batch.
POSSIBILITY A: The black dude working for Gus snatches the ricin ciggie while Jesse is cooking and somehow poisons the kid.
After Jesse finishes his job, he is dropped off by his car and heads over to Saul's. There he is patted down by Saul's fat, black dude.
POSSIBILITY B: Walt has called Saul, and told him to somehow obtain the cigarette from Jesse. The black dude somehow manages to do this while frisking Jesse.
I think both of these are plausible. Saul is a guy without scrupules or morals, so he would have no problem being a part of this, especially considering he is scared sh!tless of Gus. Being rid of Fring, at whatever the cost, must sound very appealing to him. But I just don't buy that that clumsy fatass can snatch the one cigarette from Jesse's pack while Jesse is resisting and moving about constantly. That seems like a stretch.
I don't doubt however that Walt is capable of killing a kid he doesn't know in order to save himself and his family. Like some have brought up, he did have a long hard look at that plant when he spinned his gun for the final time...
Still, I think the most plausible explanation is that Gus is responsible.
The fact that were are debating over this, means that the episode was very well build-up and executed. The question is now whether we'll ever find out who exactly poisoned Brock. I think we are owed some kind of explanation...
Everyone just lay your cards on the table. :D Mine:
- Walt doesn't die this season.
- Gus poisoned Brock.
- Gus dies or is caught.
Jesse could die or end up in prison. Won't actually predict it, but I find both eminently plausible.
Austruck
10-04-11, 05:22 PM
Everyone just lay your cards on the table. :D Mine:
- Walt doesn't die this season.
- Gus poisoned Brock.
- Gus dies or is caught.
Jesse could die or end up in prison. Won't actually predict it, but I find both eminently plausible.
Your cards are exactly like mine.
bouncingbrick
10-04-11, 05:23 PM
I agree with Yoda on all counts and add to it that Walt won't die at all, even in the last season. I think it's a worser punishment for the things he's done to have to live with them.
I just want to add that I love how the show doesn't just explain the fallout of Walt's actions on those closest to him, but it also shows a lot of the collateral damage that his actions have on the world, like the plane crash.
I agree with Yoda on all counts and add to it that Walt won't die at all, even in the last season. I think it's a worser punishment for the things he's done to have to live with them.
I'm pretty open-minded about that. I'm pretty certain he's going to meet a pretty bad end, but I'm fairly agnostic on whether or not that means death or just misery. Though I am kind of intrigued by the idea that he could end up in jail and/or his family could be hurt, and yet he still might not accept that it was his fault. It would be a gutsy move to have him defiant to the end, to show the extent of his self-delusion. It's certainly something the show has built to, and it would not be at all out of character.
I just want to add that I love how the show doesn't just explain the fallout of Walt's actions on those closest to him, but it also shows a lot of the collateral damage that his actions have on the world, like the plane crash.
Agree completely. Walt is basically a disease at this point and everyone near him gets infected somehow. All of their lives are worse because of Walt.
Pyro Tramp
10-04-11, 05:54 PM
-Walt and Jesse, teamed up, will best Gus (not necessarily kill), I think a nice irony would be him getting arrested despite their best efforts to kill him thus keeping him as still a threat
-Brock was accidentally took the poison, making Jesse regret turning on Gus
-Besting Gus (in whatever manner) will compromise Walt to Hank
-Saul will mediate a truce with Mike, maybe to take out Tyrus etc
Stipulations:
-If Gus is killed, then Walt may have been responsible for the poisoning, meaning he's completely manipulated Jesse, gives some tension next Season.
StrongReaction
10-04-11, 06:15 PM
Wow...again! Another amazing episode! I don't know how they do it but each time I think this show has hit it's peak Sunday rolls around and they manage to top themselves. Words can't describe how much I'm looking forward to Sunday night. I can't remember anticipating any TV show this much (well at least until yesterday when I heard Arrested Development was returning:)).
Anyway as far as who poisoned Brock wouldn't the vial missing from Jesse's cigarete kind of point to Gus, or at least rule Walt out. Why would Walt need to go through the trouble or risk of stealing a vial of poison that he can create himself? Plus I think it's pretty safe to assume (knowing Gus) that Gus knew about the plot and the poison. I mean I have to imagine (again, knowing Gus and his penchant for surveilance) that Jesse's house is bugged and Walt and Jesse discussed it plenty of times there. Gus or his henchmen could have easily gotten the vial at any time when Jesse was in the lab working.
Also as 'bad' as Walt has become I don't think he would poison a kid especially since he has 2 of his own. Of course the great thing about this show is that the best I can say is "don't think he would" instead of "definitly would not" because when it comes down to it it is still very plausible that Walt did do it. And while we still think theres some good in Walt we've seen him degenerate into a pretty morally bankrupt character over 4 seasons where it's not outside the realm of possibilty for him to poison a kid, especially if he thinks his back is against the wall.
I also highly doubt that either Walt or Jesse will get killed Sunday. If either were to die I would bet it wouldn't happen until the end of the final season. Of course I could be very wrong. Like I said the great thing about this show is that you never know how things are going to play out. If any show would kill off a main character this early it would be this one. As for what else is going to happen I can't even begin to try to guess what they're going to do
Sunday can't come fast enough! I'm also probably going to totally fail a number theory exam on Monday by staying up to watch this and the rerun right after...and it's going to be awesome!
"I watched the entire series in the last three weeks, first on Netflix then I caught up on the current season. Great show.
I think it's very possible that Walt poisoned Brock. It brought Jesse back onto his side and allowed him the opportunity to plant the bomb on Gus' car.
I haven't read this entire thread, but has anyone else picked up on the super-hero theme of the show, specifically Batman and Robin? Walter White (an alliterative name like many super-heroes, Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, Wally West, etc.) has a secret identity which he had to keep from everyone, including his family, for their protection and his. He has a sidekick who, like Robin, dresses in outlandish and brightly colored costumes and has the goofy name of Pinkman (Pink-Man). Walt dons a costume when going to "work", both the lab safety suit and the hat and sunglasses. He has a secret lair in which to do his work. He always has to stay one step ahead of the "bad guys" while protecting his activities from police detection. And, his biggest comparison to Batman, his best weapon is his brain, often using science to outwit his opponents.
Also, I believe the creators knew about this parallel, specifically because of the scene where Jesse was showing his made up super-heroes to Jane. It was a wink, wink, nudge, nudge moment, IMO.
Has anyone else noticed this or was it already mentioned somewhere in this thread?"
Awesome post man! That's a really cool observation that I never noticed before. Thanks for pointing that out.
ash_is_the_gal
10-04-11, 07:08 PM
Ash, if I'm wrong on the two big things I've been harping on (Walt not poisoning Brock and Walt not dying), I'll come back here on Monday and admit it freely! :)
don't worry, i got ya covered, girlfran. if things go opposite of what you've said, i'm going to do this:
Austruck LOL
at exactly 11:01pm est on Sunday.
re: being disappointed with plot points. i get that, i just don't get being disappointed with a plot point if it was executed beautifully. they can kill off the whole White family if they wanna. i've got a lot of faith in this particular show.
Austruck
10-04-11, 07:32 PM
StrongReaction -- I hadn't thought of the fact that Walt could have concocted just about anything to poison Brock. He certainly didn't need to incriminate himself by stealing the cig from Jesse -- knowing that they both thought only the two of them knew about it. That's dumb, even for Walt.
Gus, though, doesn't know chemistry and would have needed to steal the cig to get the ricin...
Hmmm....
ash_is_the_gal
10-04-11, 07:37 PM
noooo! of course Walt would steal the cigarette to poison Brock! he wants Jesse to think it's Gus, not him. if he just concocted his own thing, then it would have been obvious it was him. the whole point in doing it would be to turn Jesse away from Gus, right? he needs for him to think it was Gus, and as you said, Gus would have to steal the cig because he's no chemist.
Austruck
10-04-11, 07:39 PM
Duh, yes. Thanks. :)
Obvious as soon as I reread my own post. He wouldn't HAVE to steal it if his goal were to poison someone, but since his goal would have been to turn Jesse, yes, he'd have to steal it.
bouncingbrick
10-04-11, 07:42 PM
noooo! of course Walt would steal the cigarette to poison Brock! he wants Jesse to think it's Gus, not him. if he just concocted his own thing, then it would have been obvious it was him. the whole point in doing it would be to turn Jesse away from Gus, right? he needs for him to think it was Gus, and as you said, Gus would have to steal the cig because he's no chemist.
Exactly! I still think this one is totally up in the air. Walt could go either way as a character. We already know a lot of the depths that he would go to protect the ones he loves. Especially after Gus threatened his baby girl.
Austruck
10-04-11, 07:48 PM
See, to me the threat to his own daughter just makes it plainer to me that he wouldn't hurt an innocent child. He HAS a child -- two! -- and knows what this means.
Now, if GUS had a child, then I believe Walt would stoop so low as to hurt THAT child. But that's the only child he'd have hurt....
Part of this springs from the fact that I don't think Walt was sitting there alone after Skyler left thinking up ways to bring Jesse back to his side. I think he was sitting there contemplating his own fate, and figuring out if he wanted to try to kill Gus (or himself), and then starting to concoct ways that might happen.
I just don't see Jesse as his focus at that particular time. But, we'll find out in about a half-week. :)
ash_is_the_gal
10-04-11, 07:48 PM
Plus I think it's pretty safe to assume (knowing Gus) that Gus knew about the plot and the poison. I mean I have to imagine (again, knowing Gus and his penchant for surveilance) that Jesse's house is bugged and Walt and Jesse discussed it plenty of times there. Gus or his henchmen could have easily gotten the vial at any time when Jesse was in the lab working.i've always thought this, too. i think Gus has known since the very beginning about the poison. does anyone remember how Jesse conveniently had the opportunity to poison that pot of coffee that Mike and Gus asked him to make, like, straight after he and Walt had discussed how he would poison Gus? it was literally like the next day that he saw Gus and had to do that. i remember thinking, even at the time, that that was kind of fishy. why all of a sudden would they ask Jesse to make a pot of coffee? i think it was some kind of test to see if he'd use it. they wanted to see if he'd be loyal to them or something. he passed, obviously.
i think Gus felt like Jesse wouldn't use the poison on him after that, and therefore, he didn't feel the need to act on it.
StrongReaction
10-04-11, 07:50 PM
noooo! of course Walt would steal the cigarette to poison Brock! he wants Jesse to think it's Gus, not him. if he just concocted his own thing, then it would have been obvious it was him. the whole point in doing it would be to turn Jesse away from Gus, right? he needs for him to think it was Gus, and as you said, Gus would have to steal the cig because he's no chemist.
Haha yea you're totally right. Stupid oversight on my part.
Brodinski
10-05-11, 05:37 AM
I would like to believe that Walt poisoned the kid. When his gun spinned in the direction of that plant, he had this look on his face that said 'game on, bitch'.
But IF it turns out that it was actually him, then I'd like to know how exactly he managed to lift the cigarette off of Jesse. The only way I can think of right now is that Saul's fat dude grabbed it when he was frisking Jesse. That however seems IMPOSSIBLE when you re-watch that scene. First off, Jesse was not exactly cool with that fatso touching him and was moving about and resisting it while calling Saul. AND there was only 1 cigarette missing, so he can't have taken the entire pack. There is just no way as hell that a guy with fingers as thick as sausages can grab a single cigarette out of a pack in a time span of roughly 5 seconds.
So if it turns out that Walt was responsible and that was actually the method by which he acquired the ricin cigarette, then it's poorly executed. I won't buy that. And I think the creator knows that people won't buy that.
And that's why I think Gus did. Not because Walt isn't capable of doing it (he is imo), but because Gus had the better, more realistic opportunity to grab the cigarette.
bouncingbrick
10-05-11, 09:29 AM
^My thoughts exactly, Brodinski. When Walt is sitting by the pool he's obviously coming up with a plan. I doubt the plan is "Hide in the house with the curtains drawn", which is what we see him doing later in the episode when Jesse shows up at his house.
I'm still reluctant to say that he did it because I fear that will put him pretty deep toward being an unsympathetic character (he's already pretty cold and detatched at this point anyway), but I can't help but have the nagging feeling that it was him.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-05-11, 04:29 PM
I'm still reluctant to say that he did it because I fear that will put him pretty deep toward being an unsympathetic character
I think that's the point of the show, though. As an audience, we are slowly starting to realize that Walt isn't such a good dude.
Walt's character arc has gone from protagonist to antagonist. I think that we're meant to lose sympathy for him.
bouncingbrick
10-05-11, 05:23 PM
I think that's the point of the show, though. As an audience, we are slowly starting to realize that Walt isn't such a good dude.
Walt's character arc has gone from protagonist to antagonist. I think that we're meant to lose sympathy for him.
But I think he's always had a chance for redemption. If he did indeed poison Brock then it may take him past the point of no return.
But, maybe there won't be a turn back for Walter, maybe you're right. The reason I've always kind of expected him to turn back to the protagonist is because of the way they set up instant sympathy from the get go; pregnant wife, son with Cerebral Palsy, cancer. It's easy to jump onto his side from the first half hour of the show. Maybe it is the point for him to become a terrible and selfish person, but I think he still has a tiny chance to come back from the edge.
Pyro Tramp
10-06-11, 03:59 PM
I have a day full of interviews Monday through to Tuesday. Fml
TV critic Alan Sepinwall saw the finale early and someone asked him, on Twitter, if he was pleased with it. His answer:
"Yes."
Pyro Tramp
10-06-11, 05:08 PM
Shhhh
:D I figured that was exactly as much information as it would be fair to reveal. I guess he felt the same.
Giddy.
Pyro Tramp
10-06-11, 05:15 PM
I'm still annoyed I'll have to wait 2 days post-air to see it!
You'll have to stay very, very far away from this thread.
Pyro Tramp
10-06-11, 05:17 PM
You're telling me, though I used to be a glutton for spoilers, I think this is one I can hold out for.
bouncingbrick
10-08-11, 03:05 PM
Did anyone see Bryan Cranston on Letterman last night? His hint about the final shot of the season was very interesting.
@ filmgirlinterrupted, he also almost confirmed your suspicions that he would never come back from the dark side. He is indeed becoming full-on villain.
ash_is_the_gal
10-08-11, 03:11 PM
I'm still annoyed I'll have to wait 2 days post-air to see it!
why 2 days?
filmgirlinterrupted
10-09-11, 05:11 PM
Holy crap I've been staring at the clock all day! I do think this will be the BEST finale in the show's history so far. It's definitely been my favorite season.
6 more hours to go :D
Austruck
10-09-11, 10:56 PM
Five minutes!
ash_is_the_gal
10-09-11, 10:59 PM
thank god you posted, Austruck. i almost forgot!
MovieMan8877445
10-09-11, 11:49 PM
I don't know what to say, and it's not even over yet.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:05 AM
Told ya soooooooooooooooooo
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:08 AM
One outta two ain't bad! :)
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:09 AM
The real question is: Was I the only one who thought EVER SO BRIEFLY that Gus was a Terminator-type robot (like Schwarzenegger) when he walked out of that room and turned his head?
:D
MovieMan8877445
10-10-11, 12:10 AM
They killed him off in a brutal way, but it was very much needed.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:12 AM
it was the best. i didn't think about that nursing home angle at all. they successfully blew me away yet again... no pun intended.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:13 AM
still wondering how they got those lily of the valley red seeds to that kid, though. thoughts?
MovieMan8877445
10-10-11, 12:17 AM
Yeah, I don't know. I guess we're just going to have to wait until next season to find out.
Another thing, where's Mike at? I kept waiting for him to pop up at the last second, but nothing.
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:21 AM
Not the seeds, the berries. And having had little kids, I know they'll eat anything! Wouldn't take much.
A few stray thoughts:
-- Walt seemed genuinely relieved that Brock was all right. I wonder if he guessed at an amount that might sicken him but not kill him, but was worried it had been too much. He was definitely relieved.
But I admit that the shock they hoped to achieve with people like me worked. It was supposed to be a twist ending, and for me, it was. Bravo to the writers!
-- Where is Mike? Kept waiting for him to appear. Thought at the end on the parking garage roof that, when they cut to some angle shot up from one level lower that Mike was hiding out down there watching Walt, but apparently not. Ought to be interesting when Mike comes back. Because he'll be back.
-- So where IS the ricin cigarette? It's still missing, right?
-- We're left unsure of Skyler's reaction to Walt's admission that he won. I kept waiting for her to smile or drop the phone or something, but we didn't see it.
-- I did begin to wonder about Walt in the beginning when he called the neighbor to go over and check the stove. He was willing to send her in ahead of him to flush out the bad guys. That made me wonder what else he is now capable of.
-- I assume that Hank will now be vindicated about Gus ... and that he'll think he got his Heisenberg. Except that what happens when they find Gus's car in the hospital parking garage? Will Hank start to make connections with Jesse and Gus?
----
I love that the ending of this season felt satisfying ... and yet there are obviously SO many new ways they can go.
Next season is next summer. Already, I can't wait. :)
MovieMan8877445
10-10-11, 12:24 AM
I don't think Walt is going to make it by the end of the final season. I think at this point he's going to die one way or another by the final episode next season.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:24 AM
gah. sorry, i'm still all glowy that i was right and you were wrong about the poisoning. this might last me until right around the time season 5 starts up.
:D
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:27 AM
Ha ha... Do I get any brownie points for having guessed very early how they were going to use the nursing home angle?
And that I knew the bell was going to be the rig for the bomb?
I'll admit this too: It doesn't even bother me that I was wrong about that one thing. Because it was gloriously great the way they ended it. Again, bravo!
BTW, I was right about Gus dying. Sheesh, people. LOL
Beyond. Redemption.
Many more thoughts tomorrow. But for now, suffice to say that I was not disappointed, and yes...
The real question is: Was I the only one who thought EVER SO BRIEFLY that Gus was a Terminator-type robot (like Schwarzenegger) when he walked out of that room and turned his head?
...I thought that for half a moment, too.
"GUS IS SKYNET!"
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:31 AM
i always knew Gus was gonzo. it had to be that way. it just had to. i think Jesse has more of a chance of surviving than Walt does at this point, though.
i loved seeing them working together again. when Walt came in with the gun and said "Gus is dead" it looked like the two of them were about to have a father/son embrace or something. what an emotionally charged scene that was.
it also made me kinda sad when Jesse was all, "so i guess Gus didn't poison him after all... but, but he still had to go, right? right, Walt?"
poor Jesse. :(
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:32 AM
Beyond. Redemption.
Many more thoughts tomorrow. But for now, suffice to say that I was not disappointed, and yes...
...I thought that for half a moment, too.
"GUS IS SKYNET!"
Ha ha ha--- Gus IS Skynet! LOL
As for being beyond redemption: Theologically, in the real world, I don't believe that.
However, for the purposes of this story, I think you're right. Whether or not he DIES at the end of the series is a separate question, but I don't see him coming back from this. I would have said, maybe if one of his kids dies, that might do it, but right now there's nobody left to kill any of them, so that seems like a moot point now.
So, it's pretty much over for Walt's conscience. The only questions now are about Jesse, Walt's family, and whether Walt dies or ends up in prison.
MovieMan8877445
10-10-11, 12:34 AM
Mike's still not dead, and he was very loyal to Gus so I want to see where that is going to go. I'm sure Jesse could convince him to just join along with them for now, but once Jesse finds out about the poison, then all hell is going to break loose.
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:34 AM
Ash, yes, when Jesse still had to be convinced that GUS had to die, it made me realize just how soft-hearted Jesse still is.
Now I think viewers root for Jesse instead of Walt and only hope Walt doesn't carry him down any further.
What a great season finale!
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:35 AM
yeah, Walt better get rid of that plant from his backyard. he couldn't have done it without Jesse, that's for sure.
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:36 AM
MM, you gotta think Walt will be smart enough to get RID of that plant on his back patio. Frankly, I wonder why anyone with kids would even HAVE that plant in their back yard! But still, it has to go or it'll be evidence for someone later.
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:37 AM
Ha ha, Ash, for once we're all on the same page here. :)
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:38 AM
the whole Skylar thing has me intrigued. remember, the Ted thing hasn't been tied up yet. this might come back to haunt her, and she'll need to do what she can to save herself and her family. i'm wondering, now that she knows what Walt is really capable of... that he's basically a cold-hearted killer (she didn't know that til now, did she?)... will she end up turning on him before the series is over?
MovieMan8877445
10-10-11, 12:40 AM
MM, you gotta think Walt will be smart enough to get RID of that plant on his back patio. Frankly, I wonder why anyone with kids would even HAVE that plant in their back yard! But still, it has to go or it'll be evidence for someone later.
I mean, of course he is. If he can plan all of this out perfectly, then he has to be smart enough to get rid of the plant, but it's has to lead back to him somehow. I don't think they would've showed us that as the final image of the season if it wasn't going to have some significance in the next season.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 12:41 AM
Ha ha, Ash, for once we're all on the same page here. :)
i think you and i were always pretty much on the same page before, except for that one thing. which, by the way, i was right about. you were wrong.
dead.
wrong.
okay, sorry. hehe. this is fun!
Austruck
10-10-11, 12:48 AM
Side note: If things were reversed, I would have mentioned it once. Just saying. (Meanie.)
MM, I thought perhaps the only significance of showing that image at the end was to confirm to us the twist ending of Walt having poisoned Brock. Doesn't really NEED any more significance than that. But I fully expect to see it disappear starting next season. If it's still there, Walt's an idiot.
Well, we already know Walt's turning into an idiot, but you know what I mean. :)
Rewatching now with hubby, who just got home from work. This oughtta be fun, to see how much he guesses along the way. (He's pretty good at this stuff.)
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 01:05 AM
i just rewatched the bomb scene. i'm trying to figure out how exactly that worked. how was the bell connected? and how did Gus know about it before he even starting pushing the bell?
Austruck
10-10-11, 01:19 AM
We're almost up to that part now, so I'll pay close attention. But it seemed to me that Gus picked up on the fact that the bell didn't sound. That Hector tapped it but nothing happened.
Gus was already concerned that it was a trap, of course. So it wouldn't have taken much more for him to know something was out of place, and therefore the source of the danger.
Austruck
10-10-11, 01:28 AM
Hey, I wonder: Do you think that syringe that Gus was going to use on Hector had the ricin in it?
Austruck
10-10-11, 01:29 AM
Other stray thoughts: As soon as Gus said on the phone to his henchman, "I'll do it," I knew he was dead. Hubris.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 01:31 AM
Hey, I wonder: Do you think that syringe that Gus was going to use on Hector had the ricin in it?
wouldn't that have been pretty stupid, though? unless you think it was his plan to have it traced back to Jesse somehow? though, i guess this is all moot now.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 01:33 AM
i do love the way Gus dies - all coming out straightening his tie and stuff. a chill bro all hung up on appearances up to the very end.
Austruck
10-10-11, 01:35 AM
Remember how ricin works and why they were going to use it on Gus: With an old guy, he'd just develop a fever and about two days later would die.
Nobody in that nursing home would question the old guy's death.
The only concern would be if he rang his bell and used his board to tell the nurses what happened....
Ehh, it was just a stray thought.
Oh, and in the bomb scene, Gus definitely doesn't notice till the bell doesn't go off the way it should.
Austruck
10-10-11, 01:36 AM
i do love the way Gus dies - all coming out straightening his tie and stuff. a chill bro all hung up on appearances up to the very end.
Yeah, it was actually a lot funnier this second time, too. I'm a sicko. LOL
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 02:08 AM
i still say Ted's death was the funniest so far. my boyfriend and i lmao'ed.
Brodinski
10-10-11, 10:29 AM
Hmm, I'm satisfied. I thought S3 finale was better, but this was pretty good too.
I'll make a prediction right now:
series finale: Hank finally figures out that Heisenberg is Walt and while he and his DEA buddies are racing to Walt's house, he is shot by Jesse, accompanied by Mike, when Jesse finally found out that it was Walt who deliberately poisoined Brock.
Right now, questions:
Where is the ricin cigarette?
Where is Mike and when will he come back?
Will Walt and Jesse keep cooking?
How will Skylar react now that she pretty much knows Walt is a stone cold killer?
How will Ted's death be dealt with by the poh-leece?
More to come, no time now.
Man. Okay, I'm just gonna go scattershot, because it's the only way to start. Gonna do random thoughts, Walt arc stuff, and then next season speculation.
RANDOM
1) It's probably a little goofy that Gus is still standing and adjust his tie before falling over...but I'll live with it, if only because it was badass, and it gave me that four-second period where I thought "WHAT THE CRAP? WHY WON'T HE DIE?!"
2) Read an interview with Giancarlo Esposito, who plays Gus, where he insightfully points out that Gus' death mirrored his personality: quiet, reserved, tense, followed by a sudden explosion of violence. Nice.
3) Gus' spidey sense makes more sense now. Jesse told him Brock was poisoned in a fairly accusatory manner. Since Gus didn't do it, this is naturally going to get him wondering who could have, and once he does that, and realizes he's been brought into the open and left his car alone, and there are lots of vantage points to observe the garage from...well, it looks way more plausible now. In an interview Vince Gilligan said he thinks it works either way, and I think he's right, but it definitely works better this way. Gus would've spent that whole trip back to the garage wondering what was going on with Brock and who might have done it, and why.
4) Courtney had an observation I'm not sure anyone else has picked up on: Tyrus didn't sweep Tio's room for explosives with that wand, he just checked for wires, IE: surveillance. This makes the garage spidey sense a little easier to swallow, as well: he might have just been worried about a bug on his car. That was a major plot point this season, anyway. This means he had lots of reasons to walk away: a bomb, a bug, a mic, whatever. He didn't need to pinpoint one, just to realize that it could have been any of them.
5) Totally agree with Aus: when he sent the neighbor in to check his house (played by Vince Gilligan's mom, by the way), that was a huge hint as to what he was capable of. In fact, the entire episode was: he brings a bomb into the Pediatric ward of the hospital, has a little old lady next door risk her life, sticks a bomb on an old guy's wheelchair (even if it's with his permission, he couldn't have been POSITIVE no one else would've been hurt by the blast...what if someone was hit by the door when it flew off?), and poisons a child. Oh, and he blows up the laundry place, too, and probably couldn't have been 100% positive that wouldn't hurt anyone, either, even after pulling the fire alarm. The whole episode is Walt putting other people in danger for his own ends.
WALT
I think all discussion about how redeemable Walt is ended last night. I understand what Aus said about believing people are redeemable in a theological sense, and I do, too. But just in terms of gauging where this series is going, based on all we've seen, Gilligan's comments and general life philosophy, and what makes narrative sense based on what's come before, it has to end badly for him. He had to turn all the way. This doesn't rule out a spiritual redemption, but I think it has to be accompanied by a material death, either literally or figuratively (life in prison and/or the people around him getting hurt).
So while the Lily of the Valley thing was a nice twist (though the very split-second they cut to his backyard, I knew what they were zooming in on and why), it's not surprising in a meta sense. In fact, I feel stupid for not predicting it; I've always figured he'd get there, I just wondered whether or not it would be this soon.
What was surprising, if you ask me, is how well Walt lied to Jessie in episode 12 ("End Times") when he convinced him that Gus must have poisoned Brock. This is a big deal, people: Walt has been a really, really crappy liar in the past. When his back is to the wall he panics and stumbles and tosses out any crazy thing he can think of. Think of his interactions with Hank this year, for example. But, as one reviewer put it, the fact that Walt is a bad liar doesn't mean Heisenberg is. Once Walt made up his mind to break that bad, he lied seamlessly and forcefully to Jesse, and it worked. This is a new thing for him.
Speaking of which, two additional thoughts about that: first, his whole "DO IT" thing when Jesse was about to shoot him makes way more sense knowing that he's guilty. At the time I assumed he didn't poison Brock (because I assumed it was still Ricin and while Walt is willing to risk a child's life, that's still different than actually taking it), I thought it was a weird way to be defiant. It sounded like something a guilty man would do. And whaddya know? It was.
Second thought: this feels very much like the end of [i]Apocalypse Now[/b]. The idea that Walt had to become a genuinely bad person in order to take down someone as evil as Gus is very Kurtzian, isn't it?
NEXT YEAR
Brodinski has some really good questions there, I think. I'll bank on a few things for super-early predictions. But not many. But I think:
1) Mike will be a problem next year. A lot of Gus' underlings, I'm sure, will run off and hide from the investigation that will surely follow and just mind their own business now than their employer is dead, but we've seen that Mike has deeper loyalties, as evidenced by him punching Walt in the face when he approached him about turning on Gus.
2) Remember that German multinational corporation they kept talking about that helped fund Gus' operation, or something? They'd make a pretty natural foil (or partner, or both) for the last 16 episodes if Walt tries to become the chief supplier of meth in the southwest. There's no Gus and no cartel, so the sky's the limit for Walt. But methinks he won't partner with everyone. He's learned the hard way how that goes. He needs to be the guy, and that means doing this stuff himself. That's bound to ruffle a few feathers, and given how everyone else is cleared out his only real rivals are either the German corporation or the DEA. There's nobody else who can bring him down for awhile, at least in a drug-dealing sense.
Of course, it's possible Walt is never caught by either, and is brought down by someone close to him, like Jesse. Imagine Jesse finds out about both Brock AND Jane (though I think the former would be enough to get the job done).
That's about all I feel confident about: that Mike will matter, that Walt will expand somehow, and that the only logical rivals to his drug kingpin-ness are the DEA and whoever was dealing with Gus overseas. Doesn't mean it will be either (it could be all about Jesse and his family, or something), but if they want a conflict based on drug supremacy in the area, I think those are the choices.
One last thought: the finale felt like it sort of tied everything up AND left a lot of loose ends. By that I mean, as Brodinski pointed out, a lot could pop up. But only one or two things are things that MUST pop up. It's not like the end of season 3, where something very specific has happened and you know you're going to get an immediate response. There's no one thing in last night's episode that we KNOW is going to be front and center at the start of season 5. That's really something. They've given themselves a ton to work with, but almost all of it is completely optional.
I'm sure I'll think of more later.
Oh, and 4.5. Very satisfied. I don't know if I can rank seasons, but I will say that this doesn't feel like any kind of noteworthy dropoff from any other year, even last year, which would probably be the best. It all feels of a whole, and I couldn't rank them beyond that first choice even if I tried. An entirely satisfying season.
Thought of two more things!
1) Lots of cameras around hospitals, and you've gotta wonder if Gus' little camera laptop setup in the back room of Los Pollos Hermanos archives any of that stuff. Not to mention the guys who questioned Jesse saw Walt sitting with him. It's really not going to take much for someone to see him in just one of these places and start looking closer.
2) Who else wants the series to end with Walt being sentenced to life in prison based on the testimony of the little old lady in the nursing room window saying "Helloooo!" to him while he hid outside Tio's room?
bouncingbrick
10-10-11, 01:13 PM
Hmm, I'm satisfied. I thought S3 finale was better, but this was pretty good too.
I'll make a prediction right now:
series finale: Hank finally figures out that Heisenberg is Walt and while he and his DEA buddies are racing to Walt's house, he is shot by Jesse, accompanied by Mike, when Jesse finally found out that it was Walt who deliberately poisoined Brock.
Right now, questions:
Where is the ricin cigarette?
Gone, Walt "aquired" it when the big security guy patted Jesse down, or at some point. He had to get it for the plan to work. Jesse will figure this out, leading to a rift between them.
Where is Mike and when will he come back?
When it's needed to move the show forward. It will appear that he will do in Walt for revenge, but he won't. I think he's got enough connections to continue in his line of work.
Will Walt and Jesse keep cooking?
No, not unless Walt needs to prove to everyone that he's the best Meth maker. I believe he's done cooking. More on that later.
How will Skylar react now that she pretty much knows Walt is a stone cold killer?
This one I don't know about. Part of me thinks she will understand that it was Gus or her family and she will forgive him for this one. But it obviously plants a seed of doubt to his level of...sanity?
How will Ted's death be dealt with by the poh-leece?
Did Ted really die? If he did why would his death be connected to anyone in the show? His character is gone completely from the program. We won't hear about him again because we don't need to.
I predict that season five, being the last season, will be like season two of Dexter. For those not familiar with Dexter, season two was all about Dexter trying to not get caught. The assassination of Gus will obviously be pinned on the cartel, but the DEA will know that Gus had people alive after his death because the lab was cleaned after the explosion. The DEA might not think that it was "Heisenberg" that did it, but Hank will know. I predict that he will figure out that it's Walt but he will be torn about what to do, he seems to honestly care about Walt. His utter faith in the law will be tested.
I don't think Walt will die. As I said earlier in the thread, he has to live with the villain he has become. He has done some dispicable things and now that he is basically safe he has to face the things he's done. The threat of death is over for the White family, now it will all be the danger of getting caught.
My predictions.
By the way, great season finale!
Three more things!
1) There were some who observed that the shot at the end of "Crawl Space" was meant to evoke the idea of Walt being buried in a grave. I agree. But I agree further that this did more than simply imply that he was, well, really close to getting himself killed, but that it also marked the moment that "Walt" died and "Heisenberg" took his place. Given that he poisons a kid in the very next episode, and given what transpired last night, that looks pretty dead-on.
2) Related to the above: taken in this light, I like another reviewer's observation that, when he says "I won," it's not only Walt saying he beat Gus, but Heisenberg saying he beat Walt.
3) The episode was titled "Face Off." Get it? Because his face blew off? Also appropriate to have such a conniving character, who had such distinct halves of his life compartmentalized the way he did, literally die with two faces.
Oooo, forgot! You know the whole Gus/Terminator thing? Jesse compared Gus to the Terminator in the episode where he walked out in the open while the cartel's sniper was firing.
Gahhh. THERE'S SO MUCH.
Austruck
10-10-11, 01:57 PM
Thought of two more things!
1) Lots of cameras around hospitals, and you've gotta wonder if Gus' little camera laptop setup in the back room of Los Pollos Hermanos archives any of that stuff. Not to mention the guys who questioned Jesse saw Walt sitting with him. It's really not going to take much for someone to see him in just one of these places and start looking closer.
2) Who else wants the series to end with Walt being sentenced to life in prison based on the testimony of the little old lady in the nursing room window saying "Helloooo!" to him while he hid outside Tio's room?
I meant to hit pause last night while watching the quick scene of Gus at that laptop -- just to see if we could recognize all the spots he had under surveillance.
If any of them are, say, Walt's house, and if that laptop's seized and searched (which seems entirely likely now), there is likely to be a lot of damning evidence on there for both Jesse and Walt.
I'm still trying to figure out how Walt got the ricin cigarette away from Jesse. Remember that Jesse said he'd switched it to a different pack that morning. If it was during the patdown, I think that was poorly done. That patdown was clumsy and wasn't finely tuned like a pickpocket procedure would have had to be. I mean, the whole pack was there except the one cigarette, right? HOW would the guy doing the patdown have known which one to get? Or do we assume there was a switch of one pack for another? How would he have known how many cigs to put in the switched pack? Just doesn't add up, but when else might Walt have gotten that cigarette?
Also, of course, that means that Saul was in on at least that part of things ... so I'm assuming Walt would have concocted some story for Saul (like, Jesse just not being responsible enough to carry something like that around).
As for Walt's lying: He wouldn't have been so caught off-guard when Jesse came to him, would he? He lies terribly when it's off the cuff, but he would have thought this scenario was possible and would have prepared for it. Heck, he already WAS prepared for it since he knew in his head what story he thought Jesse might come up with on his own.
One side note: I just love that we still see the typical bumbling Walt from earlier seasons. The entire scene with him breaking into Saul's office and falling through the broken door and then falling back out was just hilarious.
Add on the fact that he didn't "get" where she was coming from when she said the door might cost $20,000, and you get a glimpse of the old naive Walt ... who is still in there, waiting to naively make trouble for the Heisenberg Walt next year.
As for Skyler, I'm thinking she will totally be on board with Walt's badassness. At least on a practical level for a while. Imagine how she must see him now -- she's thought him weak and mild-mannered for so long, and hasn't always liked that about him, and now she's asking in almost an awed voice, "Was that YOU?"
He's proven to her that he IS indeed the danger. She can hear it in his voice: "I won." They're safe now. He's pulled off a bigger scheme than she's been doing.
And of course, we've seen plenty of how adept Skyler is at adapting to Walt's situation: the car wash coverup, the money-laundering, the amazing gambling story that covers everything so well, the sexy dress-up to go to the meeting with the IRS about Ted (and the playing up the dumb blonde part so well that they bought it), sending goons after Ted without blinking, just because she knows she has access to them via Saul/Walt connections....
She is her own badass, though she's a little more forward-thinking and practical than Walt. And, I think her feelings of adrenaline about some of it will fade quickly with her. I think there will be conflict between her and Walt at the beginning of next season about whether he retires and goes full-time for the car wash or not. Her mother instincts are too strong for her to initially condone Walt as a drug kingpin, even if she does currently admire his badassness.
Oh, and I know we're talking a lot about Jesse possibly turning on Walt, but surely Skyler could. If either of those kids comes to any harm, she will be all over Walt like white on rice.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-10-11, 01:57 PM
Did the Season 1 finale foreshadow the death of Gus Fring?
The teddy bear from the plane crash falls into the pool. The bear has en eyeball missing, and half of its face is burned.
http://blogs.amctv.com/breaking-bad/BB_Video_Crash_Code_325x200.jpg
Just a thought...
AHHH. THAT'S MORE.
Even more: just read someone else's recap where they point out that, in the Bible, the Lily of the Valley is a symbol of the Second Coming, and is sometimes a symbol of humility in works of art. The first is appropriate (there's a new boss in town now), and the latter is deeply ironic.
Austruck
10-10-11, 02:02 PM
Yoda, you gotta get those people posting over here, because it's obvious we have very little to say on our own about that finale. LOL :D
I'm still trying to figure out how Walt got the ricin cigarette away from Jesse. Remember that Jesse said he'd switched it to a different pack that morning. If it was during the patdown, I think that was poorly done. That patdown was clumsy and wasn't finely tuned like a pickpocket procedure would have had to be. I mean, the whole pack was there except the one cigarette, right? HOW would the guy doing the patdown have known which one to get? Or do we assume there was a switch of one pack for another? How would he have known how many cigs to put in the switched pack? Just doesn't add up, but when else might Walt have gotten that cigarette?
Based on what I'm reading that appears to be the "correct" interpretation. The patdown was intentionally clumsy, which makes switching easier, I think. And I think it was a whole new pack. It doesn't have to match the number of cigarettes, because Jesse realizing it's been changed somehow is part of the plan, anyway.
Also, of course, that means that Saul was in on at least that part of things ... so I'm assuming Walt would have concocted some story for Saul (like, Jesse just not being responsible enough to carry something like that around).
Or Saul just recognizes that Walt is a way bigger threat to him than Jesse is. He's terrified of Gus, too, so he's got a stake in this.
But yeah, remember Saul's frantic messages to Jesse? That was definitely to get him to come in so they could pat him down.
As for Walt's lying: He wouldn't have been so caught off-guard when Jesse came to him, would he? He lies terribly when it's off the cuff, but he would have thought this scenario was possible and would have prepared for it. Heck, he already WAS prepared for it since he knew in his head what story he thought Jesse might come up with on his own.
Exactly. He was a bit too good at it, which is exactly why some of us thought he wasn't lying. In reality, it was a change in him, and indicated that he wasn't caught off-guard at all. Whether or not he can do it at will, I dunno, but it's not something we're used to seeing from him.
One side note: I just love that we still see the typical bumbling Walt from earlier seasons. The entire scene with him breaking into Saul's office and falling through the broken door and then falling back out was just hilarious.
Add on the fact that he didn't "get" where she was coming from when she said the door might cost $20,000, and you get a glimpse of the old naive Walt ... who is still in there, waiting to naively make trouble for the Heisenberg Walt next year.
Yup. He's bad, but not a badass. He's no Gus. He's still making this up as he goes along and screwing up left and right. He only comes out alive each time because of sheer nerve and the fact that his bumbling leaves him perpetually underestimated.
As for Skyler, I'm thinking she will totally be on board with Walt's badassness. At least on a practical level for a while. Imagine how she must see him now -- she's thought him weak and mild-mannered for so long, and hasn't always liked that about him, and now she's asking in almost an awed voice, "Was that YOU?"
He's proven to her that he IS indeed the danger. She can hear it in his voice: "I won." They're safe now. He's pulled off a bigger scheme than she's been doing.
And of course, we've seen plenty of how adept Skyler is at adapting to Walt's situation: the car wash coverup, the money-laundering, the amazing gambling story that covers everything so well, the sexy dress-up to go to the meeting with the IRS about Ted (and the playing up the dumb blonde part so well that they bought it), sending goons after Ted without blinking, just because she knows she has access to them via Saul/Walt connections....
She is her own badass, though she's a little more forward-thinking and practical than Walt. And, I think her feelings of adrenaline about some of it will fade quickly with her. I think there will be conflict between her and Walt at the beginning of next season about whether he retires and goes full-time for the car wash or not. Her mother instincts are too strong for her to initially condone Walt as a drug kingpin, even if she does currently admire his badassness.
Oh, and I know we're talking a lot about Jesse possibly turning on Walt, but surely Skyler could. If either of those kids comes to any harm, she will be all over Walt like white on rice.
The Skyler thing can go a lot of different ways. She might turn on him eventually, but not at first. In fact, if you ask me, that's far and away the most elegant way to use Ted's apparent death: if Skyler feels like she has blood on her hands, she's way more likely to go along with whatever Walt suggests, and way more likely to sympathize and turn a blind eye to things. If she feels responsible for Ted's death (and she should, to some degree), that puts her "in it" in a way that could easily stop her from feeling much obligation to turn on Walt.
Yoda, you gotta get those people posting over here, because it's obvious we have very little to say on our own about that finale. LOL :D
Hehe, nah, most of it is my own thoughts, but I make a point to mention when a good idea is someone else's. And it's often too good not to share.
Brodinski
10-10-11, 02:25 PM
To one of the coldest and most calculated badass MoFo's in TV history:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/Lord_Conflict/gusatmebro.gif
I salute you!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_y41oJ-PJaxU/S-yjOvwMscI/AAAAAAAAADY/_wRk6ollPB8/s1600/beer_toast1.jpg
R.I.P.
Austruck
10-10-11, 02:46 PM
All this talk has convinced me to rewatch the entire series. So I just hauled my Wii upstairs and am now starting from episode 1, season 1 on Netflix....
(You guys keep referring to older, specific episodes and I can't remember what's what since we've watched it in real time since the beginning.)
First episode just starting now.... Will watch while I'm working at my desk. Already I'm laughing at Walt in his underwear. LOL
I nagged Grace about it for a few weeks, and then Addie dived in instead, wholeheartedly endorsed it, and that convinced Grace to watch season 1 recently, so now she's in. I'm going to use that as an excuse to watch some of the rest with her.
Austruck
10-10-11, 04:11 PM
I'm amazed at how on-spot they were right from the beginning. You know how series just naturally change/morph just out of a sense of centripetal (sp?) force?
BB doesn't seem that way at all. What has changed about the main characters is precisely the sort of things that would change them given the situations they've found themselves in. No more. Nothing entirely out of believability.
Love this show. Although I'm still trying to get used to Walt with hair and a brostache instead of shaved head and a goatee.
Austruck
10-10-11, 04:20 PM
Ha ha ha! End of the very first episode, when Walt's feeling amorous and flips Skyler over, she gasps and says, "Walt, is that you?"
She said virtually the same thing -- in the same tone of voice -- in this season's finale last night when she's asking Walt if he is behind the death of Gus and Hector: "Walt, was that you?"
Dunno if they meant it, down to the same tone of awe in her voice, but it's a nice touch.
Yeah, it makes sense. On one hand, you really can't script it all out in advance: you lose chances to improve things when you see how they're being executed, or when you spot an interesting idea that hadn't occurred to you before. On the other hand, if you fly completely by the seat of your pants, it can become a mess.
Breaking Bad seems like a really nice balance of the two. They have one clear, overarching theme for the series (Walt becomes the villain) and a few guiding principles (his pride always wins, his actions infect people around him), and as long as they have those in mind the series as a whole will feel awfully cohesive even if they call a few audibles
Ha ha ha! End of the very first episode, when Walt's feeling amorous and flips Skyler over, she gasps and says, "Walt, is that you?"
She said virtually the same thing -- in the same tone of voice -- in this season's finale last night when she's asking Walt if he is behind the death of Gus and Hector: "Walt, was that you?"
Dunno if they meant it, down to the same tone of awe in her voice, but it's a nice touch.
Good call. I'm looking forward to going back over it while waiting for season 5, too.
The most instructive part of the first episode, though, is definitely his soliloquy to chemistry, where he actually describes his own narrative: "...growth, then decay, then transformation."
I think the transformation is complete.
ash_is_the_gal
10-10-11, 07:10 PM
yup. i'm rewatching the series, too, with my parents. i'm not sure how they feel about it yet, but they've heard me go on about it so much. we're almost to the end of the first season. there are lots of little things i noticed way more this time around. like the episode right after Skyler finds out Walt has cancer, she has a sort of "intervention" with Hank and Marie, where they all take turns saying what they want to say to Walt (via the "talking pillow", lol), and Hank makes a lot of gambling metaphors. he says something like, "i'll admit it, you've been dealt a sh*tty hand... but lots of times, a sh*t hand can be a full house. you just have to be willing to take the gamble."
Pyro Tramp
10-11-11, 01:43 PM
Ok, before I read through all the posts just want to say **** IMDB message boards and masquerading theories which are actually spoilers. I thought the Tio bit was a far-fetched reading it but it worked well and was built up so nicely it made sense but was still unexpected. I rewatched the previous episode beforehand and when I saw him spin the gun and it pointed at the plant and the camera specifically focussed on it I KNEW Walt did the poisoning. So that wasn't such a surprise. Glad I was right about not thinking Gus did it but still shocked Walt would do it. Gus' last moment, touch out of tone but a brilliant send off opposed to just a bang. Literally face OFF.
Thought Jesse and Walt's last scene had a lot of underlying tension preluding next Season. Mike has definitely and purposefully been kept out the picture for the season's showdown to come back and play a role, imo. I think Gus' work clearing out the Cartel etc has also intentionally left open a void Walt's meant to fill. The blowing of the laundry factory will definitely have the DEA backing Hank.
Austruck
10-11-11, 02:04 PM
Ash, I am still noticing a ton of things that continue to dovetail with Walt as he is now. Episode 7 of season 1 -- Walt's at a school meeting where they're discussing the theft of various beakers, etc. During the meeting, he's got his hand on Skyler's thigh under the table, and she's really into it. Then it cuts to them fooling around in his now-iconic Aztek.
Just afterwards, she says, "WHY is it so damn good?"
He looks away and says, "Because it's illegal."
And they cut to the opening credits.
Gosh, I love this show. :)
Austruck
10-12-11, 11:09 PM
I'm nearly done with season 1 on my rewatch. One thing struck me that we haven't discussed as a future possibility for next season: Walt's cancer could return. He could end up right where he started....
Don't know why that never occurred to me, except that it's been in remission long enough that it hasn't been part of any episodes for a long time. Still, that would be a plausible plot twist for next season (or the last season, if they're not one and the same).
ash_is_the_gal
10-12-11, 11:19 PM
actually... he was coughing a lot in the last few episodes. well. not a lot, but at weird moments. anyone else notice it? i wish i could remember the specifics, but i can't at the moment. i'll have to rewatch them.
bouncingbrick
10-13-11, 09:31 AM
The cancer was the catalyst for the bad things Walt has done over the course of the show. I think it would take a lot of the edge off of his character if he had the threat of the cancer haning over his head again. He's a far more compelling character when he's being bad without that looming over him. I don't expect it to return unless it's in the very last episode.
Austruck
10-13-11, 10:08 AM
It would be rather fitting, wouldn't it, for the show to go out with him finding out his cancer has returned -- perhaps with a vengeance this time. We'd get a sense that, even if Walt had gotten to a point where he felt no one could touch him and he was invincible, the cancer would come back as a reminder that he IS mortal after all, no matter what his inflated ego thinks.
To have the cancer-catalyst be his undoing would be a nice touch for the storyline. They could even leave it hanging at the end -- stage 4 or something and make it sound dire, but never tell us if he beats it this time. (But make it clear that he probably won't.)
Apologies for the incoherent post. I'm battling a fever since yesterday's flu shot. :(
The cancer is the ultimate judgment, the thing he can't outwit or kill when it becomes inconvenient for him. It is God's final word on his actions in a show that has made it clear it has a strong sense of cosmic justice, so yes, I'd find that very fitting. Especially given that he's become a cancer to those around him.
Pyro Tramp
10-13-11, 05:05 PM
Did anything ever come of the end of episode Fly?
filmgirlinterrupted
10-13-11, 08:06 PM
Did anything ever come of the end of episode Fly?
That depends on how you interpreted it.
To me, this episode was strangely comedic. Jesse and Walt play off of each other, and their conversation is reminiscent of a well-written stage play. I've heard some people compare "Fly" to The Sopranos' "Pine Barrens", as they are both 'bottle episodes.' Meaning, it was filmed on a low budget, it was set in one place, with a limited number of characters.
It was very psychological, but I don't think it advanced the plot/story.
I assume Pyro meant Walt's supposed confession. If so, then no, but when it first aired it merely seemed like Jesse didn't take what he said literally and therefore Walt didn't quite give anything away.
Pyro Tramp
10-14-11, 08:03 AM
No, I meant the final shot where Walt imagined seeing the fly when he was home. After Jesse's story about his relative who's cancer got to his brain and he kept seeing something that wasn't there (or something) and this was then what happened to Walt in the final shot; seemed to suggest Walt's cancer was returning yet don't recall any follow up....?
Sorry, should have made it clearer in my post.
filmgirlinterrupted
10-14-11, 07:32 PM
No, I meant the final shot where Walt imagined seeing the fly when he was home. After Jesse's story about his relative who's cancer got to his brain and he kept seeing something that wasn't there (or something) and this was then what happened to Walt in the final shot; seemed to suggest Walt's cancer was returning yet don't recall any follow up....?
Sorry, should have made it clearer in my post.
Mmkay, I see now...
Yeah, Walt sees another fly on the smoke detector as he's lying in bed that night. I took this as a literary allusion to Kafka's "Metamorphosis," somehow that fly represented Walt's own contamination. He was concerned about the batch that he and Jesse prepped, stating that it was "all contaminated." They finished the batch and went home, but it's clear that the contamination will follow Walt wherever he goes.
Austruck
10-16-11, 10:18 AM
While I'm rewatching the series, I've noticed something else. I know about attorney-client privilege, but does anyone else think that Skyler's divorce lawyer could be a sort of loose end? She took a hard stance against Walt and urged Skyler to leave and get outta there ASAP for her own good (legally and morally).
In the end not only does Skyler not do that, she ends up complicit in the crimes with Walt.
I know her attorney can't just tip off the cops, but is there any loose end here at all? Or is/was that wrapped up enough for it to simply fade away? I ask because we ended this current season with big news stories that are drug-related, and I wonder what her attorney is thinking when she's watching the news....
There are times when they can spill the beans, but it's usually when they have knowledge of a crime about to be perpetrated, so I'm thinking it's a dead end, not a loose end.
Yeah, dead end. She needs specific knowledge, and she's certainly not gonna get that. They've obviously used this sort of restriction twice to great effect (the other being Walt, with the psychiatrist in early season 2) to allow the characters to spill the beans without consequences for once.
christine
10-19-11, 03:38 PM
Can't remember if I've posted on this thread yet, but just watched the last ep of season 4 and I'm just blown away ! Me and my son have followed it since the beginning when it was screened in the UK on one of the cable channels ages ago. I've always loved the clear light of the photography and the framing of some of the shots is awesome, but even this beauty has got better and better till this last series, well I dunno how anyone can top that amazing look! I love everything about it and keep telling people to watch it!
Austruck
10-22-11, 07:21 PM
Ha ha ha! For some reason, Walter White is staking out my house!
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd446/Austruck/DSCN1640.jpg
I am somewhere around the beginning of season 3. Pretty great stuff so far, but I found the whole storyline with Jane to be pretty contrive. Also, some of Walt's conduct does not really follow what has come before, but I guess that's what the show is about?
I think season 2 is the weakest (though, to me, that just means it's awesome rather than super-ridicu-awesome), so I can relate on the whole Jane thing. It's important for Jesse's character, though, in lots of ways you're probably already seeing start to pay off.
Re: Walt's conduct. Feel free to elaborate; we're all spoiler-y up in here.
Yeah, I liked the season overall. I thought about this at lunch and i am trying to figure out the best way to put it. I guess I feel like the writers sort of went over a cliff with Walt and made him sort of irredeemable. I mean, killing the guy in the basement in season one or the whole Tuco situation...I can sort of reconcile that and equivocate here and there to redeem the characters. These guys that got killed were career criminal/sociopaths. Jane was an artist with a monkey on her back and Walt just sort of sat there and watched her die. I can't really reconcile that, I guess is what I am saying.
I understand the implications with Jesse and I have a feeling we are going to start seeing some sort of juxtaposition between Walt and Jesse as time goes on, as that makes sense from a writing standpoint, although I don't think Jesse will become an underachieving teacher, I think we will see their stations in life become similar to what the other person was maintaining when the show started. I am just not sure I will care what happens to Walt at that point, kind of like I don't care about what happened to Tuco. When I say care, I mean, they got what they deserved and I sort of shrugged and moved on.
It's really interesting how often that moment--when Walt lets Jane die--comes up in conversations I have with people about Breaking Bad. I'm beginning to think it's one of the biggest pivot points of the series. And how each person reacts to it says a lot about how they approached the show; I almost shrugged it off, because I'd already decided Walt was irredeemable, but most of the people I talk to hadn't written him off yet. Some not even after, because his act is still a passive one.
I guess the real question then (and this is something some of us talked about a few pages back in this very thread) is twofold: do you need to root for someone to enjoy the show, and if so, does that person have to be Walt? In my case, I don't really mind if nobody on the show is worth getting behind, but I realize this is probably a minority approach to most shows (definitely in general, and probably even among those who like to analyze them). I also think wanting to have a "side" to root for on a show is a perfectly valid way to watch them, though not one I require to really get into the story. I also felt, at that point in the show, Jesse had become pretty likable and was someone I could root for.
Another possible factor apart from this is expectation. If you treat Breaking Bad as an omniscient view of one man's gradual descent into sociopathy, it probably makes for a very different viewing experience than spending the first couple of seasons trying to find ways to reconcile Walt's decisions with the idea that he's still a fundamentally decent guy. The show creates a lot of cognitive dissonance with that expectation, and that could probably make the entire story frustrating.
Yeah, I actually don't need anyone to get behind at all, but that's just me. I think we chatted about this in the thread about that Affleck Heist flick, the name of which escapes me at the moment. I mean, I love anti-heroes and shows with good villains etc., but I just sort of thought it didn't follow with how they had established his character up until that point in the show. I want to mkention the juxtaposition again, but thinking about it, I guess jesse was never THAT bad, and more of a sideline/low-level crim that usually did more harm to himself than others. It's almost as if Walt pushed him over the line to becoming a hard criminal, which is he fought kicking and screaming, but now maybe Walt has awakened a sleeping giant? Or Jesse could clean up, who knows - that doesn't seem like it would make for a very imnteresting show, though, so that probably won't happen.
So, you're saying it was too evil for him given what had transpired before?
Not that it was too evil...above you state that it's easier to reconcile Walt's bahavior if you view his progression as a descent into sociopathy, but that would mean that at one point he was a stable, loving human being. If that is the case, I have trouble with the notion that all the events leading up to Jane's death changed Walt enough to have him sit and watch a young girl choke to death right before his eyes. It's as if he has the killer instinct and his humanity had dried up completely, which doesn't really follow for me, especially since he is a parent.
I mean, in the following episode, we have Walt ranting on the highway to a police officer about the safety of his children when "hellfire rained down from above." Obviously, he cares about the lives of his children.
Walt's killed before (which is why I presume he is irredeemable in your eyes, and I guess in mine, too), but the situation was different, considering that the guy in the basement clearly planned on killing him, so his life was threatened. That followed, in other words. It made sense that his character would kill that guy in that situation. Jane...not so much. I see the reasoning and why he did it, but I am not sure it follows quite as well with everything that came before and his conduct in other situations right around the same time period in the show.
That all makes sense. I think finding what he did with Jane to be a little shockingly indifferent is a totally valid complaint.
I will say that I think it's possible that the show did as well as it could have, though. There might not be a perfect way to take a relatively normal-seeming high school chemistry teacher and turn him into a meth kingpin without a couple moments that feel a little sudden. It might feel unnatural even when it happens in reality.
But they definitely tried to ease it in, and a lot of work went into it, I think. They show us a man who's been burying a deep frustration beneath the surface most of his adult life, who's been screwed over by his own pride and emasculated by his friends and family in all sorts of ways. And when he no longer has anything to lose, he snaps and all that built up macho bravado starts coming out. So it establishes that he has this anger and ambition in him that was forced down, and has been awakened.
Then, they introduce him to violence, first out of outright self-defense (the first episode), then sorta-kinda-self-defense (but in a situation of his own making) with Crazy Eight, where the defense aspect almost seemed like a way of allowing himself to kill him. And then he graduates to Jane, which is still not premeditated murder. It's a pretty dramatic transformation already, to be sure, and maybe it needed more. But you can definitely see the steps they took to try to build up to it.
But yeah, all that said, I can't really disagree if it still feels a little sudden. I can only say that it looks like, given the timeline, the show's writers realized they had a challenge and did take a lot of time to try to ramp up to the decay and transformation they were heading towards, whether it quite got the job done or not.
That all makes sense. I think finding what he did with Jane to be a little shockingly indifferent is a totally valid complaint.
I will say that I think it's possible that the show did as well as it could have, though. There might not be a perfect way to take a relatively normal-seeming high school chemistry teacher and turn him into a meth kingpin without a couple moments that feel a little sudden. It might feel unnatural even when it happens in reality.
But they definitely tried to ease it in, and a lot of work went into it, I think. They show us a man who's been burying a deep frustration beneath the surface most of his adult life, who's been screwed over by his own pride and emasculated by his friends and family in all sorts of ways. And when he no longer has anything to lose, he snaps and all that built up macho bravado starts coming out. So it establishes that he has this anger and ambition in him that was forced down, and has been awakened.
Then, they introduce him to violence, first out of outright self-defense (the first episode), then sorta-kinda-self-defense (but in a situation of his own making) with Crazy Eight, where the defense aspect almost seemed like a way of allowing himself to kill him. And then he graduates to Jane, which is still not premeditated murder. It's a pretty dramatic transformation already, to be sure, and maybe it needed more. But you can definitely see the steps they took to try to build up to it.
But yeah, all that said, I can't really disagree if it still feels a little sudden. I can only say that it looks like, given the timeline, the show's writers realized they had a challenge and did take a lot of time to try to ramp up to the decay and transformation they were heading towards, whether it quite got the job done or not.
Austruck
04-05-12, 01:35 PM
EDIT: huge season 4 spoilers follow!
The way I saw the Jane thing, and then of course, the stuff with the lily of the valley (was that the flower?), felt more to me as if Walt's definition of "self preservation" and "self defense" have totally ramped up to the point of absurdity. And if someone is threatening him now, he doesn't always react by lashing out directly at the person threatening him. He's justified using roundabout ways, and other people, to get rid of the threats.
Bear in mind he's increasingly had fewer good influences on him and his seared conscience as the show's progressed. When he and Skyler separated, she and the family weren't the stabilizing daily influences they used to be. And even when Skyler was brought on board, she ended up being a voice for expediency rather than goodness.
And now that Walt's tasted "king of the hill" status by eliminating the biggest, baddest guy on the block, well, all bets are off.
I also think that, if one watches the series back to back instead of weekly with long hiatuses (hiati?), changes in Walt might seem a lot more rushed. What represents well over a year of time feels different when watched in a matter of days or weeks.
Yes?
KasperKristensen
04-05-12, 01:43 PM
Not really. I found Walt pressed by circumstance to change in the way and with the velocity he did. Everything he did, I felt like he had to. Even Jane, who had to go otherwise Jesse would probably OD.
I forgot about that angle. He might have partially rationalized the Jane thing as saving Jesse from what would've likely been a life of drug use followed by almost certain death. A stretch, but then, rationalizations are supposed to be.
The Prestige
05-17-12, 03:02 PM
I've only read the first couple of pages on here and then stopped because I didn't want to spoil things for myself.
Me and my girlfriend are up to Season 2: Episode 4..at first I thought that the show was just 'alright', and she felt the same way. But we have pretty much changed my opinion since. I can finally say that I can see what the fuss is about now. Quality stuff. Will probably finish season 2 by this time next week. If what I heard about the show going from strength to strength is true, then i'm in for a big treat it seems :-)
Yeah, I thought it was pretty brilliant all the way through, but it hits a whole new level in season 3. And season 4 is arguably as good or better. And yes, you're definitely hitting the best stretch of the entire series, in my opinion, in the second half of season 3.
The Prestige
05-17-12, 03:35 PM
Sorry I meant season TWO! Not season 3. But I certainly can't wait to see season 3 - 4 now after your comments, Yoda..
The Prestige
05-18-12, 05:00 AM
Just watched season 2: episode 4. Man, i'm loving Walt (and even Jesse) as characters. Thing with Walt is despite his circumstances, he isn't just this cute mature guy living out a mid-life crises, he genuinely wants to do the best he can for his family, and that's extremely admirable...but man did he come off as a little bit arseholish in that last episode.
Oh man. Oh man.
I love what you're saying. So good. I can't wait to see what you say later.
Powderfinger
05-18-12, 09:33 AM
Oh man. Oh man.
I love what you're saying. So good. I can't wait to see what you say later.
Hey Yoda! Did you go to school with a lot of Italian students?
Powderfinger
05-18-12, 09:51 AM
I...what?
Went to school with a lot of Italian descent students? I heard that Pittsburgh have a lot of Italian people! I really don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I don't mind the question, it's just so out of place; I assumed it was connected to either a) Breaking Bad or b) something I'd just said in this thread. I guess it's neither? :laugh:
Anyway, I was mostly homeschooled. But I've spent lots of time around the campuses here and haven't noticed lots of Italian students, no. Not that I necessarily would. Fair number of Polish people around where I grew up, I suppose.
Powderfinger
05-18-12, 10:15 AM
No worries Yoda, just curious that's all.
Powderfinger
05-18-12, 10:31 AM
Anyway, I was mostly homeschooled.
Really homeschooled, my sister wanted to do that, but she didn't.
Another question! Sorry. Who educated you...Mother, Father, Nan, Pop, Aunty?
I'll reply via profile comment, so as not to steer the BB discussion off course. :)
The Prestige
05-21-12, 06:36 AM
So i've watched three more episodes since, and the developments having been very interesting indeed. Even Hank, a character who I found one of the lesser interesting at the beginning of the show, had scenes in which were tense.
This alpha male, bollocks busting geezer actually seemed vulnerable for once. I couldn't tell whether or not he was having a heart attack or anxiety problems in the lift scene, but since that moment he seems a bit quieter. Also, seeing him out of his element in a predominantly Spanish speaking environment did make me sympathise with him even more. Speaking of which, those GRUESOME images with the tortoise and bomb were pretty unexpected. It's definitely giving me a sense that the show could just about pull off anything.
The Walt/Jesse business/relationship goes from strength to strength. Although, it's becoming pretty clear to me who is the big boss of the ship is. I've notice that Walt is extremely strict about setting his own boundaries and not having Jesse contact him when the situation doesn't meet his needs..yet is perfectly at ease going to Jesse's house uninvited at god knows what in the morning and ordering Jesse to 'take care of it'??? It's like Walt doesn't even recognise that other people have their own boundaries, too and I think that it's indicative as to how superior he feels to Jesse.
Again, I must say that this protagonist is one of the most exciting and deceptively complicated characters yet, but these few episodes have made him seem very unlikeable at times, which I find even more exciting. In fact, this season has changed my views on season 1 a bit. I thought that the show was alright, but now I see that that season was merely an introduction and genesis to what I think the show is becoming. I think that the most striking scene besides that cunning series of lies that Walt tells Skylar at the end of the episode 7 is the meeting he has with his ex.
It's an odd scene for me because on one hand I was kinda cheering Walt on as he apologised and felt that was all he owed her. I didn't feel that he really needed to explain himself. But my girlfriend, naturally, completely disagreed and said that he is trying to control everything and is being self-centered and arrogant about the situation he has developed and that his lies had unwillingly made her complicit. I disagreed by arguing that the situation is more complicated than that. And then Walt's slightly disturbing outburst came.
I was just shocked at the amount of bitterness and anger that had clearly been built up. My girlfriend alerted me to the contrast between the over- the- shoulder-shot between them: both their eyes said it all. His ex's was a mix of genuine sadness, shock and maybe even a little fear whereas Walt's was of what seemed like pure hatred and resentment. I don't think that I had ever seen his facial features display such a striking emotion up until then.
Anyways, i'm going on a bit, but yeah, i'm excited to see where the operation is going to go. It seems like they are expanding, and Walt seems to have a better knack for this trade than I think he even realised. The all black top hat, outfit and shades don't look goofy anymore, he seems like he wants it all and i'm extremely excited to see how and if this all blows up or becomes a giant thing.
The Prestige
05-21-12, 07:01 AM
Forgot to mention the Jesse and drug addicts with the kid scene. Truly sickening. I'm assuming these are actually actors, and not real drug addicts in these, yeah? I know it seems like a silly question to ask but some of these drug gies and gross looking prostitutes on the show look to be the real deal.
Pretty sure, yeah. Pretty sure they just do a great job of casting, and with makeup.
Anyway, I think you're spot on about all this. And I, too, think the scene with Gretchen is hugely important. Really great to hear your thoughts as you go through. :up: It's a lot of fun to relive it this way and see the ways in which you react.
Brodinski
05-21-12, 02:27 PM
New, adjusted prediction: Walt dies of cancer. All his loved ones, save his kid, will know he was Heisenberg, but it doesn't do them much good in telling the world that. Hank will not out him as the notorious cooker he was, perhaps out of respect to Skyler.
I'm kind of fearing that this season will be less good. Which means, it'll still be better than any other running drama series not named Game of Thrones.
The Prestige
05-22-12, 08:21 AM
Pretty sure, yeah. Pretty sure they just do a great job of casting, and with makeup.
Anyway, I think you're spot on about all this. And I, too, think the scene with Gretchen is hugely important. Really great to hear your thoughts as you go through. :up: It's a lot of fun to relive it this way and see the ways in which you react.
Cheers man, i'm just glad I finally decided to take the plunge and give the show a go. Wish you lot had hyped it up to me before!
Yeah, TREMENDOUS job with the make up and stuff. It almost felt as if I was watching a documentary or something :eek:
Just watched a couple of more episodes last night, getting close to the season finale. The last episode was Walt and Jesse being stuck out in the desert. Probably my favourite episode yet. Jesse in particular was wonderful and I find him more endearing as the show goes along. In some ways, I find him a bit more sympathetic than Walt.
Jesse: Alright, brake pads. Okay. What are we building?
Walter: You said it yourself.
Jesse: A robot?
Walt:...A battery.
****ing fantastic :laugh: This was important because it pretty much revealed how highly Jesse thinks of Walt. Like a kid expecting his dad to produce miracles or something. Excellent stuff.
The show is probably at it's finest when they interact with each other, and it was great (if inevitable) to see them bond out there. Although I think that Walt still thinks of himself as the Big Boss Man of the operation, last night revealed that he actually does genuinely trust Jesse. Can't believe that his cancer has regressed. He seems a bit confused about it all though.
The episode before that was wicked, too, despite this Saul geezer being a a little bit of a cliche Levyesque CRIMINAL lawyer. He is quite funny, though and it will be interesting to see how Walt responds to his demands.
Anyways, I will probably wait until after the 2nd season's finale to comment seeing as how i'm on episode 10 already.
Yeah, you're describing pretty much my exact thought process (with a few potentially crucial differences which we can get into later). I started to like Jesse a bit earlier (you might be able to guess exactly when), but yeah, I went through the same basic thing.
Hope you're making a point not to read many of the other recent posts above! Tricky to do, I know, but this is still a spoiler-y zone, so tread lightly. Anything close to a spoiler in any of my posts will be clearly marked, though, just in case.
Oh, and it's official, ya'll: show comes back on July 15th for an 8-episode half-season. Then the next summer for the final 8. Sounds like it's going to be spread out a year apart like a normal season would be, though I heard rumors of a shortened production break, so maybe the one in 2013 will start earlier in the year. Dunno. Either way, it's pretty crazy that it's coming back in just 7 weeks!
The Prestige
05-22-12, 01:38 PM
Lemme guess, you started to like Jesse around the time he lost his house and was out of money and stuff? Or was it eariler? Or was it when he was with the kid in the junkies place? I kinda liked him then, too, but couldn't make it official until last night's ep.
I don't think I have seen anything too spoilery yet, I did very briefly get a look at Brod's post, but stopped reading it after the first half sentence. I'm assuming he thought I was past the point where Walt learns his cancer has regressed, but I was just one ep away before I read it. It's alright, though. That's literally all I read, and it's my fault for not being careful enough.
I will be much more careful, though. I'll probably wait until sometime in season 3 to make more comments. Or maybe i'll just post in your comments page. Makes more sense.
Gabrielle947
06-02-12, 09:53 AM
I just finished watching the whole 4 seasons and I think that it was a time well spent. :D
The final episodes of season 4 when everything was out of order were really intense and interesting.
Overall,the idea is quite unique and interesting,it made me feel sorry that I didn't like learning chemistry at school. :D The whole plot and all the situations seem quite realistic.Also addicts' lives seem real,too.
There is one thing which left me confused - why Walt always helped Jesse?I mean,Walt saved Jesse like hundreds of times and Jesse pretty much always thought about himself.I couldn't say that that's because they're friends because their relationship were based on business and they often argue.I have few theories but I wonder what others think?
Ahhhh! Five weeks away! They're airing a short (like, 8-10 seconds) promo for it with a tiny clip! Ahhhh!
bouncingbrick
06-11-12, 03:24 PM
I've got lots of free time at my new job so I've been re-watching the show. So good.
I still stand by my super-hero analogy. And I still think Gilligan and crew are/were aware of it. In second viewing, I love their use of foreshadowing. I was aware of it the first time through, but it becomes so much stronger watching the show again.
All that said, I'll probably stay out of this thread for several months because I tend to save up TV shows on my DVR and watch them in clumps. I just got done watching the last 8 episodes of Game of Thrones this weekend. :D
I find myself becoming less and less interested in these characters as the episodes drag on. I just finished season 3, and I didn't really have an urge to run out and grab the DVDs for season 4. The show seems to be getting more and more contrived as time wears on. For instance, the character Gale and his obvious inclusion as a plot device to set up the leverage for the season 3 finale. It reeks of writer's working backward from a destination and trying to fill in the gaps between where the characters are now, as opposed to season one, where everything just followed and evolved organically. I mean, that's sort of the epitome of a contrivance, isn't it? I will watch season 4 when it hits DVD, but I am not as interested in the show as much as when I was watching seasons 1 and 2.
bouncingbrick
06-11-12, 06:27 PM
^^I feel exactly the opposite about the show. I think things flow fairly well for a show like this. Why would Gus not have someone working the lab before Walt becomes part of his crew? I think it's one of the better written shows of the last decade of TV, despite the fact that it's often tough watching Walter turn into a bad guy.
Gabrielle947
06-12-12, 03:20 AM
it's often tough watching Walter turn into a bad guy.
this is one thing why I like this show - characters aren't only good and bad and each viewer see them differently.Personally,I justify Walts' actions.Yep,he became bad (I think that his monologue "I'm the one who knocks" is a peak of his evilness) but he did that for a reason.
Man, you've gotta be the first person I've seen who liked the show less as they went on! :) I know what you mean about the way certain shows can set up contrivances to artificially pull the story forward (*cough* BSG! *cough* ;)). But in the case of Gale, I have to confess I don't see it. Gale exists because Gus needs a meth cook, because he produces meth. The fact that he produces meth is how he comes to Walt's attention in the first place. It'd be a contrivance if Walt just ran into some guy and then it turns out he also produces meth, or something, but in this case the fact that Gus is in the same business, and has a cook of his own, is precisely why they meet at all. The leverage is inherent in the situation, which actually starts in the middle of season 2. So there's a lot of lead time. Ideally they'd introduce Gale earlier, too, but I'm not sure how, since the reveal of the lab is a big deal. That's the real leverage point: not the cook, but the cost of Gus' investment in the lab.
I suppose an argument can be made that some of what happens could seem obvious (though I was blindsided by it) by the introduction of the character, though I'd say that's different than a contrivance. And I think the drama's pretty strong even if you suspect where it's going.
bouncingbrick
06-12-12, 11:04 AM
this is one thing why I like this show - characters aren't only good and bad and each viewer see them differently.Personally,I justify Walts' actions.
He could have stopped producing meth after his big sale to Gus, but he chose to keep going. He could have helped Jane. He could have decided to not cook for Gus. Don't tell me his actions are justified. There are more than one point in his career where he could stop what he's doing and try to go back to a normal life.
Hell, he could have swallowed his pride and taken money from Elliott and Gretchen and cooking would never have been an issue.
I think it depends on how you use the word "justify." If it just means you sort of understand it, then I guess I can relate. But what he's done is wayyyy beyond justification. And yeah, as bb points, Walt's had lots of potential pivot points...lots of lines he could've chosen not to cross. And multiple opportunities to get out of the game completely. He never takes them. Because, while I'm sure he did/does want to provide for his family...that's not the whole reason he was doing it.
He likes it.
Gabrielle947
06-12-12, 11:21 AM
He could have helped Jane.
he let Jane die so he could save Jesse.I'm quite sure that if Jesse and Jane had left,they would have spent all the money on drugs and end up God knows where.The scene where they say that they will stop using drugs and they decide to get high last time kind of proves that it's not so easy to drop drugs.Especially when Jane introduced him to heroin.
He could have decided to not cook for Gus.
he needed quick money.
He could have stopped producing meth after his big sale to Gus, but he chose to keep going.
well I can't disagree with this - yes,he became a worse and more materialistic person but it's not the best example and he isn't a complete villain.It's not easy to leave this business when you're already in and when you're good at what you do.
Hell, he could have swallowed his pride and taken money from Elliott and Gretchen and cooking would never have been an issue.
have you ever had this kind of situation?When you have to ask for money as you can't take of your own family and yourself?
He likes it.
well yeah I could agree but he started liking it only after some time.And it's quite obvious - all the time he was just a teacher,he was shy,he couldn't tell loudly what he wants(he chose cancer treatment although he didn't want it).When he discovered that he's a professional cook and he is respected - of course he likes it.I'm not saying that he's saint.He's just a poor typical and dissatisfied ordinary man under difficult and uncomfortable circumstances.
I don't think he let Jane die to "save Jesse," though I have no doubt that's what he'd tell himself. Let's not forget that her involvement with Jesse was extremely inconvenient to him, and that she'd shortly beforehand threatened to expose him. That's not a coincidence. He's shown some affection for Jesse, but it's always been dwarfed by Jesse's utility to him.
Re: "quick money." I don't remember anything like that offhand; after his first big sale to Gus, he'd made a ton. Certainly enough to meet the number he arrived at in the junk yard in the beginning of season 2, and then some. But once he had it, he wanted more. He breezes right by that number with no hint of having accomplished anything, because it was always just an excuse.
As for swallowing pride...well yeah, it's embarrassing to accept that kind of charity. Probably humiliating. But we're talking about it as an alternative to being a meth dealer! The only way he was able to justify such a terrible thing at all was by thinking it was the only way to provide for his family. Gretchen's offer shows that that isn't true. If this had been about his family, he'd swallow his pride and accept the charity, rather than put everyone in danger. The fact that he didn't shows us that he values his own pride more than his family's well-being.
If there's one thing you can count on, one thing that drives the entire narrative, it's Walt's pride. Every single time Walt has had a choice between his pride and everything else--his family, his life, or even prudence in general--his pride has won out.
Gabrielle947
06-12-12, 01:20 PM
I don't think he let Jane die to "save Jesse," though I have no doubt that's what he'd tell himself. Let's not forget that her involvement with Jesse was extremely inconvenient to him, and that she'd shortly beforehand threatened to expose him. That's not a coincidence. He's shown some affection for Jesse, but it's always been dwarfed by Jesse's utility to him.
it can be seen both ways why he let her die.Finally,Walt got here absolutely randomly.And I mean Jesse and Jane both were junkies so it's quite difficult to state that they both were completely in love.They were united in drugs,in quite the same environment(Jesse was controlled by Walt and Jane by her dad etc.).I don't trust such relationship but I don't want to go deeper into this.
Despite Walt letting her die,personally more disturbing for me was watching stoned Jesse while his girlfriend is choking to death.
moreover,Walt saved Jesse (he hit two drug dealers with a car).You think he did that because Jesse was useful for Walt?don't you think it's easier to find another guy like Jesse for Walt or it's easier to kill two people?I tend to think that Walt cares for Jesse (what about one time when he called Walt Jr. Jesse?) and the fact that he saved Jesse makes me think that he let Jane die more for Jesses' welfare.
Re: "quick money." I don't remember anything like that offhand; after his first big sale to Gus, he'd made a ton. Certainly enough to meet the number he arrived at in the junk yard in the beginning of season 2, and then some. But once he had it, he wanted more. He breezes right by that number with no hint of having accomplished anything, because it was always just an excuse.
well he needed more than he said in season 2 because he had to buy car wash for laundering but that's not the point.You think he could have left this business so easily?Especially when he was the best cook so far.
If this had been about his family, he'd swallow his pride and accept the charity, rather than put everyone in danger. The fact that he didn't shows us that he values his own pride more than his family's well-being.
well I can only ask again - have you experienced such situation when you have to ask for someone's charity because you can't take care of yourself?Anyway,if Eliott would have paid for the treatment and it didn't help - who would provide for Walts' family after he's gone?And although he put his family in danger,no one got hurt yet.
Every single time Walt has had a choice between his pride and everything else--his family, his life, or even prudence in general--his pride has won out.
yeah,its very easy to ask for charity,live poorly,be pitied when you know that you have like a year to live.And when you die,everybody just remembers you like ordinary poor and shy man who couldn't even take care of his family.
it can be seen both ways why he let her die.Finally,Walt got here absolutely randomly.And I mean Jesse and Jane both were junkies so it's quite difficult to state that they both were completely in love.They were united in drugs,in quite the same environment(Jesse was controlled by Walt and Jane by her dad etc.).I don't trust such relationship but I don't want to go deeper into this.
I'm not saying they were in love, or that I "trust" the relationship. Those are separate questions from why Walt did it. Also, it's worth pointing out that he didn't exactly "let" her die--she was on her side when he came in, and it's his shaking of Jesse that caused her to end up on her back.
Anyway, I think the key here is that the show is making Walt worse over time. In order to do this, they need exactly what we're talking about--killings with a tiny bit of ambiguity to them. And if this is what they're doing, they should start off very justifiable, and become less so over time. And that's exactly what we see, chronologically. He kills the two dealers in the first episode in clear self-defense. He kills Crazy 8 later in something that's kinda like self-defense, but not entirely, and in a situation where he's specifically looking for justification to kill. Now with Jane, it's not even self-defense, but there's still some little glimmer of justification. This is exactly how you make a hero into a villain; bit by bit. With little veils of deniability.
Even done this gradually, some people in this thread (I think it was Mike, but I'm not sure) have still found it too jarringly evil!
Despite Walt letting her die,personally more disturbing for me was watching stoned Jesse while his girlfriend is choking to death.
moreover,Walt saved Jesse (he hit two drug dealers with a car).You think he did that because Jesse was useful for Walt?don't you think it's easier to find another guy like Jesse for Walt or it's easier to kill two people?I tend to think that Walt cares for Jesse (what about one time when he called Walt Jr. Jesse?) and the fact that he saved Jesse makes me think that he let Jane die more for Jesses' welfare.
I think he had a lot of interest in saving Jesse there; he's loyal, for one, which is no small thing in their business. But I agree, he definitely cares for Jesse somewhat. Just as he really does love his family and wants to provide for them. He does all sorts of things to prove both. But what does he do when those things come into conflict with his own pride? He always chooses his pride.
In other words, I'm not arguing that Walt is a complete psychopath (though I'll bet that's where he ends up). I'm arguing that whatever feelings he has for others are consistently subverted to his own pride, greed, and ego.
well he needed more than he said in season 2 because he had to buy car wash for laundering but that's not the point.You think he could have left this business so easily?Especially when he was the best cook so far.
It's possible, but he didn't even try! If he'd tried and failed, I admittedly wouldn't think of him the same way. If he'd done that a few times, the show's message would be completely different.
Besides, he's presented with just such an opportunity later (spoilers for season 4, if you haven't seen it yet). Near the end of the season, Jesse bargains for Walt's life convinces Gus to let him leave the business. Gus agrees and takes him out into the desert with a hood on him and tells him he's done. Humiliates him a little. If he keeps his mouth shut and swallows his pride, he gets to walk away. I paused the DVR and told my wife there was no way he would take this way out. And he doesn't. Instead, he says:
"Or you'll what?"
He calls Gus out! He says Gus can't kill him, and walks away from a chance to walk away. Any doubt anyone had about what comes first in Walt's life should fly right out the window after that scene.
well I can only ask again - have you experienced such situation when you have to ask for someone's charity because you can't take care of yourself?Anyway,if Eliott would have paid for the treatment and it didn't help - who would provide for Walts' family after he's gone?And although he put his family in danger,no one got hurt yet.
Hank did; Hank almost died. And the show isn't over yet. But really, putting them in danger at all proves the point, which is that his ego is more important to him than keeping them safe. Whether he lucks out and they don't actually get hurt is beside the point.
Anyway, I sure haven't been in a situation like that, no. But I haven't been a meth dealer, either, and it's pretty easy to shrug off any analysis of any fiction, since most of it's way more dramatic than anything any of us will ever experience (thank goodness :)).
I'm not playing down how humiliating that must be. But neither can we play down how insane it is to start cooking crystal meth. Both choices are difficult for normal people to fathom. The question is: when he had a choice, a way to provide for his family without cooking meth, did he take it? He did not.
yeah,its very easy to ask for charity,live poorly,be pitied when you know that you have like a year to live.And when you die,everybody just remembers you like ordinary poor and shy man who couldn't even take care of his family.
Again, it's not that this should be easy for him. It's that he had a choice, and he chose his pride. Ergo, he values his own pride more than his family's well-being.
bouncingbrick
06-12-12, 02:54 PM
have you ever had this kind of situation?When you have to ask for money as you can't take of your own family and yourself?
Yes. I have. It's not easy, but I have swallowed my pride and taken charity from my family in order to keep a roof over the heads of my children. It is very hard, but it's something I've done.
it can be seen both ways why he let her die.Finally,Walt got here absolutely randomly.And I mean Jesse and Jane both were junkies so it's quite difficult to state that they both were completely in love.They were united in drugs,in quite the same environment(Jesse was controlled by Walt and Jane by her dad etc.).I don't trust such relationship but I don't want to go deeper into this.
Despite Walt letting her die,personally more disturbing for me was watching stoned Jesse while his girlfriend is choking to death.
moreover,Walt saved Jesse (he hit two drug dealers with a car).You think he did that because Jesse was useful for Walt?don't you think it's easier to find another guy like Jesse for Walt or it's easier to kill two people?I tend to think that Walt cares for Jesse (what about one time when he called Walt Jr. Jesse?) and the fact that he saved Jesse makes me think that he let Jane die more for Jesses' welfare.
He does care for Jesse, but his own well being trumps even his affection for Jesse. This has always been the case and it is seen in full force at the end of season 4.
Also, the quote from Jane "Do right by Jesse or I will burn you to the ground". I'm pretty sure that was a truer motivation for letting her die than saving Jesse.
well he needed more than he said in season 2 because he had to buy car wash for laundering but that's not the point.You think he could have left this business so easily?Especially when he was the best cook so far.
I'm re-watching the show right now and I just watched the episode where he made his first big deal with Gus. First, he didn't make the amount of money that he quoted in season one, but he didn't need that much anymore because he was in remission and expected to live longer.
Second, he could have easily given up on cooking because the car wash wasn't a factor until the next season. He already had a way to launder the money via Walt Jr.'s web site. He could have stopped but he didn't.
7884815595well I can only ask again - have you experienced such situation when you have to ask for someone's charity because you can't take care of yourself?Anyway,if Eliott would have paid for the treatment and it didn't help - who would provide for Walts' family after he's gone?And although he put his family in danger,no one got hurt yet.
yeah,its very easy to ask for charity,live poorly,be pitied when you know that you have like a year to live.And when you die,everybody just remembers you like ordinary poor and shy man who couldn't even take care of his family.[/quote]
Again, I haven't died, but I have been through the ordeal of accepting other people's money when things were tough.
Gabrielle947
06-13-12, 09:46 AM
Anyway, I think the key here is that the show is making Walt worse over time. In order to do this, they need exactly what we're talking about--killings with a tiny bit of ambiguity to them. And if this is what they're doing, they should start off very justifiable, and become less so over time. And that's exactly what we see, chronologically. He kills the two dealers in the first episode in clear self-defense. He kills Crazy 8 later in something that's kinda like self-defense, but not entirely, and in a situation where he's specifically looking for justification to kill. Now with Jane, it's not even self-defense, but there's still some little glimmer of justification. This is exactly how you make a hero into a villain; bit by bit. With little veils of deniability.
Yes,I can agree with that but then again - bouncingbrick mentioned that Walt turns into the bad guy but what does that mean?What is good and bad in his situation?
The way I see it,when Walt discovers that he has cancer,he immediately starts thinking about his familys' future,it's like an instinct,he's not thinking clearly but his intestions are good.When he starts his cooking business,he realizes that he's respected as a cook and that he can control some situations.And he never had this chance to control something bofere.This is when he becomes blind and slowly turns into bad guy.But I understand him and I am not judging him.I mean,he has cancer - knowing that you can die makes people do various things.
Near the end of the season, Jesse bargains for Walt's life convinces Gus to let him leave the business.
maybe he didn't believe Gus that he will leave him alone.Yes,it shows that his ego wins but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is a bad person.Many people these days like to judge others when they fail but rarely someone tries to think why they fail.
Hank did; Hank almost died.
I don't think it's correct to tell that it's all Walts fault why Hank got hurt.
Yes. I have. It's not easy, but I have swallowed my pride and taken charity from my family in order to keep a roof over the heads of my children. It is very hard, but it's something I've done.
it's not the same when you take money from your family.Family is like union,it's not strangers.And Eliott with Gretchen did something to Walt some time ago,got him out of the business(I can't recall exactly) so it's even harder to take money from people,who humiliated you already earlier.Of course,that depends on each person,some feel fine taking other peoples' money.But normally,even in nature males have to take care of their families.Have you seen anywhere in the nature that some random lion brings food another tiger family?Of course,humans are "further" than animals but it's extremely hard to get over nature laws.
And yes,I agree that when he stayed in meth business it shows that he is not as good as he was.
Yes,I can agree with that but then again - bouncingbrick mentioned that Walt turns into the bad guy but what does that mean?What is good and bad in his situation?
Well, that's kind of my question for you, actually: what does he have to do to be bad? In my experience, bad people aren't mustache-twirling cartoons. Most bad people don't think they're bad; that's one of the reasons they're bad! Real-life villains often have some convoluted rationalization, or some personal tragedy that made them bad, and Walt's no different. But if tough circumstances excuse bad behavior, we won't be calling many people bad at all.
This also might be a good time to point out that the show is called Breaking Bad. ;) I don't think I'd watch a show called Breaking Understandably.
The way I see it,when Walt discovers that he has cancer,he immediately starts thinking about his familys' future,it's like an instinct,he's not thinking clearly but his intestions are good.When he starts his cooking business,he realizes that he's respected as a cook and that he can control some situations.And he never had this chance to control something bofere.This is when he becomes blind and slowly turns into bad guy.But I understand him and I am not judging him.I mean,he has cancer - knowing that you can die makes people do various things.
My memory of Walt learning about his cancer is not that he immediately starts thinking of his family. The first thing he does is totally space out. Then he explodes as his boss talks down to him in a fit of--you guessed it--pride, grabbing his crotch to assert his manhood. Then he keeps it from his family. He doesn't get the idea to make money for his family until he hears Hank talking about all the money they seized from a drug bust.
maybe he didn't believe Gus that he will leave him alone.
I think this is a tough interpretation to sell, for a couple of reasons. The first being that the show doesn't indicate this. Granted, we can read into things and sometimes that can illuminate things, but in this case I don't think there's any hint in the show itself that he thought this at this point.
The second is that, if Walt believed this, he'd have no reason to talk to Gus the way he does. If he doesn't think Gus is being genuine in offering to let him out of the business...why taunt him? What purpose would antagonizing him serve? If anything, that seems like it would only make Gus more likely to take him out anyway.
These sorts of scenes make a whole lot more sense, and fit together much better, if we start with the belief that Walt's pride comes first.
Yes,it shows that his ego wins but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is a bad person.Many people these days like to judge others when
they fail but rarely someone tries to think why they fail.
Having an ego doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. But choosing to preserve your own ego in a way that puts your family in more danger does.
I don't think it's correct to tell that it's all Walts fault why Hank got hurt.
He didn't pull the trigger, but it's Walt fault he was in danger at all.
Anyway, whether you think Hank qualifies or not, I'm simply pointing out that a) his actions have led (indirectly) to his family being hurt, b) there might be more coming, as the story isn't over yet, and c) the fact that he's putting his family in danger at all is more than enough to make the point. If you go all Michael Jackson and dangle your baby over a balcony, that doesn't become reckless and wrong if you drop the baby; it's reckless and wrong already, even if nothing happens.
There might have been a little deniability at first, as he might have genuinely believed he could separate the two at first. But he couldn't have possibly thought this was true for Hank, who works for the DEA. And he definitely couldn't believe it for very long, given the things that started happening. I guess we can haggle about at which point, precisely, he realized his actions had brought danger upon his family, but he must know it by now.
We're also going to get to test a lot of this even more very soon, yeah? Gus is dead. He should be able to walk away if he really wants to, right? Do you actually think he will, or do you think he'll try to replace him?
bouncingbrick
06-13-12, 01:45 PM
We're also going to get to test a lot of this even more very soon, yeah? Gus is dead. He should be able to walk away if he really wants to, right? Do you actually think he will, or do you think he'll try to replace him?
Do you even have to ask? :D
With the cartel weakened and/or completely out of the picture and Gus blowed up, I imagine the final season will be Walt taking his place at the top and the conflict will come from Hank figuring out who Walt really is. At this point, I believe that is inevitable.
Also, I love this pic.
Yeah, I agree. There might be some larger conflict with the international organization (in Germany, was it?) alluded to. They probably have to be involved somehow, given that they were mentioned several times, but that could mean lots of different things.
Also worth pointing out that his last words in season 4, when Skyler asks him what happens, are "I won." That doesn't sound like a dude who was just fighting for his life and managed to escape with it. That's personal triumph. That's pride talkin'.
Gabrielle947
06-22-12, 07:31 PM
what does he have to do to be bad?
Well if he had thought only about himself since he got cancer,if he killed lots of people without a serious reason,then I would consider him bad.Personally,I think that he became bad(although still justifiable) somewhere in season 4.The fact that he started meth business doesn't look bad for me because he did it for his family.It wasn't for his needs,it wasn't just to become wealthy - he just wanted his family to be able to survive.Yes,he put them in danger but maybe he didn't realize the risk then.
Also,you keep mentioning pride but I was wondering if it is bad.Of course,in that show there is too much of it sometimes but we are talking about a cancer patient and whether he's in remission,he still has cancer and he's desperate,and he doesn't have enough money for his family.When he gets in meth business,he starts feeling more powerful because he understands how valuable his product is,so yes,there's more of his pride.My main point from the beginning was that's his actions can be justified or at least understandable.I mean,do you think that Walt is as bad as lets say,Tony Montana from Scarface?
We're also going to get to test a lot of this even more very soon, yeah? Gus is dead. He should be able to walk away if he really wants to, right? Do you actually think he will, or do you think he'll try to replace him?
On this I agree because as you mentioned that the title of the show kind of spoils what it's about and I tend to think that in the end he will become a bad person whose actions won't be justified.But now,he's not an ultimate villain.
Well if he had thought only about himself since he got cancer,if he killed lots of people without a serious reason,then I would consider him bad.Personally,I think that he became bad(although still justifiable) somewhere in season 4.The fact that he started meth business doesn't look bad for me because he did it for his family.It wasn't for his needs,it wasn't just to become wealthy - he just wanted his family to be able to survive.Yes,he put them in danger but maybe he didn't realize the risk then.
Maybe not; though he certainly must by now, so the fact that he isn't stopping now is pretty significant.
I think the idea here is that what we know now should change our understanding of what happened before. What may have been reasonable before may not be reasonable now, with the benefit of hindsight. In other words, based on what little we knew at first, it kinda looks like he was doing all this for the right reasons. Based on what we know now, it seems more likely that his motives were a lot more mixed.
This, in my opinion, is what's so great about the show (among other things): that as the character is revealed to us, it makes us reevaluate the conclusions we may have already come to about his previous actions.
Also,you keep mentioning pride but I was wondering if it is bad.Of course,in that show there is too much of it sometimes but we are talking about a cancer patient and whether he's in remission,he still has cancer and he's desperate,and he doesn't have enough money for his family.When he gets in meth business,he starts feeling more powerful because he understands how valuable his product is,so yes,there's more of his pride.
I think pride is generally way more harmful than helpful, though I recognize this probably puts me at odds with most modern thinking. But anyway, we're not talking about being a little too proud about something that is otherwise good, like succeeding in some legitimate enterprise and letting it go to your head a little. Walt's pride has often been about pure domination and superiority. For example, growling in the parking lot to some other meth dealers to "stay out of my territory," which was pretty much just primal tree marking more than reasoned business decision.
And, of course, whether pride is always bad, and how bad, kinda goes out of the window when it starts to conflict with the safety of our loved ones. Any pride strong enough to cause you to compromise that is definitely bad, and certainly selfish.
My main point from the beginning was that's his actions can be justified or at least understandable.I mean,do you think that Walt is as bad as lets say,Tony Montana from Scarface?
Oh man. You could not have picked a more perfect example. It's so spot-on that I almost wonder if you're messing with me. :D
Vince Gilligan, who created the show, has literally said (this is a direct quote), that he pitched the show to AMC by saying he wanted to "take Mr. Chips and turn him into Scarface."
On this I agree because as you mentioned that the title of the show kind of spoils what it's about and I tend to think that in the end he will become a bad person whose actions won't be justified.But now,he's not an ultimate villain.
I guess it depends on what an "ultimate" villain is. He's definitely maintaining some thin veil of deniability, some low-frequency rationalization for himself. And I think, in the last season, that veil drops and he abandons any pretense of caring about such things. But we'll find out. :)
There are parts of this that are more debatable than others. I thought of him as a villain pretty early, and a case can be made that he was still redeemable midway through the show. I've heard it said, for example, that the look he gives and the way he opens his eyes after Jane dies can be seen as the moment when he passes the point of no return, and if you watch the clip it kinda looks that way. Either way, it's a great moment.
Gabrielle947
06-23-12, 05:49 AM
Vince Gilligan, who created the show, has literally said (this is a direct quote), that he pitched the show to AMC by saying he wanted to "take Mr. Chips and turn him into Scarface."
:D I chose Tony Montana because I just hated that character.He is the worst movie villain for me.And yes,maybe Walt will become like him.Actually I would like to see that happen because it would be interesting to start hating the character whom you liked at first.
bouncingbrick
06-23-12, 11:51 AM
:D I chose Tony Montana because I just hated that character.He is the worst movie villain for me.And yes,maybe Walt will become like him.Actually I would like to see that happen because it would be interesting to start hating the character whom you liked at first.
Maybe?!??!!
I'm pretty sure he crossed that line a long time ago!
Because I'm a dork this way, I have to tie the two together. Scarface wouldn't kill children with a bomb and he shot Mark Margolis to prevent it from happening. Walter used Mark Margolis to **SPOILERS** blow up the competition!
There's a 30-second promo out with some great lines in it. Very cool.
Also, here's a poster from the press materials they're sending out:
http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg877/scaled.php?tn=0&server=877&filename=2ltavg.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640
Currently on episode 12 at the moment. I have to say, the ending of episode 11 is one of the most intense, disturbing endings of any show I've ever seen.
:yup:
The Prestige just finished that one, I believe. Soooo good. I think the last four episodes of season 4 are the best run in the entire series so far.
EIGHT DAYS!
Not only eight days until Breaking Bad comes back...but apparently, eight days until the fourth season is streaming on Netflix Instant, too. Awesome.
The Prestige
07-07-12, 08:03 PM
Yep, episode 12 is incredibly tense, without a doubt. Loved it. That sick laugh at the end, the heartbeat score, final framing shot, how did I not catch this show for 4 years?? Finished the season finally and am now as up to date as the rest of you lads and ladettes :)
Brilliant, I can't say enough good things about it. I don't want to compare it to the likes of The Wire as it seems too unfair a comparison, but at this point, I think it blows Dexter out of the water. It's def. better than Sopranos, which, while good, was a tad bit overrated for me.
I was hoping that it was Gus who had poisoned the little boy, although my instinct kept saying that it didn't make sense as to why Gus would go that route, seeing as how he knows Jesse's emotions would delay the operation for a bit, which he clearly doesn't want. Still, can't believe Walt would go that far, regardless of the poison not being fatal. He's just gotten worse and worse.
I remember thinking at some point throughout season 2 that I was witnessing the evolution of a crime lord. An immoral but somewhat cool cat..but it feels like we're witnessing the birth of a genuine monster. Walt still retains SOME humanity, but it's getting more diluted each episode.
Best drama on TV. Bar none. The last episode blew me away.
JULY 15th.
Yeah, the laughter...it's so horrific and perfect. It's Joker-like. And it's one of Walt's transformational moments, I think. I'm not sure what they would all be, but I think the two biggest ones are:
1) Letting Jane die. Check out this clip. Watch what he does at the end, where he tears up, closes his eyes...and opens them again looking like a completely new man. The birth of Heisenberg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn3zVl3gkOk
2) Losing his mind in that crawl space, laughing maniacally. It's right after that that he poisons Brock and sets the final plan in motion. That's when he really loses it and decides that there's nothing he won't do to "win."
There are so many other pivot points along the way, of course. Refusing Gretchen's help. Growling at the wannabe meth cooks to stay out of his territory. Asking Gus "Or what?" in the desert when he's offered a way out. But I think the two above mark the two big moments where he crossed over onto a new level, where he was willing to do things he wouldn't have done before. Where he not only goes the way of preserving his pride (there are too many of those to count), but decides a whole new level of violence is warranted to protect it.
I don't know if there's anything he won't do now. But knowing this show, there'll be one more threshold to cross. And it'll be his last one.
The Prestige
07-08-12, 03:08 AM
I was definitely thinking Joker during that laugh. An apt comparison. I think Skylar's reaction to it gives it the exclamation mark though, she barely recognises Walt during that moment and is clearly horrified, so yeah, def. a key transformation scene, you're right. I too doubt Walt would have done what he did to the boy prior to that moment.
Never noticed that bit after letting Jane die. You can read it all on his face. Regret then a calm acceptance. Creepy ****. Some of you guys were discussing his motivations during that moment earlier. I agree with Gabriella that it's a case of multiple thoughts running across Walt's mind. I think that Walt strongly care for Jesse and (understandably) felt that the two of them together would result in death, but he also saw Jane as a potential threat to his cooking business, so I think that the combination of those drove him to do what (up to that point) was a very despicable act, or rather lack of.
The Gretchen thing was more of a turning point for us as an audience and probably the biggest hint that Walt had been wearing a mask for quite some time. I wouldn't say that moment changed him, just hinted at some seriously deep rooted bitterness. I would argue that the almost iconic 'Stay out of my territory' moment that you mentioned Yoda was a bigger turning point than that.
At that point, Walt is in the process of giving up the cooking and has secured enough funds for him and his family to live comfortably for awhile. All his other acts, regardless of how nasty they were, could be interpreted as him either 'doing it for his family' or saving his or Jesse's life. Everything is going great, he is in remission yet can't resist to play the big chief and intimidates those other dealers, who were, physically, in a position to stand up to Walt, but the fact that they look into his eyes and retreat says it all really. Walt doesn't flinch, and he isn't even being theatrical here, he genuinely feels like he is the big dog in the game now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU0O4PeMAwg
I also never really thought much about the 'or what' scene, too. It's true, Gus is pretty much doing what most kingpins wouldn't do in that moment and reluctantly letting Walt off. I think what's most interesting though is Walt does EXACTLY what Gus tells him not to. He creates a situation in which Gus would have no other choice but to kill him. He's absolutely ridiculous. I mean, Gus didn't even say that he was going to kill Hank, just that he'd 'deal' with him. That didn't necessarily mean death, but again it's about Walt's stories and what goes on in his head. I genuinely think that Gus was just threatening Walt's family and wouldn't actually kill 'his infant daughter', but Walt panicked.
Yeah, that's a good point about the Gretchen thing showing the audience something. I should make a distinction between moments of transformation and moments of revelation. The Gretchen moment isn't Walt changing, it's Walt showing us more of himself. Good call. :up:
And, of course, it's all about those moments of transformation. Walter White said it in the very first episode to his class: "It is growth, then decay, then transformation." I think both the Jane and the Crawl Space moments fit this; he decays and hits bottom in both before coming out the other side transformed into something more ruthless.
I think you're right about the "Territory" thing, too. There's no earthly reason for it! He's making plenty of money, nobody's bothering him, and those two pose zero threat to him, particularly the short term. But he can't stand the thought of letting them in on it.
And you're totally right about the scene with Gus in the desert: he deliberately forces Gus to want to kill him. Gives him no choice. In fact, it's a lot like the Krazy Eight situation; he couldn't bring himself to kill him in captivity, but when he noticed he'd taken the piece of ceramic he let himself be attacked so he could, in good conscience, kill him. Now, he provokes Gus into a situation where he can make the case that he has to kill him, too. He maneuvers himself into situations where killing is necessary, and then acts like he had no choice, even though he deliberately gave himself none.
The Prestige
07-08-12, 02:57 PM
And, of course, it's all about those moments of transformation. Walter White said it in the very first episode to his class: "It is growth, then decay, then transformation." I think both the Jane and the Crawl Space moments fit this; he decays and hits bottom in both before coming out the other side transformed into something more ruthless.
Ahh yes, I forgot about that key bit of dialogue. Never thought about how it would relate to Walt's metamorphosis. Well remembered. I think i'm going to have to do a rewatch towards the end of the year because theres quite a bit of symbolism that's easy to miss. This is such a great show, man!
Yeah, there's some definite value in rewatching. Not as much as some other great shows, because there's so much tension the first time through, but a lot. It's a lot of fun to watch with other people, while waiting for those "Ohhhhh!" moments that you know are coming up.
I've rewatched chunks of the first season and a lot of the third with people, and the fourth with my sisters. And now my sisters and I are going to rewatch the fourth with the rest of my family. I may or may not be there for all of it, but I'm going to insist on being there for the last four episodes, naturally.
I think the second season is the only one I haven't made much attempt to rewatch yet. But I will at some point.
The Prestige
07-08-12, 03:32 PM
Yeah, there's some definite value in rewatching. Not as much as some other great shows, because there's so much tension the first time through, but a lot. It's a lot of fun to watch with other people, while waiting for those "Ohhhhh!" moments that you know are coming up.
I've rewatched chunks of the first season and a lot of the third with people, and the fourth with my sisters. And now my sisters and I are going to rewatch the fourth with the rest of my family. I may or may not be there for all of it, but I'm going to insist on being there for the last four episodes, naturally.
I think the second season is the only one I haven't made much attempt to rewatch yet. But I will at some point.
That's interesting. The 1st especially 2nd season seem like they would benefit the most from repeat viewings just due to the foundations having being placed and stuff. Any reason why you haven't revisited the 2nd season yet?
Just because I liked it less than the others. Which is kind of surprising, since as you just alluded to, it was more planned out and therefore there's a lot more foreshadowing. Now, saying I like it less is saying it's really good, rather than really really good, but I guess I just found it had fewer of those moments that really grab me. But I might be giving it short shrift. I'll definitely try it again at some point.
The Prestige
07-08-12, 07:26 PM
Yeah, I can imagine you liking it more the second time round. Funnily enough it's probably my second favourite season after season 4 so far. So many great moments in that season. The first couple of episodes where Tuco takes Walt and Jesse hostage, the Gretchen moment, Jesse and Walt's little fight in the van, which, in hindsight isn't as brutal as the one in season 4. Walt and Jesse being stuck in the desert, the 'territory' scene, allowing Jane to die, the plane crash, etc.
Great stuff!
Austruck
07-12-12, 05:58 PM
Three days!!
Amazingly, it seems the time went fast since last season. Then again, maybe I've just been busy moving. :)
The worst part is that I'll miss the second episode because I'll be out of town. Will have to come back on the 27th and immediately watch it On Demand... (sigh)
It's not just you. Even a couple of months ago, when I heard the premiere day, I was shocked at how close it was.
I dunno why; it's premiering exactly 363 days after the last one.
Pyro Tramp
07-12-12, 06:07 PM
Is Season 5: Part 2 starting this time next year? Not sure why it's not just Season 6
ChuckDee
07-12-12, 06:08 PM
My All-Time favorite television show. Been patiently waiting...the last episode in season 4 was awesome
I assume it's all one season because it's telling one overarching story, as opposed to two with one reaching some kind of conclusion this year.
Pyro Tramp
07-12-12, 06:13 PM
I assume it's all one season because it's telling one overarching story, as opposed to two with one reaching some kind of conclusion this year.
Kinda thought that as typed. Hoped it wasn't case though as such a long wait :(
The Prestige
07-12-12, 06:15 PM
Aaron Paul said it will actually be called season 6 in an interview.
I thought that was just on Twitter. I'll go with whatever Gilligan says.
The Prestige
07-12-12, 06:21 PM
Think you're right, it was from his twitter. Either way it's basically season 6, and I think that's what it will ultimately be called, any money.
MovieMan8877445
07-12-12, 06:21 PM
I'm out of town for the next 2 weeks, so I'll have to wait to get caught up on the first two episodes. This sucks.
Austruck
07-12-12, 09:08 PM
I guess that's another question: When is the "gap" between the two parts, and how long is the gap?
It looks like one year, but it might be a bit less, since they only seem to say "summer." Here's hoping it's more like 10 months than 12.
I'll pretty sure Gilligan has said it's one season, and I hear "final" season bandied about a lot. Obviously you can call anything anything. I'm just going by what the dude making it says. Not because the label really matters (season 47! Whatevs), but because what he's saying might tell us something about what to expect. If he were saying two, I'd expect these 8 episodes to tell a pretty cohesive story. Since he's saying one, that makes me expect something more like one overarching story, with something like a cliffhanger at the end of this year.
More big picture stuff:
I'm starting to think about the idea that the cancer might recur. I dunno if I'd bet on it or not (I'm only betting on it ending really badly for Walt, and I'd bet the farm on that), but the more I think about it, the more I think about the season 2 imagery and some of the things Gilligan's said over the years...the more I think it fits.
I'm not betting on the cancer, specifically, but more the nature of that particular end. Simply put, I think there's a good chance it's something that makes Walt's downfall karmic or cosmic, rather than just "hey, he did dangerous stuff and got shot." More like "the universe has passed judgment on you." A holy wrath. Something that happens to him, rather than something he brings on himself directly, if you follow.
There's some precedent for this, too. After Walt lets Jane die, season 2 ends with fire literally raining down on him from above. And that makes for a good guess, too, given both the imagery and the chemistry: that Walt is killed by burning.
The Prestige
07-13-12, 06:04 AM
Hmm, I can see how Gilligan would come up with something like that. Symbolically and thematically, it would seem like an appropriate way for it to end. I think that it would be fair for Walt to be punished somehow and I liked your earlier observations about how the cancer is a reminder of the humanity of Walt.
But i had an interesting conversation with my gf with regards to Walt's transformation and how he has used his cancer as literally a new chance in life throughout the series, and she came up with how his cancer could be seen to represent his own bitterness and frustration and in chinese medicine terms, the lung emotionally represents unresolved grief. So having lung cancer can be seen as paradigm of the grief. So the life he thought he was going to lead, being the great chemist with Gretchen by his side and all is not revealed until the Gretchen restaurant scene.
I think it's interesting that once Walt starts being THE Walt he wants to be, the cancer goes into remission. I would imagine that unless he goes back to his old life or a life where he is not fulfilled, his cancer will not reappear.
Yeah, I really like the burning thing. Not only for the symbolism, but because, hey, chemical burns. Lot of flammable stuff, too. Also, if we assume that Walt's going to die, I think it's safe to say it's going to be a very memorable death, and burning alive definitely qualifies.
Great observation, about lung cancer; I hadn't heard that. Very cool. Makes you wonder just how far the writers go with this stuff, as so many potential symbols are tucked away. And yeah, if it is deliberate, it'd make sense that the cancer's reappearance would have to accompany some shift back.
Two days!
The Prestige
07-13-12, 09:26 PM
Gosh, I really hope he doesn't burn to death if he were to die. That's the worst way to go and no matter how nasty Walt has been I can't envision such a horrible death ):
There was something you said in an earlier post about how if Walt crosses another even bigger line, it would be his last one. Well what if Walt actually does the unthinkable and actually becomes an antagonist to the people he claims to have gotten into the business to protect?
The Prestige
07-14-12, 02:52 PM
Dunno if anybody has seen this rather brilliant recap/tribute to BB, but I saw it a few days ago and forgot to share. If you're a fan, it's a MUST WATCH. Whoever edited this will have a very good career in cutting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYBTX_GmSM8
Oh yeah, it's made the rounds. Really love it. And it helps that "Ecstasy of Gold" is one of my favorite parts of any movie score, ever, too. :up:
The Prestige
07-14-12, 03:01 PM
It's definitely a fitting song, isn't it? Couldn't think of a more appropriate track for the show. Hope it gets used in the finale somehow.
Pyro Tramp
07-15-12, 06:00 PM
I AM EXCITE.
Shame got bastard interview tomorrow morning, then late shift.
The Prestige
07-15-12, 07:10 PM
Think i'm going to have to do things I wouldn't normally do to watch this season, myself..
Pyro Tramp
07-15-12, 07:31 PM
Watching this TV online isn't morally wrong, is it? It's free to watch in the States, does it even air at all over here?
I can happily watch TV shows online as i'd either never watch them or buy the boxset anyway. Only thing I feel guilty about is music and spotify that now anyway.
DO IT
Pretty sure you can just buy them for $2 a pop on Amazon or iTunes.
The Prestige
07-15-12, 08:38 PM
It's not as simple as that, Yoda. It's different with films, but we've been taken the mickey out of as far as Breaking Bad is concerned.
I don't know what that means. They aren't available for $2 per download where you are the day after they air here?
The Prestige
07-15-12, 09:14 PM
I doubt they are.
Pyro Tramp
07-15-12, 10:11 PM
I'd say not, considering it's not being broadcast (http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1638051) and assume it would only be available on Amazon as a supplementary option
Austruck
07-16-12, 01:07 AM
Okay, so, the first episode of the new season has aired. I had one question after it was over -- well, one that stood out. I'm extremely exhausted and will be able to think of more tomorrow, I'm sure:
At what point will the narrative catch up to that first scene in the Denny's? We know it's his 52nd birthday, and we probably all remember that first 50th birthday when the show was new -- and when he was stuck eating tofurkey bacon or some such (loved the REAL bacon he's eating now!)... but I'm a tad unclear exactly how much time has passed so far in toto. I mean, that baby girl of theirs just doesn't seem to age at all. She's still lying on her back, not crawling, not even rolling over that we can see, meaning she's still just a few months old at the time of the Gus-explosion.
So, this 52nd birthday at Denny's can't be more than what? A few months after Gus's death?
Also ... loved the scene with Jesse saying "Magnet!" in the background. :D
Re: broadcast. But they sell them on the Internet; Amazon and iTunes. That would alleviate any issues about where it's being broadcast, no? Do both those places detect that you're from the UK and refuse to sell it to you, or something? :confused:
Regarding last night's episode...
...just when I think I've got everything figured out, they pull the rug out from under me.
Well, not really. Nothing we saw was surprising in and of itself. But the manner in which they did it--by jumping forward in time--was pretty gutsy. Regarding the timeline, I think it was a big jump. I've heard it mentioned that the first four seasons only take a little over a year, combined, which means the jump forward would be something like 8-12 months, which is huge.
Obviously, it lends itself to lots of interpretations, but a few things we can probably glean from it:
1) Walt is sick again. He looks thin, he's coughing, and he's taking pills.
2) He's probably given up on fighting his sickness, because he still has hair. Which means he's not using chemo.
3) He's clearly not on top of the world, as evidenced by both his demeanor and the fact that he apparently thinks he can only solve whatever problem he has with a freaking machine gun.
Really dug the magnet stuff. I like that, as his victories pile up, he becomes more audacious. It was funny that Mike was so skeptical, whereas Jesse was completely on board because he's gotten used to seeing Walt do the seemingly impossible.
To people who haven't seen the episode, I will say only this: YEAH, SCIENCE!
I was honestly a little disappointed in the premiere. While the others in the previous seasons were slow and meant to be a build-up to the finale, this one paled by comparison. Mike had some great one-liners though.
...And the magnet? It's believable I suppose, but it was a little silly.
It was, but then, when you look back a lot of the stuff they do is pretty insane. That's generally what I like about the show. I admit part of me when "WHAT? C'mon." But then, the sheer audacity of this stuff generally bridges that gap for me.
I also think this goes a way long way towards reminding us (and showing Mike) why Jesse hangs around. He's really in awe of Walt, and it's kind of hard not to be at this point.
Also, I know we've been free about this stuff before, but there's lots of people here who are at varying stages of the show, so we'd probably better wrap all this stuff in spoiler tags, just to be safe.
Oops, sorry.
I thought this was worth watching, courtesy of Everything is Terrible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsTJsux4aVc&feature=player_embedded
This really could have made a good origin story.
The Prestige
07-16-12, 08:27 PM
"Because I say so" Oooohhhhhh
As much as a prick Walt has turned to, he can make the simplest of phrases and lines sound so f'n' cool. Badman.
EDIT - Walt's a ****in' creep.
The Prestige
07-16-12, 08:34 PM
Re: broadcast. But they sell them on the Internet; Amazon and iTunes. That would alleviate any issues about where it's being broadcast, no? Do both those places detect that you're from the UK and refuse to sell it to you, or something? :confused:
Yeah, they won't let us do anything
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