Who will take on Obama in 2012?

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We did engage him and stopped him. So we decided to retaliate in 2003 for an invasion that occurred in 1991 and we stopped? What logic are you operating under? Any excuse to invade Muslim countries?
Dude, the guy was preparing for another go at it. What do you think his biological warfare against the Kurds was all about? Do you know how many he exterminated between 2000 and 2003?
Why are you bringing up the word Muslim? Muslims also fight among themselves. What do you think Sunni and Shiite is all about?



Dude, the guy was preparing for another go at it. What do you think his biological warfare against the Kurds was all about? Do you know how many he exterminated between 2000 and 2003?
Why are you bringing up the word Muslim? Muslims also fight among themselves. What do you think Sunni and Shiite is all about?
It just seems folks like yourself seem all to eager to get involved with it, granted there are times it's probably warranted but again dictatorships will exist, trying to impose Americanism on other countries through occupation only leads to more unrest and overall antiamericanism. Remember, what pissed Bin Laden off was our bases being in their homeland. Just worth acknowledging.
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...uh the post is up there...



Yeah Germany was way too docile, hence why they lost WWII. Might makes right. . . and other pseudo-fascist catchphrases.
If you want the nitty gritty, Germany lost WWII because they broke their pact with Russia and attacked it too late, so the Russian winter basically got them.
Had they not broke the pact with Russia or had they started Operation Barbarosa in April instead of in June of 1941, we all might be singing a different tune now.
There are so many ifs, there is no telling. What if Hitler intervened less and actually let his generals call all the war shots?



It just seems folks like yourself seem all to eager to get involved with it, granted there are times it's probably warranted but again dictatorships will exist, trying to impose Americanism on other countries through occupation only leads to more unrest and overall antiamericanism. Remember, what pissed Bin Laden off was our bases being in their homeland. Just worth acknowledging.
Dude you are scratching the surface. Guys like Bin Laden were trained by us in Bosnia and Afghanistan long before 9/11.
It would take me more time than I have to fully explain the 20th century political global situation to you.



Keep on Rockin in the Free World
If you want the nitty gritty, Germany lost WWII because they broke their pact with Russia and attacked it too late, so the Russian winter basically got them.
Had they not broke the pact with Russia or had they started Operation Barbarosa in April instead of in June of 1941, we all might be singing a different tune now.
There are so many ifs, there is no telling. What if Hitler intervened less and actually let his generals call all the war shots?
What if Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbour. America may well have sat that lil skirmish out.
__________________
"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo.



Keep on Rockin in the Free World
Dude, the guy was preparing for another go at it. What do you think his biological warfare against the Kurds was all about? Do you know how many he exterminated between 2000 and 2003?
Why are you bringing up the word Muslim? Muslims also fight among themselves. What do you think Sunni and Shiite is all about?
Where did Sadamm get the biological weapons in the first place? hmmmm, it will come to me.


oh thats right.




On February 9th, 1994, Senator Riegle delivered a report -commonly known at the Riegle Report- in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."

Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that authored the aforementioned Riegle Report, said:

U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 separate agents "with biological warfare significance," according to Riegle's investigators.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...%80%93Iraq_war



Where did Sadamm get the biological weapons in the first place? hmmmm, it will come to me.


oh thats right.




On February 9th, 1994, Senator Riegle delivered a report -commonly known at the Riegle Report- in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."

Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that authored the aforementioned Riegle Report, said:

U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 separate agents "with biological warfare significance," according to Riegle's investigators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...%80%93Iraq_war
Ok, so what's your point? You acknowledge he had them and he did use them. The fact that we supported dictators and installed governments and took out dictators doesn't negate the fact that in politics yesterday's friends are today's enemies and vice versa. Saddam has no one else to blame but himself for being a greedy pig and getting the fate that befell him. He did test that biological warfare and was getting ready to do more but Karma caught up with the Middle East Napoleon wannabee.
Had he been content just to enjoy his palaces in his country and avoid confrontation and expansion, had he kept the oil agreements flowing, he would now still be playing Boss of Iraq instead of pushing daisies and his crazy sons could have gone on to enjoy more rape, plunder and murder but Karma caught up with them , too.
I shed no tears for such a nice family and Iraq and the world is definitely better off without them. God works in mysterious ways and in this case He took a Budhist belief and made the US the executor of his will.



I'm just watching this Tebow report....I'm a virgin and such. America's news is worst than Australia...what a joke! When he pots his knee, he'll want some lovin..lol!



Where did Sadamm get the biological weapons in the first place? hmmmm, it will come to me.


oh thats right.




On February 9th, 1994, Senator Riegle delivered a report -commonly known at the Riegle Report- in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."

Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that authored the aforementioned Riegle Report, said:

U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 separate agents "with biological warfare significance," according to Riegle's investigators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...%80%93Iraq_war
By the way, that's Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand ( just in case you didn't know ).



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
For the first time, Capitol Hill Republican veterans are saying that the winner of the presidential race will be able to claim a mandate for his policies.
“This is a referendum on taxes,” Rep. Tom Cole (R-Okla.), a senior member of the House Budget Committee, told the Washington Post late last week. “If the president wins reelection, taxes are going up” for the nation’s wealthiest households, and “there’s not a lot we can do about that.”
“I hope, obviously, the status quo doesn’t prevail” on Nov. 6,” Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., told the Post. “But if things stay as they are, and all the players are generally the same ...finding a responsible reform for Medicare is the secret to unleashing very productive talks that would put in place a balanced solution to our fiscal problems. If you deal with the Medicare issue, then Republicans are far more open to looking at revenues.”
The implications of this sudden change in tone by at least some Republicans on Capitol Hill is obvious: Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke and a raft of other policy makers and politicians have been warning for months – to little avail -- that the country was headed for a fiscal cliff that would put an enormous drag on the economy and potentially throw millions more of Americans out of work.
Now, the two parties are beginning to talk about finding ways to buy time after the election to work out a grand bargain of sorts that will avert a wholesale increase in taxes and block deep automatic cuts in defense. And they are acknowledging that increased tax revenues will be on the table for discussion. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner met with House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, and House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp, R-Mich., according to Politico. The meeting with Camp focused on the year-end expiration of tax rates.
__________________
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It's interesting to me that the ONLY two guys who have ever passed any kind of government healthcare legislation (state/federal) are the two guys on the ballot this time.

It's also interesting that both of these dudes get their money from the same general concerns (Wall Street in particular).

If you mix blue and red together you get purple and that's the color I paint this election.

We get two (pre vetted) 'selections' so people can argue about the surface stuff that doesn't matter and feel like their votes actually make a difference. It didn't matter whether McCain or Obama won the election, the wall street guys still had their concerns well represented. The same goes for this election.

My prediction: Romney will win and it will become part of his job to sell government healthcare to republicans (since Obama couldn't do it and the money people have evidently figured out how to profit from it). Taxes will go up slightly for the middle class, we'll still be at war somewhere, the economy won't change much as corporate interests continue to fleece the middle class & no one will legislate social hot button issues. FFW four more years.

In four years (unless global warming, the failed enemy, proves fatal.. or maybe 2012, the mayan prophecy wipes us all out) people will still be arguing about whether it's fair or not that the rich don't pay a few extra percentage points in taxes, gay folk will still be discriminated against, abortion will still be legal yadda yadda yadda.

The power center in America has changed. It used to be Washington, now it's Wall Street. The president (since Clinton) even makes appearances on TV shows these days for ratings (and people watching those will sit through a few commercials).

The election show is nothing more than eye candy these days. Two guys sell idealism, one way or another, 70% of the country engages in bi%ch fighting over it while nothing of value changes because the status quo is making money for the most influential/powerful people.

Anyway, off my soapbox.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Is the GOP Still a National Party?

By Daniel McCarthySeptember 24, 2012
2004 Presidential Election Result by County/Parish. Wikimedia Commons.

There are reasons to think it isn’t: Republicans have failed to win a plurality of voters (or a majority of the two-party vote) in four of the last five presidential elections. The single win was 2004, when George W. Bush was re-elected by the lowest margin of any successful incumbent since 1828. GOP talking points at the time touted Bush’s victory as a historic landslide because the map of sparsely populated counties he won (see above) covered almost the entire U.S. Therein lies a tale.
Republicans have enjoyed a state-level resurgence even as they have lost — and lost big — their once commanding national majority. The GOP was once the landslide party, the party of Eisenhower ’52 and ’56, Nixon ’72, and Reagan ’84. Even Bush I’s 53.4 percent in 1988 was very respectable. Reagan’s 50.7 percent in 1980 wasn’t a landslide but still demonstrated that an outright popular majority supported the Republican. In the five elections before ’92, the GOP won popular majorities in four.
The parties have almost switched places since then. The popular-vote success of the Democrats in the last five elections is less impressive: they won an outright majority only once, in 2008. Far from balancing the scales, though, this highlights all the more the magnitude of the GOP’s electoral erosion: from being a party that won with majorities, the Republicans have declined to one that loses to pluralities.
The period in which this has happened corresponds to a historic resurgence of the GOP in Congress and at the state level. There’s an intuitive connection. Significantly fewer people vote in state and congressional elections than presidential elections. The GOP base is better organized and more engaged locally than Democrats are. But this actually undercuts the party at the national level. So well organized are the GOP’s ideological constituencies that they prevail in legislative primaries and push the party’s overall identity to the right. (That’s not the same as making it more “conservative,” as I’ll explain in a minute.) These ideological groups also have a great deal of muscle at the presidential primary or caucus level, but even beyond that, their success at the legislative level means that a presidential contender’s loyalty to the GOP brand — proof that he’s not a RINO — has to be demonstrated by professions of fealty to what is an essentially regional identity, not a national one.
If it seems needlessly complicated to suggest that two effects — grassroots muscle and general party branding — have to be invoked to explain the GOP’s unsuccessful presidential branding, consider this: if the only effect in play were the strength of grassroots right-wing constituencies, you wouldn’t expect the party to consistently nominate moderates like both Bushes, Dole, McCain, and Romney. None of those nominees had impeccable conservative credentials — far from it. But once they got the nomination, they didn’t run as the moderates they were; most of them sold themselves as being at least as right as Reagan, even in the general election. At least since 2004, this is because the party has pursued a base strategy: an attempt to eke out a narrow win by getting more Republicans to the polls than Democrats, with independents — a small and difficult-to-market-to demographic — basically ignored. The party tries to leverage its regional identity and regional organization into presidential victory. It has failed four times out of five.
The Democrats are regionally weaker, but this has paradoxically helped them in presidential elections: it means that a Bill Clinton or Barack Obama is not really very beholden to base Democratic groups like black voters. Clinton and Obama certainly organize their ethnic constituencies, but when they campaign in general elections they do not relentlessly highlight minority issues that other Americans find polarizing. Oftentimes, they’re hiding or even actively downplaying those issues (think Sister Souljah, Reverend Wright, or the party’s hot-and-cold emphasis on gay rights). The Democrats are less ideologically constrained by their factional interests.
Republicans tend to have a clear establishment front-runner going into their presidential contests, and that individual pretty much always wins the nomination, in part because he usually has far more money than his opponents. Indeed, that financial advantage allows the establishment front-runner to discourage viable semi-establishment opponents — your Mitch Daniels types — from even entering the race. That leaves the ideological groups to field their own non-viable standard-bearer — Huckabee or Santorum types. Because the eventual GOP nominee pursues a base strategy, though, he winds up embarrassing himself by trying to sound “severely conservative.” He has to get religious right and Tea Party voters to turn out for him. But even if they do, they’re not enough: those constituencies don’t add up to 50 percent of the electorate. Republicans are actually closer than Democrats to being the real 47 percent party. (Though it’s more accurate to say the GOP is the 48-49 percent party and the Democrats are the 49-50 percent party.)
This isn’t all about elections, however. The policy options that Congress and the president get to consider and the intellectual life of the nation are also warped by the GOP’s “47 percent” ideology. Because conservatives over-identify with the GOP, and the GOP’s identity is determined by factional and regional ideologies, the result is that conservatives take their definition of conservatism from the party and that definition is more regional- and interest-based than philosophical. This accounts for the spectacle of the GOP periodically getting worked up about “big government” while in fact expanding government — welfare state, warfare state, banning internet gambling, you name it — whenever it’s in power. The blue state/red state psychological divide is more fundamental to the party’s understanding of the world than is any consistent view of the proper extent and uses of government.
This is also why One Nation conservatism or even genuinely Reaganite conservatism, with its appeal to independents and Democrats as well as the base, is impossible today. The ideology of suburbia (“porky populism,” with its hatred of organic food and fetishistic attachment to SUVs and Wal-Mart) and the most intense expressions of heartland Protestantism, together with certain Southern good ol’ boy attitudes (less overt racism than a scratch-my-back-I’ll-scratch-yours ethos), are the matrix of GOP and “conservative” identity. The financial and neoconservative elites have designed ideologies of their own to integrate with this matrix: neocons spin their foreign policy as an expression of values (God and America are practically the same thing, aren’t they?), as a token of Protestant-Jewish solidarity (support for Israel), and as necessary for national honor and the Southern economy (wars and bases). Wall Street relies on Mitt’s 47 percent myth: the people who aren’t part of the GOP coalition are lazy and lack self-responsibility; i.e., they are sinful and un-Protestant, while the Gospel makes you rich and happy.
None of this has anything to do with the historic conservatism of Edmund Burke or John Adams, Russell Kirk or Robert Nisbet. It doesn’t even look like the capacious conservatism of Ronald Reagan. It’s a scam: it does little for values in the culture as a whole because the values in question are those of an ideological minority only interested in winning through minority-organization politics; it can’t look at big-picture economics because doing so would tick off the financial interests and get anyone who broached the question read out of conservatism by Wall Street’s coalition allies. A traditionalist or consistently libertarian critic would be perceived as speaking up for lazy immoral city-dwelling welfare queens. This fanciful identity politics, and not principled economics, is what lies behind talk about “socialism,” “big government,” and the “47 percent.” If the case were otherwise, you’d see the anti-dependency case made against the Pentagon, defense contractors, churches taking government money, and red-state recipients of all kinds of largesse. I don’t see Republicans talking about that, with a handful of exceptions whose last name is usually “Paul.”
I’m not the biggest fan of Eisenhower or Nixon, but they (and Reagan) are clearly preferable to this post-Reagan Republican Party. Those presidents won national majorities for a reason. They weren’t strict conservatives, but they certainly weren’t any less conservative than the Bushes, McCain, or Romney. They didn’t pretend they were going to abolish the welfare state — often, they didn’t even pretend they would cut the welfare state — unlike so many of today’s Republicans, who don’t follow through but do use their rhetoric to polarize. That gives us the worst of both worlds: big government plus the delusional sense within one party that it represents the antithesis of big government and may freely hate other Americans who don’t mouth the mantra. And what goes for big government goes for Judeo-Christian values, a strong national defense, and all the rest: the GOP’s rhetoric occupies a separate mental compartment from its actions, even as its voters and ideological apologists continue to believe that there is a profound moral difference between them and the rest of the country. It’s a losing strategy, and worse, it’s made the country ungovernable even as government grows.
Daniel McCarthy is the editor of The American Conservative.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
It's interesting to me that the ONLY two guys who have ever passed any kind of government healthcare legislation (state/federal) are the two guys on the ballot this time.

It's also interesting that both of these dudes get their money from the same general concerns (Wall Street in particular).

If you mix blue and red together you get purple and that's the color I paint this election.

We get two (pre vetted) 'selections' so people can argue about the surface stuff that doesn't matter and feel like their votes actually make a difference. It didn't matter whether McCain or Obama won the election, the wall street guys still have their concerns well represented. The same goes for this election.

My prediction: Romney will win and it will become part of his job to sell government healthcare to republicans (since Obama couldn't do it and the money people have evidently figured out how to profit from it). Taxes will go up slightly for the middle class, we'll still be at war somewhere, the economy won't change much as corporate interests continue to fleece the middle class & no one will legislate social hot button issues. FFW four more years.

In four years (unless global warming, the failed enemy, proves fatal.. or maybe 2012, the mayan prophecy wipes us all out) people will still be arguing about whether it's fair or not that the rich don't pay a few extra percentage points in taxes, gay folk will still be discriminated against, abortion will still be legal yadda yadda yadda.

The power center in America has changed. It used to be Washington, now it's Wall Street. The president (since Clinton) even makes appearances on TV shows these days for ratings (and people watching those will sit through a few commercials).

The election show is nothing more than eye candy these days. Two guys sell idealism, one way or another, 70% of the country engages in bi%ch fighting over it while nothing of value changes because the status quo is making money for the most influential/powerful people.

Anyway, off my soapbox.
I gave a rep for the first sentence.

But unless something dramatic happens to change things around, Romney is toast thanks to 47 percent, which has to be the dumbest thing anyone running for President has said. That is causing the Obama bump now, not the conventions.



As you can see from the above map, some states are red and some states are blue, though strangely no states are purple. This clearly represents the on-going friction between expression of self-determination versus necessary social stability, with Romney embodying the right to be rich and shallow for the sake of The Base whereas Obama embodies the hopes and dreams of everyday hopers and dreamers who dare to believe they can build cities on rock & roll. In the coming election, the fate of a nation hangs in the balance and salvation hinges on the common man's ability to distinguish hypocrisy from mediocrity. Two parties contend, each a dark vision of fear and desire painted broad across the psyche of a country running on empty, and there can be only one. May the most pettily grandiloquent win.
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I gave a rep for the first sentence.

But unless something dramatic happens to change things around, Romney is toast thanks to 47 percent, which has to be the dumbest thing anyone running for President has said. That is causing the Obama bump now, not the conventions.
You read my post, makes no difference which corporate shill takes up free residence in the whitehouse IMO.

The REAL candidates won't get on the ballot.

If Obama wins then I'm glad you'll be happy (and vise-versa).



2022 Mofo Fantasy Football Champ
Realistically, it won't matter who wins in my opinion. America will find a way to complain either way, yet the wheels on the bus will still go round and round.



I don't remember asking you a ******* thing!
I never realized that there was this thread here. I don't like getting involved in politics, but I figured I'd throw my two cents out there, even thought I'm not very politically literate.

I can clearly see Obama winning another term, to be honest. I may not agree with a lot of his policies, but his economic policies seem to be working to some extent. I mean, the unemployment rate is slowly dropping. Maybe not at the rate we all anticipated, but it's something. That means more jobs are slowly being created. If less people are applying for unemployment, that usually means they're out looking for a job. Obama might not be as popular now as when he took office, but I still think he can get the job done. I blame Congress more than anything because Republicans are so damn near-sighted with Obama's policies that they just won't agree with any compromise.

As for Romney, I believe he shot himself in the foot one too many times. First, there's that off-the-cuff comment about the 47 percent and his poor scripted attempts to gloss over the situation. His policies about the economy are just what helped the recession start in 2008 when Bush was still President. Plus, I've heard his speeches without the ads in the background, and I honestly don't buy that he really "gets" what's going on. I think he'll give Obama a good fight, but in the end he's just gonna end up running again in 2016.

And those are my thoughts on the matter. As I said, I'm not entirely politically literate, so stuff like foreign policy and other things like that are lost on me. I just think Obama needs a little more time and effort in order to see his policies shine, because he has some great ideas on how to help America. They're just not being implemented properly due to a very unproductive Congress.



Realistically, it won't matter who wins in my opinion. America will find a way to complain either way, yet the wheels on the bus will still go round and round.
No country has much rubber left for these wheels mate. People aren't revolting just because they have some complaints.



Do you really want Republicans in office again? You are better than me!