Golden Compass (Anti God flick released at Christmas, bad taste?)

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Tyger, Tyger, Burning Bright
But I suppose this was/is my point....no "one" film/book might finally sway you, me or someone else, but at the right time and in the right environment, it-- in combination with a host of other influences that coincide/collaborate with the subject-- it (arguably) could be the instrument that "tips" the scale one way or the other.
OK... you are using "the straw that breaks the camel's back" idea... if, for example, you take the movie and subject (atheism) that this is about, then you are saying that in a very special set of circumstances, that the movie could be the last thing to tip the balance...

"Tipping the balance" is hardly the fault of that movie in my mind then. To get to the point we are talking about, that child would have had to have been exposed to a heck of a lot of other influences first, and THAT would have probably been the result of the parents (or whoever is raising the child). So again, it comes back to the influence of the parents as the overriding factor.

It all just seems that there is an awful lot of heaping of negativity in that article first mentioned, making it seem that, if your child goes to see these movies, s/he will forever be changed, will become an atheist, etc... when in reality, they are just a couple of movies that the kids will in all probability forget about as soon as they find the next "cool" thing to go see...
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I've always believed that people not just want but need stories in a very fundamental way.

There is good evidence that ancient man gathered tribes together for the purpose of storytelling and of relating tribal events to one another. Man is a social animal and storytelling as teacher and entertainer has been inherent in every culture since the very dawn of mankind. The Bible, the Koran, the Torah etc are all chock full of parables that are not strictly historical but are meant to teach the reader a lesson.

I think some of you folks are selling the importance of stories to man far too short. I believe them to be part of the lifeblood of who and what we are.

Modern books, television, movies etc are all just vehicles to promote story. We seek it, we crave it, we love it because we need it.



Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
I've always believed that people not just want but need stories in a very fundamental way.

There is good evidence that ancient man gathered tribes together for the purpose of storytelling and of relating tribal events to one another. Man is a social animal and storytelling as teacher and entertainer has been inherent in every culture since the very dawn of mankind. The Bible, the Koran, the Torah etc are all chock full of parables that are not strictly historical but are meant to teach the reader a lesson.

I think some of you folks are selling the importance of stories to man far too short. I believe them to be part of the lifeblood of who and what we are.

Modern books, television, movies etc are all just vehicles to promote story. We seek it, we crave it, we love it because we need it.
I very definitely agree. In fact, my theory (if you'll indulge me) is that the reason man created language was for storytelling. There's no real reason to create words for "run like hell, it's a LION!!" - screaming and running would suffice. But certainly you'd want words for, "and I ran like hell because there was a LION!!". And it seems to me that those early stories served the purpose of relating experience, and unifying the tribe. What one person experienced and shared through storytelling became a shared experience. Those shared experienced had a homogenizing effect on the group, creating unity.

The teaching aspect would logically follow. And the corruption of the teaching aspect... sadly... wouldn't be all that far behind.

The beauty of the HDM trilogy, to me, is that it relates a story we all know the elements of, in a way that repurifies it and makes it a shared experience again. It's really not about us and them - despite what anyone claims is the agenda behind it. It's about concepts that are older and deeper than that. I just hope the films stay true to those concepts.
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Edit: I wrote this post late last night, so the original draft was full of typos and incoherent statements. Now all typos & errors in grammers have been fixed, so I hope you enjoy this post or find something in these words that will be meaningful to you.

With the highest regards,
T.S. Ellis - 10/28/07

I really wish I had not seen this thread. I do everything I can to avoid any serious religious discussions held outside of any educational forum or scholarly institutes. Public discussions of god, religion, & all thing spiritual never go anywhere because there aren't any rules of discussion established or some kind of moderator to make sure the debate doesn't become a redundent shouting match. Further more, 99% of people already have their mind made up one way or the other, so without the presence of any real or documented evidence on either side of the debate, no one is going to be persuaded out of their beliefs.

Never the less, I can't walk away from this topic since I have a unique perspective on Philip Pullman & his acclaimed trilogy titled, 'His Dark Materials' because I was a student & intern under Philip Pullman for 6 months while I was studying abroad in Oxford as apart of the Scholars Exchange program in the junior year of my undergrad studies. So with absolute honesty I can say he has been the greatest influence on my life.(with the exception of my grandfather, C.P. Ellis.)

Philip Pullman took a 20 year old boy who knew way too much on every subject but life & used his knowledge only for childish self serving purposes & built the incubating chrysalis that started a metamorphosis that maded him become a man who uses his talents to try & make a difference in order to give homage to the blessing of everyday life that are taken for granted.

Now, before I continue I want to make something clear to anyone who reads this post. I have not read any of the posts that precede my own. So if any point or position I take somehow transgresses on the opinions of others, or unknowingly copies any points made in this post, please forgive me that was not my intent. With this being said, let me address the topic at hand.

First, I will confirm that Philip Pullman has been documented as a self-professed atheist, though I know for a fact that he is using the term in the most vague sense of the word. Having been apart of this discussion several times with him in assemblies, course lectures, & in private we share the same sentiment when it comes to the questions & beliefs of 'God' or any all powerful diety that may hold influence over the world. We believe that it is pointless to take a stance either way, because you can't spend your time on this earth asking questions that can & will only be answered when we pass away. So to pursue 'God' while you are living is a fool's arrand. We all have been seeking him from the moment we were born & every second that passes in our life we are closer to locating him through our continued existence. So to search for something that can't be discovered until our consciousness on this planet comes to an end, is a waste of the time we are given to use for earthly pursuits.

The problems & accusations come when you are forced to give your view point in public. The liturgical members of these ossified religious sects who are so adamant in their beliefs that they will not let you walk away until you define your beliefs in the black and white terms of yes I believe or no I don't believe in God.

After the first print of,'The Golden Compass' hit the book shelves he was able to avoid the subject of spiritual convictions, because the first book doesn't address the ideology of religion as does halfway through the second book,'The Subtle Knife' & through out 'The Amber Spyglass.' In the first novel. (Only known as 'Northern Lights' when it was first released throughout Great Britian) Anyt reference to 'The Church' of Lyra's realm is vague ( I say Lyra's realm because the second & third book is set in several alternate realms that are similar but not with distinct biological changes.) so the only thing that is made clear is the alliances of any characters & the cryptic ulterior motives of 'The Church' in their attempts to capture Lyra.

Now, these accusations of being Anti-God come from events in,'The Subtle Knife' & throughout, 'The Amber Spyglass'. I am won't go into vivid details on the novel, because I am not going to ruin the story for anyone who has read the trilogy, but there are a couple of concepts to have to be revealed for the sake of the point I am trying to make.

The following opinions I am about to share aren't mine alone, they were influenced & verified by author in our conversations together. While writing 'His Dark Materials,' he wasn't intending to castigate God. He is making a social commentary our world and the influence of organized religion that has used it's position of power in numbers by proclaiming to represent the will of God to hold sway over the growth & advancement of our society & humanity, as well as intervening in the diplomacy between nations, & fueling violent conflicts over rights to lands by proclamation of God, conflicting spiritual beliefs, & pigment of skin.

Any artist, author, politician, or public figure of any kind who has dared to address organized religion in a light not favorable to their self-cast image, becomes the victim of verbal assualts & accusions which is broadcast to millions to label them as 'Anti-God' & a demonic figure intent on collapsing the moral structure of man who would leave us at the mercy of thieves, rapists, & murderers if not for the protection given by religions. Yet, after all this time I am still looking for one verse in 'The Bible' or 'The Koran' where is says one interpretation is right & the rest our wrong.

Now let me clarify that Philip Pullman isn't 'Anti-God' because that is the furthest thing from the truth. He is anti-any organization that manipulates spiritual belief to control simple people who only want peace & truth in their life. So religion makes promises that they will receive all that & riches bewyond their wildest dreams after they die & as absurd as it sounds it works, so they become pawn for political & economical influence as well as a renewable source of revenue to fund their secret ventures.

In the final novel of the trilogy there is a war that takes place between scientists & learned beings who clash with 'The Church' & their alliance with celestial dieties. This war represents the struggles between the scientific knowledge, beliefs, & discovery of men & women which have all but put an end to superstitious belief. While 'The Church' & the dieties that fight with them represents how religion has used the belief in God & fear of God's wrath by manipulating ancient scriptures deemed holy & alter the translation without sharing their method of doing so, in order to prevent the rise & influence of science or any alternative idea that opposes their own interests, no matter how much it could change society for the better & an example of this is stem cell research. As human becomes all the more capable of preventing death or end the biological deficiencies that plague humanity, when in the past the only option was prayer and belief in god in hopes of a miracle, religion is afraid this will dwendle the numbers of men,women, & children that look to them for love & hope of better things & give what little money or possessions they have which built the exstravagant temples, cathedrals, & pieces which represent their power. So now the leaders of these sects have stop being these so called holy man ordained by God to deliver his word & have become fearmongers who snarl & show their teeth in order to keep a hold on all of our wealth & possessions which they believe is theirs by right.

If there is a God watching over all of us with promises of paradise when our consciousness ends on this earth, then believe me when I say going to a lavish building for two hours twice a week to listen to some old fart tell grandiose stories about a apocolyptic struggle between good & evil that goes on while you are not looking, isn't going to get you to heaven any faster.

What matters is how you live your life. If you are kind, charitable, fair, honest, & take the time to help those in need then there are great things promised for you long after you spend your last aware moment on this Earth & this statement holds true whether or not there is or isn't a God in heaven who watches over us, because when you do good & you are good to others then a chain of events begins to take place which continues on long after you are dead & at the end of these chain of events you set in motion is some form of occurrence that will make the world better for humanity & better for all forms of life inside this eco-galaxy.



Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
God is not about telling people what to do. He's about people getting in touch with their own feelings to do the right thing.
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God is not about telling people what to do. He's about people getting in touch with their own feelings to do the right thing.
That is a decent moral to live by if there is a God or even there isn't a God. Never the less, I can't take it upon myself to try define the motives of a devine being.

I have considered the possibility that his purpose has already been placed in our since birth, so I will try to give an example of the meaning behind that thought.

When I was 3, my mother took me into K-Mart to go shopping. During this trip I came across a packet of balloons that I wanted so I put them in my pocket & as soon as I did, I knew it was wrong without having this explanation to me, or any form of right or wrong behavior. Even at 3 years old, which is the average age when we become conscious & can story memories, I understood the meaning behind my action. So in philosophical terms, we have a predetermined knowledge of right and wrong & good or evil, through predetermined conscience to navigate morality.

I know it sounds campy, but that is as close as I can get to attempting to define celestial motive.



Thanks tsellisjr for the thoughtful reply and for sharing your opinions on Pullman.

Firstly I'll chide you (mildly ) for not reading the thread before responding. It's not a long thread and it would make others who have taken the time to compose their thoughts on the subject feel equally appreciated in posting their stances as you hope feel in your own i.e if you want to comment and be read you should do the same for others.

Believe me when I tell you that this thread wasn't intended to put down or castigate anyone's beliefs, including Mr. Pullman's. I read the quote from Pullman's 2003 interview where he apparently said "My books are about killing God." For some reason that, coupled with the fact that the film is being released in December ( a month commonly associated with Christmas) sparked something in my mind that told me that the timing could be construed as disrespectful to those millions of people who consider Christmas (and the associated season) to be a sacred time of the year.

That's it. It was meant to be as simple as that. Since the time of the original posting I've read up quite a bit on Mr. Pullman and have found that philosophically he and I share a lot of common ground along with being completely disconnected on some issues.

That's fine, that's cool, that's what makes the world go round and, like I said, I wasn't condemning the man for his beliefs but only calling the timing of the film release into question.



Before my reply, let me introduce myself. The name is Tim, you can call me Timothy, T.S., or whatever fits your fancy & it is a pleasure to meet you Sir Toose.

Let me first, apologize for not taking the time to read the posts from the participants & please believe me when I say I was in no way, shape, or form trying to dismiss the work or opinions of anyone who preceeded me in this discussion & I was in no way, trying to place myself above anyone when I shared my past experience. I was short on time when I spotted the topic & if I didn't address it in some way before I left my apartment, it would bother me for hours & ruin the plans I had made with others.

When I authored my post, I wasn't trying to dispute you in any way or accuse you of trying to assassinate the character, of Philip. I am familier with the statement as well, it was recorded in an interview that took place just over three years after I left, Oxford. The reason I feld obligated to make a post at that moment was to give you and everyone who is speaking on his behalf a deeper perspective & understanding of his modivation behind the creation of the series.

So please forgive me, if I somehow gave the impression that it was me against everyone in this thread, that was not my motive. I should have taken the time to clarify my reasoning, but this is my mistake that I make time & time again because my manner of conversation & interaction online, is exactly how I speak in public. So I often forget that key elements of communication such as tone & expression are not available to assist in determining reason.

I had intended to read the complete thread on my first break from my work, but I had to address another topic I had created last night, which was getting out of hand. So I give you my word that I will examine the whole thread very shortly once all my tasks for the day have been completed.

Thank you for your reply absent of rash judgement, I appreciate your diplomatic demeanor used to address the situation, & I hope this leads to a long friendship & alliance to share opinions in order to learn from each other.

With High Regards,

T.S. Ellis



I just read the thread. That's a lotta threadage to squeeze into 49 posts, it's clear that everyone has a strong, mostly predetermined set-in-stone opinion.

So to quote 2 great religious leaders;

Gandhi: I am a Hindu. And I am a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew and a Sikh.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

I'm really looking forward to the movie. Polar Bears in armour?

That's badass.
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it's clear that everyone has a strong, mostly predetermined set-in-stone opinion.
That's clear to you from this thread?

We started out with a premise (mine) that the Christmas release date of a film, the substance of which is tagged 'anti God' by the writer, could be considered to be in bad taste.

From there, we argued the semantics of a few possible interpretations of Jefferson's separation of church and state and continued onward to the writer's (Pullman) possible motivations in writing his stories.

Holden Pike beat me up a little, Memnon and I traded a few punches, tsellis shared a great anecdotal story, I told a joke or two and we parted company friends.

I wouldn't classify anyone's behavior in this thread as a 'set-in-stone' opinion on anything. Mine certainly isn't, I'm usually wise enough to not paint myself into a corner because that's what all that stone setting eventually does.

As for Polar Bears in body armor, your point is well taken.



I'm not into spankings. Heathen.

I'm not making any final judgment on them, but Pullman himself has made his intentions clear; the quotes on Snopes are downright blatant, actually. Ironically, I had thought up until now that his agenda was a bit hazier, but apparently not.

Anyway, apart from the author's own admissions, the plot has been described in great detail to me; that's not an exaggeration, either. My lady friend and I talked about it for over an hour solid on one occasion, and nearly as long at other times. This does not make me an authority, but I'm not quite going off of a dust jacket, either.

Either way, this will be a moot point (hopefully) soon, as I've blocked out a a fair amount of reading time this weekend.


Sure. But those people are crazy, Rowling denies it, and in that case the crazy people couldn't cite anything in the books to support the idea.


Pullman's own words on the matter suggest a problem with all theism, not just Christianity, and certainly not just with Churches. Nevertheless, the distinction between the religion and the church is not an especially comforting one, especially given the "every Church is the same" quote.

As for the books being about positive things; I have no trouble believing that. I don't think Pullman is a Satanist, immoral, or anything of the sort. And perhaps his message is just vague enough for some deniability when it comes to specifics. But the agenda is there; it's evident in the events of the third book, and Pullman is perfectly (and commendably) open about it.
How much of "the author's own admissions" have you read, Yoda, beyond the text of the message posted on Snopes? Do you know for a fact that posting contains Philip Pullman's actual words and is not just an opponent putting words in his mouth?

On Pullman's own web site
http://www.philip-pullman.com/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=36
under FAQs, there is the following question and reply:

"His Dark Materials (trilogy) seems to be against organized religion. Do you believe in God?"

"I don't know whether there's a God or not. Nobody does, no matter what they say. I think it's perfectly possible to explain how the universe came about without bringing God into it, but I don't know everything, and there may well be a God somewhere, hiding away.

"Actually, if he is keeping out of sight, it's because he's ashamed of his followers and all the cruelty and ignorance they're responsible for promoting in his name. If I were him, I'd want nothing to do with them."

Elsewhere on his website, he reports his books "have been honored by several prizes, including the Carnegie Medal, the Guardian Children's Book Award, and (for The Amber Spyglass) the Whitbread Book of the Year Award - the first time in the history of that prize that it was given to a children's book."

So unless one subscribes to a Satanic influence within the children's book section of the worldwide publishing industry, one would have to conclude that some people familar with that business have found some merit in Pullman's books.

I can't testify myself, having never read his books nor even heard of him or his books until I received a copy of that email from the same source who emails me copies of right-wing views on Hillary Clinton, illegal immigration, and homosexuality, among other issues. But I'm willing to give Pullman the benefit of the doubt until someone actually proves his books and resulting films are any more harmful or persuasive than Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, that "Lion and the Wardrobe" film or the Dungeons & Dragon games, all of which have had their critics at one time or another.



Yeah, yeah, you're right about that, I'm sure I read too much into the timing of the release date. It still doesn't negate the fact that I find the timing to be in poor taste, which is the point that I was originally making.

And yes, I'm certifiable.
Don't a lot of producers race to have their best films open at least by December in order to qualify for that year's academy awards, with the ballots being distributed early in the coming year when the latest blockbusters are fresh in mind? Would it have been wiser to open that film next Spring, say somewhere around Easter?



How much of "the author's own admissions" have you read, Yoda, beyond the text of the message posted on Snopes? Do you know for a fact that posting contains Philip Pullman's actual words and is not just an opponent putting words in his mouth?
I've actually done a good deal of web-searching on Pullman's views, and the quotes on Snopes are certainly in line with what I've found. As for the accuracy of Snopes itself; it is invariably beyond reproach. They're probably the foremost site on the Internet in regards to debunking rumors and urban legends, and I am entirely comfortable putting trust in their reports. They have shown themselves to be incredibly thorough and even-handed, so if they said he said those things, you can count on it.

Nothing I'm saying or claiming, however, relies on the rant at the top of the page, which appears to contain conjecture and exaggeration.

So unless one subscribes to a Satanic influence within the children's book section of the worldwide publishing industry, one would have to conclude that some people familar with that business have found some merit in Pullman's books.
As well they should. From what I've read so far (I started the first book last week), and from all I've heard, the books have plenty of merit. I don't believe I've suggested otherwise.

I can't testify myself, having never read his books nor even heard of him or his books until I received a copy of that email from the same source who emails me copies of right-wing views on Hillary Clinton, illegal immigration, and homosexuality, among other issues. But I'm willing to give Pullman the benefit of the doubt until someone actually proves his books and resulting films are any more harmful or persuasive than Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, that "Lion and the Wardrobe" film or the Dungeons & Dragon games, all of which have had their critics at one time or another.
I think this is the heart of the issue. I don't think Pullman's position is really disputable, and I don't think the fact that the series has an agenda is, either. I think the arguments here are largely based around the fact that a lot of wackos are being very loud about the books, and nobody likes to be on the same side of an issue as a wacko.

To borrow a famous quip from Baltasar Gracian, I think we should all avoid "[taking] the wrong side of an argument just because [our] opponent has taken the right side." When someone calls a book "anti-God" they're usually overreacting. My position is that, in this instance, it doesn't appear that they are. After all, even wackos are right sometimes.



Don't a lot of producers race to have their best films open at least by December in order to qualify for that year's academy awards, with the ballots being distributed early in the coming year when the latest blockbusters are fresh in mind? Would it have been wiser to open that film next Spring, say somewhere around Easter?

How many times will it be that I have to concede the same point? Since you quoted my concession of Holden's point I'm assuming you want me to concede it again?

This will make 3 times in the same thread if anyone else would care to point out a point that's already been conceded feel free and I will concede it as many times as you all would like for me to do so.



Seriously. Tom Cruise is a f_ckin' idiot.
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Tyger, Tyger, Burning Bright
How many times will it be that I have to concede the same point? Since you quoted my concession of Holden's point I'm assuming you want me to concede it again?

This will make 3 times in the same thread if anyone else would care to point out a point that's already been conceded feel free and I will concede it as many times as you all would like for me to do so.
ummm... I can't think of any others right now, but how about conceding that I was right about everything? I don't know about what, but, hey, if I can get you to do that here, I can use that in the future on anything else!



I am so glad I finally read through this thread a couple of days ago, I knew the posts were going to be good, but they exceed all my expectations.

The best thing about, Christmas for me.. is watching Christians, who would die to defend it, since they consider it 'Jesus's Birthday' though Jesus was infact, born in Summer if we go by the circumstances given by the bible.

Not to mention that, the holiday was a pagan holiday started by the Romans, where the upper class men would celebrate the Winter Solstice by raping young boys after they gave each other presents. (Any Christians planning to pm me to dispute this, don't I have already listen to every argument from the Roman celebrations name only sounds like Christmas to It's only a rumor. No, it's fact recognized & documented by the first christians in religious scrolls long before the bible was put together. Not to mention there are several Torah Scrolls that document them as well, that I have looked at with my own eyes at Duke U. Divinity School.)

Other then that, before I forget to respond to Refneck's comment on movies being rushed to in order to meet Oscar criteria, it does happen but in the case of 'The Golden Compass' & the majority of major motion picture releases, is the majority of families attend movies at this time of year, since families come together over the holidays, kids off to college come home, so the big releases in winters are films agreeable with everyone in a family.



"As I understand it, in the last book, a boy and girl are depicted representing Adam and Eve and they kill God, who at times is called YAHWEH (which is definitely not Allah)."


really? I didn't believe all this anti religion hype for this movie/ book because it could be all someones interpretation. But if it goes so far as to have 2 characters (Adam and Eve even) kill YAHWEH... then ya, I can see it now.
If i remember my world religions class correctly, YAHWEH is how you read God in Israeli and the Jewish name for God, or something like that.
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