Movie Club for June 23- A Clockwork Orange

My first time posting for this club...

I chose this movie because of Stanley Kubricks...uniqueness (if that is how you spell it). I don't know what it is about his movies that draw me to them...but I am fascinated in how he applies certain things in his movies.

Honestly...I didn't like this movie at first...Alex's eye in the beginning freaks me out. But..in all fairness I gave it another try. I notice that Stanley Kubrick enjoys his nudity in his movies.
The description for this movie is....from Amazon.com...

Stanley Kubrick's striking visual interpretation of Anthony Burgess's famous novel is a masterpiece. Malcolm McDowell delivers a clever, tongue-in-cheek performance as Alex, the leader of a quartet of droogs, a vicious group of young hoodlums who spend their nights stealing cars, fighting rival gangs, breaking into people's homes, and raping women. While other directors would simply exploit the violent elements of such a film without subtext, Kubrick maintains Burgess's dark, satirical social commentary. We watch Alex transform from a free-roaming miscreant into a convict used in a government experiment that attempts to reform criminals through an unorthodox new medical treatment. The catch, of course, is that this therapy may be nothing better than a quick cure-all for a society plagued by rampant crime. A Clockwork Orange works on many levels--visual, social, political, and sexual--and is one of the few films that hold up under repeated viewings. Kubrick not only presents colorfully arresting images, he also stylizes the film by utilizing classical music (and Wendy Carlos's electronic classical work) to underscore the violent scenes, which even today are disturbing in their display of sheer nihilism. Ironically, many fans of the film have missed that point, sadly being entertained by its brutality rather than being repulsed by it. --Bryan Reesman

I must admit that I very much enjoyed this movie...although it isn't one of my all time SK faves..it sure is up there...

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Plus a lady fan of PimpDaShizzle V2.0 and Most importantly JRS

I'll be posting comments today or tomorrow when I have more time.

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ah i love that book and the movie

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On one hand this is a great selection because there is so much material in this movie to talk about, but on the other hand it's almost not so great because there is so much to talk about that we can't possibly get through it alll.

Anyways, Kong is glad that this was chosen, and Kong loves this film. We could talk about how good it was, and the acting, and music and all that, but what really makes this movie so good is all of the issues it brings up. So, Kong is going to feebly attempt to talk about a few of them.


Does commercialism feed violence?
The film opens in a milk bar, where the narrator tells us that you can get various drugs in the milk to sharpen you up for some ultra-violence. What does this symbolize? Kong thinks that the film might be suggesting that commercialism feeds us the idea of hedonism and in turn that will manifest itself as violence in some people. (Later the film throws politics into the overall mix, but for simplicity's sake Kong will not discuss that in this post.)

Think about the choice of milk as the product that sharpens them for ultra-violence? Is milk not a fantastic example of an unnecessary commercial product? Humans are the only species to drink milk past infancy, and the only species to drink the milk of another species. Milk is completely unneeded, and it's drank only for its pleasure, which is often the central tenent of advertising campaigns. Companies tell us we should buy their product because it will make our lives more enjoyable, and we don't need any other reason. This reinforces a "me, me, me!" philosophy that seems to be quite apparent in the characters of A Clockwork Orange. Still don't believe that the milk is symbolic? Remember what Dim hit Alex with after he killed that cat lady which resulted in his capture by the police? That's right. It was a bottle of milk. So, not only does milk prime him for violent acts, but it's also a cause of his downfall.

Is Kong making too much of a stretch? Or is Kong onto something? Anyone wish to take these ideas even further, or should we discusss some other issues like the amazing amount of phallic symbols present in the movie?

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Like I said when I posted this pick for Moviefan20 in the Movie Club thread, it’s a movie buff’s wet dream.

Yes, that’s how you spell “uniqueness,” and he certainly is. It’s amazing when you look at his filmography to see how many different genres he covered, and most of those films have been critically acclaimed masterpieces!

This was the fourth time I had seen this film, but because of the MoFo Movie Club, I watched it with a whole new attitude. I wanted to make sure certain questions were answered when I was finished:

1) What does the title have to do with the story?
2) What does all the pornographic art symbolize?
3) What does the Milk-Plus and the milk bar symbolize?
4) What is the overall message and meaning regarding the attempt to reform Alex?

The first question wasn’t answered after watching the film. I had to get some help from Tim Dirks at filmsite.org. This is how he explains the meaning of the title:

...the Cockney phrase from East London, "as queer as a clockwork orange" - indicating something bizarre internally, but appearing natural, human, and normal on the surface.

The second and third questions tie in with Kong’s theory. I hadn’t gone as far in my thinking as Kong regarding the milk, but he hit the nail on the head with this statement: Kong thinks that the film might be suggesting that commercialism feeds us the idea of hedonism and in turn that will manifest itself as violence in some people.

This is exactly what I was thinking regarding the overabundance of pornographic art.

I saw a contrast between the “cat lady” at the Health Farm, who viewed the images as priceless works of art, and Alex, who viewed them as “naughty, naughty, naughty,” and inspiration for the “ol’ in-out, in-out.” This contrast, to me, symbolized the contrast between maturity and immaturity. When the drunk tramp gets beaten he says, “It's a stinking world because it lets the young get onto the old, like you done. Oh...it's no world for an old man any longer.” When Kong says, “...manifest itself as violence in some people,” I believe the “some people” being referred to are the immature youth who are influenced by the commercialism. The same argument is made today with violent music, movies, TV, and video games. A lot of adults can see the artistic value of such entertainment, as did the “cat lady,” but many fear the effect on the influential minds of the youth, who may become obsessed with the violence portrayed in those forms of media.

Yes, I believe the milk is very symbolic, and Kong is correct about milk being an unnecessary commercial product consumed only for pleasure, but I think we can take it a step further and say that Alex and his “droogs” have not yet been weaned from society. They are drinking from coin operated machines that dispense directly from the statue’s nipple, as if they were drinking straight from their mother’s breast. They are still children, and as we see later in the film, society/politicians are the “Mum and Da” of these youth. Alex gets weaned when he’s hit over the head with the bottle. Of course, this is all coming out of my butt, but it sounds interesting, doesn’t it?

The fourth question (yes, remember there were four questions?) was fairly simple, I think:

I believe the message being delivered is that human nature is individualized and cannot be reformed. To reform it would be to take away a person’s right to choose between good and evil. Alex’s nature is inherently evil. No matter what extremes are made to reform him, it is torture for him to go against his nature. This same theme is addressed in Steinbeck’s novel East of Eden, which Elia Kazan directed brilliantly with James Dean as the son worried that he is destined to be evil without a choice in the matter because his mother was evil.

Anyhoo, like Kong said, there are so many other things about this film to address. I hope someone else can give us another perspective.

Great post Mark.

A little more info on the title:

Anthony Burgess - from the preface of the novel A Clockwork Orange

I'm leaving this morning until Saturday. I hope Austruck, Beale the Rippe, Nebbit, and LordSlaytan had a chance to watch this film. I'd love to come back on Saturday to see their comments, as well (wink-wink, nudge-nudge)

WoW!!! Great post Mark!

First, some things I liked about the movie, and what I felt while watching it.

This is the second time I've seen the film, and I liked it twice as much this time.

The sadist in me enjoyed the first portion of the movie. (I feel bad for saying that.....)

Alex was a wonderful villian. It was great to see what was going on in his mind, and how it contrasted with what the other characters believed he was thinking. He also remains in some parts strangely sympathetic. Great performance.

I loved the closing line.

The movie is a masterpiece.

But you know all of that.

Now some interesting things in the movie. (Some of these things are not original thoughts by myself, merely observations I picked up elsewhere a while back that I've had time to contemplate. Also, most of these aren't symbolic questions/observations, just interesting dynamics I noticed within the movie)

1. Of all of the things Alex enjoys, the only non-violent one is Music.

The State, in an attempt to cure Alex, accidentally takes away the one non-violent thing he enjoys.

2. There are basically three men who try to cure Alex.

The first is the prison chaplain. He tries to cure Alex through his soul, using the Bible. He believes he is succeeding, but he is decieved as Alexs only interest in the Bible is its violent stories.

The second is the Warden. He tries to cure Alex through the body, as his main concern is the well-being of society. He doesn't fall for Alex faking reform, and believes the only true reform can come with through the harshness of prison. He too fails. (Whether he would've succeeded had Alex served his entire term in prison is not to be seen, although I doubt it would've worked).

The third is the Minister. Unlike the chaplain, he doesn't care about Alex's soul. Unlike the Warden, he doesn't really care about the safety of society. His only concern is the success of his program, and the popularity of the government. He tries to cure Alex through his mind. He modifies Alex so he cannot perform violent or sexually deviant acts. He too fails though, as he doesn't cure Alex, merely makes so he is physically incapable of his prior actions. Alex still wishes to perform them.

All three men fail. It appears that Alex can't be reformed.


3. The writer is an interesting parallel to the Minister.

The Minister uses Alex way to further the Ludovico treatment. Alex is used without regard to his health or safety.

The writer is from an opposing party, and, with the help of some of his friends, tries to use Alex as weapon against the Ludovico treatment, and they too use him without regard to his health (in fact, they drive him to attempted suicide).


I have a few more things, but I'll give someone else a chance to post first.

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True, but there is a rather large distinction as well.

The Minister is rather apathetic about Alex, but the writer hates Alex and is seeking vengeance. Sure, he uses Alex to damage the image of the Ludavico treatment, but he has just as much interest in avenging the death of his wife.

Exactly (although he gains the interest as a secondary thing to his political interests). That is the interesting parallel of the two characters. There actions are the same while different, their drives both come from some usage of the Ludavico treatment, but also come from personal interest.

Sorry. I wasn't really all that clear earlier.

I love this movie and I have it in my collection. It was banned here in Australia for 20yrs. I was able to get a copy from america when I was there in the 90's, as it was a different system I couldn't lend it to people, so we had video nights with people who wanted to see it again, also a lot who had never seen it, we had some great nights with lots of discussion.

I went to a special premier when it first came out, it was a very glamourous night. I was going out with a guy who worked at a TV studio thats how I was invited.

I was totally blown out by it, it was something new and exciting at the time. It created a lot of discussion in-the foyer of the theater, ranging from stunning to terrible.

The costumes and sets were fabulous, love the penis sculpture.

The aversion therapy was for me very interesting to me at the time. I had just started in Psychiatry and this was the latest thing people were trying to cure????? homosexuality Apparently there was an eye Dr on hand during these scenes to check on Malcolm's eyes, so no damage occurred during filming.

The acting was superb, I had never seen Malcolm Mc D before this, and thought at the time, who is this guy? as He was made for the part. The parents, where did they come from, another planet, great characters and acting.

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A Clockwork Orange

Welly, welly, welly, well hello O Brothers and Sisters, it’s your faithful narrator here to inform you of my opinions of a movie known as A Clockwork Orange. It is hereby proclaimed by me, that this film is of utmost importance if you ever are to deem yourself a serious filmgoer, and to ignore this summons by me, will only bring on some of the old ultraviolence onto your eggiwegy head.

It has been mentioned by other brothers and sisters of this forum that there are deeper truths within this film if you only take a deeper look. A little bit of the old in-out, in-out, of the brain, one might say. I might be inclined to agree, but first I need to drink my drencrom to get me in the mood. There! Much better!

This narrator’s input on deeper meanings will tend to go towards the political aspects of the film. I see a society that is plagued by terrorists. Oh, I know, they aren’t the terrorists that we’re used to today in our own place in time, but that’s still what they are. Within that society are frightened people that want to be able to walk to the corner market, or to sit at home, without fear of ultraviolence in any of its forms. What will a society do if they are terrorized enough? Will they give up their freedoms? Will they give up the terrorists freedoms? Will they clamor to the government to fix this problem by any means necessary? In A Clockwork Orange, they decide to allow brain-washing of prisoners, also known as the Ludovico Technique. Are we, as a modern society, that far away from possibly accepting this as an alternative? What if it doesn’t work? Will we then blame the government that we loved when it did work, and demand a new government with new ideas to take its place? Of course not! Right? We’re not fickle, are we? Of course not! Appy-polly-loggies, I’ve gone on a bit of a tangent. Please forgive O Brothers and Sisters.

I, again your most trusted and faithful narrator, believe that this film shows the most basic instincts of man. This is a tale of men and what they can, and will do, when left to their own devices. A bit of the old ultraviolence is in all of us men. Sometimes it is whipped into submission by societal standards and fear of prosecutorial punishment, but deep down, we are all a little bit of Alex. Just think if someday down the road, there is a catastrophic change in the world. A new day where there is only a minute fraction of the population at large. What will be the most valuable commodity to us at that point? Why the fuzzy of the she-devil, all right! We would fight and kill and rape and kill and nothing need to ever change. Of course it’s easy to say to ones self, “Not me, I’m too civilized” but you know, deep down, in your own muddled mind that it just might be the truth. Say, I know, anyone reading this would tend to be the protector of a worthwhile human being that just happens to be a woman, but you’d certainly kill to keep her. What if she just happens to want to be your friend and that’s all? Well? Naughty, naughty, naughty! You filthy old soomka! I knew it! We’re all a little bit of Alex. Deny it all you want, because there’s absolutely no way to prove it otherwise since we still have this society and that irritable law to get in our way. Kubrick shows us that the deeper character of man cannot be changed. It’s the absolute truth. Man has been this way since the beginning, and the more you try to change it by slow training and, dare I say it, brain-washing, the more he will rebel. We’re all murderers and rapists. We are men. You don’t have to do the deed to have it in you. It’s there anyway.

There is something else that came to mind while viewing A Clockwork Orange, and that is that the society that Alex lives in is only slightly better than he is. The politicians, the police, and the Droogs are not much better than the other, and they all prove that they can, and often will, get their own way by any means necessary. Is that all that different from the world we live in now? Why are there conspiracy theorists if there was nothing to be afraid of? Nobody trusts anybody anymore, and with good reason. Peoples in positions of power have always been corrupt. From the church, to the state, it’s all been shown in front of our impressionable eyes. Yet, they still want to control us by placing standards that nearly none of them can meet themselves. That’s part of what makes Alex who he is, an anti-social, anti-government, anti-dentite…why he’s just an anti-man. I feel that within me as well. That frustration that I need to live up to expectations that most of my brother’s fail to adhere to unless asked. I see all the time people who have demanded respect through painstaking propaganda and absolute lies only to be unmasked later on national news broadcasts with corporate sponsorship who pays for their lawyers who proclaim they’re innocence in submissive tones. O Brothers and Sisters, are we blinded so much as to not see the greasy spokes of the larger wheel?

There is a beauty in violence that we all can appreciate as men. Denial of this is normal, and often is the case. Yet, we call martial arts on the silver screen choreographed, and call our boxers graceful at times. It seemed that Kubrick appreciated this aspect of violence, hence his choices in music during the more ultraviloent scenes. This is another thing that is inherent to the male side of the species as well. I can’t begin to tell you how many men have told me that there favorite scene is of Alex crooning Singin’ in the Rain while kicking and slapping away at the unfortunates at his mercy. It is a terrible scene given a light heartedness that should only repulse a viewer, yet it only conjures positive emotions in most men. Yet again I grow weary with another tangent. I’m so sorry O Brothers and Sisters. After reading what I’ve written so far, I feel I should warn the ladies to put all of us on an island somewhere with no hope of escape just so we can all choke on our own carbon. It would be a fitting end. Of course, I wouldn’t need to be there, because…I’m cured!

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"Today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

Thank Dog you are cured, I was worried for a while there

You're a tad bit late, my droog brother, but you commenting is real horror show.

Ah, my Brother...'tis never too late to comment on a masterpiece, better than starting a new thread. You like my bit of satire? I hope you do, otherwise...

....otherwise a bit of the ultraviolence?

Brian, did you just recently view this again?

Yeah, I watched it last night. I found the Orange threads, but they were slight compared to this one, so here it was placed.

I forgot to mention this in my original post. Has anyone realised that the strong man who was the helper for the invalid is none other than David Prowse (aka Darth Vader)?

Really

Man, you're a sarcastic she-devil sometimes.