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I CAN back up everything I say but I'm not gonna spend my life collecting clippings and stuff.
With all due respect, that's the exact same thing that you'd say if you were trying to back out of your claims. You can't go on calling someone the Anti-Christ with pure rhetoric, man, even if it IS meant as a joke. I'm sure Bush has made some mistakes...my contention is that "worst President in U.S. History" is, to put it bluntly, one of the most ridiculous things I can recall ever hearing in my entire life. Seriously.


I won't say that anymore cuz I see it freaks you out.
I don't get "freaked out" over someone's wacky opinion.


What is it that you don't understand about my post?
I don't believe I said I didn't understand it.


You say it's happened before. Tell me when, and while your at it look up what all they passed. Was the majority of the stuff what the ruling party wanted? I don't know the answer but I'd bet it was. I can't believe anyone is naive enough to believe that isn't going to happen.
First off, I never said it means the Republicans won't be able to pass a lot of things. I said that it's happened before the world was not dragged through the Gates of Hell.

Secondly, it happened under Reagan. I believe that was shortly before a massive economic boom in the mid to late 80s, though don't quote me on that just yet. Regardless, the Republicans had total control and (gasp!), Armageddon was nowhere to be found.


Is it taking your freedom away that you can't vote yet?
Uh, I can vote.


I don't know if mental patients, like really crazy ones are allowed to vote but if they can't what would be the difference? Diminished mental capacity is just that.
The difference is that diminished mental capacity and age are not married to each other. Many people can remain quite sharp into their 80s or 90s, whereas many people can go nuts in their 60s or 70s. If they're going to put restrictions up, they shouldn't be on age.


And I have a question, what is it that you all are so happy about? What has Bushlite done that made you love him? Because he attacked Osama? Any president would have done that. Please name your reasons. I'm completely baffled.
A few things:

1 - I'm happy because I think the Republican ideology usually mops the floor with the Democratic ideology.

2 - Dubya has done a few things I'm proud of, and I'd be glad to elaborate, but frankly, if you refuse to tell me why you hate him, why would you expect me to tell you why I "love him"?

3 - I could hate Dubya and still be happy about this victory. The two are not inherently linked.



I'm not a member of the majority, who is in favor with President Bush for the following reasons:

1. The President has not kept his promise for fundamental reform of the way the federal government assesses and collects taxes. Instead of a serious and empowering reform of a tax system that is manipulative and servile, we got an insignificant adjustment of the rate structure.

2. Instead of the promised attempt to rein in government domination of education, we have an education bill that ramps-up federal funding, increases federal control, and was cooperatively stripped of all elements of support for genuine school choice and local control.

3. For aggressively defending racial preferences before the Supreme Court, the administration has directly betrayed those of its supporters who naively trusted it to pursue the unifying goal of a color blind nation.

4. The, "We can't save the world – it would cost too much." mentality, proven by their withdrawl from the Kyoto Protocol against global warming caused by greenhouse gases.

5. His seeming disregard for the environment by rolling back campaign promises on clean air, reversing Clinton administration initiatives on drinking water, and promoting new oil exploration in previously protected regions.

6. Although I am all for kicking Saddam's @ss, I have not been happy with the way the President has, at times, chosen to politically deal with the United Nations and its representatives. Spitting in the eye of your allies make poor bedfellows. Worldwide opinion of the United States has decreased with Bush in the chair, not that that's saying much. We were a joke during Clinton's second term, now we're a threat.

As far as the Republicans retaining control? Sae la vie, I'm not a big fan of either major party.

BTW Yoda, the last time the Republicans had this much control was back in 1980, when President Reagan was elected to his first term of office.
__________________
"Today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."



Originally posted by Sunfrogolin
Obviously Bushlite isn't the anti-christ. That's just something I like saying, sorry if you take it litterally. I'm not a religous fanatic, I just like calling him the anti-christ. Evil may not be a good word either because it implies malicious intent. He's just stupid and doesn't know what he's doing. I won't say that anymore cuz I see it freaks you out.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by LordSlaytan
BTW Yoda, the last time the Republicans had this much control was back in 1980, when President Reagan was elected to his first term of office.
Not entirely true. Not since the time of Eisenhower has the Republicans owned the White House, the Senate AND the House of Representatives at the same time. In other words, it hasn't happened in 50 years.



I said that it's happened before the world was not dragged through the Gates of Hell.
Well there you go. Bushlite ain't no Eisenhower that's for sure. The difference between then and now is Bushlite sucks.

The difference is that diminished mental capacity and age are not married to each other. Many people can remain quite sharp into their 80s or 90s, whereas many people can go nuts in their 60s or 70s. If they're going to put restrictions up, they shouldn't be on age.
I know lots of teenagers that are sharp, they can't vote either. I could post something funny here but I don't want to change the subject. I like what LordSlaytan said.

Dubya has done a few things I'm proud of, and I'd be glad to elaborate, but frankly, if you refuse to tell me why you hate him, why would you expect me to tell you why I "love him"?
Good dodge, nice question avoidance. The fact is he hasn't done anything good. Last night when I was watching the news they said the republicans won so many seats because Bushlite went around campaigning for everyone and since he is a popular wartime President it helped out. I think that's true, but here's what really happened. Bushlite took office, did a bunch of stuff I "can't back up" but is all true. (See paragraph one of the first post on this page) then 9/11 happened. He is popular now because of the Osama war, the republicans get elected and Bushlite goes back to doing stupid things, except the democrats can't talk him out of it anymore. On his "To Do" list is the tax reform LordSlayton talked about in point 1. This is a horrible idea. We have other things we should use that money on. As it is things are already sucking and the tax rebate he gave everyone made things worse. The war is putting us in debt, the national debt is skyrocketing and his new lower tax thing will make sure we can't get out of debt. The balanced budget thing will force us to cut many programs to stay balanced because we won't have money for everything, Lord know we aren't going to cut military spending. That's ok tho because he's going to f up the social security program so we won't need money for that. (see the transcript of last night's ABC News)

More things that tick me off about the lower taxes.
1. An extra $300 a year won't stimulate my economy, the real people who will benefit are the large companies who pay lots of taxes. Freakin' trickle down theory again.

2. After he lowers taxes and f's things up no one will be able to fix it. Who can say vote for me I want to raise taxes again and get elected?

More things that T me off in general.
See LordSlayton's points 4. & 5.

Before you say something nice about Trickle Down, that economic boom was cause by tv. Specifically Miami Vice. That was when kids all had to have exspensive clothes to be cool and why $150 sneakers, cell phones and bottled water are popular today. The materialistic '80 were mainly produced by tv.



The fact is he hasn't done anything good.
That statement would be just fine...except that you probably mean it literally, in which case I can't do anything but chuckle at it. You're right; Dubya's out to sabotage the country. He's evil. He wants to destory everyone who does not agree with him and beat poor people with a stick. He wants to burn your house to the ground and p*ss on the ashes!

Now THAT's sarcasm.


Good dodge, nice question avoidance.
That is the most hypocritical thing you could've said. Don't you remember your response when I asked you for the method to your madness? Let me refresh your memory:

"I CAN back up everything I say but I'm not gonna spend my life collecting clippings and stuff."

I suppose you hold yourself to a lower standard, eh? Pratice what you preach.


Bushlite took office, did a bunch of stuff I "can't back up" but is all true.
Uh, you're asking me to believe something is true when you won't even tell me what it is?



If you've got a gripe, spit it out. "He's stupid" and "he did a bunch of stupid stuff" is NOT valid criticism, and you know it.


An extra $300 a year won't stimulate my economy, the real people who will benefit are the large companies who pay lots of taxes. Freakin' trickle down theory again.
You act as there's a switch on the economy marked "Stimulated" or "Unstimulated." Every little bit helps. The more people have control of their own money, the better.


After he lowers taxes and f's things up no one will be able to fix it. Who can say vote for me I want to raise taxes again and get elected?
Maybe there's a reason no one will elect someone who wants to raise taxes: it's usually a bad friggin' idea!

Ya' know, with all the time you've spent talking about how you CAN back up what you say, you could've actually done so. Frankly, your claim that he is the "worst President in U.S. History" is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard in years.

Let me be blunt: can you even NAME all 43 U.S. Presidents, let alone give assessments of all their administrations? IF not, then you're talking out of the wrong orifice.



Originally posted by Yoda
If you've got a gripe, spit it out. "He's stupid" and "he did a bunch of stupid stuff" is NOT valid criticism, and you know it.
That reminds me of something that really annoyes me; people who critique movies with the statement of, "...and this movie is full of plot holes...". At the beginning of my stay here at the asylum, the same person said that about Minority Report and Road to Perdition without making any statement of how the directors, writers, etc, had done that. Damn, that really burns me up, and when I called him on it, I never got a reply.

Originally posted by Piddzilla
Rarely have I seen so much crap piled up in one single topic.....



Originally posted by Piddzilla


Not entirely true. Not since the time of Eisenhower has the Republicans owned the White House, the Senate AND the House of Representatives at the same time. In other words, it hasn't happened in 50 years.
82ND CONGRESS
(1951–1953)
Senate Republicans: 47 (gain of 5); Democrats: 49
Republican Minority Leader: Kenneth S. Wherry
Republican Policy Committee Chairman: Robert Taft
Kenneth Wherry dies (November 29, 1951); Styles Bridges elected Minority Leader
Robert Taft loses the Republican presidential nomination to General Dwight Eisenhower
Dwight Eisenhower elected President, Republicans win majorities in Senate and House, 1952

96TH CONGRESS
(1979–1981)
Senate Republicans: 41 (gain of 3); Democrats: 59
Republican Minority Leader: Howard Baker
Republican Policy Committee
Chairman: John Tower
Ronald Reagan elected president,
1980
Republicans win majority in the
Senate; Democrats retain
majority in House, 1980

I guess I should have been more explicit. The last time Rebublicans had remotely this much power was back in 1980.

I'm sorry.



I'm not old, you're just 12.
Why did this happen? LOWEST VOTER TURN-OUT IN YEARS. Nobody realizes how actually important the mid term elections are, and they don't vote. So only around 30% of the public actually voted this time, and we all have to put up with their bad choices, or revel in their good choices, depending on your political views...

Me, we all know how much I LOOOOVE Bush: the inferior sequel, so lets just say I am disgusted by the whole thing. My Sociology professor in school pointed out that if you think about it, elections are held on a weekday morning, when a good majority of the Working and Middle Classes are at work, effectively cutting them out of the voting process, especially now, in our crappy economy, when people have to work multiple jobs just to stay above water. So the upper-classes vote in droves and they vote.....Republican! Republicans cut taxes for the top 1%, hand out welfare for big corporations, and keep the defense contractors rolling in the dough by increasing millitary spending. (In all fairness, some Dems do this too. The two parties are so much alike, they might as well move in together...) Let's face it, the G.O.P. and the Dems both don't want the lower classes voting! Imagine what could be accomplished if they DID?!?

Honestly, I'm going to sit back and see what happens. I do not think anything good will come of this, and our economy will go ever further down the crapper as the powers that be focus more on Iraq than their own people, but we'll see. I pray I'm wrong.
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That simply isn't true. The Republicans have become the party of the middle-class. Almost all of Hollywood is filthy rich...and they're almost all Liberal, too.

Not only that, but let's not forget that most people are middle or lower class. Even if every single upper-class citizen voted Republican, it wouldn't be enough to put them in office without a significant number of votes elsewhere.

As for the "tax cut for the wealthy" -- that's as ridiculous as it ever was. The cuts being proposed are almost all percentage-based, if memory serves. And when you cut everyone's takes, the people who PUT IN MORE also GET BACK MORE.



I don't even see much of a difference between the two parties any more. In my states, the Rpublican candidate was the lesser of two evils. The Republican party taking major control in Washington and around the U.S. is a symptom of a greater problem. While it is true that some Democrats truely are liberal, the majority of them simply are not.

Besides that, I think the age group neglected most in this thread are senior citizens, who hold a great deal of voting power, and almost always tend to lean toward the conservative side.

There are rough times ahead. I have only known good times in my life. I will know bad. But it's life.

I think Clinton did what he could, but by the end of his service even he had started to lose control. Bush took over an already deeply wounded economy, and his refund did nothing.



I will leave you with this...


"Is our children learning?"
__________________
You're not hopeless...



I'm not old, you're just 12.
I agree 100% with Mr. the Kid. In two years, when the economy has turned to sh*t, much like it did in Bush seniors term, we will vote our "President" out of office and hopefully make a better choice. The Republicans will do nothing to stop the recession and will pay for it, I hope. Things are going to get worse before they get better.



Originally posted by Monkeypunch
I agree 100% with Mr. the Kid. In two years, when the economy has turned to sh*t, much like it did in Bush seniors term, we will vote our "President" out of office and hopefully make a better choice. The Republicans will do nothing to stop the recession and will pay for it, I hope. Things are going to get worse before they get better.
You do know that the GDP has risen, basically, under Dubya, right?



I'm not old, you're just 12.
Back in their heyday, The Japanese didn't consider the economy good unless it was good for all sections of society, not just the top however-many percent. If the economy is so good, then why are so many people out of work?



Originally posted by Monkeypunch
Back in their heyday, The Japanese didn't consider the economy good unless it was good for all sections of society, not just the top however-many percent.
The economy can never be up in all areas. The service industry goes up when the manufacturing industry goes down in comparison. There's no way to avoid that sort of thing. It's technically impossible.


Originally posted by Monkeypunch
If the economy is so good, then why are so many people out of work?
Average unemployment rate over the last 30 years: 6.3 percent.
Current unemployment rate: 5.7 percent.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Monkeypunch
Why did this happen? LOWEST VOTER TURN-OUT IN YEARS. Nobody realizes how actually important the mid term elections are, and they don't vote. So only around 30% of the public actually voted this time, and we all have to put up with their bad choices, or revel in their good choices, depending on your political views...

Me, we all know how much I LOOOOVE Bush: the inferior sequel, so lets just say I am disgusted by the whole thing. My Sociology professor in school pointed out that if you think about it, elections are held on a weekday morning, when a good majority of the Working and Middle Classes are at work, effectively cutting them out of the voting process, especially now, in our crappy economy, when people have to work multiple jobs just to stay above water. So the upper-classes vote in droves and they vote.....Republican! Republicans cut taxes for the top 1%, hand out welfare for big corporations, and keep the defense contractors rolling in the dough by increasing millitary spending. (In all fairness, some Dems do this too. The two parties are so much alike, they might as well move in together...) Let's face it, the G.O.P. and the Dems both don't want the lower classes voting! Imagine what could be accomplished if they DID?!?

Honestly, I'm going to sit back and see what happens. I do not think anything good will come of this, and our economy will go ever further down the crapper as the powers that be focus more on Iraq than their own people, but we'll see. I pray I'm wrong.
The best post in this topic so far! Go, Monkeypunch!



Originally posted by Piddzilla
The best post in this topic so far! Go, Monkeypunch!
So, you're agreeing with the ridiculous "tax cut for the wealthy" claim, and the assertion that the economy is "in the crapper" even those the primary measure for economic growth has been going up over Dubya?



I already addressed the voter turnout issue...it really holds no weight. Neither side has a monopoly of the upper-class, and even if they did, there's no way in hell that would carry them to victory. Republicans are primarily middle-class these days.



Here are some facts on your great Satan:

Some documentation since you insist.

Education:

President Bush promised to make educating every child his top domestic priority and reform a system that has failed the most needy students in our nation's classrooms. He proposed a comprehensive, bipartisan plan to improve overall student performance and close the achievement gap between rich and poor students in America's more than 89,599 public schools. The President’s No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 was passed with an overwhelming majority.

On January 8, 2002, the President signed into law this landmark legislation that promotes educational excellence for America's public school children.
The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 Ushers in Sweeping Reforms Based Upon the President's Priorities for America's Schools:

· Stronger Accountability for Results.
· Greater Flexibility and Local Control.
· Expanded Options and Choice for Parents.
· Emphasis on Teaching Methods that Work.
· Resources to Support the Reforms.

Economic Security:

Permanent Tax Relief. The tax cuts are critical to our future economic growth and Washington should not take them away. Congress needs to make these cuts permanent. The tax cuts will create 800,000 more jobs this year and help Americans save and invest by:
· Cutting taxes for all taxpayers in all tax rates;
· Doubling the child tax credit to $1,000 to help parents with the high costs of raising children;
· Expanding the earned income credit and making the child credit refundable to put money in the hands of millions of low-income families with children;
· Helping Americans save more for their retirement by raising IRA and 401(k) contribution limits;
· Helping families save for their children’s education;
· Repealing the death tax;
· Providing relief from the marriage penalty; and
· Accelerating depreciation so businesses can invest more and hire more.

Taxes in detail, facts and myths:

The economy is stronger as a result of President Bush’s tax cut:
· The tax cut came at just the right time to help a slowing economy. The tax cut helped shorten the duration and impact of the recession.
· The tax cut has put the nation on the path to long-term recovery.
· Economic growth has returned: 6.1% in the first quarter of 2002 compared to 1.2% in 2001.
· Disposable income was at 13.9% for the first quarter, up from -8.1% from the last quarter of 2001.
· Residential investment is growing faster right now than it has in almost six years: the fastest quarterly gain, 14.6% in the 1st quarter.
· Home sales and the real estate market are historically strong.


Some give and take:
SHOTS:
AL GORE:
“The problem is not that Mr. Bush and Dick Cheney picked the wrong advisers or misunderstood the technical arguments, but that their economic purpose was and is ideological: to provide $1.6 trillion in tax giveaways for the few while pretending they were for the many, and manipulating the numbers to make it appear that the budget surplus would be preserved.” (Al Gore Op-Ed, “Broken Promises And Political Deception,” The New York Times, August 4, 2002)
Giveaways Mr. Gore? Whose money is it anyways?

Hillary:
: “The Administration has a failed economic policy. Their answer to everything are tax cuts. . . . I don’t see any alternative [other than to repeal or postpone the tax cut].” (NBC’s “Meet The Press,” September 15, 2002)

Tom Daschle:
“‘This is going to blow a hole in the fiscal responsibility of this country, the likes of which we haven’t seen in our lifetimes,’ said Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D.” (Alan Fram, “GOP Pushes Budget Through House,” The Associated Press, May 10, 2001)

ANSWERS:

The President’s Tax Cut Boosted The Economy And Created Jobs. The President proposed and signed tax relief that boosted our economy, created jobs, and put money in people’s pockets when they needed it most. The President also signed an economic stimulus bill giving short-term help to displaced workers and long-term stimulus to create more jobs across America. (“A Record Of Accomplishment For The American People,” The White House, August 3, 2002)

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan Believes President Bush’s Tax Cut Would Do “Noticeable Good.” “And should current economic weakness spread beyond what now appears likely, having a tax cut in place may, in fact, do noticeable good.” (Alan Greenspan, Testimony Before The Senate Committee On The Budget, January 25, 2001)

The Congressional Budget Office Reported That The Past Economic Recession, Not The Tax Cut, Put The Federal Budget Back In Deficit. The CBO reported on August 13, 2002 that 80% of the change in revenue projections for FY 2002 was not due to the tax cut but economic and technical changes. CBO’s numbers also show that if there never had been a tax cut, the budget would still be in deficit today. (Congressional Budget Office, “Budget And Economic Update,” August 2002)

Council Of Economic Advisers Chairman Glenn Hubbard Argued That Repealing The President’s Tax Cut Would Hurt Future Economic Growth. “If we rescinded the President’s tax cut, we would probably hurt economic growth by about 2/10 of a percentage point over the foreseeable future. That’s $1,000 for every man, woman and child in the country over a decade.” (CBS’ “Face The Nation,” August 18, 2002)

Why, senator Feinstein... is this support for the tax policies?

Senator Feinstein Supports The President’s Tax Cut. “‘I think it’s good policy to let people keep more of their money.’ And [Senator Diane] Feinstein disputes the notion that the tax cut has had a deleterious effect on the economy. ‘Over $1 trillion of that tax cut has not yet gone into effect,’ she noted. ‘I don’t think it worsens the recession at all.’ As to Daschle’s suggestion, which he would not state directly, that the Bush tax cuts ought to be delayed or reduced, if not repealed altogether, Feinstein strongly disagreed. ‘My view is we ought to stay the course,’ she said. ‘Twenty percent of the Democratic Senate caucus voted for the tax cut.’” (Editorial, “Recession Rhetoric,” Copley News Service, January 7, 2002)

And on and on:
Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan Credited Republican Tax Relief For Spurring Increases In Household Spending. “Household spending was boosted by ongoing increases in incomes, which in turn were spurred by strong advances in productivity as well as by legislated tax reductions and, in recent months, by extended unemployment insurance benefits.” (Alan Greenspan, Senate Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs Committee Hearing, July 16, 2002)

President Bush’s Tax Cut Provides Relief For Married Couples And Parents Of Young Children. “The tax cut, the largest approved by Congress in two decades, provides for millions of refund checks of up to $600 apiece to be mailed to Americans this summer, and grants reductions in most tax rates, tax relief for married couples and parents of young children. . .” (Glen Kessler and Juliet Eilperin, “Congress Passes $1.35 Trillion Tax Cut,” The Washington Post, May 27, 2001)

The Media Recognized President Bush’s Tax-Relief Package As The Largest In Two Decades. “The truth is that President Bush . . . assembled a bipartisan coalition in Congress during his first four months in office. Passage by both the House and Senate of his landmark $1.3 trillion tax cut, the first major tax relief in two decades, demonstrated Bush’s capacity to forge consensus on both sides of the aisle. This was a historic achievement, considering that Republicans held only a slim majority in the House and had only tenuous control in a Senate split 50-50.” (Editorial, “Senate Must Serve Common Interests,” The State Journal-Register [Springfield, IL], May 28, 2001)

The point of the above is that the tax cuts were not responsible for the current economic woes...if not for them, the economic situation would be exceedingly worse.

All of the above are examples of good things that Bush has done.

The war on Terror and the toppling of Al Queda was a good thing. It removed a threat to world peace.

If war becomes necessary in Iraq I will support it as it's far worse to imagine Saddam with nukes. BTW, would you like for me to list Mr. Hussein's evils? His kill rate of his own people is far greater than a strike against him would likely cause.

I have far, far more support but this is too long already... I'll throw in more later.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Yoda

So, you're agreeing with the ridiculous "tax cut for the wealthy" claim, and the assertion that the economy is "in the crapper" even those the primary measure for economic growth has been going up over Dubya?



I already addressed the voter turnout issue...it really holds no weight. Neither side has a monopoly of the upper-class, and even if they did, there's no way in hell that would carry them to victory. Republicans are primarily middle-class these days.
Yes, I do agree with him. I also agree with him about the totally weird fact that the voting date was on a week day. That's absurd! Furthermore, I agree with him that there is very little difference between the two available parties. And the fact that only 30% of the voters actually do vote suggests that perhaps a lot of the americans don't feel that there is anyone that really represents them. It doesn't matter who they vote for because it doesn't make a difference in their lives anyway. The absence of a real leftwing alternative is rediculously obvious. I also think it's very odd how the person, not the politics of that person or its party, seems to be the most important thing in american elections. So what if Bush is a lousy speaker and looks like an ape!? So what if Clinton lies on tv about being faithful to his wife!? Focus on the real politics and mind your own #!@¤ing business!!!

I agree on the fact that it's the middle class who's the key to the victory in the elections because that's the biggest group. But I wouldn't be too surprised if the majority of the upper class (it's not only a matter of how much money you have) votes republican. I'm sure there's statistics on that available...

I didn't feel that I wanted to take part in this discussion since I'm not even american. I thought I'd stick to cheering on "my team". But since Yoda "invited" me by addressing me in his post I thought "What the heck!!"....