The Identity of God

Voltaire in ''The ignorant philosopher'' (Which I'm reading right now) defends a particular sort of deism in which he admits the existence, the intelligence, the eternity of god (also that he created us), but that even if he can prove it (I don't think he can, but I can see the arguments) he's still ignorant on his essence.

There's this line « Il est donc une puissance unique, éternelle, à qui tout est lié et de qui tout dépend, mais dont la nature m'est incompréhensible » which means that he's a unique eternal power, but that I can't understand his nature.

Further he says « Déjà convaincu que ne connaissant pas ce que je suis, je ne puis connaître ce qu'est mon auteur » which means How can I know who is my creator if I don't even know who I am?

This second argument is still true today in regard to science, we don't know what is a human being, how we think, etc. Sure it evolves, we know things, but, for instance, consciousness is still a big mystery.

So my question goes to religious people (I know there are some here) how can you, without referring to faith, know the identity of god? Because, I think and correct me if I'm wrong, living a particular religion implies having some knowledge of it's essence because each religion (at least christianity which is the one I think most people follow here) give a particular moral code, some particular things to do in accordance to god's will. And knowing god's will implies knowing god, or at least partially knowing him.

And the question is: Lets say we assume that there are good arguments for the existence of an omnipotent being (which I don't agree with, but lets assume so), what kind of proof, or reason do you have to follow a particular religion, which implies a particular identity to god?

I hope it'll bring a good discussion

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I do not speak english perfectly so expect some mistakes here and there in my messages

I can feel the bitterness from here

I'm an atheist, and yes I went through that "hurr durr religious people are so dumb they're not wise like me" phase in my late teens and early twenties but I grew out of it, as I hope most atheists do. I've come to appreciate the benefits of religious belief, as well as their rich cultural history and art/beauty they have produced. I would even go as far as to say I envy people who can believe in a higher power, but it simply isn't in my nature.

I would implore you not to assume that every atheist is some smug anti-theist who thinks he or she is better than everyone else. Atheism is not a dogma, we come in all shapes and sizes. There is a very loud and obnoxious minority that won't shut up about how stupid religion is, but that's all they are.

Wasn't it Nietzsche who said I do not esteem the bowels of the inscrutable

I don't disagree with your statement, I'm an atheist who doesn't care if someone else is a theist. (Actually where I live it's not really a problem, I don't really know a religious person haha).

However, the question is not if it's in your nature or not to be a theist or not, but if it's true that god exists. And if so, then what is his identity. I assume that all religious people have answer to this second question, that was the point of the message I posted

And wasn't it Schopenhauer who said mankind absolutely needs an interpretation of life; and this, again, must be suited to popular comprehensionI plead ignorance

Your question is loaded PG, as I am sure you know. so as I start to formulate in my head how I will answer I can already feel myself pulling away because of fear that I will butcher it. Ultimately I decided to butcher it because I think it is important to engage with your question. As you quote in your OP, how can we know the essence of God, when we don't even comprehend our existence. Tough stuff, especially when you start to consider how different all of our experiences are. Where and how we grew up or were raised have an undeniable influence on us. Even if we decide to run the opposite way of our upbringing, it has had an influence.

When things started to become clear for me is when I started realizing that what I had learned about the nature of God was undeniably the best way for a human to live. The nature of the God I grew up learning about was a God of unconditional love and forgiveness through all things, no strings attached. What I see in every other religion or belief system is trying to achieve better living through works. Not only is it impossible to reach any kind of happiness with this way of thinking but it completely puts the emphasis on me. Believing that we can be better through works is selfish. Believing that how we become better is by loving others unconditionally is selfless.

Now to go any deeper than that will be getting into Christainity itself. I don't think that is your intention so I won't do that unless natural discourse leads us that way. I would think that your response would be along the lines of being able to love unconditionally without a belief in a higher being. My simple response is I don't think we are here by chance, I believe in God and to know his nature I have to know what makes us our best selfs, and my answer above explains that nature I believe.

To me what the philosopher in your OP is describing is agnosticism. The fact that we can never fully understand the full nature of God or easily come to terms with our existence doesn't negate our capacity to wrestle with those things and certainly can't make exploring that nature any less valuable.

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Letterboxd

I agree, Sean.

Yup, this entirely. I went through a very brief period of feeling like i was smarter than everyone else because i had discovered that god wasn't real. This period of my life is particularly embarrassing/shameful because i was brought up Catholic and the majority of my family was/still is Catholic: i had this cringey faux-edgey attitude of you guys are all really stupid and if you listen to me you'll realize why because i'm obviously the first person to question your beliefs and i have all the answers.

Thankfully i grew out of it and realized i was a moron for it, i'm still atheist but i definitely don't think i know anything more than anyone else, i just find it difficult to believe in a god. I actually went through a depressed state after i had bypassed my douchebag 'i'm above religion' state because i really wanted an afterlife to be true but personally can't believe that because of the way i'm wired. I've now just accepted stuff and i think beliefs whether religious or not are fine as long as they don't trample upon others livelihood.

Thirding Blix's message. Not against religion, but it's definitely not in my nature - I like those words, Blix - to believe in a god.

I feel similar being Agnostic.

Beyond all other "faiths" I actually know that my belief (that I don't know) is 100% true. And it's not just some ethereal inner knowing (of not knowing), but it is quite objective upon examination that I'm not just claiming to not know, but that I truly do not know.

Unlike any other faith I can prove that mine is correct. Go ahead, ask away - my "I don't know" will quantify with no uncertainty that my claim to not knowing is absolutely true.

See, all religions and even atheism make a claim - therefore, having no quantifiable facts one way or the other - they must all rely on a faith or a belief in something that either has not been proved or something that absolutely cannot be disproved.

Agnosticism claims nothing - therefore we have nothing to prove or disprove. And as far as not knowing - logic and human nature dictates that if one were to know something, they wouldn't claim not to know because we desire to be knowledgeable and seen by others as informed, educated, experienced, etc. Agnosticism is the most humble of non-faiths.

Breaking the words down to their roots, agnosticism doesn't even concern faith. It concerns knowledge. Atheism concerns faith, however, and simply means lack of a belief in a god or gods.

That's why I consider myself an atheist. Obviously I don't know if there is a god or not - I haven't had any reason to believe in one, either, and thus I lack a belief entirely.

Why did you quote me there and not say.. Blix who was the first one to make that comment?

Agnosticism is fine i'd just be lying if i said i was agnostic as i don't believe there is a god or anything after this life. I'm not claiming anything either, i'm stating that i don't believe in god.

You sound the least humble in this thread but i guess that was the joke. lol

I really wish I could be in the "unsure" category and just say maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't. But somewhere deep inside I know there is no God. Call it common sense, call it pessimism, call it whatever you like, but I just feel it down to my bones.

Quite frankly, it sucks. But I am who I am, and I can't pretend to be something I'm not. All I can do is keep on truckin'

Yeah. I'll just copy and paste this anytime people question my 'godless-ness'!

I have to disagree with some of the definitions of atheism here. It's not just a lack of a belief, but it's a belief that something does not exist.

Unfortunately, there is no way Atheism could ever be proved - you cannot prove the nonexistence of something (which is why negative existential claims bear no burden of proof). But certainly Atheism could be refuted simply with proof of existence.

Simply lacking belief, or not being sure, or not knowing which story is true (but that any one of them or combination of them may be true), or that "God" may exist, but matches no man-made description, or that maybe there just is no God all fall under Agnosticism.

Atheism is usually described as a type of certainty (similar to religion) while Agnosticism is an admission to a truth I believe most people would apply to themselves if they were really being honest, but won't admit to - that they simply don't know.

P.S. I'm very proud of my humility. I am the best there is at being self-deprecating. I excel beyond all others at admitting my lack of knowledge and diffidence. Knowing that you don't know things is probably the most intelligent realization anyone can come to, so I gladly flaunt my unpretentiousness! My ability to be as humble as I am pretty much makes me superior to everyone else.

| literally said "I state i don't believe in god" (i mean i typed those exact words), i don't believe god exists, not sure what you want from me here but i think me, Blix and Swan have made this clear already.

Not sure where you're getting your definitions Captain, but they aren't quite accurate.

The definition of "gnostic" is literally "relating to knowledge". Gnosticism and agnosticism aren't about belief, but knowledge. Theism and atheism are about belief/faith. You could essentially be an agnostic atheist (no way of knowing and lack belief), an gnostic atheist (there is a way of knowing and lack belief), an agnostic theist (no way of knowing and believe), or a gnostic theist (there is a way of knowing and believe).

Atheism, when broken down, is literally a- (not) theism (belief in a deity). So by definition, it simply means not believing.

So is there a difference in the statements - "I believe in God" and "I know God exists"?
Or; "I don't believe in God" and "I know that no such thing as God exists"?

Well, yes, faith and knowledge are very different.

I don't believe there is a god. Dunno, i'll say that as many ways as you want but i don't think it matters.