Depiction doesn't equal endorsement

But that's more to do with taste, debate climate, general tribalism and hypocrisy. I don't know. We may be talking past each other.

Trying to shout something down may be considered dirty tactics, including by myself, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it and "the other side" is free to shout back, point out the dirty tactics or oppose in other ways. In "healthy" societies this is usually considered interesting debate and the media will usually get called out for over exploiting conflict.

Not sure we disagree about this but I generally like heated debate as long as there's authentic basis for it and I think artists and their supporters should be able to defend their position or at least dismiss criticism they find unjustified.

Maybe it's a cultural thing that looks somewhat different depending on location. I don't live in the US, but can tell it's become a deeply split society in multiple ways, and as I imagine many are, I would probably be fed up too with everything turning into a back and forth shouting match.

I like the post you've wrote in this thread, so don't think this is directly about you. I'm just seguing my thoughts from something you said...this is offered as 'food for thought'. When viewpoints get really one sided with a vocal majority shouting down the lone dissenter it makes an exchange of ideas difficult. Which is sad as the best use of the internet would be to learn how and why other people view and relate to things. Instead the internet is often about looking for 'the nail that sticks up and hammering it down'. Try defending Gone With The Wind or Song of the South, and see how far one gets with that. I've done that and mostly what results is people trying to shout you down.

I wholeheartedly agree. IMO the upside to the internet in this case is that unlike for 30 years ago there's possibility for debate among common people in comment sections and social media, which might bring some balance and needed support in certain cases as opposed to the media having straight monopoly on "the truth".

I haven't seen those so can't comment but I assume it has something to do with what's considered politically correct then and now?

Yeah I think we agree. I was just jumping off from your post to preemptively address something that always comes up: the literalism where someone implies the only real "censorship" is codified in law. Law matters very much but ultimately in a free society, norms matter as much or more in most things.

There's also a very subtle and hard to define distinction between having a public back-and-forth about what's good or bad, reasonable or not, and trying to graduate criticism into something more tangible. That relates to the OP in the sense that you can personally not watch someone's films for various reasons, you can watch them and critique them, or you can specifically try to make it difficult for other people to watch them, and while all these things are technically fair game, I'd say there are important lines between them and we collectively benefit from not crossing them, or only crossing them for the least redeemable things.

I started responding to this and then extreme heat interfered. Which was helpful because I don’t think I have an entirely coherent take. You make a good point. I don’t think most of these are that morally grey, especially given the shifting cultural expectations. I don’t feel like characters committing murder is even looked down upon at this point as long as it’s self-defence, revenge or any ‘justifiable’ reason. We’re firmly in the ‘cheer for the protagonist who got revenge’ era. Which means that the meaning of ‘morally grey’ is shifting, too.

Tár is a good example and I really like the film and the ending (though I would argue we don’t really see Tár doing anything untoward, and the film can be (and has been) interpreted as a witch hunt against her). Deputy Dixon in Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri would be another good example, what with his being a racist and all (and being, you know, called ‘Dixon’ — talk about being on the nose) and still getting redemption in the end. Now that’s truly morally grey in our current cultural context, and the film caught flak for that.

Not that I particularly care about the morally grey characters getting redemption, but I think morally grey is a higher bar to clear than we assume nowadays. ‘Getting revenge’ on someone (Kill Bill, John Wick) doesn’t in and of itself make the character particularly nuanced imo. It’s lazy in a ‘tut-tut, revenge is bad’ way. A sassy protagonist who snaps at her elderly mother and secretly resents immigrants isn’t particularly morally grey, imo. Neither is Lisbeth Salander. Heck, even Dixon isn’t that morally grey, for that matter. But his characterisation is somewhere in the ballpark of what I mean.

I didn’t say anything about said morally grey characters or the films centring them being ‘celebrated’ (which I actually think is very hard to establish in the internet era, anyway. Celebrated where? Whom by?). I would argue that many of the ones you listed (apart from Oppenheimer) are indie-ish or in the very least indie-adjacent films. But in any case, I would say none of the above characters are morally grey enough. The likes of Daniel Plainview from There Will Be Blood do count, but it’s been a while since that came out, and recent films seem much more black-and-white under the surface.

On the whole, of course, no one can argue with your point that films with morally grey protagonists are still being made, in the very least because more films than ever before are being made in any case, there are more people watching them than ever before, and so on. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m definitely sensing a broader ‘moralising’ turn in films away from genuine moral ambiguity and greyness, even in non-western films, which to me is a little sad, that’s all. Ultimately it’s almost a question of semantics — not sure I’d agree that morally grey protagonists are ‘bleak’; I think of them as refreshing and real.

You can't have finished Redmond Barry already?

Nope, I have not. I had to take a 10.30 pm work call (still going — the glory of my fully remote multi-continental job!) and while I’m on it, I may as well respond to what I hadn’t responded to.

You're very good at typing whilst talking. No wonder you have a multi continental job.

Haha, thank you — I wear that as a badge of honour! Seriously, that’s what it feels like I do these days — typing while talking while finishing different bits of writing. But hey, I’m managing so far!

You wrote this piece below during a work call?

I did, yes. Admittedly, in my notes app because I try to check for typos before posting here (which, I still had some!). But I’m very used to writing multiple things in multiple places simultaneously while paying attention. Again, this is kind of my job at this point!

The call has since ended, thankfully. Midnight for me now. Endless bloody days.

Just because the person creates the thread doesn't mean he endorses it.

This needs to be my motto

Lol this is funny.
Why create it then? To start DRAMA?!?!

Best post on the thread.

Not quite here I think. We all have moral opinions on the stuff we watch: this is acceptable, this I think is abhorrent, etc., and it is a normal reaction. What modernity has done is give a platform, an individual entitlement to these opinions. People really do not care about censoring a piece, they are not trying to ban Blonde from circulation; they just want to be heard and spread saying that Blonde is a vile misogynistic crap -which I think it is but not for the hypersexualization but rather the contrary-, and they are not discussing censorship.

This fascination many people have developed, for the idea of becoming a moral reference for the others, an influencer of opinion, taste or ragebait, is the sole reason behind many of these behaviours. They don't want to erase these movies from existence; heck, the apparent effect of their rants is usually positive for the movies, through free viral publicity or hatewatch. They just want to feel that their opinion matters, has weight and is validated by others.

The whole scenario of a new form of censorship, self-censorship or a lobby more or less secretly making films and filmmakers disappear after their proverbial cancellation keeps not happening, despite the constant calls claiming there is. One reason, in my opinion, is that there is not a real sense of collective organization behind these visceral reactions to stuff; internet virality doesn't count. Another is that there is simply not intent, because that would be a completely different beast to handle for people that just want to rant and get likes.

I agree, but I don't this will ever go away. Different times, different moral horrors. We've been through waves of the righteous protesting sex, violence, bad behavior, communism, or whatever, wanting it banned from movies. They've generally been at least somewhat successful, but never completely.

Way back, this resulted in a compromise position from the industry, which was to put ratings on movies, that whole G - X thing. As long as the industry makes money from the "dubious" movies, they will probably go on. I my life, it's seemed as though the balance what what's "evil" has changed, but it's always been something.

"Support" is a vaporous concept, since the real concept is probably simple Profit. If they can make money, they will do it.

I saw people who said all copies should be burned and Dominik should be thrown into jail but I do realize that such fringe voices get more than necessary exposure on the internet, which creates an illusion of them being stronger/greater in quantity.

How?

So they're basically attention whoring?

__________________
San Franciscan lesbian dwarves and their tomato orgies.

How do you know this, out of interest?

Marilyn was one of my most interesting profiles incidentally:

54. Marilyn Monroe Born 1926 Film Debut 1947
After a difficult childhood which involved foster homes and suspected abuse, followed by marriage at 16 to a next door neighbour to get around custody laws, Monroe started modelling and got a contract with Fox and where she was enrolled in acting school and appeared in a couple of films in 1947. Although she returned to modelling after her contract wasn’t renewed, Monroe continued with the acting lessons. She also became a casual girlfriend of a friend of Harry Cohn, the head executive of Columbia Pictures, who was persuaded to sign her in 1948. At Columbia, Monroe's look was modelled after Rita Hayworth and her hair was bleached platinum blonde. When her contract at Columbia ended, Monroe returned again to modelling. After finding uncontracted minor roles in All About Eve (1950) and The Asphalt Jungle (1950) she obtained a seven-year contract with 20th Century-Fox.
In 1952, the Hollywood Foreign Press Association named Monroe the "best young box office personality". In her private life, Monroe had a short relationship with director Elia Kazan and also briefly dated director Nicholas Ray and actors Yul Brynner and Peter Lawford. In early 1952, she began a highly publicized romance with retired New York Yankees baseball star Joe DiMaggio, one of the most famous sports personalities of the era.
Monroe found herself at the center of a scandal in March 1952, when she revealed publicly that she had posed for a nude calendar in 1949. In the wake of the scandal, Monroe was featured on the cover of Life magazine as the "Talk of Hollywood" Three of Monroe's films were released soon after to capitalize on the public interest. Despite her newfound popularity as a sex symbol, Monroe also wished to showcase more of her acting range. She had begun taking acting classes with Michael Chekhov and mime Lotte Goslar soon after beginning the Fox contract, For Clash by Night(1952), a drama starring Barbara Stanwyck and directed by Fritz Lang, she received positive reviews for her performance. Variety wrote that she "has an ease of delivery which makes her a cinch for popularity". She also continued with her typecasting in comedic roles that highlighted her sex appeal. In Howard Hawks's Monkey Business, in which she acted opposite Cary Grant, she played a secretary who is a "dumb, childish blonde, innocently unaware of the havoc her sexiness causes around her". Monroe added to her reputation as a new sex symbol with publicity stunts, and told gossip columnist Earl Wilson that she usually wore no underwear.
Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (1953), cemented her screen persona as a "dumb blonde". How to Marry a Millionaire (1953) featured Monroe as a naïve model who teams up with her friends to find rich husbands, repeating the successful formula of Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. Monroe's position as a leading sex symbol was confirmed in December 1953, when Hugh Hefner featured her on the cover and as centerfold in the first issue of Playboy; Monroe did not consent to the publication. The cover image was a photograph taken of her at the Miss America Pageant parade in 1952, and the centerfold featured one of her 1949 nude photographs. By this time it’s understood that Monroe was using barbiturates, amphetamines, and alcohol, although she did not become severely addicted until 1956 .
She married DiMaggio in January 1954. In September of that year, Monroe began filming Billy Wilder's comedy The Seven Year Itch as a woman who becomes the object of her married neighbour's sexual fantasies. Although the film was shot in Hollywood, the studio decided to generate advance publicity by staging the filming of a scene in which Monroe is standing on a subway grate with the air blowing up the skirt of her white dress on Lexington Avenue in Manhattan. The shoot lasted for several hours and attracted nearly 2,000 spectators . The "subway grate scene" became one of Monroe's most famous, and The Seven Year Itch (1955) became one of the biggest commercial successes of the year. The publicity stunt placed Monroe on international front pages, and it also marked the end of her marriage to DiMaggio, who was infuriated by it .
In 1955 she left Fox and started her own production company and moved to Manhattan to take classes in method acting at the Actors Studio, run by Lee Strasberg .
Monroe continued her relationship with DiMaggio despite the ongoing divorce process; she also dated actor Marlon Brando and playwright Arthur Miller. Miller was being investigated by the FBI for allegations of communism, and the relationship led to the FBI opening a file on her . At the end of the year she signed a new and much improved deal with Fox.
In 1958 she acted opposite Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis in Billy Wilder's comedy on gender roles, Some Like It Hot. In spite of difficult filming including fall outs with Curtis and Wilder, Some Like It Hot was a critical and commercial success when released in 1959. Monroe's performance earned her a Golden Globe for Best Actress, and prompted Variety to call her "a comedienne with that combination of sex appeal and timing that just can't be beat". After this however her issues with drugs became more significant and her career went into decline. Monroe died of barbiturate poisoning in 1962, which was recorded as probable suicide
Monroe was perceived as a specifically American star, "a national institution as well known as hot dogs, apple pie, or baseball" according to Photoplay . Monroe's screen persona as a dim-witted but sexually attractive blonde was carefully crafted. She often used a breathy, childish voice in her films, and in interviews gave the impression that everything she said was "utterly innocent and uncalculated", parodying herself with double entendres that came to be known as "Monroeisms" . For example, when asked playfully by a journalist what she had on in the 1949 (nude) photo shoot, she replied, "I had the radio on".
Art historian Gail Levin stated that Monroe may have been "the most photographed person of the 20th century", and The American Film Institute has named her the sixth greatest female screen legend in American film history. The Smithsonian Institution has included her on their list of "100 Most Significant Americans of All Time" , and both Variety and VH1 have placed her in the top ten in their rankings of the greatest popular culture icons of the twentieth century . Hundreds of books have been written about Monroe. She has been the subject of numerous films, plays, operas, and songs, and has influenced artists and entertainers such as Andy Warhol and Madonna . Monroe's enduring popularity is tied to her conflicted public image. On the one hand, she remains a sex symbol, beauty icon and one of the most famous stars of classical Hollywood cinema . On the other, she is also remembered for her troubled private life, unstable childhood, struggle for professional respect, as well as her death and the conspiracy theories that surrounded it. She has been written about by scholars and journalists who are interested in gender and feminism; Owing to the contrast between her stardom and troubled private life, Monroe is closely linked to broader discussions about modern phenomena such as mass media, fame, and consumer culture. According to academic Susanne Hamscha, has called Monroe the "eternal shapeshifter" who is re-created by "each generation, even each individual... to their own specifications" . In regards her acting, Roger Ebert wrote that "Monroe's eccentricities and neuroses on sets became notorious, but studios put up with her long after any other actress would have been blackballed because what they got back on the screen was magical".
Golden Globe award Best Actress x 1
David di Donatello Award Best Foreign Actress x1
American Film Institute 6th greatest actress of the Golden Hollywood era
Notable flims: The Asphalt Jungle (1950) All About Eve (1950) Love Nest (1951) Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (1953) How to Marry a Millionaire (1953) The Seven Year Itch (1955) Some Like it Hot (1959)



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