Plodding and Phony - "Pearl Harbor" Stumbles

Uh, I see a major difference between executing POWs, and bombing in retaliation, don't you? (dangitt, where's Timing when I need him?) I'm sorry, but I'm fed up with the US being demonized, as we ALWAYS are.

Ok, let us bring this thread to its nasty demonizing conclusion.

COMPARISONS:

THE JAPANESE RECORD:
Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, a military installation, killing thousands of innocent seamen.

THE AMERICAN RECORD:
In retaliation, the US fire-bombs major military installation? Tokyo (burning to death thousands of innocent civilians), A-bombs Hiroshima & Nagasaki (incinerating thousands of civilians more & killing even more down the road because of radiation sickness)

THE JAPANESE RECORD:
The Japanese murder & torture thousands of American & Filipino POWS during the Bataan Death March. During the Rape of Nanking, the Japanese killed even more Chinese for sport, sometimes even staging thrilling decapitation contests.

THE AMERICAN RECORD:
The Americans barely bother keeping POWS in Vietnam ;
instead, they burn villages (because the Vietcong might be hiding there), they shoot innocent men and women in the rice fields (because they might be Vietcong in disguise), they shoot children (because they might be working for the Vietcong).

THE BRITISH RECORD:
And lest people think I believe my own nation is peachy keen, 27,000 Boer civilians died in British concentration camps of starvation & mistreatment during the Boer War (1899-1902). I believe we also massacred hundreds of Indians in the name of Queen Victoria and in the Falkland War (Mount Longdon, 1982) -- British troops machine gunned Argentinian POWS and were even said to have collected bags of POWs ears.) No prosecutions ever followed.

Note: By the way, I don't know if a British colonel actually herded American colonials into a church and cremated them alive, but I will be sure to ask Mel Gibson.

Do you still wish to continue this thread, Commish?

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Pigsnie, Vicar of Fries!

The fact remains: We killed innocent civilians. The Japanese soldiers executed POWs, who were directly involved in the war. The large majority of those dead civilians had no direct relation to the war effort, nor did they pose any sort of threat to us. The U.S. is often "demonized" for a reason. I mean, Jesus, we put Japanese Americans in concentration camps. You don't read about how we turned our back when Hitler began killing Jews, but we did. Only when we were threatened did we retaliate. Too often Americans are painted as crusaders, fighting injustice and ridding the world of evil. In reality, we're selfish pricks.

Let me ask you this: Why did we get into the Gulf war? Was it because we loved the good and hardworking Kuwaiti people?

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**** the Lakers!

Thank you for that brilliantly succint reply, SteveN. Under the 1938 Geneva Convention, I am forbidden to call Americans "selfish pr*cks." I can call the Queen any name I please however.

Continue how? Are you asking me if I wish to engage in it further, or if I want to close it down because of it's bluntness?

What exactly is your point, Pigsnie? Did I claim the US as innocent? I believe what I said was that you cannot declare a country more barbaric overall, but it's better to look at individual times or individual wars. I also said I did not like the way the US is constantly demonized. Do you take issue with those? I honestly don't see what point you are trying to make here.

I'm sure there's also more than meets the eye. I don't know that a retaliation bombing is quite as bad if it's done when provoked. That matter is subjective.

As an American the day after the fourth of July ...

Pigsnie, yes, all our countries have done something nasty.

1. Some necessary, some not.
2. Some atrocious actions provoked, some not.

Who's to blame? A general thing, mankind's vicious, darker, egotistical, bloodthirsty, self-righteous, blind tendencies ... demonstrated by all groups, when pushed up against the wall, and sometimes, for the hell of it, demonstrating the ugly that comes out of all cultures and nations at any given time with enough motivation, support, and resources. Not even religious movements are blameless, let alone world powers.

Who's more specifically to blame? Governments with specific people in power at a specific point in time with specific resources to manipulate armies and civilians in strategic coups and moral atrocities on the world Risk board. We cannot control the past nor get tense with one another NOW discussing what we cannot change. Us little people here engaging in this discussion should chill cause getting hot at one another doesn't do anything and is barking up the wrong tree.

Shall we work instead to establish positive understanding and learning of the situation, steadfastly hope to never demonstrate the ugly in humankind again, and touch all others we encounter witha that same, perhaps vain hope that we can hold it bay ... with the possibility that just maybe, on some tiny chance, we can?

And rather than trying to lay out who did what, who is more right about what facts, etc., dear Pigsnie, and others, let us simply say ... draw.

No, Commish, you did not claim the US is innocent in so many words, but you certainly seemed to agree with Timing about Japan's general barbarity. (You even invoked Timing's name!) And I listed the above atrocities to illustrate how this reprehensible thread now seems to be coming down to a matter of "how many did you torture in the war, Daddy?"

You know, Commish, sometimes I wonder about you. You are an intelligent, well-spoken young man (like Steve) but you seem pretty insular. You have never expressed much curiosity about the world outside your front yard ; you do not seem to show much interest in other cultures -- you don't even seem to like foreign movies. I am not insulting you ; I just noticed, is all.

Ah, Thmilin, a "draw" is what I was getting at earlier, but I think I probably went about it in too circuitous a manner for hot-tempered young men to appreciate. No wonder only mechas are left in the end.

I mentioned Timing because he's the only one who was arguing with ya'll. It was meant as a bit of a joke...I should have included a smilie face in my post.

Well, Pigsnie, you're quite free to believe what you want about me, and quite frankly, if you believe it strongly enough to post it here, I have little hope of convincing you otherwise. I will say this: you must realize that you know very little about me overall, or what I do with my time. If you want a specific example, here's one: if I were truly close-minded, and stuck in my own world, WANTING to be oblivious to all else, I would not read Anti-Christian material to analyze my own beliefs, and I would not engage in discussions like this with strangers.

I would like to discuss this a bit further in email, if you don't mind. I'm willing to discuss this openly with you, but this forum is not quite the place for it. Would you be willing?

Anyway, getting back on subject: I do appreciate your words a couple posts back. It illustrated how ridiculous some of this is. In the end (as thmilin very eloquently pointed out), we are all of the same species, and we have all commited heinous acts.

Sorry but your "Comparisons" are very incomplete and your insistence on name calling is simply proof that you have nothing to back up your argument aside from generalities.

Japan attacked the US without provocation. They to this day deny everything associated with their unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor and their atrocities across Asia. They murdered Americans citizens in Japan, they murdered POW's, they tortured, raped, and murdered women and children all across Asia. These are facts not in dispute, except maybe for you.

The US gave Japan prior warning of an atomic bomb attack and asked their Emperor to surrender. He refuses so the US drops an atomic bomb. Japan still refuses to surrender so the US drops another atomic bomb after which the Emperor finally agrees to surrender. The truth is that given Japan's kamikaze fighting tactics, the estimates of American deaths that would have been incurred by a forced invasion of Japan would have been in the hundreds of thousands. America's use of atomic bombs might be viewed by you as an outrage, but it's generally viewed by Americans (particularly Americans waiting for their impending deaths on ships outside of Japan) something that saved hundreds of thousands of American lives. Japan certainly could have avoided an atomic attack at any time by simply responding to repeated calls for a surrender. Pearl Harbor was an unprovoked sneak attack, the dropping of atomic bombs was certainly not unprovoked and definitely not a sneak attack.

These are the TRUTHS about WW2. Your insinuations about Vietnam are also incredibly incomplete. The Viet Cong and NVA were incredibly ruthless against THEIR OWN citizens. How many thousands of women and children did they murder before the US even got there? The long history of American POW's tortured, murdered, and abused by Vietnam is well chronicled.

The overriding importance of all of this is Japan's insistance on denying these facts and their reluctance in taking responsibility for their atrocities. In doing so they are creating a new generation of Japanese that is completely ignorant of the crimes committed by their own government.

Timing, why do you refuse to acknowledge that yes, Americans have done some pretty terrible things too?

Hey Timing, you havent answered my question about My lai. thought Id remind you.

And Japan attacked Pearl harbor becuz the US was the greatest threat to their plans of dominatin the Philippines, australia, india, new zealand & the rest of southeast asia. Im not sayin what Japan did was right but if you wanted to conquer the world, how else do you disable your enemys navy except by sneak attack. You think maybe yamamoto should have called first & explained his plans?

TWT I hope you dont think Pigsnie was being insultin about the insularity business - he just knows a lot of americans dont really pay much attention to whats happenin in the rest of the world and thats disapointing to him. Maybe if you watch Seven samurai he'll change his mind!! loll

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God save Freddie Mercury!

Can I ask again? Why won't the Commish watch Seven Samurai?

I don't know where to find it, and I don't enjoy renting movies as much as seeing them in the theatre. If I come across it I might rent it, but I don't feel like doing any searching, if that's what it will take.

You are welcome to email me any time you please. We shall have a nice chat, I daresay, Commish.

Let me introduce myself first--before I wade in on my first post and offend people. I am EL COOTIE (an Army name) and I'm one of those guests you guys complain about who never posts.

But when I started seeing the direction Pearl Harbor discussion was doing, I'm deciding to say my piece. I should have said something earlier but I'm not much of a talker. But I cannot let Timing get away with his inflammatory posts--which are totally about bashing Japan. And nothing to do about patriotism or even accuracy!

To actally read that nuking Japan was not so bad-- it was even good--because it saved American lives. Timing, if you want to talk about the rape, torture & murder of American POWs, why won't you discuss (as Steve says) the rape
(please comment on the birth defects and spontaneous abortions caused by radiation sickness), torture (please comment on cancerous tumors, blood disorders, loss of limbs, slow death--again caused by radiation) and murder
(incineration of thousands of Japanese civilians) Did I read that "the retaliatory bombing of Nagasaki & Hiroshima" was justified or BETTER than that of the Unprovoked Attack on Pearl Harbor.

KILLING CAN NEVER BE JUSTIFIED!

Someone claims that "you cannot declare a country more barbaric overall . . . " yet this is what Timing has been doing all along--the guy was demonizing Japan yet TWT didn't object to it until Pigsnie started listing American
atrocities and then he says "American is being constantly demonized."

I also agree with Wart and Pigsnie that Timing was wilfully overlooking the devastating effect of war on everyone and how obscene it is to quote NUMBERS!

I mean--- you could say that the indifference of Americans contributed to the extermination of 7 million Jews. Until Pearl Harbor, that is. How obscene is that?

To Thmilin, I understand where you're coming from but we can't learn without discussing the past--as painful as that is.

I believe I am a patriotic American. I am a Vietnam vet. But I am not blind (the way Timing is) to the bad things that we, as Americans did-- to Vietnamese and Japanese civilians. Yeah--Vietnam was bad because we couldn't
tell the enemy from innocent villagers. So to be safe--we killed everybody. Hard for me to admit that but there it is.

Japanese internment by Americans--there are many ways to torture and kill. Do you realize how humiliating it is to a Japanese to be treated the way the US treated the them. Losing face like that is like "death" in their culture.
(I have a japanese wife.) I have two sons in the Navy. I have also adopted 2 Vietnamese orphans (a brother and a sister)--whose parents were killed by American mortar shells. And they were not Vietcong. But a farmer and a schoolteacher.

So Timing, before you start quoting statistics to me and telling people how Japanese are (when you're not even Japanese), maybe you should take a good hard look at yourself. And learn from others instead of preaching about something you know nothing about.

Of course killing can be justified. How about in self-defense? That statement was far too broad for my tastes. I have not read this entire thread, and wasn't attacking anyone inparticular when I made my comment about America. Fact of the matter is that we're constantly put down and demonized, and I'm tired of it. That's all I really want to say here.

Appreciate your honesty very much, El Cootie. Very nice to have a vet amongst us, and I hope you can now become a poster rather than a lurker.

Yes, good to hear from you El Cootie ... thank goodness we got you to speak up! Hope you keep it up.

My dad's a Vietnam Vet (Navy - so that's a different experience), and most of my family joined the Navy and most of their friends, as well. They are all still in or retired, or civilians working for the government in some capacity. But, thank god I didn't grow up in the general military brat way, though. personal stuff, I digress.

"To Thmilin, I understand where you're coming from but we can't learn without discussing the past--as painful as that is. "

I didn't mean not to discuss it at all but to avoid what was becoming, as you said, comparisons - numbers, who did worse, etc. That turns it into something objective, and dismisses the true human suffering involved. When you get hotheaded you don't understand what is being said and you can't learn from it. You're just talking at each other, trying to prove how much you know and how right you are, rather than come to an understanding beyond your experience. We cannot learn that way, as you suggest we need to do. I totally agree we need to learn, so as not to repeat the past, and to grow above and beyond that past and hopefully become a world culture that strives to neer do such things again.

The point is, all groups commit atrocities, and none is "more justified" or excused, or worse, than any other. Especially when you refer to a people or a country at a certain time. Japan NOW is not the same as Japan THEN. I mean, the youth in Asia are so Westernized that I mean, it's just such a different world! In Tokyo, in Seoul, the kids run around singing our rap songs, wearing our style of dress, eating hamburgers ... it's all got an Asian twist, but I mean, the world is becoming smaller, how can we continue to speak as "us" and "them" ... too bad I'll be dead before the world is truly without lines.

I myself grew up in Southeast Asia - and I am half Filipino. I am well versed in Asian culture, and know indeed how deep humiliation can go - it is, very much, like death. Face, familial, and societal conceptions are everything. To be "conquered" in any shape or form is a scar on the entire Japanese psyche, but it is healing. They are well aware of what they have done. Some still choose to believe it was justified, and some know it was wrong but accept their burden of guilt. Some had no choice and had no desire to be involved. Many were innocents. Many were not. Some hold onto old hatreds and some taught their children to let it go. Some even embraced the future with hope and did not let it stop them - some come to America now, seeking opportunity, and some marry Americans, like your wife El Cootie, and like my own mother, and so many others. It is the new generation that is a reflection of where we will go, and we cannot judge them off the past, nor assume our past is any cleaner.

I understand entirely why Americans are disliked, or even hated - every time I go into both the common tourist and more out of the way parts of Japan, South Korea, etc., we're sneered at, laughed at, our money is taken for items sold while glares and insults are thrown at our backs. I've been jostled out of the way on the street, openly stared at, and spat at. I could be an arrogant American and assume I've never done anything wrong. I know that *I* haven't, but I completely recognize why others would feel that my simple existence walking on their streets is an ugly sight to them, an insult, whatever. Relations are complicated, and there is more than one side to everything.

I also understand entirely how vehemently the Japanese are loathed. In high school a perfectly intelligent, academic, well-rounded young South Korean fellow shocked us all on our Speech and Drama team when he refused to be in a performance whose characters were Japanese and re-enacting the drama and horror experienced when the bombs were dropped. Our coach wanted him to be the lead. He went beet red, he went quiet, and the hatred in his voice chilled my bones. He absolutely refused to even be in the play at all, let alone play the main character. And the irony was that the story was about two innocent lovers working at a hospital parted, one lost in the bombing. What more tender, powerful story could there be? The Koreans hate the Japanese with a vengeance. Most of SouthEast Asia does. They raped, murdered, and humiliated the people of various Asian countries ... and these countries find it very hard to forget. The older people won't let it go ... some pass it on to their children, like this guy, who eventually did play the part but you could tell the whole time he couldn't stand it. but it was a good lesson for him to learn.

and some teach their children to move on, to know what was committed, and even if the entrenched Japanese government is wishy washy about openly admitting their crimes, um, what government would? The US sure doesn't. but to keep our children as educated as possible and teach them to embrace other cultures. Pigsnie, here, I agree with you, it's a sad thing when people don't look beyond, but I have no comment as to whether Chris does or not cause that's not my business In doing that, in moving beyond, in learning, El Cootie, about things like this, and not allowing our anger to get the best of ourselves, we can all learn and not repeat such things.

No, TWT---killing can NEVER be justified. It wasnt broad at all. Self-defense? I don't have to take a life to save myself. I've had enough. Not even for my family will I kill. I don't care about vengeance or retribution or whatnot. Its just a destructive cycle. It doesn't solve anything. If you ever become a soldier, TWT, or have a family--maybe you'll have a better understanding of death and killing. Sometimes I cant sleep nights knowing what I did.

America is no more demonized than Japan or Vietnam or Germany or the Soviet Union . . .

And thank you for the welcome . . . Pigsnie and Thmilin and I appreciate your views, knowledge and understanding of the issues confronting Asians. Its nice to be here. Steve N, your impassioned defense was also appreciated. I let my wife read this thread and at some point, she was even in tears. Joyful tears I think. I have not seen Wart. Is he coming back?