What did you think of Memoirs Of A Geisha (2005)?

I watched the movie and I felt it failed to draw me into this world and it left me scratching my head at a lot of it.

I don't know much about Japanese culture, but I felt like they were making too big of a deal about this whole geisha thing, and the women were just way too fanatical about it. Plus I didn't understand why they would buy children from the streets and raise them as geishas, because that is just going to cause them all to compete against each other and sabotage each other, so therefore, you cannot make a business out of that?

It would make more sense to go into business for yourself, rather than buy and raise a bunch of competitors. At least that is what I took from the movie and I did not understand the characters goals, cause they were so petty, yet they were so fanatic about them, and I could not get behind them or their cause as a result.

SPOILER

I also felt the ending was forced, as in the main character, it turned out, was seaking the effections of the chairman all her life, and everything she did was to get him in the end. I was thinking what??? And the chairman felt the same way all along and I was just in disbelief of this whole thing. Just because he bought her some food when she was a kid, I did not see this as enough for her to chase after him with every decision in life she makes was for him. It was trying to be all Cinderella-ish and romantic, when it was all just so petty I thought.

And I didn't buy into the chairman feeling the same way, cause he we hardly see this character development, and the few scenes that he is in, are from the main character's POV, so his motives are very hidden, and therefore feel like a super convenience for the ending, rather than being properly built up.

Plus you never really buy that she needs to become a geisha to get a rich man. I mean again the movie doesn't explain the culture much and expects the viewer to take a lot at face value. But the main character is played by gorgeous Ziyi Zhang, why would she need to go through so much practice, to get a rich guy? I mean if the main character was played by someone like say... Margaret Cho, I would see where she maybe would feel that she needed to up her game more. But we have someone as goodlooking as Ziyi Zhang upping her game so much, for money that is just going to go back to the people who bought her anyway. Why?

But that is just what I took from the movie, on a first viewing. What did you think?

I loved the book and thought the movie was gorgeous. I appreciate that is your takeaway but I'm really findng the I Don't Get This Movie threads way too forced. Especially this one.

Oh sorry, I don't mean for it to sound forced, I literally didn't grasp parts of the movie, and otherwise I wouldn't have made a post about it, asking what other people thought.

I ask when during a movie, there are parts I do not understand and I am left scratching my head at character motivations or possible plot holes, so I was just wondering, and did not mean to come off as it being forced.

It's a fictional account about a geisha. You know, a story. You need to relax... A lot.

I love Zhang Ziyi and Michelle Yeoh in this, although I don't think either one were quite at their best here. I agree with Dani, it's a gorgeous film, and I remember liking it a lot. But I've never felt the urge to watch it again, and I don't remember it being great. Overall I'd say it's slightly above average I guess.

I understand that, but they don't explain why the women characters are so desperate to become geishas, even to the point where they feel it's worth loosing their own sanity in the process. I just felt they should have explained that better, so I could get behind it more.

I know it's just a movie, but how do other movie viewers decide whether or not they like a movie, if they can't make sense of it? How do you others do it?

It's called being entertained. Or you could learn a bit about Japanese culture and be even more entertained. Do you ask these I Don't Understand questions all the time in your fikm course?

Maybe you just didn't like this and a myriad of other movies. M

Okay thanks. I tried reading about the Japanese culture of it, but there are things they don't get into, or their are holes in some of the background explanations I find. But I feel the movie should have explained this as the movie did have a narrator and all, and feel if they did, it would have probably cleared things up. I am done my film school course now, so can't ask now.

Unlike village people and poor women geishas were not looked down upon. They were prestigious and -- often a misunderstanding -- they were not prostitutes. They were trained in the art of entertaining the customer. That is, they recited poetry, played shamisen and yes, flirted with customers, but these were all fleeting things. Unless the customer fell in love with one and decided to marry her and buy her off, of course.


It is a matter of culture. It was and still is so different from the Western culture it is very hard to grasp it, because you lack substantial knowledge about it and cultural background you'd get living there. But yeah, I don't want to pose as an expert on the topic of geishas, because I don't think myself one.


I personally found it weird and distracting that all female leads were played by Chinese actresses...





I... I... am not even mad, but for realism's sake, for freak's sake!

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Look, I'm not judging you - after all, I'm posting here myself, but maybe, just maybe, if you spent less time here and more time watching films, maybe, and I stress, maybe your taste would be of some value. Just a thought, ya know.

Oh okay. I definitely want to understand it to understand the movie better . I just felt the geishas did paradoxical things, that only made things worse for themselves, and I was confused as to why they were so desperate about this profession that they were willing to loose their sanity over it. I just didn't understand the desperation, and why they thought if they didn't get the attention of these rich men, that it was the end of the world for them. I guess I felt they were overdramatizing their jobs, but I want to understand it .

As for Chinese actresses playing Japanese characters, I didn't really think it was a problem or a big deal.

For example, in Schindler's List, Liam Neeson, Ralph Fiennes, are not German but are playing German characters, and Ben Kingsley is not a Polish Jew, but was playing one.

So I didn't think it was a big deal, since it's been done several times before in acclaimed movies.

It's been 7 years since I saw the film, but judging from other Japanese films I saw, the geisha business was often portrayed as competitive and I think it has a strong correlation to the overall culture and social structure of then Japanese society. Apart from simple rivalry and competition you can find in almost any profession, there was another reason why it was so important for them.

After all every woman was brought up with the idea of getting married and serving her future husband in mind. Of course, this is perceived as extremely sexist nowadays, but back then it was just a part of the everyday as Japanese society was extremely divided and both sexes had predefined roles they had to abide by.

Unless you were really one of the best geishas that could freely get the best customers and live off this to the end of your life (which might have been the goal of many of these girls), you had to sooner or later find a husband. Finding a rich husband ensured not only social status and pride, but also secured the girl financially to the end of her life. A thing very important to "children bought from the street" as you put it.

Needless to say most girls were simply forced to become geishas as they were e.g. sold by their families to pay off a debt. They were very unhappy about it, so they struggled "for a better tomorrow" with hope of finding a husband that will treat them decently. The films of Kenji Mizoguchi, who is often called the first Japanese feminist director, address some of these issues quite often. Many films of his contemporary - Yasujiro Ozu - talk, on the other hand, about the doubts concerning arranged marriage. However, whereas the female leads in the movies of the former often actively go against the social norms which ends up in tragedy, the girls in the movies of the latter often just end up accepting their fate. Another trait of a classical Japanese woman - submissiveness, acceptance of her fate held in other people's hands.

I found it a problem, because I could tell the actresses were Chinese, and not Japanese by just looking at them meaning their facial features etc. If you just look at Liam Neeson, or Ben Kingsley you can't really tell whether they are French, German, American, or English. When I look at Li Gong I'm just not buying she is a Japanese woman, because her beauty screams Chinese all over her face.

Oh okay. I wasn't aware that the facial differences were that obvious, and thought that telling a Japanese person from a Chinese person, was probably as difficult as telling an Irishman from a German, for example.

But even in other movies, they do this and no one complains. In season 4, of 24, which I am watching right now, Arnold Vosloo plays an Arab terrorist, and is not Arab, but a lot of fans didn't mind, I don't think.

There are still things I do not get about the geisha culture. For one thing, why would other geisha's care about buying children of the streets and raising them as geishas? This would increase a geisha's competition, if they were to take on proteges. So since the competition is so high, as the movie suggests, then why take on proteges, since that would only increase the competition?

Another thing is, since a lot of women wanted to find a rich husband back then, why didn't they do that just by going after the men in other ways, other than becoming geishas? Did men not respect any other profession a woman would have other than a geisha? For example, if a woman decided to work in a rich restaurant as a hostess or waitress to attract rich customers, would that not be enough, and therefore all this geisha training is not worth it?

It is in some cases, but most of the time I am able to differentiate them. Especially women.

Well, whitewashing was very common in old Hollywood (I'm not saying your example is one), but I think such practises should be halted now unless used for a certain i.e. comical effect. But... perhaps I'm exaggerating the problem. It's not like I rate a film lower because of this, you know. Just a pet peeve of mine.

If you think about it this way, why should senior programmers take trainees and junior programmers, train them and supervise them? After all they are a competition too. :P


Because there was no other way for a poor village girl to attract the attention of a rich man who would basically frown upon her when met in the street? The society back then was not like it is nowadays. Right now we don't pay that much attention to wealth and social status. Back then it was quite unthinkable a low-status peasant girl would even dare to talk to anybody of a high status, let alone flirt, or anything. Of course the man could get her with just a snap of his fingers, but why should he get such "filthy peasant" if he could get a dignified geisha well-versed in poetry, music and above all worthy of his attention.


I imagine it would. Or it could have been. Now the question is are we talking about twentieth century Japan, or before that, because both got mixed in our conversation (which is, I admit, my fault)? A poor peasant girl couldn't just simply "choose" to be a hostess. If she was lucky she was made one and was probably super happy she didn't have to become a geisha, or worse, a prostitute.



I think one of the reasons you find it all so hard to understand is not just that you look at these things through the prism of your own culture, but also the fact that you're looking at things of the past. So distant both geographically and historically. But... Don't worry. It's natural. I'm guilty of this too.

Okay thanks, this explains more of it, but I wish the movie offered those explanations rather than making the viewer come on here and ask. Even if you research geisha, a lot of sights, talk about what they did, but they didn't really talk about the 'why' to why they did it and felt so desperate to do it. So I feel the movie should have explained the why better, so viewers would understand the movie better, rather than not make sense of it while watching, and then have to do research after.

But your analogy still doesn't make sense to me as to why geishas would take on proteges and create more competition for themselves. You say why would supervisors take on trainees cause they are all competition too. Good point, why would they? That still doesn't help me understand really.

Although supervisors in today's world, are not near as desperate as geishas back then. Why would a desperate person in huge fear of competition take on proteges?

But why would a woman become a geisha, and work at a geisha house, in all this competition with the others, when they can just go freelance. Like for example, let's say a woman was a trained violinist back then. Why not just be an independent violinist and get a job somewhere, where men will notice?

You say that I am now talking about 20th century Japan, when I talk about women having jobs. So are we to say that before WWII in Japan, a woman not allowed to have any job that requires talent or experience unless she had a geisha rank?

In the movie though, they never explain why Michelle Yeoh's character was so interested in training the protagonist in becoming a full geisha. What was in it for her? Why was she so motivated to do this?

I mean I am not saying the movie doesn't make sense, but without explanation, to me, it comes off as there being several holes in the story. Even if it's a real culture, there are still more questions than answers, that I feel needed to be answered in the movie.

Some people do not like to be spoonfed. The overall premise of any work of art implies that the audience is more or less familiar with the topic, or the background. Or course, it can be taken as a fault of the work of art (that it does not provide easy answers and does not spoon-feed), but I believe a work of art is above all an emotional experience, and only just then an intellectual one. Films should be felt first, understood second. That being said, a person intellectually looking for the explanation will probably still find it afterwards, and then during the film one can just immerse yourself in the film. In its atmosphere, emotional impact, rather than nitpicking about the plot contrivances and whatnots. This way you can profit from a film both emotionally (a katharsis or simply being entertained) while watching it, and intellectually, while analysing it afterwards. And he that asks, does not get lost. I'd like to thank you about all these topics where you simply ask people. They made me realize I myself do not ask enough questions and just take way too many things for granted.

And why do people have children? I'm not talking about "accidents" here. Well, to extend the species. Who would be programming after old programmers retire? One needs to make a way for the new generation. This is a sort of a feeling of a need to continue the tradition so that it doesn't die. Another reason might be that they had so many clients the geishas just couldn't handle as many, so they had to make some more girls geishas.

I don't really think they were as desparate as you make them be (or perhaps the movie makes them be for that matter). The problem is my rusty memory of this particular film. I imagine an already well-established, senior geisha would take a protege, a woman who no longer needed to fear for these things. That might be an explanation.

Once again, I can't remember the film, so I might be missing some character motivations, but I think as far as the general picture goes, I find my explanation above suffiecient.

Okay thanks. Why would a retired geisha, take on a protege though? What's the motivation? You say it's because geishas cannot handle all the clients, but taking on proteges does not solve the problem, cause the proteges are constantly competing against each other like it's a contest, and therefore, having a team of geishas does not work if they are all competing against each other.

I guess the whole films should be felt first, and understood second is a paradox for me, cause in order for me to feel from the movie, I have to understand it first, cause I cannot get behind characters that do not make sense to me, thus making me not feel for them. So I feel I have to understand first in order to feel, if that makes sense.

I feel that some of the insight has helped explain things, but there are still more questions than answers, as I do not understand why they create competition for themselves, within the team, and therefore a team wouldn't logically work, cause it would just lead to backstabbing, which is what happens. So I don't get why this is done in Japan.

But I wouldn't think of an explanation as spoonfeeding. There are lots of historical movies that would give narration, or subtitled paragraphs at the beginning of the movie, giving a summary of the historical world and it's rules, that the movie takes place in. Those movies aren't considered spoonfed at all, so I didn't think this one would be, if they did that.

But I guess part of my enjoyment of the movie was hindered is that I feel that the actresses playing the women were way too goodlooking. I mean it's okay to have one or two, but all the geisha's in the movie, accept for "mother" are really goodlooking. Michelle Yeoh and Gong Li are smoking hot. So it felt it was kind of exploitative or shallow that they would get such goodlooking women to portray the characters.

I guess I just wasn't sold on the fact that rich men would turn them down so much, and wish the movie could have sold it on me more. I don't think it would be spoonfeeding, I think it would be writing 101, as in show the world and it's rules, that you have created.

Why? They all give their best to the customers then and customers end up satisfied. Don't mix the particular plot of the film with the overall historical situation. Remember it is an American film from a major studio, so there might be some inconsistencies.
There are, according to Tarkovsky, two kinds of understanding. The first one is intellectual. It is an agreement on a cerebral, logical level. You understand something if you comprehend it, i.e. an algorithm, a formula. The second one, to quote: "Understanding an artistic image means an aesthetic acceptance of the beautiful, on an emotional or even supra-emotional level.".
There always are.
Again, don't take it for granted only because it happened in one film.
That's a fair point, but I think this is not what you're talking about. You want an explanation of why certain characters behaved in certain ways. You want everything to be clear and explained to you without any room for interpretation. That's spoonfeeding. Good luck trying to understand Tarkovsky's Mirror.
I didn't mind at all.
Well, it's always been like that. A very ugly girl wasn't really considered a good geisha material which is quite obvious. Perhaps too good-looking, yes, but, I mean, we're accustomed to actors in Hollywood films looking good, aren't we?

Oh okay thanks. I just some narration could help explain the characters motivations. I feel that the movie didn't really give me enough interpretation to work off of, since I found the behavior to be contradictory possibly. But you helped explain more .

So if this movie is set in a world where women were in desperate times and had to resort to these desperate things to get a man, why do they act so happy about it then? Michelle Yeoh's character and the main character are so happy to embark on this mentor/protege relationship, and are smiling and the protagonist think's that becoming a geisha, is such a great idealistic thing, when it is desperate times and not idealistic at all.

If these are such desperate times for women, then why are they acting so happy about it a lot of the time? I mean it seems to me that they tried to make it all an enchanting fairy tale, which threw me off a lot with the characters, when perhaps they should have taken an approach more like The Grapes of Wrath, and just have the characters be more depressed and realist about things, cause then their motivations, would make more sense, at least to me.

Take a Grapes of Wrath approach? You do realise it's an entirely different culture.

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But why is Japanese culture all happy, about this lifestyle? I mean the woman is kidnapped as a child, separated from her sister by these people, and then her lifelong mission, is to become one of these same people, and is all too happy to do it. If that is part of Japanese culture, it comes off as very contradictory, and I just don't understand it.

I mean maybe it's some kind of stockholm syndrome but they don't really go into it much in the movie I felt. I mean I understand she is pressured into it because of the time period, but why be so happy about it, when you are being forced?