Christianity, Religion and Atheism

That's a common sentiment: that God, if He were really merciful, would not send good, honest people to Hell simply for not believing in Him. However, I think you've got it backwards: God is not sending us to Hell. We're choosing Hell. We're closer to Hell than Heaven right now. It is up to us to WANT to go elsewhere. It is not God tossing us off a cliff if we don't follow Him...it's us dangling off the edge of a cliff, deciding whether or not to accept His hand to pull us back up to safety.

C.S. Lewis seems to believe that Hell may very well be a place of bitterness and inwardness. I personally do not think it's really a lake of fire. I do not think being in Hell is like that. I think those in Hell are bitter and resentful and only think of themselves, so that they would not choose to leave. I see Hell as chosen.

There's another issue here: can someone be good and honest without following Jesus? I wouldn't be so sure. Maybe by our standards...but obviously I think there's more to it than that.

Anyway, regarding your last few sentences: from a secular standpoint, yes, he's basically on the same level...but certainly you cannot fault him for believing himself to be correct over the others. That's why he believes what he believes; because he thinks it superior.

(I don't mind if you can't be stuffed reading this, it's your choice)


Humanity can boast one perfect Person. We killed him.

The message of the Bible is God loves us but he cannot let us enter heaven if we are sinful. And everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's standards. Therefore he made the ultimate sacrifice, he gave his son over to sinful men to be crucified.



One of the Bible's most basic teachings is that followers of other religions have been enticed by deceptive spirits who are utterly opposed to the God who created us and loves us. (Romans 1:18-23; 1 Corinthians 10:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12; 1 Timothy 4:1)

Even the first two of the ten commandments - have no other gods, make no idols - show that God regards it as a grave offence to become involved in other religions. (Exodus 20:3-4)

No matter how similar non-Christian religions are, their truths are laced with errors that entice their devout followers away from the true God.

We despise this biblical revelation because it forces us to make a decision about religion.
It sounds narrow-minded, but Jesus affirmed that the way to God is narrow, and that few people go that way. (Matthew 7:14) Anyone really sincere, however, will seek truth no matter how unpalatable it seems.



If someone asks me "Are you sure you'll end up in heaven" then I will always answer with certainty, "Yes!"

Ask a muslim, and he/she'll answer something like "Maybe, If Allah is kind."




BTW

Dude, B&W. Does your nickname stand for "Black&White"? Because that's how you apparently look at the world.

Here's a recommendation for ya. Go study the Quran. Get the Abdullah Yusif translation. And don't just read it....STUDY it. You could learn a lot.

That's all I'm going to say. I'm not going to get sucked into this debate. I'll let other people try to hammer a chink into that fundamentalist armor you've got there, and I wish them the best of luck.

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Everything is destined to reappear as simulation.
Jean Baudrillard
America, 1988

Sullivan: I happen to think plenty of major issues are indeed black and white. I think it's too convienent for most people to paint everything gray. Some people may think it's easier to live in a black and white world, but I'm not so sure. It means owning up to things clearly and obviously. See, I don't think things are gray...I think it's all black and white, but we just can't see which is which yet in all cases. I think the fundamental issues are quite clear, though. And everyone: please do let up on B&W here...I don't agree with his methods (partially because I don't think anyone is convinced by them), but I think he honestly means well.

Here's a recommendation for you. Go study the God's Word. Get the any translation. And don't just read it....STUDY it. You will learn the meaning of life.

My friend I have friends who have been Muslim all their lives and have then experienced the Love of Christ.
And so have I. I know clearer than black and white, that there is a God, and because of Jesus' precious gift to us I can call myself a son of God!
Thats Amazing!


Please answer this question if you think other religions are better/just as good/i'm an ***hole etc etc

I think the world is too complicated and complex a place to see everything in black and white. There are too many variables, too many things that fall through the cracks. I also think that's one of the reasons people turn to religion - humans feel the need to believe in something higher, more important, more significant than themselves. I believe it's an innate trait.

(Don't get me wrong. I'm not presenting any of my opinions on religions themselves, because quite frankly I don't know where I stand. And I'm okay with that.)

I think it's so much easier to paint the world in black and white, because it basically eliminates ambiguity. For me, the ambiguous aspects of life are where all of the greatest achievements in history have grown. Where there's no clear solution, there's a purpose to change things, to be alive, to do great things. It's how I learn about myself, others, and the material world. I'm depressed by people who think they have all the answers, they know what to do, and know exactly where they are headed (emotionally, that is). What is the point of being alive if you already know everything?



I don't fault him for thinking he's right. I don't fault him for anything. I'm just offended at how clear-cut he thinks his solutions are. He refuses to even acknowledge that not everything is so rigid, so defined. I'm offended at what he's said about Islam, not because it's his opinion, but because of how he generalizes. It disgusts me, and I think it displays either ignorance or a lack of respect toward an entire group of people. Or both.

B&W - is God merciful or does he punish?

I believe sin is a human institution. I do believe in right and wrong, but not because the Bible tells me what's right and wrong.

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**** the Lakers!

I completely disagree. You say it's easier to see things in black and white...I say it's easier to slather everything in gray, so that virtually anything can become an exception or opinion. It's real easy to justify evil when evil has no real definition, now isn't it?

You say the greatest achievements in history have grown from gray areas...I say the world's greatest tragedies tend to grow out of special exceptions created by those ambiguities. Example: Oh, no, murder is wrong...but Jews are weak and we need to look after the interest of the entire species, so it's okay to kill them.

As for knowing everything: knowing right and wrong and what you OUGHT to do does not mean you know everything, and it certainly does not mean you have conquered life. As we all know, knowing right and wrong and actually behaving in the right are two very different things.

Well, if you're offended by it, then you DO fault him...make no mistake. And what generalizations are you talking about? Islam does appear to me to be, by definition, an intolerant set of teachings. I could have been misinformed, but that's how it appears.

Well, the morals you possess now, IMO, you were born with. But from a secular, technical standpoint, you do realize that most of the BASE morals you hold are Christian morals, right? Furthermore, can I take that quote to mean that you believe in some sort of God, or Higher Power?

How did it get there, in your opinion?

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Good times, noodle salad.

I'm sorry to interrupt your discussion, but that's ridiculous to me. You are not born with morals. You have to be taught everything. My two-year old niece is now learning her morals (the early everyday human interaction morals -- her religious morals will come later, since my sister and brother-in-law are religious people). She wasn't born with them. What she was born with, and what all of us are both with, are instincts.

And, you don't have to believe in some kind of higher power to know the difference between right and wrong. To me, that's kind of insulting to people who don't believe in a higher power. Are you implying that they don't know the difference between right and wrong? The Bible doesn't have to teach us what's good and what's bad. Sure, I grew up around parents who told me about the Bible and the ten commandments and the whole deal, but it doesn't make any difference. The Bible talks about a lot of immoral acts (considered in today's American society) committed by people who are supposedly doing the right thing.

You can still tell the difference between right and wrong and not believe in a god. It's called obeying the laws and being a civilized human being. The law doesn't care if you believe in god or not. That's a good, free thing we have in this country.

But I am curious... in a trial, do they still make you swear on a bible if you're called to the stand? I would be pissed off big time if someone tried to scare me into being honest by having me touch The Bible. Actually, that's kinda funny too. Why not have a trial where you swear on a cookbook, or Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee's wedding photo album? Same difference. I'd still be honest. You can trust me on that. And I also know the difference between right and wrong! Though, I can't promise you that I'll always make good judgement. But I try.

I completely agree.





It varies from state to state, but most courts do the traditional bible thing. However, you can ask to be sworn in without any religious connection, like a bible or the words, "So help me god."

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One of the biggest myths told is that being intelligent is the absence of the ability to do stupid things.

I think you are. If it were all about being taught, we wouldn't find the moral connections we do throughout people throughout history. Sure, people can be trained against them, but I have NO doubt that a Moral Law is embedded into you.

That makes no sense, logically. It is a FACT that right and wrong are an opinion if there is no power higher than us. If there's no one above us, no one to set the rules, then right and wrong are subjective, and completely illusions, and just words for things we think people "should" do.

What I am saying (not implying), is that unless you believe in something of that sort, you MUST believe (through deductive logic) that right and wrong are opinions and social creations that have no real grounding or meaning. Right .vs. wrong becomes as subjective as chocolate .vs. vanilla.

No, it's not the same. And no, not everyone can trust you on that. Surely you can see that using The Bible in this manner decreases the likelihood of dishonesty, even if only a tiny bit. If you don't believe in it, why should you be "pissed off big time"? Why should you care at all?

This is where you and I disagree. Just because the morals are not handed down by a deity, does not mean that they have no grounding or meaning. They obviously have grounding: experience, teachings, instincts, emotions, mental capacity; those are all basis for morals. And don't you think that you can let people judge for themselves if their own morals have meaning? Someone who doesn't believe in gods might very easily think religious morals have no meaning, just silly beliefs stemming from fairy tales; but the only one who knows if they have meaning or not is you. I think it is a little insulting and unfair judging other people the way you are.

But how is that "meaning"? Meaning is not opinion. It's not tangible. Don't you see that a world without a higher power is a world of meaninglessness? It produces a world where right and wrong might as well be popsicle flavors.

I think my words are being misinterpreted a little: I'm not saying that they're idiots, or that I don't agree with their morals...I'm saying that they might as well be saying "I thought Jurassic Park sucked" when they say "Murdering and slavery are wrong." I am also NOT saying that people without religion will not set up morals to live by. Of course they will! That doesn't make them real, though. Please do not mistake the two...I don't care to count how many times I've pointed these things out only to have someone mistake it for a claim that people without religion murder freely without consequence.

Again, whether they are real or not, or have more significance than an opinion about a movie or not, is not for you to determine, any more than it is for me to determine how real or legiitmate your moral opinions based on what I believe to be a fictional character are.

See, that proves my point; it's not for ANYONE to say which opinions are more serious than others, because that, too, is opinion. Therefore all opinion must be said to have equal value, because there is no constant measure.

But you ARE saying it. You have no more basis for saying that a non-believer's morals have no meaning than a non-believer does saying that your morals have no meaning. My morals have meaning to me and yours have meaning to you.

And how else do you notice these connections? That's why there's school. That's why there's history classes. They teach you. Of course moral laws can eventually be embedded into you, but you were saying we were born with them. I said, no we're not!

Yes, everyone has different opinions on what's right and wrong. I know for sure that the two of us do. I'm saying that there are laws in this society that tells us what's right and what's wrong. Of course, not everybody agrees with those laws. I certainly don't with all of them. But I do agree with things such as don't kill, don't steal, etc. Everyone's got different opinions. That's why these debates here are possible.

I think having to swear yourself on any kind of book is inane. What does it matter? No difference. People will still lie if they want to, even under oath. Maybe you won't, but others will.

I would be pissed off big time because I'd be upset that such a ludicrous tradition is still taking place. A simple, "Please tell the truth," with a smile and a nod would be more courteous, flattering, bold, and impressive. Having to put my hand on a bible just to make me tell the truth, so you think, is righteously funny. It's like holding up a cross to keep me away. I'm not a vampire. I'm human and books can't burn me.

BTW, there's something that would really piss me off big time -- if someone tried to set me on fire to tell the truth. I guess swearing on books is just funny. But I'd still feel upset that someone actually acted silly!

But if we are able to identify that YOU think your morals have meaning (how I don't know, though), and that I think they don't, in this hypothetical world without a God, then why can't the next logical step be taken? If we realize that there is NOTHING but opinion, then why can it not be said that no opinion can be said to be greater than any other? I see no flaw of logic there whatsoever. If opinion is all there is, then there is no this or that. There is ONLY opinion...and hence all I've been saying is true.

Let me put it this way. In my opinion, a very good case could be made that morals based mostly on experience and logic are much more legitimate and meaningful than religious morals, because no one can prove that the mystical and spiritual things in a religion are really true. Do morals based on ideas about THE FORCE have meaning? If I had to hazard an opinion, I'd say no, but if they have meaning for you, I'm willing to accept that, just like I'm willing to accept that your particular religious morals have meaning for you. You don't have a legitimate point when you say your morals have meaning, and non-believers' morals don't. When you can prove that a god exists, then your assertions will have more legitimacy.

How often does your history class explore base morals of older societies? Most I've run into explore more facts and dates. Yes, I am saying we are born with them. I don't think they're embedded into you. At all. I think you or I could be born into an evil society, and we could probably recognize it as evil anyway.

Yes, of course. Opinions. That's what I'm saying.

Well, like I said: you may find it pointless (I don't...it's like a thief who'd rather not enter a Church if he can help it...even if he doesn't believe), but I think it has an effect, and even if it is pointless, it's nothing to be mad over.