Christianity, Religion and Atheism

I'll apologize straight off for my remarks. To me, B & W is coming off as an intolerant, closed-minded jerk. I guess I can't comprehend speaking against a religion, then criticizing followers of that religion for not even worshipping properly. That is what I meant by disgusting.

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John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave us his son so that anyone who believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

A muslim will never, ever, ever say that is true. Muslims believe that Jesus was a good man, a prophet even, but not God's son.

C.S. Lewis says it best.
C.S. Lewis at his best!



I am in the position to talk about Islam.

Well, maybe it you look at it that way. But look at the way it happened: he said that it's an intolerant religion...to which someone replied with something along the lines of "but most Muslims aren't intolerant like that," which of course means that they're not following their religion properly (if you're to assume the first statement is correct). So it's really just deductive logic. If Islamic beliefs ARE intolerant, and we have a person who is not practicing those intolerant beliefs, than that person is not a practicing member of Islam.

Now, of course, the real debate is to whether or not there is any problem with the faith...which is something I'd rather not get into...but if anyone would like to hear an argument as to why it is intolerant, let me know, and I'd be glad to direct you to some interesting audio clips online.

Would they deny that Jesus was God's son? I'm not so sure. I was under the impression that there was more than one school of thought on the issue. But yes, that is Lewis at his best; or nearly so. I am astounded by the idea that Jesus can be considered a normal man who was merely a great teacher; either he was who He said He was, or He was a raving lunatic.

Yes, they would.

What is this based on? I believe there are some Muslims who do indeed believe it. Unless I've been misinformed, naturally. Though even then, I'm hesitant to say much of anything. I think Judgement Day is a hazy thing for those who are not very obviously saved.

The spirit behind Islam is an entirely different spirit... a spirit that denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Any Christian who accepts the notion that Allah is God creates an impossible situation. Since the Qur'an contains our only revelation about Allah, they will be forced to look there as their authority. The Qur'an specifically denies the deity of Christ!

(Deity means that Christ was God's son)

For more information, read "Islamic Invasion" by Robert Morey.

Thank you for the link. I shall look into it further.

As with any religion, there are all kinds of different interpretations. B&W is basing his argument about this on his belief that somehow Islam is an entirely intolerant religion. But many Muslims probably interpret the teachings differently. It's the same with Christianity - why are there so many different denominations of Christians? I don't think anyone here is in any position to say who is worshipping correctly and who isn't, Muslim or Christian. You can have your beliefs, I won't question those, but when you criticize other beliefs because for some reason you don't "get" them, you're being foolish.

Also, link me to those audio clips.

Oh, my mistake. You must be, if you can make disrespectful blanket statements about it.

To paraphrase what someone said earlier: If I go around grouping all Christians with nuts like Jerry Falwell, there'll be people after my head. But apparently it's ok to liken all Muslims to the Islamic extremists. Do I sense a double standard here?

Ah, I see your point now Steve. I don't think B&W is judging Islam through any extremists or terrorists, however, but rather, some basic Islamic teachings...the ones that state, for example, that anyone who is not a Muslim possess no basic right to life. I do think, though, that you are correct in saying that some Muslims certainly have different interpretations of things. I'm not sure how explicit their teachings are...but odds are some of it is indeed open to interpretation.

Here are the audio clips:
http://www.jerrybowyer.com/audio.php?catid=18

The ones that being with "Islam Scholar Joseph Kickasola" are the ones. It's very interesting stuff.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but Catholics are Christians. They aren't Protestants, but they are definately Christians.

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One of the biggest myths told is that being intelligent is the absence of the ability to do stupid things.

Christians are the most persecuted group of people in the world.
You really don't know your stuff mate.

Get out in the real world man, Christians are no better treated than Muslims.
And have you heard the way Muslims treat Christians in the Middle East.

I know someone who converted a muslim to Chritianity, then when the musilm went back to his home country, he told his father, and his father took him to the backyard, picked up and axe and slit his throat.

Muslim law treats conversion to Christianity as the equivalent to murder. You can do no greater harm (according to their law) than converting to Christianity.

Another story from a friend of mine,
He was in Yeman and was talking to a guy about the bible. He offered the guy a bible to take home. The guy thought that would be okay as he said his father was 'pretty liberal'. So he went home, and asked his father. His father told him, "If you bring that book into this house I'll kill you."

These are real stories mate. Don't ever say that Christians have it easy. Do you know how many Brothers and Sisters of Christ have been slaughtered because of communism?

Catholicism is a way of life.
Catholics are not Christians.
Catholics can be Christians but they are not automatically Christian because they are Catholic.

They have to have excepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour and lord of their life, and to have repented to God and being able to because of the authority brought by the death, burial and ressurection of my Lord and Saviour/

This is an integral part of Catholocism. A Catholic who doesn't accept Christ as the savior is disregarded by the general Catholic population and is no longer seen as one. And, I hate to break this to you, but Protestants broke away from Catholocism, in a little thing called the Reformation. To say that Catholics are not Christian just underlines how silly and ignorant some of your statements are. Isn't Christianity a way of life as well?

Neither do you. Whether Christians are the most persecuted has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I do live in the real world - I know a fair amount of Muslims, and they'd be interested to hear a white evangelist tell them what they're doing wrong, and why they follow a faith that is intolerant.

Although it's sort of beside the point, perhaps the Christian should never have tried to convert a Muslim in the first place. Maybe he should have just been tolerant and embraced him as a brother instead of try to change his world.

Individual examples of fanatacism don't lend much to this argument, I don't think. If I mentioned a Christian doing the same thing, you wouldn't acknowledge it because it's just one example of someone who is so set in his beliefs that he feels the need to go nuts. There are cases like that in EVERY religion. As you've illustrated with your previous arguments, some Christians aren't very tolerant either.

Like I said before, all religions are open to many different interpretations, even in what may seem like the most basic rules. Will a Christian go to hell because he notices his neighbor's wife's knockers? Some people say yes, some say no.

Do you know how many peaceful African tribes were either slaughtered or FORCED to convert because of Christianity? Or American Indians? I suggest you read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe.

Christians may or may not have it easy, but it certainly seems like they run things, theologically speaking. Beliefs are forced upon others by all religions, but no Muslims come to my door at 7am asking me to become Mormon instead of Catholic.

A pointless thread?



WE'VE SEEN THIS ALL BEFORE PEOPLE!!
I'll stop posting here, but I do mean that.

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www.esotericrabbit.com

Christianity is not;
Good people go to heaven
Bad people go to hell

You don't know a lot about christianity and that is obvious.



That is not the case. I mean if the Pope says something that is contary to what the bible says, Catholics (most) will believe the Pope. (They won't say that straight out, but this is generally the case.




more, later

Well, I'm not necessarily siding with B&W here, but I felt the need to reply:

Your point is good, but the example is poor, IMO. The Bible is pretty clear on such things.

Well how about you educate me, then? Tell me what I don't know! All you've responded with is "I'm right, you don't know anything," basically. So tell me what I don't know, and actually address what it is I'm saying.

Either you're not talking about the same Catholic religion that I am, or it is obvious that you don't know anything about Catholocism. One of the most basic rules of being a Catholic (which is a denomination of Christianity) is accepting Christ as the savior. The Pope would not be the pope if he said any such thing.

TWT - yeah, I guess that example was pretty poor. But you see what I'm trying to get at?

(excuse the long post)


God’s Offer

1. God’s plan – created by a ‘Holy God’ for a ‘holy purpose’. (Colossians 1:15-23)

2. Our crisis – sinful … missed God’s glorious ideal in life. (Romans 3:23)

3. Results – eternal separation (death) from God. (Romans 6:23 and 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9)

4. Good news from God
- God loves us therefore Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
- Through his death. Jesus restores us to friendship with God and makes us fit for his presence. (Colossians 1:22-23)


Our Response

1. Believe who Jesus is (Lord) and in what He did for us. (Romans 10:9)

2. Turn away from (repent of) a life that is against God’s purposes to a new life of following Jesus. (Acts 2:38)

3. Receive the Lord Jesus Christ into our lives and trusting him to take away our sins and to be our LORD and confess our faith openly in the biblical way. (John 1:12, 1st John 1:9, Romans 10:9)


A Suggested Prayer

· NOTE: While God reads the heart and no action of ours can earn us salvation, it is often helpful to formalize the commitment in a prayer to God.

· To be said by one who really wants to become a Christian.

· To be said thoughtfully, honestly and sincerely to God.


Dear God.

I believe that you created me to know and honour you. I admit that I have done wrong and rebelled against you. Thank you for sending your only Son, Jesus, who died as my substitute. I believe that you brought him back to life again so he could bring me vack into friendship with you. I am now willing to turn away from everything in my life which displeases you. I am now willing to turn away from everything in my life which displeases you. Please forgive all of my sinfulness and make me new inside. Grant me the free gift of eternal life that you promised and send your Holy Spirit to live in me so that I may have the strength to live for you from now on. Because I believe you keep your promises. Thank you for accepting me, thank you for forgiving me, thank you for making me your friend. I pray this all in the authority of Jesus Christ.

Amen.



Everyday, good, honest people die and do not go to heaven because they do not know the above facts. While vile murderers do, because they have seen the error of their ways and how they can receive God's forgiveness.

Don't ever think that the bible says, "Good people go to heaven, Bad people go to hell." or "If you obey the 10 commandments then you'll go to heaven."
The only way is through Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the father, except through me."

That's where we differ. I just can't believe that someone who is a good, honest person will go to hell because he hasn't "accepted" Jesus Christ. You can believe whatever you want, that's fine with me. But your putdown of Islam (and many other religions, now that things are in perspective) leaves your biases in plain view, and I don't like how you act like you're refusing to accept followers of other religions on the same level as yourself. I might be wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting, and it offends me.