Moe

Okay. So you know I have watched a lot of anime in the past couple years. Probably most all of it because of your rants. Maybe someday I can achieve the amount of hours necessary to comment on anime that I have already watched. Yeah you heard me right.

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Letterboxd

Guap, youre not gonna make this sale. Stop! Seriously its like you have this quest spell cast upon you where everyone must see your Moe Manga whatnots point of view.

You presented it well, but it just isnt gonna happen regardless how you present it. Leave it bro'

Boy Im glad I only enjoy three anime shows.. and they are not silly like this stuff that I have seen so far from Guap.. I will stick with my Mushishi, Darker than Black and Hell Girl.. at least Hell Girl is actually aimed at females...

You are right. This is obviously not the right forum for it.

Only a small fraction of the medium is moe. Of the 27 shows I reviewed in my series thread only 1 has some moe elements.

However you shouldn't insult genres you don't know. Especially because I talked about Yotsuba there, a modern classic of manga. Essential reading.

How about taking your own advice not criticizing others... because they disagree with you or have no interest in what you do.

You are talking about stuff you don't know, in other words, being prejudiced as well there. Not having interest is one thing insulting the stuff you don't know is another thing. Sorry for pointing that out.

Clannad is pretty moe by the way.

Also, men's manga just means adult manga in general because very few men read women's manga (its for girls: blearg) but a lot of women read men's manga. Tennager boys manga is widely read by large demographics and its the most popular form of manga overall. Yotsuba is classified as such.

If the whole point of it is being childish, why chafe when someone points out that it's childish?

This really has nothing at all to do with what I'm talking about. Frozen is a hypothetical example--substitute any children's film for it and the point is the same: something is not more or less childish based on its actual audience.

How would you know the difference between something which has sexual elements and something which is supposed to be stimulating? Do you actually think nobody who consumes this finds those elements stimulating?

What I'm hearing from your response is that even though you're mad when people point out that it's both childish and sexual, when questioned you acknowledge that it's both. I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. Daniel asked you some simple questions about what the appeal of this mix of childishness and sexual elements is, and you gave him a non-sequitur, defensive response about pedophilia.

The question was: how much does someone have to watch before you dismiss their opinion this way? As far as I can see, you haven't answered that question. And it's kind of an important question, given how frequently you use the breadth of your viewing as an argumentative trump card.

I don't think there is any forum where you'll receive a friendly, open response to defensive answers or repeatedly telling people they lack the experience to be talked to about something.

Just because something behaves is a childish way it doesn't mean it targets childish persons. For instance, YouTube cat videos don't target cats or people who wish/think they are cats. K-On! Behaves in a brutally "childish" in order to appeal to the cuteness receptors of its adult audience. People have attraction to cute things, its part of evolutionary human instinct and the reason why people have cute pets like cats and puppies. Moe stuff is the same thing but with humans acting like pets.

I talked to a guy in his 30's he said he find cats cuter than babies. In Japan instead of having cats such type of guys would watch moe videos or read moe manga.

Examples of moe anime:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xTYeCmhaxuM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z30Y572EmCk

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lHXkzadukUk

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PBoeoLYH10k

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HqDQYjj9wQw

So you're saying that the reason people view Moe in Japan is similar to people liking cats in the US/UK?

From what I've gathered 'Moe' seems to be something with a dedicated fan base with lots of followers, and content available for people online. I have never seen this type of dedication to cats before, people reading comics about cats, especially grown men looking at loads of pictures of cats.

People like cats in real life generally, I would say, not because they are cute, but because they are a life force, it keeps them company, gives people something to car for.

It's the same principal with your Roosevelt quote I the first post. How is a cute baby comparable to Moe? People smile/laugh when they see a cute baby because they are happy at this human life, the joy of a new person coming into the world and enjoying themselves, remembering happiness in life. I can't see how Moe is comparable to such 'Western' joys in this way.

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Well, if you read or watched some of the stuff I recommended you might get an idea of what I am talking about. Specially Azumanga Daioh (TV and manga) and Yotsuba (manga).

Huh? Nothing he just said would be even theoretically answered by watching this stuff. He's taking issue with your suggestion that being being a fan of Moe is similar to watching cat videos. People watch cat videos largely as short-term diversions. They (everyone, but men in particular) don't usually buy cat merchandise, wear cat t-shirts, or pay for DVDs of cat video compilations.

Yoda, please, this is rather nonsensical. In fact, this has been a quite nonsensical discussion in many ways. If you understand the culture you understand what I mean, its not like someone who has no experience with the whole thing can expect me to explain everything in a forum post.

There are also books available about the topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Moe-Manifesto-...ords=moe+manga

Though the author uses the word in a slightly different way than the meaning I used here. People who are into it understoof wheb I talked about it I n an appropriate forum. But anyway, this is clearly a waste of my time now.

Sorry, but I think it's your responses that are nonsensical: you're being asked simple, general questions about Moe that should not require any special knowledge to understand the answers to. What's more, most of these questions are based on your own descriptions of it (and analogies about it), so to condemn the questions as somehow lacking in understanding is to condemn your own accounting of them.

And to say that nobody can understand these things without first being "into" them is little more than a deflection, because it automatically precludes any outside criticism or questioning.

I just keep visiting this thread to see Yoda laying the intellectual smackdown at this point. It's amusing!

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"You, me, everyone...we are all made of star stuff." - Neil Degrasse Tyson

https://shawnsmovienight.blogspot.com/

Something being classified as "adult" doesn't automatically make it "profound".

Movies like American Pie and Saw films are "for adults" too - but they're not profound. There's nothing "wrong" with a person enjoying those films, but I agree that Guap seems like he's trying too hard to elevate all the animes that he likes as profound or underappreciated with the notion that "you have to be an anime fan to understand" - and no the adult animes I've seen are deeper than those films I mentioned; I'm just illustrating the point that being labeled "for adults" doesn't make it profound - often it just means the content is too explicit for kids.

My personal opinion is that animation in general falls way more into the realm of popcorn entertainment rather than serious art - for example I've heard a lot of praise about the Metal Gear Solid games' plot (which basically is one big anime movie) - however after reading over the entire plot of the series in detail, it's definitely more in the realms of a comic book or action movie than a serious drama, and it was basically made up as the creators went along - falling into the realm of TV shows like "Lost".

While it's definitely good and well produced for a game or an anime, it's just not up there with movies and TV shows like Breaking Bad or the Godfather trilogy.

It just annoys me when people try to argue that comic books (Japanese or American) or popcorn entertainment (Star Wars being an example) is super profound when it's really not in comparison, even the "adult stuff" - I like a lot of cheesy movies with are far from profound but I don't try to argue that it is, I just acknowledge that it's popcorn entertainment and move on rather than getting angry at anyone who dares criticize or contrast it.

I myself agree based on the anime I've seen that a lot of it is definitely more 'mature' than American animation, but even the ones which are declared the best of the lot really lean more toward the 'popcorn' side of the camp than Oscar worthy side (and no I'm not talking about "mainstream" shows in the US like Pokemon - I'm thinking more like Neon Genesis Evangelion and other "serious" animes"); if someone can't accept this opinion without becoming personally offended or writing essays dedicated to criticizing it, that shows way too much emotional investment in one's taste of movies IMO.

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(Now I predict that Guap will say Neon Genesis is just "mainstream corporate crap" or something and that I have to watch a ton of indie anime in order to appreciate it).

Also I agree with Yoda (even though he'll probably find some way to argue with me anyway) - I think the notion that you have to be heavily into anime in order to evaluate it is wrong, because a lot of the general critical points about movies are just as applicable to it as they are to anything else. It'd be like saying you "have to be exclusively into gangster movies" to give an opinion on Scarface - I disagree; that sounds too much like an 'argument from authority.

And not to stereotype, but the mere fact that a thread discussion on a single anime show somehow diverted into a tangent about pedophilia definitely gives support to one of my big criticisms with Japanese animation.

What's so eerie to me is just how similar that rationale about "appreciating" cute young girls sounds to this:

Hi guys, how are you doing. I should be watching a movie but this thread was too entertaining to read

First. The definition of moe... it's not clear. Actually, it's very difficult to grasp even for fans, because it is not something concrete and clearly or inequivocally associated to a trend or genre. It is more of a feeling, and the attempts to actively ellicit it (and, by the way, not exclusive to schoolgirls or even female characters). And which kind of? Well, think of it as what you feel whenever you search kitty gifs on Google. It's cuteness, but a pure and unadulterated one. That is, cute for the sake of being cute. If you were asking for the reason why K-On! is classified for adults instead of kids, here it is: kids do not engage in cuteness just because it's cute. Kids shows may be cute, but their appeal for the audience is different: it's flashy, it makes them laugh, it has action, you name it. K-On! is more of a "feel good" show in the general sense; it is all about cuteness, not only in appearance but in interactions and mood.

Just like kitty gifs, moe is not inherently sexualized, but that however doesn't mean that sexualization is immediately disallowed. Moe is an element that does not exclude others. And schoolgirls is a particularly risky matter because there's a lot of fetish involving schoolgirl scenario, so even if the show itself does not try to ellicit an erotic response in purpose, there will always be somebody who interprets the show as that. If we are talking about intent, however, this is not necessarily what the show actively looks for. This is relevant because I'm reading that part of this discussion is pivoting around the idea that some people may find sexual appeal in these drawings...Which I find completely irrelevant to the topic. Some people may find sexual appeal in Disney princesses as well.

Regarding the examples brought by Guaporense, a few considerations...

-Azumanga Daioh is more of a comedy than anything else; the interactions are mainly there for delivering jokes than for being cute, and cuteness is more of a general mood thing. Sexualization in this show is virtually non-existant... only as a topic that is talked about in casual conversations. The characters are always drawn in a plain and asexual way.

-K-On!, which was originally published for adult males, gained a female fanbase with its anime adaptation. I don't know the exact reasons but apparently it is because the content is less "objectionable"; in the K-On! manga there seems to be some kind of sexualization to the characters that is lost in the adaptation in favor of a cutesy mood.

-Yotsuba is a manga classified for adult males, but I believe it has an appeal for generally any adult reader; kids and teens can enjoy it, but it's clearly not intended for them. It's very contemplative and self-aware, and makes use of the innocent perspective of a kid to make satirical observations about the daily life of Japanese societies.

They are quite substantially different, at least the versions I've watched/read, and these differences mostly stem from their style of comedy, which is either the driving force or an important and defining element. There is, however, moe associated to other genres or narratives, just like the Clannad franchise which is drama almost in its entirety.

I don't understand the constant attempts to elevate a paraphilia into an "art form", using overly lengthy diatribes to give the illusion of substance.

By the same standard all the risque content in B movies like "Charlie's Angels" could be pretentiously described as art, but at least even in films like that the women are of legal ages.

This is just an attempt to justify degeneracy by claiming you have to "be a part" of the culture to understand; what's really ironic though is when people alternate between claiming certain anime shows are profound or Oscar worthy, while simultaneously apologizing for the themes of sexual exploitation of young girls which are thrown in just to market it to the lowest common denominator. Just... stop already. Just because it's a (bad) part of "Japanese culture" doesn't make it desirable, anymore than racist animations of black people in the culture of the Jim Crow area South is.