Who will take on Obama in 2012?

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If all the world consumed as much and in the same way as the average Swede, we would need three planet earths for the resources to be enough for everybody. Switch "Swede" for "American" and we would need even more resources. Growth is always created at someone else's expense; someone in another part of the world or members of future generations.
Nooooo. No no no no no. A million times no.

Growth is always created by innovation, not by mere transfer. The overall standard of living has gone up over time. Some places faster than others, but that is a function of many things, mostly whether or not they embrace economic freedom (as well as other types of freedom, of course).

Sadly, this idea is not new. Every now and then someone like Thomas Malthus (who was the inspiration for Ebeneezer Scrooge, by the way) or Paul Ehrlich, makes the simple mistake of thinking that we cannot go on the way we have. And they always use the same misguided logic: we're just going to grow and grow, and we can't support more people or more things. Usually they invoke the spectre of overpopulation. The thing is: they've always been horrendously, terribly wrong. Nothing Malthus wrote about came even close to coming true. Ehrlich wrote his book, The Population Bomb in 1968, and was dead-wrong in all his predictions then, as well.

Ehrlich's failings even come with a very satisfying exclamation point, because a professor named Julian Simon challenged him to a wager to test his theories. He said that he could pick any raw material he wanted and he would wager with him that the price of it would go DOWN over time, rather than UP, as Ehrlich predicted based on his theory about growth and eventual scarcity. Ehrlich picked five materials and set the deadline a decade later. When the deadline came, ALL five had gone down, just as Simon had predicted, and Ehrlich paid up. It was a completely definitive rebuke.

So, why have such predictions always been wrong? It's actually pretty simple: the naysayers always forget that human beings do not just consume, they also produce. They innovate. Right now, we use way, way more energy than we ever have. Someone 200 years ago could have used the same sort of analogy you just did, to explain how many planet earths we would need if we doubled our population. Well, we have, and we're still on just the one earth. The reason is that these sorts of doomsday estimates always assume a steady rate of resource consumption. They always forget that, with each passing generation, we use energy more efficiently, and find new sources of it. This has always been true.

The idea that there is some finite amount of wealth that we simply devour over time does not hold together any way you care to analyze it. It does not work in theory, and it has never been true in practice.



I'll prove it when he doesn't get the nomination.
Not really. You can predict it'll rain 39 days from now and, if it does, it won't mean you actually knew it. The odds are obviously against any ONE candidate winning, so predicting that exactly one of them will not isn't even a particularly bold prediction.

You can call it ramblings, but after I made these comments much of it I found are observations made by others on the web.
Er, unless you think people on the web don't rant and ramble, I'm not sure what this proves.

I am amazed you cannot see the difference between Obama's situation and also McCain's to Perry's. McCain separated himself from the guy, just one, and Perry has a whole bunch of them he embraces publicly. That is a big difference. Obama said about the minister he never heard him make those comments and got out of the church when he made comments during the election. Ayers who as far as I am concerned should have received a life sentence quietly entered 1 the mainstream and was not close to Obama in any way.
1) How has Perry "embraced" them beyond just BEING at this event and praying in the same room as them? This is where language becomes important. People use vague words like "is connected to" or "embraces" without explaining what it actually means. Usually because, when they do, it seems a lot less sinister.

2) Obama speaks very carefully. Not "hearing" him make those statements is not the same thing as not knowing about them. The idea that he was unaware of them is implausible. And it's moot, anyway, because he was made very aware of them when he ran for President, and said he could not disown him. And then bowed to political pressure. So this explanation doesn't explain anything.

3) Doesn't your last sentence create a ton of cognitive dissonance? In the same sentence, you simultaneously say that a domestic terrorist should have been in prison for LIFE and that it doesn't matter that Obama held a fundraiser in his house.


Perry's problem is this: Obama never evoked the hated rhetoric of his minister, Perry has made troubling comments of his own like talking about Texas succession and openly supports a boatload of right wing nuts who talk about gays were responsible for the Holocaust and support laws in other countries for executing them because of their sexual preference and a whole bunch of other horrible things.
Yeah, we've been over the secession thing, so I'll refer you to my previous response there. And the end of this quote completely contradicts the beginning. You say that Obama is different than Perry because Obama never "evoked" the kinds of things his minister did. But in trying to contrast this with Perry, you mention the exact same thing: something the ministers around Perry said, but that he didn't. You make a distinction in the first sentence and then completely fail to support it after.



Here is exactly what I was responding to and I didn't change the subject at all. it was a direct a respponse to your comments and there are no obvious discussion of ecconomic theory in them:
Nope. You mentioned it first, in this post. I said that deficits can be better or worse depending on what they're spent on, and the actual amount being spent. You immediately launched into a speech about Iraq, and in doing so half-ignored one of the points I was making about deficits, and completely ignored the other.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Nope. You mentioned it first, in this post. I said that deficits can be better or worse depending on what they're spent on, and the actual amount being spent. You immediately launched into a speech about Iraq, and in doing so half-ignored one of the points I was making about deficits, and completely ignored the other.
I still didn't change the subject because 1) my direct response was to comments you made in that post and 2) even the post you cited was a response to your comment that stimulus money was unecessary and my responding Bush money that mushroomed debt went to finance a war. The discussion had long strayed from any meaningful discussion of ecconomic theory, if it ever actually had, into what different Presidents spent a bunch of money on.
__________________
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1) Your response still operates under the assumption that the Iraq war has no benefit. I think even the war's most ardent critics would call that speculative hyperbole. And the overwhelming majority of the argument since has had little to do with that, and almost everything to do with ancillary criticisms that stray further and further from the basic point of contention.

2) It still doesn't address the difference of size, which is more than enough to make my point.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Just a modern-day Malthus, I'm afraid. But I'll watch his TED talk on checking growth if you agree to read some Henry Hazlitt. Whaddya say? His stuff is freely available only and written simply and concisely for both the expert and laymen alike.
Influenced by Herbert Spencer? Influenced Milton Friedman? Yeah, I'm sure I'll love him.
__________________
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



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Semper Fooey
1) Your response still operates under the assumption that the Iraq war has no benefit. I think even the war's most ardent critics would call that speculative hyperbole. And the overwhelming majority of the argument since has had little to do with that, and almost everything to do with ancillary criticisms that stray further and further from the basic point of contention.

2) It still doesn't address the difference of size, which is more than enough to make my point.
Point: Clinton left a surplus, Bush cut taxes, which ended the surplus, introduced a Medicare prescription plan that cost much money, and Republicans in Congress were sending Bush budgets, which he signed, with more spending than he asked for stuffed with pork, and more earmarks than when Democrats controlled Congress, and was running up a major deficit before 911 so he and Republicans were already not being fiscally prudent. If Republicans are running up deficits when they control government, and large ones, it hardly makes them credible that they only become indignant when Democrats are doing it. The larger spending from Obama was a reaction to an economic crisis that began at the end of Bush's term and was an effort to correct it. Was it oversold? Probably. Was it completely ineffectual? Despite what you think, no. At least none of the stimulus money went to a bridge that went to nowhere.

I never said the Iraq War had no benefit, but it wasn't worth the money it cost, a good portion of which was lost or stolen, and the American lives it cost. I am glad SH and his evil sons are dead, but I really don't care if the Iraqis have democratic government or not. They never fought for it the way Libyans and Syrians are now doing, and Egypt did earlier. Their government is still largely dysfunctional and shows signs of oppression and power struggles and sectarian violence flaring up again. I doubt if we have made any friends there and after we have left they will be in Iran's pocket. The Bush Administration miscalculated. The real threat to us in that region then and now is Iran, but because there was a mild tilt to democratic change at the time the neocons thought Iran was reforming itself and went after Hussein. Now we have a scary nut running things there who won the last election by stuffing the ballot box.. They are going to build a real weapon of mass destruction, a nuclear bomb, that will be a real threat to the Middle East and especially to Israel. If we were going to invade a Middle Eastern country it should have been Iran and now it is too late.



Point: Clinton left a surplus, Bush cut taxes, which ended the surplus, introduced a Medicare prescription plan that cost much money, and Republicans in Congress were sending Bush budgets, which he signed, with more spending than he asked for stuffed with pork, and more earmarks than when Democrats controlled Congress, and was running up a major deficit before 911 so he and Republicans were already not being fiscally prudent. If Republicans are running up deficits when they control government, and large ones, it hardly makes them credible that they only become indignant when Democrats are doing it. The larger spending from Obama was a reaction to an economic crisis that began at the end of Bush's term and was an effort to correct it.
He wasn't running a "major deficit" before 9/11; it was less than one-tenth what it is now up through 9/11.

I'd be curious as to your source for the claim that it had "more earmarks than when Democrats controlled Congress," and what time periods you're even comparing. Not that earmarks are the mark of fiscal prudency, anyway, they're usually a small piece of the pie, if a more egregious, wasteful one. And as I said, a lot of conservatives hate the prescription drug plan. It's a pretty bizarre way to criticize Bush, given that it's an example of a Republican acting like a Democrat.

Re: "it hardly makes them credible that they only become indignant when Democrats are doing it." If this is your argument, it works against Democrats as much as for them, because they killed Bush for his deficits. Like, all the time. And they were a half or a third of what they are now.

But, again, for like the twentieth time: we're talking about way, way more money for a completely different purpose. There is absolutely nothing hypocritical about having more problem with a much larger deficit, let alone with having a problem with a deficit spent on one thing versus another, let alone both.

Was it oversold? Probably. Was it completely ineffectual? Despite what you think, no. At least none of the stimulus money went to a bridge that went to nowhere.
I don't know if it was "completely" ineffectual in that it accomplished literally nothing, but it did accomplish almost literally none of its goals, even going backwards compared to them. You keep using nice words like "oversold" to describe it, but that's spin. Here's my response one of the earlier times you described it that way:

"Saying Obama "oversold" the stimulus is tremendously kind. It failed. It was supposed to do something, and it didn't do it. Not only did it not do it, but it allowed the thing it was supposed to prevent, for longer than it was supposed to have persisted without it. Obama would have "oversold" the stimulus if it had led to some significant improvement, but not quite what he had suggested. That's not what happened. It did not even begin to approach its purpose. That cannot be spun into a mere rhetorical overreach: it shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the effects the stimulus would have. It's not a rounding error, an oversell, or just a tiny bit to optimistic. It was dead wrong."

It feels like half my posts now are just going back and digging up my last response the last time you said something.

I never said the Iraq War had no benefit, but it wasn't worth the money it cost, a good portion of which was lost or stolen, and the American lives it cost. I am glad SH and his evil sons are dead, but I really don't care if the Iraqis have democratic government or not.
...and we're done on this topic. If you ascribe no value to this, then we have zero common ground on the topic, and on many other geopolitical issues, I'm afraid.



Influenced by Herbert Spencer? Influenced Milton Friedman? Yeah, I'm sure I'll love him.
Oh, I'm sure you won't. What would be interesting, however, is not whether you love him, but whether or not you can refute him. Because his logic is very straightforward, and he's got a way better track record than the Malthuses and the Ehrlichs of the world, who trot out the same old flawed logic about growth and unsustainability every handful of generations, regardless of how terrible such predictions fared the last time around. Sometimes it's little more than misanthropy masquerading as analysis.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Quote:
Originally Posted by will.15
Point: Clinton left a surplus, Bush cut taxes, which ended the surplus, introduced a Medicare prescription plan that cost much money, and Republicans in Congress were sending Bush budgets, which he signed, with more spending than he asked for stuffed with pork, and more earmarks than when Democrats controlled Congress, and was running up a major deficit before 911 so he and Republicans were already not being fiscally prudent. If Republicans are running up deficits when they control government, and large ones, it hardly makes them credible that they only become indignant when Democrats are doing it. The larger spending from Obama was a reaction to an economic crisis that began at the end of Bush's term and was an effort to correct it.

He wasn't running a "major deficit" before 9/11; it was less than one-tenth what it is now up through 9/11.

I'd be curious as to your source for the claim that it had "more earmarks than when Democrats controlled Congress," and what time periods you're even comparing. Not that earmarks are the mark of fiscal prudence, anyway, they're usually a small piece of the pie, if a more egregious, wasteful one. And as I said, a lot of conservatives hate the prescription drug plan. It's a pretty bizarre way to criticize Bush, given that it's an example of a Republican acting like a Democrat.

Re: "it hardly makes them credible that they only become indignant when Democrats are doing it." If this is your argument, it works against Democrats as much as for them, because they killed Bush for his deficits. Like, all the time. And they were a half or a third of what they are now.

Yes, that is my point both parties are hypocrites, but the Republicans under Bush proved to be the bigger phonies because they are according to them the party of fiscal restraint. And the Bush deficit before 911 was still a big deficit and you keep glossing over the fact we had a surplus when he entered the White House and that was from his Democrat successor. And where was the attempt by Republicans to balance the budget, which they say they want before 911, and when they controlled Congress and the executive branch prior to 911? What do they do? Pass budgets with more spending than Bush asked for and they kept doing that after 911 as well. Bush and Republicans put us on this road we are on now and to keep harping on, hey, Obama's deficit was worse makes you seem petty partisan, not me. I got news for you. I didn't support the prescription plan ,not just Bush's private market version, but even the idea. So if your real argument deficits under Republicans are better because they spend it on defense spending and law enforcement and wars and even private market focused entilement expansion instead of on traditional entitlement programs, I am not impressed. I also never supported the National Health Care Plan and will be happy when the Supreme Court throws it out, so I am not defending or happy with everything Obama and Democrats does. But from their standpoint they were right to push it through. Obama campaigned on it and he won. That is what Presidents do. Try to pass legislation they campaigned on, even though voters often turn when proposals that were talked about in a campaign become close to a reality, as Bush discovered when his Social Security Plan, which he did talk about, went down to defeat. And Bush narrowly won so the mandate he said he had was always dubious. But Obama won big and could assume, even if it proved to be later wrong, that he had a wider mandate. If he didn't pass something he talked about so much he would have looked weak. That is the problem for both parties. The public supports change until change comes. They want a national health plan until they have one. They want balanced budgets until they see what has to be cut to achieve one.

But, again, for like the twentieth time: we're talking about way, way more money for a completely different purpose. There is absolutely nothing hypocritical about having more problem with a much larger deficit, let alone with having a problem with a deficit spent on one thing versus another, let alone both.




Quote:
Originally Posted by will.15
Was it oversold? Probably. Was it completely ineffectual? Despite what you think, no. At least none of the stimulus money went to a bridge that went to nowhere.

I don't know if it was "completely" ineffectual in that it accomplished literally nothing, but it did accomplish almost literally none of its goals, even going backwards compared to them. You keep using nice words like "oversold" to describe it, but that's spin. Here's my response one of the earlier times you described it that way:

"Saying Obama "oversold" the stimulus is tremendously kind. It failed. It was supposed to do something, and it didn't do it. Not only did it not do it, but it allowed the thing it was supposed to prevent, for longer than it was supposed to have persisted without it. Obama would have "oversold" the stimulus if it had led to some significant improvement, but not quite what he had suggested. That's not what happened. It did not even begin to approach its purpose. That cannot be spun into a mere rhetorical overreach: it shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the effects the stimulus would have. It's not a rounding error, an oversell, or just a tiny bit to optimistic. It was dead wrong."

It feels like half my posts now are just going back and digging up my last response the last time you said something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by will.15
I never said the Iraq War had no benefit, but it wasn't worth the money it cost, a good portion of which was lost or stolen, and the American lives it cost. I am glad SH and his evil sons are dead, but I really don't care if the Iraqis have democratic government or not.

...and we're done on this topic. If you ascribe no value to this, then we have zero common ground on the topic, and on many other geopolitical issues, I'm afraid



My response:
The issue isn't freedom for Iraqis to be in an elected government. Why should that matter to me or any American? Why should we go to war for that? We certainly would never have gone to war in Egypt where they also were not free, but where the dictator was less brutal and also friendly to us. It looks like Egypt now that they have freedom may elect another religious government hostile to us so from our standpoint we would have been better off if Mubarak was still in power. The only value for that war in Iraq is not "freedom" for Iraqis, but that an extremely brutal, unpredictable dictator was removed. But in this world the price of war is so high we should only fight the wars we absolutely have to and that one didn't meet the price tag. Freedom for Iraqis to kill each other in sectarian violence and ally themselves with our enemy Iran, I give that zero.



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Semper Fooey
He wasn't running a "major deficit" before 9/11; it was less than one-tenth what it is now up through 9/11.

I'd be curious as to your source for the claim that it had "more earmarks than when Democrats controlled Congress," and what time periods you're even comparing.
I can't find on the web exact numbers, but it was widely reported at the time earmark spending was way up under rRepublicans compare to Democrats. And here is a conservative saying the same thing:

Wasteful spending and earmarks expanded dramatically under Bush II and the Republican majority. The Bush tax cuts pulled the economy out of recession, but government spending and debt increased to historic levels. The number of Americans who were dependent on some government service reached the highest level in history. I began to question if President Bush and the Republican leadership shared my sense of urgency to stop America's slide toward socialism.
Source: Saving Freedom, by Jim DeMint, p. 23-24 Jul 4, 2009



I am having a nervous breakdance
Nooooo. No no no no no. A million times no.

Growth is always created by innovation, not by mere transfer. The overall standard of living has gone up over time. Some places faster than others, but that is a function of many things, mostly whether or not they embrace economic freedom (as well as other types of freedom, of course).
The overall standard of living has gone up because the standard of living in China and India has gone up, countries where the middle class has expanded explosively. Take them out of the equation and you will see that the standard of living has not gone up as much in the rest of the undeveloped world.

Many countries in Africa, for instance, have enormous natural resources - the richest in the world - and still these countries are the most poor, the most unequal, the most un-free, the most corrupted and the most over-exploited countries in the world. How can this be? It's not as their natural resources are left untouched. These countries are so poor because their wealth is sucked out of their country and goes into enormous economies in North America, the EU, China and India. These African countries are staying poor in order for economies in the industrial world to prosper.

The tax revenue in countries like Nigeria, Republic of Congo and Angola is about 6 % of their GDP. With enormous resources like that (diamonds, metals, gold, minerals, oil) and with almost no taxes, the economy should be blooming, using your logic that low taxes equals more money to invest. But it's not. In fact, these economies are almost not growing at all. There is no economic growth in that part of the world because the growth is taking place elsewhere in other expanding economies.

Before they embrace economic freedom they need democracy and a chance to develop without their land being plundered by the industrial world.

Sadly, this idea is not new. Every now and then someone like Thomas Malthus (who was the inspiration for Ebeneezer Scrooge, by the way) or Paul Ehrlich, makes the simple mistake of thinking that we cannot go on the way we have. And they always use the same misguided logic: we're just going to grow and grow, and we can't support more people or more things. Usually they invoke the spectre of overpopulation. The thing is: they've always been horrendously, terribly wrong. Nothing Malthus wrote about came even close to coming true. Ehrlich wrote his book, The Population Bomb in 1968, and was dead-wrong in all his predictions then, as well.
Tim Jackson dismisses Malthus entirely. Basically because Malthus made his calculations and predictions based on the facts he had in the 18th century (interesting that you are choosing such an old and, apparently, out dated scholar to prove me wrong). Malthus didn't realize the importance and potential of the technical evolution and that it actually slowed the population growth down. Today we can see that the overall resource consumption is growing faster than the overall population growth. In fact, the energy intensity, how much energy it takes to produce the total global economy, has sunk to 33 % of what it was in 1970. We are extracting more from the resources. This might lead you to believe that we are being more responsible in how we use our resources. We're not. The carbon dioxide emissions have increased with 80 % since 1970 and with 40 % since 1990. Since 2000 they are increasing with 3 % every year. Which is the wrong direction to go according to many, including myself and the IPCC.

[EDIT]This implies that even though some of us are trying to reduce the impact we have on nature and climate change, the carbon dioxide emissions - caused by the use of unsustainable energy and materials - are increasing, when logically, they should go down. Again this illustrates how the blind faith in economies that are constantly expanding are leading us into a dead end. We are creating ways to extract more energy from less raw material, we are taking measures of precaution to reduce our effect on nature, and still we're causing more, not less, damage. For sustainable economies to be a reality, not an utopy, we need to slow down our outtake and our tireless endeavour for constant economic growth. To put it simple, when measuring the prosperity or the sustainability of an economy, we have to take other factors than just economic growth (GDP) into consideration. This applies for the rich countries in the industrial world, of course. I'm obviously not denying that economic growth is necessary in poor, undeveloped countries where material standards are a small fraction of what you and I enjoy every day.

(Of course, these arguments presupposes an understanding and at least some belief in that there is such a thing called "climate change", and I know that some American conservatives dismisses it as a hoax altogether).

I don't know about Ehrlich and you are not specifying exactly what it is that he's wrong about so I can't say anything about it.

Ehrlich's failings even come with a very satisfying exclamation point, because a professor named Julian Simon challenged him to a wager to test his theories. He said that he could pick any raw material he wanted and he would wager with him that the price of it would go DOWN over time, rather than UP, as Ehrlich predicted based on his theory about growth and eventual scarcity. Ehrlich picked five materials and set the deadline a decade later. When the deadline came, ALL five had gone down, just as Simon had predicted, and Ehrlich paid up. It was a completely definitive rebuke.
[EDIT]Tim Jackson doesn't deny that the price of raw materials has gone down. It's actually not that strange. Since we have sophisticated the methods by which we locate and extract the raw materials from nature, but the material in itself is the same (raw zinc is still raw zinc), the prices must go down simply because it's easier to get the material than before - even though the supplies of raw materials are decreasing. With a purist capitalist logic, that doesn't take in consideration how much material we actually have left or how much damage the process causes in nature or for the people living in the countries with the resources, but only taking in consideration how much new capital you can create with the capital you already possess, the prices must go down. The irony of it, though, is that the "supply and demand" principle still applies. The illusion that the laissez-faire capitalists are trying to make us believe in, though, is that the supply is never-ending which motivates lower prices on raw materials, when the supply is actually very much a limited resource. If we took these factors into consideration, and the people who live in the countries with the natural resources actually were paid decent wages and nationalized their mines and refineries, the prices would definitely go up and we would have to start paying the price for our over consumption. Which would lead to less consumption, and less damage to the ecological system, which is the fundamental source for our livelihood.

So, why have such predictions always been wrong? It's actually pretty simple: the naysayers always forget that human beings do not just consume, they also produce. They innovate. Right now, we use way, way more energy than we ever have. Someone 200 years ago could have used the same sort of analogy you just did, to explain how many planet earths we would need if we doubled our population. Well, we have, and we're still on just the one earth. The reason is that these sorts of doomsday estimates always assume a steady rate of resource consumption. They always forget that, with each passing generation, we use energy more efficiently, and find new sources of it. This has always been true.
There's a book by Alf Hornborg called Myten om maskinen in Swedish. I think it's called The Myth of the Machine or The Power of the Machine in English. I haven't read it yet, but the main thesis is that it's a myth that machines and technical innovations inevitably leads to reduced outtake from our natural resources. What Hornborg basically is saying is that the time, money and energy that you save when you develop a new machine to do something quicker, cheaper and with less energy is used up by far during the process of developing and constructing the new machine. The fact that the new machine is doing the job of the old machine cheaper and faster is creating the illusion that this also means that it saves energy and resources.

[EDIT] To clarify: Producing new machines does not necessarily lower the raw material and energy consumption. On the contrary, it's the other way around. Because of what I said earlier about a faster growth of natural resources outtake compared to the lowered degree of energy intensity, we are making more machines than before to do a lesser amount of work than before. We are creating smarter machines in a dumb way. Very dumb.

The idea that there is some finite amount of wealth that we simply devour over time does not hold together any way you care to analyze it. It does not work in theory, and it has never been true in practice.
That's not what I said. You're talking about redistribution of wealth. I'm talking about using up the resources that we need for producing wealth to be distributed. I'm saying that this process is escalating, i.e. we are using up the resources faster and faster - and it's creating economic growth for the already rich while the countries that possess the natural wealth are not getting any piece from the cake.



I can't find on the web exact numbers, but it was widely reported at the time earmark spending was way up under rRepublicans compare to Democrats.
1) The news is owned by the Democrats, of course that would be "true"

2) You're a complete fool if you think one does it more than the other, neither party cares.



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Semper Fooey
Ain't no doubt he is running now, but he has already killed his chances for the nomination with that prayer to God he should be President (that is what it was) to save America organized by a boatload of far right crazies, not one or two, that he has not renounced, which is what McCain and Obama did with one person. He is in bed with an entire organization of nuts. I can't believe Perry if he wanted to be President could be that stupid. He should have at the very least quietly distanced himself from the organization and hope it didn't become a controversy, but he does the exact opposite. Now it is no longer clear he can even win Iowa, if Pawlenty and Bachmann actually make it an issue. They may not. But this group has people who are even out of the mainstream of the Tea Party. It will certainly be lethal ammunition against his candidacy Romney will use in later primaries if Perry is still around.


Philip Elliott
AP
DES MOINES, Iowa -A day after his likely rivals compete in an Iowa straw poll, Texas Gov. Rick Perry is set to speak in this lead-off caucus state as he considers a White House bid of his own.

A Republican official familiar with Perry's plans said Tuesday that he will speak to Sunday's Black Hawk County Republicans' fundraising dinner in Waterloo. It will be his first visit to Iowa as a potential presidential contender.

The official disclosed Perry's plans on the condition of anonymity because the official was not authorized to announce them.

As his likely rivals compete on Saturday in Ames' straw poll, Perry will speak in South Carolina, which has the first Southern primary. Perry has not officially joined the race



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Semper Fooey
1) The news is owned by the Democrats, of course that would be "true"

2) You're a complete fool if you think one does it more than the other, neither party cares.
The news is not owned by the Democrats nor do they control facts. They sure don't own Fox news.

I am not a complete fool. I know neither party really cares about earmarks. Neither party really cares about balanced budgets either. What they care about is getting rid of spending they don't like so they can spend even more money on what they do like.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Oh, I'm sure you won't. What would be interesting, however, is not whether you love him, but whether or not you can refute him. Because his logic is very straightforward, and he's got a way better track record than the Malthuses and the Ehrlichs of the world, who trot out the same old flawed logic about growth and unsustainability every handful of generations, regardless of how terrible such predictions fared the last time around. Sometimes it's little more than misanthropy masquerading as analysis.
Is he a darwinist like Spencer?



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Semper Fooey
I have been looking at youtube clips of Bryan Fischer whose organization paid for Perry's religious rally and who spoke there, and he makes Jeremiah Wright look like Walter Cronkite. He is completely insane. To say associating yourself closely to someone like that is the equivalent of Obama being in Wright's Church, whose controversial comments were much milder in comparison and much more sporadic is absurd. This hatemonger says the first amendment only applies to Christians and specifically says it doesn't apply to Buddhists and Muslims, and by implication must also mean Jews who are not Christians either, says Muslims should be banned from building mosques in the United States, says not only should Muslims be barred from entering the United States but those already here should be deported, says homosexuals today are literally Nazis (he is the real Nazi) and that they were responsible for Hitler's rise to power. He is one of the most despicable characters I have ever heard and this is who Perry allows to organize his blatantly political phony religious rally. Rick Perry will never be President and will not get the nomination. Yes, Bachmann and Pawlenty have appeared on this lunatic's program to be interviewed by him, but it is Perry with the very close connection to this madman and other nuts as well.



Several replies coming when I get home in a little bit. But for now, replying to Piddzilla: don't mind you editing it, but it'd be helpful if you gave me a bit of a heads-up if you think you're going to, because I'd already written up a reply and some of the things you added change quite a bit of it.



Yes, that is my point both parties are hypocrites, but the Republicans under Bush proved to be the bigger phonies because they are according to them the party of fiscal restraint. And the Bush deficit before 911 was still a big deficit and you keep glossing over the fact we had a surplus when he entered the White House and that was from his Democrat successor. And where was the attempt by Republicans to balance the budget, which they say they want before 911, and when they controlled Congress and the executive branch prior to 911? What do they do? Pass budgets with more spending than Bush asked for and they kept doing that after 911 as well. Bush and Republicans put us on this road we are on now and to keep harping on
You've said something like this before; "got the ball rolling" or "put us on this road." And I keep pointing out that it means nothing. Bush's decisions do not contain financial magnetism that pulls itself forward or forces people to continue it, or triple it in size, or anything of the sort. The fact that someone ran a $400 billion deficit in no way, shape, or form, puts us on a "road" that inevitably leads to a $1.6 trillion deficit.

hey, Obama's deficit was worse makes you seem petty partisan, not me.
Er, I think it makes me seem like I understand what numbers mean. The deficits now are much higher than they were under Bush. Higher even than the ones he left with, and way higher than the ones through most of his term. If being able to count is partisan, so be it.

So if your real argument deficits under Republicans are better because they spend it on defense spending and law enforcement and wars and even private market focused entilement expansion instead of on traditional entitlement programs, I am not impressed
I'm not trying to impress you. My aim, every time I've said such things, is to point out that the charges of hypocriscy don't hold up, because they compare fundamentally different situations. Such charges are based on the idea that it's hypocritical to try to justify one deficit and condemn another. To which I reply: not if the deficit is used for something different that they find more reasonable, and definitely not if the deficits are two dramatically different sizes! Let alone both. Thus, you may remain unimpressed, and the charge of hypocriscy will remain invalidated.

Re: the DeMint quote.
1) I'm not even necessarily disputing the idea that they had more earmarks (they're still politicians, after all), I'm just asking for evidence.

2) The quote provides no source, so I can't really do anything with it.

3) It's weird that you would quote a prominent Republican to make this point; weren't you supposed to be trying to convince me that Republicans weren't complaining about Bush's fiscal policies?

The issue isn't freedom for Iraqis to be in an elected government. Why should that matter to me or any American?
Ugh. Really? This is what you're saying?

The only value for that war in Iraq is not "freedom" for Iraqis, but that an extremely brutal, unpredictable dictator was removed.
Seems to me that both are valuable. I'm not even sure how one could justify a complete disinterest in this. For example, consider these statements:

1) The more democratic countries there are, the less likely it is countries will war with one another.
2) The more democratic countries there are, the less suffering there is likely to be.
3) The more democratic countries there are, the more opportunities there are for trade and global economic growth.

You have to disagree with all three of those statements in order to ascribe "zero" value to the possibility of a free Iraqi state. Particularly in that part of the world, which could really use another example of democracy in action.

But in this world the price of war is so high we should only fight the wars we absolutely have to and that one didn't meet the price tag.
That is a perfectly reasonable position to take. Which makes the previous few sentences all the more inexplicable to me.