How Reliable is Anything?

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Note: This thread is not necessarily inspired by The Matrix, though it might address somewhat similar themes.
Basically, we live in a world in which "controlled environments" are increasingly the norm. As urban civilization continues to progress, the average human being finds him/herself spending less and less time in connection with nature and more and more time in artificially contrived settings or environments. In the modern world, reality is less and less readily perceptible and truth is more and more easy to conceal and distort.

A while ago, I posted this note in the thread on Movie Obsession:

I think it boils down to an issue of perception--more specifically, the human perception of reality.

I would argue that, on the average, about 25% of individual perception of reality is related to a direct, first-hand experience of reality, and about 75% is related to an indirect, second-hand experience of reality, which derives from word-of-mouth, media sources, literary sources, reference documentation, artistic representation, etc. The reason for this is that direct, first-hand experience of reality is inherently severely limited and restrictive, and if one were to rely exclusively on it, one's knowledge and perception of the universe would inevitably be as limited and restrictive. For example, we know that the world is spherical because we are so instructed by our schoolteachers and text books--indirect, 2nd hand experience. If we were to rely exclusively on direct, 1st hand experience, we would, in all probability, be convinced that the earth is flat.

With 2nd hand experience of reality, which, as I noted above, probably accounts for about 75% of an average individual's experience of reality--of the universe he/she inhabits--there are two fundamental issues: reliability and persuasiveness. The most reliable sources, such as reference documentation, etc., are not necessarily the most persuasive, while the most persuasive sources, such as art, propaganda, cinema, etc., are not necessarily the most reliable.

Cinema is, arguably, the most persuasive and least reliable of all such second-hand sources. It is the most persuasive, especially at a subliminal level of acceptance, because it almost creates a virtual reality, almost reproducing one's experience of reality through visual and auditory stimuli. It is the least reliable owing to the fact that the director has a free hand in doing what he likes with the camera lens--with modern digital special effects, especially, but also through selective editing and the selective process that constitutes cinematic photography--the selective camera lens. Thus, cinema is not necessarily an accurate representation of reality and, more often than not, it is a fabrication, ergo, deceptive and unreliable, albeit entertaining and diversionary.
The question is--can we be sure of anything anymore in the modern world? Can we take ANYTHING at all for granted? Can we rely on anything? We live in a world in which genetic manipulation is a reality--it is already widespread in farming and is becoming a possibility with human beings. We live in a world in which digital special effects can produce completely contrived scenarios in a cinematic context. We live in a world of virtual reality.

For most people, their "window into reality" is the TV or monitor screen. As I noted above, our perception of reality is largely dictated and, hence, CONTROLLED by second-hand sources. Most people get their news by watching it on TV or reading the newspaper or, increasingly, from the internet--as opposed to experiencing it first-hand. These are, supposedly, the "reliable sources of information"--documentary reference. But how reliable are even these sources? Can we really take them for granted? Only recently, the New York Times, supposedly the bastion for reliability in the news media, had to sack one of their prominent journalists for contriving news stories. This led to the resignation of several of their leading management. How objective and reliable are the supposedly reliable sources of information in our Information Age?

We graduate from school and university with a certain body of knowledge upon which we base our subsequent lives, to a great extent. But how reliable is this knowledge? Text books are written by human beings, after all. Where do you draw the line between objective information and subjective interpretation--even in supposedly objective sources of information such as university text books and reference documentation? Just how objective and neutral and free from bias are these supposedly reliable, objective sources of information? If you read the supposedly objective scientific documentation and news sources of the 19th century and early 20th century, for example, you will find that it is loaded with a colonial bias which would be extremely offensive to the modern sensibility, yet it was the norm back then because pretty much everybody accepted it and took it for granted. Just as they took racial discrimination for granted before the Civil Rights movement, and the fact that the earth was flat for granted before Columbus and Magellan proved otherwise.

This is a short one-act play I posted a while ago in another thread:

Is the World Flat?
A One-Act Play
By Uday Gunjikar

(Scene: Christopher Columbus addresses the "Flat Earth Society" in 15th Century Genoa, Italy)

Columbus: . . . And so, as you can see, my mathematical calculations and scientific observations clearly and indisputably prove that the earth is a sphere. Any questions?

(Onlooker in front row raises his hand)

Columbus: Yes?

1st Onlooker: But what does it all mean?

Columbus: Well, in layman’s terms, it means, simply, that the world is round.

1st Onlooker: The world is round??!! That’s ridiculous! Are you trying to tell us that the world we live on is round?

Columbus: As a matter of fact, yes.

1st Onlooker: What? Like a ball?

Columbus: Yes.

(Everybody laughs. Another onlooker from the back row speaks up.)

2nd Onlooker: But that’s totally absurd! I mean, look around you. Does the world even look like it’s round? Look at the ground. Does it look like a sphere? I mean, common knowledge clearly demonstrates--the facts clearly demonstrate--that the world is as flat as a pancake. How could it be otherwise?

Columbus: But my mathematical calculations and scientific measurements clearly prove otherwise.

2nd Onlooker: Is that so? Are you trying to tell us that some obscure mathematical calculations (quiet snickering and muffled laugher) and scientific measurements are more reliable than the collective opinions of all of us? I mean, we are the "Flat Earth Society"--our very existence is based on asserting the obvious, indisputable fact that the world is flat. And you come here with your mathematical calculations suggesting otherwise?

Columbus: In a word, yes.

(Another onlooker pipes up from the middle of the crowd).

3rd Onlooker: Let’s have a quick show of hands, shall we? Who believes that the earth is flat?

(Everybody raises their hand except Columbus)

3rd Onlooker: So you see, Signor Columbus? The consensus is clearly overwhelmingly opposed to you. What do you say to the fact that you are in a minority of one? To the fact that the entire population of the known world clearly knows, for a fact, that the earth is flat, whereas all you have to present us with are some whacko, way-out mathematical calculations and scientific measurements to try and prove otherwise? I mean, who’s going to believe something as ridiculous, as absurd as that?

(Another onlooker pipes up)

4th Onlooker: Tell us, Signor Columbus, how do you explain the fact that no one agrees with anything you say?

Columbus: It’s very simple. The truth is that all of you have been deceived by the enormous size of the earth and the result that the curvature of the earth is so small as to be almost invisible to the naked eye. To say nothing of the earth’s uneven terrain--hills, valleys, and so forth. However, if one takes the time and trouble to make a few careful observations, the curvature of the earth becomes indisputably apparent. A few simple experiments can prove this.

4th Onlooker: Look, I won’t even pretend to understand any of this gobbledegook you just said. All I’m saying is, "When are you going to quit making a public fool of yourself and simply fall in line with the rest of us, who know for a fact that the earth is flat?" I mean, all you have to offer us are some way-out calculations and stuff. How convincing is that?

(Another onlooker speaks up)

5th Onlooker: Just how comfortable is it being in a minority of one, Signor Columbus? When you pretty much have the whole world against you while all you have to offer are some mathematical calculations that no one understands, you have to wonder whether maybe you are being just a tad schizophrenic and out of touch with reality, wouldn’t you say?

1st Onlooker: Yeah, and besides all that, we, the Board of Directors of the "Flat Earth Society," personally have a great deal of money invested in continuing the proposition that the world is flat. So if you refuse to fall in line and accept what we tell you, we will feel compelled to relentlessly hound you and mercilessly persecute you until you cave in to our demands!

(At this point, the room erupts with jeers and cries of consent to the 1st onlooker’s words. A few audience members begin chanting the anthem of the "Flat Earth Society":
"The world is flat,
As we all know,
And that is that!
So get on with the show!")

Columbus: Oh yeah? So you expect me to fall in line with the rest of you so that I can proudly claim to be as deluded, ignorant and flat-out mistaken as the members of the "Flat Earth Society," while all along I happen to know better? Not likely! You see, there’s a little ocean voyage that I plan to take to prove you all wrong! Just you wait and see!

(The crowd continues to boo and jeer as Columbus makes his exit.)

Chorus: . . . And the rest, as they say, is history!

THE END
Point is, in my opinion, what we need more and more of in today's modern world--the world of the 21st Century--is a HEALTHY DOSE OF SKEPTICISM--what can we be sure of, anymore?



You are correct, of course. We cannot rely on anything as we really don't understand the 'big picture'. We have our world/universe that is beginning to make some kind of sense, but not really... for all our knowledge we are still shooting into the dark and hoping to hit something.

For me, I'm not sure skepticism is any better than just going with the flow. I don't think being skeptical will reveal any further truths as we are simply not equipped/ready etc to know more than we do.

Being that we are not at all on solid ground with anything (except what little science we have, that's fallible at best) how can we ever judge what's worth or worthy of being skeptical about?

I think there's a balance we can't see. positives/negatives, blacks/whites, switching to skepticism is really just swapping sides on a teeter-totter.



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Well, my point is--we need to know what the certainties are and what is pure fiction and fabrication. It's one thing to be fumbling in the dark, unsure of anything, and being AWARE of that. It's another thing to be fumbling in the dark and to have one's mind set on believing as certainties, things that are, in actuality, completely fallacious. One has to acknowledge the uncertainties and know where to draw the line otherwise one runs the risk of becoming another member of the "Flat-Earth Society", so to speak--believing to be certain things that are completely untrue. One has to know what is truth/reality and what is a lie. Are you saying, in effect, that "ignorance is bliss" and that it is better to be deceived that to know the truth? In answer, I quote the Bible: "The truth shall set you free."



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Good grief, Matt! What possesses you to mess up every serious discussion on this forum with your irrelevant remarks? If you have something of value to contribute to the discussion, by all means, do so. Otherwise, your remarks are completely pointless. They add nothing of value to the ongoing dialog and only pollute the intellectual atmosphere with irritating irrelevancies! Sorry for coming down on you so hard, but you are seriously getting on my nerves!



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I would just like to add another quote from a post I made in the Movie Obsession thread, that expands on my prior post, in which I suggested that 75% of the average person's concept of reality comes from second-hand sources, while only 25% comes from direct, first-hand experience:

Naturally, these figures do not derive from any sort of scientific study--they come from common, day-to-day experience. In actual fact, I would argue that my figures are far too generous. For the average member of modern urban society, the break-up is probably more like 10% vs 90% or even 1% vs. 99%. What leads me to make such radical claims, you ask? Okay, consider the following (Einsteinian) thought experiment. Take any news item one might read about in the newspaper. Say, for example, the following news item from msnbc.com: "Iraq ambushes injure 4 U.S. troops." 99.999% (roughly) of the worlds population would only know of this information through a media source--a second-hand source--assuming they know of it at all. Of the remaining 0.001%, 99% (roughly) would only know of it through word-of-mouth or a military dispatch. The only people who would know this piece of information first-hand would be the people directly involved in it and eye-witnesses--a tiny minority. Even the news sources that report this information to us only get the information second-hand themselves, very often. Either they interview eye-witnesses or they rely on a dispatch of some sort or a press-conference or word-of-mouth. So the fact remains that, regardless of the percentages, the vast majority of our knowledge and experience of reality comes from second-hand sources. And even our first-hand experience of reality is invariably chaotic and fragmentary, so that one can only make sense of it in the context of other, second-hand sources that paint a more complete picture of events (or, at least, seem to do so). So, my point is that, considering our overwhelming dependence on second-hand sources, how reliable are these sources and, consequently, our perception of the universe we live in?



Originally posted by Django
Are you saying, in effect, that "ignorance is bliss" and that it is better to be deceived that to know the truth? In answer, I quote the Bible: "The truth shall set you free."
No. I'm saying you and I don't know what the 'truth' is. I'm saying that by being overly skeptical about everything you may miss something. How do you really know what is truth and what is fiction? You don't. I don't. None of us do.



...but you are seriously getting on my nerves!
Isn't it ironic? Don'tcha think?



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Originally posted by Sir Toose

No. I'm saying you and I don't know what the 'truth' is. I'm saying that by being overly skeptical about everything you may miss something. How do you really know what is truth and what is fiction? You don't. I don't. None of us do.
I agree--by being overly skeptical, you do miss something--that's why I recommended a healthy dose of skepticism. We all live on faith, essentially, but there is something called "blind faith"--being a "true believer"--being excessively gullible and naive, for instance. My point is that discernment is essential--we need to be able to determine what is truth and what is a lie or deception if we want to have productive lives. There are ways of discerning the truth from the lie. My point is that perhaps not enough people are really trying to exercise discernment--that in modern society, we become conditioned to accept certain things as true, taking them for granted, as it were, and not questioning them sufficiently. In the 21st century, we cannot afford to take anything for granted.



Originally posted by Django
What possesses you to mess up every serious discussion on this forum with your irrelevant remarks?
Um, you're rather the last person who should be accusing someone of that.

And (completely ignoring our past scuffles) that little Columbus play is, in all honesty, completely God awful. I haven't the faintest idea what you see in it that leads you to believe it is clever, witty, funny, interesting, or any of the things that a play ought to be.

Just FYI.



Originally posted by Django
Are you saying, in effect, that "ignorance is bliss" and that it is better to be deceived that to know the truth? In answer, I quote the Bible: "The truth shall set you free."
I'd hate to turn this thread into another religious debate, but I'd argue that "the truth" as it's referred to in the Bible is God's love (or maybe Jesus's sacrifice. I'm no theologian.) And, as history has taught us, the religious are usually the ones responsible for distorting the truth and spreading ignorance.
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Originally posted by Yoda

Um, you're rather the last person who should be accusing someone of that.

And (completely ignoring our past scuffles) that little Columbus play is, in all honesty, completely God awful. I haven't the faintest idea what you see in it that leads you to believe it is clever, witty, funny, interesting, or any of the things that a play ought to be.

Just FYI.
Wow, so in reply, you have more irrelevant remarks to add to this discussion, huh? Like I said, if you have something of value to add, by all means do so. If all you want to do is pollute the intellectual atmosphere with irrelevant remarks, kindly butt out of the discussion, with all due respect.

Regarding the Columbus play--whatever its artistic merits, I wrote it to make a point, and I think it makes the point pretty effectively. I was not so much concerned with writing Shakespearean verse as simply making a point.



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Originally posted by Steve


I'd hate to turn this thread into another religious debate, but I'd argue that "the truth" as it's referred to in the Bible is God's love (or maybe Jesus's sacrifice. I'm no theologian.) And, as history has taught us, the religious are usually the ones responsible for distorting the truth and spreading ignorance.
I agree with what you said about the fact that religion is often responsible for distorting truth and perpetuating ignorance. Case in point, Christopher Columbus, who had to contend with Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition! Regarding what is referred to as "truth" in the passage quoted above--yes, it refers to God's truth and God's love--to Jesus as well (as in his quote "I am the way, the truth and the life")--but, I would argue, to any truth in general--to any fact or reality. Thus, the quote not only has a religious/spiritual level of meaning, but, I would claim, a practical one as well.



Originally posted by Django
Wow, so in reply, you have more irrelevant remarks to add to this discussion, huh? Like I said, if you have something of value to add, by all means do so. If all you want to do is pollute the intellectual atmosphere with irrelevant remarks, kindly butt out of the discussion, with all due respect.
I hardly think pointing out that you are insanely guilty of the thing you're complaining about qualifies as an irrelevant remark. You're the last person on the face of this earth who has anything resembling solid footing from which to criticize someone for not having anything to contribute, as you've made a habit of carrying on multi-page discussions with nary a fact behind your long, opinionated diatribes.


Originally posted by Django
Regarding the Columbus play--whatever its artistic merits, I wrote it to make a point, and I think it makes the point pretty effectively. I was not so much concerned with writing Shakespearean verse as simply making a point.
That's all well and good...I'm not looking for poetry. But if something is not to be aesthetically pleasing, it ought to be intellectually pleasing. What great insight does your play give us? If your point is that people are sometimes resistant to controversial ideas, you've scored about a 9.8 on the Duh-O-Meter. Throw in the fact that it's written with contemporary hindsight (think of the "I think World War II just started!" line from Pearl Harbor), and I don't have much use for it.



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You know, I really couldn't care less about your critical remarks here. The fact is that I am TRYING to carry on a discussion with a specific topic in mind and you are INTRUDING with your RUDE and IRRELEVANT COMMENTS.

So, with all due respect, if you have nothing to say pertaining to the topic at hand, I request you to BUTT OUT of the discussion!

P.S. Your allegations against me are completely unfounded and fallacious, but this is not the place to go into them. If you have a gripe against me, start a new thread. Please REFRAIN from CLUTTERING this thread with your POINTLESS and IRRELEVANT observations.

It's time to grow up.

Thanks.



Originally posted by Django
You know, I really couldn't care less about your critical remarks here. The fact is that I am TRYING to carry on a discussion with a specific topic in mind and you are INTRUDING with your RUDE and IRRELEVANT COMMENTS.
Originally posted by Django
Please REFRAIN from CLUTTERING this thread with your POINTLESS and IRRELEVANT observations.
"I hardly think pointing out that you are insanely guilty of the thing you're complaining about qualifies as an irrelevant remark."


Originally posted by Django
It's time to grow up.
Fine advice, were it to come from someone who didn't routinely ignore facts and twist truths (I can construct a small list of the infractions, if necessary) to avoid ever admitting they'd simply made a mistake. The day you give me advice on constructing hollow arguments made of nothing but unfounded opinion is the day I shall heed you.



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Originally posted by Yoda

"I hardly think pointing out that you are insanely guilty of the thing you're complaining about qualifies as an irrelevant remark."
Irrelevant to the topic currently being discussed.

You know, during the days/weeks when you were gone from the forum, things were so quiet and peaceful! I was actually able to communicate with people here and get my point across, to engage in a constructive exchange of ideas and foster mutual understanding and constructive dialog. I really made a lot of progress, without your incessant intervention. It made me forget just how intrusive and irritating you are, with your endless, predictable refrain--the same old song, again and again and again, like a stuck record from hell!

Now that you're back, with your inflated ego, your bad blood and your penchant for being rude, irritating and downright obnoxious, completely ignoring the subject under discussion, with a compulsive need to prove yourself right regardless of what exactly the issues are, your mindless obsession with irrelevant trivialities while totally ignoring the substance of the topics being discussed, your compulsive need to ruin any constructive commentary or intelligent debate I attempt to initiate, I guess things will probably return to the way they used to be--with you encouraging the juvenile delinquents (like Silver Bullet) and undermining any prospect for intelligent discussion.

Originally posted by Yoda

Fine advice, were it to come from someone who didn't routinely ignore facts and twist truths (I can construct a small list of the infractions, if necessary) to avoid ever admitting they'd simply made a mistake. The day you give me advice on constructing hollow arguments made of nothing but unfounded opinion is the day I shall heed you.
Again, the same old song! God, how old this has become! On and on and on, like some nagging fisherwoman!

Have you made a SINGLE COMMENT relevant to the topic under discussion so far?



Originally posted by Django
Irrelevant to the topic currently being discussed.
Not really. My observation operates as a sort of character witness. It's inane to not consider the speaker when pondering what's been spoken.


Originally posted by Django
You know, during the days/weeks when you were gone from the forum, things were so quiet and peaceful! I was actually able to communicate with people here and get my point across, to engage in a constructive exchange of ideas and foster mutual understanding and constructive dialog. I really made a lot of progress, without your incessant intervention. It made me forget just how intrusive and irritating you are, with your endless, predictable refrain--the same old song, again and again and again, like a stuck record from hell!
If my memory serves, you managed to alienate another person while I was away. Didn't Pidzilla say something about understanding why so many people have had trouble with you? Sorry to break it to you, but Toose saying he doesn't hate you doesn't exactly qualify as "progress."

That said, it's very telling that your idea of "hell" really just amounts to someone forcing you to own up to your mistakes, or provide evidence for your array of careless claims.


Originally posted by Django
Now that you're back, with your inflated ego, your bad blood and your penchant for being rude, irritating and downright obnoxious, completely ignoring the subject under discussion, with a compulsive need to prove yourself right regardless of what exactly the issues are, your mindless obsession with irrelevant trivialities while totally ignoring the substance of the topics being discussed, your compulsive need to ruin any constructive commentary or intelligent debate I attempt to initiate, I guess things will probably return to the way they used to be--with you encouraging the juvenile delinquents (like Silver Bullet) and undermining any prospect for intelligent discussion.
You know, I'll bet I could find quotes from your posts exhibiting each one of items in your little comma delimited list. But, as we've already established, it doesn't matter if you engage in all the practices you speak out against, so what's the use?

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that maybe the majority of us have a perfectly rational reason for disliking you?


Originally posted by Django
Have you made a SINGLE COMMENT relevant to the topic under discussion so far?
God help you if you can't see how pointing out your hypocriscy is relevant to the discussion.

Anyway, the various discussions we've had might not carry over into others like this if you didn't make such a habit of shirking them (along with any related verification).



Sorry to break it to you, but Toose saying he doesn't hate you doesn't exactly qualify as "progress."

Hi Chris, welcome back.


I never said I hated him or didn't hate him. I DID say he was focusing less on himself and arguing his beliefs (until now).


Damn good to see you!

(oh...maybe I did say that, now that I think about it.... I really meant I liked his attitude better...I don't know him to hate him).



You know, I really couldn't care less about your critical remarks here. The fact is that I am TRYING to carry on a discussion with a specific topic in mind and you are INTRUDING with your RUDE and IRRELEVANT COMMENTS.
[list=a][*]You do not own the threads you start, and thus cannot monitor what gets posted within them.[*]In attacking everything that anyone says when it does not comply with your own personal opinions of yourself, the world and live, you too are being rude. The very thing you keep saying we are. So, practice what you preach.[*]The topic at hand does, will and can change. And currently, the topic at hand is you, and the way you think your threads are part of an untouchable Oasis. They're not.[/list=a]