Who Profits from War?

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Originally posted by Django
No, it's clear that I am talking about facts whereas you are speculating about the future.
How can you be "talking about facts" when benefits were not, in fact, cut? Bush hasn't cut benefits, so you can't be talking about the past...and his budget calls for increases...so you can't be talking about the future, either. So in what dimension, pray tell, has he cut benefits?


Originally posted by Django
Well, his opinions and ideas have proven to be enormously influential to the GOP agenda.
Not really. He just tends to believe a lot of the same things they do. That doesn't mean he has any influence.


Originally posted by Django
It's not that I am unwilling or unable to support my claims. It is that my claims are so obvious that they require no further validation from me or anyone else. Anyway, I have already posted an article supporting my claims in this thread.
Um, the article you posted just said that some members of the party were trying to lower the the scrutiny, basically, with which the contracts were awarded. It doesn't address the questions I asked you at all.


Originally posted by Django
I said nothing of the sort. Here you go again--putting words in my mouth. Another example of YOUR deceptiveness. What I said is that the Republican fund relies heavily on contributions from the arms industry, and wars, like the Iraq war, serve primarily to enrich the arms industry--kind of like a payback, but not directly.
The fact that it's not a direct payback doesn't change my point at all. You're still claiming that my posting public federal statistics and asking you to verify them is dubious, but that your claim, which you have not verified in any way, nor provided evidence for, is not. This is what is known as a "double-standard."


Originally posted by Django
A drop that has resulted in the loss of 2.7 million jobs in the private sector, I might add, and another record-breaking deficit in the budget.
The deficit is nowhere near record breaking if you account for inflation. In fact, it's not even particularly large. But don't let your complete lack of knowledge stop you from diving right into these discussions.


Originally posted by Django
Unsuccessfully, I might add.
Somehow I think you're in the minority with that view.


Originally posted by Django
Well, who's to say you aren't stupid?
The IQ tests you seemingly place so much stock in.


Originally posted by Django
The numbers ARE deceptive because they trivialize a very serious situation.
They don't trivialize anything. They show us that unemployment has risen, but that it's still not in awful shape. The only one trivializing here is you, with flippant doomsday predictions made without any economic knowledge or research whatsoever.


Originally posted by Django
If the fact that you can't quantify the unpredictable crucifies Keynsian theory, it must therefore crucify the entire discipline of economics altogether, because it applies to ALL economic theories, not just Keynesian theory!
Wrong. It doesn't cruficy all economic theories, because not all economic theories PRETEND they can quantify the unpredictable...but the Keynesian theory (which you've been spelling incorrectly for several posts, BTW) does. It claims that nothing new will be created...but it can't possibly know that, and history shows us that something new is always created, even if we don't know what it is.



Registered User
The State profits from war. In the current 'war', the "War on Terror", that State is the United States. Americans like this war, 'cause its got an easy name to remember. Not like the Peloponnesian War of Ancient Greek times. Who could remember that name?

Let's look at this "War on Terror" for a minute. A few years back, 4 airplanes were hijacked by Islamic radicals. 2 of the planes were crashed into the World Trade Center, 1 into the Pentagon, and 1 crashed into the Pennsylvania countryside after patriotic, Christ-fearing passengers yelled "lets roll" and retook the plane from the Islamic radicals who were trying to crash it into the White House, we're told. Why did they do this? Because Americans are free. Forget for a moment Americans are not free. We are told the Islamic radicals think we are, and we are to think they want to kill us 'cause they hate that we are free while they are dirt poor. Forget also that all of the terrorists supposedly on the planes were not poor, and were actually very well-off. Forget that part. You are free, they hate you. Got it?

Who were these terrorists? Emperor Bush left his reading practice in Florida, flew around the country looking for more planes that had been hijacked, then returned to Washington to tell everybody it was Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden. Bush should know, he used to be bidness partners with Bin Laden. Bin Laden also worked for the CIA helping to drive the Evil Empire, the Soviet Union, out of Afghanistan. Why the US or the CIA cared about Afghanistan, you'll have to wonder 'cause I don't know. Something about the Cold War, and the Domino theory. It also got some young peeps killed in a place called Vietnam.

Somehow, the State knew immediately who had done the terrorist act, why, how it was planned, how it was carried out, and where to find the evil doers who had done did the evil. Very efficient for a Government that spends $2.3 trillion dollars annually on stuff they can't account for.

So, Al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan and Bush wanted them "Dead or Alive" like in the Ole West town of El Paso. Bush also didn't like the religious zealots running Afghanistan, called The Taliban. These zealots refused to let the US Government build an oil pipeline in the region. They said no to oil? Obviously backward heathens who should go meet Allah ASAP. Let's get rid of those people, 'cause they hate our freedom to get oil everywhere on Earth and they are harboring evil doing terrorists who were once CIA operatives. Bomb them.

Operation something or other ensued. Lovely nicknames The State gives its mass murder, Operation Rolling Thunder....Operation Desert Swift Vengeance....Operation Bomb Cavemen. Bomb they did, and soon conquered the religious zealots. But, no Bin Laden. No worries, the State was rounding up plenty of other Evil Doers.

The USA PATRIOT ACT, an acronym for some Unconstitutional provision given the Gestapo, er Federal Law Enforcement. This Act was passed under the cover of darkness, without any of our elected leaders reading it. Oh well, at least they showed up Sunday for "Meet the Press". And I just know they'll get that fundraising letter in the mail to me. Anyway, it passed and a new era of protection for the American populace was ushered in. Emperor Bush and the Congress created The Homeland Security Dept run by Tom Ridge. Ridge worked with the Ministries of Truth, War, and Propaganda to round up Al-Qaeda suspects and ship them off to Cuba, bastion of freedom. But this was "our" part of Cuba, Guantanemo Bay, so it was cool. Just throw those perps in the prison camp and we'll deal with them later. Nobody will really care, they aren't Americans. They would be subject to military tribunals, but no Americans would be.

Oops, soon the Feds nabbed this guy named Jose Padilla and they locked him up. No charges brought, he was just too bad a guy. Oh, but then they changed their minds and Padilla was also subject to military tribunals 'cause he just looked like a terrorist. A shame he is American, but nobody will hear about him, and less will care.

Well, as I say they couldn't find CIA operative Bin Laden. They said. So, in order to keep the momentum for a total police state going, we needed another war. The Afghanistan crusade, er operation, was over. The country was a mess, bombs all over and in a general state of chaos, but thats ok. It's now off the front page and we can deal with it at our own pace. Or not deal with it. Whichever works for the State's purpose: controlling its own citizens. The best way to do this is to have a BIG war. Who do we hate? Well, there is that guy over in Iraq. Remember him? That guy we armed to fight Iran in the 80's. That Hussein guy? Ring a bell? Yeah, we kicked him out of Kuwait about 10-12 years ago after he invaded after asking us if we cared if he invaded and we said no, but then changed our minds. Joke was on him. He was brutalizing his people with economic sanctions. Wait, nope, that was the UN and the U.S. doing that. I love the UN, bunch of do-good communists freeloading in New York City seeking to better mankind. Heartwarming.

So, the salesmen that get paid by us to tell us the truth started telling us that Hussein was partners with Bin Laden and had lots of bad weapons that could kill us all, or Israel, which would be even worse. He has had the weapons for awhile now, ever since he kicked out the inspectors who had been inspecting him back in the 90's. The fact that he didn't kick them out, but that they were withdrawn by President Clinton so Clinton could bomb Iraq and distract Americans from his nasty prejury bidness back in '98 has been forgotten. Or dreamt by silly right-wingers.

So, the State tried to get the United Nations to back the overthrow of Hussein, but it wouldn't. Why would it? The U.N. is full of commie despots just like Hussein. Why bother with Hussein, we have a world government to plan and can't be distracted. Oh well, go ahead U.S., we won't stop you. But hurry back, we need your help in disarming your citizens, dumbing-down your children, and spreading abortion as far and as wide as we can.

Hussein was conquered, but not found. He hides well. The Empire has yet to find his harmful weapons, the one's that would kill so many Americans. The search continues. Now the saber rattles that Iran is giving the U.S. the 'evil eye'. Do we have to teach you a lesson too, Iran? Don't you understand this production yet?

In the span of 2 years, the United States has overthrown 2 foreign governments, imprisoned hundreds without trial including American citizens, and massively increased its surveillance measures in the U.S.

You ask me who profits from war?

The State ALWAYS does.

Rock & Roll.

Focker.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Yoda

No argument there.
I don't know if you by that mean that what I was saying was not an argument but: a war having lasted for over a year and a half can't exactly be "insignificant", even if that's how the Bush administration wants us to view it.

You know, it's funny: when I started researching campaign contributions, I casually expected to find most of them leaning one way or the other...but it seems a fair number of companies (from what I've seen so far) give significantly to both parties. This surprised me at first, but it makes sense when you think about it.
Yeah, it makes sure you're always on the winning side in some way.

Anyway, Bush has received very little from Bechtel. The Republican Party has received a little more, but not much more than the Democrats, and what they have received is still pretty damn small when compared to the whole of their contributions, I believe. I suppose there could be things like old friendships at play, but it feels like a bit of a stretch to say someone would be awarded a massive government contract simply for knowing the party's President a decade and a half ago.
Bush received little, you say. How much is that and how much did they give Gore?

As I said, Riley Bechtel, the group's CEO, is at the present time a member of this council dealing with american export, and exclusively handpicked by George W Bush. That didn't happen a decade and a half ago.

So, I'd say it's possible, but the data doesn't point strongly in either direction, and it certainly doesn't point at Bush, specifically. Regardless, it's refreshing to see that you looked into this matter personally. My old man and I like to say that we should "follow the truth wherever it leads us," so I have nothing but approval and admiration for anyone who investigates these things with an open mind and an honest desire for a real answer.
Actually, I read it in the paper so not much investigating going on here.

Anyway, the article also said that the Bechtel Group were traditionally known for their close connections to the Republican Party. And when Bush personally appoint someone a member of a coucil handling matters regarding american export, and this member at the same time is the CEO over a company getting a multimillion dollar order from the government, then something is fishy to me. I'm hearing a lot of "I told you so...." about this. I would say it does point at Bush.

It would be interesting to know which american construction companies that contributed the most to Bush's presidential campaigne.
__________________
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



Django's Avatar
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Originally posted by Yoda
How can you be "talking about facts" when benefits were not, in fact, cut? Bush hasn't cut benefits, so you can't be talking about the past...and his budget calls for increases...so you can't be talking about the future, either. So in what dimension, pray tell, has he cut benefits?
Whether or not it actually happened, the article speaks quite clearly about Bush's intentions, in October 2002, at least.

Originally posted by Yoda
Not really. He just tends to believe a lot of the same things they do. That doesn't mean he has any influence.
That's arguable.

Originally posted by Yoda
Um, the article you posted just said that some members of the party were trying to lower the the scrutiny, basically, with which the contracts were awarded. It doesn't address the questions I asked you at all.
Give me a break! The article describes how:
A Republican leader in Congress is proposing drastic changes in Pentagon procurement that would allow defense companies to win contracts of up to $200 million apiece without competitive bidding and other safeguards. The current limit is $7.5 million.
If this ain't fishy, I don't know what is!

Originally posted by Yoda
The fact that it's not a direct payback doesn't change my point at all. You're still claiming that my posting public federal statistics and asking you to verify them is dubious, but that your claim, which you have not verified in any way, nor provided evidence for, is not. This is what is known as a "double-standard."
That's got to take the cake! You complaining about double standards! Anyway, my point is that it's pretty obvious what's going on here. War is profitable to the arms industry, which, as everyone knows, contributes heavily to the Republican fund. I'm sure a little research can corroborate these facts beyond a doubt, but I simply do not have the leisure to do this research. Whatever few news articles I have dug up, though, clearly support my claims.

Originally posted by Yoda
The deficit is nowhere near record breaking if you account for inflation. In fact, it's not even particularly large. But don't let your complete lack of knowledge stop you from diving right into these discussions.
Sure, and the moon is made of green cheese.

Originally posted by Yoda
Somehow I think you're in the minority with that view.
Somehow, I don't think so.

Originally posted by Yoda
The IQ tests you seemingly place so much stock in.
Which IQ test did you take? Probably not the same one that I took.

Originally posted by Yoda
They don't trivialize anything. They show us that unemployment has risen, but that it's still not in awful shape. The only one trivializing here is you, with flippant doomsday predictions made without any economic knowledge or research whatsoever.
They do trivialize the economic situation by suggesting that things aren't "that bad" whereas, in fact, 2.7 million jobs have been lost in the private sector and it's virtually impossible to find a job at present--even a very basic job at McDonalds or at the supermarket! That surely says something. Your statistics do not account for these facts, do they?

Originally posted by Yoda
Wrong. It doesn't cruficy all economic theories, because not all economic theories PRETEND they can quantify the unpredictable...but the Keynesian theory (which you've been spelling incorrectly for several posts, BTW) does. It claims that nothing new will be created...but it can't possibly know that, and history shows us that something new is always created, even if we don't know what it is.
Well, firstly, you said that the fact that you cannot quantify the unpredictable crucifies the Keynesian theory. I replied that if so, it crucifies the entire discipline of Economics. Now, you're saying something completely different. You are citing a limitation in the Keynesian theory. My reply to that is that in spite of the limitations, the Keynesian theory does hold true a substantial percentage of the time and cannot be ignored. In fact the recession of the past 3 years is a validation of Keynesian economics. Two totally different arguments altogether, and neither one of them are valid from your perspective, I'm sorry to say. All theories in the field of Economics have their limitations, which is why no economic theory is 100% correct. The field of Economics is like that--there is no cut and dry answer to anything--it's all about approximations. But despite their limitations, you cannot ignore them, because they all have a degree of validity, to varying degrees, of course. In the case of the Keynesian theory, FDR's measures to alleviate the Great Depression and the recession of the past 3 years, both serve to validate it. My point is that the theory may not be 100% correct, but you cannot ignore it either.



Originally posted by Django
Whether or not it actually happened, the article speaks quite clearly about Bush's intentions, in October 2002, at least.
There are a number of potential explanations: for example...why support this program when he's already raised benefits, and was set to raise them again? Regardless, he never cut benefits, nor does his 2004 budget call for cuts, so you're all out of complaints in this department.


Originally posted by Django
That's arguable.
I don't think it is. Regardless, you can't count what he says as Republican policy.


Originally posted by Django
Give me a break! The article describes how:

If this ain't fishy, I don't know what is!
You didn't say "I think there's something fishy here." You said "the armaments industry, which gave generously to Bush and the Republicans, is benefitting from this war."

What you're doing is saying "you hit someone with your car!" and then pointing to some skidmarks in the road as proof.


Originally posted by Django
War is profitable to the arms industry, which, as everyone knows, contributes heavily to the Republican fund. I'm sure a little research can corroborate these facts beyond a doubt, but I simply do not have the leisure to do this research.
Fact: you said information that you have not personally confirmed is "dubious." Fact: you haven't personally confirmed your claim about the arms industry. Therefore, your claim is dubious.

Good luck squirming outta that one.


Originally posted by Django
Sure, and the moon is made of green cheese.
Look it up. It's not my fault you go around repeating things you've heard without verifying them. The fact that you haven't, and won't despite constant prodding, tells me that you're not at all interested in the truth.


Originally posted by Django
Somehow, I don't think so.
Feel free to ask around. Seems to me even those here who strongly dislike Bush recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about.


Originally posted by Django
Which IQ test did you take? Probably not the same one that I took.
Several. But that's completely irrelevant. My point is the same: if I were doctoring information, I wouldn't be trying to talk you into seeing it for yourself.


Originally posted by Django
They do trivialize the economic situation by suggesting that things aren't "that bad" whereas, in fact, 2.7 million jobs have been lost in the private sector and it's virtually impossible to find a job at present--even a very basic job at McDonalds or at the supermarket! That surely says something. Your statistics do not account for these facts, do they?
You can get a job at McDonald's without much difficulty at all out here. This another one of your infamous "exaggerations"?

Since you continually ignore what I say, I suppose I'll have to repeat myself: your eyes see a very tiny portion of the nation. What's more, your brain is not capable of calculating unemployment statistics based on what your eyes see. It's just not possible, as your massive exaggerations about unemployment attest to.

Stop tap-dancing, and answer the question: are you saying the numbers are false, or not? Are you saying we have above-average unemployment, or not? What's more likely to be wrong: nationwide statistics from the Office of Management of Budget, or some personal offhand observation you make in a small portion of the country? Perhaps you ought to consider the possibility that your tri-county area is not a perfect microcosm of the United States.


Originally posted by Django
Well, firstly, you said that the fact that you cannot quantify the unpredictable crucifies the Keynesian theory. I replied that if so, it crucifies the entire discipline of Economics. Now, you're saying something completely different. You are citing a limitation in the Keynesian theory.
I'm saying the exact same thing: no one can quantify the unpredictable, but Keynesian tries to. You're saying "no one knows what's coming," but Keynesianism, by definition, says "nothing is coming." This is clearly false, and seeing as how its CENTRAL PREMISE is based around this false assumption, it is a highly flawed and unreliable economic theory.

Other economic theories are not crucified by this principle because they don't try to quantify the unpredictable. Keynesianism does.


Originally posted by Django
In fact the recession of the past 3 years is a validation of Keynesian economics.
How?


Originally posted by Django
Two totally different arguments altogether, and neither one of them are valid from your perspective, I'm sorry to say. All theories in the field of Economics have their limitations, which is why no economic theory is 100% correct. The field of Economics is like that--there is no cut and dry answer to anything--it's all about approximations. But despite their limitations, you cannot ignore them, because they all have a degree of validity, to varying degrees, of course.
Originally posted by Django
My point is that the theory may not be 100% correct, but you cannot ignore it either.
True. Which is why I stated (do you even read my posts?) that demand-side policies can help in the short-term with price spikes and fluctuations, but they have little to no long-term value. I'm not asking that it serve as some sort of Universal truth...just that it not have a big, fat, gaping hole in all of its long-term policies.


Originally posted by Django
In the case of the Keynesian theory, FDR's measures to alleviate the Great Depression and the recession of the past 3 years, both serve to validate it.
I'd like to see you try to demonstate that. The Depression continued throughout FDR's term. We didn't see prosperity again until after WWII.



Originally posted by Piddzilla
I don't know if you by that mean that what I was saying was not an argument but: a war having lasted for over a year and a half can't exactly be "insignificant", even if that's how the Bush administration wants us to view it.
I meant that I had no argument with what you were saying. I don't think the war is insignificant...but it's certainly not large as far as wars go. At least not yet.


Originally posted by Piddzilla
Bush received little, you say. How much is that and how much did they give Gore?
According to data released by the Federal Election Commission in late April, Bechtel Group Inc. contributed a bit over $6,000 to President Bush. Pretty small potatoes.

As for Gore: it's kinda confusing, because there's just loads of raw data in some places. I'm not seeing anything for Gore so far, so let's assume they gave him nothing until I find something.


Originally posted by Piddzilla
As I said, Riley Bechtel, the group's CEO, is at the present time a member of this council dealing with american export, and exclusively handpicked by George W Bush. That didn't happen a decade and a half ago.
True. But I don't think that crucifies anyone. You have to consider which is the cause, and which is the effect. Example: does Bush adopt certain policies to please those who contribute to him, or do people contribute to him because they agree with the policies he adopts? Nothing at all shady about the latter.


Originally posted by Piddzilla
Actually, I read it in the paper so not much investigating going on here.
Well, reading the newspaper's more than a lot of Americans do, sorry to say.



Originally posted by Piddzilla
Anyway, the article also said that the Bechtel Group were traditionally known for their close connections to the Republican Party. And when Bush personally appoint someone a member of a coucil handling matters regarding american export, and this member at the same time is the CEO over a company getting a multimillion dollar order from the government, then something is fishy to me. I'm hearing a lot of "I told you so...." about this. I would say it does point at Bush.

Originally posted by Piddzilla
It would be interesting to know which american construction companies that contributed the most to Bush's presidential campaigne.
That's tough to figure out, because they divide them by industry, and by individual donor, but I haven't found any option to view the top donors for each specific industry.

I do know, however, that the six companies asked to submit bids by the U.S. Government contributed a grand total of $32,427 to Bush's campaign. In other words: damn near nothing. He got most of his contributions from the real estate and financial markets...so whether you like him or not, I think it's difficult to make the case that his candidacy was propped up by oil and construction (not that you were making that claim).



Django's Avatar
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Originally posted by Yoda
There are a number of potential explanations: for example...why support this program when he's already raised benefits, and was set to raise them again? Regardless, he never cut benefits, nor does his 2004 budget call for cuts, so you're all out of complaints in this department.
Nice try, but doesn't cut the mustard. How can you deny documented facts?

Originally posted by Yoda
I don't think it is. Regardless, you can't count what he says as Republican policy.
I didn't say that. I said that he is highly influential with Republican policy.

Originally posted by Yoda
You didn't say "I think there's something fishy here." You said "the armaments industry, which gave generously to Bush and the Republicans, is benefitting from this war."

What you're doing is saying "you hit someone with your car!" and then pointing to some skidmarks in the road as proof.
Well, the fact that the arms industry profits from war is a FACT. The fact that the arms industry contributes heavily to the Republican fund is a FACT. The article is evidence of the fact that Republicans depend highly on campaign contributions from the arms industry. How difficult is this to understand?

Originally posted by Yoda
Fact: you said information that you have not personally confirmed is "dubious." Fact: you haven't personally confirmed your claim about the arms industry. Therefore, your claim is dubious.

Good luck squirming outta that one.
What I said is that my claims are so OBVIOUS that they REQUIRE no confirmation.

Originally posted by Yoda
Look it up. It's not my fault you go around repeating things you've heard without verifying them. The fact that you haven't, and won't despite constant prodding, tells me that you're not at all interested in the truth.
More verbal chicanery on your part. I won't bother to address this nonsense.

Originally posted by Yoda
Feel free to ask around. Seems to me even those here who strongly dislike Bush recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about.
What, and post another poll, only to be accused of narcissism and self-promotion by you?

Originally posted by Yoda
Several. But that's completely irrelevant. My point is the same: if I were doctoring information, I wouldn't be trying to talk you into seeing it for yourself.
No comment

Originally posted by Yoda
You can get a job at McDonald's without much difficulty at all out here. This another one of your infamous "exaggerations"?
No, it is no exaggeration.

Originally posted by Yoda
Since you continually ignore what I say, I suppose I'll have to repeat myself: your eyes see a very tiny portion of the nation. What's more, your brain is not capable of calculating unemployment statistics based on what your eyes see. It's just not possible, as your massive exaggerations about unemployment attest to.
I think my "tiny part of the nation" is a fair cross-section of the nation as a whole. Given that I happen to be in one of the more affluent areas of the country, if the situation here is that bad, it has to be at least as bad elsewhere. Are you saying things are better in Mississippi? Or wherever the hell you might be located?

Originally posted by Yoda
Stop tap-dancing, and answer the question: are you saying the numbers are false, or not? Are you saying we have above-average unemployment, or not? What's more likely to be wrong: nationwide statistics from the Office of Management of Budget, or some personal offhand observation you make in a small portion of the country? Perhaps you ought to consider the possibility that your tri-county area is not a perfect microcosm of the United States.
What I'm saying is that the numbers are DECEPTIVE because they TRIVIALIZE the situation--they omit a number of crucial facts and conceal more than they reveal. They make it appear as if things aren't so bad, whereas, in fact, things are, or, at least, have been VERY bad.

Originally posted by Yoda
I'm saying the exact same thing: no one can quantify the unpredictable, but Keynesian tries to. You're saying "no one knows what's coming," but Keynesianism, by definition, says "nothing is coming." This is clearly false, and seeing as how its CENTRAL PREMISE is based around this false assumption, it is a highly flawed and unreliable economic theory.

Other economic theories are not crucified by this principle because they don't try to quantify the unpredictable. Keynesianism does.
First of all, Keynes happens to be the single most important figure in the entire field of Economics, so you cannot dismiss Keynes without dismissing all of Economics altogether. Secondly, I want quotations, please. Exactly where does Keynes say "nothing is coming"?

Originally posted by Yoda
How?
Well, the downward spiral clearly demonstrates that supply follows demand and not vice versa. It shows how a drop in consumer confidence, after the dot-com bubble burst, has led to a decline in demand, which has led to a decline in supply. Pure Keynes, if you ask me.

Originally posted by Yoda
True. Which is why I stated (do you even read my posts?) that demand-side policies can help in the short-term with price spikes and fluctuations, but they have little to no long-term value. I'm not asking that it serve as some sort of Universal truth...just that it not have a big, fat, gaping hole in all of its long-term policies.
Au contraire, by boosting consumer confidence in the short-term and, thereby, boosting demand, it certainly does have long-term value. With a rise in demand, there is a rise in supply, which boosts the economy.

Originally posted by Yoda
I'd like to see you try to demonstate that. The Depression continued throughout FDR's term. We didn't see prosperity again until after WWII. [/b]
The depression took place from 1930 - 1939. The war ended in 1945. FDR was President from 1933 - 1945. Please check your facts.

Here's some interesting material about the Great Depression and FDR's "New Deal":

Great Depression

CAUSES & EFFECTS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CAUSES

* Unequal distribution of wealth

* High Tariffs and war debts

* Over production in industry and agriculture

* Stock market crash and financial panic


EFFECTS

* Widespread hunger, poverty, and unemployment

* Worldwide economic crisis

* Democratic victory in 1932 election

* FDR's New Deal
THE NEW DEAL AND WORLD WAR
"We must be the great arsenal of democracy."
President Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1941


ROOSEVELT AND THE NEW DEAL

In 1933 the new president, Franklin Roosevelt, brought an air of confidence and optimism that quickly rallied the people to the banner of his program, known as the New Deal. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself," the president declared in his inaugural address to the nation.

In a certain sense, it is fair to say that the New Deal merely introduced types of social and economic reform familiar to many Europeans for more than a generation. Moreover, the New Deal represented the culmination of a long-range trend toward abandonment of "laissez-faire" capitalism, going back to the regulation of the railroads in the 1880s, and the flood of state and national reform legislation introduced in the Progressive era of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

What was truly novel about the New Deal, however, was the speed with which it accomplished what previously had taken generations. In fact, many of the reforms were hastily drawn and weakly administered; some actually contradicted others. And during the entire New Deal era, public criticism and debate were never interrupted or suspended; in fact, the New Deal brought to the individual citizen a sharp revival of interest in government.

When Roosevelt took the presidential oath, the banking and credit system of the nation was in a state of paralysis. With astonishing rapidity the nation's banks were first closed -- and then reopened only if they were solvent. The administration adopted a policy of moderate currency inflation to start an upward movement in commodity prices and to afford some relief to debtors. New governmental agencies brought generous credit facilities to industry and agriculture. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) insured savings-bank deposits up to $5,000, and severe regulations were imposed upon the sale of securities on the stock exchange.

UNEMPLOYMENT

By 1933 millions of Americans were out of work. Bread lines were a common sight in most cities. Hundreds of thousands roamed the country in search of food, work and shelter. "Brother, can you spare a dime?" went the refrain of a popular song.

An early step for the unemployed came in the form of the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC), a program enacted by Congress to bring relief to young men between 18 and 25 years of age. Run in semi-military style, the CCC enrolled jobless young men in work camps across the country for about $30 per month. About 2 million young men took part during the decade. They participated in a variety of conservation projects: planting trees to combat soil erosion and maintain national forests; eliminating stream pollution; creating fish, game and bird sanctuaries; and conserving coal, petroleum, shale, gas, sodium and helium deposits.

Work relief came in the form of the Civil Works Administration. Although criticized as "make work," the jobs funded ranged from ditch digging to highway repairs to teaching. Created in November 1933, it was abandoned in the spring of 1934. Roosevelt and his key officials, however, continued to favor unemployment programs based on work relief rather than welfare.

AGRICULTURE

The New Deal years were characterized by a belief that greater regulation would solve many of the country's problems. In 1933, for example, Congress passed the Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) to provide economic relief to farmers. The AAA had at its core a plan to raise crop prices by paying farmers a subsidy to compensate for voluntary cutbacks in production. Funds for the payments would be generated by a tax levied on industries that processed crops. By the time the act had become law, however, the growing season was well underway, and the AAA encouraged farmers to plow under their abundant crops. Secretary of Agriculture Henry A. Wallace called this activity a "shocking commentary on our civilization." Nevertheless, through the AAA and the Commodity Credit Corporation, a program which extended loans for crops kept in storage and off the market, output dropped.

Between 1932 and 1935, farm income increased by more than 50 percent, but only partly because of federal programs. During the same years that farmers were being encouraged to take land out of production -- displacing tenants and sharecroppers -- a severe drought hit the Great Plains states, significantly reducing farm production. Violent wind and dust storms ravaged the southern Great Plains in what became known as the "Dust Bowl," throughout the 1930s, but particularly from 1935 to 1938. Crops were destroyed, cars and machinery were ruined, people and animals were harmed. Approximately 800,000 people, often called "Okies," left Arkansas, Texas, Missouri and Oklahoma during the 1930s and 1940s. Most headed farther west to the land of myth and promise, California. The migrants were not only farmers, but also professionals, retailers and others whose livelihoods were connected to the health of the farm communities. California was not the place of their dreams, at least initially. Most migrants ended up competing for seasonal jobs picking crops at extremely low wages.

The government provided aid in the form of the Soil Conservation Service, established in 1935. Farm practices that had damaged the soil had intensified the severity of the storms, and the Service taught farmers measures to reduce erosion. In addition, almost 30,000 kilometers of trees were planted to break the force of winds.

Although the AAA had been mostly successful, it was abandoned in 1936, when the tax on food processors was ruled unconstitutional. Six weeks later Congress passed a more effective farm-relief act, which authorized the government to make payments to farmers who reduced plantings of soil-depleting crops -- thereby achieving crop reduction through soil conservation practices.

By 1940 nearly 6 million farmers were receiving federal subsidies under this program. The new act likewise provided loans on surplus crops, insurance for wheat and a system of planned storage to ensure a stable food supply. Soon, prices of agricultural commodities rose, and economic stability for the farmer began to seem possible.

INDUSTRY AND LABOR

The National Recovery Administration (NRA), established in 1933 with the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), attempted to end cut-throat competition by setting codes of fair competitive practice to generate more jobs and thus more buying. Although the NRA was welcomed initially, business complained bitterly of over-regulation as recovery began to take hold. The NRA was declared unconstitutional in 1935. By this time other policies were fostering recovery, and the government soon took the position that administered prices in certain lines of business were a severe drain on the national economy and a barrier to recovery.

It was also during the New Deal that organized labor made greater gains than at any previous time in American history. NIRA had guaranteed to labor the right of collective bargaining (bargaining as a unit representing individual workers with industry). Then in 1935 Congress passed the National Labor Relations Act, which defined unfair labor practices, gave workers the right to bargain through unions of their own choice and prohibited employers from interfering with union activities. It also created the National Labor Relations Board to supervise collective bargaining, administer elections and ensure workers the right to choose the organization that should represent them in dealing with employers.

The great progress made in labor organization brought working people a growing sense of common interests, and labor's power increased not only in industry but also in politics. This power was exercised largely within the framework of the two major parties, however, and the Democratic Party generally received more union support than the Republicans.

THE SECOND NEW DEAL

In its early years, the New Deal sponsored a remarkable series of legislative initiatives and achieved significant increases in production and prices -- but it did not bring an end to the Depression. And as the sense of immediate crisis eased, new demands emerged. Businessmen mourned the end of "laissez-faire" and chafed under the regulations of the NIRA. Vocal attacks also mounted from the political left and right as dreamers, schemers and politicians alike emerged with economic panaceas that drew wide audiences of those dissatisfied with the pace of recovery. They included Francis E. Townsend's plan for generous old-age pensions; the inflationary suggestions of Father Coughlin, the radio priest who blamed international bankers in speeches increasingly peppered with anti-Semitic imagery; and most formidably, the "Every Man a King" plan of Huey P. Long, senator and former governor of Louisiana, the powerful and ruthless spokesman of the displaced who ran the state like a personal fiefdom. (If he had not been assassinated, Long very likely would have launched a presidential challenge to Franklin Roosevelt in 1936.)

In the face of these pressures from left and right, President Roosevelt backed a new set of economic and social measures. Prominent among these were measures to fight poverty, to counter unemployment with work and to provide a social safety net.

The Works Progress Administration (WPA), the principal relief agency of the so-called second New Deal, was an attempt to provide work rather than welfare. Under the WPA, buildings, roads, airports and schools were constructed. Actors, painters, musicians and writers were employed through the Federal Theater Project, the Federal Art Project and the Federal Writers Project. In addition, the National Youth Administration gave part-time employment to students, established training programs and provided aid to unemployed youth. The WPA only included about three million jobless at a time; when it was abandoned in 1943 it had helped a total of 9 million people.

But the New Deal's cornerstone, according to Roosevelt, was the Social Security Act of 1935. Social Security created a system of insurance for the aged, unemployed and disabled based on employer and employee contributions. Many other industrialized nations had already enacted such programs, but calls for such an initiative in the United States by the Progressives in the early 1900s had gone unheeded. Although conservatives complained that the Social Security system went against American traditions, it was actually relatively conservative. Social Security was funded in large part by taxes on the earnings of current workers, with a single fixed rate for all regardless of income. To Roosevelt, these limitations on the programs were compromises to ensure passage. Although its origins were initially quite modest, Social Security today is one of the largest domestic programs administered by the U.S. government.

A NEW COALITION

In 1936, the Republican Party nominated Alfred M. Landon, the relatively liberal governor of Kansas, to oppose Roosevelt. Despite all the complaints leveled at the New Deal, Roosevelt won an even more decisive victory than in 1932. He took 60 percent of the population and carried all states except Maine and Vermont. In this election, a broad new coalition aligned with the Democratic Party emerged, consisting of labor, most farmers, immigrants and urban ethnic groups from East and Southern Europe, African Americans and the South. The Republican Party received the support of business as well as middle-class members of small towns and suburbs. This political alliance, with some variation and shifting, remained intact for several decades.

From 1932 to 1938 there was widespread public debate on the meaning of New Deal policies to the nation's political and economic life. It became obvious that Americans wanted the government to take greater responsibility for the welfare of the nation. Indeed, historians generally credit the New Deal with establishing the foundations of the modern welfare state in the United States. Some New Deal critics argued that the indefinite extension of government functions would eventually undermine the liberties of the people. But President Roosevelt insisted that measures fostering economic well-being would strengthen liberty and democracy.

In a radio address in 1938, Roosevelt reminded the American people that:

Democracy has disappeared in several other great nations, not because the people of those nations disliked democracy, but because they had grown tired of unemployment and insecurity, of seeing their children hungry while they sat helpless in the face of government confusion and government weakness through lack of leadership....Finally, in desperation, they chose to sacrifice liberty in the hope of getting something to eat. We in America know that our democratic institutions can be preserved and made to work. But in order to preserve them we need...to prove that the practical operation of democratic government is equal to the task of protecting the security of the people....The people of America are in agreement in defending their liberties at any cost, and the first line of the defense lies in the protection of economic security.

EVE OF WORLD WAR II

Before Roosevelt's second term was well under way, his domestic program was overshadowed by a new danger little noted by average Americans: the expansionist designs of totalitarian regimes in Japan, Italy and Germany. In 1931 Japan invaded Manchuria and crushed Chinese resistance; a year later the Japanese set up the puppet state of Manchukuo. Italy, having succumbed to fascism, enlarged its boundaries in Libya and in 1935 attacked Ethiopia. Germany, where Adolf Hitler had organized the National Socialist Party and seized the reins of government in 1933, reoccupied the Rhineland and undertook large-scale rearmament.

As the real nature of totalitarianism became clear, and as Germany, Italy and Japan continued their aggression, American apprehension fueled isolationist sentiment. In 1938, after Hitler had incorporated Austria into the German Reich, his demands for the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia made war seem possible at any moment in Europe. The United States, disillusioned by the failure of the crusade for democracy in World War I, announced that in no circumstances could any country involved in the conflict look to it for aid. Neutrality legislation, enacted piecemeal from 1935 to 1937, prohibited trade with or credit to any of the warring nations. The objective was to prevent, at almost any cost, the involvement of the United States in a non-American war.

With the Nazi assault on Poland in 1939 and the outbreak of World War II, isolationist sentiment increased, even though Americans were far from neutral in their feelings about world events. Public sentiment clearly favored the victims of Hitler's aggression and supported the Allied powers that stood in opposition to German expansion. Under the circumstances, however, Roosevelt could only wait until public opinion regarding U.S. involvement was altered by events.

With the fall of France and the air war against Britain in 1940, the debate intensified between those who favored aiding the democracies and the isolationists, organized around the America First Committee, whose support ranged from Midwestern conservatives to left-leaning pacifists. In the end, the interventionist argument won a protracted public debate, aided in large measure by the work of the Committee to Defend America by Aiding the Allies.

The United States joined Canada in a Mutual Board of Defense, and aligned with the Latin American republics in extending collective protection to the nations in the Western Hemisphere. Congress, confronted with the mounting crisis, voted immense sums for rearmament, and in September 1940 passed the first peacetime conscription bill ever enacted in the United States -- albeit by a margin of one vote in the House of Representatives. In early 1941 Congress approved the Lend-Lease Program, which enabled President Roosevelt to transfer arms and equipment to any nation (notably Great Britain, the Soviet Union and China) deemed vital to the defense of the United States. Total Lend-Lease aid by war's end amounted to more than $50,000 million.

The 1940 presidential election campaign demonstrated that the isolationists, while vocal, commanded relatively few followers nationally. Roosevelt's Republican opponent, Wendell Wilkie, lacked a compelling issue since he supported the president's foreign policy, and also agreed with a large part of Roosevelt's domestic program. Thus the November election yielded another majority for Roosevelt. For the first time in U.S. history, a president was elected to a third term.

JAPAN, PEARL HARBOR AND WAR

While most Americans anxiously watched the course of the European war, tension mounted in Asia. Taking advantage of an opportunity to improve its strategic position, Japan boldly announced a "new order" in which it would exercise hegemony over all of the Pacific. Battling for its survival against Nazi Germany, Britain was unable to resist, withdrawing from Shanghai and temporarily closing the Burma Road. In the summer of 1940, Japan won permission from the weak Vichy government in France to use airfields in Indochina. By September the Japanese had joined the Rome-Berlin Axis. As a countermove, the United States imposed an embargo on export of scrap iron to Japan.

It seemed that the Japanese might turn southward toward the oil, tin and rubber of British Malaya and the Dutch East Indies. In July 1941 the Japanese occupied the remainder of Indochina; the United States, in response, froze Japanese assets.

General Hideki Tojo became prime minister of Japan in October 1941. In mid-November, he sent a special envoy to the United States to meet with Secretary of State Cordell Hull. Among other things, Japan demanded that the U.S. release Japanese assets and stop U.S. naval expansion in the Pacific. Hull countered with a proposal for Japanese withdrawal from China and Indochina in exchange for the freeing of the frozen assets. The Japanese asked for two weeks to study the proposal, but on December 1 rejected it. On December 6, Franklin Roosevelt appealed directly to the Japanese emperor, Hirohito. On the morning of December 7, however, Japanese carrier-based planes attacked the U.S. Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, in a devastating, surprise attack. Nineteen ships, including five battleships, and about 150 U.S. planes were destroyed; more than 2,300 soldiers, sailors and civilians were killed. Only one fact favored the Americans that day: the U.S. aircraft carriers that would play such a critical role in the ensuing naval war in the Pacific were at sea and not anchored at Pearl Harbor.

As the details of the Japanese raids upon Hawaii, Midway, Wake and Guam blared from American radios, incredulity turned to anger at what President Roosevelt called "a day that will live in infamy." On December 8, Congress declared a state of war with Japan; three days later Germany and Italy declared war on the United States. The nation rapidly geared itself for mobilization of its people and its entire industrial capacity. On January 6, 1942, President Roosevelt announced staggering production goals: delivery in that year of 60,000 planes, 45,000 tanks, 20,000 antiaircraft guns and 18 million deadweight tons of merchant shipping. All the nation's activities -- farming, manufacturing, mining, trade, labor, investment, communications, even education and cultural undertakings -- were in some fashion brought under new and enlarged controls. The nation raised money in enormous sums and created great new industries for the mass production of ships, armored vehicles and planes. Major movements of population took place. Under a series of conscription acts, the United States brought the armed forces up to a total of 15,100,000. By the end of 1943, approximately 65 million men and women were in uniform or in war-related occupations.

The attack on the United States disarmed the appeal of isolationists and permitted quick military mobilization. However, as a result of Pearl Harbor and the fear of Asian espionage, Americans also committed an act of intolerance: the internment of Japanese-Americans. In February 1942, nearly 120,000 Japanese-Americans residing in California were removed from their homes and interned behind barbed wire in 10 wretched temporary camps, later to be moved to "relocation centers" outside isolated Southwestern towns. Nearly 63 percent of these Japanese-Americans were Nisei -- American-born -- and, therefore, U.S. citizens. No evidence of espionage ever surfaced. In fact, Japanese-Americans from Hawaii and the continental United States fought with noble distinction and valor in two infantry units on the Italian front. Others served as interpreters and translators in the Pacific. In 1983 the U.S. government acknowledged the injustice of internment with limited payments to those Japanese-Americans of that era who were still living.

THE WAR IN NORTH AFRICA AND EUROPE

Soon after the United States entered the war, the western Allies decided that their essential military effort was to be concentrated in Europe, where the core of enemy power lay, while the Pacific theater was to be secondary.

In the spring and summer of 1942, British forces were able to break the German drive aimed at Egypt and push German General Erwin Rommel back into Libya, ending the threat to the Suez Canal, which connected the Mediterranean to the Red Sea.

On November 7, 1942, an American army landed in French North Africa, and after hard-fought battles, inflicted severe defeats on Italian and German armies. The year 1942 was also the turning point on the Eastern Front, where the Soviet Union, suffering immense losses, stopped the Nazi invasion at the gates of Leningrad and Moscow, and defeated the German forces at Stalingrad.

In July 1943 British and American forces invaded Sicily, and by late summer the southern shore of the Mediterranean was cleared of Fascist forces. Allied forces landed on the Italian mainland, and although the Italian government accepted unconditional surrender, fighting against Nazi forces in Italy was bitter and protracted. Rome was not liberated until June 4, 1944. While battles were still raging in Italy, Allied forces made devastating air raids on German railroads, factories and weapon emplacements, including German oil supplies at Ploesti in Romania.

Late in 1943 the Allies, after much debate over strategy, decided to open a Western front to force the Germans to divert far larger forces from the Russian front. U.S. General Dwight D. Eisenhower was appointed Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe. After immense preparations, on June 6, 1944, the first contingents of a U.S., British and Canadian invasion army, protected by a greatly superior air force, landed on the beaches of Normandy in northern France. With the beachhead established after heavy fighting, more troops poured in, and many contingents of German defenders were caught in pockets by pincer movements. The Allied armies began to move across France toward Germany. On August 25 Paris was liberated. At the borders of Germany, the Allies were delayed by stubborn counteraction, but by February and March 1945, troops advanced into Germany from the west, and German armies fell before the Russians in the east. On May 8 all that remained of the Third Reich surrendered its land, sea and air forces.

THE WAR IN THE PACIFIC

In the meantime, U.S. forces were advancing in the Pacific. Although U.S. troops were forced to surrender in the Philippines in early 1942, the Allies rallied in the following months. General James "Jimmy" Doolittle led U.S. army bombers on a raid over Tokyo in April that had little actual military significance, but gave Americans an immense psychological boost. In the Battle of the Coral Sea the following month -- the first naval engagement in history in which all the fighting was done by carrier-based planes -- the Japanese navy incurred such heavy losses that they were forced to give up the idea of striking at Australia. The Battle of Midway in June in the central Pacific Ocean became the turning point for the Allies, resulting in the first major defeat of the Japanese navy, which lost four aircraft carriers, ending the Japanese advance across the central Pacific. Other battles also contributed to Allied success. Guadalcanal, a decisive U.S. victory in November 1942, marked the first major U.S. offensive action in the Pacific. For most of the next two years, American and Australian troops fought their way northward along a central Pacific island "ladder" capturing the Solomons, the Gilberts, the Marshalls, the Marianas and the Bonin Islands in a series of amphibious assaults.

THE POLITICS OF WAR

Allied military efforts were accompanied by a series of important international meetings on the political objectives of the war. The first of these took place in August 1941, before U.S. entry into the war, between President Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill -- at a time when the United States was not yet actively engaged in the struggle and the military situation seemed bleak.

Meeting aboard cruisers near Newfoundland, Canada, Roosevelt and Churchill issued the Atlantic Charter, a statement of purposes in which they endorsed these objectives: no territorial aggrandizement; no territorial changes without the consent of the people concerned; the right of all people to choose their own form of government; the restoration of self-government to those deprived of it; economic collaboration between all nations; freedom from war, from fear and from want for all peoples; freedom of the seas; and the abandonment of the use of force as an instrument of international policy.

In January 1943 at Casablanca, Morocco, an Anglo-American conference decided that no peace would be concluded with the Axis and its Balkan satellites except on the basis of "unconditional surrender." This term, insisted upon by Roosevelt, sought to assure the people of all the fighting nations that no separate peace negotiations would be carried on with representatives of Fascism and Nazism; that no bargain of any kind would be made by such representatives to save any remnant of their power; that before final peace terms could be laid down to the peoples of Germany, Italy and Japan, their military overlords must concede before the entire world their own complete and utter defeat. At Cairo, on November 22, 1943, Roosevelt and Churchill met with Nationalist Chinese leader Chiang Kai-shek to agree on terms for Japan, including the relinquishment of gains from past aggression. At Tehran on November 28, Roosevelt, Churchill and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin agreed to establish a new international organization, the United Nations. In February 1945, they met again at Yalta, with victory seemingly secure, and made further agreements. There, the Soviet Union secretly agreed to enter the war against Japan not long after the surrender of Germany. The eastern boundary of Poland was set roughly at the Curzon line of 1919. After some discussion of heavy reparations to be collected from Germany -- payment demanded by Stalin and opposed by Roosevelt and Churchill -- the decision was deferred. Specific arrangements were made concerning Allied occupation in Germany and the trial and punishment of war criminals. Also at Yalta it was agreed that the powers in the Security Council of the proposed United Nations should have the right of veto in matters affecting their security.

Two months after his return from Yalta, Franklin Roosevelt died of a cerebral hemorrhage while vacationing in Georgia. Few figures in U.S. history have been so deeply mourned, and for a time the American people suffered from a numbing sense of irreparable loss. Vice President Harry Truman, former senator from Missouri, assumed the presidency.



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LOL! "Shock and awe"!! I just wanted to end the goshdarned debate once and for all, if I could! Let's see if it worked!



Originally posted by Django
Nice try, but doesn't cut the mustard.
Sure it does: you're complaining about something that never happened, and doesn't appear as if it's going to, either.


Originally posted by Django
How can you deny documented facts?
Maybe you're starting to rub off on me.


Originally posted by Django
I didn't say that. I said that he is highly influential with Republican policy.
Utterly speculative, but regardless my point is the same: you can't use something Limbaugh says to damn the Republican party.


Originally posted by Django
Well, the fact that the arms industry profits from war is a FACT. The fact that the arms industry contributes heavily to the Republican fund is a FACT.
The first part is correct, but the second part is what I've been asking you to prove. God forbid you actually investigate your own claims once in awhile.


Originally posted by Django
The article is evidence of the fact that Republicans depend highly on campaign contributions from the arms industry. How difficult is this to understand?
I read the article, and it doesn't establish any link between those helping Bush, and those being helped by Bush.


Originally posted by Django
What I said is that my claims are so OBVIOUS that they REQUIRE no confirmation.
By that logic you can avoid backing any claim by stating that it's "obvious." I smell a cop-out. If it's so obvious, then you shouldn't have any trouble proving it.

And if you wanna talk about "fishy," how about the fact that you require personal confirmation for the claims of others, but don't even confirm your own?


Originally posted by Django
More verbal chicanery on your part. I won't bother to address this nonsense.
LOOK. IT. UP.

I ain't gonna let this go.


Originally posted by Django
What, and post another poll, only to be accused of narcissism and self-promotion by you?
If it'll prove to you once and for all that almost everyone thinks you have no idea what you're talking about, I'm all for it.


Originally posted by Django
No comment
Not surprising.


Originally posted by Django
No, it is no exaggeration.
Not only does MY personal experience say otherwise, but the numbers are on my side, too.


Originally posted by Django
I think my "tiny part of the nation" is a fair cross-section of the nation as a whole. Given that I happen to be in one of the more affluent areas of the country, if the situation here is that bad, it has to be at least as bad elsewhere. Are you saying things are better in Mississippi? Or wherever the hell you might be located?
I can't say if things are better here, because I don't live there. I live in Pennsylvania. But I can tell you how things are on a nationwide scale: they ain't too bad. If you say things are awful, there are only three possibilities:

1 - Things are not as bad as you say where you live.
2 - Your area is in worse shape than the majority of the country.
3 - The statistics are wrong.

Go ahead, tell me it's #3. I dare ya'. It'll finally allow me to convince myself that I should stop talking to you.


Originally posted by Django
What I'm saying is that the numbers are DECEPTIVE because they TRIVIALIZE the situation--they omit a number of crucial facts and conceal more than they reveal. They make it appear as if things aren't so bad, whereas, in fact, things are, or, at least, have been VERY bad.
They can't trivialize things. They're numbers, not people. They have no emotion. What crucial data is being omitted, pray tell?

Oh, and if things are so God-awful, why has the GDP been rising every quarter for the last two years or so?


Originally posted by Django
First of all, Keynes happens to be the single most important figure in the entire field of Economics
Adam Smith was (and is) far more important, but we're discussing validity, not popularity.


Originally posted by Django
you cannot dismiss Keynes without dismissing all of Economics altogether.
Nonsense. He is not the embodiment of economics. I don't have to dismiss all economic theory if I think he's wrong anymore than you'd have to dismiss all of religion if you don't believe in Buddha.


Originally posted by Django
Secondly, I want quotations, please. Exactly where does Keynes say "nothing is coming"?
The Keynesian theory says that all the private sector does is react to demand...it never creates it. You said the same when defining this philosophy earlier in the thread.

"The private sector operates on the law of demand and supply--it only reacts to an existing demand, never creates a demand."

This can only be true, logically, if you operate under the assumption that no new products will be created. Under the Keynesian view of things, a business operates with a static stable of products and therefore needs do nothing more than decide how much of each thing to produce. In reality, business is also about creating new products and improving old ones, thus effecting and creating demand.


Originally posted by Django
Well, the downward spiral clearly demonstrates that supply follows demand and not vice versa. It shows how a drop in consumer confidence, after the dot-com bubble burst, has led to a decline in demand, which has led to a decline in supply. Pure Keynes, if you ask me.
So those six consecutive interest rate hikes had nothing to do with it?


Originally posted by Django
Au contraire, by boosting consumer confidence in the short-term and, thereby, boosting demand, it certainly does have long-term value. With a rise in demand, there is a rise in supply, which boosts the economy.
Ask yourself this: how are any of us any better off by the fact that you swapped, say, $5,000 for a used car? Explain to me how we, as a people, are any richer because those two things have simply changed hands?


Originally posted by Django
The depression took place from 1930 - 1939. The war ended in 1945. FDR was President from 1933 - 1945. Please check your facts.
Ignoring the fact that The Great Depression was not a defined event that took place during a certain number of years, we need not be in a GREAT depression to be in a depression. We were in a recession for virtually all of FDR's term...a very, very long term, I might add, as the Twenty-Second Amendment was not yet in existence.


Originally posted by Django
Here's some interesting material about the Great Depression and FDR's "New Deal":
Congratulations, you can copy and paste. What's more, you can copy and paste long blocks of text, some of which contain unsupported assumptions.



Here is some interesting information regarding the migration of the Humpback whale. I think it will answer in questions you may have regarding war profiteering.

Most North Pacific humpback whales begin their annual migrations from the Gulf of Alaska in early fall.

What results is an exodus to three primary locations in the southern latitudes of the North Pacific. One group will travel to the coast of Baja in Mexico. Another will migrate to a group of islands south east of Japan. But the largest population (over 60%) will find themselves in the Hawaiian Islands, a distance of nearly 3500 miles from their feeding grounds in Alaska. This migration takes the humpback approximately 4 to 8 weeks to complete.

The majority of the humpbacks that travel to Hawaii end up in the waters off Maui. It is a "trickle migration with the juveniles usually arriving first, followed by the adult males, adult females, then the pregnant females.
__________________
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Goodness, you boys have been busy in here.... I'd rather read something that I can "escape" to....



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Yoda

I meant that I had no argument with what you were saying. I don't think the war is insignificant...but it's certainly not large as far as wars go. At least not yet.
Yeah well, sure. But a war is always a war.

According to data released by the Federal Election Commission in late April, Bechtel Group Inc. contributed a bit over $6,000 to President Bush. Pretty small potatoes.

As for Gore: it's kinda confusing, because there's just loads of raw data in some places. I'm not seeing anything for Gore so far, so let's assume they gave him nothing until I find something.


That's the conclusion I drew as well.

True. But I don't think that crucifies anyone. You have to consider which is the cause, and which is the effect. Example: does Bush adopt certain policies to please those who contribute to him, or do people contribute to him because they agree with the policies he adopts? Nothing at all shady about the latter.
I think for example that maybe Bush's decision to pull back from the Kyoto Protocol was a payback to his old friends in the oil industry. But more than anything it was an act done by a man of the oil industry, something that he probably really wanted to do. As a man of the oil industry he strongly disagreed with the Kyoto Protocol, and his ex-colleagues know this and that's why they support him.

When it comes to this Bechtel Group matter it is not so much the "favour done in return"-factor that bothers me. It is the fact that the president elects buddies from the business world to work for him as advisors, and then the government give the companies the buddies represent fat orders. I think that in a democracy the trade & industry should be, as far as possible, seperated from the state. I believe though that during recent years USA has moved towards some kind of weird capitalistic monopoly. You see this clearly especially when you study the media business which involves fewer and fewer but bigger and bigger corporations with mightier and mightier owners. And this Bechtel Group business is an indicator of that the same thing goes on in the construction business. If I've got my facts straight I understand that the Republican Party works for geting rid of the laws that protect the free market from elephant conglomerats monopolizing the businesses. That's just capitalism's equivalent to planned economy.

Well, reading the newspaper's more than a lot of Americans do, sorry to say.
That is kind of saddening... Not so much better in Sweden though...


That's tough to figure out, because they divide them by industry, and by individual donor, but I haven't found any option to view the top donors for each specific industry.
Can you tell me the top ten donors period? Or give me a link to where you get this information. Can you see the same figures for the democrats there too?

I do know, however, that the six companies asked to submit bids by the U.S. Government contributed a grand total of $32,427 to Bush's campaign. In other words: damn near nothing. He got most of his contributions from the real estate and financial markets...so whether you like him or not, I think it's difficult to make the case that his candidacy was propped up by oil and construction (not that you were making that claim).
My skepticism about this has not so much to do about Bush or the size of the donations than about my thoughts about government - business world relations.

Do you know to what extent the Bechtel Group supports the republicans locally?



I will return to decimate your pathetic arguments later, dumbhead!
__________________
I am still laughing at you!



Django's Avatar
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I'll be back to address the rest of the comments later, but I can't let this one pass by:

Originally posted by Yoda

The Keynesian theory says that all the private sector does is react to demand...it never creates it. You said the same when defining this philosophy earlier in the thread.

"The private sector operates on the law of demand and supply--it only reacts to an existing demand, never creates a demand."

This can only be true, logically, if you operate under the assumption that no new products will be created. Under the Keynesian view of things, a business operates with a static stable of products and therefore needs do nothing more than decide how much of each thing to produce. In reality, business is also about creating new products and improving old ones, thus effecting and creating demand.
WRONG!!!!!
What Keynesian theory say is OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, the private sector only reacts to an existing demand, never creates a demand. What this assumes is that all extraneous factors, such as innovation, the weather, population, etc., remain CONSTANT during the course of the operation of this theory. This is, in fact, completely true, as common experience should suggest to anyone with half a brain.

Yoda, your error is a common one among the ignorant who fail to adequately study the subject at hand, preferring, instead, to jump to flawed conclusions based on erroneous assumptions!

My suggestion to you--study your material a little more carefully!



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Originally posted by Dwango
I will return to decimate your pathetic arguments later, dumbhead!
Matt/Silver Bullet, your childish antics are quickly becoming increasingly tiresome. My recommedation to you: try growing up.



Originally posted by Django
What Keynesian theory say is OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, the private sector only reacts to an existing demand, never creates a demand.
Substitute "equal" for "nonexistent" and you'd be right.

The private sector never creates a demand...unless it does. What a kickass theory!


Originally posted by Django
What this assumes is that all extraneous factors, such as innovation, the weather, population, etc., remain CONSTANT during the course of the operation of this theory.
We don't live in an economic vacuum. An economic theory that only works if the stable of products is utterly static has no footing in reality at all. We're not just talking hydrogen-powered cars here.



Matt/Silver Bullet, your childish antics are quickly becoming increasingly tiresome. My recommedation to you: try growing up.
I'm NOT Dwango! Holy crap.
How many times do I have to say it?



The Mad Prophet of the Movie Forums
I am Dwango! Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!










No...wait....no I'm not. Thats The Silver Bullet.
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Originally posted by Yoda

Substitute "equal" for "nonexistent" and you'd be right.

The private sector never creates a demand...unless it does. What a kickass theory!

We don't live in an economic vacuum. An economic theory that only works if the stable of products is utterly static has no footing in reality at all. We're not just talking hydrogen-powered cars here.
Basically, Yoda, when you conduct a scientific experiment, what you do is create a controlled environment and isolate certain variables--namely those whose reactions you are testing. The same principle applies here. When you say "other things being equal", i.e. constant, what you are doing is assuming an artificial controlled environment in which, hypothetically, all other factors remain unchanged. This is, of course, never the case in real life, but is a necessary assumption to make for any economic theory. What Keynes says, therefore, is that if you discount all other factors, such as innovation, the weather, population, etc., assuming that they remain constant for a particular duration of time, you will find that supply always follows demand. Thus, Keynesian theory only holds true, strictly speaking, for such an artificially controlled environment, and is only approximately true in real life--and this is true for all economic theories--they only hold true, strictly speaking, for their own artificially controlled environments, and are only approximately true in real life. I hope that clarifies the problem.