Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Hey guys. I apologize in advance if this has been asked here before (or if this post is not appropriate for this part of the forum), but I'm doing some research right now and I could use your help.

I've got this idea for a digital distribution platform for movies/TV shows. Whereas most of the industry sees piracy as a threat, I think it's merely a service problem - one that could be solved if they were an affordable, convenient alternative. But I want to get some opinions to see if I'm on the right track. So I'll just ask a simple question:

Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

There is no real appropriate place for this on these forums. The subject is pretty taboo around here, and I don't think you'll even find many people who partake in this.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Unless the board rules have changed, we are allowed to talk about the legality and morality of downloading movies. But we are not allowed to mention the names of illegal download sites. There has been post with links to public domain sites that only have legal to watch/download movies. There has been several threads about this too, I just read them a few days ago.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/rules.php

Back to the original post:

First you have define: what is pirating?

The laws very from country to country and watching a streaming movie is legally different than downloading a movie. If you're a cable subscriber many of the premium cable channels actually have web sites for legitimate watching of the same shows they have on cable.

Then there's the question about copyright laws, many really old films are in the public domain and can be legally downloaded. There's even a difference between using the download button on a streaming movie web site vs downloading by a bit torrent.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I was referring to downloading via a bit torrent.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Simple question: "What if I go at cinema and i don't like the movie?"

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

OP might be an FBI man :)

Then you lost a week's salary for a bad movie.... :(

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Yeah, to be clear: people are more than free to discuss the issue in general. We just draw the line at publicly sharing links and how-tos and all that.

Piracy is pretty widespread even for things that people can easily and quickly purchase legally online, so I don't think convenience or affordability is the issue.

I think it's pretty clear why people do it: they want a thing, and they can get it for free with very little risk. People will throw out rationalizations beyond that, but the overwhelming majority of piracy is just simple opportunism.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Or if you have a passion for cinema and no money. I watched 260 films last year, many of them new releases. That's around a £2,600 bluray bill. I use Netflix and still buy physical media, but only films I really like.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

There have been cases of people being warned by their ISPs to stop illegal download activity. For those who don't stop the ISP can cut off their service. Has anybody here ever received a warning?

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I've never received a warning and I've downloaded countless terabytes. ISPs only cut off rippers and uploaders now. Torrent traffic accounts for about 70% of all net traffic, so banning People for downloading a few films would be a bad business move for them.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

There are a lot of different ways to approach this topic, but I'll go with: Because I got permission by the creators.

My favorite movie, Ink, never got picked up by publishers so the creators distributed it in-house. After it got pirated, they saw a huge leap in attention and sales and so, admitting that the topic was complex, they said they just want people to see the movie.

I saw it, loved it, bought multiple copies of it off their official website and even paid to watch their next movie through their preferred streaming service.

And I shared that torrent to a couple dozen other people too.

Convenience.

-It can be done easily, and instantly at home. You can have a movie ready to watch in 5 minutes. For somebody like me who lives around 10-15 km from the nearest decent theater and doesn't have a driving license in a city where public transport sucks, it is quite convenient.

-You don't depend on the criteria of distributors to decide what to watch, which is very comfortable specially if your picks are random and/or varied, which happens to be my case, and if you don't focus too much on the newest stuff, which also happens to be my case.

-If you know well your sources you can find the highest quality and have full control of it in the file you get. I pay a yearly subscription on a video on demand platform and I try to make use of it whenever possible, because it's quite easy to use and has a catalog I find really interesting, with lots of classics and independent stuff. But sometimes it turns that the video quality of the stream is way lower compared with a pirated file I had downloaded before. Recently it happened to me with Black narcissus, for instance. If you have watched the film you know how essential the visuals in it are.

-Money. Quite obvious one I think.

Seconded.

Many foreign movies are never localized and most platforms keep their catalog predominantly recent in terms of release date because the matter of renewing the licenses for increasingly unpopular titles suffers from diminishing returns.

Affordability is a significant part of the issue in Australia. Due to restrictions we pay much higher rates then you. We have to geododge to get access to any of the American services to watch our shows on time and reasonably priced. While geo-dodging in Australia is not illegal is does violate a lot of sites (eg Netflix, HBO, etc) terms of service so if you get caught you get shut out. People are typically willing to pay but sometimes these services won't let us.

The was a quick report done by our B-grade version of John Oliver which sums up really well (and slightly entertainingly) the issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRdw15eWOgY

I think many people who pirate stuff end up buying the original stuff as well. So they become even greater consumers.

Thumbs up for using the term diminish ing return s.

If I download music and end up liking it, I buy the record. I'd imagine not many people do that. Another example would be me using Spotify and using it to mine out the good records from the bad so I can end up purchasing it and stacking it in the collection.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

What's geododging? Is that like using a proxy to hide your location?

Many do, but it's worth considering the significant portion that don't. I put a lot of stock into physical copies, but I'm constantly meeting people who tell me, "Why bother when you can download it?". This isn't just in regards to piracy either, the mentality includes even regular Netflix users. Why buy the DVD when I can stream it any time I want through Netflix?

This actually kinda feeds into the issue of secondhand distributors where people buy the product and then sell it to someone else later (read as eBay). History's shown that even THIS gets under the skin of greedy monopolistic companies.

I can has big words.

Actually, in regards to "greedy monopolistic companies", we run into the issue of region codes too. Black Rock Shooter turns out to be one of my favorite animes, but because of that "diminishing returns" thing, it was never localized in English outside of Japan or the UK (where it got subtitles). I really want a physical copy, so I buy the UK version, but because it's region-locked to only work with region-specific DVD players I have to PLAY IT ON MY COMPUTER ANYWAY.

Those region codes don't exist for any reason other than to mask a false dilemma involving uncontrolled imports, so it's worth considering another reason why people pirate movies: DRM. Which is ironic because DRM supposedly exists to prevent piracy.

That's the whole reason I use Spotify.

For me, it's not just affordability and ease. It's quality. I'm a quality freak.

First things first, I live in Poland, and in here pretty much the only decent way of seeing a movie (that isn't playing in cinemas at the moment) is buying the blu-ray (which is pricey).

Of course, you would say: "what about the streaming services?". Well here is the simple truth: Not everything is available there and the stuff that is you have to watch via an embedded player in your browser. I will never, ever accept that.

I need to have my own player. A browser-based HTML5 or Flash player will not give you the same quality, reliability and efficiency a proper dedicated player does.

My weapon of choice is Media Player Classic Home Cinema. At first glance it may look simple. Make no mistake, though, it's a properly advanced movie watching combine. You can change pretty much every aspect of your movie watching experience and that's where quality-enhancing addons come in. Most importantly, you can change your video rendering engine (which is an option I've never seen in even the best browser players). I use MadVR. As far as I know, no other engine comes close to the quality you get from it. Also, I can use whatever codecs I want, which is nice because I want to use CoreAVC, which allow me to take advantage of the CUDA cores on my gfx card to boost the performance during movie playback, as well as set a bunch of things up to my liking in the codec config tool.

Sound is also important. There is a difference. For most people it's indistinguishable but I know it's there. I once made a short clip with a very low-frequency sound and it played great via MPC but once I uploaded it to YouTube, the sound turned into farting because of the processing that takes place after a video is uploaded (which is also the reason why I roll my eyes with disappointment whenever I see someone listening to music off YouTube).

Then, there's the matter of efficiency. When you're watching a movie on netflix, the content has to go through not only the player, but the browser as well. Today's browsers are resource hogs. They inhibit the performance of playback, which may not be noticeable if you have a fairly good PC but if you want to watch something on a low-end or old machine, you can forget about fluid playback. (btw. CoreAVC codecs paired with the Mixer Overlay rendering engine allow me to play 1080p content fluently... on my netbook. Try doing that with Netflix's player.)

Now, another argument you might have is that if I'm such a quality freak, why do I accept ripped movies? Well, let's just say I have enough experience to know which uploads are good quality and which are not. Also, there are 1:1 quality blu-ray rips out there, in which the quality is indistinguishable from the source disc even to my eyes (those are tens of gigabytes, though). Also, those releases aren't any different from how Netflix does it. It's not like every time you want to see a film on there a robotic arm pops in a blu-ray disc into the drive and starts streaming. No, those are ripped files too. Only you have to pay for them, and you don't get to keep them, and you don't get to play them how you want.

So, in essence, there just isn't a market for people like me right now. Here's your chance. Do what GoG did for gaming. Create a platform that, upon a small payment, allows you to actually download the file with the movie and keep it and play it however you want. Until something like that comes around... it's the old yo ho and a bottle of rum for me.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

*raises eyebrows*

>_>

Gotta admit, having "quality standards" is probably the weakest argument for digital piracy I've ever heard.

They're not ripped files, they're raw files.

There you go, I can get behind that.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I wonder if people who can afford the movies and music still download, etc...

I would rather someone download my music for free than not listen to it at all - my primary goal is to share, and hope it gave someone the feeling I got when I listen to Pink Floyd, etc.. And when I make money from it, it's a bonus, but of course I'd love to sell more books, etc..

I also find out comparing things over time that the 3-4 songs I downloaded in 9th grade contributed to paying out thousands of dollars to just one band, mostly live concerts... Even torrents make money off advertisement.

I don't care for the people who already have money; Metallica isn't homeless because of Napster. I'm also guessing an up-and-comer isn't going to be left behind because someone downloaded their stuff for free. If anything, I think it brings more attention. Word of mouth is priceless. I think it's all about probability (and illusion) and that the more people give a certain movie or song a chance, the more fans you'll have.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

That would be a yes.

Same here. I make stuff too and I just share it for free. Really, there should be better ways of supporting artists nowadays (I mean as opposed to totally gating people off with paywalls). Stuff like Patreon feels like a big step in the right direction.

There's a thought.

This makes me think of that Spotify knock-off that rolled around some time ago (I forget what it's called I think it's shut down now). The idea was that it worked exactly like Spotify, except instead of taking it's catalog of songs from an official source, it directly linked to the audio files in Youtube videos.

This is 100% TOTALLY LEGAL, but everyone crawled up their ass about it.

That's the thing about copyright law, it's a big hot mess of bureaucratic ********. You're not allowed to make digital copies of unlicensed copyrighted material, right? But you DO THAT every single time you watch a video on Youtube because your browser always caches that information on your computer (unless you tell it not to). And no one's condemning Youtube, these same companies heavily exploit Youtube for profit, so what it comes down to where we draw the line in the sand, and no matter what it is, it's always arbitrary.

Where we draw the line at WHAT COUNTS as copyrighted material is arbitrary too.

Companies like Fine Bros. and King wanting to trademark words like "Reaction" and "Candy", and having actual avenues to do so, are evidence of an unstable exploitable system of intellectual property management.

Movies are different than songs, the startup costs are much higher for movies. I recall Adkins complaining about Undisputed not making money despite being very popular.

Yeah pretty much. For example our local Netflix contains around 6000 fewer titles then the US version but is around the same price. So while it's not technically piracy to use a VPN (to trick netflix into thinking you are in the US) it is against Netflix Terms of Service and if caught will cancel your membership.

To watch Game of Thrones we can only wait until it is on DVD or purchase a $30 a month subscription to Foxtel.

Australian's are apparently some of the worst pirates in the world but to access things legally are either expensive or significantly later then the rest of the world or international providers just kick us off and don't want our money.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

That's some righteous ********. You should never have to do that.

Australia's strict censorship laws also gimp what little actually does make it your corner of the world too.

What censorship laws are you referring? Outside of things that would be considered an X18+ material we are allowed the same as most (which the law enforcement agencies who are responsible to it are pretty much turning a blind eye to most of it I believe)

The problem is licensing. Big companies can afford to tie up exclusive broadcasting rights to popular content and events. Which may have been fine pre-high speed internet but now there is no reason I can see why if I want to watch HBO, I should have access to purchase HBO without going through Foxtel who give me 20 channel's I don't want for a price up to 3x what anyone else is paying.

Luckily with the arrival of SVOD services such a Netflix, Presto and Stan (basically an Australian owned Netflix) competition is putting pressure on distributors to not make exclusive deals for their shows or movies. Some are even investigating doing their own channels in Australia. I currently pay for Netflix & WWE Network which provides me with a lot of nightly entertainment and while I am willing to pay, I am not willing to pay premium pricing because of my postcode which I think is seriously hurting companies in lost opportunities for additional revenue.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I used to pirate a lot of stuff when I was broke. Now I have a good job, so I buy lots of stuff.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I've seen a variety of things localized for Australia only after it's been meddled with (though mainly video games, those get pirated too).

The kind of censorship that plagues Japanese to American localizations is reputably worse in Australia.

Left 4 Dead 2 is a notoriously obnoxious example.

Things have improved though, from what I hear, but regional censorship is another reason for piracy. Most Americans don't know Sailor Moon had lesbian characters because censorship took the gay away.

Yes we have progressed in that way though in recent years. We have added a R rating for games and most games aren't modified anymore and if they are not in any way that I think really impacts their enjoyment factor. I would certainly put localization versions on the lowest possible end of reasons why people in general choose to pirate

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

The LOWEST possible end? I don't think you know how much hate 4Kids gets.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Oh I get it. I'm just saying that if you look at pirates and ask them for the first reason they pirate I would assume majorities first response would be price or to access the content on time before they would say I want to see Yami Yugi kill some folks in Japanese.

Well yeah, it's by no means a typical reason, but I've heard much worse.

DRM is significantly more common, frankly. And I have no doubts the ability to watch any movie with subtitles in your language helps too.

Sorry, forgot to reply to this.

That's certainly a good reason, but that's how much it would cost to own the films. Just seeing them would be a lot less; practically nothing, if you're willing to wait a bit.

Meaning...?

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Meaning eventually nearly all of these films are included in streaming packages for very little, or available to rent for very little. Also meaning that a lot of the arguments for piracy include the unstated assumption that they must see the films as soon as possible.

Gotcha.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I've only ever had a couple pirated films in my life and they were given to me by friends.
The last one I had was about 15 years ago.


I'm a stalwart hater of pirated movies. Pirated films are the reason ticket prices are so high, and quality is so low in the movie business (along with corporate greed of course). They're also the reason some of the rare decent movies never get the sequels they deserve.
I hate pirated films with a passion.

Do you blame airport food prices on pirated movies too?

No, but if millions of people were stealing first class tickets and flying for free every day that as with any business there would be a need to try and recoup those losses in some way to keep the planes flying.

But that's not the case and airport prices are beyond ridiculous. That's my point.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

There is an oppurunity cost to piracy. i pirate super rare stuff usually and DVR/rent other stuff. Tv series is an exception, but i watch more on tv than i ever did.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

They need to stop making DVDs for critics or award judges unless its a movie already released to the public on DVD. That indulgence theyve granted themselves has cost them hundreds of millions of dollars in ticket sales overall.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Maybe they just shouldn't do pre-screenings/pre-release copies period.

But not because of piracy, because they make no sense.

Don't forget the jews!

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I hope you're joking.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I usually buy at least half the movies I like, but there is no good reason I should pay for everything I see when all I gotta do is download a torrent and have it in front of me within minutes.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

It's justified because it's convenient can be used to excuse any manner of crimes.

I don't have to justify it.

You are justifying it when you say "there is no good reason I should pay for everything I see when all I gotta do is download a torrent".

Your argument is based entirely on convenience.

Okay then. No one is being hurt when I do this so it doesn't really matter. All I'm doing is grabbing a free movie that someone else put on there. Shouldn't even count as a crime.

The movie theater industry may have been destroyed by the price increases the studios laid out to cover the losses. Big tobacco did the same thing when they had to pay billions in restitution, and the studios arent hurt because they raised their prices accordingly (not that they first did anything wrong to cause their problem).

No I dont consider someone a criminal if they download a movie and watch it. Honestly I think thats more on the studios for not really trying to correct the problem. I do think it goes to a criminal act if youre making money off it by selling copies.

Of course they are: there's an entire industry of people producing incredibly expensive movies at a very high rate precisely because people pay to see them. Anything which lowers the amount of money paid to see these movies hurts the people in the industry. Or do you think people would still be making $200 million blockbusters if everybody just torrented them? :skeptical:

First, we're talking about creative property, which means it's the viewing that causes the harm, not the mere uploading.

Second, this is a legalistic argument, not a moral one. "They shouldn't be able to charge me" is not the same as "this isn't wrong."

Third, it's not even a valid legalistic argument, because there are already laws against receiving stolen property.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

That's like saying "I drive without insurance, and if I crash my car into a supermarket it doesn't matter because nobody was hurt. It's just the building"

The movie theater industry is not destroyed. They are making more money than ever. And it isn't just ticket prices, people are going to see movies more than ever.

Well people have been torrenting these blockbusters for years now. They still make many of them every year, people still see them and they still makes tons of money. So far, it doesn't seem to be having a huge negative effect on them.

That makes no sense.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Copyright law is a busted system in more countries than one, especially when it comes to digital media which I feel shouldn't be held to the same standards as physical media.

I'm flattered.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I agree.

SO FAR, but consider the extremes as Yoda implied. Just because something's working "so far" doesn't mean it'll always work or is even justified to begin with.

You gotta put more thought into this if you intend to contend with copyright law.

No, hardly. Youre confusing how much money the movies are making to attendance, and since prices are higher, MUCH higher, theyre making money. Less people go to the theaters though than ever before.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

A number of movies suffered from morons downloading them.


A prime example is Kick Ass 2. Ok, maybe not the best movie, but it was set up for a 3rd movie at the end.


The 3rd movie, is not going to happen... because it was leaked online and dickheads decided to download it rather than go to the cinema. The movie bombed... now there's no sequel.


Look at something like Avatar... imagine if the same had happened to that.
Or LOTR.
Star Wars 7 as well.


The movie business would shut down eventually.


All because of dickheads with the attitude of "it's only once" and "it doesn't hurt anyone if I just do this one".


I hate pirate copies. There was a guy I know offering them to people in the pub... he then came over to me, knowing I'm a movie fan... he's never bothered doing it again since after I was finished with him.

Because people still buy tickets and don't torrent everything. But if everyone torrented everything, the industry would be destroyed, right? If you admit that, then you've already agreed in principle that torrenting harms the industry, you're just quibbling over how much.

The comparison is not what they make now to what they made before, it's what they make now to what they would make if nobody torrented.

Again, we're talking about a counterfactual: the less money spent on movies, the fewer we get. The fact that we have a lot in no way refutes the idea that the industry is worse than it would be.

At any size, the movie industry has films that are on the cusp of making financial sense. Therefore, any dollar that goes into or out of the industry affects how many movies are made, and how much money is spent on them. Which in turn affects how many people work on the crew (normal people, mind you). This is really basic economics.

What makes no sense is the idea that the movie industry is magically immune to people who decide not to buy their products as often.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I'm a movie fan, I watch many movies. If I were to pay for all those I would be homeless...

That said, I don't think I'm the one bad guy to hunt down. I'm one of those who actually still buy physical movies, mostly movies I like, but sometimes I take a chance too. I also rent on rare occasions. And I never download cam copies or whatever, so if I'm doing anything, I'm not ruining cinema. If I want to see a film, I'll go.

I once recorded a lot on tv, to minimize the so-called illigal downloads. But I got tired of watching poorer quality with logos and pop-ups and commercials every five minutes. As I said, I'm a movie fan, so I'll support where I can, but I rate the quality of my viewing experience high and I don't want to compromize.

This sounds like an unbiased argument.

Yap.

Mmhm.

Yeaaaaaahhh...

Jeez, Rodent, I can't tell what side you're on!

Aye, it's a system in need of reform, and any arguments based on pretending creative goods are finite like physical ones is specious. But they're also not without value, and in my experience a lot of people just quickly knock down the borderline straw man comparisons to physical media and then consider the practice defended, without really delving into all the other (much better) arguments against it.

Let's leave aside the implication that we ought to be able to indulge our hobbies/entertainment preferences without much functional limit...wouldn't this still be remedied by just not needing to see all these movies immediately after release? After awhile, movies are extraordinarily cheap. A Netflix membership can end up costing pennies a rental if you use it often enough.

I'm not trying to come down on anyone, but a lot of the arguments which imply there's no other choice are really leaving out all the assumptions underneath, and "I ought to be able to see new movies right away" sounds a good deal less reasonable than saying you have to choose between your love of cinema and having a home. ;)

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Anyone who believes that pirating movies is always wrong is free to contend with the points I've made earlier in this thread.

I think I should put a "(sarcasm)" thinguie in these posts.

There is no reason to pirate movies that already are no Netflix. However I think that when I am downloading movies like Bashu: The Little Stranger (1986) made in Iran and never actually distributed outside of Iran, does not harm the Iranian movie industry. In fact, if there were millions of westerners downloading Iranian movies after a while Netflix and Hulu would take notice and license it to begin to stream it.

Anime torrent sites have a policy of only allowing torrents of anime titles that have not been licensed in the west and today thanks to streaming services most people don't download series anymore.

Also, the new movies pirated have pretty low quality in video and audio.

You are making a copy of something whose creator has not allowed you to do so: it's like this, you write a book and sell copies of it under the condition that your clients will not make additional copies of it.

When you pirate your are violating the terms of the contract. So it is technically a crime.

I can think of several. Netflix is no universal solution.

It's more that they have legal loopholes that give them an easy out when the angry emails arrive than they get localized.

No, it's like this, bear with me and try this little thought experiment, will you? Watch this short video clip:

NOW, unless you've personalized your browser in just such a way as to prevent caching, which all browsers are designed to do by default, you just downloaded that video. It is copied. Maybe not in the same format, and maybe not in it's entirety, but it's still a string of data saved on your computer for the purposes of reference and reduced load times should you revisit the page in the future.

Your computer does this all the time and you may even do it yourself unknowingly, if, say for example, you downloaded that avatar of yours, Guap, you now possess a copy, albeit a piece, of a licensed creative material which you do not own. Vinland Saga is indeed a visual work, yes? Is this not a public demonstration of sorts? What's the distinction between presented something you do not own in pieces as opposed to something like manga scanned into a reading site?

Each page of the book is out of it's native format and separated into different webpages and those sites are routinely subject to your licensing exception. What difference does it make if they're not all there? What difference does it make if you're only using part of a creative work you do not own, or have permission for, to present as an avatar? Let alone download it (which I guarantee you've done intentionally or not).

Similarly, if the medium through which creative material is exchanged doesn't matter, then why are we not culpable for repeating songs in our own voices? We're still copying someone. What of poems? What of speeches? What of regular dialog? AT WHAT POINT can something even be considered creative material?

If I wear a t-shirt with a graphical design I didn't make and someone takes a photo of me, the graphic design on that t-shirt is being copied into another visual format. Is that infringing on copyright? Why not? What's the distinction?

Patents can be legally placed on low-complexity combinations of elements so even strings of code can be considered copyrighted, but those strings don't even need include anything intentionally creative, they need merely be arbitrarily complex enough to be handwaved into legal protection.

Consider: Can you copyright this?

Maybe these movies wouldn't be "incredibly expensive" if they would stop paying people like Johnny Depp $20 million to star in bad movies like the 2013 version of The Lone Ranger. (According to IMDB, he was paid $50,000,000 for the crappy 2010 version of Alice in Wonderland.) If they would pay the actors the same wages that normal people get for doing their job, maybe the movies wouldn't be so expensive to make.

Plus, the movie industry is one of the few industries where they can make a bad product, and there's no money back guarantee. No matter how bad the movie is, you can't get your money back from the movie theater after you've watched the movie, you can't get your money back from the store after you've opened the DVD, and you can't get your time back after you've wasted it watching a terrible movie.

Dammit, GBG, like that movie wasn't disappointment enough!

Well, they'd certainly be less expensive, but a) that's not the bulk of the costs and b) whether or not you and I care about movie stars, most ordinary moviegoers do. If they're not using movie stars to attract more casual moviegoers, then they're achieving smaller audiences to begin with, and we get lower production values in general.

And most of the people involved aren't, you know, trying make bad movies, or trying to overpay movie stars. We can always say in retrospect which movies someone like Depp is indispensable to (Pirates of the Caribbean), but not so much beforehand. And it's not as if torrenters are only torrenting these kinds of films, or paying a lower amount commensurate with whatever salaries they have personally (with no stake in the film) deemed to be excessive. What generally happens is one hypothetical, like this, is used as ethical cover to torrent things where it doesn't apply.

Of course: because they can't "take back" the experience. But we all know that going in. And the next time I meet a torrenter who always pays for a film they've downloaded if they like it, I'm pretty sure they'll be the first.

I wouldn't go that far. But I do think there's a difference between defending the practice and constructing hypotheticals where it's at least ethically murky. Instead, what we get is: "what about this out of print Brazilian art house film you can't purchase anywhere and which the director encouraged people to download? Oh and while I'm there I might as well grab Interstellar."

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Low budget! Low budget! Low budget!

I'm not really purely talking new releases. It's just movies in general.

I would actually say that 8/10 of the movies I watch aren't new releases (and quite often not easy to get a hold of either). And since Netflix and such still aren't that strong outside the US (at least not here in DK), I don't feel like paying almost $20 for a membership that gives me 90% movies I have already seen.

If there was a place for me to get top quality and a huge selection of films I would definitely commit to that. And I would even pay like $50-60 dollars for it a month tbh... But there just isn't anything good enough available yet imo.

And yes, I guess you could say it all comes down to a hobby or entertainment and that isn't a worthy reason to download free stuff just for pure pleasurements. But hey, that's just how I do it. And as I said, I'm far from the biggest sinner in this area. Not that it really objectively makes me less guilty, but subjectively I don't see myself as the biggest problem. I'm just enjoying what the Robin Hoods of movie uploaders have to offer - and if anything they are more guilty than me. And if that's still not good enough, then hey, I'm guiltly as charged..... but I do like my "guilty pleasures". ;)

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Yeah I pretty much practice what MovieMeditation does. I love Ray Donovan but I aint paying Showtime $100 a year to see 12 hrs of material. Make Ray Donovan an individual PPV option, and theyd make even more bank. The industry simply will not respond to the problem.

Analogy - a warehouse full of goods is broken into by burglars that drove a van thru a wall. Big ol hole in the wall and anyone walking by could just grab stuff. The company that owns the warehouse raises their prices to cover the losses, but never fixes the hole in the wall because theres no way they ever want to lower their prices again. The company is not suffering - whatsoever, but the stores that sell that companies warehouse products go out of business i.e. small theaters crumble. So the company purposefully ignoring an obvious true solution to the problem, the only ones with the resources to solve the problem, should be taking the blame now for not fixing that hole years ago. Not the people walking by grabbing free stuff from it, thats minor compared to the profits the company made.

*laughs* That's very different. I'm just making a case for modern copyright law as untenable.

I don't object to the idea of copyright, but the incarnation of it that exists now is ridiculous, especially when this happens: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...29/3678851.htm

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Oh yeah, I agree. We need to adjust the laws for digital media somehow. I'm just poking fun at people's psychological tendency to use a valid complaint to cover all use cases, even the ones not really about that complaint.

Tangentially, it's an odd experience walking into a barbershop and seeing a whole lot of bootleg DVDs just sitting under a glass countertop not several meters from a security booth.

Actually actors make that enormous amount of money because people are willing to pay: 100 million people are wiling to pay 6 dollars to see Johnny Deep, that's 600 million dollars, about 40% of that goes to the studio which justifies spending 240 million dollars in making and advertising a movie staring Johnny Deep, hence he gets paid 50 million dollars for his work.

Famous actors in local film markets like Brazil or Japan, make around 1 million dollars in a movie.

The size of an actor's salary is determined by the size of the market. I guess in a 100 years you will have actors making 1 billion dollars per movie.

That's not how it works, though. If it was then Lone Ranger wouldn't have flopped.

Actors sign contracts prior to the job which establishes their pay up front. It's a combination of studios willing to throw extra money at the actor just to secure that name recognition and the actors standing on higher pay ultimatums. You pay me X or I walk.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I personally think that piracy is great. It is awesome, it is best thing that happened in our culture since printing press.
While I personally do not download movies I do not condemn anyone who does it. And there is simple reason for that- I can afford seeing movies. But many people cannot. Piracy allows poor people to participate in culture, without it they would be excluded from cultural life and the rift beetwen poor and middle class would further extend to language, cultural experience, and even metaphors.

Let's not kid ourselves, it is always better experience to either buy disk with all the cool additional features or go to the cinema, people who have disposable income will do so simply because going out to see movies is a social occasion.

This whole "Look how much industry is loosing because of piracy" is stupid because it rest on the idea that everyone who downloaded the movie would watch it in cinema, it is literally making up numbers.

And yes, I am truly crying because of terrible situation of Hollywood producers and actors, they are truly poor people and industry is clearly dying... oh wait, no it is not, actors get record breaking money for starring in movies and movies themselves generate great amount of money...not exactly dying bussines.

I dunno if you read much of the thread, but pretty much all of those arguments have been addressed to some degree. But here's the executive summary:

Two issues with this, I think:

1) Virtually everyone can afford seeing almost any movie. You mean they can't afford to see them immediately. And let's be honest, seeing some movies a few months later doesn't meaningfully exclude someone from "cultural life." Heck, I run a movie website, and rarely see films in the theaters, and I don't feel excluded at all.

2) Pirating is widespread enough that it obviously isn't done only (or even mostly) by people who can't afford it. But if this is why you think it's ethically justified, does that mean you'd agree it's wrong when not done by someone poor?

Trying to put an exact number on it is silly, yes, but it's also silly to pretend they're not losing a significant amount on it, whatever the specific figure is.

Profit isn't binary. I'll reproduce what I said earlier in the thread:

Yes it does, movies are fads, people talk about them for a while and then move to the next one , you are either "in" or you are not.

No, I do not agree it is wrong when done by someone who is not poor. Movies, music, storytelling in general exist to provide joy to people. If your movie fail to do that you do not deserve to be paid. Have you seen street musicians? They play, if you like it you can pay. If do not like it, you don't. Why are movies/music the only things you have to pay in advance. It is like buying cat in a bag. Will I get my money back if I disliked a movie? No.
Let's be frank here, when bard told bad stories he was very hungry bard, it was good system, I think we should return to it, especially now since when it comes to movies we are literally in Star Trek "food replicators" territory. We can make all the copies we want. And people still buy movies they like, they still go to cinemas, for three reasons.
1. Movies are conversational pieces, somebody see a movie on your shelf and can strike up conversation about it.
2. Visual value- nice looking movie looks good on shelf, send message to people who visit you and creates mood.
3. Going out to cinema is a good opportunity to meet with friends.

I am not buying it. Sorry, it is stupid.
Imagine that suddenly you can create a car out of thin air. And boss of the automobile company says "Our losses go into billions, just look at how many people created ferrari's for themselves"...yeah, because every single one of those people would buy your ferrari right?
But even this comparison is not good because pirated movies are just that, movies. People buy disks today for the same reason they buy beautifull editions of books- to own them, to treat themselves or to support the creators, but not to watch them. It is not main motivation.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I can think of two big films that lost a lot of money due to piracy. Expendables III and Wolverine:Origins.


Then again, I think piracy saved people from wasting their money on such things. :p


Also, I think poor people have other things on their minds other than being up to date on pop culture nonsense.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

Because I spend plenty of money on content. The great thing about piracy is that I can support what I love instead of everything I consume, regardless of how terrible it might be. I spend more money on movies and tv shows than 99% of the population, so you'll forgive me if I don't feel bad about pirating.

Studios and companies are screaming into the void because they don't want to adapt to a changing market. The gatekeepers no longer have the power to decide what content makes it to the consumer and how, and they hate this. We can support artists directly instead of giving the corporate middleman his cut.

They can make up as many numbers of "how much money we've lost" but it's meaningless, because the fact that Joe Blow downloaded a movie doesn't mean he won't buy it later, or vice versa.

And you would be quite wrong. Pop culture is living culture, it is what people breath, what they talk about it is even in how they talk. Being unable to recognise specific references is just as damning as going around in old second-hand clothes, it is yet another way for you not to fit in. It is especially painfull for children and teenagers because they want to be "in" on new fads, they want to feel as part of the group. Cultural exclusion is a thing, and it hits with equal strenght for different reason- poor people, and old people . One group could not afford to participate if it was not for piracy and the other cannot participate without someone to teach them about new media, basic computer skills etc.

This sounds like pure theory, to me. I hang out and talk to lots of people, like my siblings, who see more recent films than I do, and I never feel "excluded." And it's not hard to see why: films are a huge part of the culture, but just released films aren't.

The only people for whom this would be a major problem are people whose lives (and the lives of most of their friends) basically revolve around films.

Then why make the distinction in the first place? Either it provides ethical justification, in which case you would agree, or it doesn't, in which case it's irrelevant.

So you agree it's ethically wrong for someone to download a film, enjoy it, and not pay for it?

Because you can't take back the experience of viewing it, obviously. And because you could lie. And the street performer played without demanding money, so that's obviously not equivalent.

Maybe it was, but that's not really the question. The question is whether it's a "good system" to let you unilaterally decide what a good system is, over the objections of the people who actually make the films.

It really isn't; it's basic economics. The function of all profits is the expansion of the industry in question. There's no magic line beyond which it makes no difference to production.

I'm not sure how this is a response to my point. It sounds like you're arguing against that "you wouldn't download a car" thing, which isn't what I said (and which I don't think is a good argument).

My actual argument was about how, whatever the level of profit, it has a direct correlation to what is produced, either in terms of budget, or number, and that this doesn't just affect studio heads and wealthy actors.

Yeah, I wear plenty of secondhand clothes, and nobody can tell, or cares. In lots of circles it's considered cooler. EDIT: I actually think the jeans I'm wearing right now are from the thrift store. The fact that I'm not even sure says it all, though.

You're from a different country though, yeah? Perhaps most of this is true where you live. I certainly don't think it's true here (Eastern United States, in my case).

I bought this for the music industry when Napster came out. They've since then utilized iTunes and Spotify.

I think I'd agree with this if you were talking about Netflix, but you're not. You're talking about illegally downloading a movie. Of course they're not going to be for that because they see no revenue from it. Adapt to a changing market of what? Spending millions of dollars and giving it all away for free? That makes no sense.

Hmmm, do we have enough food to EAT tomorrow or should I catch up on Grey's Anatomy? Damn these choices.


I guess I'm not spending my money wisely if I can afford high speed internet that lets me download all these movies for free. Almost hitting my data limit because of all the movies I'm downloading? Better upgrade to unlimited. :rolleyes:

Sorry but that is just not true, I worked at school for a long time and saw how it goes. After release of Episode VII children were talking only about it, they talked in quotes, argued about the movie, draw scenes, their entire lives basically revolved around it. Except for small group that did not see it because tickets are expensive, do you know how they felt?
From my own life I remember when game boy (the first one) was a thing, everyone had it, and everyone played pokemon, they talked about, they traded it, friendships were created and broken based on it... except for me and few of my friends... we felt like outcasts.
No, it is simply pointing out the most important part of the argument but not the main and only. The main reason why I am not condemning piracy is because poor people can enjoy the same movies at the same time and do not feel left out, but the other reason is that technological revolution made old bussines model obsolete.

no. I do not consider it a moral issue, more like a good tone issue, is it morally wrong to eat fish using fork and knife? No, it is bad form, but that is about it. If you like something you should support it of course but for me it is part of etiquette not morality.

As someone who had friends in music school let me assure you that street musician expects the money but he knows he have to earn it by impresing people enough to be rewarded volountarily. Making a good trailer and basically luring people to cinema is not exactly good form would you agree.

I am not unilaterally deciding anything. I am stating my opinion. And as to objections of people who actually make films...I am sure that owners of transatlantic ships were also not exactly thrilled by invention of commercial flights.


Industry is expanding, nobody is making movies out of the goodnes of their hearts. They make profits, huge amounts of profits. I will not cry my eyes out because of their imaginary losses. If they are so unhappy with their profits stop making movies and go into other bussines. Nobody is keeping anyone by force.

I have different view of it. Studios have to accept piracy as new enviroment. Make your movie releases attractive and people will still buy disc, if only to show of on their shelf. They will still go to see it in cinema, simply because going to see movies is a good past time. But I will not act enraged because some guy downloaded a movie.

You do know that being poor is gradient right? Just because you can afford food and internet access does not make you rich. Many studies use cultural activities as a way to judge general wealth. There is more to life than being fed, and people are hurt by cultural exclusions. I understand that the same apply to old people right? If some of them feel alienated in today's world and do not even understand language that many people speak because of the technical lingo that is present on every facet of communication...well nothing wrong with that, I mean they are not hungry right?:rolleyes:

I do it if I can't find a movie despite having a monthly cable bill over $200, plus Netflix, Hulu, Fandor, and Filmstruck, and plus I'm a little sketchy:dodgy::sideways:

I get what you're saying, Jaku. I think it's why people on imdb were getting so butthurt at those who loved movies or tv shows they didnt like or hadnt seen. The anger always struck me as being irrational, but it makes sense if I think about them feeling excluded.

Whoa, hold up. Episode VII was a major cultural event, years in the making. It broke records. The overwhelming majority of movies have < 1% as much cultural impact as that film did. So if that's going to be your example of "culture," you need to adjust your definition of "affordable," too. Because if we're just talking about seeing films that EVERYONE is seeing, you only need to buy a couple of tickets a year.

Kids feeling like outsiders isn't something you can fix by torrenting movies. They always exclude each other for dumb things, and they would even if we lived in some egalitarian paradise.

I grew up poor, by the way. I didn't feel excluded from the rich kids: I felt closer to my poor friends.

The problem is you keep making arguments that you then turn around and admit your belief doesn't hinge on. So you say it's not wrong because some people can't afford it...but it's still okay even if they can. Then you say it's not wrong because they might not enjoy the film...but it's still okay even if they do. So, by your own admission, these things are ancillary to the topic.

But he doesn't demand it. And that alone means the two situations are not comparable. Whether or not you take it with their permission, or without it, is the important part.

Right, but it's your opinion that you should be allowed to unilaterally decide whether or not to pay for this stuff.

I'm pretty sure the relevant comparison would be how they felt about stowaways.

Again, you're not really replying to the point here: the level of profits directly correlates to the size of the industry. This is easily demonstrated with a thought experiment: if the film industry made $100 a year, total, they wouldn't be able to make many films (or many films with high production values), right? But if they made $10 million, they would make more, and more expensive ones. And if they made $100 million, you'd see even more movies greenlit, and with higher budgets, and riskier films would get made, too.

In all three of these examples, the industry is making "a profit." In two of them, it's making a large profit. But you're getting far more films, with far larger budgets, and a wider variety of films, the higher you go. And the more films made, and the larger their budgets, the more ordinary people the industry sustains, too, since the overwhelming majority of people involved are not superstar actors or studio heads.

You just said "being poor is a gradient." So are profits. Just as your income affects your consumption, movie industry profits affect what gets made, and for how much. There's no big glowing line that says "REALLY RICH" beyond which they stop making more (or bigger, or weirder) films.

This is a straw man. I'm not saying you should be enraged. I'm just saying I don't think these ethical justifications hold water.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

I dont know how to download and dont want to learn, but living in the pirate nation of the world and knowing people in the biz and chatting to them about it, they believe people here download

1. to push for fast tracking which to a certain extent has worked

and

2. because distribution nd promotion here is piss weak, and we cant even get cinematic releases of a lot of our own movies, or by aussie film makers in america and europe.

For those two reasons I dont blame the vigilantes. I still, however, regard it as stealing, but I;m a goody two shoes and I am biased. I dont judge people for doing it, but I dont like it promoted on film forums either (those spammers who link)

In one study I read that my bro put on fb, pirates are much more likely to spend on merchandise.

Re: Why do you pirate movies/TV shows?
 

That's pretty much where I come down, Dani. Ethically, the justifications just don't work. Doesn't make it, ya' know, murder. I'm not going to tell you I've never done it (though rarely, and I've bought tickets I didn't use and donated to charity as a moral offset). But let's not pretend it's anything more noble or justifiable than it is: people want to see a lot of movies without paying for them.

We'll hear elaborate hypotheticals about out-of-print Brazilian indie films or people living in cardboard boxes with nothing but a shopping cart and a cable modem, but 99% of the time it's someone who can afford a ticket, but would simply rather not pay for it, which is why all those reasons turn not to be dispositive, if you ask.