The MoFo Top Film Noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread

[Wyldesyde19]

I'm ready on my end and let me tell ya all it was a LOT of work! OMG my eyes actually hurt today from eye strain....Yoda has a lot of work to do too behind the scenes to make all this happen. The plan is for both the Film Noir and Neo Noir Countdowns to start on the same day. That's all I know right now...Oh I know one more thing and this is BIG...I got enough ballots with enough movies to do a full Top 100!
Your work and dedication is appreciated. 👍

[rauldc14]

I'm ready on my end and let me tell ya all it was a LOT of work! OMG my eyes actually hurt today from eye strain....Yoda has a lot of work to do too behind the scenes to make all this happen. The plan is for both the Film Noir and Neo Noir Countdowns to start on the same day. That's all I know right now...Oh I know one more thing and this is BIG...I got enough ballots with enough movies to do a full Top 100!

Hell ya! 100 it is!

[Citizen Rules]

Your work and dedication is appreciated. 👍Thanks, I'm glad to be able to help.

Hell ya! 100 it is! And it's a solid list... really good voting people!

[SpelingError]

Bad news: The countdown was just cancelled.

[Citizen Rules]

Bad news: The countdown was just cancelled.
:eek:


My biggest worry is that I would lose all my data. I had it backed up on two drives, but just now I backed it up on an external drive as well.

[rauldc14]

So I take it you hand tallied it all? I remember doing that

[Citizen Rules]

So I take it you hand tallied it all? I remember doing thatYup...you and me are probably the only countdown host to have ever done that. It's not bad until you have to sort it all out, add it all up and arrange it in order, then that part takes time.

[rauldc14]

Yup...you and me are probably the only countdown host to have ever done that. It's not bad until you have to sort it all out, add it all up and arrange it in order, then that part takes time.

Lot of work. Props to you!

[MovieFan1988]

Bad news: The countdown was just cancelled.

Yea canceled, that damn Thief stole all of the ballots so he can have Neo Noir the only countdown going on :D:D

[John W Constantine]

So a pair of 100's instead of 50's?

[Citizen Rules]

So a pair of 100's instead of 50's?You got it!

[John W Constantine]

Oh my.

[Thief]

Yep. We're gonna neo all the noir out of you all!

[ThatDarnMKS]

Yep. We're gonna neo all the noir out of you all!
Just so you know, he contacted me for my Film Noir and you didn't for your Neo Noir, therefore only his list is valid and I will hold this grudge forever.

[crumbsroom]

Just so you know, he contacted me for my Film Noir and you didn't for your Neo Noir


It's because you don't have an avatar.

[Iroquois]

sent in a list of 25 films. guess i didn't notice the rule that excluded pre-1940 films, which i'm just going to regard as a pity as that's cutting out a lot of good films arbitrarily. in any case, this meant that 6 of my picks were ineligible and, rather than choosing to keep asking me for eligible replacements after bringing my attention to 1 error they noticed, op just decided to skip the rest and give me an incomplete ballot of 20 films. don't think i've ever had an incomplete ballot for any countdown i've participated in on this website, but i guess it's thematically appropriate that it happened with the noir countdown, a film movement built around things never going right. whatever.

[ThatDarnMKS]

It's because you don't have an avatar.
I'm a man of mystery.

[Thief]

I'm a man of mystery.

That happens when you disappear for a couple of months!

[Citizen Rules]

sent in a list of 25 films. guess i didn't notice the rule that excluded pre-1940 films, which i'm just going to regard as a pity as that's cutting out a lot of good films arbitrarily. in any case, this meant that 6 of my picks were ineligible and, rather than choosing to keep asking me for eligible replacements after bringing my attention to 1 error they noticed, op just decided to skip the rest and give me an incomplete ballot of 20 films. don't think i've ever had an incomplete ballot for any countdown i've participated in on this website, but i guess it's thematically appropriate that it happened with the noir countdown, a film movement built around things never going right. whatever.It was 4 films that you needed replacements for. I did message you but you hadn't responded by the next day. I needed to have all of the points compiled so that I didn't hold up Thief and Yoda, therefore I had to remove those 4 movies, but your other ballot movies were still counted.

However since Yoda has said the countdowns won't be ready to start for a few more days, you can send me replacements for those 4 movies and I will add the points into the master list. But I need your replacements within 24 hours, not in several days.

[Thief]

sent in a list of 25 films. guess i didn't notice the rule that excluded pre-1940 films, which i'm just going to regard as a pity as that's cutting out a lot of good films arbitrarily. in any case, this meant that 6 of my picks were ineligible and, rather than choosing to keep asking me for eligible replacements after bringing my attention to 1 error they noticed, op just decided to skip the rest and give me an incomplete ballot of 20 films. don't think i've ever had an incomplete ballot for any countdown i've participated in on this website, but i guess it's thematically appropriate that it happened with the noir countdown, a film movement built around things never going right. whatever.

It's widely accepted for the cut-off of the film noir period to be 1940 to 1959, which is the reason why those limits were set up and detailed in the opening post of the thread. This was discussed and decided way back in the threads when we were choosing the topic for the countdown.

[Thief]

The Rules and Procedures


IMDB & Wikipedia are used to determine noir eligibility. Film noirs released from 1940 to 1959 are eligible. At IMDB if they are tagged 'noir' or 'film noir' anywhere on the page. At Wiki it needs to say 'noir' or 'film noir' in the movie's first section in the first or second sentence. Mentions of noir further down the Wiki page won't count.



It's clearly stated in the rules and procedures on the first post of the thread, but I guess it's thematically appropriate that it happened with the noir countdown, a film movement about characters that don't necessarily follow the rules :p

[ThatDarnMKS]

That happens when you disappear for a couple of months!
You know where to find me. What do you think I am? Mysterious?

[GulfportDoc]

It's widely accepted for the cut-off of the film noir period to be 1940 to 1959, which is the reason why those limits were set up and detailed in the opening post of the thread. This was discussed and decided way back in the threads when we were choosing the topic for the countdown.
Yeah, the film noir era is usually considered as from 1941 (with The Maltese Falcon) to 1959 (perhaps with Odds Against Tomorrow).

There were certainly noir style films all the way back to the silents, but the Hollywood film noir movement was arguably launched with The Maltese Falcon (some might say 1940's The Letter), and drew to an end in 1959.

[Thief]

Yeah, all joking aside, I remember that being the decision back when we settled on the topic of Film Noir; to use what is the most common timeframe attributed to classic film noir. Sure, there are a lot of pre-1940 noir-ish films, but then when do we stop?

[Iroquois]

duly noted, revised ballot has been submitted.

[Citizen Rules]

Yeah, the film noir era is usually considered as from 1941 (with The Maltese Falcon) to 1959 (perhaps with Odds Against Tomorrow).

There were certainly noir style films all the way back to the silents, but the Hollywood film noir movement was arguably launched with The Maltese Falcon (some might say 1940's The Letter), and drew to an end in 1959.I always considered the film noir era as being from 1941-1958. The first two Noir HoFs I ran had that criteria. For this countdown I went with 1940 to 1959 as that way it spanned a full two decades...I'm still watching noirs btw!

[Citizen Rules]

duly noted, revised ballot has been submitted.
Thanks, I will recalculate.

[ApexPredator]

I'm a man of mystery.

An international man of mystery?

[GulfportDoc]

I always considered the film noir era as being from 1941-1958. The first two Noir HoFs I ran had that criteria. For this countdown I went with 1940 to 1959 as that way it spanned a full two decades...I'm still watching noirs btw!
Re the noir movement: '41, with The Maltese Falcon is a good place to cite the start of the era of noir because Bogart's Sam Spade began a remarkable change: the detective not as a law keeper, but as an anti-hero that lived by his own interests and conscience. He's not a lawman, but a private eye beholding only to himself. That quickly became a trope. And the artistic decision by writers and directors to portray that circumstance was pretty distinctly American. German expressionism certainly influenced the chiaroscuro cinematography of American noir, but the noir sentiment itself was uniquely American.

[Citizen Rules]

Re the noir movement: '41, with The Maltese Falcon is a good place to cite the start of the era of noir because Bogart's Sam Spade began a remarkable change: the detective not as a law keeper, but as an anti-hero that lived by his own interests and conscience. He's not a lawman, but a private eye beholding only to himself. That quickly became a trope. And the artistic decision by writers and directors to portray that circumstance was pretty distinctly American. German expressionism certainly influenced the chiaroscuro cinematography of American noir, but the noir sentiment itself was uniquely American. You're right that film noir was an American film movement, which did of course influence other countries' film makers to do their own noirish thing. After the close of the 1950s it was like a light went off for noir and it was done and over. With the start of the 1960s the baby boomers came of age and styles, culture and film making changed to suit them. Though some say the last film noir was 1961's Blast of Silence. Which I've never seen.

[ThatDarnMKS]

An international man of mystery?
Oh behave.

[ThatDarnMKS]

You're right that film noir was an American film movement, which did of course influence other countries' film makers to do their own noirish thing. After the close of the 1950s it was like a light went off for noir and it was done and over. With the start of the 1960s the baby boomers came of age and styles, culture and film making changed to suit them. Though some say the last film noir was 1961's Blast of Silence. Which I've never seen.
I almost included Blast of Silence because it's phenomenal but wasn't sure if I considered it part of the proper film noir movement (glad I have a pretty narrow definition of the genre because I didn't look up any of the parameters before voting).

Huge recommendation and it's the connective tissue between the likes of This Gun For Hire to Le Samourai and Taxi Driver.

[GulfportDoc]

You're right that film noir was an American film movement, which did of course influence other countries' film makers to do their own noirish thing. After the close of the 1950s it was like a light went off for noir and it was done and over. With the start of the 1960s the baby boomers came of age and styles, culture and film making changed to suit them. Though some say the last film noir was 1961's Blast of Silence. Which I've never seen.
Blast of Silence is a suberb dark noir both directed and starring Allen Baron on a minuscule budget. It's not so much that the story of a hitman is particularly noir, but the mood and photography definitely are. I'm of the school that it's possibly the first, and one of the best, neo-noirs. I think you'd like it, CR.

[Kaplan]

You're right that film noir was an American film movement, which did of course influence other countries' film makers to do their own noirish thing. After the close of the 1950s it was like a light went off for noir and it was done and over. With the start of the 1960s the baby boomers came of age and styles, culture and film making changed to suit them. Though some say the last film noir was 1961's Blast of Silence. Which I've never seen.

Blast of Silence is worth watching if only for its deliciously noir narration. I’d consider one of the first neo-noirs.

[Little Ash]

I say this not to litigate the eligibility based on release dates, but just with the acknowledgement that with any strict classification, there are probably going to be some edge cases that are going to break those rules, but if I were to try to name post-1960 movies that I would probably classify as classic-noir, Cape Fear is the first one that comes to mind.

If I were to try to pick up on one of the subtle differences between what would get lumped in with neo-noir as opposed to noir, would probably the presence of the classic Hollywood acting as opposed to method acting which started to rise in the 50s.

[Citizen Rules]

Blast of Silence is worth watching if only for its deliciously noir narration. I’d consider one of the first neo-noirs.Ultimately that's how I'd consider Blast of Silence too.

I say this not to litigate the eligibility based on release dates, but just with the acknowledgement that with any strict classification, there are probably going to be some edge cases that are going to break those rules, but if I were to try to name post-1960 movies that I would probably classify as classic-noir, Cape Fear is the first one that comes to mind. I wouldn't consider Cape Fear a noir. It's pure thriller and a fore funner to modern horror films with a boogie man Mitchum chasing helpless victims throughout the movie.

If I were to try to pick up on one of the subtle differences between what would get lumped in with neo-noir as opposed to noir, would probably the presence of the classic Hollywood acting as opposed to method acting which started to rise in the 50s.
I see what you're saying but I've seen so many 40s-50s film noir that I can say that many if not most have actors delivering their lines as if they were living the character.

[Siddon]

I agree that the strict lines kinda hurt certain films...I think Cape Fear is one of the last noir's while Elevator to the Gallows is the first neo-noir. But because one film came out in 58 and the other in 62 I ended up putting them on different ballots.

[KeyserCorleone]

I agree that the strict lines kinda hurt certain films...I think Cape Fear is one of the last noir's while Elevator to the Gallows is the first neo-noir. But because one film came out in 58 and the other in 62 I ended up putting them on different ballots.

Imagine my disappointment when I couldn't vote for Strange Days. I watched it just for the games.

[Little Ash]

Ultimately that's how I'd consider Blast of Silence too.

I wouldn't consider Cape Fear a noir. It's pure thriller and a fore funner to modern horror films with a boogie man Mitchum chasing helpless victims throughout the movie.

I'd say that doesn't sound mutually exclusive with being a noir, seeing as how noir overlapped with a number of different genres. One of the characteristics of noir is often the use of light and shadow. It's been a while, so it's possible my memory is super-imposing a number of different things onto the movie that weren't actually as present as I remember them being there, which might cause me to revise that assessment whenever the time comes that I rewatch it (fwiw, the first line of wikipedia does describe it as a noir psychological thriller, so my recollection doesn't sound completely off-base).

I see what you're saying but I've seen so many 40s-50s film noir that I can say that many if not most have actors delivering their lines as if they were living the character.

Possibly. I was just trying to mentally pick apart one reason why the neo-noirs feels different than the noirs (not factoring the retro-noirs, which are a different beast). Wouldn't be surprised if the guess was off.

[Citizen Rules]

I'd say that doesn't sound mutually exclusive with being a noir, seeing as how noir overlapped with a number of different genres. One of the characteristics of noir is often the use of light and shadow. It's been a while, so it's possible my memory is super-imposing a number of different things onto the movie that weren't actually as present as I remember them being there, which might cause me to revise that assessment whenever the time comes that I rewatch it (fwiw, the first line of wikipedia does describe it as a noir psychological thriller, so my recollection doesn't sound completely off-base).I'm sure a lot of people would agree with you about Cape Fear and of course it's totally fine for us to have a different viewpoint on what is and isn't noir...The more noir I watch the more I realize that the noir definition is ambiguous at best and my opinion is just that an opinion and open to change. BTW what Cape Fear were you talking about? I just remembered there was a remake of that movie.

[Siddon]

I've said this before and I'll say it again...Thriller isn't a genre. Cape Fear isn't a Thriller because Thrillers don't exist on their own. Any and all Thriller's have to be something else they don't stand on their own as a singular genre. They can be action films, horror films and dramas but a Thriller that is just a thriller...that's only Michael Jackson.

[John W Constantine]

...And no one's gonna save you from the beast about to strike.

[GulfportDoc]

...

I wouldn't consider Cape Fear a noir. It's pure thriller and a fore funner to modern horror films with a boogie man Mitchum chasing helpless victims throughout the movie.
...
Right, Cape Fear is not a noir, nor a neo-noir It's a psychological suspense film, nearly horror. It's at best reminiscent of noir due to its black & white filming, many night time scenes, along with Bernard Herrmann's excellent score. It was a pretty shocking film for its day. Reportedly many cuts were necessary in order to keep the censors from giving it an "X" rating.

I didn't know until recently that the picture was directed from storyboards originally made by Alfred Hitchcock, the first director on the film.

[Thief]

Imagine my disappointment when I couldn't vote for Strange Days. I watched it just for the games.

Strange Days was eligible for the neo-noir countdown :shrug:

[Thief]

Re: Cape Fear, I haven't seen the original but there are some places and sources that do cite it as a noir or neo-noir. As we are getting ready to start this countdown soon, I think it's better to acclimate ourselves to that notion regarding many films.

[Thief]

You're right that film noir was an American film movement, which did of course influence other countries' film makers to do their own noirish thing. After the close of the 1950s it was like a light went off for noir and it was done and over. With the start of the 1960s the baby boomers came of age and styles, culture and film making changed to suit them. Though some say the last film noir was 1961's Blast of Silence. Which I've never seen.

Also the loosening and eventual elimination of the Hays Code in 1968 changed the ways these stories were told, so that also led to newer films feeling like they had a similar, but at the same time different, flavor.

[Citizen Rules]

Re: Cape Fear, I haven't seen the original but there are some places and sources that do cite it as a noir or neo-noir. As we are getting ready to start this countdown soon, I think it's better to acclimate ourselves to that notion regarding many films.Was the Cape Fear remake eligible for the Neo Noir countdown? I've not seen it either, just curious.

[KeyserCorleone]

Strange Days was eligible for the neo-noir countdown :shrug:


You needed two of the three websites to get it eligible. It was only eligible on one website.

[Thief]

Was the Cape Fear remake eligible for the Neo Noir countdown? I've not seen it either, just curious.

Yes. Through and through:


identified as an "American noir psychological thriller film" on Wikipedia
"neo-noir" is the first keyword listen on its IMDb page
it is included under "Noir and Dark Dramas" themes on Letterboxd
it has a "film noir" tag on TheMovieDB

[Citizen Rules]

Right, Cape Fear is not a noir, nor a neo-noir It's a psychological suspense film, nearly horror. It's at best reminiscent of noir due to its black & white filming, many night time scenes, along with Bernard Herrmann's excellent score. It was a pretty shocking film for its day. Reportedly many cuts were necessary in order to keep the censors from giving it an "X" rating.

I didn't know until recently that the picture was directed from storyboards originally made by Alfred Hitchcock, the first director on the film.I'm planning on watching all of Gregory Peck's films, though I'm still very much watching noir but I will get to Cape Fear. I did just see an Ida Lupino film which she co-wrote and starred in that was tagged noir but really to me seemed more like Cape Fear...it's Woman in Hiding (1950) and Ida is stalked by her conniving husband and she goes on the run pretending to be dead and making more stupid choices than a teen in a slasher horror film. I wasn't impressed.

[Thief]

You needed two of the three websites to get it eligible. It was only eligible on one website.

It has both "neo noir" and "tech noir" keywords on IMDb.

It is identified as a "blending" of "science fiction with film noir conventions" on Wikipedia, and its article widely references "film noir" and "tech noir".

It has a "tech noir" tag on TheMovieDB

[Little Ash]

I'm sure a lot of people would agree with you about Cape Fear and of course it's totally fine for us to have a different viewpoint on what is and isn't noir...The more noir I watch the more I realize that the noir definition is ambiguous at best and my opinion is just that an opinion and open to change. BTW what Cape Fear were you talking about? I just remembered there was a remake of that movie.

I've never seen the Scorsese remake, only the original.
I should probably actually watch the remake at some point, I suspect it probably wouldn't be too bad given the people involved. I suspect that one would probably play more as a thriller-horror.

The most coherent summary of defining classic noir I've heard is less of a genre and more of a general film trend of the nihilism, fatalism, and seedy underside of America or the American dream that Americans felt after coming back from WW2, often in spite of being told we lived a great new world. It conveyed this by heavy usage of light and shadow (influence heavily by German Expressionism on that front, partially because of the German filmmakers who fled Germany came to America - which also influenced the horror movies of the 30s). This stands in contrast the general trend of escapist musicals that were popular during the Depression era preceding it. Then generalize this general vibe and fatalism to other countries, not just America. Entries in it can vary from dark melodramas like Sunset Blvd (but for some reason not All About Eve, which seems correct, but also confusing because they're seem very similar categorically otherwise) to mystery-thrillers (and not all, but it's tough for me to figure out why) to general crime (such as mob and/or detective) movies. Then factor in general looseness, and be broad with the crime/mob movies of the 40s and 50s, and I think we get about there.

In retrospect, I think I've finally come around on Vertigo, and partly because of this noir (and the neo-noir) countdown. Because I think it only makes sense to view it as a noir akin to In a Lonely Place - as a dark night of the soul/god's lonely man type of movie.

Neo-noir... when you take the neo-noir subcategory of modern noirs, where it's an update of noirs to the modern era (as opposed to retro-noirs which are period pieces that fetishize the classic noir films (I'm stealing these definitions/contrast from some site I googled during the countdown, but I can't remember which)), it gets really confusing on what's an updated version of a classic-noir crime film vs just a crime film in my mind. Though I am keeping in mind the difference between a neo-western (e.g. No Country for Old Men) vs a modern western (Unforgiven) as reference point for that definition. For the record, I included both neo-noirs and retro-noirs on my ballot for Thief. I also just buried my head on guessing how much I considered a movie a neo-noir. I kind of just gave up after a point and felt nothing definite.

[Citizen Rules]

....The most coherent summary of defining classic noir I've heard is less of a genre and more of a general film trend of the nihilism, fatalism, and seedy underside of America or the American dream that Americans felt after coming back from WW2, often in spite of being told we lived a great new world. It conveyed this by heavy usage of light and shadow (influence heavily by German Expressionism on that front, partially because of the German filmmakers who fled Germany came to America - which also influenced the horror movies of the 30s). ...Then factor in general looseness, and be broad with the crime/mob movies of the 40s and 50s, and I think we get about there...Well said and I agree. In a nutshell WWII created noir. Soldiers had this fatalistic view of life. They had this saying, 'if your time is up, there's nothing you can do about it'. They talked about bullets with their 'name' on it...an inescapable fate. Because of Nazi persecution of Jews many Jewish film makers made it to America and continued with their asymmetrical compositions, usage of negative space, long shadows and crescendo lighting. American noir is born out of WWII, even though alot of the scripts were based on pulp fiction novels written during the depression era. I wrote something along those lines for the 1st post of this thread. Who knew something good could come out of WWII.

[KeyserCorleone]

It has both "neo noir" and "tech noir" keywords on IMDb.

It is identified as a "blending" of "science fiction with film noir conventions" on Wikipedia, and its article widely references "film noir" and "tech noir".

It has a "tech noir" tag on TheMovieDB


"At Wiki it needs to say "noir", "film noir", or "neo-noir" in the movie's first section in the first or second sentence. Alternatively, it could be on a "neo-noir" category at the bottom of the page."

...


TMDB... OK, these rules were just way too effing complicated. I'm just so annoyed right now.