24th Hall of Fame [Archive] - Page 7

Takoma11

04-19-21, 06:55 PM

I was just messing around with my response there. You were saying something to the effect that it was nothing you hadn't seen before, and I assume you were talking about the general narrative. On the other hand, it's a movie that's packaged as a thriller, yet it touched me deeply and made me feel a wide variety of emotions. That's why I love it, and in that way it is completely unique.

That's fair.

I agree with all that but just think the term sells it short.

I just wanted to be clear that I was using the term descriptively, not dismissively.

That's an interesting POV. Mine is different. First off, I believe an audience always wants sweet revenge by the main character. The other thing is that while Esposito is the main character of the movie, I believe Morales is the central figure of the story. He gets his revenge, but it's not gratifying at all due to the cost to him.

So to me it all ties into the idea of what characters have lost in the name of pursuing justice. In Morales, we see that he has literally given his life over to revenge/justice, because he is also essentially held hostage by having to care for the killer. So Morales is almost a cautionary tale about being consumed by the case.

But why I think it lets the viewer off a bit easy is that the main character never hits the "point of no return". Because Morales takes on the burden of the final revenge/justice, Esposito is allowed to both have closure in the case (the killer is being punished) AND he gets to rekindle the romance that he abandoned.

I simply think that it would have been more powerful if Esposito had had to choose. Either closure or reclaim some of what he has lost. When I say the ending is people-pleasing, I'm talking about the fact that he gets a positive outcome in both conflicts.

I don't know if you've seen Gone Baby Gone so I will be super vague here, but I felt that film did a good job of showing just how complicated it can be to try to do the "right thing".

I just don't actually feel that there are conflicting emotions at the end. "I am sad he lost so much time with the woman he loved" and "I am happy he is with her now" are not conflicting. They are complementary.

For me, truly conflicting emotions would be something like Esposito having to take over the care of the killer. That would be a conflict because on one hand you'd want him to make sure the guy was off the streets and brought to justice, but on the other hand it would mean he couldn't be with the woman he loves. Then we feel the pain of him having to choose.

The Secret in Their Eyes is a very emotionally powerful film for me. Isn't it possible that the Academy voters felt the way I did?

Absolutely. But I also think that it helps that the film is packaged (again, not a negative term!) in a form that is very accessible.

rauldc14

04-19-21, 07:06 PM

Just to confirm, Raul, you did receive my ballot right?

Got it

neiba

04-19-21, 07:54 PM

The Day of the Jackal (1973)

What a great piece of filmmaking! This film makes a very good companion piece to the Battle of Algiers, which I saw recently in one of these HoFs (can't recall if a general one or the Personal Rec HoF).
The story is quite linear but extremely well crafted and executed, and the 2+ hours this takes never seem boring even if the pacing is quite slow throughout the whole thing.
Great acting and script also from everyone involved, and Zimmerman deserves a lot more respect! Everything I've seen by him is an absolute delight.

4 +

--------------

The Whisperers (1967)

A very touching film. First of all, the title sequence is masterfully done! The soundtrack and those chimneys shots give the perfect atmosphere and the movie does a quite good job in carrying it till the end.
I think that, more than solitude, this film portraits how difficult it is for an old person to not feel needed or useful anymore. I look at my grandma and the way some members of my family treat her and it breaks my heart, and this is the precise effect this film goes for.
In that sense, the acting by Edith Evans is absolutely astonishing! Everything about this perfomance hits it perfectly. The rest of the cast is alright.
And I miss my grandma... :(

3.5 -

neiba

04-19-21, 08:09 PM

La Dolce Vita (1960)

Sorry, I really don't get it. I've tried 3 films by Fellini now, this one is a rewatch and I simply can't not be bored to death by it. This was the one I disliked the less though. There are some really great shots but everything seems so detached and I can't really care for anyone on screen.
I know how much this film is loved and I'm still hoping there comes a time where I get it (maybe when I'm 60?) but it's still ot happening.

2

--------------------

Aniara (2018)

The perfect film to watch during the lockdown, isn't it?
It's quite immersive with a fine treatment of sound! The acting is decent from everyone involved though I wasn't impressed by anyone in particular. Also, the story seems incredibly fresh even if the initial premise is quite simple.
However, I didn't really like the editing and some plot holes with the science can be detected though I understand that's not the purpose of the film.
It leaves space to wonder how much society needs a purpose, especially during these challenging times which is something I've been pondering and reading a lot about. I wish this was better executed, though, and I wouldn't actually be against an American remake if taken by the right director.

3 -

neiba

04-19-21, 08:10 PM

2 films left to the last day, one of them a Bergman... Damn, tomorrow will be depressing :p

rauldc14

04-19-21, 08:24 PM

2 films left to the last day, one of them a Bergman... Damn, tomorrow will be depressing :p

In A Glass Cage is pretty laughable at least :)

cricket

04-19-21, 09:40 PM

So to me it all ties into the idea of what characters have lost in the name of pursuing justice. In Morales, we see that he has literally given his life over to revenge/justice, because he is also essentially held hostage by having to care for the killer. So Morales is almost a cautionary tale about being consumed by the case.

But why I think it lets the viewer off a bit easy is that the main character never hits the "point of no return". Because Morales takes on the burden of the final revenge/justice, Esposito is allowed to both have closure in the case (the killer is being punished) AND he gets to rekindle the romance that he abandoned.

I simply think that it would have been more powerful if Esposito had had to choose. Either closure or reclaim some of what he has lost. When I say the ending is people-pleasing, I'm talking about the fact that he gets a positive outcome in both conflicts.

I don't know if you've seen Gone Baby Gone so I will be super vague here, but I felt that film did a good job of showing just how complicated it can be to try to do the "right thing".

I just don't actually feel that there are conflicting emotions at the end. "I am sad he lost so much time with the woman he loved" and "I am happy he is with her now" are not conflicting. They are complementary.

For me, truly conflicting emotions would be something like Esposito having to take over the care of the killer. That would be a conflict because on one hand you'd want him to make sure the guy was off the streets and brought to justice, but on the other hand it would mean he couldn't be with the woman he loves. Then we feel the pain of him having to choose.

If you get into a terrible car accident and break half the bones in your body, some people will say you're lucky to be alive. I would say it's terrible what happened to you. An innocent man goes to prison for 25 years and is finally released. No matter how you look at it, he lost 25 years. He lost big time. Everybody lost something in this movie and gained nothing. It was good that a point came when they could move on, but it's tragic as a whole nonetheless. And he did choose, it just came earlier in the film.

Absolutely. But I also think that it helps that the film is packaged (again, not a negative term!) in a form that is very accessible.

I think it sounds like an excuse though. Instead of saying yea it's a great movie it won the Oscar, it's it won but it's because of this. It's taking something away from it. For me, the fact that's it's more accessible than a movie like Dogtooth is not only a non factor, but it works against it since I favor movies like Dogtooth. I would have voted for it because I think it's the best of that bunch, no other reason. To say it won for another reason is just a guess, and again is diminishing its accomplishment, intended or not. But it's fine to guess that, I just disagree with the idea because I agree with the result.

Takoma11

04-19-21, 10:27 PM

If you get into a terrible car accident and break half the bones in your body, some people will say you're lucky to be alive. I would say it's terrible what happened to you. An innocent man goes to prison for 25 years and is finally released. No matter how you look at it, he lost 25 years. He lost big time. Everybody lost something in this movie and gained nothing. It was good that a point came when they could move on, but it's tragic as a whole nonetheless. And he did choose, it just came earlier in the film.

But the entire arc of the film is predicated on the main character achieving closure on both the case he investigated and his cut-short romance. And both of these are resolved in an optimistic or positive way. There are aspects of it that are bittersweet or sad, but the progression of the film is toward something that works out in the main character's favor on both fronts. I'm not saying the film is all sunshine and rainbows, but the negative emotions it evokes are the kind of negative emotions that most people are more comfortable handling

I think it sounds like an excuse though. Instead of saying yea it's a great movie it won the Oscar, it's it won but it's because of this. It's taking something away from it. For me, the fact that's it's more accessible than a movie like Dogtooth is not only a non factor, but it works against it since I favor movies like Dogtooth. I would have voted for it because I think it's the best of that bunch, no other reason. To say it won for another reason is just a guess, and again is diminishing its accomplishment, intended or not. But it's fine to guess that, I just disagree with the idea because I agree with the result.

Your position is that it won the Oscar because it was genuinely the best film out of the field of contenders.

My position is that it won the Oscar because it is a good film and it's more "friendly" than some of its competitors, which gave it a leg up.

Ultimately it's all subjective--up to and including the people who actually voted for it to win the Oscar. I'm not mad that it won. Like I said before, I rated all three films about the same, but would personally put the other two over it. But it's not by some huge margin. And I happen to think that there are a lot of movies/people who win awards because of other elements than them being the best (*cough* Crash *cough*). Being a film that happens to be in a form that is easier to digest is hardly some malicious sin on the film's part.

cricket

04-19-21, 10:54 PM

But the entire arc of the film is predicated on the main character achieving closure on both the case he investigated and his cut-short romance. And both of these are resolved in an optimistic or positive way. There are aspects of it that are bittersweet or sad, but the progression of the film is toward something that works out in the main character's favor on both fronts. I'm not saying the film is all sunshine and rainbows, but the negative emotions it evokes are the kind of negative emotions that most people are more comfortable handling

See I don't think he achieved closure at all especially regarding the case. I think he was disgusted how it turned out. All that time lost and it would turn out it was for nothing. Suddenly he realizes he did it all for nothing. Imagine how that would feel? Yes, he was still able to look toward the future, but he could have done that without losing all of those years. That's not something a person can just get over.

Your position is that it won the Oscar because it was genuinely the best film out of the field of contenders.

My position is that it won the Oscar because it is a good film and it's more "friendly" than some of its competitors, which gave it a leg up.

So that always happens? If not, why this time?

Takoma11

04-19-21, 11:14 PM

See I don't think he achieved closure at all especially regarding the case. I think he was disgusted how it turned out. All that time lost and it would turn out it was for nothing. Suddenly he realizes he did it all for nothing. Imagine how that would feel? Yes, he was still able to look toward the future, but he could have done that without losing all of those years. That's not something a person can just get over.

I guess I just see the film as being more optimistic than you do. At the time he made a decision that seemed like the best one for everybody involved, and he had no way of knowing it wasn't.

So that always happens? If not, why this time?

I honestly don't follow the Oscars all that closely. But I feel that when it comes to awarding stories, the ones that are easier to follow and with simpler/broader emotional beats tend to get more recognition. Maybe someone more in tune with the Oscars can set me straight here if I am wrong, but that'm my general impression.

The Secret in Their Eyes is by no means an undeserving winner, it's just not the one that I would have picked. I had stronger emotional responses to the other films and enjoyed their style a bit more.

cricket

04-19-21, 11:32 PM

I guess I just see the film as being more optimistic than you do. At the time he made a decision that seemed like the best one for everybody involved, and he had no way of knowing it wasn't.

There's nothing wrong with seeing it a certain way, and in fact I was fascinated with your review because you noticed a lot that I didn't. For me, one of the bigger themes of the movie is regret, and I see that as the opposite of closure. Of course being able to pick up the pieces is a good thing, but I saw that as a consolation prize.

I honestly don't follow the Oscars all that closely. But I feel that when it comes to awarding stories, the ones that are easier to follow and with simpler/broader emotional beats tend to get more recognition. Maybe someone more in tune with the Oscars can set me straight here if I am wrong, but that'm my general impression.

I don't follow them that closely either but I know Moonlight and Parasite both won recently.

The Secret in Their Eyes is by no means an undeserving winner, it's just not the one that I would have picked. I had stronger emotional responses to the other films and enjoyed their style a bit more.

Exactly. It doesn't make you wrong, but it is the reason you suspect there was more to it winning.

Takoma11

04-19-21, 11:51 PM

There's nothing wrong with seeing it a certain way, and in fact I was fascinated with your review because you noticed a lot that I didn't. For me, one of the bigger themes of the movie is regret, and I see that as the opposite of closure. Of course being able to pick up the pieces is a good thing, but I saw that as a consolation prize.

I think that it is very possible to experience regret either with or without closure. In the case of this film, I think that the regret does come with closure. He is able to literally talk out his feelings with all of the relevant parties. And, further, neither he nor his love interest are in a position that makes a future relationship impossible. What if her character had died? Or been in a loving, committed marriage? Instead she is available and still into him.

Exactly. It doesn't make you wrong, but it is the reason you suspect there was more to it winning.

Right, but "suspect" makes it sound like I think there's something untoward happening. I just think that the film happens to have a lot going for it in terms of appealing to a broader audience. And that's what counts when a lot of people are voting for you. If you told me that 10 people were going to watch all three films and pick their favorite, I would be entirely unsurprised if most of them picked Secret in Their Eyes despite me thinking it's not the best of the three. If I had to recommend one of them to a stranger knowing little about their tastes, I'd recommend Secret in Their Eyes, know what I mean? Between the murder mystery, the themes about coming to terms with the past, and (what I see as) an optimistic ending, it's just the most broadly appealing of the bunch.

Thief

04-20-21, 12:08 AM

Well, Barry Lyndon is out of the way; will write my review tomorrow. Beasts of the Southern Wild will be left for the eleventh hour, I guess. If not, I still have my original review from back when I saw it.

SpelingError

04-20-21, 04:20 AM

The Whisperers (1967) - 4

Though this film was hard to watch, I appreciated a lot about it. Most notably, Edith Evans' spectacular performance. As others have noted, she effectively captures the solitude and isolation of someone who's lived in isolation throughout so much of her life to the point she has imaginary conversations in her apartment. Overall, her work in this film is pretty incredible. I normally don't pay attention to acting when I watch films, but her performance here would definitely make a short list of my favorite acting performances.

While there's a focus on her current mental state, we mainly see instances of other people mistreating her. Well, a lot of them, actually. She's mistreated when she goes to church, she's mistreated by her son, she's betrayed by a friend, she's insulted by a neighbor when she voices her concern for her safety, she's mistreated by her husband, etc. While this isn't all that happens to her in the film (the hospital sequence is one of the only instances that anyone shows genuine care for her), a lot of this film consists of her being mistreated, verbally abused, and neglected by those around her. Due to this, I imagine a lot of people will be depressed by this film.

While Mrs. Ross's arc could be simplified to her being mistreated over and over again, I think a lot more is going on. Finding the money her son left acted as her opportunity to find solace from her current state of isolation and discomfort. It's implied that, before the events of the film, Mrs. Ross didn't have many social communications, nor did she talk to many people. She mainly spent her life living in isolation from the outside world. The heart of the film can be found in Mrs. Ross's desire to break free from her current mental state and her continued attempts to pursue this goal, even as they keep falling flat. (if you're reading this sentence, reply to this review with "Butternut Squash"; I'm curious if anyone will notice this sentence) Yes, none of her efforts work out, and yes, she ultimately goes back to her life of solitude. Looking back, however, the film ultimately didn't leave me depressed when it ended. I think the ending is more hopeful and layered than it seems on the surface. This is because her apartment has now become a place of comfort for her instead of a torturous environment. I got the sense from the ending that she's more comfortable with her life of isolation than she was in the beginning, reacting to the leaky faucet in her apartment with a smile and a content "Are you there?" rather than the nervous "I know you're there! You leave me alone!" she exclaimed at the start of the film. The Whisperers is about Mrs. Ross attempting to break free from her current unhealthy living condition, being unable to accomplish this task, but obtaining a new fondness for and a sense of comfort with her apartment in the process. While it was a bumpy road, she became better off in the end.
Since it's past 3 AM, I'll submit my ranked list tomorrow.

Thief

04-20-21, 10:42 AM

SpelingError

04-20-21, 12:20 PM

Umm, butternut squash? :shifty:
:up:

Seriously, though...

I agree. Ross' return to her apartment and her usual loneliness is a return to "normalcy" for her, and there's some solace to be had that she's at least free of the mistreatment from her no-good husband, at least. But it's a heartbreaking snapshot of the loneliness of growing old.

Yeah, what I like about the ending is that, though her arc seems to be a case of her winding up right back at the beginning, there's a sense that she feels more content with her living condition, welcoming the noises in her apartment rather than fearing them. Not being able to find a change in scenery worked out for her in the end. It's a powerful ending, in my opinion.

SpelingError

04-20-21, 12:28 PM

I just sent my ballot.

neiba

04-20-21, 01:29 PM

In a Glass Cage (1986)

Ok...

While I definitely don't feel as angry as some of the people here, this film raises the question: "is there a wrong film to an HoF?". Not that I don't see its merits, only that one has to be able to see that many people here will hate it and they will still have to watch it. And nominating it either way, while not against the rules, is simply rude.

I started this film 8 hours ago. I just finished it. And it wasn't because I had to get up and puke every 5 minutes but just because I hate this type of film. Not in a disgusting type of way, just it's not my thing at all.
It always seems lazy when people go to the shock just for the sake of it or, even worse, with some supposed pseudo-intellectual justification, as if people who don't like it, aren't just smart enough because they don't get it. Every symbolism used here is so damn on the nose, with such a lack of elegance and refinement. It's just bad film making, in my opinion.
I'll give it some credit cause it's actually well shot, but that's pretty much it.

1 -

Now how the f*** am I supposed to watch a Bergman without wanting to kill myself?

rauldc14

04-20-21, 01:49 PM

I think In A Glass Cage took me at least 3 days

Thief

04-20-21, 01:52 PM

So, assuming Neiba can watch Shame during the day, looks like I'm gonna be the last man. I'm at work now, but I'll try to work on my Barry Lyndon review, and then watch Beasts of the Southern Wild tonight.

rauldc14

04-20-21, 02:24 PM

SpelingError

04-20-21, 04:11 PM

What time and day will the results of this be announced?

SpelingError

04-20-21, 04:16 PM

cricket

04-20-21, 04:31 PM

I think that it is very possible to experience regret either with or without closure. In the case of this film, I think that the regret does come with closure. He is able to literally talk out his feelings with all of the relevant parties. And, further, neither he nor his love interest are in a position that makes a future relationship impossible. What if her character had died? Or been in a loving, committed marriage? Instead she is available and still into him.

Who is the victim in this movie? It's Morales, so I believe any debate on closure would make more sense directed toward his character. Does he achieve it? I'm not looking for an answer but rather I think it's a more relevant question when analyzing the film.

As far as Esposito and Irene, I think a lot of the pain comes from the fact that they do rekindle. If they hadn't, then maybe they weren't meant to be together, and if they weren't meant to be together, they wouldn't have suffered such great loss. You seem to believe that Esposito can put everything behind him once they're together, achieving his closure, but I believe he will think about what happened every day of his life and it will haunt him. That includes the time he lost, the death of his best friend, and the ultimate fate of Morales. I don't see that as realistic. I would also find it unrealistic if they hadn't gotten back together at that point. I prefer miserable movies with miserable endings, but I need to believe it. Perhaps you would like the movie better if it was 10 minutes longer, and they got married but were then killed in a car accident on their honeymoon? I probably would too, but I'm happy with what I got. There's an old classic movie, I won't mention by name in case you haven't seen it, but the guy and girl get together at the end, yet the result is heartbreaking. How can that be? I think it was Siddon who commented in a previous HoF that I nominated misery porn, and he was right. That's what I like, and I still think this movie is better than those others.

Right, but "suspect" makes it sound like I think there's something untoward happening. I just think that the film happens to have a lot going for it in terms of appealing to a broader audience. And that's what counts when a lot of people are voting for you. If you told me that 10 people were going to watch all three films and pick their favorite, I would be entirely unsurprised if most of them picked Secret in Their Eyes despite me thinking it's not the best of the three. If I had to recommend one of them to a stranger knowing little about their tastes, I'd recommend Secret in Their Eyes, know what I mean? Between the murder mystery, the themes about coming to terms with the past, and (what I see as) an optimistic ending, it's just the most broadly appealing of the bunch.

It's a funny thing to say to me because I was fired at a video store as a teen for recommending people questionable movies, but now I'd be very careful about recommending The Secret in Their Eyes to a stranger. If it were a woman, many women do not want to watch a movie that features rape. If it were a man, I would fear there's not enough action. If it were someone younger or less mature, I would worry that they wouldn't understand it. We here at the forum are jaded because we watch everything, but a lot of people don't. We are not talking about Back to the Future here. It's an R rated movie with adult content and themes. It's not for everyone. Recommending is far different than voting however. You are looking at the way you see things while also figuring that you know how others see them as well. The evidence points against your theory, and I can cite countless examples of it.

I also think accessibility and the idea of daring filmmaking can be just as subjective as what's good. I watched Dogtooth and In a Glass Cage before I had heard anyone mention them on the forum. I found them because I periodically search for these types of films, films that can potentially hit me in a powerful way. In that way, I was let down by both of them. I felt next to nothing. Earlier in the thread, you made the argument that Antwone Fisher was more disturbing than In a Glass Cage. Does that mean that Antwone Fisher is the less accessible of the two? I also mentioned that I thought Schindler's List was more disturbing than In a Glass Cage. In a Glass Cage is generally thought of as more disturbing than Dogtooth, and Schindler's List won best picture so round and round we go. You believe that Dogtooth is daring filmmaking and I do not. Dogtooth is not an original story and has been done before. The Secret in Their Eyes is not an original story either, but I would say that it is daring filmmaking. Besides religious subject matter, I would say political matter would be the most volatile. I don't talk about it because I don't understand it, but the main function of The Secret in Their Eyes is that of a political parable based on reality. The movie was a hit in Argentina, but it was also extremely controversial. Making a movie like that comes with implications and potential real life ramifications. I would call that daring, while understanding that daring is a quality without being synonymous with quality. There are multiple layers to the movie. We may not understand them, but does that mean the voters didn't either? I can promise you that if I had a vote, I would make it my business to understand them. Everything you say tells me the same thing; it wasn't the best foreign language film that year to me, so I will give an alternative reason as to why it won.

Thief

04-20-21, 04:53 PM

BARRY LYNDON
(1975, Kubrick)
A drama film

https://i.imgur.com/61I3vIT.jpg

"I shall not rest until I see you as Lord Lyndon. You have important friends. They can tell you how these things are done. For money, well-timed and properly applied, can accomplish anything."

Barry Lyndon follows the exploits of the titular Irishman, an opportunist that comes from humble means but sets himself to become an aristocrat at any cost during the 18th Century. The above quote is the vow that his mother declares as she joins and instigates many of the dubious dealings to elevate his son's social status.

Barry Lyndon (Ryan O'Neal) is, by all means, an insignificant person, that fights in insignificant skirmishes during the war, and gets involved in insignificant romances. His life history is bookended by insignificant duels for insignificant reasons, all while he aspires to achieve significance, to no avail.

This is the second time I watch this, and although I was a bit lukewarm on my first viewing, I ended up appreciating it a lot more this time. Present in it is Kubrick's perennial theme of dehumanization, as we see Lyndon dehumanized by his desire to climb the social ladder, which he briefly achieves, but to the expense of everyone around him.

It is ironic to think that Kubrick's original idea was to make a biopic about Napoleon, a man of allegedly small stature but great achievements, but then went the other way to make a film about Lyndon, a tall man (O'Neal is 6'1") but, again, of insignificant achievements. O'Neal might not be the best actor, the few emotional moments needed for his character are a bit lacking, but I think he was the best actor for this role.

But other than Lyndon's ups and downs through the aristocrat path, what takes center stage on this film is the amazing direction, cinematography, set design, and whatnot. The film is one of the most gorgeous films I've seen with every shot seemingly taken from a painting. There is a subtext in that, as we see characters that are essentially immoral and insignificant, surrounded by this facade of beauty in the background and surroundings.

As much as Barry and his mother tried to achieve significance, through "important friends" and money, their attempts ended up being fruitless in the end. Fate wasn't in Barry's favor, but it was in favor of this film which, despite being previously seen as rather insignificant amidst Kubrick's oeuvre, has gained more favor recently. It certainly did with me.

Grade: 4

Thief

04-20-21, 04:57 PM

Assuming I can watch Beasts tonight, do I have to post my review before 11:59:05 PM CT? or just send the ballot before 11:59:05 PM CT?

cricket

04-20-21, 05:01 PM

Assuming I can watch Beasts tonight, do I have to post my review before 11:59:05 PM CT? or just send the ballot before 11:59:05 PM CT?

In case he doesn't get back to you in time, I'd say the ballot is important and the review not so much

SpelingError

04-20-21, 05:20 PM

Assuming I can watch Beasts tonight, do I have to post my review before 11:59:05 PM CT? or just send the ballot before 11:59:05 PM CT?

Since you may be the last person to submit a review, make sure to submit it during the final five seconds. That way, my accomplishment of extending the deadline won't be in vain.

Thief

04-20-21, 05:22 PM

I might do it at 11:59:05 ET, but CT? Nahh

Thief

04-20-21, 05:53 PM

I don't know if I had linked this earlier on the thread, but for what it's worth, here's what I wrote about Beast of the Southern Wild back when I first saw it (2013?)

Beasts of the Southern Wild

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9tEuiVVVoE/UP3-6tP4yaI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/AcGtfrbZVNs/s1600/beasts+of+the+southern+wild+boat.jpg

Beasts of the Southern Wild is the first of the nine Best Picture nominees that I've seen. The film follows the lives of a fictional community in the Southern bayou in the middle of a storm and the resulting flood. It focuses on two characters: 6-year old Hushpuppy (Quvanzhané Wallis) and her father, Wink (Dwight Henry). Their lives aren't conventional, to put it mildly. At least from the perspective of the average viewer. They live in extreme poverty and Wink wouldn't be on the run to win "Father of the Year". But he does try, within his abilities and resources, to take care of his daughter.

Their lives get more complicated as Wink's health begins to worsen due to an unspecified illness, and due to the threat of a huge storm that approaches. The latter leaves their community flooded and their residents scrounging for food, while the former progressively weakens Wink.

The film felt a bit weird at times in that it feels like a documentary at times. There's a realistic and raw approach to it, in terms of directing, that I think benefits the story and its characters. But in the midst of it all, there's also a certain beauty and mystique to the images on screen. Kudos to first-time director, Benh Zeitlin, for that, and for pulling some excellent performances from both Wallis and Henry. Not that it was necessary, but reading about their real-life stories only adds weight to the strengths of the film. I would go as far as to say that, as impressive as Wallis' performance was, Henry was more deserving of a nomination.

The weakest part of the film, IMO, was the addition of a fantasy element with the approach of the "Aurochs". The director chose to integrate that into the main story, but I don't think he succeeded with it. To be honest, I don't think it was necessary, or that it could contribute much to the overall result. In the end, there was a disjointedness, a lack of cohesion and clear purpose between both parts. At least from my perspective.

But still, the film manages to hold its own on the strength of the two lead characters and their interactions. I really enjoyed that.

Grade: B+

The B+ would translate to 3.5, but who knows how it would fare now 8 years later.

Takoma11

04-20-21, 06:52 PM

Who is the victim in this movie? It's Morales, so I believe any debate on closure would make more sense directed toward his character. Does he achieve it? I'm not looking for an answer but rather I think it's a more relevant question when analyzing the film.

I think that Morales and Esposito are two sides of the same coin--both of them having sacrificed significantly in the name of getting justice for the murder victim. I think that each man finds a certain kind of closure, with a significant difference being that what Esposito lost--time with his lover--is not entirely lost.

As far as Esposito and Irene, I think a lot of the pain comes from the fact that they do rekindle. If they hadn't, then maybe they weren't meant to be together, and if they weren't meant to be together, they wouldn't have suffered such great loss. You seem to believe that Esposito can put everything behind him once they're together, achieving his closure, but I believe he will think about what happened every day of his life and it will haunt him. That includes the time he lost, the death of his best friend, and the ultimate fate of Morales. I don't see that as realistic. I would also find it unrealistic if they hadn't gotten back together at that point. I prefer miserable movies with miserable endings, but I need to believe it. Perhaps you would like the movie better if it was 10 minutes longer, and they got married but were then killed in a car accident on their honeymoon? I probably would too, but I'm happy with what I got. There's an old classic movie, I won't mention by name in case you haven't seen it, but the guy and girl get together at the end, yet the result is heartbreaking. How can that be? I think it was Siddon who commented in a previous HoF that I nominated misery porn, and he was right. That's what I like, and I still think this movie is better than those others.

I agree that they will both be haunted by what happened in the past, but I disagree that them getting back together somehow makes things sadder.

I'm not demanding a sad ending or criticizing that it has what I see as a generally happy ending. I'm juts pointing out that such an ending--with happy elements--is easier to take and makes it more likely for people to enjoy it.

It's a funny thing to say to me because I was fired at a video store as a teen for recommending people questionable movies, but now I'd be very careful about recommending The Secret in Their Eyes to a stranger. If it were a woman, many women do not want to watch a movie that features rape. If it were a man, I would fear there's not enough action. If it were someone younger or less mature, I would worry that they wouldn't understand it. We here at the forum are jaded because we watch everything, but a lot of people don't. We are not talking about Back to the Future here. It's an R rated movie with adult content and themes. It's not for everyone. Recommending is far different than voting however. You are looking at the way you see things while also figuring that you know how others see them as well. The evidence points against your theory, and I can cite countless examples of it.

Right, but Dogtooth and Mother both also contain what you are talking about in terms of subject matter. I just don't know what you mean by "the evidence". What evidence? Secret in Their Eyes is by far the more popular film, as seen by having more than 2.5 times the number of IMDb ratings as either of the other films. I have a hypothesis that the film's structure, plot, and style would have appealed broadly to Academy voters--and there's no way to prove or disprove that.

The main function of The Secret in Their Eyes is that of a political parable based on reality. . . There are multiple layers to the movie. We may not understand them, but does that mean the voters didn't either? I can promise you that if I had a vote, I would make it my business to understand them.

I mean, I know a decent amount about Argentinian history, and specifically the era covered by this film. I don't think I was missing any layers.

Everything you say tells me the same thing; it wasn't the best foreign language film that year to me, so I will give an alternative reason as to why it won.

You say "alternative reason" as though I am separating other factors from the film itself. But I'm not. I am looking at three films that I find very comparable in quality, and asking myself what gave one of them the edge when it came to a vote.

Art is subjective, so there's no such thing as the "best foreign film" of a certain year. There's just "the film that the most people thought was the best". I happen to think that certain elements of the film's structure give it an edge and make it have more broad appeal and to me, that could translate to more votes (or to more people actually watching the film, as many members who vote admit they don't watch all the movies!!). I can also concede that maybe most Academy members looked at each aspect of the film (acting, direction, writing, etc) and just had different opinions than mine about which would come out on top.

It sort of feels like you want me to say that it must have won because it was the better film, but obviously I don't think it was the better film, so that just puts us on a carousel.

Citizen Rules

04-20-21, 07:12 PM

After browsing through this forum, I noticed this this Hall of Fame has more posts than any other main Hall of Fame this forum has done in the past. A couple have 1,300+ posts, but this one currently has 1,500 posts and isn't even finished yet.Totally cool! I didn't know that this thread had so many post...wow! Thanks for posting it.

Assuming I can watch Beasts tonight, do I have to post my review before 11:59:05 PM CT? or just send the ballot before 11:59:05 PM CT?I'm thinking you'd be wise to both write your review and send the ballot before the deadline...Just to be safe. You wouldn't want to be DQed at this point would ya:eek:

neiba

04-20-21, 07:34 PM

Skammen (1968)

Every great director has a kind of a stamp in all of their films, an effect they create on the audience that is always there, notwithstanding the subject or the genre of the film. Kubrick always leaves me anxious and fearing the unknown, Mike Leigh gives me optimism even in the face of the darkest themes, Tarantino irradiates coolness... Bergman is among the greatest who ever lived so his stamp is a huge one. To me, it's like he holds a mirror and makes me look directly at the worst part of myself, always leaving me really depressed. It gets to the point of seeing small simple dialogues and feeling them all directed at me as if all my fouls were evident. However, and here lies the genius of Bergman, like the roses Eva talks about in the last scene of Skammen, "it's not that terrible because it's beautiful". He did that with love, death, religion, sex, identity and now war. And somehow, every one of his films is about everything at the same time.

This is the "anti-In a Glass Cage" and it's funny I watched them both today: It's shocking without being cheap. It's deep and symbolic without ever being pretentious. In sum, it's true art.
There are so many great things about this film. The cinematography is perhaps the most beautiful I've seen in one of his films and that is a HUGE statement. The photography of the film looks absolutely breathtaking and many many shots deserved to be in a museum.
The acting is perfect. Liv Ullmann (damn, what a woman...) and Max von Sydow are two monsters of acting and they complement each other so well.
Then, there's the direction. Bergman was a theatre director and it shows. He has such tight control over everything... The silences, the pauses, the text, everything is so well measured, everything happens in a time that allows the viewer to take it all and ponder on what the characters are really saying.
Then there are small characters with weird traits and cynic humour in the most unexpected places and all those little things that show and attention to detail absolutely unsurpassed.

This HoF was perhaps the most difficult one I ever did. Not because of the films nominated but because I need to be mentally well to really enjoy cinema and I haven't been, because lockdown has taken its toll. I suspected this would happen, hence being so unsure of joining this in the first place, and I was regretting joining. Well, I'm not anymore, so thank you to whoever picked this gem of a film.

4.5 -

neiba

04-20-21, 07:35 PM

Time to send the list, finally finish the Personal Rec HoF (sorry cricket) and take a break from HoFs for a while. Thank you everyone :)

Torgo

04-20-21, 07:46 PM

cricket

04-20-21, 07:47 PM

I think that Morales and Esposito are two sides of the same coin--both of them having sacrificed significantly in the name of getting justice for the murder victim. I think that each man finds a certain kind of closure, with a significant difference being that what Esposito lost--time with his lover--is not entirely lost.

I agree that they will both be haunted by what happened in the past, but I disagree that them getting back together somehow makes things sadder.

I'm not demanding a sad ending or criticizing that it has what I see as a generally happy ending. I'm juts pointing out that such an ending--with happy elements--is easier to take and makes it more likely for people to enjoy it.

It's cool if you see it that way. Again, my viewpoint is that all of that lost time is magnified by the fact that they do get together. If Esposito leaves Morales' house and the movie ends, I don't even feel that part of the movie.

Right, but Dogtooth and Mother both also contain what you are talking about in terms of subject matter. I just don't know what you mean by "the evidence". What evidence? Secret in Their Eyes is by far the more popular film, as seen by having more than 2.5 times the number of IMDb ratings as either of the other films. I have a hypothesis that the film's structure, plot, and style would have appealed broadly to Academy voters--and there's no way to prove or disprove that.

What I mean by evidence is all of the examples of a so called more accessible film not winning. It happens a lot, yet this particular time you believe the film won because of that reason, and it just so happens to be a time when you disagree with the result.

I mean, I know a decent amount about Argentinian history, and specifically the era covered by this film. I don't think I was missing any layers.

I don't question that you know plenty about it but you did say you didn't know the film was intended to be analogous.

You say "alternative reason" as though I am separating other factors from the film itself. But I'm not. I am looking at three films that I find very comparable in quality, and asking myself what gave one of them the edge when it came to a vote.

That's it right there. You find them comparable, so you are looking for what gave one the edge (alternative reason). Personally, an uncomfortable and upsetting movie is what gives one the edge for me, yet I go the other way in this particular comparison. You have no idea of what the voters are thinking. I would tend to believe that on average the voters are voting for the movie that they believe to be better.

Art is subjective, so there's no such thing as the "best foreign film" of a certain year. There's just "the film that the most people thought was the best". I happen to think that certain elements of the film's structure give it an edge and make it have more broad appeal and to me, that could translate to more votes (or to more people actually watching the film, as many members who vote admit they don't watch all the movies!!). I can also concede that maybe most Academy members looked at each aspect of the film (acting, direction, writing, etc) and just had different opinions than mine about which would come out on top.

I agree with most of that except you have no idea what appeals to the voters, and again I point to other "less accessible films winning awards". If what you say is really a factor, I would expect more consistency out of the results.

It sort of feels like you want me to say that it must have won because it was the better film, but obviously I don't think it was the better film, so that just puts us on a carousel.

No not at all. The gap I have between those movies is much greater than yours, yet I would never declare that any of them are better, only that one is better for me. That's as far as I would go. My gripe is your disbelief that the voters could be voting for the right reasons because it doesn't coincide with your belief. Every year you hear people say the Awards suck and they don't know what they're doing, except the times they happen to agree with the result.

rauldc14

04-20-21, 08:07 PM

Thanks for keeping your word and finishing neiba

Takoma11

04-20-21, 08:27 PM

It's cool if you see it that way. Again, my viewpoint is that all of that lost time is magnified by the fact that they do get together. If Esposito leaves Morales' house and the movie ends, I don't even feel that part of the movie.

I think it's bittersweet. I think that it's happy that they are together but, like you say, there will always be this shadow of lost time/what could have been over it.

What I mean by evidence is all of the examples of a so called more accessible film not winning. It happens a lot, yet this particular time you believe the film won because of that reason, and it just so happens to be a time when you disagree with the result.

I tend to find many if not most Best Foreign Film winners pretty accessible, or at least those that have won in my lifetime. Life is Beautiful, All About My Mother, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Barbarian Invasions, The Sea Inside, Roma, Parasite. (These are from years where I saw both the winning film and at least a few of its competitors).

There are films that I think are great that most other people think are great, and there are films I think are great that fall more into that love it/hate it place. When I say "accessible" or "broad appeal", I'm talking about films in the former category.

I don't question that you know plenty about it but you did say you didn't know the film was intended to be analogous.

I say that I don't find it that analogous because it is a film about political corruption in Argentina in the 80s that takes place . . . in a politically-tinged environment in Argentina in the 80s. You can say things like "Gomez represents all of the people who committed atrocities and got away with it," but I find that the analogy is then pretty close to the actual thing you are describing.

That's it right there. You find them comparable, so you are looking for what gave one the edge (alternative reason). Personally, an uncomfortable and upsetting movie is what gives one the edge for me, yet I go the other way in this particular comparison. You have no idea of what the voters are thinking. I would tend to believe that on average the voters are voting for the movie that they believe to be better.

I mean . . . I also think people vote for what they think is the better film. And I am suggesting that several elements of The Secret in Their Eyes and specifically the emotions it produces in the viewer would make people inclined to like it more than something more divisive like Dogtooth. I think it's strange to pretend that things like genre don't influence how much people like a certain film. And structure/plot/organization are NOT an "alternative reason" because they are actually aspects of the film itself. An alternative reason would be something like "Oh, the director died so they want to give it the award" or "Oh, that country just had a disaster and we want to boost their spirits!"--something outside of the film itself.

I agree with most of that except you have no idea what appeals to the voters, and again I point to other "less accessible films winning awards". If what you say is really a factor, I would expect more consistency out of the results.

Several interviews (around Brokeback Mountain, but the point still stands) has indicated that many Academy members will straight up avoid films if they don't like the subject matter. I'm inferring that most Academy members would be comfortable with a thriller/mystery like The Secret in Their Eyes.

No not at all. The gap I have between those movies is much greater than yours, yet I would never declare that any of them are better, only that one is better for me. That's as far as I would go. My gripe is your disbelief that the voters could be voting for the right reasons because it doesn't coincide with your belief. Every year you hear people say the Awards suck and they don't know what they're doing, except the times they happen to agree with the result.

I don't know what you mean by "the right reasons". Liking a film the best is the right reason. And while I have ideas about why the film won (all of which have to do with the film itself and not anything external), I'm not mad about it winning. I'm not saying it shouldn't have won.

I mean, when I say that I think that the other films are better, of course I mean that they are better for me. And since I can place other films above it, of course I can imagine other people doing the same.

Not to stoke the flames too much, but I just learned in reading more about this that The Headless Woman came out the same year and Argentina decided not to nominate it! So my hot take is now that it's fine that The Secret in Their Eyes won the Oscar, but also that it's funny that there was a better Argentinian film that year that didn't even get a shot.

cricket

04-20-21, 10:29 PM

I think it's bittersweet. I think that it's happy that they are together but, like you say, there will always be this shadow of lost time/what could have been over it.

I would completely agree with that in regards to Esposito and Irene. I also see part of the conclusion is that Esposito is, in the words of the director, "horrified", by what happened in regards to Morales. This will leave a permanent scar. There's a part the director brought up in the interview that I saw, and it was the exact moment I knew I was going to love the movie. When Esposito gets to the crime scene you can tell he is deeply affected by it, and the director says, "it will affect him the rest of his life". In another thriller type of movie, the cop would be cool, say let's get the evidence, and get out of there. Esposito also has the permanent guilt and trauma of his best friend being murdered. In a typical Hollywood ending, the couple would ride off into the sunset without a care in the world. In this film, you have severely damaged people who are going to give it a shot.

I tend to find many if not most Best Foreign Film winners pretty accessible, or at least those that have won in my lifetime. Life is Beautiful, All About My Mother, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Barbarian Invasions, The Sea Inside, Roma, Parasite. (These are from years where I saw both the winning film and at least a few of its competitors).

You would also have to compare them with the other nominees. Are these the most accessible films that were nominated that year? I didn't like Life is Beautiful but I don't remember it. I should see it again. I know it was nominated for best picture as well. I liked Central Station more. I loved All About My Mother but I question how accessible it is given some of the content and characters. Never seen Crouching Tiger and never wanted to. Never seen The Barbarian Invasions and I'm unfamiliar with it. I liked The Sea Inside a good amount but I'm not sure how much a film about a dying man appeals to most people. I think the average person would find Roma boring even though I liked it. There's probably a difference between the average viewer and average voter though. I think Cappernaum and Shoplifters are both easier watches. Parasite also won best picture of course. This is interesting to me because Americans watch foreign films less than any other kinds of films. In that regard I think it's fair to call Parasite not accessible to the general public. More on that next.

There are films that I think are great that most other people think are great, and there are films I think are great that fall more into that love it/hate it place. When I say "accessible" or "broad appeal", I'm talking about films in the former category.

If a movie is good enough, like a Parasite, I don't think it matters if the movie is accessible or not. If the quality is high enough, I believe it overrides anything else.

I say that I don't find it that analogous because it is a film about political corruption in Argentina in the 80s that takes place . . . in a politically-tinged environment in Argentina in the 80s. You can say things like "Gomez represents all of the people who committed atrocities and got away with it," but I find that the analogy is then pretty close to the actual thing you are describing.

I read a little bit about it but it's beyond my comprehension. Apparently there's a lot of things that would only be picked up by Argentinians.

I mean . . . I also think people vote for what they think is the better film. And I am suggesting that several elements of The Secret in Their Eyes and specifically the emotions it produces in the viewer would make people inclined to like it more than something more divisive like Dogtooth. I think it's strange to pretend that things like genre don't influence how much people like a certain film. And structure/plot/organization are NOT an "alternative reason" because they are actually aspects of the film itself. An alternative reason would be something like "Oh, the director died so they want to give it the award" or "Oh, that country just had a disaster and we want to boost their spirits!"--something outside of the film itself.

Well, what do you consider inaccessible about Dogtooth? When I say your alternative reason, I'm speaking solely on your view that it's more accessible. In my mind, that has nothing to do with structure/plot/organization. We might have different definitions of the word.

Several interviews (around Brokeback Mountain, but the point still stands) has indicated that many Academy members will straight up avoid films if they don't like the subject matter. I'm inferring that most Academy members would be comfortable with a thriller/mystery like The Secret in Their Eyes.

I would also guess that like us, there are members who would favor a movie like that. I would say like most things it evens out. It at least was nominated and Moonlight recently won.

I don't know what you mean by "the right reasons". Liking a film the best is the right reason. And while I have ideas about why the film won (all of which have to do with the film itself and not anything external), I'm not mad about it winning. I'm not saying it shouldn't have won.

Well I don't think voting for a movie because it appears to have a broader appeal is the right reason.

Not to stoke the flames too much, but I just learned in reading more about this that The Headless Woman came out the same year and Argentina decided not to nominate it! So my hot take is now that it's fine that The Secret in Their Eyes won the Oscar, but also that it's funny that there was a better Argentinian film that year that didn't even get a shot.

Never heard of it before. It looks interesting but it doesn't appear that many people think highly of it. What I just found out is that Dogtooth wasn't even nominated the same year as Secret in Their Eyes even though they came out the same year. Dogtooth was nominated the next year and lost to In a Better World, which certainly doesn't sound like a crowd pleaser. Incendies and Biutiful, both of which I prefer to Dogtooth, were also nominated. If you like Dogtooth so much you may also be interested in The Castle of Purity. It's on my watchlist.

Takoma11

04-20-21, 11:04 PM

In a typical Hollywood ending, the couple would ride off into the sunset without a care in the world. In this film, you have severely damaged people who are going to give it a shot.

Considering what happened to many Argentinians who went up against the government, the fact that both Esposito and his love interest survived physically intact and were able to be together in the end is a relatively happy ending. I agree that the film makes it clear that they will carry a lot of baggage (both on their own and as a couple) even if their relationship is mostly positive.

Have you seen La Historia Oficial? (Another Argentinian Best Foreign Film winner that deals with this era of Argentinia history).

I read a little bit about it but it's beyond my comprehension. Apparently there's a lot of things that would only be picked up by Argentinians.

I believe that. But I also really doubt that many Academy members did a lot of research to pick up on any of those deeper layers of meaning.

Well, what do you consider inaccessible about Dogtooth? When I say your alternative reason, I'm speaking solely on your view that it's more accessible. In my mind, that has nothing to do with structure/plot/organization. We might have different definitions of the word.

By "accessible" I mean a film that can be mostly followed (on both a plot and emotional/character arc) level without doing too much heavy lifting. The "bare bones" of The Secret in Their Eyes are those of a typical murder mystery/political thriller. The main character is a detective trying to do the right thing. The villains are very obvious. The theme of regret is explicitly voiced by the main character several times. Toward the end (and while I liked the film, I thought this part was SO heavy handed), he takes a index card that reads "Temo" (I fear) and adds an "a" so that it reads "Te Amo" (I love you). Fear becomes love. He then rushes to her office where, breathing heavily, he declares his love. To the sound of happy, hopeful music, she smiles broadly in a bright room next to bright flowers and tells him to come in. The final shot is literally a door closing. You could watch this film and pay almost zero attention to the entire political element and still come away feeling like you "got it".

By contrast, I think that something like Mother is a bit more daring and complicated in its ending. I think that it leaves you not knowing quite how to feel. I think that it is also a relatively accessible film, but I think that the character arc is a bit more complex and the resolution is not as "neat".

My opinion is just "I'm not surprised that more people like The Secret in Their Eyes even though I like other films better."

I would also guess that like us, there are members who would favor a movie like that. I would say like most things it evens out. It at least was nominated and Moonlight recently won.

I was thrilled with Moonlight's win (not the least because I have a friend who frequently collaborates with the writer, who I think is amazing), but Crash over Brokeback Mountain to me displays that often a kind of comfortable competency hits the right notes with a large enough chunk of voters to pull out a win.

Well I don't think voting for a movie because it appears to have a broader appeal is the right reason.

I'm not saying people are voting for the film they think will be more popular. I'm saying they genuinely liked it! But I do question just a little (as I do with the other categories), the degree to which genre and surface-level story play a role.

Never heard of it before. It looks interesting but it doesn't appear that many people think highly of it. What I just found out is that Dogtooth wasn't even nominated the same year as Secret in Their Eyes even though they came out the same year. Dogtooth was nominated the next year and lost to In a Better World, which certainly doesn't sound like a crowd pleaser. Incendies and Biutiful, both of which I prefer to Dogtooth, were also nominated. If you like Dogtooth so much you may also be interested in The Castle of Purity. It's on my watchlist.

The Headless Woman is excellent and disturbing and darkly funny. It has layered critique of class and race politics in South America and it doesn't spoon-feed you anything. I would highly recommend it.

I'll keep an eye out for Castle of Purity, though it doesn't seem to be streaming on any of my services currently.

Thief

04-20-21, 11:18 PM

https://media.giphy.com/media/9r2SHBt57WVelxd9t1/giphy.gif

Thief

04-20-21, 11:51 PM

BEASTS OF THE SOUTHERN WILD
(2012, Zeitlin)
A drama film

https://nofilmschool.com/sites/default/files/styles/facebook/public/uploads/2012/08/Beasts-of-the-Southern-Wild.jpg?itok=3QEaPFGV

"Sometimes you can break something so bad, that it can't get put back together."

Set in an isolated fictional community called "The Bathtub", Beasts of the Southern Wild follows the lives of 6-year old Hushpuppy (Quvanzhané Wallis) and her father, Wink (Dwight Henry). The two live in extreme poverty as they struggle to take care of each other. Their lives, essentially broken by past events: be it the abandonment of Hushpuppy's mother or Wink's deteriorating health. To make matters worse, a huge storm lashes the community, leaving its residents to fend for themselves.

Rookie director Benh Zeitlin chooses a somewhat unconventional approach to the film, with a mostly raw and down-to-earth approach to filming that fits the "crudeness" of the life in this community. But he also mixes a social and environmental commentary about climate change with a fantasy element represented by the approach of the "aurochs", some primitive creatures that have broken free from the ice and are heading to "The Bathtub".

It is in this fantasy element that lies the film's main weakness. I kinda understand the intention, but I don't think it was successfully integrated into the main story. As a result, there's a bit of a jarring shift as the film tries to weave that symbolism into the plot. Ultimately, I don't think it was necessary at all.

The focus of the story is, and should've only been, the dynamics between Hushpuppy and Wink, and how they try to put the pieces of their life back together. Both Wallis and Henry deliver a pair of great performances, which is more impressive considering that none of them were actors. Henry wasn't even looking to audition, but decided to read for the part after he met the film crew who used to have breakfast at his bakery.

I watched this film for the first time in 2013, and I really didn't feel a lot of change in how I felt now in 2021 from what I felt then. Maybe the melodrama was a bit more off-putting now than it was then. However, I felt a stronger connection and more of a "punch" from both Hushpuppy and Wink than I felt then. Perhaps it's called "parenting".

Grade: 3.5

Thief

04-21-21, 12:02 AM

Ballot sent!

Seriously, thanks to everybody for some great recommendations. I enjoyed every single film I saw for this. Like I said a couple of pages ago, even Rudderless, which would've probably been at the "bottom" of my ballot, was a film I enjoyed a lot. One of the things I enjoyed the most was how different every single nominated film was. From kickass foreign action to powerfully emotional dramas, and anything in between. So once again, thanks to all for a diverse and intense journey :laugh:

TheUsualSuspect

04-21-21, 01:04 AM

Thanks for keeping your word and finishing neiba

:(:(:(

rauldc14

04-21-21, 08:40 AM

I have started to add things up, unveil later this afternoon. Any predictions?

Torgo

04-21-21, 08:48 AM

I have started to add things up, unveil later this afternoon. Any predictions?The Day of the Jackal or The Man From Nowhere may take the top spot. Everyone seemed to like those.

Thief

04-21-21, 10:09 AM

I have started to add things up, unveil later this afternoon. Any predictions?

In a Glass Cage will be at the bottom. As for the top, I think I agree with Torgo: The Man from Nowhere and The Day of the Jackal might be the top ones.

EDIT: I have a feeling that the Top 5 could be something like this...

The Secret In Their Eyes
The Man from Nowhere
The Day of the Jackal
Shame
La Dolce Vita

Not in that order. Aniara and Hard Times might also sneak in there.

pahaK

04-21-21, 10:48 AM

In a Glass Cage will be at the bottom.

It's my nomination, so that's always a safe prediction :)

Thief

04-21-21, 10:51 AM

It's my nomination, so that's always a safe prediction :)

For what it's worth, it's not a diss at the film. But considering the... umm... ardent reaction it got from a few people here, I think it's a safe bet it'll be at or near the bottom.

rauldc14

04-21-21, 11:28 AM

Might post the first 5 or so at 11 Central, then a few more later so on and so forth. Everything will be known today though :)

Siddon

04-21-21, 12:16 PM

In a Glass Cage will be at the bottom. As for the top, I think I agree with Torgo: The Man from Nowhere and The Day of the Jackal might be the top ones.

EDIT: I have a feeling that the Top 5 could be something like this...

The Secret In Their Eyes
The Man from Nowhere
The Day of the Jackal
Shame
La Dolce Vita

Not in that order. Aniara and Hard Times might also sneak in there.

Vampyr
Barry Lyndon
Shame
The Man From Nowhere
La Dolce Vita

rauldc14

04-21-21, 12:17 PM

13th Place

In a Glass Cage

https://www.mondo-digital.com/glasscage3big.jpg

44 Points (1st, 7th, 4 10th, 12th, 6 13th)

rauldc14

04-21-21, 12:19 PM

12th Place

Aniara

https://variety.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/aniara.jpg

61 Points (1st, 4th, 8th, 4 9th, 10th, 4 12th, 13th)

Siddon

04-21-21, 12:20 PM

That's a pity, I gave that a #4....I really dug and think about that one quite a bit.

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 12:24 PM

No surprise on last place. I might have guessed Aniara a bit higher.

Thief

04-21-21, 12:27 PM

12th Place

Aniara

https://variety.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/aniara.jpg

61 Points (1st, 4th, 8th, 4 9th, 10th, 4 12th, 13th)

Hmm, I'm surprised. I thought the response was a bit more on the positive side.

rauldc14

04-21-21, 12:31 PM

11th Place

Beasts of the Southern Wild

https://static.rogerebert.com/uploads/review/primary_image/reviews/beasts-of-the-southern-wild-2012/EB20120704REVIEWS120709994AR.jpg

69 Points (3 3rds, 2 6th, 3 10th, 11th, 12th, 3 13th)

rauldc14

04-21-21, 12:31 PM

Hmm, I'm surprised. I thought the response was a bit more on the positive side.

I had Aniara at 8. I did like it.

Thief

04-21-21, 12:37 PM

I had Aniara at 8. I did like it.

To be clear, it just surprised me a bit. It doesn't bother me. I'm happy with the feedback I got through the course of the HOF.

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 12:40 PM

Hmm, I'm surprised. I thought the response was a bit more on the positive side.I think you're right most people thought it was an interesting movie, but...there's a lot of interesting movies in this HoF so no matter how good they all are, some have to be at the bottom of the list. I'm just glad you joined!

Thief

04-21-21, 12:40 PM

Ha! Looking at past reviews for every film and I guess I think which one will take #1, and it's not one of the ones I mentioned before :D

rauldc14

04-21-21, 12:44 PM

10th Place

Hard Times

https://i1.wp.com/thisdistractedglobe.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Hardtimes2.jpg

76 Points (4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 5 8th, 10th, 2 11th, 12th)

Torgo

04-21-21, 01:07 PM

Not bad for my first time. I'm glad some of you enjoyed it.

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 01:15 PM

Good chance La Dolce Vita takes this.

rauldc14

04-21-21, 01:27 PM

9th Place

The Whisperers

https://jackandsteveblether.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/whisperers.jpg?w=620

86 Points (1st, 2 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 3 11th, 2 12th)

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:27 PM

Oh ****, we've already started.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:28 PM

So far, it's turning out exactly as I expected.

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 01:28 PM

Also, I had Hard Times at 8 I think? Really liked it

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:28 PM

I really liked Hard Times, personally.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:29 PM

I assume that Vampyr will be about in the middle. Some people liked it, but others were mixed on it.

rauldc14

04-21-21, 01:29 PM

8th Place

Antwone Fisher

https://i0.wp.com/midwestfilmjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/AntwoneFisher-2002.jpg?fit=800%2C450&ssl=1

89 Points (1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 2 6th, 2 7th, 10th, 3 11th, 13th)

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 01:30 PM

Was hoping The Whisperers would have finished higher, but it wasn’t a movie for everyone.
No hard feelings!

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:31 PM

I expected Antwone Fisher to finish higher, personally. I gave it a 7/10, btw.

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 01:32 PM

I assume that Vampyr will be about in the middle. Some people liked it, but others were mixed on it.

I had it pretty high. Good chance it finished in top 5 IMO.

Siddon

04-21-21, 01:34 PM

I assume that Vampyr will be about in the middle. Some people liked it, but others were mixed on it.

Wouldn't mind seeing it win to be honest with you

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:35 PM

Wouldn't mind seeing it win to be honest with you

Aw, thx. I had it at number 1 on my ballot.

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 01:36 PM

Antwone Fisher was ok, wasn’t bad, but didn’t do enough for me to separate it from Good Will Hunting which covered similar territory much better.

Denzel was good in it though, as he usually is.

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 01:38 PM

Wouldn't mind seeing it win to be honest with you

Same. I’m rooting for it, or La Dolce Vita. Either would please me.

Siddon

04-21-21, 01:38 PM

Little surprised that Fisher did better than Beasts, Animara, and Hard Time

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:38 PM

Are we allowed to reveal our ballot, btw, or should I wait till this finishes up before posting it?

Siddon

04-21-21, 01:40 PM

Are we allowed to reveal our ballot, btw, or should I wait till this finishes up before posting it?

You can reveal what has already been revealed

??????
??????
??????
Aniara
??????
Beasts of the Southern Wild
Antwoine Fisher
Hard Times
??????
In a Glass Cage
??????
The Whisperers
??????

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:41 PM

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. Hard Times
5. ???
6. The Whisperers
7. ???
8. ???
9. ???
10. Beasts of the Southern Wild
11. Antwone Fisher
12. Aniara
13. In a Glass Cage

SpelingError

04-21-21, 01:44 PM

Fun Fact: There used to be an Italian restaurant in my city called La Dolca Vita, which was named after the film. However, it had to change its name since the two brothers who owned it went to prison for attempted murder.

Thief

04-21-21, 02:01 PM

Here's mine...

Aniara
The Whisperers
???
???
???
???
Antwone Fisher
???
???
???
Hard Times
Beasts of the Southern Wild
In a Glass Cage

rauldc14

04-21-21, 02:07 PM

Glad Fisher did decently well, cool that a few loved it.

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 02:09 PM

Glad Fisher did decently well, cool that a few loved it.I think it was a rock solid script and movie...I enjoyed it.

rauldc14

04-21-21, 02:10 PM

7th Place

The Man from Nowhere

https://6.vikiplatform.com/image/818cfacf2676467a9dd1d06db7346baf.jpg?x=b&a=0x0

93 Points (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 2 5th, 2 7th, 2 8th, 2 9th, 2 11th)

SpelingError

04-21-21, 02:14 PM

The Man From Nowhere was pretty good. I liked the action over the story, but still a lot of great action set pieces.

Thief

04-21-21, 02:16 PM

Glad Fisher did decently well, cool that a few loved it.

Not to beat on a dead horse, but I would like to reiterate once again, despite the rankings, how much I enjoyed every single film that was nominated and for so many wildly different reasons. I mean, I gave my "bottom" film a 3.5, so that means that all of them were at that level or better. That's a testament to how much quality was in these films.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 02:17 PM

Yeah, I gave a 6/10 to my least favorite film in here. Pretty good selection!

rauldc14

04-21-21, 02:23 PM

6th Place

The Secret in Their Eyes

https://cinema1544.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/train_farewell.jpg

94 Points (1st, 2 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 3 8th, 2 9th, 11th, 12th)

SpelingError

04-21-21, 02:23 PM

Yay, I made the top 5!

Siddon

04-21-21, 02:26 PM

?????
?????
?????
Aniara
The Man From Nowhere
Beasts of the Southern Wild
Antwoine Fisher
Hard Times
??????
In a Glass Cage
The Secret in Their Eyes
The Whisperers
??????

SpelingError

04-21-21, 02:28 PM

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. Hard Times
5. ???
6. The Whisperers
7. ???
8. The Secret in Their Eyes
9. The Man From Nowhere
10. Beasts of the Southern Wild
11. Antwone Fisher
12. Aniara
13. In a Glass Cage

Thief

04-21-21, 02:31 PM

Aniara
The Whisperers
The Secret In Their Eyes
The Man from Nowhere
???
???
Antwone Fisher
???
???
???
Hard Times
Beasts of the Southern Wild
In a Glass Cage

rauldc14

04-21-21, 02:34 PM

1. Antwone Fisher

5. The Man from Nowhere

8. Aniara
9. Secret in Their Eyes
10. Beasts of the Southern Wild
11. Hard Times
12. The Whisperers
13. In a Glass Cage

That's mine so far

rauldc14

04-21-21, 02:35 PM

Predictions for top 5?

Siddon

04-21-21, 02:36 PM

Predictions for top 5?

1. Vampyr
2. Barry Lyndon
3. La Dolce Vita
4. Shame
5. Day of the Jackyll

SpelingError

04-21-21, 02:37 PM

Here are my predictions:

5. The Day of the Jackal
4. Vampyr
3. Shame
2. La Dolca Vita
1. Barry Lyndon

Thief

04-21-21, 02:37 PM

Predictions for top 5?

1. Barry Lyndon
2. Shame
3. La Dolce Vita
4. The Day of the Jackal
5. Vampyr

Siddon

04-21-21, 02:51 PM

I'm happy to see older films in the top five...we haven't had a 70's winner since 2014

rauldc14

04-21-21, 02:56 PM

I'm happy to see older films in the top five...we haven't had a 70's winner since 2014

Strange, I didn't see that till now. Good catch.

seanc

04-21-21, 02:59 PM

No huge surprises she far. I expected Beasts to be a bit higher but thought we would see it by now.

Off to see if I still have my list.

rauldc14

04-21-21, 03:02 PM

5th Place

Vampyr

https://nofspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/vampyr-1932-silver-screams-e1579556204661.jpg

99 Points (1st, 3 3rd, 2 4th, 5th, 2 9th, 3 10th, 12th)

SpelingError

04-21-21, 03:03 PM

5th place is still good :up:

Excited to see which film won this.

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:06 PM

just popped on to see WHEN this was going to happen ---
Looks like I'll be in time for the top run. . .

rauldc14

04-21-21, 03:12 PM

4th Place

The Day of the Jackal

https://homemcr.org/app/uploads/2017/10/The-Day-of-the-Jackal-1-940x460.jpg

105 Points (1st, 3 2nd, 2 4th, 2 5th, 6th, 3 7th, 13th)

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 03:15 PM

I'm happy to see older films in the top five...we haven't had a 70's winner since 2014Yeah, kind of sad that old films often don't get the same love as new stuff in HoFs.

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:17 PM

Pretty happy to see my nom make it up to #4.
Everything seems to be panning out as I thought it would.
Here's mine so far:

1)
2) The Day of the Jackal (#4)
3) Beasts of the Southern Wild (#11)
4) The Whisperers (#9)
5) Vampyr (#5)
6)
7) The Man from Nowhere (#7)
8) Hard Times (#10)
9) The Secret in Their Eyes (#6)
10) Antwone Fisher (#8)
11)
12) In a Glass Cage (#13)
13) Aniara (#12)

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 03:17 PM

Yeah, kind of sad that old films don't get the same love as new stuff in HoFs.

Completely agree! I don’t nominate any films from the last 20 years for that reason.

Siddon

04-21-21, 03:18 PM

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:19 PM

I'd actually have to look and see where the majority of mine were. Not sure if I've ever nominated a film within the past decade.

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:21 PM

I didn't care for Day of the Jackal...mostly because I've seen the same film done better too many times.

????????
????????
Vampyr
Aniara
The Man From Nowhere
Beasts of the Southern Wild
Antwoine Fisher
Hard Times
???????
In a Glass Cage
The Secret in Their Eyes
Rudderless
The Whisperers
Day of the Jackyll

Since I do enjoy the genre so much, I'd love to know a few that come to mind. Perhaps there may be one or more I would add to my Watchlist

rauldc14

04-21-21, 03:22 PM

3rd Place

Shame

https://www.sensesofcinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/112509ullmann718-718x400.jpg

113 Points (1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd, 4th, 2 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th)

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 03:23 PM

I didn't care for Day of the Jackal...mostly because I've seen the same film done better too many times.

????????
????????
Vampyr
Aniara
The Man From Nowhere
Beasts of the Southern Wild
Antwoine Fisher
Hard Times
???????
In a Glass Cage
The Secret in Their Eyes
Rudderless
The Whisperers
Day of the Jackyll

I loved Jackal, but I too, would like to know any recommendations that are similar but might be better.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 03:23 PM

I predict that Barry Lyndon will win.

Loved Shame, btw.

rauldc14

04-21-21, 03:24 PM

I enjoy a nice spread of decades in these HOFs which usually happens.

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:26 PM

Nice to see Bergman score so high.

1)
2) The Day of the Jackal (#4)
3) Beasts of the Southern Wild (#11)
4) The Whisperers (#9)
5) Vampyr (#5)
6)
7) The Man from Nowhere (#7)
8) Hard Times (#10)
9) The Secret in Their Eyes (#6)
10) Antwone Fisher (#8)
11) Shame (#3)
12) In a Glass Cage (#13)
13) Aniara (#12)

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:28 PM

Just looked at the General HoFs and I surprised myself to see that the majority was after the 80s with a couple in the 2000s and one from the 2010s.

Siddon

04-21-21, 03:32 PM

Since I do enjoy the genre so much, I'd love to know a few that come to mind. Perhaps there may be one or more I would add to my Watchlist

I've nominated State of Siege and Le Samurai before

Three Days of the Condor
Alphaville
World on a Wire
The Finger Man
The Red Circle
Tokyo Drifter
The Man Who Knew Too Much
Foreign Correspondent
39 Steps
The Killing
Odd Man Out
Kiss Me Deadly
White Material
Brick
Under the Silver Lake

cricket

04-21-21, 03:33 PM

OK I'm here let's get started

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:35 PM

I've nominated State of Siege and Le Samurai before

Three Days of the Condor
Alphaville
World on a Wire
The Finger Man
The Red Circle
Tokyo Drifter
The Man Who Knew Too Much
Foreign Correspondent
39 Steps
Brick
Under the Silver Lake
I have Alphaville on my List; looking forward to that one. BIG fan of Three Days of the Condor and I'll be looking into the others, some sound familar.
THANKS Siddon!

seanc

04-21-21, 03:37 PM

I've nominated State of Siege and Le Samurai before

Three Days of the Condor
Alphaville
World on a Wire
The Finger Man
The Red Circle
Tokyo Drifter
The Man Who Knew Too Much
Foreign Correspondent
39 Steps
Brick
Under the Silver Lake

Haven’t seen two of these but I would put Day of The Jackal number two behind Red Circle.

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 03:37 PM

I've nominated State of Siege and Le Samurai before

Three Days of the Condor
Alphaville
World on a Wire
The Finger Man
The Red Circle
Tokyo Drifter
The Man Who Knew Too Much
Foreign Correspondent
39 Steps
Brick
Under the Silver Lake
Seen Condor, Man who knew too much, 39 Steps, and Brick.
Of those,I would rate only 39 Steps higher, though Brick and Condor both come close.
Also, an aside, Was World on a Wire ever released in theatres? Just curious.

Siddon

04-21-21, 03:37 PM

I have Alphaville on my List; looking forward to that one. BIG fan of Three Days of the Condor and I'll be looking into the others, some sound familar.
THANKS Siddon!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nh5zcGUsE

I might pick this one for the next hall...it's a very different political thriller but it was very good.

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:39 PM

Haven’t seen two of these but I would put Day of The Jackal number two behind Red Circle.
Red Circle WAS pretty solid

edarsenal

04-21-21, 03:42 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nh5zcGUsE

I might pick this one for the next hall...it's a very different political thriller but it was very good.

That looks really good!

Also, just realized that The Finger Man is Le Doulos. Saw that recently and loved it. One of several Melville's that I've become enamored with. Le Deuxième Souffle is another recently seen and loved.

And I do believe I'll be adding Foreign Correspondent to my Watchlist.

Thief

04-21-21, 04:04 PM

I think Foreign Correspondent is an underappreciated gem. It's on my Hitchcock Top 5.

Thief

04-21-21, 04:04 PM

Aniara
The Whisperers
The Secret In Their Eyes
The Man from Nowhere
The Day of the Jackal
???
Antwone Fisher
Shame
???
Vampyr
Hard Times
Beasts of the Southern Wild
In a Glass Cage

Siddon

04-21-21, 04:30 PM

Raul might be dragging this out just a bit....

SpelingError

04-21-21, 04:32 PM

GET ON WITH IT!!!!!

cricket

04-21-21, 04:32 PM

Raul might be dragging this out just a bit....

Maybe it's a hint and he's doing his best Fellini impersonation.

Thief

04-21-21, 04:43 PM

Maybe it's a hint and he's doing his best Fellini impersonation.

Or maybe he's just drunk somewhere...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/34/66/f334663310eada80197d2751f3d2bd8e.jpg

Somebody oughta go and demand satisfaction.

pahaK

04-21-21, 05:11 PM

Here's my ballot with the two mystery movies.

01: In a Glass Cage
02: The Day of the Jackal
03: The Man from Nowhere
04:
05: The Secret in Their Eyes
06:
07: Hard Times
08: The Whisperers
09: Vampyr
10: Aniara
11: Beasts of the Southern Wild
12: Shame
13: Antwone Fisher

SpelingError

04-21-21, 05:14 PM

Here's my current ballot. I'm fine with either Barry Lyndon or La Dolce Vita winning.

1. Vampyr
2. ???
3. ???
4. Hard Times
5. Shame
6. The Whisperers
7. The Day of the Jackal
8. The Secret in Their Eyes
9. The Man From Nowhere
10. Beasts of the Southern Wild
11. Antwone Fisher
12. Aniara
13. In a Glass Cage

Siddon

04-21-21, 05:38 PM

Well at hour 5....I guess I have to go. I hope I won I was the one who won the last time an Old film won...in 2018

SpelingError

04-21-21, 05:42 PM

How many foreign films have won a main HoF in the past?

EDIT: Several of them. I checked the main thread.

Siddon

04-21-21, 05:46 PM

How many foreign films have won a main HoF in the past?

6...

400 Blows
Autumn Sonanta
Sansho
A Separation
Contrateimpo
The Hunt

rauldc14

04-21-21, 07:06 PM

2nd Place

La Dolce Vita

http://prod-upp-image-read.ft.com/03b7cc7c-2581-11ea-9f81-051dbffa088d

118 Points (2 1sts, 3 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 2 6th, 7th, 2 9th, 12th)

rauldc14

04-21-21, 07:08 PM

1st Place

Barry Lyndon

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/v1555355998/shape/mentalfloss/lyndon_prim.jpg?itok=p6-Yqs8t

125 Points (3 1sts, 2 2nd, 4th, 3 5th, 3 6th, 13th)

rauldc14

04-21-21, 07:10 PM

Congrats to Siddon. Kubrick breaks into the General Hall for the second.time, tying Tarantino.

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 07:12 PM

Well my nom almost won!

Congrats to Barry Lyndon, nominated by Siddon. A fine addition to the MoFo Hall of Fame Museum!
Thanks to Raul for running this!
And thanks everyone who finished!

Now onto the 25th, which I hope to start on this Friday evening.

Wyldesyde19

04-21-21, 07:12 PM

Barry Lyndon is a worthy winner! It’s nice to have Kubrick represented.
Congrats Siddon.
This was a really fun HOF with a Diverse representation of genre and decades. Thanks to all who participated.

And of course, thanks Raul, for hosting

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 07:13 PM

My voting list:

1 The Whisperers
2 Barry Lyndon
3 Antwone Fisher
4 La Dolce Vita
5 Shame
6 The Day of the Jackal
7 Beasts of the Southern Wild
8 Rudderless
9 Hard Times
10 Aniara
11 Vampyr
12 The Man from Nowhere
13 The Secret in Their Eyes
14 In a Glass Cage

Siddon

04-21-21, 07:15 PM

Barry Lyndon
Shame
Vampyr
Aniara
The Man From Nowhere
Beasts of the Southern Wild
Antwoine Fisher
Hard Times
La Dolce Vita
In a Glass Cage
The Secret in Their Eyes
The Whisperers
Day of the Jackyll

Well I'm grateful that two other people had La Dolce Vita low...not to say it was a bad film but I was really not in the mood to watch a party film during lock down.

Third win for Kubrick (Paths of Glory, Doctor Strangelove, Barry Lyndon)

rauldc14

04-21-21, 07:17 PM

My list

1. Antwone Fisher
2. La Dolce Vita
3. Vampyr
4. Shame
5. The Man from Nowhere
6. Barry Lyndon
7. Day of the Jackal
8. Aniara
9. Secret in Their Eyes
10. Beasts of the Southern Wild
11. Hard Times
12. The Whisperers
13. In a Glass Cage

rauldc14

04-21-21, 07:19 PM

seanc

04-21-21, 07:40 PM

Kubrick wins Mofo

Good job everyone. Probably see you in the 25th

cricket

04-21-21, 07:41 PM

Congratulations Siddon and also to Citizen to a lesser extent;) Thank you very much Raul for hosting, I didn't know you had in you.

The Secret in Their Eyes
The Day of the Jackal
Shame
Antwone Fisher
Barry Lyndon
The Sea Inside
Hard Times
La Dolce Vita
The Man from Nowhere
Aniara
In a Glass Cage
The Whisperers
Rudderless
Vampyr
Beasts of the Southern Wild

pahaK

04-21-21, 08:00 PM

My full ballot (including Rudderless) with the ratings I put to Letterboxd. Ranking and rating La Dolce Vita gave me a lot of problems, and I ended up putting it in the middle of my initial range (2 to 4 stars). It's definitely a film I need to rewatch at some point. Barry Lyndon is my favorite Kubrick, so good winner in my books.

01: In a Glass Cage (1986) 4.5
02: The Day of the Jackal (1973) 4
03: The Man from Nowhere (2010) 4
04: Barry Lyndon (1975) 3.5
05: The Secret in Their Eyes (2009) 3.5
06: La Dolce Vita (1960) 3
07: Hard Times (1975) 3
08: The Whisperers (1967) 3
09: Vampyr (1932) 2.5
10: Aniara (2018) 2.5
11: Beasts of the Southern Wild (2012) 2.5
12: Shame (1968) 2.5
13: Rudderless (2014) 2
14: Antwone Fisher (2002) 1.5

Takoma11

04-21-21, 08:21 PM

The Day of the Jackal
The Man from Nowhere
Shame
Vampyr
Antwone Fisher
La Dolce Vita
The Sea Inside
In a Glass Cage
The Secret in Their Eyes
Aniara
Beasts of the Southern Wild
The Whisperers
Hard Times
Barry Lyndon
Rudderless

I think that the middle would get shuffled around quite a bit, but the top and bottom would mostly stay the same.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 08:53 PM

Here's what my final ballot was:

1. Vampyr
2. Barry Lyndon
3. La Dolce Vita
4. Hard Times
5. Shame
6. The Whisperers
7. The Day of the Jackal
8. The Secret in Their Eyes
9. The Man From Nowhere
10. Beasts of the Southern Wild
11. Antwone Fisher
12. Aniara
13. In a Glass Cage

I really enjoyed this Hall of Fame. It was a lot of fun watching and reviewing all the movies which were nominated for it, reading the reviews that other people wrote, and discussing the films with the people here. I'm definitely going to join the 25th HoF and I hope to see Thief, Takoma, Torgo, and some more of the Corrie/RT crowd there as well.

Anyways, congratulations to Siddon for winning this and thank you so much Raul for hosting this HoF!

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 09:10 PM

Torgo

04-21-21, 09:19 PM

It's been fun! Thanks to Raul for hosting.

Despite my new fatherly duties, I finished earlier than I expected, so I should hopefully be able to swing the next one.

Here's my list:

1. Barry Lyndon
2. La Dolce Vita
3. Vampyr
4. Day of the Jackal
5. Hard Times
6. Shame
7. The Secret in Their Eyes
8. The Man from Nowhere
9. The Whisperers
10. In a Glass Cage
11. Antwone Fisher
12. The Sea Inside
13. Aniara
14. Rudderless
15. Beasts of the Southern Wild

rauldc14

04-21-21, 09:21 PM

I'm really excited that it seems we have a new eager HOF core. I already know my pick for the next one and am very curious what people will think.

cricket

04-21-21, 09:23 PM

That's kind of a weird thing to say.

He's right. It's much better when you can hit the town and imitate the lead.

Torgo

04-21-21, 09:33 PM

He's right. It's much better when you can hit the town and imitate the lead.Bingo. Should have gone out late at night while everyone's asleep like Marcello did so you can swim in the fountain.

Thief

04-21-21, 09:36 PM

Here's my full final ballot...

Aniara
The Whisperers
The Secret In Their Eyes
The Man from Nowhere
The Day of the Jackal
Barry Lyndon
Antwone Fisher
Shame
La Dolce Vita
Vampyr
Hard Times
Beasts of the Southern Wild
In a Glass Cage

Once again, thanks to everyone, especially Raul for running this, and congrats to Siddon for picking a worthy winner.

Siddon

04-21-21, 09:41 PM

That's kind of a weird thing to say.

Well if you are on a diet and someone nominates Willy Wonka that's going to affect your enjoyment of a film. It took me three days to get through it and I normally binge films so that's something that is always a sign to me. It's a good film, I liked scenes in the film but I need multiple sittings.

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 09:51 PM

Well if you are on a diet and someone nominates Willy Wonka that's going to affect your enjoyment of a film. It took me three days to get through it and I normally binge films so that's something that is always a sign to me. It's a good film, I liked scenes in the film but I need multiple sittings.If I've not had dinner yet and I watch an HoF nom, it goes to the bottom of my list because I'm hungry:rolleyes:

not really!

cricket

04-21-21, 10:18 PM

Considering what happened to many Argentinians who went up against the government, the fact that both Esposito and his love interest survived physically intact and were able to be together in the end is a relatively happy ending. I agree that the film makes it clear that they will carry a lot of baggage (both on their own and as a couple) even if their relationship is mostly positive.

Thank God for small favors.

Have you seen La Historia Oficial? (Another Argentinian Best Foreign Film winner that deals with this era of Argentinia history).No but I'll fix that. It sounds awesome.

I believe that. But I also really doubt that many Academy members did a lot of research to pick up on any of those deeper layers of meaning.Perhaps not. Perhaps some are from Argentina. Perhaps some read the book. Perhaps just knowing it's there earned the film some extra credit. Perhaps, like myself, they loved it with out knowing anything about it. It's probably a variety pack.

By "accessible" I mean a film that can be mostly followed (on both a plot and emotional/character arc) level without doing too much heavy lifting.I think the emotional aspect of the movie is much more complex than either you want to admit or realize. I'm not saying you need to be a genius, but you do need to think and it's easy to miss a lot of things.

The "bare bones" of The Secret in Their Eyes are those of a typical murder mystery/political thriller.That's true; one of the things I've said before this conversation is that the plot is unimportant, a means to an end. You are looking at the movie at the most superficial level possible. You could do that with any movie. A person watching this movie like that doesn't get the movie, and in turn won't have as high of an opinion of it.

The main character is a detective trying to do the right thing.Why? Sure, it's his job, but he's also traumatized by it-very different from other "thrillers". Furthermore, he becomes fueled by the husband's deep and unending love for the deceased, something he's never had but yearns for, yet lacks the courage to pursue.

The villains are very obvious.Yes, but it's not about the villains and there's no effort put forth to not make them obvious. It's supposed to be that way.

The theme of regret is explicitly voiced by the main character several times.I don't specifically remember this, but just because the viewer knows it's there, that doesn't mean the viewer understands or feels it.

Toward the end (and while I liked the film, I thought this part was SO heavy handed), he takes a index card that reads "Temo" (I fear) and adds an "a" so that it reads "Te Amo" (I love you). Fear becomes love.He adds an A, not an a, an important distinction. Yes, fear becomes love, and he's motivated by what Morales did, even though it horrified him. Part of the reason it horrified him is what Morales had done to himself and he doesn't want to end up like that. He finds the courage he didn't have before, the courage to do anything in the name of true love, like Morales had done. The A that was missing from his typewriter while writing his novel represented what was missing in his life. He adds the A to the paper just like he had been adding it to his book.

He then rushes to her office where, breathing heavily, he declares his love.Well, I hope that's not how he voices regret because he doesn't mention love. He says he needs to talk to her just like he's done in the past. This time she senses it's different.

To the sound of happy, hopeful musicThe exact same music that was sad during the train scene at the beginning. Interestingly enough, the film is also about how we process memory.

she smiles broadly in a bright room next to bright flowers and tells him to come in.Red to be exact, not the first time in the movie red was intentionally used. And he was already in, she just told him to close the door.

The final shot is literally a door closing. You could watch this film and pay almost zero attention to the entire political element and still come away feeling like you "got it".I'm sure people have felt that way and were wrong. Those are probably not the people who love it.

By contrast, I think that something like Mother is a bit more daring and complicated in its ending. I think that it leaves you not knowing quite how to feel. I think that it is also a relatively accessible film, but I think that the character arc is a bit more complex and the resolution is not as "neat".I'd have to watch it again, but my guess is that it could also be stripped down to its bare bones.

My opinion is just "I'm not surprised that more people like The Secret in Their Eyes even though I like other films better."I could say that about any movie besides my favorite. I often recommend movies to people that I don't even like myself.

I was thrilled with Moonlight's win (not the least because I have a friend who frequently collaborates with the writer, who I think is amazing), but Crash over Brokeback Mountain to me displays that often a kind of comfortable competency hits the right notes with a large enough chunk of voters to pull out a win.I liked all 3 movies but didn't think any were best picture material. My opinion of course.

I'm not saying people are voting for the film they think will be more popular. I'm saying they genuinely liked it! But I do question just a little (as I do with the other categories), the degree to which genre and surface-level story play a role.Yes of course they liked it. A big point to my argument is that I don't think they'd like it enough to vote for it had they only seen it at surface level.

The Headless Woman is excellent and disturbing and darkly funny. It has layered critique of class and race politics in South America and it doesn't spoon-feed you anything. I would highly recommend it.

I like the synopsis and I certainly love disturbing and dark humor

I'll keep an eye out for Castle of Purity, though it doesn't seem to be streaming on any of my services currently.I can send you a link if you watch movies that way.

Takoma11

04-21-21, 10:50 PM

I think the emotional aspect of the movie is much more complex than either you want to admit or realize. I'm not saying you need to be a genius, but you do need to think and it's easy to miss a lot of things.

I mean, I did think while I was watching it? I actually paid very close attention to all of the films. And this is a historical context I find interesting and am familiar with. Nothing you've said about the emotions are things I missed, I just find them less impactful than you (and others) do.

That's true; one of the things I've said before this conversation is that the plot is unimportant, a means to an end. You are looking at the movie at the most superficial level possible. You could do that with any movie. A person watching this movie like that doesn't get the movie, and in turn won't have as high of an opinion of it.

But plot is not unimportant, especially if the events in that plot are meant to take us on the allegorical journey. If you're thinking my opinion of the film is lower because I only watched it on a literal level, you are mistaken. I feel that I had a good grasp on the film's themes and broadly how it was connected to the real history of Argentinian politics.

Why? Sure, it's his job, but he's also traumatized by it-very different from other "thrillers". Furthermore, he becomes fueled by the husband's deep and unending love for the deceased, something he's never had but yearns for, yet lacks the courage to pursue.

I just don't find his character as original as you do, I guess. I feel like detectives who are haunted by "that one case" are actually dime a dozen in the mystery films/TV/books I consume.

I don't specifically remember this, but just because the viewer knows it's there, that doesn't mean the viewer understands or feels it.

I find it pretty explicit, as with this dialogue:

-Benjamin, that part when...the guy goes to Jujuy the guy's crying is despair and she's running along the platform as if she's losing the love of her life touching their hands through the glass as if they were a single person she's crying, as if she knew she would be fated to suffer a fake love almost falling on the track, because she never dared to show her love
-Yes..it was like that, no?

I'm not saying that this theme isn't developed in more subtle ways in the rest of the film. All of what I was listing was an example of how the film could still provide a satisfying and complete narrative for someone who was only paying superficial attention.

He adds an A, not an a, an important distinction. Yes, fear becomes love, and he's motivated by what Morales did, even though it horrified him. Part of the reason it horrified him is what Morales had done to himself and he doesn't want to end up like that. He finds the courage he didn't have before, the courage to do anything in the name of true love, like Morales had done. The A that was missing from his typewriter while writing his novel represented what was missing in his life. He adds the A to the paper just like he had been adding it to his book.

And that's fine. But it's not, in my opinion, subtle.

Well, I hope that's not how he voices regret because he doesn't mention love. He says he needs to talk to her just like he's done in the past. This time she senses it's different.

He rushes in all bright eyed saying he needs to talk to her. Yes, she senses what he's saying, because she answers "It will be complicated" and he replied "I don't care."

Red to be exact, not the first time in the movie red was intentionally used. And he was already in, she just told him to close the door.

I might not have had the wording correct (or the color of the flowers), but it doesn't change my basic assertion about the kind of emotional momentum that the ending has.

I'd have to watch it again, but my guess is that it could also be stripped down to its bare bones.

Any movie can. I'm saying that by contrast I found the ending of Mother more emotionally complex as a viewer.

I could say that about any movie besides my favorite. I often recommend movies to people that I don't even like myself.

Then I'm not sure why me not liking it more than other films is taken as a sign that I didn't pay enough attention or think hard enough or appreciate it for all of its layers.

Yes of course they liked it. A big point to my argument is that I don't think they'd like it enough to vote for it had they only seen it at surface level.

This is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. Because part of what I'm arguing is that the film is satisfying even if regarded superficially (and more satisfying than many other films would be if similarly regarded).

I like the synopsis and I certainly love disturbing and dark humor

I was really pleasantly surprised by it. And unfortunately, the thing that I think is most brilliant about it is something that develops through the course of the film and would be too spoiler-ish to discuss with someone who hasn't seen it. If you ever do get around to it, I'd love to discuss!

I can send you a link if you watch movies that way.

I don't--but thank you for the offer!

SpelingError

04-21-21, 11:14 PM

How do we decide who hosts each HoF?

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 11:17 PM

How do we decide who hosts each HoF?Someone just says they want to do it.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 11:18 PM

Someone just says they want to do it.

I know I'm new, but could I do it, perhaps?

Siddon

04-21-21, 11:23 PM

I know I'm new, but could I do it, perhaps?

I would do a specialty one first to see if you like it. If their is a specific type of film or style you want to dive into that might get you more engaged than immediately trying to do the 25th.

edarsenal

04-21-21, 11:24 PM

CONGRATS Siddon!!! Seeing Lyndon was a great surprise
THANKS EVERYONE for a great list of movies and reviews!
and, of course, THANK YOU rauldc14 for Hosting!!

1) La Dolce Vita (#2)
2) The Day of the Jackal (#4)
3) Beasts of the Southern Wild (#11)
4) The Whisperers (#9)
5) Vampyr (#5)
6) Barry Lyndon (#1)
7) The Man from Nowhere (#7)
8) Hard Times (#10)
9) The Secret in Their Eyes (#6)
10) Antwone Fisher (#8)
11) Shame (#3)
12) In a Glass Cage (#13)
13) Aniara (#12)

SpelingError

04-21-21, 11:25 PM

I would do a specialty one first to see if you like it. If their is a specific type of film or style you want to dive into that might get you more engaged than immediately trying to do the 25th.

Okay, that's fair. Do I bring up my idea in Movie HALL OF FAME Archives & info?

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 11:26 PM

I know I'm new, but could I do it, perhaps?Sure, you could host an HoF... I'm doing the next one the 25th. I've been talking about it for a long time I was just working on some art work for it, but if you want to do the 26th, cool! Or you can always host a specialty HoF...those are popular.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 11:27 PM

I think I'll start with a specialty HoF first.

Citizen Rules

04-21-21, 11:28 PM

Okay, that's fair. Do I bring up my idea in Movie HALL OF FAME Archives & info?We tried the group decision thing and it caused more problems than it's worth. So it's always up to the individual.

If you want to do a specialty HoF, just mention it here and mention it on the Archives thread and see if people are interested. I bet you'd be a good host! Depending on what the genre/topic is I might join.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 11:33 PM

cricket

04-21-21, 11:53 PM

I mean, I did think while I was watching it? I actually paid very close attention to all of the films. And this is a historical context I find interesting and am familiar with. Nothing you've said about the emotions are things I missed, I just find them less impactful than you (and others) do.

And I'm not talking about you. I know by your reviews what a good viewer you are. I'm just talking about how some viewers may have seen it.

But plot is not unimportant, especially if the events in that plot are meant to take us on the allegorical journey.

In that way sure it's important for those who understand that aspect. I don't mean the plot could be something else completely either.

If you're thinking my opinion of the film is lower because I only watched it on a literal level, you are mistaken. I feel that I had a good grasp on the film's themes and broadly how it was connected to the real history of Argentinian politics.

Again, I'm not saying you watched it that way, but you are criticizing it in that way. I'm talking about if someone else watched it at the level you are criticizing it. You've talked about how accessible it is at it's bare bones level, and I'm saying if someone watches it at it's bare bones level, they probably won't get everything out of it, and therefore probably won't think it's a great movie.

I just don't find his character as original as you do, I guess. I feel like detectives who are haunted by "that one case" are actually dime a dozen in the mystery films/TV/books I consume.

I think his emotions as a detective in a thriller are not the norm.

I'm not saying that this theme isn't developed in more subtle ways in the rest of the film. All of what I was listing was an example of how the film could still provide a satisfying and complete narrative for someone who was only paying superficial attention.

I don't believe that someone only paying superficial attention can get all that it has to offer.

And that's fine. But it's not, in my opinion, subtle.

So you think a quick moment in the film is not subtle. I'd assume that's a criticism or else you probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Do you prefer thrillers that are subtle the whole way through?

He rushes in all bright eyed saying he needs to talk to her. Yes, she senses what he's saying, because she answers "It will be complicated" and he replied "I don't care."

Right. Is this another criticism?

I might not have had the wording correct (or the color of the flowers), but it doesn't change my basic assertion about the kind of emotional momentum that the ending has.

Don't forget the happy music.

They are taking a positive step towards finding the happiness that has eluded them for 25 years. Sandoval is still dead. Meanwhile the victim of the film is stuck in a life of misery and loneliness. I'm fascinated that some people look at this as a storybook ending. Then again, I should know that emotions can be complex.

Any movie can. I'm saying that by contrast I found the ending of Mother more emotionally complex as a viewer.

I wish I could remember better.

Then I'm not sure why me not liking it more than other films is taken as a sign that I didn't pay enough attention or think hard enough or appreciate it for all of its layers.

Not saying that at all. You could understand everything about it, hate it, and I wouldn't take issue. I'm saying in order to think it's a great movie, a person needs to get it all, or at least a lot of it. If a person doesn't get everything it has to offer, they most likely won't love it.

This is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. Because part of what I'm arguing is that the film is satisfying even if regarded superficially (and more satisfying than many other films would be if similarly regarded).

Same as above. Satisfying sure, but I wouldn't love the movie if I saw it that way. I find this funny in a way. You're telling me you like it but like other movies better. I'm telling you I need to get everything out of it in order to love it. I don't even understand what this part of the debate is over. I feel like you're telling me it's better than I think it is if only looked at on it's most basic level.

I was really pleasantly surprised by it. And unfortunately, the thing that I think is most brilliant about it is something that develops through the course of the film and would be too spoiler-ish to discuss with someone who hasn't seen it. If you ever do get around to it, I'd love to discuss!

I put it on my watchlist. Maybe you'll nominate it for a HoF?

cricket

04-21-21, 11:58 PM

A HoF I've been thinking of doing for a while is a Russian film HoF since Russia is my favorite country for watching foreign films. Would anyone be interested in that? I'll post this in the Archives thread as well.

I usually don't participate in specialty HoFs, but I thought I'd mention a movie you might enjoy if you like crime movies-Brother (1997). I thought it was pretty good. Also The Green Elephant if you like something horribly depraved.

SpelingError

04-21-21, 11:59 PM

I usually don't participate in specialty HoFs, but I thought I'd mention a movie you might enjoy if you like crime movies-Brother (1997). I thought it was pretty good. Also The Green Elephant if you like something horribly depraved.

I've been meaning to check out Brother for some time. I haven't heard of The Green Elephant, but I'll keep an eye out for it.

Takoma11

04-22-21, 12:26 AM

Again, I'm not saying you watched it that way, but you are criticizing it in that way. I'm talking about if someone else watched it at the level you are criticizing it. You've talked about how accessible it is at it's bare bones level, and I'm saying if someone watches it at it's bare bones level, they probably won't get everything out of it, and therefore probably won't think it's a great movie.

You keep coming back to my descriptions of the film as criticism. My (neutral!) observation that the basic structure/story of the film is, at a superficial level, more accessible than other films is not a criticism. Like, I love Brain Damage and think it has lots of layers and interesting themes, but also it can be watched at a superficial, literal level and it still works.

I can't prove or disprove that someone who is mostly watching the film for the mystery plot and the broader emotional themes would think it was great. I could see someone watching the film and being tuned into the mystery and tuned into the unrequited love story and still really liking it.

I think his emotions as a detective in a thriller are not the norm.

I think that the degree to which the case impacts his personal life is a bit out of the norm. But I think that the detective who is fixated/haunted by an unsolved or a poorly-resolved case is a fairly common trope.

I don't believe that someone only paying superficial attention can get all that it has to offer.

Agreed. But what I do think is true is that someone paying superficial attention could come away with a positive and satisfying viewing experience.

So you think a quick moment in the film is not subtle. I'd assume that's a criticism or else you probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Do you prefer thrillers that are subtle the whole way through?

You were responding to my assertion that the ending (taken as a whole) is not subtle. And I really don't think it is. From the moment that he turns "I fear" into "I love", I think that the ending lacks nuance. And I'll say again that this isn't a criticism. (Okay, I find the whole "I fear"/"I love you" think kind of hokey, but the rest is fine). It's just part of my larger observation that someone watching superficially would still understand the conclusion to the film's big arcs.

Right. Is this another criticism?

Nope.

They are taking a positive step towards finding the happiness that has eluded them for 25 years. Sandoval is still dead. Meanwhile the victim of the film is stuck in a life of misery and loneliness. I'm fascinated that some people look at this as a storybook ending. Then again, I should know that emotions can be complex.

I never said it was storybook. It's obviously an ending with bittersweet, complicated elements. But I do think that it is an optimistic ending and that the implication is that these two characters are going to pursue the happiness that they once gave up. And frankly, watching the scene three times now, I feel as if the actors themselves are mainly emoting happiness.

I wish I could remember better.

I vividly remember the final minute of Mother and the range of emotions I felt. And that's a film I watched on release over 10 years ago. Which is not to say others will feel that same impact, but it does serve as a contrast for me personally.

Not saying that at all. You could understand everything about it, hate it, and I wouldn't take issue. I'm saying in order to think it's a great movie, a person needs to get it all, or at least a lot of it. If a person doesn't get everything it has to offer, they most likely won't love it.

But what else is there to "get"? Or maybe when you say "get" you mean like being on the same frequency with the film? I honestly don't think that I missed anything in the movie, just that what there was didn't have the same impact. Saying I didn't "get it" makes it sound like an issue of understanding or interpretation. I think it's more just a case of incompatibility.

Same as above. Satisfying sure, but I wouldn't love the movie if I saw it that way. I find this funny in a way. You're telling me you like it but like other movies better. I'm telling you I need to get everything out of it in order to love it. I don't even understand what this part of the debate is over. I feel like you're telling me it's better than I think it is if only looked at on it's most basic level.

You say that you need to get everything out of it in order to love it; I'm saying people can love films without engaging with that complexity. And to go a step further, I'm suggesting that the superficial level of this film-ie just the mystery and romance part--would feel complete to some viewers. I'm not trying to take away from the film's depth or the fact that you liked it because you engaged with it on that level.

I put it on my watchlist. Maybe you'll nominate it for a HoF?

Maybe. It's one of those films where reading bad takes ("I just didn't like the main character" OH REALLY?!?!?!) makes me legit kind of mad, LOL.

Wyldesyde19

04-22-21, 01:06 AM

cricket

04-22-21, 09:37 AM

But what else is there to "get"? Or maybe when you say "get" you mean like being on the same frequency with the film? I honestly don't think that I missed anything in the movie, just that what there was didn't have the same impact. Saying I didn't "get it" makes it sound like an issue of understanding or interpretation. I think it's more just a case of incompatibility.

I'm skipping a lot because we're going in circles and I've felt that you haven't been understanding me, which could very well be the way I'm explaining it. I'll stick to the above as that shows you're on the right track to getting what I mean. I've never thought that there was something in the movie that you didn't understand.

The entire point of our debate is over your belief that the Academy voters gave it the Oscar because it's more accessible and easy to like.

You believe the plot and emotions are easily accessible. I agree with you about the plot, but feel the plot it unimportant because in order to love the movie, it has to hit you on that emotional level. The plot is nothing I haven't seen before, the ending is nothing I haven't seen before, and nothing surprised me. It doesn't matter. I've read many reviews of the movie, and for those who love it, it's the emotion that they cite as the main reason why.

I disagree with the idea that it's accessible on an emotional level because emotions are complex by their very nature, and everybody processes emotion differently. Emotion is related to perception, and it's that perception that is very important here.

I'll skip right to the ending which you have described as relatively and generally happy, easy to take, people pleasing, and lacking nuance. There's one thing you've said that really stands out to me, and that's that you thought the music at the end was happy and hopeful. This speaks volumes to me because it's the exact same music that's played at the beginning of the film during the sad train scene. This has everything to do with your perception. That doesn't make you wrong. It's how you feel and you can't be wrong about how you feel. I will carefully describe how I felt about the ending and I want you to focus on one sentence-you can't suffer real loss without having something that's real. The conclusion of the film includes the main character who needs justice, Morales, holding his head in his hands as he suffers through a living hell. Esposito is traumatized by this. Not a happy ending for who you could call the character who is the main victim of the film, as far as it's presented. On to the other main characters, Ben and Irene. After 25 years, they reconnect showing that their love is real. It is because of this that I feel the pain of those 25 lost years. That pain doesn't come if they do not take that positive step for love. For me, this was emotionally devastating. It's fine that you feel the way you do, but you can't say how I feel doesn't make sense and you should understand my view as well. What this means is that you didn't get the film the way I did. There is a certain amount of available potential with each film we watch. With this particular film, that potential was much more highly realized for me than it was for you, and that's obviously why I feel more strongly about it. It has nothing to do with your ability to follow it or understand it. It has everything to do with our sensibilities as a viewer.

This is why I don't agree with accessibility on an emotional level. Yes we all know what love, loss, regret, trauma, etc., are, but we all understand them and process them on different levels, and even that varies with different circumstances. How can it be accessible on an emotional level if viewers feel differently? I agree with your idea that it can be an easier movie to like than some others, but it gets more complicated when it comes to loving the movie. We were specifically talking about the people who voted to give it an award. If they saw it at the superficial level that you have described, then I believe they would have felt more like you did. Since they voted for it, they probably were affected by it more like I was. Just as an aside, this was a very unknown movie when it won and it was considered a big surprise, so popularity played no part in it winning, just the opposite in fact.

neiba

04-22-21, 10:39 AM

A HoF I've been thinking of doing for a while is a Russian film HoF since Russia is my favorite country for watching foreign films. Would anyone be interested in that? I'll post this in the Archives thread as well.

Last Russian HoF was fun, and it will probably be a small one so that could be a good place to start.

I won't join though, because I need some time off, but if you need any help, just DM me.

neiba

04-22-21, 10:40 AM

1. Barry Lyndon
2. Shame
3. Beasts of the Southern Wild
4. El Secreto de sus ojos
5. The Day of the Jackal
6. Antwone Fisher
7. The Whisperers
8. Hard Times
9. Aniara
10. Vampyr
11. The Man from Nowhere
12. La Dolce Vita
13. In a Glass Cage

SpelingError

04-22-21, 11:35 AM

Last Russian HoF was fun, and it will probably be a small one so that could be a good place to start.

I won't join though, because I need some time off, but if you need any help, just DM me.
Thanks, if necessary, I will.

Citizen Rules

04-22-21, 01:04 PM

The Movie Hall of Fame Archives has been updated and Barry Lyndon has been added to the honored halls!

Takoma11

04-22-21, 06:32 PM

I'm skipping a lot because we're going in circles and I've felt that you haven't been understanding me, which could very well be the way I'm explaining it. I'll stick to the above as that shows you're on the right track to getting what I mean. I've never thought that there was something in the movie that you didn't understand.

Got it. Because in my experience when someone says that I didn't "get" a film, they meant that I was lacking in understanding of what happened in the film or what it was trying to accomplish or missed important symbolism or whatever.

The entire point of our debate is over your belief that the Academy voters gave it the Oscar because it's more accessible and easy to like.

I do want to clarify this point, because it's not what I'm saying.

To put it mathematically: suppose 100 Academy members watch the nominated films. 90 of them watch attentively and think deeply about what they are seeing. The other 10 watch more superficially, are distracted, whatever. I'm saying that I'm totally fine conceding that many of the attentive viewers thought the film was the best. But I'm also saying that because of the film's structure and other elements, those 10 inattentive viewers would probably have a more positive response to this film than to something like Dogtooth.

I'm saying it's a film which can be appreciated in depth or superficially. And to my mind, this is not a criticism. It's just something that would give it a slight edge when it comes to something like a vote.

I disagree with the idea that it's accessible on an emotional level because emotions are complex by their very nature, and everybody processes emotion differently. Emotion is related to perception, and it's that perception that is very important here.

But emotions also have layers. Much like what I wrote above, I think that the film has emotional impact whether you regard it deeply (as you clearly do), or whether you regard it superficially. I agree that a casual viewer would not get the full impact of the emotions, but I think that a superficial viewer would still feel the impact of the "broad strokes" of the emotion. I think that you could watch that final scene without subtitles and still get the emotional vibe.

I'll skip right to the ending which you have described as relatively and generally happy, easy to take, people pleasing, and lacking nuance.

I think that there are elements of the end which are generally happy and easy to take and lacking nuance. Because you have to remember that I'm talking about what someone would be able to glean if they weren't watching the film deeply and how the film might still be able to make them feel.

For me, this was emotionally devastating. It's fine that you feel the way you do, but you can't say how I feel doesn't make sense and you should understand my view as well.

I don't doubt that you felt this way about the film. And while I wouldn't describe my reaction as being emotionally devastated--in part because so many people lost their loved ones permanently--it certainly evoked a range of emotions in me. I think that how you've explained your reaction and how you read the ending as being more tragic than me makes sense.

If they saw it at the superficial level that you have described, then I believe they would have felt more like you did. Since they voted for it, they probably were affected by it more like I was. Just as an aside, this was a very unknown movie when it won and it was considered a big surprise, so popularity played no part in it winning, just the opposite in fact.

I think that if someone was only watching a film with partial attention (something I do, um, often SORRY SORRY EVERYONE!!), this is the one that would still leave a strong impression, based on my own experiences. It just has the right mix of plot elements, visual storytelling, engaging set-pieces, and emotional music.

cricket

04-22-21, 06:47 PM

Got it. Because in my experience when someone says that I didn't "get" a film, they meant that I was lacking in understanding of what happened in the film or what it was trying to accomplish or missed important symbolism or whatever.

I do want to clarify this point, because it's not what I'm saying.

To put it mathematically: suppose 100 Academy members watch the nominated films. 90 of them watch attentively and think deeply about what they are seeing. The other 10 watch more superficially, are distracted, whatever. I'm saying that I'm totally fine conceding that many of the attentive viewers thought the film was the best. But I'm also saying that because of the film's structure and other elements, those 10 inattentive viewers would probably have a more positive response to this film than to something like Dogtooth.

I'm saying it's a film which can be appreciated in depth or superficially. And to my mind, this is not a criticism. It's just something that would give it a slight edge when it comes to something like a vote.

But emotions also have layers. Much like what I wrote above, I think that the film has emotional impact whether you regard it deeply (as you clearly do), or whether you regard it superficially. I agree that a casual viewer would not get the full impact of the emotions, but I think that a superficial viewer would still feel the impact of the "broad strokes" of the emotion. I think that you could watch that final scene without subtitles and still get the emotional vibe.

I think that there are elements of the end which are generally happy and easy to take and lacking nuance. Because you have to remember that I'm talking about what someone would be able to glean if they weren't watching the film deeply and how the film might still be able to make them feel.

I don't doubt that you felt this way about the film. And while I wouldn't describe my reaction as being emotionally devastated--in part because so many people lost their loved ones permanently--it certainly evoked a range of emotions in me. I think that how you've explained your reaction and how you read the ending as being more tragic than me makes sense.

I think that if someone was only watching a film with partial attention (something I do, um, often SORRY SORRY EVERYONE!!), this is the one that would still leave a strong impression, based on my own experiences. It just has the right mix of plot elements, visual storytelling, engaging set-pieces, and emotional music.

I think this is all reasonable. You know I don't discount that you are right about what we were debating anyway but for some reason I wanted to give a counter argument. I think both sides are plausible.

I had to tell you this because it freaked me out today. I was working and texted my wife that I was stopping at Subway and had a 2 for 1 sub coupon. She wanted chips to go with it and I was rushing her to make up her mind on what kind because people were behind me. Then this happened-

76725

It was so weird for me because she knows nothing of the movie.