View Full Version : Matrix Reloaded Review
I just got home from seeing the 10:10 showing of The Matrix Reloaded, and WOW.
I went in not expecting to much, i was worried that the movie would be hyped to much and i would be disappointed. I was very pleased with the movie as a whole. The story was very in depth and had a few great twists.
The fight scenes were amazing, what you see in the previews is just the icing on the cake. There were also severl momenst to provide some comic relief, one of the moments that stands out in ym mind at the momet was during the fight scene that you see in the previews. When Neo is fighting a **** load of Mr. Smiths, during the fight when Neo hits Mr. Smith in the face with the pipe, there was a theatre wide reaction first of "ooo (ouch)", then laughter when you realize its the bad guy.
My thoughts are fleeing me as i get tired, perhaps ill dream about it tonight and write another review in the morning.
ALl in all a great movie in my humble opinion. Great cliffhanger ending, great effects, great story....
night
Thanks, I read people saying that it was horrible etc. but i guess they went in looking just for action and crap like that. I hope they have a good story..only 4 more hours til i see it :)
I went to the 10:00 PM sneak and all I can I say is one word...."Whoa!" It was simply amazing. Putting aside the awesome effects as seen in the trailers, there are other fight scenes that are sweet.
The story is well put as nimo has explained and the cliffhanger is great.
I don't think I need to say much for that explains it all. (Basically Nimo said it all first ;) )
**Don't forget to stay after the credits for a real treat!!! **
Fallen Hero
05-15-03, 09:51 AM
Alright, it looks to me like I get the first privilage to be able to write the first negative feedback on this movie "The Matrix : Reloaded".
First off, I do believe if you are an honest die hard, matrix fan, and you became obsessed over it after the first film, you will not like its predecessor "Reloaded".
First off a new fundemental that the film "Reloaded" wanted to fringe upon, was the fact that Neo is in love with Trinity, and they wanted to make that as blatently clear in this film as they possibly could. I do not mean to ruin any of the film for those of you who have yet to see it, but I just want to try and explain some of the reasons I did not appreciate this film as much as the first Matrix.
In the beginning of the movie, after the ebakanezzer (ship morh, and neo are on) land in Zion, a GIANT party erupts from the 250,000 humans inhabiting the great underground city. People begin to dance, and in the foreground, neo and trinity decide to use this time to go off to their room and have sex....again.
While neo is off doing his thing, they show around a 15-20 minute scene that made me feel like I was watching a grind video from MTV. Great.... hot chicks grinding on eachother, wet t-shirts, partial nudity, all greats things to include into a movie. But for a movie like the Matrix, it all just did not make sense to me, and I feel it would of been better to just cut that scene into 1/3 of what it was. There is just no point to show a clip that long, and that pointless.
Another reason I did not like this movie "Reloaded", is because when the first Matrix film was released and I watched it, I just sat in my seat and was like, "holy s.hit, that was awsome". They made it perfect, an absolute perfect blend of CGI, Live Action fight scenes, plot, acting, and a good story line. But with "Reloaded" you can easily tell that 90% of everything done in this movie, was done with a green screen and CGI. By the end of the movie, you are not sure if when Neo is walking down a hallway, if the wall to his right is CGI or real. The acting was still great in "Reloaded", but one thing I absolutely DESPISED, was the stupid technical speeches given by almost everyone in the movie, and then later sumarized into simple text by Neo later on in the movie. I asked several people after the film on what they thought abou the movie they had just seen. Three fourths of the people sumarized it like this, "I dont get it....."
I could go on...and on....and on. But after all this is my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just felt that there were alot of things that could of been done, but weren't, and far too many things that were not necessary in this film.
I apologize for the length, and I will try in a later date, to make my reviews shorter.
Seems to me this will be a very mixed review movie..
I can't wait for Revolutions, I feel it will be the best and i wonder how they are going to wrap it up, I'm thinking Reloaded is for the action and Revolutions will be for the sights and story...only 2 more hours til reloaded :)
First off, I do believe if you are an honest die hard, matrix fan, and you became obsessed over it after the first film, you will not like its predecessor "Reloaded".
I think that is a horrible blanket statement. I love the Matrix. The movie rejuvenated my love for movies. I have read everything I could get my hands on. I have watched the movie itself no less than a hundred times. (maybe that's not a lot compared to some.) I have many many times gotten in to deep philosophical, theological and applied physics discussion on the themes and plausability of the matrix. I would consider myself someone that truly loves what this film has done for the industry as a whole and me as a avid film lover. To say that if I like "Reloaded" (which I do) makes me a dishonest, live soft, matrix hater, who thinks it's an ok movie (which is what I would be.) is wrong.
I think reloaded is a wonderful sequel that serves it's purpose. It does exactly what I wanted it to do. I think Reloaded is better than The Empire strikes back and Godfather 2 put together. Like it or not.. that's my opinion.
WHy do some people dislike Reloaded? I think's because they can't follow it. These are the same people that didn't understand the matrix until after seeing 3 times.. and then they only understood the outline.
I asked several people after the film on what they thought abou the movie they had just seen. Three fourths of the people sumarized it like this, "I dont get it....."
Uhhh... that's what everyone was saying after the first one.
I personally see how someone that is a true matrix fan could possibly not like this Reloaded. All it does is build where The Matrix left off.
You and I do agree on one thing. The sex. But I think I disagree for a different reason. I don't think there should of been a love story in the first one.
What people that should be talking about right now.. is the details of the movie. Whether the Arch is just a program put in as a fail safe. Whether or not neo is just another one.. and he must be the ultimate one. If the reason Neo has power's in the real world is because of the piece of smith that got merged in to him when Neo "destroyed" him. And why does Smith want out of the matrix if he is a machine?...
there's a ton of things that we could be talking about.. that would really bring home how much this movie follows the path of the first matrix. IT will take a long time to dissect this movie as we have the matrix.. which is what makes the matrix what it is... it's depth that is not easily discerned from the outset.
-TAO
Fallen Hero
05-15-03, 12:33 PM
I agree with you on that too Tao. We should discuss what the ending could mean for our little friend Neo. Or you could just take the easy way out, and ask me. Because of my job I am able to obtain scripts before the movies come out, and I am able to explain to the point "WHAT" Neo actually is, and what is to come about our little friends. But if you do not want me to go ahead and post this information on what all NEO is, then I will not if asked.
The Silver Bullet
05-15-03, 08:50 PM
I just hope that the so-called "photo realstic" actors don't look as pathetically CGI as they do in the trailers...
I saw it. I loved it, especially the Agent Smith Neo fight, i felt that had been the best fight ive seen in the matrix so far, the action of this movie was great and surpassed the first one, but in other catagories it didn't do as well. I felt it wasn't as smooth as the first one and the plot didn't do anything for me until the end when those things are revealed. Nevetheless I enjoyed watching this movie as much as the first (and the first was my favorite movie) and given the options they had for a sequel i felt this was a great path. I also liked monica bellucci's character quite a bit. I think they went overboard on the sex thing and i never really pictured people in Zion grinding to techno music and i'd take that scene away if i were given a choice, i felt it was just random and didn't fit into the "Matrix Feel" at all.
Holden Pike
05-15-03, 09:29 PM
Nope, SB, they look EXACTLY that pathetically cartoony CGI. They should just count 70% of the effects shots in Reloaded as more of the Ani-Matrix.
More of the same, and then some. Indeed. But, if you thought The Matrix was way cool and the effects kicked ass and the story was so deep and trippy and thought-provoking, you'll see lots more of it. If, like me, you thought the original flick was nothing but a dumb action movie in raggedy philosopher's robes with no sense of its own internal logic and lousy sci-fi, BOY is there more of that and spades in the second entry (with no envelope for the third).
There's a reason Superman has Kryptonite, you know? Absolute power is totally dull. Neo can do anything (now in and out of the matrix of course), nobody important can die in either reality, so why should I give a flip about any of it? I am waaaay past the age of being dazzled by effects shots if there's no decent story to hang them on.
Reloaded is even sillier than the first. I won't be seeing the third until video, if at all. Whatever the final punchline is, I really have no interest in finding out. At all.
But, hey, the kids love it.
*QUADRUPLE YAWN*
There's a reason Superman has Kryptonite, you know?
Oh so agreeable.
Why didn't he just turn his ultimate bag of holding inside out and walk out of the matrix? It would of fit in with the rest of the plot' "My name is Neo, I'll do whatever I want whenever I want without any rhyme or reason to the consistency of my actions."
Thats the attitude I got.
Puh-lease. He can't do anything. But he can do alot, and frankly, I say "bravo!" to the writers for finding a way to still present his character with challenges despite his immense power. I, like many, wondered upon hearing of the planned sequel how they could possibly present any difficulties before the rebels...but they most definitely have.
As for the CGI: 70% is a completely ridiculous overshoot. I'd say there were a half dozen the entire movie...and in a flick boasting several hundred, that's not much of a black mark.
Zion was horribly stupid in most ways, sorry to say, but the action was swift and sleek and entertaining as hell. What's more, I'll never understand the desire some have to criticize the philosophy of these movies: anyone who walks into these flicks expecting something particularly profound has no one to blame but themselves if they feel let down.
It's science fiction, let's not forget, and it's about being cool before it's about being deep. Still, it's not really simplistic or stupid...if anything, I think it deserves praise for forming what is basically a Terminator/Star Wars synthesis. It's fun, it's cool, and it's compelling. Perhaps the Wachowski Brothers would do well to issue a public warning to all elitist cinephiles to stay far, far away. But hey, maybe this flick'll cause a few of them to see the light.
I can dream, can't I?
Originally posted by Yoda
Zion was horribly stupid in most ways
That, I am gonna have to agree with. I was originally interested in seeing what Zion was going to be like. Broadening out the scope and directions of the areas. I didn't reall go for the "wild jungle" presentation. . I expected a much more of the living city.
That's my opinion I guess.
Otherwise, it kicked maximum a**!!!
nutsnbolts
05-16-03, 12:54 PM
Anyone else notice that they are so technical about everything they talk about. How the matrix works, etc. etc. etc. It was very interesting and great imagination but dang, I was like come one kick his arse!! Kick his arse!! HRMPH!!:sick:
For the record, the film's better the second time around, too. Like the first, it appears to improve with each viewing.
A few things that stand out to me at this point (both good and bad): The claims of "too much power" seem even sillier upon a sophomore screening. Anyone who's seen the last 10 minutes of the film ought to know quite well that Neo is vulnerable. What's more, why don't I hear the same gripes in regard to Superman and its reverse-rotation time travel inanity? This really isn't any different. If anything, it's strikingly similar.
Anyone who inhales the freeway sequence and sees it as anything less than a major contribution to the world of sci-fi action/adventure needs to have their head checked.
Upon reading another review, I was able to pinpoint something that caused the film to lack the same emotional weight as the first: injury. I've little to no problem with Neo being 99% indestructable within the Matrix...but we needed, in my opinion, a few of the other characters to take a tad more of a beating. This is due in part to the wussification of the Agents. They've gone from badass to nuisance in just one film. Disappointing in much the same way the emasculated Nazgul were in LOTR: FOTR. They had their moments, but they should've been a greater threat.
Agent Smith is this franchise's Gollum. He's going to be the X-Factor that the machines fail to take into account, and will consequently allow some Hobbit-esque strategy or manuever to slip through the cracks.
Kong enjoyed the first Matrix (*** of ****); it's not fantastic, but it's an enjoyable action picture wth enough complexity to keep you thinking. This sequel on the other hand was not as good, and Kong will probably be giving it **1/2. The Wachowski's definitely pulled a Lucas and went CGI insane, the going back and forth between fights and "philosophy" felt choppy, the Zion rave was awful, and the end added so much complexity that Kong thinks it may have ruined it's logic (which was shakey to begin with).
We'll have to hold off on logic judgements until November, methinks.
Sexy Celebrity
05-16-03, 05:52 PM
Hmmm.... I think I'll go read about all that happens in this movie at themoviespoiler.com
The architect said "You are only human, and so you may not understand everything I say."
He wasn't talking to Neo, he was talking to us.
Though that was, to me, a wonderful conversation.... and I think I understand. I started to form the idea during the conversation, specifically when he talked about then doing this 6 times already. It was later confirmed (to me) with that bit with Neo at the end (did you all remember to stay after the credits for the trailer btw?) I think that pretty much the only people who have a chance to understand that conversation are people with computer knowledge. The issues he discussed were issues that computer scientists should be familiar with, and finally the Oracle, the Keyman, and everything else all made sense.
He said that .001% of people did not accept the Matrix he created and that they needed special treatment. Well what was that special treatment? Another matrix.
If 99.99% of the people who rejected the main matrix accept the second matrix then you're down to just 0.000001% of people who reject both the first and second. Or, Neo.
So yes, there are 2 matrices. Atleast two.
When a human rejects the matrix the machines switch them over to the second matrix. Why do they do this? Well because they don't want to lose their battery and because it would not be efficient to track down every delinquent. Instead they create a second virtual world and give the humans a city to congregate in. Every once in awhile when these anomalies reach a critical mass they are deleted, in mass, in Zion. That is the purpose of Zion, Agents try to stop him? Why did they make things so hard for him? To make it seem real, for him. If they made it too easy he the Oracle, the keymaster, and everything else.
Everyone is still in a pod. It wouldn't be efficient to delete everyone individually, so they group them all in Zion to be deleted in mass by killing their minds.
This deletion is necessary, Neo is necessary, so why did the Agents try to stop him? Why did they make things so hard for him? To make it seem real, for him. If they made it too easy he might not succeed.
Then there are those exile programs. What bull? I hope everyone familiar with computers rolled their eyes when the Oracle was explaining that. Come on, programs? But in the end it makes sense. Those programs weren't rogue programs but rather programs made to guide Neo through the process. The keyman's purpose was over when he died, he had opened the door. The question is, why? Right... how much did the question of "Why" come up in conversation in that movie... its all foreshadowing see.
Why require Neo at all? Well he is the anomalie, of the second matrix, he is that .0000001%, by giving him this purpose, this pacifier, they keep him under control and negate the threat.
Its like your temporary internet files. It would not be practical to delete them after you are done viewing each page. So you store them in a central location for periodic mass deletions.
These same ideas can be seen in the first movie. Agent Smith decribes the first matrix, how it was perfect, and how humans would not accept the reality. Morpheus and Neo talk about how Neo always felt that something was not quite right with the world he was living in, he wasn't accepting the reality. So the machines move such people to another reality, and have a go.
Now Neo has also rejected that reality, and now the fight is really on.
I remember how there was this physicist on The Screen Savers talking about movie realism and he said (duh) that there could be a city at the center of the earth. Well there isn't, in truth Zion doesn't exist, its just your temporary internet files.
if{$target == 1stmatrixanomalie{
move($target, secondmatrix);
if($target == 2ndmatrixanomalie{
move($target, secondmatrix);
load_deletion_sequence($target);
}
So... to handle the first matrix anomalies (Morpheus, Trinity) they move them to the second matrix, to handle the second matrix anomalies they create this "The One" quest as a pacifier and engineer the end result to be a clearing of the anomalies. Reboot.
Of course I could be wrong, I'm not THAT familiar with the supporting material for this movie... just the movies themselves.
To add on a little more
The machines must use Microsoft software.
Remember how there were tons of memory leaks and other problems with Windows 95 and 98? How the longer some programs and the OS would run the slower they got because anomalies eventually hogged your memory? How the system would eventually crash without reboots?
Same thing. The software isn't perfect, it needs resets to keep working.
Brilliant, Aspen. Absolutley Brilliant. I thought i was following along fine, but only one thing didnt make sense.
All in all i thought it was a great movie. Whats better than morpheus with a Katana and a Machine Gun?
I dont think i coud last 4 years for a sequel like i waited for 'Reloaded'. Thank God we only have to wait six months!
Aspen's post is pretty much the way Kong saw it as well, but there is still a big question left unanswered...
Why don't the machines simply put humans in a coma like state so they don't have to bother with all this matrix nonsense?
LordSlaytan
05-17-03, 03:06 AM
No kidding. Clone bodies with only a portion of the mind functional so they can have life support. But they don't even need that, they have the technology to create the matrix...
Oh yeah, there'd be no story then. I forgot.
Oh, I dunno, maybe we generate some kind of beneficial brain activity concious that we don't otherwise. All that matters is that there are some potential explanations, and not that we necessarily get one, in my opinion.
It ain't science, it's science fiction.
LordSlaytan
05-17-03, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Yoda
It ain't science, it's science fiction.
*plonk*
(nail on the head)
Originally posted by Yoda
Oh, I dunno, maybe we generate some kind of beneficial brain activity concious that we don't otherwise. All that matters is that there are some potential explanations, and not that we necessarily get one, in my opinion.
Well your opinion is wrong!:laugh:
frutkake
05-17-03, 12:18 PM
Thanks for clearing up a few things Aspen.
But that does'nt change how I feel about the movie.
what I found...
GOOD
- Agent Smith rocks, Hugo weaving does a great job with the character. I like the way Smith's personality has changed, funnier..
- The expansion of Smith's story.
- The 'twins' were bada$$.
- Neo VS all those Smiths
- Monica Bellucci:love: :randy:
- Some of the special effects.
- The ending
Now the BAD
- The journey towards the ending, I did'nt really care what was happening up until the end. I just wanted them to shut up, get it over and done with and move on.
- The crap and boring speeches, Morpheus the main culprit.
- Zion, damn that was stupid, it was like from a star wars movie with all the tribal stuff, robes, dances.
- The Zion rave scene:sick: totally out of place.
- Sometimes fight scenes started for no apparent reason.
- The KFC dude ( The Architect) at the end.
- Keanu Reeves can't act.
- The choice of music for the fight scenes, I found them crap and did'nt really match the action and excitement on screen.
- Some 'Virtual actors' looked very fake.
- Tank, what happened to you man, Link just does'nt compare to you.
Thats all I can think of Now.
Overall I found it a disapointment but I'm sure I'll won't find it as bad when I watch it again ( On Video). I Liked the first one very much and was expecting reloaded to be better but I was wrong.
The trailer for Revolutions looked really good but so did the one for Reloaded and see how that turned out.
Alas, these are my opinions and mine alone.
Sullivan
05-17-03, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Fallen Hero
First off, I do believe if you are an honest die hard, matrix fan, and you became obsessed over it after the first film, you will not like its predecessor "Reloaded".
Well, in my case at least, you believe wrong.
In the beginning of the movie, after the ebakanezzer (ship morh, and neo are on) land in Zion, a GIANT party erupts from the 250,000 humans inhabiting the great underground city. People begin to dance, and in the foreground, neo and trinity decide to use this time to go off to their room and have sex....again.
The ship is actually called the Nebuchadnezzar. But since you're obviously such an honest, die hard matrix fan who became obsessed over it after the first film, you already know that.
While neo is off doing his thing, they show around a 15-20 minute scene that made me feel like I was watching a grind video from MTV. Great.... hot chicks grinding on eachother, wet t-shirts, partial nudity, all greats things to include into a movie. But for a movie like the Matrix, it all just did not make sense to me, and I feel it would of been better to just cut that scene into 1/3 of what it was. There is just no point to show a clip that long, and that pointless.
It was more like 10 minutes, but I agree with you: it was gratuitious. Morpheus' speech was likewise fluffy and pointless. I suppose it served the purpose of whipping the Zionites into a lusty frenzy and giving them courage (ie good crowd control) but beyond that, I don't see what it was good for. I personally was waiting for him to whip out the "The One will save us" speech and was somewhat disssapointed that he didn't do anything of the sort. Instead we get something more along the lines of, "We will resist the power of the machines..WITH THE POWER OF TECHNO!" UNTZ*UNTZ*UNTZUNTZUNTZ*
Apart from these minor gripes, this movie did what it had to do, and did it very attractively, I might add. I paid $18.00 for two tickets for a late-night showing (thanks, fandango.com, for your gratuitous service charges, I will never buy tickets from you again) and I feel I got my every penny's worth.
Austruck
05-17-03, 07:57 PM
See, I don't really see the rave/sex scene as superfluous. My instant thought in that scene (especially cutting back and forth to Neo/Trinity and their facial expressions, etc.) was to contrast vividly humans and machines. That is, this sort of primal, emotional release is something machines will never be able to understand or quantify properly.
I dunno. I guess I didn't see any problem with it because of its stark contrasts. Those were doubly evident during the sequences of Neo and Trinity naked because of the leftover plug-holes in their bodies, things you don't normally see on them in other scenes. It was a reminder that they themselves were once machine-like, but were now free to enjoy one of the truly holistically human experiences: sex.
Didn't anyone else take it this way?
Someone mentioned Agent Smith being perhaps a wrench in the cogs in Revolutions. That sparked a thought I started to form while watching the movie. Early on Smith "thanks" Neo for freeing him and says he doesn't quite know what about him has changed. And now that he's sneaked his way into Zion (via Bane, I think), I am wondering if he might come over to the "good side" (a la Darth Vader) at the end, preferring humanity after all. It would certainly be quite a switch from the man who couldn't stand the smell of human sweat in Matrix 1.
Well, them's my thoughts. A good, fun movie overall, even with the parts of the multiple-Smiths scene where everyone looked like a fake video-game version of themselves. Once in a while if you keyed in on Reeves' face, you could tell he was CGI at that moment. But they were counting on you NOT looking at that, of course.
ALSO, hadn't I heard that the actress who plays the Oracle died? At what point did she die, since that was obviously still her in this movie? Will she then just not be in Revolutions? Just curious...
Linda
Austruck
05-17-03, 07:59 PM
Oops, Chris, can you make my post a spoiler and then delete this. I dunno how and always forget to do it! Thanks!
Austruck
05-17-03, 08:14 PM
One last comment about the rave scene: Heck, if you didn't have the kind of easygoing, everything-handed-to-you lifestyle that all of us here take for granted, what ELSE would you have to do for entertainment?
This kind of "entertainment" is pretty much all these people have left. It's primal, it's urgent, it's fully human, and to me it made perfect sense.
That having been said, I too was disappointed with Zion as a whole. I mean, wouldn't these people have to have some sort of internal commerce, industry, work? Seems like they all just sit around in little rusty cubicles and wait for something to happen. Even the commander who took Neo down to the engineering wing said he hadn't a clue how anything worked to keep everything going. Frankly, I'd imagine that place would need all hands on-deck 24/7 to keep it functioning on such old, battered equipment. It would not by any stretch of the imagination run itself so smoothly as it seems. Those people have far too much free time.
I would have liked to have seen more of the daily life of Zion -- the industry and bustle of the "city" as a true city. Not just as a waystation for Neo and his gang to grab a catnap, make a speech, have sex, and then whoosh, they're off again.
Them's my other two cents.
Oh, I dunno about that. They seem to have sufficient technology to do more than just grind against each other for entertainment purposes. If they can teach themselves Kung Fu in a matter of minutes, I think it's safe to say they've got Nintendo, at the very least.
Regardless, It was too hedonistic and as such did not line up with the high-minded concepts Morpheus is so fond of.
"We shall forge our destiny! We shall reclaim the earth for all of mankind and cast off the shackles of mechanical oppression! But first, dryf*cking!"
Austruck
05-17-03, 09:07 PM
So you didn't see at all that it could have been, "But first, let's celebrate our humanity"? "Our difference from the machines"?
Still don't have a problem with it, frankly.
Austruck
05-17-03, 09:09 PM
As for the technology, I just recall not being too impressed with things like their food choices or clothing and hygiene situation. They use the technology because they have to. But they haven't really made themselves a very livable situation in terms of creature comforts. It probably doesn't help that they're forced to live hidden away, no access to growing things on the surface of the earth, etc.
I would have like to have seen a little more of that daily struggle.
So you didn't see at all that it could have been, "But first, let's celebrate our humanity"? "Our difference from the machines"?
I saw that it could have been that, yes, and I'm sure that's what they were going for, but I feel they messed it up. It could've been clever and poignant...instead it was juvenile. It was MTV. It's not so much the concept that I didn't like, as the execution. In my opinion, the end product was a scene that felt completely out of sync with the rest of the movie(s) so far.
I would have like to have seen a little more of that daily struggle.
Agreed. Given the amount of time they devoted to Zion, you'd think they'd have expounded on that sort of thing a bit more.
Austruck
05-17-03, 09:20 PM
Fair enough. Perhaps I didn't have as much problem with that scene because I pretty much never watch MTV (except The Osbournes and the occasional Jackass episode). So it didn't "remind" me of that at all.
Okay, now that I have your attention, what do you think about the whole Smith-as-redeemable idea? Did that possibility occur to anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? (she says, in her best Ben-Stein voice)
Was he redeemable? He still seems bad, just bad for a different reason. He does seem more human now, though, I'll give you that, and with that change comes some sympathy, but ultimately it seemed to me he was still interfering with all good guy stuff.
Austruck
05-17-03, 09:28 PM
Yes, but Vader was like that till the end too. Granted, we were given a reason in Empire Strikes Back to hold out hope for him -- he's Luke's dad.
In Smith's case, could it just be that he has become "infected" with some element of humanity, and now that he is in some sense among the humans (via Bane), he could prefer it?
I'm talking about movie 3 here -- what *could* happen. Might not be as inevitable as Vader's turn, but then again, those movies weren't big on shocking plot twists, frankly. Most all had a keen amount of foreshadowing.
LordSlaytan
05-17-03, 09:39 PM
Can't the two of you do this at home? ;D
OH WAIT. YOU ARE, AREN'T YOU?
Austruck
05-17-03, 09:41 PM
LOL ... we're at different homes.
Although when he's here at this home, I've been known to call him down to dinner using AIM and email.
:rolleyes:
Sullivan
05-17-03, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Austruck
See, I don't really see the rave/sex scene as superfluous. My instant thought in that scene (especially cutting back and forth to Neo/Trinity and their facial expressions, etc.) was to contrast vividly humans and machines. That is, this sort of primal, emotional release is something machines will never be able to understand or quantify properly.
I dunno. I guess I didn't see any problem with it because of its stark contrasts. Those were doubly evident during the sequences of Neo and Trinity naked because of the leftover plug-holes in their bodies, things you don't normally see on them in other scenes. It was a reminder that they themselves were once machine-like, but were now free to enjoy one of the truly holistically human experiences: sex.
Didn't anyone else take it this way?
Interesting take. No, I didn't think of it this way, but I'll admit it could work, seen from that angle.
And, knowing the Wachowski brothers usually don't do anything without a very good reason, you are probably on to something.
*grumble*
nutsnbolts
05-18-03, 01:46 PM
I'm sorry but the movie Matrix Reloaded was, in my opinion, stressing for things to prepare for the Revolution. The strength of love between Neo and Trinity, the passion that Morpheous has with the prophecy, the intricate explanations and philosophical nature of the Matrix. These are a only a few key elements that they stressed on and basically everything else was sugar coated, ie. FIGHT scenes.
Think about it, we all went to to this movie to watch the awesome fight scenes (although CGI enhanced) but bottom line, I think the Wachowski brothers are preparing for something bigger. That's what gets me excited!
I'll tell ya' what, I really dug the twist (if you want to call it that) that Morpheus is an outcast to some. I think it adds a level of realism that wasn't present in the first. Clearly, were that world to exist, a number of the inhabitants of Zion would reject Morpheus' claims. It went hand-in-hand with the film's other means for casting doubt on all we thought we'd learned from its predecessor.
Caitlyn
05-18-03, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Austruck
See, I don't really see the rave/sex scene as superfluous. My instant thought in that scene (especially cutting back and forth to Neo/Trinity and their facial expressions, etc.) was to contrast vividly humans and machines. That is, this sort of primal, emotional release is something machines will never be able to understand or quantify properly.
I dunno. I guess I didn't see any problem with it because of its stark contrasts. Those were doubly evident during the sequences of Neo and Trinity naked because of the leftover plug-holes in their bodies, things you don't normally see on them in other scenes. It was a reminder that they themselves were once machine-like, but were now free to enjoy one of the truly holistically human experiences: sex.
Didn't anyone else take it this way?
I basically had the same thoughts on that scene Austruck… I did think they could have conveyed the same message in a little less time though…
Did the “twins” remind anyone else of Milli Vanilli… :D
:rotfl:
Given their appearance, Milli Vanilla would be a tad more appropriate name. I dug 'em. And I concur on the time issue...the scene was twice as long as it had to be.
Caitlyn
05-18-03, 03:24 PM
That name does fit a little better… :laugh: … I thought they were pretty cool too… except for the fact it took me a minute to get that song Girl You Know it’s True out of my head… :D
Oh my god, this is the most boring movie I've ever seen. I just got back and I want to go to sleep because I'm so bored even thinking about it. Where's the kick to it? There's no visceral feeling, it's all a big computer game. Yuck. :sick: And that rave was the lamest scene of all time, in any movie.
blibblobblib
05-19-03, 01:22 PM
Call me a fool.....actually dont, but when was "Matrix Reloaded" released in the US? I thought it was a world premier thing like they do with LOTR? Im going to see it this Wednesday when it opens over here and i cant wait!!!! :love: :eek: :D
May 15th. Thursday. Previews available Wednesday night.
Fugitive
05-19-03, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Steve
it's all a big computer game.
Well it's supposed to be within a computer program...?
I thought it was pretty damn good. Some people I know thought the fight scenes were boring or just too much of it. Well, my thoughts were that they were better than the first and let's face it, one reason we go to see it for that and the effects.
I thought the Zion scene was pointless tho and too Star War-ish. I agree if they're going to show a place where humans are hiding, then everyday struggles would've sufficed. It just felt like a place to add a bit of fluff.
The plot became a bit thin and the speeches too long but I'm hoping this is only the 'bridge' between the first and last installments.
Overall I went to be entertained and it achieved that goal.
Originally posted by Fox
Well it's supposed to be within a computer program...?
No, watching the movie was like watching somebody play a computer game. Boring and annoying when they tell you how cool it is.
Dude, like, no way, and stuff. Call it stupid or unrealistic or uncompelling, if you like...anything other than boring. I refuse to believe you were bored during the burly brawl, or during the highway chase sequence.
The burly brawl was like watching a virus attack a white blood cell, which was kind of cool until Neo flew away like the bitch he is. The highway chase sequence went on for the length of a bible and lost all cool points when Neo came to the rescue, although that shot where the trucks are exploding around them when they fly away is pretty gangsta. My least favorite part, though, was the Eurotrash idiot. He served no purpose other than to be annoying.
Sexy Celebrity
05-19-03, 11:38 PM
I haven't seen "Matrix Reloaded" yet and after hearing some negative feedback, I thought I'd just forget about seeing this. Big, hyped up movies drive me nuts anyways. But then I read that my favorite movie reviewer, Roger Ebert, gave this movie *** and 1/2 stars. :eek:
flick chick
05-19-03, 11:54 PM
I liked Reloaded more then the first. There are obvious mistakes that I believe we are suppose to catch. Such as,.. "Tank" not dying in the Matrix but, dead in Reloaded. The body plugs being removed in Matrix and then reappearing in Reloaded and so forth and so on.
I seems to me that this means that the "obvious" reason is that Reloaded is completely in the Matrix. In other words,.. Zion has been defeated six times or more in the Matrix only. The Matrix has created what it believes Zion to be like (smokers, pagan dancing etc.). And it is trying to prepare itself for the actual battle that it will face with Neo.
Just my quess.
Looking forward to Revolutions and seeing Tank again. ;)
Yer gonna need a spoilers notice there, I expect.
Originally posted by flick chick
I liked Reloaded more then the first. There are obvious mistakes that I believe we are suppose to catch. Such as,.. "Tank" not dying in the Matrix but, dead in Reloaded. The body plugs being removed in Matrix and then reappearing in Reloaded and so forth and so on.
I don't quite follow. Tank bit the dust sometime between the first and second movie, I'd assumed...and I haven't noticed any continuity errors in regards to the body plugs.
Originally posted by flick chick
I seems to me that this means that the "obvious" reason is that Reloaded is completely in the Matrix. In other words,.. Zion has been defeated six times or more in the Matrix only. The Matrix has created what it believes Zion to be like (smokers, pagan dancing etc.). And it is trying to prepare itself for the actual battle that it will face with Neo.
I don't entirely follow this, either, but if you're saying you believe the alleged "real world" to be nothing but a second Matrix to dupe those a little less easily fooled than most, than I would agree that it's a very likely explanation...and a rather clever one, too, as it ties up several other loose ends.
MovieGeek
05-20-03, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by Austruck
See, I don't really see the rave/sex scene as superfluous. My instant thought in that scene (especially cutting back and forth to Neo/Trinity and their facial expressions, etc.) was to contrast vividly humans and machines. That is, this sort of primal, emotional release is something machines will never be able to understand or quantify properly.
I dunno. I guess I didn't see any problem with it because of its stark contrasts. Those were doubly evident during the sequences of Neo and Trinity naked because of the leftover plug-holes in their bodies, things you don't normally see on them in other scenes. It was a reminder that they themselves were once machine-like, but were now free to enjoy one of the truly holistically human experiences: sex.
Didn't anyone else take it this way?
When I left the theater and begun discussing Reloaded, I was the only one defending that scene. I got the feeling that the whole point of it was to make the audience grow feelings towards the people of Zion more, so that they'd care more if and when they died, etc. And I like your HUMAN vs. MACHINE thought, too. But it was long, and after much debate/discussion, i think that it could have been done better.
As for complaints about CGIs : I'll admit that a few times too many it was quite noticable that it was fake, but the Wachowski Bros. made themselves the BEST loophole for that: it LOOKS fake becuase it IS in fact, FAKE. All of the fake looking parts were in the Matrix, and thus, not real. NO ONE can argue with that. (I don't think)
One last note: i live in Alameda where some of the film was shot. The whole Zion cave/rave thing was built in a makeshift soundstage in an abandoned hanger on a former Navy Base, and made almost entirely of styrafoam... i found that interesting anyways.
flick chick
05-20-03, 11:09 AM
Neo's body plugs (except for the neck plug) were removed on the nebuchadnezzar in "The Matrix". Tank and Dosser never had body plugs because they were born in Zion. The rest of the crew had apparently been released from the matrix and bore only neck plugs to reenter the matrix when necessary.
The Matrix didn't know this. The Matirx knows that Morpheus, Trinity and Neo escaped through a land line controlled by someone named "operator". So, these characters were recreated in "Reloaded".
If Reloaded is the Matrix in practice for the actual events to happen in "Revolutions" then, it stands to reason that it would try to carry out as many scenarios as possible (practicing). Even using supernatural recreations. (So, the long fight scenes should of been expected and, heck, it's the Matrix so, kick back and enjoy these artists showing you some amazing choreography).
The Matrix will only be able to conquer Neo through his mind. It obviously failed in recreating Neo's scenario outside the Matrix, so,.. it doesn't know what to expect. If "Reloaded" was the Matrixs last practice scenario then, it appears to have decided on using the recreated Neo and the survivor on the table next to him, perhaps to fight the actual Neo?
Anyway, It's a clever way to get people to think philosophically.
Originally posted by flick chick
Neo's body plugs (except for the neck plug) were removed on the nebuchadnezzar in "The Matrix". Tank and Dosser never had body plugs because they were born in Zion. The rest of the crew had apparently been released from the matrix and bore only neck plugs to reenter the matrix when necessary.
His plugs were removed automatically when he woke up, but what we saw in The Matrix Reloaded were the remaining outlets. I don't recall them removing anything else on the ship...you can't remove an outlet, anyway. You can only fill it up with something.
Originally posted by flick chick
The Matrix didn't know this. The Matirx knows that Morpheus, Trinity and Neo escaped through a land line controlled by someone named "operator". So, these characters were recreated in "Reloaded".
You're implying that all of The Matrix Reloaded is a vast simulation in which Neo is the only actual person, and all of his friends and fellow rebels are computer simulations designed to fool him?
Originally posted by flick chick
If Reloaded is the Matrix in practice for the actual events to happen in "Revolutions" then, it stands to reason that it would try to carry out as many scenarios as possible (practicing). Even using supernatural recreations. (So, the long fight scenes should of been expected and, heck, it's the Matrix so, kick back and enjoy these artists showing you some amazing choreography).
The Matrix will only be able to conquer Neo through his mind. It obviously failed in recreating Neo's scenario outside the Matrix, so,.. it doesn't know what to expect. If "Reloaded" was the Matrixs last practice scenario then, it appears to have decided on using the recreated Neo and the survivor on the table next to him, perhaps to fight the actual Neo?
You've lost me again. What do you mean by "Matrix in practice"?
flick chick
05-20-03, 11:46 AM
Think of it this way Yoda,..
Reloaded is The Matrix Reloaded. Like reloading a weapon. It's gaining information for its defense or offense against Neo.
The actual survivor's,.. Neo and Trinity and Morpheus and Tank are relaxing in the actual untouched Zion.
The Matrix has no idea what Zion looks like so, we saw just one of the Matrixs scenarios for Zion. i.e. people were smoking in Zion,.. hmm,.. where were the tobacco fields? The crops of any kind?
There were so many "obvious" mistakes. I can't see these two writers making them other then on purpose.
The only other body plug (original The Matrix) that I can remember on Neo was the one they used for his I.V.. The other characters didn't seem to have any. Other then the one on the back of their necks.
I could be wrong.
Originally posted by flick chick
Think of it this way Yoda,..
Reloaded is The Matrix Reloaded. Like reloading a weapon. It's gaining information for its defense or offense against Neo.
The actual survivor's,.. Neo and Trinity and Morpheus and Tank are relaxing in the actual untouched Zion.
The Matrix has no idea what Zion looks like so, we saw just one of the Matrixs scenarios for Zion. i.e. people were smoking in Zion,.. hmm,.. where were the tobacco fields? The crops of any kind?
I'm just trying to make sure I understand you properly: you're floating the theory that all of what is contained in The Matrix Reloaded is nothing more than a computer simulation? Therefore, none of the events which allegedly take place involve actual humans, it is merely a scenario (one of many) that the machines have run, internally? And you believe that in The Matrix Revolutions we will see a variation of the events in The Matrix Reloaded, only this time it will involve actual human beings, and therefore will produce different oucomes?
Just want to make sure I understand what you're saying before I vehemently disagree with it. ;D
I don't recall anyone smoking, but even if they were, it shouldn't be horribly surprising. They're rather technologically advanced, so I'm sure they can find something to puff on. It need not be tobacco.
Originally posted by flick chick
There were so many "obvious" mistakes. I can't see these two writers making them other then on purpose.
The only other body plug (original The Matrix) that I can remember on Neo was the one they used for his I.V.. The other characters didn't seem to have any. Other then the one on the back of their necks.
Neo had outlets down his spine, if I'm remembering correctly. Plugs were inserted into each while he was still in his pod. We didn't see these same outlets on the others because I don't believe any of them removed their shirts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only characters in The Matrix to wear SHORT-sleeved shirts were the "home grown" members of the crew, Tank and Dozer. Which makes sense: I'd hide those things if I had them, too.
flick chick
05-20-03, 12:32 PM
Technology doesn't produce foundation biology (0r creation). Even in Darwinian concepts of evolution. But then, the idea of connecting neurons through a computer would make it biological and not artificial intelligence.
If biological intelligence can be tapped into then I can see the possibillity of smoking "something" miles underground. But artificial technology can not simply poof something out of nothing, it needs ingredients.
The concept of the Matrix is that "if" (for the fun of it) artificial intelligence is possible then how would biological intelligence react? Awh,.. an anomaly! Or, perhaps several! A Christ. A Buddha. A Neo!
flick chick
05-20-03, 03:55 PM
Sorry Yoda,..
I can get a bit carried away when it comes to philosophy.
:yup:
You'll probably agree that there is "Natural Intelligence"? Well, it is hoped that we can one day create "Artificial Intelligence". Which even by its nature is created from Natural Intelligence.
What The Matrix attempts to do is tap into human beings as batteries. But, what it fails to mention is that it is also tapped into billions of human minds and bodies (lots of neurons or information transmitters),.. that if theoretically connected through artificial (human made) means could act as a degree of "combined" Natural Intelligence (neurons talking to trillions upon trillions of other neurons) . "If" a Natural "combined" intelligence does exist then, anomalies would be proof. And "if" artificial intelligence could stimulate natural intelligence to create such anomalies then it might prove the existance of combined natural intelligence,...or "God" or whatever your preference in names.
We might think that we can create the next Universe through our technological amazements in artificial intelligence but, we were already put into evolutions by Intelligence that we may have forgotten.
Hmm,... maybe another series? ;)
Anyway,.. it's highly unlikely that we'll be able to create some- thing from no- thing.
Must admit that if the brothers haven't taken it a bit deeper then the first, it will be quite dissapointing but, still fun.
Originally posted by flick chick
"If" a Natural "combined" intelligence does exist then, anomalies would be proof. And "if" artificial intelligence could stimulate natural intelligence to create such anomalies then it might prove the existance of combined natural intelligence,...or "God" or whatever your preference in names.
You do realize that this is circular right?
flick chick
05-20-03, 05:21 PM
Kong,..
Absolutely. As is -O-ne in Revolutions. Incarnating or re-,.. are just drops in the infinite ocean. :)
Originally posted by flick chick
Kong,..
Absolutely. As is -O-ne in Revolutions. Incarnating or re-,.. are just drops in the infinite ocean. :)
Whatever that meant.
At any rate the flaw in the argument makes it rather uninteresting don't you think?
I love philosophy. I love theology. I love experiments and exercises of the mind, and I have no tolerance for people who insist that they are ultimately meaningless.
That said, I've still no idea what you're talking about.
flick chick
05-20-03, 06:22 PM
Kong,..
What "flaw" and "argument" are you referring to?
Sometimes when we don't understand we may give up trying to comprehend and thus become bored?
There's a few teenager's here that found the movie "boring" because they didn't understand what was going on. In this particular movie the primer is the first movie but, they take the philosophy a little deeper in the second (at least I hope that they are).
Yoda,..
(laughing) that's ok not very many do. All is so ultimately meaningful!
BTW,.. I'm a moderator of a forum for anamolies (figure that one out). We're called "nder's". Just stopping by to check out a little public opinion.
Hoping all a great and wonderous life! :)
Maybe check back after the next movie.
Originally posted by flick chick
Kong,..
What "flaw" and "argument" are you referring to?
Kong was referring to
Originally posted by flick chick
"If" a Natural "combined" intelligence does exist then, anomalies would be proof. And "if" artificial intelligence could stimulate natural intelligence to create such anomalies then it might prove the existance of combined natural intelligence,...or "God" or whatever your preference in names.
Even if the premises were true it's flawed by its circularity and proves nothing. Kong feels that arguments that argue using deceptive tactics that cause meaning to be inextricable are uninteresting.
Originally posted by flick chick
Sometimes when we don't understand we may give up trying to comprehend and thus become bored?
This may be true, but it seems irrelevant at this point.
Originally posted by flick chick
There's a few teenager's here that found the movie "boring" because they didn't understand what was going on. In this particular movie the primer is the first movie but, they take the philosophy a little deeper in the second (at least I hope that they are).
Are you sure that they found the movie boring because they didn't know what was going on? Or is it possible that the found it boring because it didn't engage them? Or maybe because the film raises questions, but never seems to answer them? Or maybe they were bored with how the film used lame speeches as segues into mindless action sequences? Or maybe we should just let the people who didn't like it speak for themselves...
Personally, Kong doesn't see that much philosophy occuring in The Matrix. Sure it raises philosophical questions, but asking questions isn't the same as philosophizing. The film leaves that part up to us.
I'm not sure if you have intended to imply the things you seem to have implied, but regardless, rest assured that I'm quite capable of understanding just about any philosophical concept if it's explained properly.
What we have here is not a lack of ability, but a breakdown of basic communication. This is made evident by the fact that I asked a couple of questions earlier to attempt to cut through the confusion, but didn't appear to receive any answer. I am willing to consider the possibility that you're floating some theory that my mind is not capable of comprehending...but so far I remain unconvinced that this confusion is the result of anything of the sort.
trunksy
05-20-03, 10:12 PM
If you already haven’t heard, the Oracle won’t be returning in the third one. She died from diabetes after the shooting of the second Matrix movie. She was so cool. I would have liked to see how she fits in during the last 24 hours of the war in Matrix: Revolutions. If, as in intuitive program, she would be lost at the end of the war or if the Matrix gets preserved in some way. That’s what the foreshadowing on the engineering level was all about. It's a pity that the Oracle will not be a part of the last installment of the Matrix saga. 6 months is too long to wait for the end of this epic story, though.
To all you haters out there who didn't think the next installment of Matrix rocked, you're jealous because you were one of the other people who walked out of the theatre saying, "I don't get it."
I'm sorry to say that the Wachowski brothers are too well read for the general public. They understand the science behind so much of the story that when it comes time to write it, everything logically fits so well together. I love it. It's like Dr. Michael Crichton's movies. If you're well educated, everything makes perfect sense to you because you enjoy the classic foreshadowing, the science(if you're a geek) and philosophical debates that are brought out in the storyline. If you don't follow any of that mumbo jumbo, you can still enjoy the action and the awe of the phenomenon whether it be dinosaurs or powerful "programs". The Wachowski brothers have created an epic sci-fi phenomenon whether you think they stole some of their ideas from Japanese anime or not. They deserve credit for going to Warner Brothers and making it work.
There are only 4 R-rated movies that have ever made over $200 million. None of the 20 highest grossing movies of 2002 was R-rated. The first Matrix movie made $171 million. With the $300 million that WB spent on the two sequels, WB is betting that the Matrix sequels will meet and surpass that mark.
BTW, what do you guys think of the Matrix: Revolutions trailer? Does the last 24 hours of the war look intense or what?
What do you think about the last few minutes of the Matrix when Neo goes into a coma after disabling the Sentinals with energy, possibly photonic? If it is photonic energy, the Wachowski brothers could be paying homage to current quantum research on Einstein's Unified Field Theory.
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek/spap3.html
Huh... Whu... eh?
Gone 21 days and already it's like a dangerous new world.
Originally posted by trunksy
To all you haters out there who didn't think the next installment of Matrix rocked, you're jealous because you were one of the other people who walked out of the theatre saying, "I don't get it."
So everyone that doesn't like the movie is jealous and stupid? :rolleyes:
I liked the movie don't get me wrong.......but that whole 10 minute rave scene is not needed whatsoever!!!:sick:
grandolepotty
05-21-03, 02:25 AM
Maybe I jinxed the trilogy by boasting it was my new Star Wars- yet another beautiful symbol ridden celluloid giant of a series submerged to the commercial ridden "depths" of being a blockbuster. I am sad, so, so sad. I saw it sunday with a close friend and my fiance, and could not wait to leave the theater. I would never have imagined something so dear and spirtually simple to me, could have transformed into something so convoluted, packaged, and and mind numbing. The CGI character subplants are so bad that even my fiance, who is not attuned to critiqueing effects like I have since I was 8 yrs old(27 now), bellowed on how "video game" looking they all looked. My girlfriend and I while camping sat upon huge rock formations and let our frustrations out about the film. My girlfriend very much enjoyed the first film, as I did. It was mosaic of compiled art, ideas, and philosophies very close to us. It stood as a very important commentary on reality and satisfaction with one's life within it. I feel like I could write on and on about all my complaints, but why? If you enjoyed it, I envy you, I'm just one less person in line for Revolutions. We enjoyed our wonderful hard earned camping trip together and in the end, chalked up Re-loaded's failures to too much Heinekens on the set and no shortage of yes-men in company for constructive balance.
Reloadedrocks
05-21-03, 04:09 AM
Just saw the movie yesterday and had some time to mull over it's plot, special fx, etc. and I must say that it was one of the most throroughly enjoyable and entertaining movies I have seen in quite some time (haven't seen X-2 yet!). I do agree with others here that the dance scene went on a bit too long , but I do feel that it was absolutely essiential to the movie - it gave Zion "life" instead of just some arbitrary place that had been referenced a zillion times.
For those in the forum that have absolutely punished this film, it is quite obvious that a full understanding of the first film has yet to be undertaken. In order to appreciate every bit of the story line, you MUST have a firm grasp on the first film (not to get into a lengthy post).
Originally posted by grandolepotty
The CGI character subplants are so bad that even my fiance, who is not attuned to critiqueing effects like I have since I was 8 yrs old(27 now), bellowed on how "video game" looking they all looked.
Concerning the CGI, it was no worse than what's been seen in other movies using the same, i.e. Spider-Man, Star Wars AOTC and even X-Men (the original). Technology has not yet reached the point to where everything will look absolutely "real," especially in the extremely complex scenes movies are generating these days. And if you want to see bad, look at the Hulk, due out in a few weeks. Even the television previews look cartoonish. Spider-Man was so corny, a few scenes looked as if they let a 3 year old generate the wireframing!
So please, don't beat up the movie because of the effects. If that's your only gripe, Reloaded should win an Oscar for Best Picture (maybe not an Oscarm but you know what I mean!);)
Reloadedrocks
05-21-03, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by trunksy
BTW, what do you guys think of the Matrix: Revolutions trailer? Does the last 24 hours of the war look intense or what?
What trailer? Is it floating on the Internet already?
Originally posted by Reloadedrocks
For those in the forum that have absolutely punished this film, it is quite obvious that a full understanding of the first film has yet to be undertaken. In order to appreciate every bit of the story line, you MUST have a firm grasp on the first film (not to get into a lengthy post).
Kong doesn't want to beat a dead horse here, but is it really that hard to accept the fact that people can understand a movie and still not like it?
Originally posted by Reloadedrocks
What trailer? Is it floating on the Internet already?
The Revolutions trailer played after the credits on Reloaded. It was pretty short, and you didn't miss much. You can probably find it on the net somewhere.
Reloadedrocks
05-21-03, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Kong
Kong doesn't want to beat a dead horse here, but is it really that hard to accept the fact that people can understand a movie and still not like it?
Not to say that at all...for me, Spider-Man would fall into that category. What I'm saying is that from most of the post I've read, it was all about the action sequences not living up to "standards." When I look at that, I'm like "what standards?" This movoe broke a lot of new ground in cinematics - just because Neo may look a bit cartoonish in a scene or because a couple of scenes went on a bit too long is no reason to say the entire movie was a flop.
Also, not to continue beating said horse, but maybe it's me, but I have the strong sense that we, the general public, go into these films expecting too much (?) and become bothered when it doesn't live up to our expectations. Look at AOTC; a good movie in my opinion but the hype and hoopla surrounding the movie opened the door for "let-down-city."
We must remember that a story is being told and, unfortunately, we have to wait a while until the sum is reached before it all can make sense and can be appreciated. I know a lot of people that, when Empire Strikes Back was released, didn't like the movie simply from the way it ended.
Originally posted by Reloadedrocks
And if you want to see bad, look at the Hulk, due out in a few weeks.
I'll let ya know how I think about that when I see its screener next week.
Caitlyn
05-21-03, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Yoda
I asked a couple of questions earlier to attempt to cut through the confusion, but didn't appear to receive any answer.
Hmm... You don’t think Djangoism is contagious do you… ;)
Sullivan
05-21-03, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by flick chick
I liked Reloaded more then the first. There are obvious mistakes that I believe we are suppose to catch. Such as,.. "Tank" not dying in the Matrix but, dead in Reloaded. The body plugs being removed in Matrix and then reappearing in Reloaded and so forth and so on.
I seems to me that this means that the "obvious" reason is that Reloaded is completely in the Matrix. In other words,.. Zion has been defeated six times or more in the Matrix only. The Matrix has created what it believes Zion to be like (smokers, pagan dancing etc.). And it is trying to prepare itself for the actual battle that it will face with Neo.
Just my quess.
Looking forward to Revolutions and seeing Tank again. ;)
You won't see Tank again in Revolutions. He had a contract argument with WB and/or the Wachowskis and will not reappear in the franchise.
grandolepotty
05-21-03, 07:49 PM
From someone who fully understood the first film and has watched it too many times to mention- my comprehension of the first film was total. I've studied eastern religion and alternative metaphysical teachings for over 6 years, so I feel I there is a grasp of theory and ideals for little old me(try reading Jane Robert's "Seth Speaks"). In the humble opinion of many other former Matrix fans and I, Reloaded did not ever ascend to that level of awareness as the first had. Its dialogue, rhythm, and visual story was trite, sometimes trainwrecking, and undeservingly pretentious. The CGI gripe I had was only the cosmetic tip of the entire iceberg of dissapointment. Tell me again and over how the sequel is a match or successor to the first, and I'll point to the more than supple amount of former fans waiting for the Revolutions video release, or not at all. Daredevil's release is the last time I saw such division in Nerdville-Oy vey...
By the way-o I've read X-men only since their death in Dallas, but I love the series. I'll see X2 again for a pick me up to this gnawing dissapointment I feel. Your pal-27 and NOT ENGAGED- nor enthralled- BY RELOADED.
grandolepotty
05-21-03, 07:51 PM
Reinhardt.
-Research it.-
Originally posted by grandolepotty
Reinhardt.
-Research it.-
Yes, he was a fantastic musician indeed. Have you seen Sweet and Lowdown?
grandolepotty
05-21-03, 08:43 PM
No, pathetically this one has not seen Mr. Allen's "Sweet-" Is it worth a rental in your opinion? Can you recomend anyone today that may play that style? I saw a musician in a Georgetown jazz saloon play some sweet thumb style improvised butter. Shweet.
Originally posted by grandolepotty
No, pathetically this one has not seen Mr. Allen's "Sweet-" Is it worth a rental in your opinion? Can you recomend anyone today that may play that style? I saw a musician in a Georgetown jazz saloon play some sweet thumb style improvised butter. Shweet.
Definitely check out Sweet and Lowdown; it's quite wonderful.
Unfortunately Kong cannot reccomend any modern Reinhardtesque guitarists. Kong is admittedly ignorant on much of swing/blues/jazz, but Kong does reccomend tuning into Nation Public Radio for the Saturday Night Fish-Fry if you live in the U.S. They play lots of fantastic old music on that program. (In Kongs home town it plays Sat. 10PM-12AM, but may be on at different times elsewhere.)
rabbit6
05-22-03, 01:46 AM
I would just like to mention that perhaps a lot of you guys who thought the film was pretentious or superficial (even the dude who boasted studying philosophy and religion for 6 years) are simply being too close minded. This is a great, thought provoking film if you would just put your thinking caps on. For instance, didn't it occur to anyone that film strongly suggests that even the "desert of the real" is actually another simulation, a "martix" within a "matrix" if you will, that was put in place as another level of control, to take car of the occasional human with revolutionary tendencies. And that Neo himself is just an inevitable side effect of the Matrix and that his role is integral to the system. Just think of the ramifications of that one idea... wow, what does that say about Jesus? Also, has anybody else got the idea that maybe the humans aren't really the vicitims at all, that perhaps the entire system was created by a future generation face with ecological disaster or some other unfortunate reality that was too hard too face. Perhaps Neo wrote the Matrix himself and, being a programming and hacking genius, included himself within the program to function as the ulitmate agent. Anyway, my point is, that if you think the movie is pretentious, perhaps you're just not looking at it from the right perspective. I think that it's a lot more complex than the first, which may or not ,make it a better flick, but regardless is sure gives you a lot to think about, and that is a very good thing.
grandolepotty
05-22-03, 02:36 AM
I've read metaphysical books that were absolutely striking as far as spirtual epiphanies and setting quantum mechanics vs. the holographic universe is concerned, go and there are a majority of blithering nuts who manage to publish stacks and volumes of thesaurus infused binded nonsense. There was a simple definable essence and rhythm to the first film completely lacking in the second. The simplicity of striving to ascend beyond your environs, being unsatisfied with your drone-like station, and feeling through to the intuitive emotions beneath symbols is not new. In the Matrix the idea was for the first time actualized with such intensity as to brand its sense of awareness on a generation.
All of this has disintegrated in the successive film and what replaces is it does not please me. The constant incestuous relationships hinted at between computer systems, waking and unconscious persons, Freudian/Jungian psychology breakdowns, doesn't make for inspiration. I feel what it breaks down into is what are your personal views on reality, the nature thereof, and the psyche. Personally in my life, I've gone from being a christian conservative republican in high school-to atheist-to essential mix of beliefs green as moss liberal in my twenty something years. I truly chalk up my dissatisfaction, in the wake of this new film, to my general disagreement with its passage into complication and shedding of a beautiful base in eastern philosophy and current views on a holographic universe.
The nature of redundancy gives rise in me the disturbance of an MC Escher piece without the beauty of smooth design and care. I do see the whole yin-yang- Smith-Anti Christ=Neo Christ thing, the doubt of peeking insanity within the discovery, but it does nothing for me still, upon reflection. I half to admit to all you folks-the week before I saw Reloaded, I indulged for the first time
- altered -, a viewing on a big screen TV, one of my favorite films, Linklater's "Walking Life". So perhaps my experience w/Reloaded was set for dissapointment.
-The idea that thinks of itself is far from new, and most definitely been laid in prettier pattern.-
Originally posted by rabbit6
I would just like to mention that perhaps a lot of you guys who thought the film was pretentious or superficial (even the dude who boasted studying philosophy and religion for 6 years) are simply being too close minded. This is a great, thought provoking film if you would just put your thinking caps on. For instance, didn't it occur to anyone that film strongly suggests that even the "desert of the real" is actually another simulation, a "martix" within a "matrix" if you will, that was put in place as another level of control, to take car of the occasional human with revolutionary tendencies. And that Neo himself is just an inevitable side effect of the Matrix and that his role is integral to the system. Just think of the ramifications of that one idea... wow, what does that say about Jesus? Also, has anybody else got the idea that maybe the humans aren't really the vicitims at all, that perhaps the entire system was created by a future generation face with ecological disaster or some other unfortunate reality that was too hard too face. Perhaps Neo wrote the Matrix himself and, being a programming and hacking genius, included himself within the program to function as the ulitmate agent. Anyway, my point is, that if you think the movie is pretentious, perhaps you're just not looking at it from the right perspective. I think that it's a lot more complex than the first, which may or not ,make it a better flick, but regardless is sure gives you a lot to think about, and that is a very good thing.
Did you bother to read the posts in this thread?
rabbit6
05-22-03, 03:23 AM
i agree with you grandolepotty, that the simple yet profound sort of christ in buddhist clothing parable of the orignal matrix makes for a clearer, more universal message. And in the end thats what what make the original a hands down classic like Empire while Reloaded is sort of like a Return of The Jedi. Bigger, more expensive, more expansive, but with less heart. But I still think that it is far from sucking and meaningless which is what a lot of people in this thread have been arguing. In the end it was a solid action flick with a healthy dose of what I believe was truly though-provoking philosophy. But then again, I've never studied that stuff, and I'm sure it's pretty basic in the end, probably like a freshman seminar on freedom and choice. So maybe it's a little more boring to you. I also think, though, that some people just didn't try hard enough to get it and will be smacking their foreheads when the third movie ties together a lot of the loose ends...
rabbit6
05-22-03, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by Kong
Did you bother to read the posts in this thread?
uh, yeah, i think i read most of them, did i do something wrong? too repetive? sorry...
Originally posted by rabbit6
uh, yeah, i think i read most of them, did i do something wrong? too repetive? sorry...
No, you didn't do anything wrong; it just seemed like most of the things you mentioned in your post had been mentioned earlier.
cmspodwy
05-22-03, 07:44 AM
What are the best theories about what happens to former agent Smith? And what is his purpose in the matrix now?
He has no purpose as he says to Mr. Anderson before the huge fight. He is an exiled program. His purpose in the whole movie is most likely the deciding factor in if the humans succeed or not because he is the abnormality in this "matrix"
blibblobblib
05-22-03, 01:05 PM
This film was nothing like what i expected. NOTHING.
At first this bothered me when i got out...wasnt a huge fan of it.
But after discussing the film for about an hour, the film was getting better and better once i had thought about it! I hadnt had that feeling from a film in a long long time!:eek:
The best thing, without a doubt, about Reloaded is the story. I had no idea the story would take a turn like that, and for me, it made Reloaded the best film of the year so far and has cemented itself in the "Must watch over and over again" section of my Must-have dvd collection. :yup:
A Mindblowing, brainf*ck of a film.
P.S This is the best review post ive ever seen for a film on this site, some excellant posts and explanations/interpretations. Well Done! :up:
Horshach
05-22-03, 01:14 PM
Okay, here is the mild epiphany I had when I was leaving the theater having just watched the Matrix Reloaded; There are two matrices! This is evident in the conversation that Neo had with the Architect. The Architect told Neo that Neo had five predecessors and that Zion had been destroyed five times and that they were getting quite proficient at it. Neo is the sixth of his kind! Now, the Architect in this conversation talked about the current version of the matrix and how there was a 1% fallout among the humans. 99% accepted the matrix programming, and 1% did not. The 1 percenters were the free people of Zion who fought to free other minds and to destroy the matrix. The Architect told Neo that this kind of dissention was quite dangerous and they had to be dealt with. Neo, the prophesied ONE was supposed to go through the other door and restart the second matrix, and pick was it 20? People to restart Zion? This second matrix was designed as a waste system to deal with the one percenters. This system is restarted ever so often and the parameters by which this happens is called the "Prophecies" The freed humans are not really free at all. It is an illusion brought on by the second matrix. The ONE was supposed to follow the parameters/prophecies and restart the waste system, cleaning out the ruckus, once the first matrix had lost so many individuals. Neo was different, however. He was in love with Trinity. He was not compelled to save the general human populace; he was concerned with saving her. The final proof for a second matrix is seen when Neo and his friends are running from the sentinels. Neo stops, feels them, and shatters them in mid-air. He had awakened more fully to the second matrix. We see Neo waking very slowly through out the film while he is in the second matrix. He begins to sense people and have dreams. At the point of the sentinels He fully interacts with the second matrix. He feels them like he feels people in the first matrix. I bet when he wakes from the coma, He'll see stuff in code, just like in the other matrix. There were a lot more connections in the movie, but I'll have to watch it again if I want to see them. It makes more sense with the titles now. "Reloaded" is about the attempt to reload the second matrix, and "Revolutions" will be about breaking out of the second matrix. There was another thing as well. The story in the first matrix about the creation of AI talked about machines being able make choices, becoming sentient. This movie, Reloaded, was also about choices. At the point where Neo was supposed to enter the door to reload the system, Neo became sentient, and made a choice. I think right now all the humans are programmed how to function. That’s how the decisions are already made and the prophecies always come true. Each person playing his or her part to complete the cycles needed to run the energy for the machines, (which even though are shown in the second matrix, might be the truth. This would be within the programming of the second matrix to give a version of truth, without actual reality.) It was just like on Earth when all the machines did exactly what they were supposed to do, running and doing what they had to do to complete whatever task was at hand. But then, Choice was made and the system was revolutionized. Now here, in the sixth cycle of the second matrix, Neo a human endowed with special programming and great freedom to accomplish the parameters/prophecies makes a choice, becomes sentient, and will revolutionize the system. Cool huh?
(note: this really all came to me in like five minutes right after the movie. I really do have a life and I did not, repeat, did not spend nights philosophizing on this.)
Fish of Tuna
05-22-03, 01:44 PM
I'm not going to get into the deep philisophical (if thats how its spelt) side of da new Matrix film, but i do think that action wise this film was alot better than the original. Once bullet time was introduced back in 1999 there have been many, MANY cheap tacky crapy imitations, so i was SO happy when i saw ReLoaded and saw that the Waks.Bros and Mr. Ping showed the whole movie industry AGAIN how to create a proper action/fight sequence. I think that the car chase sequence was da greatest ever seen before EVER!:eek: and i would like any one to disagree to give some valid reasons. And the whole Neo vs 10000Smiths was bootiful, and i liked da humour
Smith-"Me, me, me, me"
Smith-"Me too"
However, to generalise what alot of people have kinda said, the sub text to this movie (da whole philosphy thing) and from my point of view da whole impact of the film, was definatly not as great as the original. I dont think that the films story and sub-plot should be criticised too much yet, not until Reveloutions has been released and all has been made clear, but as a single movie it was choppy and didnt have the flow or consistant narrative the first one had. and yeah da whole rave scene was quite random and Morpheus speech, why was he speakin/shoutin like that?
Impact wise it never could be as great as the original, the Matrix was a huge eye opener for me to alot of things that as a 15/16 year old when i first saw it totally blew my mind, plus da cool fight scenes.
I thought Reloaded was great, not as good as the original, but still a fokin good film, and has da potential to be a real deep film with da arrival of Revolutions. And to anyone who is hating on da film already, i dont think u should consider tha film as just one movie but as a whole with Revolutions when it comes out.
Also i think da whole Animatrix and comic book series on da website is also particulary awsome, da sheer depth of the whole Matrix world is amazing, and Reloaded was a real cool glimpse into that world. I think the mark of a good book/film when you feel that the writter/director knows absolutly everything about the world which they are writing about and every character has there own lives/backgrounds, and in the case of the Wachovskis this is definatly true as they have seemed to has skipped no detail.
Fish of Tuna
05-22-03, 01:48 PM
I rekon Horshach is spot on, how else can u explain Neo being able to use his bullet stopping powers on the sentinals in the "real" world
Fish of Tuna
05-22-03, 08:02 PM
Also, to every one who was wondering what da "orgy/rave" scene was all about check out the http://forums.gospelcom.net/view/hollywoodjesus/matrix_reloaded/ forum for lots of different answers.
One idea is that follows the idea that the whole "Zion/real" world is just a second Matrix is that the whole orgy thang represented the absence of Love, which means that they are in a Matrix coz deres no Love in the Matrix as it the absence of God who is Love, or sumink like that.
Originally posted by Horshach
Okay, here is the mild epiphany I had when I was leaving the theater having just watched the Matrix Reloaded; There are two matrices! This is evident in the conversation that Neo had with the Architect. The Architect told Neo that Neo had five predecessors and that Zion had been destroyed five times and that they were getting quite proficient at it. Neo is the sixth of his kind! Now, the Architect in this conversation talked about the current version of the matrix and how there was a 1% fallout among the humans. 99% accepted the matrix programming, and 1% did not. The 1 percenters were the free people of Zion who fought to free other minds and to destroy the matrix. The Architect told Neo that this kind of dissention was quite dangerous and they had to be dealt with. Neo, the prophesied ONE was supposed to go through the other door and restart the second matrix, and pick was it 20? People to restart Zion? This second matrix was designed as a waste system to deal with the one percenters. This system is restarted ever so often and the parameters by which this happens is called the "Prophecies" The freed humans are not really free at all. It is an illusion brought on by the second matrix. The ONE was supposed to follow the parameters/prophecies and restart the waste system, cleaning out the ruckus, once the first matrix had lost so many individuals. Neo was different, however. He was in love with Trinity. He was not compelled to save the general human populace; he was concerned with saving her. The final proof for a second matrix is seen when Neo and his friends are running from the sentinels. Neo stops, feels them, and shatters them in mid-air. He had awakened more fully to the second matrix. We see Neo waking very slowly through out the film while he is in the second matrix. He begins to sense people and have dreams. At the point of the sentinels He fully interacts with the second matrix. He feels them like he feels people in the first matrix. I bet when he wakes from the coma, He'll see stuff in code, just like in the other matrix. There were a lot more connections in the movie, but I'll have to watch it again if I want to see them. It makes more sense with the titles now. "Reloaded" is about the attempt to reload the second matrix, and "Revolutions" will be about breaking out of the second matrix. There was another thing as well. The story in the first matrix about the creation of AI talked about machines being able make choices, becoming sentient. This movie, Reloaded, was also about choices. At the point where Neo was supposed to enter the door to reload the system, Neo became sentient, and made a choice. I think right now all the humans are programmed how to function. That’s how the decisions are already made and the prophecies always come true. Each person playing his or her part to complete the cycles needed to run the energy for the machines, (which even though are shown in the second matrix, might be the truth. This would be within the programming of the second matrix to give a version of truth, without actual reality.) It was just like on Earth when all the machines did exactly what they were supposed to do, running and doing what they had to do to complete whatever task was at hand. But then, Choice was made and the system was revolutionized. Now here, in the sixth cycle of the second matrix, Neo a human endowed with special programming and great freedom to accomplish the parameters/prophecies makes a choice, becomes sentient, and will revolutionize the system. Cool huh?
(note: this really all came to me in like five minutes right after the movie. I really do have a life and I did not, repeat, did not spend nights philosophizing on this.)
Haven't we already gone over this before?!?!?!
Kong doesn't really mean to be rude, but these posts are getting really repititive.
catyears
05-23-03, 01:43 AM
everything that can be said about the film has been said. some great reviews ive read on here.:D
the whole story is amazing, love the idea of zion acting as another program for the so-called "rebels".
when revolutions is released, it will complete (arguably)the greatest trilogy of all time. of course there are parts that not everyone will like, but I thought it was great and will seem even better after revolutions is released!
Another thought...Smith represents a barrier between the humans and the machines. I think Neo must somehow "kill" Smith to have the break-through they are all looking for. Just a random, odd thought.
Two feet tall
05-23-03, 05:28 PM
I follow everything said so far about the 2nd matrix and the anomaly that is necessary to reload, but one thing is bugging me..
Why do all six anomalies look the same and act the same i.e. neo, if they do then they must all be genetically identical and if they are genetically identical why is this neo different. Is it the presense of Trinity?
Originally posted by Two feet tall
Why do all six anomalies look the same and act the same i.e. neo, if they do then they must all be genetically identical and if they are genetically identical why is this neo different. Is it the presense of Trinity?
What makes you say they look and act the same? We haven't seen the other five.
catyears
05-23-03, 08:09 PM
did they all go through the opposite door Neo went through?
I thought they destroyed Zion 5 times already? If they destroyed Zion 5 times already, does that mean all the anomalies picked the same door as Neo?
Awnser this: did everyone die at the end of the Matrix Reloaded? except for the few on the ship?
and was Zion destroyed at the end or is that in Revolutions?
Confused. Thanks.
Beale the Rippe
05-23-03, 08:33 PM
Grea movie. I loved it.
Some points:
1. Smith is awefrigginsome
2. The Zion dance thing sucked big time, but the coolness of the rest of the movie more than made up for it.
3. The chase scene was great, as was the end, and the multi-Smith fight.
4. I loved the preview of Revolutions. It was cool.
Some questions:
1. How was the Oracle's bodyguard able to hold his own against Neo? It would seem that Neo could mop the floor with him.
2. How did Smith get into that doorway place in the end?
If anyone can explain those to me, I'd be grateful.
On the whole: I absolutley loved the movie. It was very enjoyable and left me begging for more of what I had seen.
I agree with the Second Matrix theory. More evidence of it is when Agent Smith somehow infects that one guy who returns to Zion and later attempts to kill Neo. It doesn't seem like a program could exist outside of a computer. He was simply transferred from one system to another.
I would like someone to clear a couple of things up for me:
First, why would the machines want to destroy the 250,000 humans in Zion? If they are in the second Matrix aren't they still providing the machines with power? It doesn't seem like it would be logical for the machines to destroy all of those humans because doing so would result in less power for them. Plus, how could they be a threat if they are still in the second Matrix?
Second, why do they need a human to "reload" the Matrix? Can't one the machines reload it? Am I missing something here?
Third, why can't I stop thinking about that french dude's girl?
First, apologies to all the other people who have posted reviews of "Matrix:Reloaded". I did not read most of them, ok 99% of them, as I just don't have the time. Sorry.
I went to see "Reloaded" yesterday. I had to go alone as my wife hated the first film and refused to sit through anymore of that "kung fu computer Keanu crap"! Ok.
****Spoilers****
"Reloaded" starts out slow. I guess this is the way with sequels, or second parts of trilogies. Remember in "Empire Strikes Back" how nothing happens until the land invasion on Hoth? Nothing. Oh sure, Luke almost froze to death and was kidnapped by the Abominable Snowman, but you knew nothing would happen to him. He was the star. So too with "Reloaded". Nothing until Neo and Trinity and Morpheus go off to have Neo find the Oracle. The dance part in Zion, the sex scene between Trinity and Neo, the annoying dude whose life Neo saved....this stuff sucked. The hatred between Morpheus and that other dude over Niobe, yawn. Come on peeps, you are fighting for the existence of the human species and you still have petty disagreements over babes? Get over it!
Once the scene with the 4,000 Agent Smith's happens, the one where they attack Neo, this movie is ON! Wonderful action! The part with the French dude and his gorgeous wife is cool (touch me with that hand and you'll never touch anything again-Trinity) Another exciting fight scene with swords and axes. The awesome car chase with the agents and the albino twins. Abrupt conclusion, loved the suspense left hanging.
"Reloaded" is an incredible war/action film after a slow first 20 minutes. It is not as good as the original "Matrix", mainly because it is obviously not as fresh, there is less mythology, and too many slow spots. Cornel West as one of the councilmen in Zion is a bit too much for me to take. Looking forward to "Revolutions".
Obviously, there is more to this story than we have been told. Too many plot points don't make sense. I am sure they will all be tied up in the end.
Rock & Roll.
Focker
:yup:
lboregard
05-23-03, 10:54 PM
there's something that's bugging me about the second matrix theory, which i believe is the most plausible.
in the first matrix (the movie), we saw Neo wake up in the pod after taking the pill, and going about in the "real world".
but that was a "physical" act not a "logical" one .
what i'm trying to say is this ... ok, we have some humans inside the first matrix (the simulation), that become conscious of the matrix itself so they are awaken into the second matrix, but by a "physical" route (the unplugging inside the pond, and subsequent dump into the sawers) ????
so i guess the first matrix is contained within the second matrix, they can't be side by side ... that would be a simulation run within a simulation, not two simulations side by side.
catyears
05-23-03, 11:00 PM
It was probably my favorite part of the whole movie! It started slow? No chance! It started out like the first movie with Trinity and action. The beginning was phat! Not slow at all! Go see it again!
What if...
Zion is in the real world, the same of all of us, in the same plane of reality...
and Neo is going to enlight himself in the real world?
He didn't enlighted in the matrix 'couse it isn't the real world, he got only a big satori.
We he stops the guardians he got the real enlightment...
I know that the teory of the two matrix can fit better with the other thing (such as smith's)...
But isn't everything that we se or seem just a dream within dream?
Metaphors, boxed one onto others...
Points o' view ...
Plans of existence...
Multi layers reality...
'nighty night everyone...
And keep on dreaming!
Sexy Celebrity
05-24-03, 04:43 AM
God, I cannot believe the obsession, and the obsession for discussions of this movie/series that people have. Unbelieveable. This is starting to make all things Star Trek look cool to me.
*boggling eyes over all these pages of.... fanaticism*
Sexy Celebrity
05-24-03, 06:10 AM
Well, I haven't seen Matrix Reloaded yet, but I did just finish reading the entire story/spoilers at themoviespoiler.com
I basically know what this whole series is all about because it's all based on pre-Christianity, pre-religions, gnostic principals -- the Matrix is our planet, it's our "nothing is what it seems" reality, everything is energy, humans are not energy but the souls in our bodies are, the Matrix is what we're conscious of, Agent Smith is evil energy that spreads throughout the Matrix causing humans to move away from love and not do what's beneficial for the world and for people. These agents, viruses, whatever, keep things off track for the Architect, who is really the masculine/intellect side of God. The Mother of the Matrix is really the feminine/emotional side of God. She is intuitive and studies the psychology of humans. Through all of this fighting, through the lives of the humans in the Matrix, she learns and she is able to predict their actions, and if humans know about her, they can intuit instructions from her on how to live and how to wipe out the "Agent Smiths" and live peacefully.
Neo.... if he's the cause for the destruction of the Matrix, seems like an Anti-Christ figure to me, but in Matrix style philosophy, that's not a bad thing, because everything that goes wrong is also a good thing. The Architect can build a new Matrix from scratch (this may be seen in part 3?). He said that he doesnt need humans for energy.... well, energy isn't lost, so if the humans die, the energy will still be there.
OK, if Agent Smith is on Zion at the end as that guy.... that's not really THE Agent Smith there, because Agent Smith is just... negative energy, bad code. That guy, since he is "recovering", may not be so bad afterall. Neo shows him love, the guy is harmless. Maybe....
I'm going to bed. There's something else about dreams I wanted to say.... the beginning of Reloaded is a dream, right? It's Neo's dream... but later, it comes true? That dream was the Matrix Mother's way of talking to Neo. He had a prophetic dream. She knew everything that would happen during Matrix Reloaded, and I'm sure she knows all about the 3rd film as well.
More later.... I'm tired.
Jason's right, of course. The whole thing is, like Stigmata, a big fat commercial for gnosticism...though considerably more entertaining than its propagandist counterpart. The parallels between that system of belief and the plot of the second film are rather undeniable, though most people won't know what they're being fed and consequently won't care or notice one way or another, so Pat Robertson can sleep easy.
Sexy Celebrity
05-24-03, 02:33 PM
Yeah, and Zions are religions. Look, zion...religion... both end with "ion", a clue. There were six, going on seven, Zions, right? If Neo had gone through the right door, like the other Zion people before him, a new religion would have been founded - like how there are many religions in our world. BUT, Neo went through the left door. Cinematically speaking (does that sound corny?), that happened so that the Matrix films don't go too deep into religions and won't upset people. Since he went through the left door, after Trinity, he went straight to the source of what gnosticism believes is the foundation of all religions, whatever path you choose -- LOVE. :love:
Love which conquers all. Love -- which is what part 3 will be all about. Reloaded opened that door, literally. The Matrix trilogy will have a happy ending.
Austruck
05-24-03, 02:44 PM
Well, that, Jason, and the fact that "Zion" is a biblical name for the city of God's people and all... Lots of names with biblical undertones or connections, including the Nebuchadnezzar itself.
No small coincidence.
Right. Zion is, well, Heaven, and Nebuchadnezzar was a Babylonian king. The film doesn't hide these allusions, either, as the ship's dedication plaque (or whatever you'd like to call it) has a Bible reference (chapter and verse...Mark, chapter 3, verse 11, I think) inscribed on it.
When I first learned that Neo was the sixth of his kind, my mind immediately started looking for any possible significance to the number. Were the Wachowskis trying to mirror Christianity, as it seemed (somewhat) in the first film, they likely would have made Neo the seventh. The only religious significance I can find behind the number six is that it was the day during which God created Man.
catyears
05-24-03, 03:24 PM
nice point Yoda...
what part did they show that plaque?
is that the verse, if so I want to look it up and see what it says. thanks.
Sexy Celebrity
05-24-03, 03:26 PM
I don't think we've seen the real Heaven in the Matrix movies yet.... while Zion and the ships may seem like it, I see Zion as just mirroring Christianity, like you said. People can die on that ship, right? Why would you die in Heaven?
And Morpheus said the machines need humans to create energy... is Morpheus correct? The Architect said there would be enough energy even with all the humans dead. With the gnostic philosophy that's going on, this rings true to me. So I see the current Zion as Christianity -- The Oracle is like the founder of it, or the one in charge of all religions.
I believe there is a second "Matrix" on top of the Matrix, but it isn't a Matrix. It's.... it's the land of the green code. It's the TRUE Matrix, invented by the Architect, based on the Mother's love. This is Heaven. This is where the humans go.
I don't know if they'll put all of that into the next movie... maybe.
catyears
05-24-03, 03:33 PM
I could be wrong though.
Verse 11 says: And whenever the unclean spirits beheld him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God."
Maybe it was a different verse or chapter. Was that from the first or second movie where they showed the plaque?
Sexy Celebrity
05-24-03, 03:45 PM
They are not going to get all religious in the movie, but the Zion thinks that Neo is the second coming of Christ, a sort of reincarnation.
godisturbed
05-24-03, 08:23 PM
Hi, i saw the film friday night and thought i would check some sites out to see the opinions going around, found this place 1st.
My biggest complaint is whats already been mentioned, neo's power. I mean, why on earth even bother fighting all the agent smiths if he could just FLY off in the 1st place. At least in the 1st film he was vunerable, and got his ass kicked a little bit. You would be on the edge of yer seat during those fights, in reloded he gets scratched once i think in the whole film. It takes ANY tension out dont you think?
It was also very obvious he was going to utilise his powers in the real world at that point and it was just very, very lame knocking the robots out and then collapsing.
As for the rave scene, complete boredom and if i want to fully get the story ill have to have a dictionary to understand what the Architect is saying.
james k
05-24-03, 08:58 PM
i just saw the film today... and thought it was quite simply amazing.
since then i've read all of your posts (yes i had a lot of spare time) and its nice to see some good theoretical / intellectual posts.
i thought the 2nd matrix theory was the most plausible.
few questions..
why program into the matrix all those events so that neo will finally get through 'the door' and have a chat with his good friend the Architect when the Architect knows hes going to choose the left door anyway ? + does he really need to get neo to go and select some ppl ? why cant he get someone else to do it ? does the Architect really need to tell his finest work's biggest threat more about how everything around him actually is functioning ? (maybe its a trick) why did neo collapse after using his 'ability' in the obviously fake 'real world' ? why the hell does Kong refer to himself in the third person.... :)
Most of these questions will probably be answered in 'revolutions'
any answers would be appreciated :p
just watched Matrix reloaded, it was great:)
i even purposely stayed away from all the "making of" and "promo" stuff that has been on the telly, so it would not spoil it. Which usually is what happens.
It's has to be the "matrix" within "matrix" theory. why else would neo to be able affect stuff in the real world, coming back to life in the first film, bring back trinity and stopping the flying machine thingy's with his hand once they were suppose to be in the real world.
catyears
05-24-03, 09:59 PM
u didnt like it- u didnt understand it.
I just saw it for the 2nd time yesterday afternoon.- It's
a badass movie. From start to finish. great story.
I was also wondering why Kong refers to himself in 3rd person-
LOL
Caitlyn
05-24-03, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by catyears
I could be wrong though.
Verse 11 says: And whenever the unclean spirits beheld him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God."
Maybe it was a different verse or chapter. Was that from the first or second movie where they showed the plaque?
The hull of the ship bears a plate reading Mark III No. 11.
Originally posted by catyears
I was also wondering why Kong refers to himself in 3rd person-
LOL
Kong refers to Kong in the third person because it is what Kong must do.
Originally posted by Sexy Celebrity
They are not going to get all religious in the movie, but the Zion thinks that Neo is the second coming of Christ, a sort of reincarnation.
The paralells to Christianity were pretty straightforward in the first flick, but I don't know if they were wholly intentional. If they were, then the second film's distancing itself from them is just as intentional. Perhaps the idea they're projecting is that Chrisianity is all well and good, but only if "thou then proceeds to three," so to speak. That is, Christianity is a less spirtually mature/developed religion...and that Gnosticism is its ripened counterpart. They view it as the next step.
Given the nature and origins of Gnosticism, this seems quite likely to me.
Originally posted by Yoda
Mark, chapter 3, verse 11, I think
Originally posted by Caitlyn
The hull of the ship bears a plate reading Mark III No. 11.
:modest:
:D
Originally posted by james k
why program into the matrix all those events so that neo will finally get through 'the door' and have a chat with his good friend the Architect when the Architect knows hes going to choose the left door anyway ? + does he really need to get neo to go and select some ppl ? why cant he get someone else to do it ? does the Architect really need to tell his finest work's biggest threat more about how everything around him actually is functioning ? (maybe its a trick) why did neo collapse after using his 'ability' in the obviously fake 'real world' ?
Maybe Neo collapsed because he Isn't fully aware of his awakening in the real world. Maybe he's just too beat up (psicologically speaking of course).
Im still pexplexed by the fact that another Matrix may exist, even though this is the most logical explination for the end of the movie:
Since most of Zion has been destroyed, what other material can we base a third movie on? We only have about 30 people left.
Maybe the ending of the third movie only consist in Neo freeing himself of the Fake 'real world', and the movie will consist of a series of long discussion about the reality of Zion and the real awakening of the matrix, mixed along with lots of fighting/action scenes.
architect
05-25-03, 05:01 AM
Please don't laugh at my user name - I really am an architect, this is written down in my job descritpiton. http://www.movieforums.net/images/smilies/wink.gif
Wink
To all of you guys and gals that took Matris and Matrix:Reloaded a little deeper than just as sequence of cool CG effects (which both of them, indeed, were): Please, please take in a library or buy on Amazon "Futurological Congress" and "Summa Technologiae" of Stanislav Lem. You'll understand exactly where Wachowsky Brothers took their cool phylosophy from. They are of polish origin, they must have read Lem, maybe even in Polish (lucky ones!). The most amazing thing is that Summa Technologiae has been written in 1958, I think, and Futurological Congress - in 1976.
BTW, regarding the rave sequence - remember, there is no spoon!
And of course, of course, Matrix doesn't need humans as energy sources. Matrix needs their brains! Where else it can run? So, I think, Architect was bluffing when he said Matrix doesn't need humanity anymore... Unless Matrix learned how to grow the brains in the beakers
Your Architect
I think that Persephone may be the mother of the matrix. She is going to be in the third film and the architect says that the mother of the matrix was a program designed to study the human psyche. Persephone seemed to be playing some mind games (love and jealousy) with Neo and Trinity. And, why would Persephone betray her husband. If she's just a program she shouldn't experience jealousy or feel the need to have a kiss of love again. Then again she might not be, I'm just throwing out my theory here!
architect
05-25-03, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Sully
Maybe Neo collapsed because he Isn't fully aware of his awakening in the real world. Maybe he's just too beat up (psicologically speaking of course).
Im still pexplexed by the fact that another Matrix may exist, even though this is the most logical explination for the end of the movie:
Of course! Moreower, there must be (and surely is) endless sequence (or, rather, hierarchy) of Matrices. You never know (and cannot know by design, I'm telling you as an architect), whether you have really reached real world in your awakening. As if there is a real world...
That's the beauty of the concept. Read "Doctor Diagor". ;-)
Your Architect
architect
05-25-03, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by fahn
I think that Persephone may be the mother of the matrix. She is going to be in the third film and the architect says that the mother of the matrix was a program designed to study the human psyche. Persephone seemed to be playing some mind games (love and jealousy) with Neo and Trinity. And, why would Persephone betray her husband. If she's just a program she shouldn't experience jealousy or feel the need to have a kiss of love again. Then again she might not be, I'm just throwing out my theory here!
Wery good guess. I think you're right.
(damn! for how long time I haven't been really taken by a movie. maybe I'm returning to the childhood?)
Your Architect
downgrade88
05-25-03, 08:43 PM
I have seen matrix twice now and I have to say I also believe there is a matrix on top of the matrix. It makes no sense to me how neo could've stopped those sentinels, except that somebody mentioned maybe because of his connection to Agent Smith, who I profoundly think plays a huge role none of us can see just yet in the confusing story of this movie. Anyhow, this whole matrix on top of matrix idea reminds me of "The Thirteenth Floor" if anyone has ever seen that. Overall though I thought it was a great movie, despite all the complaints I've read about graphics and what-not, because I do not believe they were that bad.
I just went to see The Matrix Reloaded today and I have a few questions (sorry if they've already been answered):
If the 'real' world is a second matrix, what is outside of that? The actual world or just another matrix? If the architect had accounted for anyone not accepting the 1st matrix, surely he would have had a plan for anyone who does not accept the second. If Neo had the choice to walk through either of the doors, the architect would have modelled the outcomes for the choice. He may not have been able to design the matrix perfectly because he did not account for love being in the equation but if he may be using humans mind's to operate the matrix, he would know that this would be a factor. Also, he may need Neo to walk through the door to reset Zion and not another machine/program because he may be the program designed to meet that purpose. If the second matrix is fake, where do the bodies go who die in the first matrix? This could mean that the entire human race could be flushed but it wouldn't matter because it is only a simulation.
I hope this makes sense and someone can answer them.
One more thing - did anyone notice the sweets the Oracle was eating? Red pills???
catyears
05-25-03, 10:26 PM
fahn-
i like your idea of Persephone being the mother of the matrix.
makes sense, didnt think about it. I think the creator of the matrix said it definitely wasnt the Oracle.
catyears
05-25-03, 10:36 PM
gerrard15
if youre going to insult people, go somewhere else and do it.
its not needed here.
dont they have some type of admins or something to delete his stupid message.
james k
05-25-03, 10:45 PM
lol if the 'real world' is not a second matrix, what is it?
oh wait let me guess Neo is a super hero who has super natural powers in the real world?
think before you speak ;)
and the thirteenth floor was a quality sci fi film :)
His post has been deleted. We will not tolerate that sort of unprovoked hostility here.
In response to what he was saying: don't you listen? Neo assumed that The Oracle was the "mother" of the Matrix, and The Architect responded with "Please," with an air of disgust. This could mean that he finds the title "Oracle" ridiculous, or that she is not, in fact, the "mother" of the Matrix. I don't find it likely that he meant the latter, but it's not that far-fetched.
greppin
05-25-03, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Geet
I just went to see The Matrix Reloaded today and I have a few questions (sorry if they've already been answered):
In answer to your questions
If the 'real' world is a second matrix, what is outside of that?
The real world....
If the architect had accounted for anyone not accepting the 1st matrix, surely he would have had a plan for anyone who does not accept the second.
It probably goes on forever and ever....
If the second matrix is fake, where do the bodies go who die in the first matrix?
I don't think they go anywhere if your not aware of the second matrix then you get restarted. If you are you get killed, perhaps not I'm sure all will be revilled in revolutions. I like the Idea that the machines set up Zion and it's all a farse, so they can mass delete every couple of hundred years. I didn't see this story line comming at all it's so cool, I expected just some random action sequal.
Can't be assed to spell check
If the 'real' world is a second matrix, what is outside of that?
Anything.
In my opinion the recursive-matrix-theory is too simple, unsatisfying... I'd like something more sophisticated (Don't ask what exactly).
If the Zion-reality is just another matrix, everyone could be a program, the whole world being a simulation or computer game running on an alien child's playstation. I don't like that idea, in particular because the concept of nested realities isn't that new. (Remember 'eXistence'?)
/edit: Right, the movie's name is eXistenZ. And it doesn't matter here if it's *hit or not ;)
james k
05-26-03, 04:04 PM
eXistenZ ?
WHAT A LOAD OF F&%K&^G $^%7
sorry but i hate that film.
DeViL's MiMiC
05-26-03, 05:25 PM
Sup All!
Nice theory about the 2nd Matrix.....
Have a question? What's the idea of all the causalityt theory of the Merovigian guy and what is his role besides keeping the key maker prisoners? Is he gonna play a big part in the 3rd part? I think so because of what he says to Neo in the end, but i would like to know whta you guys think...
architect
05-26-03, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by DeViL's MiMiC
Sup All!
Nice theory about the 2nd Matrix.....
There is no 2nd Matrix, of course. There is just The Matrix. It includes Everything, Architect and all. The One must take some really unusual efforts in order to get out of The Matrix, not just flying thorugh The City at warp 10. It's interesting, will Wachowsky Br. come up with a truly original idea of how to achieve it in the third installment?
hi!
i really liked some ideas "freed" here. especially some ideas from flick chick. and yes, i saw someone smoking too in zion. and more than that... it was supposed that it was a closed city, so if everybody starts smoking :). but that's not a point. a point is the flick chick says something bout nder. well, i might be wrong, but my feeling, now that i saw part 2, is that the movie is something between ender's world (maybe this neo character is manipulated or something), star wars (maybe), existenz, and someone here said stanislaw lem. yes, him too, but i only read solaris so this one ring a bell to me. anyway, if so, contact me flick chick. i would like to visit that forum sometime.
a point was made also during neo's conversation with the councellor in engine's room.
and... to finish with the points... it would be interesting if we would calculate 99% of 250.000 and then 99% of the new number and so on and see when and if we'll end in some number like 1 or 20. and after how many tries it will appear. maybe i'll do that effort sometime. (anyway i guess there are more than 2 matrixes, the question is whether they are cascaded or not)
btw, does someone here believe that the highway means more than some asphalt and cars? maybe i think too far and too wrong. anyway, i'll wait opinions.
i guess the 99% thought of mine is the biggest lame thing i produced lately. i don't think it makes sense. and i'm only 5 minutes later. hmmm...
another thing to think about it: if the machines used humans as batteries, where they substracted their energy from?! i mean, the humans can STORE energy, but cannot produce it. actually in real life we transform AND store energy at the same time. but for this we need a source. and that's food. but the machines used to feed humans IV using... another humans. which needed food to have been born, raised and died. so at some point anyway they needed food. or, maybe the humans weren't used as batteries (or is it not only?!) but as 'intelligence'. maybe the machines are using the humans just like we use a computer or a cluster of computers. am i drifting from the subject?!
leaving this apart: i'm wondering... if we weren't in a world ruled by economics & power... etc, would some scenes in the movie still be that incredibly long?!
.first, the fights. if neo's the one maybe he could kick their asses real fast (but how many of you would have enjoyed the movie then?!)
.the zion party: yes i agree with the love-human-machine stuff. and here helped the music too (what was that? techno-tribal? or what? anyway... tribal-primal -as mentioned earlier- rhymes). BUT it was too damn long.
aah, and i surely disliked the backdoor metaphora: it was pretty offending for anyone who has some advanced computer knowledge. and what was the chinese? a firewall!? c'mon... that's not how authentication works. a firewall beats nobody, intruder or not.
DeViL's MiMiC
05-26-03, 06:56 PM
About Agent smith and how he exited the Matrix....
When agent Smith leaves the Matrix and enters Zion, we all suppose its still the Matrix cause how can a program exit the Matrix; much the same way how Neo uses his powers on the outside with the sentinels. This would contribute to the fact that outside the "MatriX" is either a secod Matrix or it continues to be a "Matrix", but answer me this.....
In the first movie agent Smith says to Morpheus he needs the codes to Zion's Mainframe so he can end the last human city in order to get out of the Matrix, what does this mean? Is the Agent a program? or is it the self image of a machine, much like the way human portray themselves inside the Matrix? Why does the agent say he wants to leave the Matrix? Can he phisically leave? or did he mean leave his job as agent? Can anyone help me with this....
catyears
05-26-03, 07:24 PM
what more could it mean?
what direction u going with that?
not sure what ur looking for...but sounds interesting!
who said it, Los?
i liked the backdoor metaphor- send the Wachoski brothers some props. Great movie!
Mr.Mister
05-26-03, 09:17 PM
I sat through the credits and saw the trailer for the third movie in the end, and they preview something like "Neo's final fight with Agent Smith." Rain was pouring and it looks like it's gonna be really cool.
I have a question about reloaded. In the end, did Zion all get destroyed or not?
Austruck
05-26-03, 09:30 PM
Yoda,
You asked about Neo being v.6 instead of v.7 (which would fit better with the ongoing parallels to Christianity). Here's a thought that would keep the parallels: Many Christian scholars would say that the number 7 represents perfection, and that one shy of that (6) is often seen as referring to mankind. (Yes, and part of that is man having been created on Day 6.)
This also ties in with the fact that God chose to use the representation of "666" for the Anti-Christ -- not perfection but imperfect man tripled...or something like that.
Anyway, I guess I'm just saying that the number 6 still can fit the parallels, and in fact might fit them better if Neo has flaws and is still vulnerable in some way we're a little less aware of than we were in the first film. He has to have some flaws/vulnerabilities left. Even Superman has his kryptonite.
catyears
05-27-03, 12:12 AM
good question.
i just came from seeing it a third time(yey i know, im a geek!) and I am still not sure if Zion was destroyed or not. I think it was. Not positive. The one guy said the sentinals came in and destroyed everything- "it wasnt a battle, it was a slaughter!" He could have been speaking of a number of ships. The guy laying on the table(Smith) triggered the EMP and all hell broke loose.
architect
05-27-03, 01:01 AM
I went through a few reviews on the Net and, to my big surprise, realized that half of the reviewers didn't get half of what happened in the movie even after the second watching (and still are bold enough to write the reviews :-).
It feels good. ;-)
Your Architect.
demianlives
05-27-03, 05:55 AM
To begin , I would like to say how pleased I was to come across this forum and the posts made.
It amazed me as well, reading reviews beforehand and then viewing the movie to realize what dolts! what simple minded and average people these must be who made these reviews (ie. not better than first, more action less thought in the second, etc.)..
They apparently have never read or heard of Hermann Hesse, MAchiavelli, Nietzsche, and well, the bible?!?!?!
Yes indeed, number 7 is biblical.
Every aspect of this movie had meaning on many, many levels...
Unlike a silly piece of contemporary art where many try to create or deciphe meaning from something that does not exist, or JFK conspiracy nuts trying to find something that isnt there, or a Disney cartoon where over imaginative sex crazed Americans are complaining of the "hidden" sexual meaning s in the cartoons...
These guys are very bright guys, and I had read that they know Hermann Hesse better than most German professors, now I know this is true.
Movies do not effect me, but this one did, and is truly the finest movie ever made fro Hollywood, and one of the finest of all time...
Every person had significance, every conversation...on many levels...
So then, what next, how can the sequel possibly be better?? I am expectin gto be disapppointed as I cannot imagine how it could surpass...
Again, BRAVO LADIES AND GENTLEMEN who understand it...
regards.
[email protected]
godisturbed
05-27-03, 09:33 AM
He could have been speaking of a number of ships.
Yeah surely he was because he was talking about their proposed counter attack and how it went all wrong. Zion itself is still around.
catyears
05-27-03, 10:34 AM
bravo to you I say!
just because some people dont understand the movie, doesnt make them idiots. jerk
Yeah i can agree with some that after the movie i said "wow". But not in a positive way mind you. In short i thought the movie was utter crap.
Now ofcourse i didn't like the first one, as Holden i thought it was dumb.
Why make a movie almost entirely based on special effects?
Reloaded will probably become a great example how sequals can make the original movie even worse. Scream 2 and 3 made Scream 1 crap (pretty much) to make another example.
So why didn't i like this movie? Cause i think the story is silly to begin with. Yeah i know, i dont like Sci Fi and the likes. I take good acting over special effects anyday, and frankly Keeanu Reeves is a piss poor actor.
Reloaded had pretty much everything a sequal should have. More fight scenes, wich became extremly tedious after the initial minute. I mean was that 10 min fight scene with Agent Smith and his clones really necesary? After awhile i just sighed. And WE GET IT, Neo can fight!
The story had a stronger love "twist"(for lack of a proper word). Neo and Trinity was REALLY in love in this one, as someone else pointed out earlier.
And what was up with those renegade albino dudes from Ghostbusters? Geez, and they didn't even have proper ectoplasma!
And as many have said, so much was recorded in front of a blue screen, but with the orgy of SFX perhaps that was necesary.
If you enjoyed the movie, good for you. But i did not.
first impression on matrix 2? pretty bad movie. sequels sucks. and as i said before seeing it, to be succesful it gotta shock me again as the first did. finally it shocked me, but with a ripple rather than the first wave.
second impression: the movie is like a time-bomb with a real countdown on it. why? cause i started to think about it, more and more, i started to ellaborate theories, accepting or denying theories of others. and why the countdown? because there are... 6 months left :)
third impression: maybe the whole film is like a red pill for viewers. not that we are in a matrix, oh well, maybe we are all caught in this day-by-day routine with no time for dreaming. so maybe this is the message: just dream, whether you are wrong or right. drift a little from this boring reality.
now that i've made myself courage :). of course this theory is pretty away from the subject and so far everybody found it stupid and wrong. but what the heck. just drift...
in a computer, there are several tasks that have high priority. like task manager for instance. and there are other with less or normal priority. well, task manager is mainly used to... _terminate_ other tasks. especially when there are some 'anomalies' with 'not responding' tag. but, for this to happen task manager needs to be a high priority task, so it can be called whenever as quickly as possible and, more, it can terminate or control other tasks because of its priority. so it is loaded in some kind of the highway of the cpu, very close to the core of it. so, what i want to say is that on that 'highway' usually reach only system control tasks, but no ordinary tasks. so maybe that's why they avoided highway as much as they can. just an idea. don't... terminate me. ;)
another idea, and that belongs to a friend of mine, is that the councellor is the 5th One, the last failure who rebuilded Zion. maybe this was trying to say in the engine room: "whatever you will do you will fail, and i know because i was there...". he kept repeating that there was "no point".
blibblobblib
05-27-03, 12:40 PM
:eek: OK :eek:
Seen the movie twice now and i think i totally understand the plot, my brother helped me out a bit and if i can explain this properly i think this is right..... unless this has already been repeated i apolagise! :yup:
: WATCH OUT FOR SPOILERS! :
Right...there is no 2nd matrix.
The reason that Neo could stop the sentinals in the real world is because of the code that he has inside him. When he is talking to the architect, the architect explains how Neo was chosen as the One before when he was born and he was chosen as the one that will reload Zion.
He has a code that is within him so that when he was meant to walk through the OPPOSITE door that he does walk through, the code that is inside him will automatically reset Zion. That is when he would select 12 men and 7 women or how ever many it was, and these new people would begin the new Zion. Its just like a recycle bin on a computer, it gets too full up so they have to empty it.
Why do the robots allow them to build Zion in the first place? 99% of poeple accept the matrix, the computers allow the 1 % that doesnt to come out of the matrix and build Zion. They cannot leave them in the matrix as obviosuly they would run around telling everyone the world is not real, so they allow them to come out of the matrix and start to rebel, but obviosly, they dont want them to get too big for their boots, so they creat an 'anomoly' or as we know it, The One, which has a code insde of him and will unknowingly lead the rebellion to the creation of a new Zion. That is why it has happened 6 times already. But each time the computers are getting more efficient! and think about it, when Neo comes out of the MAtrix in the first film, a robot grabs him round the neck and inspects him before letting him go so Morpheus can pick him up. If the robots didnt want him coming out fo the MAtrix, that robot would have just chopped his head off or lazer beamed him to death, i dont know.
However, what is different about Neo? All the previous Ones have chosen the door that reloads the matrix, but Neo chooses differently. he chooses the door that dooms all of mankind, he chooses specifically just to save Trinity. he chooses for love. The architect didnt expect this, but he lets him choose that door as he is interested in the out come and the reason that neo chooses. thats the bit when he says to Neo something like - "I can see it on your face now, that feeling that is washing over your body, blinding you from the truth and causing you to make a choice." He lets Neo do this and admits that he and the robots are willing to lower themselves to a new level of survival - i.e No human energy to allow Neo to make this choice, as the Architect firmly believes Neo will fail and man kind will die.
What the architect didnt count on though was Neos ability now that he (Neo) knows he has this code inside him. Due to him having this code inside him, wether his part machine i dont know, he is connected to the robots. Thats why he says "Somethings changed. i can feel them." He is part of the robots therefore he can control them and use his power on them. the architect did not bank on this!
Zion is not destroyed. The guy at the end, Baines? He is the only survivor of the troop of ships that were guarding the entrance to Zion and stopping the Sentinals from drilling any further. but He set of the EMP and downed most of the other ships allowing the sentinals to massacre all the crew. So there is no one gaurding Zion and the sentinals are only metres away from destroying it. thats when the film ends.
And obviosly Agent Smith is in the body of Baines. thats why Neo has the dream of Agent smith entering the real world through a telephone ealier in the film. I think that Agent Smith wants the job of the Architect. The Orical says that powerful men want more power. Agent Smith wants to get in that portal and take over the Architects job. thats why he is waiting by the door when Neo gets there. he has created several of himself so there is a higher probability that he can get in there and take over.
ANYWAY...i apolagise if youve read what ive just said loads of times before, but i just needed to write this down my self to make sure even i get it. SO there ya go, i think thats what the plot is of The Matrix Reloaded :yup: :eek: :dizzy:
catyears
05-27-03, 01:43 PM
i think you just about have it except for the part about there being no 2nd matrix. I think it is qiute possible that Zion is another program. not sure, your prob right about that too.
since you know alot, do you know if the Oracle is the mother of the matrix or someone else?
DonQuixote
05-27-03, 01:44 PM
I believe that you are not giving the Architect enough credit. He (I assume) really already knew the outcome of that meeting. I really dont feel like elaborating at the moment (or maybe I have no Idea how to say wha tI eman).
unanswered:
Can you jack into the matrix from Zion through the "main lines"?
If not, then what are the for?
What was the bit about "core network" and not being able to jack out of the city?
(i apologise if these have been adressed earlier.... Ill go reread the entire thread now.)
greppin
05-27-03, 02:37 PM
Tell me this how does a program a collection of binary numbers, electrical representation whatever travel into the mind of an organic being and start walking around.
The second matrix theory is feasible.. However it is a cliffhanger so I'm sure all will be reviled. I think that's the point there's not enough information in the film to let you go either way. The reason I think there's two is because generically the A.I always looks for the most efficient way of doing things so wouldn't having a second matrix be more efficient than loosing loads of batteries.
Stormreaver
05-27-03, 02:45 PM
Here's an interesting aside since no one seems to have noticed. Revolution is out on November 5th, which in the UK is Guy Fawkes night. If anyone doesnt know what thats about, its about a group of conspirators who plotted to blow up the houses of paliament, the seat of power. But he was betrayed by a fellow conspirator and was executed. Anyone see the parallel here? I think it's clear that Neo will die in the third film, it suits his Messianic image. And once his purpose is fulfilled, he'll be deleted ;)
greppin
05-27-03, 03:01 PM
Maby
iamtheone
05-27-03, 03:48 PM
Of course Zion was destroyed, folks. Does anyone think that the machines would have stopped digging after they killed all the crews of the fleet? Perspective: did Hitler stopped invading Poland after his forces broke their defenses?
No.
Zion is dead. The fleet was Zion's main defense line, and since it failed miserably, due to an infected crewmember, the inhabitants had no chance.
There is a good side: we won't have to sit through anymore pathetic Mad Max/Postman like scenes.
Zion=hottest archealogy find of the 35th century.
catyears
05-27-03, 04:37 PM
no i dont think it was destroyed yet. Neo said it would happen in 24 hours before the Nebachanezzer was destroyed. Who really knows how much time passed between that and the coma. all of that could have happened in hours and the sentinals probably havent broke throught just yet. It will probably start at the beginning of the next movie. im not sure.
DonQuixote
05-27-03, 05:09 PM
So then, what next, how can the sequel possibly be better?? I am expectin gto be disapppointed as I cannot imagine how it could surpass...
Dude... Its not a sequal, more of a continuation. II and III will match perfectly in quality and vision, as they are made at the same time with the same goals.
Tell me this how does a program a collection of binary nubers, electrical representations whatever travel into the mind of an organic being and start waling around.
Note: for some reason i couldnt copy/paste this from the other page (greppin's), so I had to retype it. Ouch. Cmon... pay more attention. Spelling isnt nearly as imortant as grammar...
OT: Uh... the tech needed to plug into the matrix is thiisss close (funny pinching gesture) to the tech needed to posess someone. This argument assumes we will make no advances in science. I find the 2 Matrix spiel unsexy, because if you let that happen the entire story has no meaning. If you never wake up....
Nebachanezzer,
ebakanezzer et all
Its Nebuchadnezzar... :rolleyes:
james k
05-27-03, 07:32 PM
ok just to settle something..
The 'real world' can't be real if neo can stop several tonnes of machinery flying towards him at several hundred miles per hour
(yes they're estimations)
with his mind..
Now as much as i've tried, i just cant seem to stop random cars while there driving, with a telepathic effort.
Hence there being a difference between the rules of a real world and the rules of a program / matrix.
The only way i can see this being any other way would be if the WB's decided to ruin their storyline and give neo super human powers, or maybe JUST maybe it was there destiny / programming to stop at that precise time, or maybe even an intervention from one of the 'good programs'.
i hope this stops all the
'there is no second matrix, its still the real world, neo is the one and he can do what he pleases.'
posts ;)
Originally posted by fahn
I think that Persephone may be the mother of the matrix. She is going to be in the third film and the architect says that the mother of the matrix was a program designed to study the human psyche. Persephone seemed to be playing some mind games (love and jealousy) with Neo and Trinity. And, why would Persephone betray her husband. If she's just a program she shouldn't experience jealousy or feel the need to have a kiss of love again. Then again she might not be, I'm just throwing out my theory here!
Thats a good theory but I think the Oracle is the mther of the Matrix. She is the one best associated with the human psyche and when the Architect says "please" he says that in reference to Neo's name for her which is the "Oracle."
-I've seen this movie 4 times :) and honestly I don't know what to think. I don't think they would use the Matrix over Matrix idea because that shows there is no definate ending. This would anger some just as it would if Neo just woke up at the end. I feel a concrete ending is more satisfying and they will just have Neo's power transferring to the Real World. That's my best guess.
Noone is considering the Merovingian, the Keymaker & 'friends'...
I found some nice theory:
http://www.forum-anbieter.de/matrix/beitrag_1970__20.htm
(Scroll down a bit, it's the longest post - and the only English one)
Though I don't know if I want to believe this :P
Let's hope the WBs come with something we really didn't expect...
godisturbed
05-28-03, 10:54 AM
. he chooses the door that dooms all of mankind
why does that door doom all of mankind? I honestly cant remember because I had exams to study for this week. Or you just mean dooms Zion?
Observer
05-28-03, 12:12 PM
Wow, I?m really glad I found this Matrix forum. The discussions and ideas have been so interesting and insightful. I?ve also read around and found articles and essays about Gnosticism, Christianity, Greek Mythology, Buddhism, Sociology, Media Theory, Postmodern Philosophy and many more ideas and theories that the movie has spawned. This is why I cringe a little bit when I hear people claim that they ?fully understand? a movie like this. The thing I love most about the Matrix is that it is so complex as to resist full understanding. It is this very resistance that is another window into some of the themes and ideas presented in it. I think we can all agree that the movie is, in part at least, about the nature of reality and perception. The movie makes us understand this implicitly as we watch it unfold and are confused and challenged by it?s complexity.
Some posters have mentioned that certain people may not like the movie because they ?don?t understand it.? This implies that there is only one ?secret code? in the movie, and if you don?t crack it your left out in the cold watching another action movie and not ?appreciating? its deeper meanings. But isn?t this LACK of understanding of the same nature as Neo?s confusion, Neo?s quest for truth? The movie makes us question our understanding of what is going on, just as Neo is forced to question his own reality. What is it that Morpheus says? All your life you?ve sensed that something is wrong, something you can?t quite put your finger on? The ?reality? of the movie is also shifting, contradictory and untrustworthy, just like reality itself. I don?t dare predict what?s going to ?happen? in part three, but I have no doubt that I will have just as many questions as answers at the end.
There?s also this idea of the subjective nature of reality. No two people understand the world in exactly the same way, just as no two people understand this, or any movie in the same way. For a Christian, its about Christianity, for a postmodern philosopher (guilty!), it?s about Baudrillard, and for an adolescent (guilty, at heart), it?s a kick-ass action flick. But these are all ?legitimate? understandings of the movie, one neither deeper nor shallower than the next. In life, we are creatures of limited means who process a huge array of inputs at lightning speed every day. We?re inundated with religion, science, technology, nationalism, politics, social life, love--everything in reality! And a lot of it is beyond our understanding, and almost all of it comes through imperfect or highly controlled media, and a lot of it is downright lies, we know. Heck, even the brainiest brainiac like Einstein reached the conclusion that reality cannot be ?contained? in our tiny little heads. Know what an egghead scholar would call these things, these stories, these realities that are thrown at us every day? Matricies! A matrix of matricies! If we understand Neo?s zapping of the robots at the end of the movie as evidence that he is still ?inside? the Matrix, then we can see that in the film, too, there is no way that Neo can ever be truly ?free? of the Matrix, just as we can never know the ?truth? about everything we hear and see and think every day.
In fact, if we?re not confused by the movie, and think we have all the answers (or if we convince ourselves that Keanu Reeves is a good actor! JK) then the Matrix has us beaten. And I guess if all we see is another action movie it has us beaten, too (Yes, I?ve just contradicted what I said earlier--must be a glitch in the Matrix). Once we stop questioning the film (or reality) we are counted among the ranks of the 99+ percent of people upon whom the Matrix ?works?--we?ve metaphorically ?accepted? the Matrix. The only freedom we have is an understanding that we are never truly free of this manufactured, mediated, imperfect reality.
Part of the reason why Neo is a hero to me, is not that he has the ability to destroy the Matrix completely, but that he knows that SOMETHING is wrong, and he choses to struggle against it, to try to find out as much as he can, not to accept the kind of reality that he is being force-fed. And to CHANGE it in the best way he knows how, for better or for worse. Again, we don?t know what?s going to happen, and neither does Neo. But even if we know we will never reach our ultimate ?freedom? from the simulated reality that we all live in, it is in the struggle to understand, to question what we see and accept as truth on a daily basis, even if it causes you pain or hardship, that true heroism lies. It?s better than being one of the 99+ percent who?ve given up. So many of us just sit in front of our TVs like so many zombies and accept everything at face value, as long as it doesn?t threaten our security or well being. Then, we are as controllable as one of the human batteries in the film. We do our jobs without question and provide the ?battery power? that feeds the Matrix. We?ve all, to some degree, heard that little voice that Morpheus describes, telling us that something ?isn?t quite right? with the world. It is only the few, the -1 percent, who heroically listen to that voice, and begin to ask questions, even if it does threaten their well being, or even their sanity. It?s called bravery. To attempt to reach Zion, even if it is only an (orgiastic!) dream. After all, if reality is subjective, then we, just like Neo and his comrades, have the power to alter it. The power comes from awareness. So, take control of your own life?s ?battery power?. Keep looking for new ideas (in life and in movies). Write them down. Post them, share them with your friends, scream them out your window at the top of your lungs. Think for yourself. Question authority. Question reality. Fight the Matrix.
catyears
05-28-03, 01:13 PM
hopefully the Wachowski brothers dazzle us with more intriguing story lines for the 3rd installment. I love talking about this movie and cant stop checking out the forums to see what new ideas you guys have. It makes the movie all that much better!
Ok, first as aspen says there are two.., let's say simulations, but they are not parallel, they are recursive, recursion occurs when a specific funtion calls it self, recursion is a key element here.
A more real example? Neo and the Architect, remember all the monitors in the background?, and sometimes when there was a take on Neo's face zooming, it looked like it was comming from one of the monitors, the same effect happened when Neo was captured by Anderson in the "The Matrix".
And still the question: what is the Matrix? Have you ever searched it's definition on a dictionary? Matrix Definition (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=matrix)
Interesting isn't?
Ok, down to the hypothesis:
There is no spoon. There is no Matrix, a real one, a physical one.
The Matrix and the world we see in the movie resides within a computer as a whole, Zion and the Matrix are part of an huge experiment build to create the ultimate AI, a full replica of how the human brain works including feelings, a.k.a Neo, or should we say Neo v6.0
If you look at the characters every one has one objective, one purpose, Morpheus: Fullfil the prophecy, Trinity: Neo's partner, Smith: Kill Neo.
Zion is meant to provide, cultivate and teach feelings for Neo, to fear, to be compasionate, to be humble, to love.
Support material:
Architect setting the choices:
1) Save the human race
2) Save your truth love
If the Neo chooses 1), game is over, he fails the final test, he is not fully "human" because he would be following the logic, not the feelings.
Sure the Matrix and the whole experiment it's reloaded to find Neo v7.0; a new generation begins, (pretty much like a Generic Algorithm works, that uses and mutates "solutions" from previous runs to find the closest and best solution to a problem) and the next "run" of the program begins to find the next Neo. Also on versioning, a software starts as Beta or v0.0, so v6.0 is in fact the seventh version, therefore fullfilling the cabalistic number.
Smith's envy:
Smith is clearly and AI agent (also and agent in computer jargon is a piece of code or program that can run in the background, without interactivite with a user and still has an objective), under a seek and destroy mission, Neo; initially (The Matrix) he's unaware of what's Neo really all about, but when he is "defeated" by Neo, he became aware of what's really going on, what's the nature of Matrix, and he wants to be the ultimate finding of the search for the
ultimate AI.
When he bumps with the other Agent, and the other Agent goes: "You", meaning the Smith is considered it self a thread.
He became a "virus" or at least he learned how to act like one, how to infect other programs, take control over them and make them run its code, "Me, Me, Me", he tried on Neo, but he resisted.
Smith tells Neo that he set him free, that he's realized what's really going on.
When he tells Neo that he hasn't realized what's the Matrix all about, "Exercesing all your muscles, but not the must important", refering to the brain and that Neo hasn't figure it all out.
Revolution trailer, Final fight against Smith to see who's the winner.
Neo's "powers" outside:
Zion is the simulation of the real word, and The Matrix is a system within, Neo is capable of bend and change the rules of the enviroment where he resides, he just realized of that for Zion, but Zion has more strict controls, remember Neo falling during the jump, he needed to adjust his mind, he needs to do that again.
Zion is more "real", Bane/Smith cutting his hand, is Smith experimenting what's to be a "human", and what's to be in a more restrictive environment where he has no control or more "permissions", were he cann't infect other programs.
Merovingian and Persephone:
Merovingian has survived many Neo's, he also is another version, remember the guy saying that he has knows a lot of languages, that's because on each run the guy is different, from a different country.
Persephone is there to test Neo.
I think that some characeter are in fact humans, interacting with the system from the outside; the Oracle and her bodyguard, they are both humans, the Oracle logs in only when necessary to give the assigments, she tells Morpheus that he would find The One, and to keep away from Niobe, she tells Trinity that she would know who is The One because she will fall in love with him, he knows everything because he knows how the whole system works. Maybe she even designed the whole thing.
The "flaw" to the Matrix is Neo, it's among the 1% of the AI that could have the skills to really learn and evolve, to be an AI that'll above any other AI agent within the whole simulation, and everyone that knows what's going on wants to avoid his success because that would imply the end of the experiment, the end of the search, the end of all of them.
The Merovingian was one the first AI to be created, but it's flawed he's not the ultimate AI, also Persephone, the difference Persephone wants the game to ve over, that's why she wanted a last kiss.
See ya...
Hallo, new here, but after reading I wanted to post my ideas:
1)I believe that the Oracle is the Mother of the matrix, it certainly seems like it, and at least this we can infer from the conversation. However, I wouldnt say no that maybe Persephona is the mother.
2)I really hope that there isnt a second matrix, but its the only idea we can think of form what we saw, but, if it was that way, why not just kill the one by unplug, they already know who he is, and also, why dont unplug everyone!!
3)The French guy conversation it is also very important, everyone should pay attention from what he says, he is just telling them, that everything has been set, they just have to do it. "Choice is an illusion created by those with power"
4) If Persephona comes to be the mother of the Matrix, the Oracle is really kind of a rebel program, but, if the matrix is destroyed, all this rebel programs, where do they go?
5) The chinese guy says when Neo asks him who he is: I protect that which matters most.- What is that? any ideas?
I have more ideas, or better, questions, but I have to go!!
catyears
05-28-03, 04:23 PM
the guy who says "I protect that which matters most" I believe is protecting the Oracle. Maybe she is the Mother of the Matrix.
first: sabo. i like your idea most. i guess everybody else, including me, stucked at the idea that after all this is about human race. maybe it isn't :)
second: there are a few things that maybe important:
- merovigian - there was a dynasty in france with the same name, the so called "lazy kings". it is believed that they considered themselves the followers of Jesus. why? because of the controversy 'sang royale' - 'saint graal', it is believed that maria magdalena carried Jesus's child. the most fascinating thing is that these guys had their place in the abbey of Sion. ring a bell? sion - zion? anyway if interested you'll surely find aspects of this theory on net. also there was a movie on discovery regarding this.
- persephone: daughter of zeus (the supreme god in greek mythology) and demeter (goddess of the harvest, fertility) and she was the wife of hades (god of death)
i'm pretty stuck with these meanings, still i don't think that their names are random. i believe that somehow all of these lead to a single conclusion: all of them are somehow related with each other, that is they have the same 'father'. but i reached this conclusion on weird ways and i'm not sure about this.
At first I was convinced the names of the characters had quite a bit of significance (Morpheus, for example, one of the sons of Hypnos, the Greek God of Sleep), but after the second film there appears to be no real order to them. Persephone, for example, does not quite seem to fit...unless perhaps there's more to her than we've yet learned.
I think they may have just randomly chosen names out of a textbook on Greek Mythology this time 'round.
Caitlyn
05-28-03, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by LoS
merovigian - there was a dynasty in france with the same name, the so called "lazy kings". it is believed that they considered themselves the followers of Jesus. why? because of the controversy 'sang royale' - 'saint graal', it is believed that maria magdalena carried Jesus's child. the most fascinating thing is that these guys had their place in the abbey of Sion. ring a bell? sion - zion? anyway if interested you'll surely find aspects of this theory on net. also there was a movie on discovery regarding this.
Historically the Frankish Kings who ruled in the 5th (?) century were from the Merovingian dynasty… according to the legend, the Merovingians were direct descendants of the Nephilims or “Fallen Angels” …
LoS:
I found this page The Merovingian Mythos (http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/merovingian-twyman.htm), this kinds of support the idea behind that "The Merovingian" (since we don't know his name, he's always refered as "The Merovingian" but no specfic name) is old really old, and has a lot of power, maybe from the very first runs of the Matrix.
Also when Persephone takes Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity with the key maker, she stops in a room and starts mumbling something about older versions of the Matrix and so on an so forth, take the gun, and says the gun has a "silver bullet", I can't remember the whole dialog, and I can't tell if during the dialog she was referring to Neo and Co or the guys in the room, also the guys were watching OLD horror movies, some more myths in the equation, warewolves, vampires. :confused:
Persephone, basically she was abducted by Hades, she eventually felt in love with him, and married him, but her mother Demeter was furious and sent cold and wind to the earth (winter). Eventually Herakles negotiated with Hade and Demeter and Persephone spend some time here some time there.
So? It could be that Persephone was abducted by The Merovingian, felt in love with him but now she's all tired of everything?
I also believe that the names are significant:
Morpheus: God of dreams, who has being awaking everybody from the Matrix lately?
Trinity: The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It also means 3, 3 is also a cabalistic number among the catholic religion.
Niobe: Eternal symbol mourning.
Neo: It means NEW. New version? :suspicious:
Ok, now I am back
I have seen the new posts, now, if the Oracle is the mother of the Matrix, why would she be the "that which matters most", because we have to interpretations to the conversation with the architect:
when the Neo replys that the intuitive programm is the Oracle, the architect says: "please" which can mean two things:
1) The oracle is not a suitable name for a programm which is not bound by the boundaries of perfection.
2) A programm like the oracle can never be the Mother of the matrix
If she is, the mother, what we take sure of this conversation is that in either way the Oracle is not important for the machines, so, it is not that which matter most.
Unless there is a disident faction within the Machines that wants a cooperation between humans and machines, something like a no-discrimination association.
I really dunno, but I need this till Revolutions comes out...
iamtheone
05-28-03, 08:12 PM
:sick: I'm sorry, but if I find out that Zion is still alive, I will not see the third movie. The may sound like I'm childishly holding onto my theory, but logic is logic.
Hundreds of thousands of sentinals sent to destroy...what? As I mentioned before, the fleet was Zion's only real hope against these metal critters, but the fleet went dead with the early EMP. It seems only the Logos is still alive (play the game).
Of course, we all seem to be forgetting one thing--Zion is only ONE of the human colonies underground. No others were mentioed, but Tank or Dozer said specifically that it was "one of the last," meaning there are still freed minds. This could explain the shots of the Logos flying around even though its charging station at Zion is lost.
By the way, I love the theories floating around about a Matrix within a Matrix. It seems to be a riddle within a riddle, doesn't it?
"Curiouser and curiouser..."
iamtheone
05-28-03, 08:43 PM
Well, buddy, I hate to insult people like you, since there seems so little for you in the world. Your reference to Superman exemplifies your outdated view of the SciFi world. (Actually, I could not tell if you are a fan of SciFi or not, but rest assured that the true Superman storyline fits quite nicely into the genre.)
There is a problem with ultra-high tech special effects these days. People often either get caught up in them and ignore the rest of the movie (dude, the special effects were tight...) or they tune out the movie because they cannot see past the stereotype of flashy films of pyrotechnics and CG (ie, The Matrix). Some people fit into both categories, forming an amusing group who enjoys movies like ConAir and The Rock (tepid storylines in both), but becomes uncomfortable when action movies actually exhibit plot structure and character development.
Some movies truly have it all, sir. It is up to the viewer to catch it. Don't just watch the shiny objects.
what if actually they weren't awakened when they ingested the red pill BUT they went in a deeper dream? there are two things:
1) morpheus - god of dreams as stated before. a god of dreams fit closely with getting someone asleep rather than awakening someone.
2) we never saw what happend to neo's body after he ingested the pill (in the matrix, cause in the 'real world' he woke up in the cocoon). oh, it was that beautiful water-mirror effect but did his body dissapear?! maybe he went into a coma when he ingested the pill, he began dreaming deeper and actually thought he was awake. and now he is in a coma again. maybe all the matrices happen at once. this could explain the TV sets in architect room. maybe they didn't show the probabilities of neo's reaction that the matrix has thought of, but maybe they showed what was happening at the same moment on other levels of the matrix. or i'm wrong again :). but that's not news :)
another thing: every important character, in fact... almost all characters have religious names from different mythologies. except the operators which have computer-related names: link, cypher, tank(?!). anyway the operators were so far nothing but bridges between worlds.
oh, and even the ship's name sounds mythical. almost like the babylonian king nabuccodonosor.
i don't think they are random and i don't think that they have time in revolution to explain all aspects of the movie, maybe it will be just a few hints more.
sabo: actually it can be a different explanation for neo's name: the anagram for "one". and herakles in greek mythology was like "the one" in any other religions. he was the son of zeus, half god - half human thanks to his mother, but still a mortal. he also was the one who fought gods and defended the humans.
Fish of Tuna
05-29-03, 10:45 AM
Sorry for being picky but Cypher wasnt really a computer based name but short for Lucifer the Devil - Evil as he was trying to betray/kill Neo and the rest of the people in the first film. But with all that has come up in the second film I'm not sure if it has as much significance any more.
blibblobblib
05-29-03, 11:47 AM
THE ORACLE - My opinion is that when the artchitect says that she is the mother of the Matrix he is just speaking matephorically. If you listen to what he says, he says that she was a programme designed to understand the human spirit. She was the programme designed to understand how humans think and their reactions. She was the programme that helped the robots understand love and the reason that humans needed to rebel, so he says that she is The Mother of the Matrix becuase she is almost the mother to the humans, she understands them and wants to help them, as this is what her programme was designed to do - its her purpose. :yup:
And i still dont thin there is another Matrix - it just doesnt seem right.
Originally posted by LoS
what if actually they weren't awakened when they ingested the red pill BUT they went in a deeper dream? there are two things:
1) morpheus - god of dreams as stated before. a god of dreams fit closely with getting someone asleep rather than awakening someone.
2) we never saw what happend to neo's body after he ingested the pill (in the matrix, cause in the 'real world' he woke up in the cocoon). oh, it was that beautiful water-mirror effect but did his body dissapear?! maybe he went into a coma when he ingested the pill, he began dreaming deeper and actually thought he was awake. and now he is in a coma again. maybe all the matrices happen at once. this could explain the TV sets in architect room. maybe they didn't show the probabilities of neo's reaction that the matrix has thought of, but maybe they showed what was happening at the same moment on other levels of the matrix. or i'm wrong again :). but that's not news :)
Ok, usually movies/scripts/stories in general are divided in 3 parts: Introduction, the main story and a conclusion. Don't you think that if the whole movie was based on the fact that the red pill would just make neo dream or fall into a coma would be stupid? I would be so dissapointed if in the end it came to that.
The recurring matrix theory is good, but at the end it would just make things more complicated for the viewer, its only logic that the plot has to get simpler as we approach the end of the trilogy.
OH! about the monitors in the Architech room, I just think that was a special effect. :cool:
The Red Pill doesn't awake you, if you remember the dialog in the firt movie Morpheus, I'm almost sure that he explains that the objective of the pill is to pinpoint its location on the Matrix.
If that's true, the red pill he receives from the Oracle is to tell Smith where they are, isn't? :eek:
The names were deliberate: check this article on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9903/31/matrix/) it's really good.
Back later with some more ideas ...
catyears
05-30-03, 04:04 PM
thats possible, but he never actually eats the red candy I dont think, he takes it from the Oracle but doesnt eat it. see what u did, now i have to go see the movie again, luckily im off today. see ya!
cool article, thanks.
I feel awful, just to think that I'm forcing some to actually go and see it again!!! It fills me of guilt :p
But lets face it: It's inevitable... you must go ;)
Have fun!!
Originally posted by sabo
I feel awful, just to think that I'm forcing some to actually go and see it again!!! It fills me of guilt...
:laugh: Hey, Forcing anyone to see this is nothing to feel guilty about. Matrix 2 is one of the best films of the year.... and the most anticipated film of the year as well! ;)
Originally posted by Sully
Don't you think that if the whole movie was based on the fact that the red pill would just make neo dream or fall into a coma would be stupid?
OH! about the monitors in the Architech room, I just think that was a special effect. :cool:
well, i didn't say it isn't stupid (it's my idea after all :P)... i just wanted to express my idea that maybe, maybe their way through matrices wasn't actually on the way out, but on the way in... and deeper. and sabo is right too, now i remember that the red pill was for tracking.
and maybe the red candy was serving the same purpose. and considering that soon after the oracle ate it the smith appeared maybe it is so.
as for the monitors, i truly believe that they were there for more than special effects.
Originally posted by LoS
and maybe the red candy was serving the same purpose. and considering that soon after the oracle ate it the smith appeared maybe it is so.
I'm thinking it was just a clever nod to the first film.
Originally posted by LoS
as for the monitors, i truly believe that they were there for more than special effects.
Eh? You believe they hold some story-related significance?
SonicYawns
05-31-03, 07:15 AM
Like the movie or not, it's good to see so many different theories and opinions about it. Here's my own humble take on it...
---RAVE SCENE---
Most people say it's too long (I agree!) but I really think it's done to emphasize the completely different worlds of humans and machines. Everything that Agent Smith said he hated about having to exist with humans (in the original movie) was shown here, and since the scene stuck out like a sore thumb in an otherwise high-tech-theme I have to believe it was done on purpose.
Also, did you catch the special effects used? Notice how fast the camera is panning while the people dance in slow-motion...
---THE AGENTS---
Purpose: Seek out and eliminate all system abnormalities (like Neo, or the Twins) as well as out-dated programs (which now includes Smith).
Neo: "Hmm... Upgrades." Smith didn't receive an upgrade, which makes him an inferior program and thus a target or his former compadres.
---SMITH---
Formerly Agent Smith. His perception of the matrix changed when he was defeated because he was beaten in such a way that he *knew* was impossible. He now fully understands how everything in the matrix is actually code, which he uses to his advantage by replacing other programs with his own coding.
---THE MEROVINGIAN (AND COHORTS)
An old (around since earlier matrices - "I've survived your predecessors and I'll survive you!"), intelligent and deadly program who holds the Keymaker.
He also commands several lethal bodyguard programs including the Twins and even a couple vampires or werewolves (Persephone shoots and kills one with a silver bullet.) The Twins are another target of the agents because they are an abnormality in the matrix (remember when the Twin shot at the agent on the roof of the car?).
----KEYMAKER
Targeted by the agents because he is viewed to be an outdated program. More importantly he alone has access to numerous areas in the matrix that could not otherwise be reached - a powerful tool if Neo were to get a hold of him...
----THE ARCHITECT (AND HIS ROOM)
He reveals that he created the matrix with the aid of a program that was designed to understand and predict human reactions (the Mother of the matrix). He also says that since the matrix couldn't be perfect (people rejected perfection) abnormalities like Neo would occur. The system is designed to find such abnormalities and direct the to the source (via programs like the Oracle). Soon after reaching the source the simulation will come to an end, only to be reset again.
---THE ORACLE
NOT the mother of the matrix, but rather one of many programs designed to send the One back to the Source where s/he is no longer a threat to the system.
---BANE
Infected by Smith. This suggests 3 things...
1.) Smith has found a way to inhabit actual humans (which may seem possible because most humans have hardware implants in their head for connecting to the matrix)
2.) Smith exists in Bane because Bane is part of another simulation, or another matrix. This would make sense since Neo was able to stop the Sentennels in the *real world*
3.) Bane is a traitor, similar to Cypher who works with the machines.
---OVERALL
Speculate until the cows come home, but nobody's going to truly understand Matrix Reloaded until they see Matrix Revolutions. It's an open-ended riddle which cannot be absolutely solved with the data given.
SonicYawns
05-31-03, 07:23 AM
Just to be clearer - by comparing the Twins with Neo and labeling both as "abnormalities" I am not suggesting that the Twins are actually real people like Neo, nor am I saying that Neo is a program like them. Rather, they, like Neo, are forms of disruption within the matrix which make them targets for the agents.
Also - the tv screens in the Arhchitect's room show the various predicted responses that Neo would give (which are being generated by the Mother of the matrix, who is the program that was designed to read and understand human responses). That's why the camera seems to zoom into one of the TVs whenever Neo makes a decision. It's also why the architect states "Denial is the most predictable human response" while Neo (and all the predicted Neo reactions) are showing various forms of denial about humanity being destroyed.
Laura22
06-01-03, 02:36 AM
Wow! You guys are so talkie. Me, it's simple I like "The Matrix Reloaded" because of the awsome special effects and the kick ass action. Hey, has anyone heard that "The Matrix Reloaded" is coming out on the IMAX theaters. I think that may mean I'll be seeing it for a thrid time. Again as Mr. Matrix says, "Wow."
I've seen the "rave scene" just like a chatarsis...
It's there to tell that humankind is both body ad spirit.
Neo in the first movie got a kind of enlightment, and it was all in is own mind, this is the other side. To balance the libra.
We can't reach light only by our spirit, we are meat and blood, and the magic is made of meat blood and of blood.
A sort of tantric sex, to remember that everything in this plane of reality must be balanced.
Yin/Yang, Love/Hate, Achitect/Oracle, Jedi/Sith, Body/Soul...
... and when we've experienced both the sides we can choose or not.
(for someone there's no choice, but this is another story...)
Originally posted by Morfeo
I've seen the "rave scene" just like a chatarsis...
It's there to tell that humankind is both body ad spirit.
Neo in the first movie got a kind of enlightment, and it was all in is own mind, this is the other side. To balance the libra.
We can't reach light only by our spirit, we are meat and blood, and the magic is made of meat blood and of blood.
A sort of tantric sex, to remember that everything in this plane of reality must be balanced.
Yin/Yang, Love/Hate, Achitect/Oracle, Jedi/Sith, Body/Soul...
... and when we've experienced both the sides we can choose or not.
(for someone there's no choice, but this is another story...)
Yeah...sure...but Zion is just another part of the matrix, so the mind is the only thing they have control over, and even that is being manipulated by the matrix to a pretty strong degree.
(If you don't conform to the "Zion is another part of the Matrix" theory then please explain the spoon to Kong.)
I told my theory some post before: is that Zion could be the real world and Neo is going to receive enlightment even in the real world, and for this he's different from di other 5 ...
However the scene is only a metaphor, even if Zion is in the matrix, just to remeber that we are meat.
catyears
06-01-03, 01:53 PM
its already out at the IMax theater
wow, a woman who liked it for the action parts, whoa!
Maybe they consider abnormalities to every single entity that doesn't follow the rules of fullfills its objective; "human" or not "human".
random thought/theory:
Have you ever consider that whole thing its a huge online game, with real actual humans just having fun figthing some really awsone AI?
I stick to the idea that world hast'n being destroyed and it's a huge amaizing/realistic simulation with one single objective, AI refinement.
Or a simulation to predict what could happend if AI figths againts the humans, I don't know...
Later !!!
Originally posted by catyears
its already out at the IMax theater
Depends on where you live.
splittingatoms
06-04-03, 02:12 AM
hello out there.
let me start off by saying that i liked this movie.i liked the fight scenes.liked the car scene.hated the rave.hated that roy jones jr. was in the movie.lol.but over all alright movie.ill buy the dvd to watch over and over like i have with the first...also one more thing that i didnt like..they gave all the other people in the movie damn near the same powers as neo which i think sucked ass..it looked like anybody could hold their own with an agent..just my opinion..and you know what they say about opinions lol..later all
catyears
06-04-03, 02:28 PM
Trinity was getting her ass handed to her by the agent in the opening and closing scene before she "died". Morpheus was also getting beaten to a pulp by the agent in the chase scene. Other than that, it was Neo doing all the dirty work.:furious:
And noone used any powers that Neo would use. You may need to see it again, but thats not a bad thing!
But both of them were fighthing agents, before everybody ran; the only one that fought an agent on the first movie was morpheus, and was to distract him and get Neo out.
I'm not saying that they can do what Neo cans, but they see more confident now.
Also with the twins they tried to fight against them but at the end they ran off.
downgrade88
06-04-03, 09:52 PM
yea, but see morpheus had to fight the agent because he had to protect the keymaker. And trinity had no choice but to fight because she ran into the agent and really had nowhere to go until he threw her through a wall (i think).
Fish of Tuna
06-05-03, 11:12 AM
Dis any one else see the "Matrix" as a metaphor for capitalism. I dont know if the Wachovskis are socialist or not, but the whole matrix has you trapped, slave to the system, rage against the machine in the closing credits of both films. Also in the first film when Morpheous is saying to Neo "the matrix is a veil used to blind you from the truth" "What truth" could apply to the whole media thing that there's only 6 media companys in the world owning all the newspapers so everything is censored to some degree. The Matrix could also be a very extreme version of globalization. Any one else see capitalism in the matrix?
I see the relations on the plot more related to myths and religion, than to capitalism.
Let's see they got a USD 300M budget, they signed a huge contract for the games as well; they will get a % from profits beyond the amount of the budget, they don't seem to be acting like socialists, they look pretty capitalist to me :)
Menelien
06-05-03, 01:51 PM
wow, a woman who liked it for the action parts, whoa! That's cliche of you... I'm a teenage girl who loved the action parts, doesn't mind blood as long as it's not pointless, and does not rave over male actors (now that's unstereotypical;) ), but mostly I loved the movie for certain pieces that seemed to make it more human than the first: the scene with the Oracle, the bit with Trinity falling, some of the scene with the Merovingian, most certainly the scene with the architect, and a few others. As for fighting, I thought that the car chase scene was great though a bit drawn out, the one where Neo was fighting Seraph was amazing too (as the guy who plays Seraph really does know martial arts, and was even more realistic), and the twins were more real seeming than I thought they would be, but the part where he's fighting all of the Smiths is pretty much pointless, at least till he pulls the pole out of the ground. Overall, I liked the Matrix Reloaded some more than The Matrix, but the first one still suffers many rerounds in my DVD player...
-Menelien
catyears
06-05-03, 03:28 PM
it was actually a compliment considering most women like dramas and other such flicks. sorry if that is stereotypical, but isnt it the truth?
i wont let it happen again.;)
Alright, haven't read everything everyone's written i'm afraid - but i thought it was a shame some people belittled some of the "philosophising" in the film (although hell, we need the closure of the last film to decide if any of it really makes any sense).
I thought the brothers' attempt to bring pertinant ideas into the mainstream via kick-ass action was highly respectable - even if they've upped the ante in this one to the point that everone in the cinema where i was was stunned into "what-the-f***-was-that-about" silence. (whereas the first had analogies everyone could get their teeth into - simple and compact while still allowing for multiple interpretations. I go with the idea that the matrix does stand in some ways for control via the information-control of the powerful [i.e. capitalism et al to an extent], as well as an analogy for maya or whatever that "veil of illusion" idea is called - is it in Hindu beliefs or Buddist - I've forgotten everything it seems)
Anyway - i thought the best bits were:
-The "We're-dependant-on-technology-now" speech in Zion (so let's balance up the good and the bad of the modern[ising] world. Just as they later counsel balancing up the good and the bad in human nature -suggested possibly by the Oracle i think, amongst others - french bloke perhaps represent the over-comforting of the ego seen in Siddartha's second phase i.e. the life of the buddha etc),
-The intriguing "rebellions" of old programs - and Smith's mutation (uncontrolled/expected by the Architect)- and indeed the Architects spiel about a consistant system needing an anomaly (which itself can be predicted - but prediction theory's only as good as your "waveform" - anything outside your knowledge is going to skew your guess. Smith seems to represent this)
So basically, i take the main message to be - both our own natures plus technology giving us the power to extend the reach of both our best and worst potentials are things we desperately need to address in the modern world.
As a "for instance" you might want to look at what the good people at the Institute of Science in Society are trying to do about the highly dubious practice of genetic manipulation in our food supplies.
Sorry that was so long - keep on "fighting" (tho perhaps not in those skin-tight pants. They might cause static build up ;)
catyears
06-06-03, 04:00 PM
dont know about that last post, but...
for anyone who is a nut about the matrix, you need to see the animatrix. alot of it is just background info on the matrix universe, but a couple episodes actually explain very much about the matrix reloaded.
remember the kid that's always bugging neo and trinity? 1 episdoe explains where he came from and another episode bridges the gap between the matrix and the matrix reloaded.
two thumbs up!
I just saw the Matrix Reloaded and my review of it can be encapsulated in the following word: "Wh . . . ????!!!" :eek:
Seriously, though, it had it's moments and was entertaining in its way--great action sequences and nice touches of humor and intrigue. But the philosophizing went way over the top, in my opinion. I went in looking for some mindless entertainment and ended up coming out feeling as if I had sat through a 2 hour Philosophy lecture (with some action and adventure thrown in for good measure)! Anyway, it was fun, in its way!
Originally posted by Fish of Tuna
"What truth" could apply to the whole media thing that there's only 6 media companys in the world owning all the newspapers so everything is censored to some degree. The Matrix could also be a very extreme version of globalization. Any one else see capitalism in the matrix?
if the 6 companies story is true (and it might be) AND if matrix reffers to them how come the film actually reached the cinemas?! don't you think that they would have censored it? and maybe rage against the machine was chosen for their name... rage against the machine.
Fish of Tuna
06-08-03, 05:03 PM
Da captitalism thing is a very loose theory, and da censorship thing gets overriden by the fact the film is makin shizzle loads of money. and why would Rupert Murdoch give a fcuk about sum sci-fi-action film any hoo im sure hes got better things to do wit his time/yatch/private jets/evil empire...
Sexy Celebrity
06-09-03, 07:14 PM
I absolutely loved The Matrix Reloaded!
I finally saw it today and it's a hit. I understand all it's trying to do because I see all the Gnosticism in it and that's something I happen to study. I loved the "rave" scene, as you put it -- I didn't think of it as a rave. It looked more like a Pagan type festival - loved it, loved it, loved it. This movie is fabulous. I think it's far superior than the first Matrix.
However, it had a sucky ending... I do not like the last thing we see in the flick. The big CLIFFHANGER. The idea is good.... what they did with it is not.
This is a must-see movie. And that's all I'll say now.
catyears
06-09-03, 08:17 PM
thats the point of a cliffhanger. makes you wanting more and more...
Sexy Celebrity
06-09-03, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by catyears
thats the point of a cliffhanger. makes you wanting more and more...
No, that's not the point! Can't believe you thought that. The cliffhanger sucked. The cliffhanger almost ruined the movie for me. I mean, the way it was done, it should have made me gasp. But the whole setting up of the cliffhanger.... and the person involved.... was horrible. Absolutely un-shocking. As Holden said earlier, there was no "envelope for part three". To me, it's the movie's biggest flaw. They used the preview for part three at the end of the credits (which I didn't stay for) as that envelope. Shame.
catyears
06-09-03, 08:58 PM
keep it up
LordSlaytan
06-09-03, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Sexy Celebrity
They used the preview for part three at the end of the credits (which I didn't stay for) as that envelope. Shame.
And that preview was a 1 minute joke!
Sexy Celebrity
06-09-03, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by catyears
keep it up
Wow. I'm impressed.
RedQueen83
06-13-03, 09:58 AM
I found that Matrix Reloaded was even better then the first now that the Characters are all developped it's now to the task at hand to save Zion.... I enjoyed it except I must say for the ending...
Those To be Concluded Endings piss me off..... I hate waiting for the ending cause now I have to wait another couple of months to go see the last one..
Just like the Lord of the Rings...
Things just start to Fall in Place and then bam you get sucker punched with an abrupt ending...
sucks very much....:frustrated:
catyears
06-13-03, 03:59 PM
you only have to wait a few months for the last installment. Doesn't anyone understand that they did it on purpose. That is the whole reason y the ending was that way. At least we dont have to wait as long as we do for Return of the King. Think positive, not negative.
RedQueen83
06-13-03, 08:23 PM
Return of the King..............mmmmmmmmmmmm need to see that I want to soo bad..... you know I love 2 of the Hobbits Accents in Real life Scottish very awsome... Can't wait
Actually I'm going to see 2 Fast 2 Furious....
Boyfriend wants to go see it....
I'd rather go see The Itailian Job... Maybe tommorrow night
:(
catyears
06-13-03, 10:20 PM
someone who loves movies like The Matrix and Lotr going to see 2Fast 2Furious. How disgraceful! Just kidding. Tell your boyfriend before you go, you know its gonna suck.
Originally posted by LordSlaytan
And that preview was a 1 minute joke!
WHAT???????????
RedQueen83
06-15-03, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by catyears
someone who loves movies like The Matrix and Lotr going to see 2Fast 2Furious. How disgraceful! Just kidding. Tell your boyfriend before you go, you know its gonna suck.
You know what I hate to say it but I found it better then the first one.... Mind you Paul Walker is still a big ass wuss and there was basically no reason for making another one it did have it's good and bad points.... I know I am a disgrace to the movie industry haha no but honestly I wouldn't pay to go see it again thats for sure.....
:nope:
frutkake
06-17-03, 12:01 PM
Just want to know what people think of these theories.
POSSIBLE SPOILERS
-Since Zion is part of the matrix, it means that smith can duplicate himself in Zion right?
- It seems to me that Smith wants to be the ONE. First of all he has no purpose, he's no longer an agent, since Neo 'freed' him so he now wants to take over the matrix which is why all the smiths were in the corridor of doors, just before Neo went to see the architect. Smith wanted to go see the architect, smith wanted to go through the door but he did'nt know which one it was, He needed the Keymaker.
What do you all think of that? Just a theory.
One more thing, not a theory just a complaint, why did'nt Neo destroy all the Smith's by 'breaking their code' like he did to Agent Smith at the end of part 1?
catyears
06-17-03, 12:08 PM
once Neo saved Smith, he was no longer an agent. he said that maybe he copied something from Neo(some code) when it happened, so maybe Neo cant do that to him anymore. I really dont know, just figured there was a change when Neo saved him and thats prob the reason.
Smith has become like a virus now it seems, outside of the Architect's control/realm of knowledge. He definitely said that he'd taken some code or something from Neo like Catyears said. And him aspiring to be "The One"/trying to get through the door etc all makes sense. I thought maybe he was being set up as the traditional bad-guy element and Neo's love-saves-the-day (and changes the Architect's predictions) as the good guy element
(well duh!)
...but...
I was wondering if his virus status meant he might be acting as a link between matrix and zion-world/reality (I don't reckon Zion etc. is an extended/another matrix. I reckon the old Archi just said that for the matrix to run smoothly it needs some humans to become aware of the matrix, breakout, get caught and start again. Maybe it occupies the more troublesome/talented ones like neo, trinity etc??)
Basically, Smith having slipped into that guys head, and yet still existing in the matrix, is allowing neo to somehow stay connected too and control the drone-things etc via that. Just a thought.
Finished.
Although here's some more thoughts...feel free to give up on me now if you want...
-Smith taking over that guy brings up mad points about the nature of his mutation - and whether the matrix's representation of his consciousness is similar enough to a human's to let him just slip in there.
-In fact how does the matrix "code"/represent human consciousness? The Architect's [Oracle's?] multiple predictions of neo's reactions on those little screens proved fallible ultimately - even when it narrowed him down to the either-or choice of the doors.
If code and consciousness are becoming parallel/inter-changeable in this films I can see why people think that's silly/prefer the matrix-within-a-matrix thing. But I still reckon the brothers are taking it in that direction.
Ok, ok, I'll stop now.
Any of that make sense?
kevinf_30
06-19-03, 07:08 PM
This movie was way too hyped up! I went into the movie theatre thinking that it could match the quality of the first movie.
I felt that all this movie was about:
a. Who could talk the longest
b. Who could float the longest
That's all the movie was about! Some of the action sequences were cool, but it just got repetitive half way through the movie.
Overall, if you were a fan of the first Matrix, go see this one just to get yourself filled in with the plotline.
catyears
06-19-03, 07:11 PM
but for the guy before him:
your ideas make sense, not sure what to think of Smith just yet and his connection with Neo. there def is one though, Smith said it himself. somehow they are connected and we only have to wait a few months to find out how. :D
anyway, keep the thoughts coming!
perfection
06-21-03, 11:50 PM
well all we can do now is wonder
I think Zion is another matrix
this is the only way he couldve stopped the sentials at the end
but first time I saw it I think the not only is smith part of Neo but Neo part of smith
What if the ship at the end sent out EMP and since Neo is now part machine mind went into a coma
thats why smith was in a coma also on the table also
but this is unlikely
I now think this
for the matrix to work properly no one has to know about the second matrix (except the oracle and the architect)
So the agents have to go about as normal and try to stop them. AS the Architect said Zion was destroyed 6 times and only the one can rewrite the other matrix and create a new zion in a different spot. Those making the system start over again. Smith was the one who triggered the EMP making the Machine army the ability to get the Zion.
Its all preplanned
but its different now
Neo didnt rewrite the code so now the computers relize you cant control humans. AS he pointed out there are methods of survival but withotu the second matrix the first one will crumble.
one more thing
in the trailer the oracle said you must confront him
then goes to a fight scene in Neo and Smith
so maybe if you destroy the main smith you kill them all
but were gonna have to wait for the next one
Beale the Rippe
06-22-03, 01:04 AM
Smith is the one.
So is Neo.
Neo imprinted himself on Smith, making them both the One.
Huge fight for dominance.
The End.
Fair play. They're both "The One" so between them they've managed to throw the matrix-runners. Then we get good versus evil, warring in a symbiotic way, ying and yang and all that.
Still, that's the cartoon story-line, what about the analogies behind it? Like smith representing the worst sides of technolgy (mixed with the worst sides of humanity now?) and neo the best sides of humanity making the best use of technology.
They could have some fun with all that- tho it'll probably end in a happy ending of some sort (maybe with arguments that blind faith, holistic-trust, unconditional love etc are as necessary/more positive than logical appraisal of the knowable and perceivable etc etc - thought processes that have brought about science without sense and competitive philosophies with no space for cooperation etc. These things need balancing, and perhaps they're getting a bit skewed in modern times)
I'm not a luddite, but I am wary of the accidental and deliberate god-wanna-be arrogances of some technology creators. Have a look at the Institute of Science in Society if you want to see some big-scale scientist/policy-makers who are worried about the same things (i.e. GM food in this case)
I came out with a garbled sentence in another mail which should have gone something like this: I think a core part of these films is the idea that...We need to seize humankind's best potentials and the best potentials of technology, while being fully aware of both our own and technologies failings. We are in a symbiotic relationship now - almost to the point that we forget about other balanced relationships - like the one's between us and our food, or us and our environment in general.
Ok, enough preaching. The best kung fu move is the defensive one - and the best mind the one that knows when it can't help but attack. Maybe. Ok, lied about stopping the pretension.
Nuff superlatives.
(Still reckon Zion is real world - death of humanity and therefore the power source is what AIs feared i tink. But it could be.)
Erm, alright. It's only a film.
Not a perfect film by any means. Just a brave film that tries to do lots of things at once.
Beale the Rippe
06-26-03, 11:58 PM
Whats up? Welcome to the forum. I'd like to see some more posts out of you Golgot!
Alright there? Everyone else seems to have disappeared. Not much of a debate at the mo.
What's your slant on the bro's intentions then?
I'm about blabbled-out at the moment. Only seen it once.
Beale the Rippe
06-27-03, 04:06 PM
I think they wanted to make a kick-behind action/sci-fi movie. Actually, I think after watching Dark City, they loved the plot, and thought they could make that into a kick-butt action/sci-fi movie by adding all sorts of elements and references from other movies. I think they succeeded.
What other movies do you like?
I haven't seen Dark City but I heard it's now considered the inferior cousin of things like Matrix and Existenz before it.
I'm just really intrigued by any references to "Maya"/the veil of illusion" in the Matrix etc i.e. buddhist/hindu philosophy that they may have blended in. I've got a feeling they're being exceptionally ambitious behind the glossy shine of their obvious love for retina-wrenching action.
For sure they've taken the action sequence to a new level with the highway scene (I thought the neo vs smith fight was a bit daft -despite loving kung fu sequences as a rule etc). What film references did they make?? You'll have to excuse me, my memory and retention of films is kind of scatty, and altho my friends have made sure i've been spoilt with a wide blend of mind-bending movies, i'm one of those that can never remember the film's name ten minutes later. Even so, no excuse, i didn't spot any parallels/tips-of-the-hat to films i've seen i don't think.
Trying to follow the plot and tutting at people who miss key issues is my normal foible.
Another foible is writing impulsive rants on the Iraq forum, so you may well not deign to dally with me now ;) In fact i daresay you'll be in the fore with some pertinent questioning of my fuzzy logic, if u can be bothered to read it all that is. I promise you it wasn't meant to offend, but more to provoke debate if anything.
Um, if you're still interested: other fave films (whose name's i can remember), would have to be things like:
-Brazil (Terry Gilliam),
-Pi (more deliciously involved pretention) and Requiem for a Dream,
-I'll throw "2001" in to keep the pretention rating up, even tho i don't think i've ever watched it in one sitting, but rather as three little films.
-um, dammit i can never rember the one's i really loved - they just seem to seep in and only rememerge with an occasional ripple across my consciousness when something disturbs them. Dammit.
-Well, Life of Brian, the bare bones presentation of the later 1984 film, all the Phillip K Dick conversions, Wag the Dog, Man Bites Dog, K-9 (only joking), and many others have all nibbled their niches in my noggin. And there's loads more, not to mention the raft of ****e you've got to alight on before you get to the good films (and hell, i love a **** movie too occasionally. You can always convince yourself you're learning how not to do it when you veg in front of one)
Um, I'll let you know if my brain-stem burps up anymore requiems for my fave films
Beale the Rippe
06-28-03, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Golgot
I haven't seen Dark City but I heard it's now considered the inferior cousin of things like Matrix and Existenz before it.
1. Dark City came out first, and the bulk of the plot for the Matrix came from this brilliant film.
2. If anything it's superior to The Matrix (IMO, but that isn't to say I don't love the Matrix, because I do).
3. See it, I think you'll enjoy it. (Don't expect an action movie, it is more of a plot centered,brilliant movie than it is a great action movie like the Martix) (That might've been misleading, there is almost no action).
Also look out for Equilibrium, which plays like 1984 mixed with Fahrenheit 451 while being a great action movie, and having a very moving plot. I loved that movie. I think you'll like it.
Some film references that immediately pop to mind from The Matrix are: Alice in Wonderland, Ghost in a Shell, 1984, and The Karate Kid. Although there are many, many more.
right right - alice, 1984, ghost in the shell etc [still haven't seen this one - gotta get round to it i hear. Sounds nice and involved]
The ideas are as much bookish as filmish tho i'd say. Not sure Matrix mimicks the film styles, but their ideas are definitely in there.
There's "looking-glass" shenangians going on, a dystopian set up and loads of techno-distrust, but do you reckon the Karate Kid gets a look in? Seems more like it's influenced by 70s to modern hong kong kung fu etc. Didn't see any wax-on wax-off sections ;)
Alright, i'm a pedant. Besides, stylistically the bros have done their own thing really, especially with direction.
[gah - have employed my own foot to kick me when i go on too long. Must stop]
Beale the Rippe
06-28-03, 02:57 PM
What upcoming movies are you looking forward to? Check some of the other sections.
catyears
06-28-03, 07:17 PM
ive been listening to you guys, u guys have some good thoughts and im all about the matrix movies so keep it coming(eventually you'll run out though).
What do u guys think about the theory that everyone is there for a reason(like Morpheus always says) but for the opposite reason that they all think. Morpheus, Trinity, the Oracle, etc... so that Neo follows in line like the others before him. and eventually Zion is destroyed. The anamoly is directed in every direction except the right one, so everything goes how it has before?????? Just like a line. I dont know what im talking about.
Oops. Laughed in spanish. Um. Classy catyears. Glad your still with us. Um, i have sort of run out - tho things like that spark memories of hanging threads...
i'm imagining human individuality is one of the "anomalies" that the matrix/architect/oracle has had to deal with, and these "chosen ones" are all extra anomilous or whatever in personality. Maybe their ancestors/past-parallels were the inquisitive/empowered element that brought down the first Matrix. i.e, now there is a pressure gauge system - the architect etc await the emergance of these alpha-humans, let them escape [but try to keep track of them] and then trap them into having to do it all again. They are important to the matrix somehow too then if this is the case?
Bler. Dunno wat i sayin either.
Dont reckon anomaly crew will be as self-destructively anomlyous in their behaviour as to kill themselves off, as you suggest. Makes for less than rip-rooting ending. [how many words did i just make up then?]
but that would be mad. Suggesting all variation eventually comes to a steady "one" line. The straight-line limits of euclydian geomtry (however you spell those words). Well, that'd be a bizarre old ending if they opted for that. We shall see.
Dammit. Got some new musings.
Like everyone has said before: we can't say anything definitive til the third one anyway (and maybe not even then ;)), but what do you think about these things:
Someone said...
that robot that freed/checked neo originally was working for the Archi etc in The Matrix. And that the councillor bloke in zion is the previous "One" that restarted Zion? (apparently he kept saying they had no choice/chance in the end, or something. He's taken an ambivilant/accepting attitude to the domination of technology in its relationship with humanity maybe)
Also....
I see the Architect as represents a complex form of socratic/platonic logic wanting to oust emotion etc completely from the "equation". "Pure" thought without all the messy emotions/instincts/drives etc (ego without the id. believing yourself objective without the subjective. Stuff like that) Note his
little speech as Neo chooses Trinity/love/chance/choice etc i.e. "i see it on your face now, that feeling that is washing over your body, blinding you from the truth and causing you to make a choice". Here i could almost say he's using Socratic style rhetoric to prove his logical point.
I was sort of thinking about the role of choice (and manipulation of choice) as well. Arch gives Neo the (manipulative) "freedom" of the either-or choice of doors. He doesn't try to stop him when makes the unwanted choice (could he?) It started me thinking about how power might have to ride on the back of greater/other powers. In the sense that no one entity/group can control/govern everything, so they need to be able to leash the powers of others (control of information would again be key for someone attempting to do this - or create a "structure" which works in their favour. They'd want to utilise and/or difuse these rival/unremovable powers) In this case it's something about the human mind that the AIs cant replicate/have. Connected with choice (and instinct/intuition etc etc i'm gussing the bros are suggesting). So they they do their best to predict, govern, and direct these wayward elements towards their desired outcome.
Neo finds choice in the seemingly un-win-able binary decision by finding out what untold good-sides can exist in what you're told is the bad choice. He doesn't trust how the Architect has framed what he's said, and he takes the risk. And he just thinks with his...organs.
Still not sure exactly why the Archi claims the door neo chooses will cause the destruction of humanity etc. I suppose he's just projecting/predicting(spinning) i.e saying: choose that door and you choose to carry on fighting us. And you will lose. So it's all just blag again, in the name of maintaing a stable but highly preferential system. Logical, but very inhumane ;)
Don't know ifd Persephone is the oracle, but i'm betting not. Another explanation for her and Merange-man (whatever) is that they could be early AI experiments at mimicking human emotions, drives etc etc to try to replicate these anomylous and un-understood phenomenon emergant in Neo, Trinity etc. (d'you reckon the next one'll end with an expanded "Trinity"? i.e a kid for our gnostic couple? :p [sorry, not really sure on gnosticism, just trying to sound flash ;)]
And what the hell do the humans eat that're still plugged into the Matrix? Bits of dead ones?
Originally posted by Kong
(If you don't conform to the "Zion is another part of the Matrix" theory then please explain the spoon to Kong.)
Oh, shhhugar. This could mean more wordage... Um: Really don't know, but...My take on the spoon:
The kid in The Matrix with the spoon was saying that "all is one", so therefore he and the spoon were one so therefore he could do what he liked to it
[NB - could Morpheus's blasted blind faith be a sign that the bros are going to ultimately ditch any "organised" religion as a metaphor for this film? hehehe, bring on the day to day secular mysticism -arm in arm with science of course]
I think when the kid sent it to neo in zion he was saying something like:
remember it's all linked/your subjective perception is invalid/incomplete in comparison other/global perspective(s)
or maybe he's saying "here's the real spoon", the other one's a fake. but that sort of takes the p*ss out of buddist thought maybe. Not sure.
What are you saying Kong? That coz spoons exists in both worlds they are both matrixs?? Not sure how it backs up the matrix-in-a-matrix party-pooper plot. (it'd be a shame i still think, cinematically and as a big diffuse analogy, if it all turned out to be an infinite stack of turtles i.e. as in the explanation given for what the turtle holding up the world stood on in chinese mythology, i think)
We'll see.
Final thought: When given a choice or question that has closed off multiple possiblities or realities, i believe the buddha once answered "mu", so as to say just that. Well, at least that's the zen buddist translation of what he said to some guy who asked if dogs can be buddists or something. I shout it at my local MP all the time ;)
Fish of Tuna
06-30-03, 05:19 PM
golgot, u go deep man, i thought this thread was all dried up but damn u got nuff to say, keep it comin, or sum1 with a bit more imagination then me answer him bak
Cheers Fishy :D
Just got too much time on me hands coz i'm only working part time ;)
(you realise if you're a fan of the arse i can't speak to you anymore ;))
hehehe, non Britlandish readers r gonna b confused by that one ;)
right, run out of sarky faces
(i'm reserving the others for the silent Kong! Explain the spoon by noon Kong! High noon! I don't care which day - time is an illusion. Oh ****, one more...;))
gg
CALICUZN
07-02-03, 09:44 PM
Dammit. Got some new musings.
Like everyone has said before: we can't say anything definitive til the third one anyway (and maybe not even then ;)), but what do you think about these things:
Someone said...
that robot that freed/checked neo originally was working for the Archi etc in The Matrix. And that the councillor bloke in zion is the previous "One" that restarted Zion? (apparently he kept saying they had no choice/chance in the end, or something. He's taken an ambivilant/accepting attitude to the domination of technology in its relationship with humanity maybe)
Also....
I see the Architect as represents a complex form of socratic/platonic logic wanting to oust emotion etc completely from the "equation". "Pure" thought without all the messy emotions/instincts/drives etc (ego without the id. believing yourself objective without the subjective. Stuff like that) Note his
little speech as Neo chooses Trinity/love/chance/choice etc i.e. "i see it on your face now, that feeling that is washing over your body, blinding you from the truth and causing you to make a choice". Here i could almost say he's using Socratic style rhetoric to prove his logical point.
I was sort of thinking about the role of choice (and manipulation of choice) as well. Arch gives Neo the (manipulative) "freedom" of the either-or choice of doors. He doesn't try to stop him when makes the unwanted choice (could he?) It started me thinking about how power might have to ride on the back of greater/other powers. In the sense that no one entity/group can control/govern everything, so they need to be able to leash the powers of others (control of information would again be key for someone attempting to do this - or create a "structure" which works in their favour. They'd want to utilise and/or difuse these rival/unremovable powers) In this case it's something about the human mind that the AIs cant replicate/have. Connected with choice (and instinct/intuition etc etc i'm gussing the bros are suggesting). So they they do their best to predict, govern, and direct these wayward elements towards their desired outcome.
Neo finds choice in the seemingly un-win-able binary decision by finding out what untold good-sides can exist in what you're told is the bad choice. He doesn't trust how the Architect has framed what he's said, and he takes the risk. And he just thinks with his...organs.
Still not sure exactly why the Archi claims the door neo chooses will cause the destruction of humanity etc. I suppose he's just projecting/predicting(spinning) i.e saying: choose that door and you choose to carry on fighting us. And you will lose. So it's all just blag again, in the name of maintaing a stable but highly preferential system. Logical, but very inhumane ;)
Don't know ifd Persephone is the oracle, but i'm betting not. Another explanation for her and Merange-man (whatever) is that they could be early AI experiments at mimicking human emotions, drives etc etc to try to replicate these anomylous and un-understood phenomenon emergant in Neo, Trinity etc. (d'you reckon the next one'll end with an expanded "Trinity"? i.e a kid for our gnostic couple? :p [sorry, not really sure on gnosticism, just trying to sound flash ;)]
And what the hell do the humans eat that're still plugged into the Matrix? Bits of dead ones?
Oh, shhhugar. This could mean more wordage... Um: Really don't know, but...My take on the spoon:
The kid in The Matrix with the spoon was saying that "all is one", so therefore he and the spoon were one so therefore he could do what he liked to it
[NB - could Morpheus's blasted blind faith be a sign that the bros are going to ultimately ditch any "organised" religion as a metaphor for this film? hehehe, bring on the day to day secular mysticism -arm in arm with science of course]
I think when the kid sent it to neo in zion he was saying something like:
remember it's all linked/your subjective perception is invalid/incomplete in comparison other/global perspective(s)
or maybe he's saying "here's the real spoon", the other one's a fake. but that sort of takes the p*ss out of buddist thought maybe. Not sure.
What are you saying Kong? That coz spoons exists in both worlds they are both matrixs?? Not sure how it backs up the matrix-in-a-matrix party-pooper plot. (it'd be a shame i still think, cinematically and as a big diffuse analogy, if it all turned out to be an infinite stack of turtles i.e. as in the explanation given for what the turtle holding up the world stood on in chinese mythology, i think)
We'll see.
Final thought: When given a choice or question that has closed off multiple possiblities or realities, i believe the buddha once answered "mu", so as to say just that. Well, at least that's the zen buddist translation of what he said to some guy who asked if dogs can be buddists or something. I shout it at my local MP all the time ;)
THAT WAS GOOD GOLGOT. LUV IT, FIANALLY SOME TALK ABOUT 2, AND SOON TO BE THREE,OF THE GREATEST MOVIES OF ALL TIME ,ANYWAY HERE'S MY VIEW AND SOME CLUES.
THIS IS THE SECOND FILM OF A TRILOGY.WE ALL KNOW THAT I ALSO AGREE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE 'REAL WORLD', 'THE ONE', AND THE PROPHECIES AND ZION ARE ALL LIES.THEY ARE ACTUALLY A COMPUTER SIMULATION THAT CONTAINS ANOTHER COMPUTER SIMULATION CALLED 'THE MATRIX' THE CLUES THE WACHOWSKI BROS NEVER REPEAT A SCENE. YOU SEE SEVERAL SCENES IN PROPHETIC DREAMS, BUT THEN THEY DON'T SHOW THE WHOLE SCENE AGAIN LATER. 'THE MATRIX' IS THE STORY OF 'THE ONE'. EACH ONE MUST CHOOSE BETWEEN ZION(WHICH SERVES THE PURPOSES OF THE MACHINES) OR (TRINITY). THE MACHINES HAVE DESTROYED (7) ZION'S ,SO THEREFORE (7) TRINITY'S. 'THE ARCHITECT' EVEN SAY'S, "I DESIGNED THE PERFECT MATRIX","AND IT FAILED". "AN OUTSIDE SOURCE CAME TO ME AND SHOWED ME THE SOLUTION". "NEO SAID,"THE SOURCE WAS THE ORACLE". THE SOLUTION WAS CHOICE. THE MATRIX OR ZION ARE THE TWO CHOICES. LIVE A COMFORTABLE SLAVE TO THE MACHINES LIKE CYPHER OR A FREE 'UNPLUGGED' LIFE LIKE MORPHEUS AND LOCKE. " YOU MAY SELECT 11 MAN AND 12 WOMEN TO 'RESTART' ZION, OR KILL BILLIONS OF PEOPLE. THE ORACLE EVEN TELLS NEO SHE IS A CONTROL AND A PROGRAM, BUT DOES HE TRUST HER. (NOTE:THERE WAS MENTION OF NEO BEING A PROGRAM JUST LIKE THE ORACLE.SHE SAID" YOUR CODE MUST BE RETURNED TO THE MATRIX". BUR WHAT ABOUT THE CHEMICALS THE ARCHITECT MENTIONS? 'THE MEROVINGIAN' SHOWS NEO HOW LUST IS JUST A CHEMICAL REACTION. THE LADY WHO ATE THE 'CLIMAX CAKE' DOESN'T KNOW WAY SHE HAD A CLIMAX,JUST THAT SHE DID. THE ARCHITECT FORCING THE ONE TO SELECT THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE OVER TRINITY BREAKS THE ONE AND UNCONSCIOUSLY ALL THE HUMANS IN THAT GENERATION. NEW HUMANS REPLACE THAT GENERATION ,AND EVENTUALLY WANT THEIR OWN CHANCE TO BE FREE, SO ANOTHER 'ONE' IS CREATED. THE ARCHITECT EVEN MENTIONS THE CHEMICALS OF NEO'S LOVE FOR TRINITY. IMPLYING THAT HE MUST RISE ABOVE HIS OWN FEELINGS AND CHOOSE BILLIONS OF PEOPLE , NOT TRINITY. THE ORACLE REFERING TO SAVING TRINITY OR LETTING HER DIE, TELLS NEO " YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE THE CHOICE ,THE QUESTION IS WHY?" " YOU CANNOT SEE PAST YOUR OWN DECISION UNTIL YOU KNOW WHY YOU MADE IT." THE ORACLE ALSO SAYS THE ANSWER TO WEATHER NEO SAVES TRINITY OR NOT IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT QUESTION. THE MEROVINGIAN ALSO SAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT ANSWER IS "WHY?" THE MORPHEUS SPEECH IN 'RELOADED' SAYS "HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN COINCIDENCE". IN THE FIRST MOVIE CYPHER IS ABOUT TO KILL NEO AND SAYS HOW CAN HE BE THE ONE IF HE'S DEAD, A MIRACLE WOULD HAVE TO SAVE HIM. A MIRACLE IN THE FORM OF TANK WHO'S STILL ALIVE KILLS CYPHER AND SAVES NEO. THREE TEARS LATER THE ORACLE SAYS THEY HAVE FOUND THE LOCATION OF THE 'KEYMAKER',JUST AS ZION IS UNDER ATTACK. LOCKE SAYS ONE SHIP MIGHT NOT FIND THE NEBUCHANEZZAR , THE FEMALE COUNCILOR ASKS FOR TWO CAPTAINS. THERE ARE THREE MISSIONS THAT MUST BE CARRIED OUT AT THE SAME TIME,AND THREE CAPTAINS. THE CATWALK ON THE HOVERCRAFT FAILS JUST IN TIME TO KILL THE OPERATOR AND PILOT AND PREVENT THE HOVERCRAFT FROM AVOIDING THE SENTINEL BOMB. THE SENTINEL BOMB KILLS THE CREW WHO DEACTIVATE THE EMERGENCY POWERSTATION FORCING TRINITY TO ENTER THE MATRIX TO SAVE NEO. THE KEYMAKER SAYS HIS PURPOSE IS FULFILLED AFTER GIVING NEO THE KEY. ZION LOSES BECAUSE AN 'EMP' IS "MYSTERIOUSLY" DETONATED DURING THE SENTINEL ATTACK. THE ONLY SURVIVOR IS THE HUMAN WITH AGENT SMITH HIDING INSIDE(QUESTIONS: WAS ZION DESTROYED OR WAS IT ONLY THE COUNTER ATTACK? WAS THE 'EMP' TRIGGERED BY AGENT SMITH WHILE THE SHIPS WHERE UNDER POWER?, REMEMBER HOVERCRAFT MUST BE TURNED OFF WHEN USING 'EMP' AND THUS DESTROYED THE COUNTER ATTACK?) MORPHEUS IN 'THE MATRIX' SAYS" THE ONE FREED THE FIRST OF THEM" "THE PROPHECIES SAY WHEN THE ONE COMES AGAIN , THE WAR AGAINST THE MACHINES WILL END. YOU WILL SEE IN 'MATRIX REVOLUTIONS' THAT THIS IS TRUE. THE MACHINES WIN. SEVEN TIMES THE ONE HAS CHOSEN BILLIONS OF HUMAN LIVES OVER TRINITY. ZION IS A CONTROL TO GIVE HUMANS A UNCONCIOUS CHOICE. THERE ARE 250,000 SENTINELS ATTACKING ZION . "ONE FOR EVERY HUMAN, OR MAN ,WOMAN AND CHILD IN ZION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT I FORGET". THE COUNCILOR TALKS TO NEO AND SAYS "WE NEED THE MACHINES AND THE MACHINES NEED US". PROGRAMS IN THE MATRIX THAT CHOOSE NOT TO PERFORM THEIR FUNCTION ARE DELETED ,HIDE IN THE MATRIX OR EXILED TO ZION. THE OLD PROGRAMS THAT HIDE IN THE MATRIX HAVE SUPERPOWERS LIKE MORPHEUS("HOW MANY PEOPLE CARRY SILVER BULLETS IN THEIR GUNS") BUT NOT AS STRONG AS NEO. AGENT SMITH TELLS NEO"YOU FREED ME." "CAN'T YOU FEEL THE LINK BETWEEN US." AGENT SMITH CAN NOW TAKE OVER BOTH HUMANS AND PROGRAMS IN THE MATRIX AND CAN LOCATE NEO IN THE MATRIX. NEO TAKES THE RED PILL THE ORACLE GIVES HIM (NOTE:NEXT TIME YOU SEE THIS FILM SEE IF NEO EATS THE CANDY OR JUST TAKES IT.) JUST BEFORE AGENT SMITH IN ZION CAN KILL NEO, THE KID SHOWS UP WITH A MESSAGE. AN ORPHAN WANTS TO GIVE NEO A SPOON. BUT INSIDE THE MATRIX --IN THE FIRST MOVIE--THE ORPHAN SAYS "REMEMBER YOU CAN'T BEND THE SPOON,THERE IS 'NO SPOON' . AFTER CHOOSING TRINITY OVER BILLIONS OF HUMANS AND THE MACHINE FORM OF ZION, NEO CAN FEEL THE SENTINELS , NEO THEN STOPS ONE OF THE SENTINELS. THE TITLE OF THE SECOND MOVIE IS TITLED 'RELOADED' AND THE OBJECT OF THE ONE IS TO DESTROY ZION BUT SAVE THE BILLIONS OF HUMANS BY GIVING THE ONE THE CHOICE OF SAVING HIS TRINITY AND SAVING ALL THE HUMANS. THIS IS THE SEVENTH TIME THE MATRIX HAS BEEN RELOADED (SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE NUMBER SEVEN I STILL NEED TO FIGURE OUT) ANYWAY THE OTHER SOLUTION THAT FITS IS THE ORACLE IS A PROGRAM SENT BY GOD AND NEO HAS MESSIANIC POWERS IN THE 'REAL WORLD' AND FIGHT BETWEEN MAN AND MACHINE WAS A TEST OF HUMAN FREE WILL . THAT THEORY SUCKS !,. BUT THERE ARE MANY PATHS THE WACHOWSKI BROS CAN TAKE . SO I HOPE I'VE BEEN HELPFULL ...........PEACE!
I ALSO AGREE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE 'REAL WORLD', 'THE ONE', AND THE PROPHECIES AND ZION ARE ALL LIES.THEY ARE ACTUALLY A COMPUTER SIMULATION THAT CONTAINS ANOTHER COMPUTER SIMULATION CALLED 'THE MATRIX' .
Ahhh, another believer. Good stuff in there Calicuzn. Here's my take on some of it (i've gone for the different path of: zion-world is real, so most of my takes are a bit different)
EACH ONE MUST CHOOSE BETWEEN ZION(WHICH SERVES THE PURPOSES OF THE MACHINES) OR (TRINITY).
i'm not so sure there is a "trinity" in every incarnation, even tho the Oracle etc is fully aware of her and Neo's set-up. We'll see. Maybe she's one of the differences this time?
THE SOLUTION WAS CHOICE. THE MATRIX OR ZION ARE THE TWO CHOICES.
Agreed.
(NOTE:THERE WAS MENTION OF NEO BEING A PROGRAM JUST LIKE THE ORACLE.SHE SAID" YOUR CODE MUST BE RETURNED TO THE MATRIX".
I'm wondering whether she means he must bring back the fruits of what he has learned/his changes and "sow" them back amongst humankind :)
She does after all seem to be more on his side than the Archi i.e. i was under the impression she had somehow renaged like a lot of other progs, even tho she still serves a purpose (tho considering everything that's gone down, i suppose she must still be serving that purpose - understanding humans and ensuring the zion-anomly systems keeps working. Such a nice old lady too ;))
BUR WHAT ABOUT THE CHEMICALS THE ARCHITECT MENTIONS? 'THE MEROVINGIAN' SHOWS NEO HOW LUST IS JUST A CHEMICAL REACTION. THE LADY WHO ATE THE 'CLIMAX CAKE' DOESN'T KNOW WAY SHE HAD A CLIMAX,JUST THAT SHE DID.
Well seeing as these are basically "bad guys", i'm taking both Mero's take on action and thought being pure chemical, and Archi's disgust at it to be a critique of this mind-set. In other words, even tho they have a profound understanding of human biochemistry and how it's the process/"cause" of our thoughts and actions (they've managed to create a "digital" interchange that can fully replicate all naturally perceivable stimuae for the benefit of the "batteries", and replicate their own interaction with it, after all. Not to mention Smith's mind being able to "possess" a human's ). The point is tho THEY STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW certain emergant behaviours in humans come about, i.e. what the process is exactly between cause and effect. They know they can stick a finger in there, come up with a modified-horny-cake here, and have one sexed up woman in toilets not five minutes later. Hurrah. But they still can't replicate all the aspects of the human mind (conscious and unconscious) that are capable of producing humans like Neo and the others.
Ok, I'm assuming a lot of things above: That the Anomylies [I]aren't made by the Archi etc, but are just generated by natural variation etc. I'm assuming these characters are always troublesome when they turn up, hence the need for this Zion-hope option to distract them.
I'm also assuming lots of things about how the energy-human system actually works. Do the animatrix things explain this? They talk about bio-energy in the first film don't they? I'm just assuming that (a) it might be something about the operation of the mind, not just the body, that provides the energy, hence the need to keep the conciousness etc active and occupied. Why not just use zombie humans if it's just body energy they want? [tho admittadly this might lead to reduced body health over all - plus do they actually move around in those little pods? i.e. enact their matrix-actions? Seems daft - i'm sticking to the brain-energy thing] (b) Therefore, if they could replicate this process they would, but they can't (even tho they understand the full chemical workings ;)), so it's just the most efficient thing to do to keep the human intact but "distracted".
(I reckon the whole "anomaly" thing is a lot more complicated than i've put it here - but not sure how yet. It's a quality idea tho, a consistant system needing an anomly etc etc It's almost like how the flexibility opened up by Einstein in physics allows people to carry on being as inflexible mentally as they were before, but with a bit more representation and "accuracy" lent to their systems. A system opposed to change that recognises it's occasional neccesity. Let's face it, all cities/cultures get by by bending the rules, coz we know when they don't really work etc, this is like the whole thing on a much bigger scale yet refined to some machine-pleasing goals. Um sort of - i know, i know, that didn't make much sense)
THE ARCHITECT FORCING THE ONE TO SELECT THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE OVER TRINITY BREAKS THE ONE AND UNCONSCIOUSLY ALL THE HUMANS IN THAT GENERATION.
Yeah that's mad isn't it. An impossible choice when you've been polarised (um, uni-ised?) into the representative of everything: choose between everything minus 1 person, or that person.
NEW HUMANS REPLACE THAT GENERATION ,AND EVENTUALLY WANT THEIR OWN CHANCE TO BE FREE, SO ANOTHER 'ONE' IS CREATED.
Yeah, still not sure. I'm sure the Oracle would be anxious to find the next one tho.
THE ORACLE REFERING TO SAVING TRINITY OR LETTING HER DIE, TELLS NEO " YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE THE CHOICE ,THE QUESTION IS WHY?" " YOU CANNOT SEE PAST YOUR OWN DECISION UNTIL YOU KNOW WHY YOU MADE IT." THE ORACLE ALSO SAYS THE ANSWER TO WEATHER NEO SAVES TRINITY OR NOT IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT QUESTION. THE MEROVINGIAN ALSO SAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT ANSWER IS "WHY?"
Um, ok, all tricky. Not knowing where the oracle stands don't help (i suppose i should accept she's with the Archi). So maybe the Oracle is trying to get neo to see the "bigger picture"?? i.e. forget bout Trinity (which would be strange considering her previous role pushing them together)
Interesting stuff about the "you've already made it..." etc plus the "why" issue. I'm probably pushing it too far if i say that the bros might be highlighting the logical imperative of having conciously explained reasons, especially in M's case. (despite being "debauched", and possibly a replica of human emotions, he's still a "logical" machine it seems) Neo's impulsive choice to save Trinity is one of the representations of his varience from what the machines can concieve of)
THE MORPHEUS SPEECH IN 'RELOADED' SAYS "HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN COINCIDENCE".
Morpheus might be being lined up to represent the delusions of only believing in something passionately, without ever questioning it or searching for proof. Blind-faith. (ah, so many checks and balances. God is a prankster god obviously, as Bill Hicks said. Putting all those dinosaur bones down to question our beliefs, and set off whole new ones. What a devil s/he/it is eh?)
As for the miracles: are the bros just adding in some strands of "chance"?
ZION LOSES BECAUSE AN 'EMP' IS "MYSTERIOUSLY" DETONATED DURING THE SENTINEL ATTACK. THE ONLY SURVIVOR IS THE HUMAN WITH AGENT SMITH HIDING INSIDE
Smith setting it off seems very possible. Altho does he still want the destruction of Zion? i.e. would he aide the other machines (i suppose he does want to take over, so probably yes)
MORPHEUS IN 'THE MATRIX' SAYS" THE ONE FREED THE FIRST OF THEM" "THE PROPHECIES SAY WHEN THE ONE COMES AGAIN , THE WAR AGAINST THE MACHINES WILL END. YOU WILL SEE IN 'MATRIX REVOLUTIONS' THAT THIS IS TRUE. THE MACHINES WIN.
THE COUNCILOR TALKS TO NEO AND SAYS "WE NEED THE MACHINES AND THE MACHINES NEED US".
Yeah, i love that idea someone said that the Counsellor was the previous One. It fits perfectly with how he's benign towards machines + pessimistic about their success in the war. Altho how could he "come again"? Didn't Morpheus meet him? He'd know then wouldn't he. Hmmmm. Don't know any more.
The only way in which the machines "win" is if they get/keep the matrix operating smoothly. That could be quite an effective and shocking ending really. Neo back at his computer, unaware anything has changed. He taps away. Camera pans out ;)
ZION IS A CONTROL TO GIVE HUMANS A UNCONCIOUS CHOICE.
Yeah. Still not entirely sure how the choice thing works. Isn't the choice a conscious one ultimately?
PROGRAMS IN THE MATRIX THAT CHOOSE NOT TO PERFORM THEIR FUNCTION ARE DELETED ,HIDE IN THE MATRIX OR EXILED TO ZION.
Smith's the only one in zion isn't he? And he's not doing things the Archi etc planned for i don't think
AGENT SMITH TELLS NEO"YOU FREED ME." "CAN'T YOU FEEL THE LINK BETWEEN US."
That's the only explanation i've got for how neo has stopped the machines. He's linked to smith, who is still linked to his multiple selves in the Matrix. The anomalies are bouncing off eachother here!
(NOTE:NEXT TIME YOU SEE THIS FILM SEE IF NEO EATS THE CANDY OR JUST TAKES IT.)
Apparently he doesn't. I didn't notice.
JUST BEFORE AGENT SMITH IN ZION CAN KILL NEO, THE KID SHOWS UP WITH A MESSAGE. AN ORPHAN WANTS TO GIVE NEO A SPOON. BUT INSIDE THE MATRIX --IN THE FIRST MOVIE--THE ORPHAN SAYS "REMEMBER YOU CAN'T BEND THE SPOON,THERE IS 'NO SPOON' .
Um, yeah, got lots of theories - none of them that clear. Basically think it's to remind him he's One with the matrix. don't know how this tallies with buddism, which i thought it paralleled but now i'm not so sure. I think it still is (u can see i'm not sure ;)
THIS IS THE SEVENTH TIME THE MATRIX HAS BEEN RELOADED (SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE NUMBER SEVEN I STILL NEED TO FIGURE OUT)
7 is an important number in Christianity. Some other guys were talking about it earlier on. Neo wasa bit of a jesus figure in the first film wasnt he. Dying then being reborn etc. Being the second coming and so on.
ANYWAY THE OTHER SOLUTION THAT FITS IS THE ORACLE IS A PROGRAM SENT BY GOD AND NEO HAS MESSIANIC POWERS IN THE 'REAL WORLD' AND FIGHT BETWEEN MAN AND MACHINE WAS A TEST OF HUMAN FREE WILL . THAT THEORY SUCKS !,. BUT THERE ARE MANY PATHS THE WACHOWSKI BROS CAN TAKE . SO I HOPE I'VE BEEN HELPFULL ...........PEACE!
I think there's some other takes on the free will thing. I'm hoping it'll end up emphasising the need for us to be aware of, guide and let flourish everything from our biochemistries to our technologies. I think it's a film about how it's time for all us players in the modern world to recognise our personal and technilogical failings and potentials. To come up with a new spirit of endeavour/observant-belief?? Modern mysticism? Bring it on ;)
[to see a practical way to interact with technology, scientific thought, spiritual thought and morality in the world supporting your bum right now, have a look at the link below ;)]
Rant over.
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