Film Noir HoF...Hall of Fame

[Citizen Rules]

...I never felt connected completely. That is not necessary of course, but almost always happens with movies that become my favorites... Sean, I'm interested to know more about that. Why, when they become your favorites?

[Citizen Rules]

I watched The Lady from Shanghai for the first time. What a mess of a movie. I understand the studio helped butcher it, and it's curious, or rather telling I suppose, that Orson Wells took his name off the credits as director, but even so my biggest complaint has to with the main character. Since all the characters are unlikeable and not the least bit interesting, the main character should be someone who is at least interesting. He's not. He's an empty shell. There's no depth to the character, which still wouldn't be bad if there was something there at all...Instead the only things I could see were lazy acting and a very distracting and completely unnecessary Irish accent.

Overall, very disappointing, but I'm glad I finally saw it. I should mention I found the scene in the carnival very impressive. Definitely the highlight of the film, and almost enough to give the movie some redemption...

I agree with your points on the film:

It was a mess, I called it choppy. That's thanks to the studio hacking an hour out of it.

Orson's character didn't have much depth, other than being kind of simply and gullible. He seems to have no real agenda or personality.

Rita Hayworth's character wasn't very well fleshed out either. In the opening shots when Rita and Orson are walking and he tells her he commented murder, she never reacts, she just keeps the same glamor smile on her face. I know Rita can act, but not in this movie.

[Erasmus Folly]

Dark Crimes - 50 Movie Set

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/810UrHlSz3L._SY679_.jpg

As for the quality of these transfers to DVD I can't speak since I haven't seen them yet. They are released from Mill Creek Entertainment of which I have seen some before and are pretty good. A lot of these films are in the public domain and that may also effect quality, but for a price of $9.99 it's hard to go wrong. A lot of these would be hard to find anywhere else.

Wow, that's like only .20 cents a movie, I might have to buy that myself. A lot of those movies could be hard to find so it sounds like a neat collection. I've seen a few of them but not many. If anybody buys that, let us know what the quality is like?


So I went ahead and bought this collection and it arrived from Amazon yesterday. It comes with a very sturdy hard plastic snap-lock case that holds its 12 discs very securely. Each disk is enclosed in a simple black paper sleeve. It also has with it a small glossy booklet that lists the title of each film with a brief description and which film is on what disc. This is very necessary because all the discs are clean and shiny with no identifying marks to tell you what movie is on what disc except at the very center where the spindle hole is located, and this printing is so tiny you will need a magnifying glass to read it, which is extremely annoying to say the least, So be careful to keep them in order or mark them yourself in some way.

As to the quality. I tested one that I had some previous experience with, namely D.O.A. with Edmund O'Brien (1950). I had seen the public domain version which has scratches and some frames out of focus and some ghosting here and there, but watchable. I have also seen the completely re-mastered version taken from the producer's master negative which is clean and bright and minus the defects. This disc was definitely the public domain version as suspected. (P.S. The re-mastered version of D.O.A. is available for free streaming on Amazon Instant Viewing for Amazon Prime members).

All in all, a decent purchase for the price. I recommend it for those willing to delve deeper in some obscure B-Grade noir/crime films.

[seanc]

Sean, I'm interested to know more about that. Why, when they become your favorites?

I think when I love a movie I almost always become completely invested in the characters. That is what makes me return to them and what involves me emotionally. In a movie like Shanghai that is in my opinion plot heavy, I can enjoy it but only to a point. When the characters are secondary because I am trying to untangle the plot, I don't get hit with the same gut punch though. Its like I am an observer instead of a participater. Hope that makes some sense. The more movies I watch the more I am starting to see the difference between movies I like and those I love.

[Citizen Rules]

I think I get it. In plot heavy movies where the characters are secondary to the story, you don't get as emotional invested, but more intellectual invested. Did I understand that right?

The more movies I watch the more I am starting to see the difference between movies I like and those I love. Now I gotta know;) what are the differences for you?


You know I've seen 4 of these classic noirs:
Laura, Out of the Past, Lady From Shanghai, Sunset Boulevard.
I seen them years ago and loved them. On a much closer watch, I'm scrutinizing them like a producer in a screening room and I'm not loving them like I use to. I wonder if that happens to others?

[Citizen Rules]

Thanks Eramus for posting that. When you watch a couple more movies from the set please post about the movie DVD quality.

[gbgoodies]

So I went ahead and bought this collection and it arrived from Amazon yesterday. It comes with a very sturdy hard plastic snap-lock case that holds its 12 discs very securely. Each disk is enclosed in a simple black paper sleeve. It also has with it a small glossy booklet that lists the title of each film with a brief description and which film is on what disc. This is very necessary because all the discs are clean and shiny with no identifying marks to tell you what movie is on what disc except at the very center where the spindle hole is located, and this printing is so tiny you will need a magnifying glass to read it, which is extremely annoying to say the least, So be careful to keep them in order or mark them yourself in some way.

As to the quality. I tested one that I had some previous experience with, namely D.O.A. with Edmund O'Brien (1950). I had seen the public domain version which has scratches and some frames out of focus and some ghosting here and there, but watchable. I have also seen the completely re-mastered version taken from the producer's master negative which is clean and bright and minus the defects. This disc was definitely the public domain version as suspected. (P.S. The re-mastered version of D.O.A. is available for free streaming on Amazon Instant Viewing for Amazon Prime members).

All in all, a decent purchase for the price. I recommend it for those willing to delve deeper in some obscure B-Grade noir/crime films.


Yeah, I have a couple of these types of sets that I've bought at garage sales very cheap, and they're all about the same. They give you a lot of movies for the money, and some of them are actually pretty good movies, but the quality usually isn't the greatest because they're public domain movies that are several generations old.

They're worth the money if you just want to see the movies.

[Citizen Rules]

AMC has public domain movies in sets. I have several sets and the DVD quality varies from poor to good, mostly they are just OK. One problem is they place 2 movies on one DVD which means the recording quality wasn't as high as it could have been. Still for the price they are hard to beat.

[christine]

Citizen - nice choice in Pickup on South Street. Very much liked this film standout performances from Thelma Ritter, Richard Widmark and specially Jean Peters. That scene where
Candy gets beaten up by Joey when she gets out of the bath looks very real to me. Good fight scene at the end too in the subway

[Kaplan]

You know I've seen 4 of these classic noirs:
Laura, Out of the Past, Lady From Shanghai, Sunset Boulevard.
I seen them years ago and loved them. On a much closer watch, I'm scrutinizing them like a producer in a screening room and I'm not loving them like I use to. I wonder if that happens to others?

You should check out "The Noir Side of Sunset Boulevard" wherein Joseph Wambaugh talks about his love for the movie. His enthusiasm will revitalize your love for the film. It's on the second disc of special features for the DVD, so I don't know if it's available on youtube.

For me I've enjoyed all the movies as much as I ever have or even more, like in the case of Out of the Past. I'm looking forward to The Wrong Man, because it's the rare later Hitchcock film I've seen only once, and I wasn't hugely impressed by it. We'll see if within the context of Film Noir I like it more.

I've watched so far:
Shadow of a Doubt
Laura
Double Indemnity
Out of the Past
The Set-Up
The Lady from Shanghai
The Third Man
Sunset Boulevard

[neiba]

I watched The Set-Up today! I wouldn't call it a Quintessential Noir but I liked a lot! It's perfectly executed, and the tension is built magnificently!
One of my favourites of the whole list so far, but I still have some to watch!

[Citizen Rules]

The Set-Up sounds good.

I'll post my thoughts on Sunset Blvd shortly.

[seanc]

Watched two more good ones tonight

Out Of The Past: Really loved this one. Mitchum and Douglas are fantastic together and this has one of the best femmes. I also think the cinematography is amazing. Great use of shadows, which I know is a noir staple, but it really stood out here. Going to be hard to rank with all the greats in this HOF but this is a movie I will definitely be returning to.

The Set-Up: Going to be hard for this one to compete with the other big guns we have nominated but it was pretty darn good. The best aspect is the atmosphere it creates, very sweaty and gritty. I really like the scenes in the locker rooms between the boxers.

This is great guys. So happy to be discovering more noir. I wish I had gotten into it sooner.

[Erasmus Folly]

Laura by Ott0 Preminger (1944)

The first thing we hear in this film is a voice over by Clifton Webb – “I never shall forget the weekend when Laura died . . . . . . “ which is something of a cheat.

It is a cheat since the last lines of the movie are spoken by him as he dies, so he can’t be remembering anything.
The very first thing I felt as I absorbed his character was ‘What an odious character he is’. But he does it very well. In fact, he steals the show with his strong performance IMO. Vincent Price is adequate, as is Judith Anderson, (before becoming a Dame Commander OBE), but the two actors who have the star billing, namely Gene Tierney and Dana Andrews are major disappointments.

Ms. Tierney looks very beautiful, but I sense a lack of emotional involvement with her two ‘lovers?’ Clifton Webb is her ‘sugar Daddy’ and he buys her clothes, shows her to ‘right people’, guides her career, and molds her to his idea of perfection as Jimmy Stewart does to Kim Novak in Vertigo. By why does Laura allow this? Her first introduction to the audience, all be it through Waldo’s eyes, she is headstrong and ambitious. She doesn’t seem to be the type to allow someone to mold her. There does not even appear to be a hint of a sexual liaison between Waldo and Laura. His reasons appear to be that he wishes to have her as his ‘kept woman’, a beautiful pawn to be at his arm as he goes to high society parties. What her reasons are is anybody’s guess, she seems lacking in any real attachment to him.


The same applies to her relationship with Shelby (Vincent Price) an obvious gigolo. She seems intelligent enough to see through his shallowness.
Dana Andrews is even more lacking in any involvement. He mostly stands around and plays with a child’s puzzle occasionally threatening to arrest almost anybody, then backing down.

One of the key features of this film and I suppose one its great strengths is virtually everybody is a possible suspect. In fact, any one of them could be the murderer, depending on how you want to write the ending, and supposedly the original ending that was filmed was different.


My personal choice for the murderer was Bessie, Laura’s maid, who was disappointed that Laura was going marry Shelby and was afraid of being dismissed when Laura married. She, along with Waldo, was the only person to be genuinely shocked when Laura turns up alive, indicating a grievous mistake had been made in the killing, an all too common cliché when there is a shotgun fired to the face.
This film was directed by Otto Preminger and it was his first real success in films, and I think it shows since IMO it is not his best. He allows for too many clichés to tell his tale and fails to give his main actors a sense of involvement with each other. He was originally only supposed to be the producer but was assigned to direct after the original director was fired.

Cinematography (It won the Oscar that year) was excellent, almost all scenes shot in studio. The music, the constant underlying playing of Laura’s Theme was annoying to me – too syrupy and sentimental, destroying any tension in the scene.

This usually rated very high as a film noir despite it confusing convoluted plot. I rate it somewhat less at:

rating_3_5

[christine]

I agree with your summing up Erasmus. I described Laura as like a trophy for Waldo, showing her off in society parties. Without the presence of Clifton Webb as the obviously gay, superbly waspish Waldo , the film wouldn't have been such a good watch.
The screen presence of the gorgeous Gene Tierney isn't enough to make Laura interesting at all - the camera loves her but that's not enough.
I last watched this film years ago and remember quite liking it, but not so engrossing this time. Maybe cos I knew the ending? but possibly cos you notice more things when you're older.

[Erasmus Folly]

One of the things I dislike about this film is its over all production. It came out of Twentieth Century Fox headed by Darryl F. Zanuck who was known to interfere in his pictures. Throughout the film, even though this came out in 1944 at the height of WWII there is no mention of the war, (I wonder if would have happened if this had come out os Warner Bros. which was much more socially aware of its surroundings).which perhaps reinforces the shallowness of its characters. The version I watched was called the extended version and has a montage which has some scenes depicting Laura being 'made' into a 'lady'. The sequence was cut from the theatrical release because it was judged too off-putting in its decadence due to the war atmosphere.

Another example of Zanuck's interference (he had initially fired the first director because he didn't like the daily rushes when the film was first going into production) was the ending to the film. Supposedly he was viewing the finished film with Walter Winchell, a real life gossip columnist like Waldo Lydecker was supposed to be, when

Winchell told Zanuck he didn't like the ending of the film, that he didn't 'get' it. Thus the order went out to reshoot the ending. one wonders what it may have been. For my money, the best ending would have been to make Laura the murderer - that she was an extremely cold-blooded 'femme fatale', coolly manipulating everybody for her own ends. It would explain Tierney's cold demeanor throughout the film and been a real twist of an ending.
:devil::devil::devil:

[Citizen Rules]

Great couple of post Erasmus. I don't agree with all of your views on Laura but it's great to see some opinions being discussed here. I never knew there was an extended version. I wonder which one I seen. I don't remember any talk of Laura being a made lady. I didn't get that idea from the film. How many minutes was the version you seen?

It's funny you should say the best ending would have been if Laura had done it. I watched Laura 5 years ago, then when I watched it the other night I realized I didn't even remember who done it! During the film I had this vague idea that the film ended with Laura embezzling money from Clifton Webb and then faking her own murder by shooting someone else and then moving out of town to a new life. That would have been good!

[gbgoodies]

I had no idea that there was an extended version of Laura. I watched the version that TCM airs, so I doubt that's it.

Erasmus, I don't think I would like your ending of Laura. It's an interesting twist, but I don't think it fits the character. Laura seemed like she was more in shock than cold-blooded.

[Citizen Rules]

I watched Laura on DVD: 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment, 2004, 87 minutes

I never got the impression that Laura was a 'kept woman'. My impression was that she was smart and successful career women. When Clifton Webb agreed to endorse a fountain pen it started her career. Then she became successful and had a nice apartment. But if you remember Clifton Webb said only two things in the apartment were gifts: a vase and a clock. I don't think the film intended to say Laura was a kept woman.

[mark f]

TCM and DVDs show the extended 88-minute version, not the 85-minute one that was available for decades.

[Erasmus Folly]

I had no idea that there was an extended version of Laura. I watched the version that TCM airs, so I doubt that's it.
The extended version with the montage sequence is about 2-3 minutes long. It probably was restored to the film after WWII ended and in any re-release of the film or VHS or DVD copies. I have the Blu-ray DVD copy of the film.

[gbgoodies]

TCM and DVDs show the extended 88-minute version, not the 85-minute one that was available for decades.


I'm not sure how old my copy is. I recorded it on VHS before DVRs were around, and I copied it over to a DVD-R a few years ago. I'll have to re-record it the next time it's on TCM and see if it's the same version. Or maybe I'll just watch it again and check the time.

[Citizen Rules]

The extended version with the montage sequence is about 2-3 minutes long Was that at the beginning of the film?

[Kaplan]

Erasmus Folly, where are getting this information on Laura? If you go to wikipedia and read the part on the production you get a story with important distinctions from the one you're giving us, and one that makes a whole lot more sense. The source for the wikipedia article is a biography on Preminger.

For instance you make it sound like Preminger just stepped in because he was convenient, but in fact Laura was Preminger's personsal project all along, and he was only relieved from the picture because Zanuck returned from military duty and didn't like Preminger. So when Preminger was reinstated as director, he went back to all his original plans. The ending you're referring to has to do with an addition that Zanuck wanted that the whole story turn out to have all been in Lydecker's mind. That didn't go over, and Zanuck allowed Preminger's original ending be used.

And for the record Preminger had been directing films for over a decade before Laura, so I'm not sure what you mean by saying:


This film was directed by Otto Preminger and it was his first real success in films, and I think it shows since IMO it is not his best.

[christine]

I watched Laura on DVD: 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment, 2004, 87 minutes

I never got the impression that Laura was a 'kept woman'. My impression was that she was smart and successful career women. When Clifton Webb agreed to endorse a fountain pen it started her career. Then she became successful and had a nice apartment. But if you remember Clifton Webb said only two things in the apartment were gifts: a vase and a clock. I don't think the film intended to say Laura was a kept woman.

Hmm I'm not sure about that. I think she was successful but completely under Waldo's patronage. The taking back of the vase and the clock to a modern eye are like a peevish revenge on Laura who has stepped out from under his limelight , however cleverly he is playing that to the onlooker bearing in mind the end.

I'm unimpressed with her after she comes back. Ok I can see she could be in shock, but before that she seemed to be quite feisty so why does she turn into such ad wet blanket when she knows someone was trying to kill her. Where is the indignation? The anger? The will to find out what the hell is going on?

[Citizen Rules]

I agree that Laura is under Waldo's patronage, ala Pygmalion. But not a 'kept woman', as in trading sex for money or opportunities.

I view their relationship as platonic friends from Laura's viewpoint. Remember Laura is described as sweet, caring and never would hurt a fly. So I don't see the movie presented her as trading sex for opportunity.

From Waldo's viewpoint, he loves her but can't have her because Laura prefers attractive, muscular men, that's what he says. Waldo laminates over his puny body and is angry that his intelligences and wit can't win Laura's love.

[seanc]

You guys have me very intrigued for Laura. If the game tonight gets out of hand I may have to watch it tonight.

[christine]

I agree that Laura is under Waldo's patronage, ala Pygmalion. But not a 'kept woman', as in trading sex for money or opportunities.

I view their relationship as platonic friends from Laura's viewpoint. Remember Laura is described as sweet, caring and never would hurt a fly. So I don't see the movie presented her as trading sex for opportunity.

From Waldo's viewpoint, he loves her but can't have her because Laura prefers attractive, muscular men, that's what he says. Waldo laminates over his puny body and is angry that his intelligences and wit can't win Laura's love.

Citizen I think Waldo is gay. I don't think he wants Laura for sex, I think he just wants to preen in the successful job he's made of making her into a successful career woman, and he wants to sport her on his arm at society parties. He's not jealous of Shelby, I think he's more annoyed that Laura could stoop so low as to associate with such a dimbo as Shelby after all the work Waldo has put into Laura's ascension. From the rather little we see of her pre 'the incident' she's a bit thick as far as seeing what Wald'o's feelings are.

[gbgoodies]

Hmm I'm not sure about that. I think she was successful but completely under Waldo's patronage. The taking back of the vase and the clock to a modern eye are like a peevish revenge on Laura who has stepped out from under his limelight , however cleverly he is playing that to the onlooker bearing in mind the end.

I'm unimpressed with her after she comes back. Ok I can see she could be in shock, but before that she seemed to be quite feisty so why does she turn into such a wet blanket when she knows someone was trying to kill her. Where is the indignation? The anger? The will to find out what the hell is going on?


I thought that was strange too. If I were in her position, I would want to know everything about what happened, including who wanted to kill me and why. She doesn't seem very concerned about it.

[mark f]

So she can get killed again? :)

[gbgoodies]

I agree that Laura is under Waldo's patronage, ala Pygmalion. But not a 'kept woman', as in trading sex for money or opportunities.

I view their relationship as platonic friends from Laura's viewpoint. Remember Laura is described as sweet, caring and never would hurt a fly. So I don't see the movie presented her as trading sex for opportunity.

From Waldo's viewpoint, he loves her but can't have her because Laura prefers attractive, muscular men, that's what he says. Waldo laminates over his puny body and is angry that his intelligences and wit can't win Laura's love.


I agree with this assessment. I think their relationship is basically one-sided. Waldo loves her, but she doesn't love him in the same way. He just feels that if he can't have her, then nobody can have her, especially that gigolo Shelby.

[gbgoodies]

So she can get killed again? :)


She's being protected by a detective now. Isn't he supposed to make sure that that doesn't happen?

[Citizen Rules]

I agree with this assessment. I think their relationship is basically one-sided. Waldo loves her, but she doesn't love him in the same way. He just feels that if he can't have her, then nobody can have her, especially that gigolo Shelby.
We can look at the movie two ways:
We can think of the characters like they are real people and judge their actions accordingly...Or we can think of the characters as plot elements in a story. In that case their actions are designed for directing or redirecting the story. This is why Waldo is not gay. He desperately loves Laura and is jealous of all the men who have loved her. He says he destroyed one of them with his news column. And yet for all of his cynical wit, class and success, Laura only thinks of him as a friend. This lack of love makes him bitterly jealous and paints him as a suspect. From the script viewpoint this is setting up the Waldo character to have a motive for murder.

[Erasmus Folly]

Erasmus Folly, where are getting this information on Laura? If you go to wikipedia and read the part on the production you get a story with important distinctions from the one you're giving us, and one that makes a whole lot more sense. The source for the wikipedia article is a biography on Preminger.

For instance you make it sound like Preminger just stepped in because he was convenient, but in fact Laura was Preminger's personsal project all along, and he was only relieved from the picture because Zanuck returned from military duty and didn't like Preminger. So when Preminger was reinstated as director, he went back to all his original plans. The ending you're referring to has to do with an addition that Zanuck wanted that the whole story turn out to have all been in Lydecker's mind. That didn't go over, and Zanuck allowed Preminger's original ending be used.

And for the record Preminger had been directing films for over a decade before Laura, so I'm not sure what you mean by saying:

I got this information from Roger Ebert's review listed on IMDB but I admit I did not quite re-phrase it totally correctly. -

"The story of Preminger's struggle to get the movie made has become Hollywood legend. As he tells it in his autobiography, Zanuck saw him as a producer, not a director, and assigned Rouben Mamoulian to the piece. When the early rushes were a disaster, Preminger stepped in, reshot many scenes, replaced the sets, and fought for the screenplay. Zanuck insisted that another ending be shot; the film was screened for Zanuck and his pal Walter Winchell, a real gossip columnist, who said he didn't understand the ending. So Zanuck let Preminger have his ending back"

I know Preminger had directed films before this one but nothing this big or that had such a success,

[gbgoodies]

We can look at the movie two ways:
We can think of the characters like they are real people and judge their actions accordingly...Or we can think of the characters as plot elements in a story. In that case their actions are designed for directing or redirecting the story. This is why Waldo is not gay. He desperately loves Laura and is jealous of all the men who have loved her. He says he destroyed one of them with his news column. And yet for all of his cynical wit, class and success, Laura only thinks of him as a friend. This lack of love makes him bitterly jealous and paints him as a suspect. From the script viewpoint this is setting up the Waldo character to have a motive for murder.


I don't think Waldo is gay. There's nothing in the movie that points to that conclusion. He acts kind of gay because the actor was gay, not the character.

[Citizen Rules]

I agree.

I asked my wife who's way smarter than me:D, she watched Laura, and she said the same as you.

[Kaplan]

The funny thing when you watch Sunset Boulevard and In a Lonely Place back-to-back is you notice a certain trend in fashion. This is totally trivial but funny. Also in the one featurette I watched for Sunset, Billy Wilder is seen wearing the exact same shirt as William Holden.;)

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19575&d=1421669741


http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19574&d=1421669729

[seanc]

How are you guys watching In A Lonely Place? It is the only one I am having trouble finding in my regular spots.

[Friendly Mushroom!]

I get my DVD's from the library.

[christine]

Citizen and GBG, I hope you don't think I'm labouring the point about Waldo being gay in Laura but I just find the whole set up interesting! After you two being dead set against it, I wondered if it was just me thinking it. The reason why it's interesting to me is that it was the one thing that immediately struck me when I first saw Waldo that didn't strike me when I last saw the film when I was much (much) younger, so assumed it was cos I was more worldly wise now.

I googled Waldo and see that other people think the same. Indeed a well known writer on gay subjects claims that the original pre shooting script made Waldo explicitly, but those references were cut (Vito Russo in The Celluloid Closet) I can't find references anywhere else and have not read the book so no idea what his source was.

I don't think that Waldo even sees Laura as a sexual love interest, I can't see any evidence in the film of that at all. The night you see them together alone I think they're looking at antiques or something. To use Citizen's reasoning of Waldo as a plot element, then he kills Laura as he thinks he's going to lose influence over her after she gets engaged , and the influence and manipulation of a beautiful style icon is what he wants.
Of course the Hayes Code etc would not have allowed very overly effete or obviously homosexual characters in films, but Preminger specifically wanted Clifton Webb to play Waldo, but no idea if that was any kind of reflection on his sexuality or his ability!

On another subject, the Dana Andrews cop, Mark is quite creepy/pervy does anyone else think so?

[Citizen Rules]

Christine, I'm glad we're discussing Laura:) Ever since I came to MoFo that's what I enjoy the most, discussing films we just seen.

Dana Andrews cop, Mark is quite creepy/pervy does anyone else think so

Perception....it's one of the most interesting things about people. We all perceive the world around us through a filter of our own experiences.

I thought of Mark (Dana Andrews) as a totally cool dude. Nothing seemed to bother him. He was so cool and so laid back that during a murder investigation he spends his time, playing his little baseball game.

You mentioned that some on the internet thought Waldo was gay. I read that too. I also read a lot of people who had thought Dana Andrews and Vincent Price were gay characters. It's all about perception.

[Citizen Rules]

Sharp eyes Kaplan. Those are the same shirts. I do find clothing styles as they change over the years interesting to watch in old movies.

[Citizen Rules]

I was going to post this the other day. It's an official script from Laura, transcribed from watching the movie. It's pretty interesting as it's a record of what was said.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/l/laura-script-transcript-gene-tierney.html

BTW, did anybody else think Shelby (Vincent Price) was a gigolo?

[christine]

I was going to post this the other day. It's an official script from Laura, transcribed from watching the movie. It's pretty interesting as it's a record of what was said.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/l/laura-script-transcript-gene-tierney.html

BTW, did anybody else think Shelby (Vincent Price) was a gigolo?

don't know about a gigolo but he was a creep! what on earth did she see in him?

Thanks for the link Citizen. Which reminded me, what was the scene with Waldo in the bath all about? Is it usual to talk to complete strangers in the bath? That was weird I thought . Mark didn't even look uncomfortable, and even managed a look up and down Waldo when he stood up completely naked .

[Citizen Rules]

The bath scene was funny. After Clifton Webb stands up, Dana Andrews looks towards the camera and does this funny smirk. It's real quick but distinct....I wonder what he's thinking?

I've seen lots of old movies where 2 actors of the same sex are in the bathroom, with one in the bath nude. Sometimes 2 women, sometimes 2 men, but never a man and a woman. No one seems uncomfortable.

Even odder is movies from the 1930s, they sometimes show adult children kissing their parents on the lips. I think that's weird, but back in the day I guess it wasn't.

[Kaplan]

Christine, I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret Waldo's character as gay. Whether Preminger or the writers explicitly thought he was homosexual, he is clearly effeminate and Preminger wanted Clifton Webb for at least partly that reason. I mean, c'mon, he has a little swivel table for his bathtub.

[mark f]

I kissed my dad on the lips when I was I was in my mid-20s, but I'm a "funny guy".. :)

[gbgoodies]

Citizen and GBG, I hope you don't think I'm labouring the point about Waldo being gay in Laura but I just find the whole set up interesting! After you two being dead set against it, I wondered if it was just me thinking it. The reason why it's interesting to me is that it was the one thing that immediately struck me when I first saw Waldo that didn't strike me when I last saw the film when I was much (much) younger, so assumed it was cos I was more worldly wise now.

I googled Waldo and see that other people think the same. Indeed a well known writer on gay subjects claims that the original pre shooting script made Waldo explicitly, but those references were cut (Vito Russo in The Celluloid Closet) I can't find references anywhere else and have not read the book so no idea what his source was.

I don't think that Waldo even sees Laura as a sexual love interest, I can't see any evidence in the film of that at all. The night you see them together alone I think they're looking at antiques or something. To use Citizen's reasoning of Waldo as a plot element, then he kills Laura as he thinks he's going to lose influence over her after she gets engaged , and the influence and manipulation of a beautiful style icon is what he wants.
Of course the Hayes Code etc would not have allowed very overly effete or obviously homosexual characters in films, but Preminger specifically wanted Clifton Webb to play Waldo, but no idea if that was any kind of reflection on his sexuality or his ability!

On another subject, the Dana Andrews cop, Mark is quite creepy/pervy does anyone else think so?


I understand why some people think that Waldo is gay. I just don't agree with it. As you said, they really didn't allow things like that to be explicitly shown in older movies, so there may not be a right or wrong answer. I can see both points of view on this subject.

I can see what you mean about Mark being kind of creepy too, but I think it's just because he's falling in love with a picture of a beautiful dead woman. If you think about it, that alone is kind of creepy.

[gbgoodies]

Christine, I'm glad we're discussing Laura:) Ever since I came to MoFo that's what I enjoy the most, discussing films we just seen.

Perception....it's one of the most interesting things about people. We all perceive the world around us through a filter of our own experiences.

I thought of Mark (Dana Andrews) as a totally cool dude. Nothing seemed to bother him. He was so cool and so laid back that during a murder investigation he spends his time, playing his little baseball game.

You mentioned that some on the internet thought Waldo was gay. I read that too. I also read a lot of people who had thought Dana Andrews and Vincent Price were gay characters. It's all about perception.


I thought it was pretty interesting that Mark was playing with that little game. It didn't seem to distract him from his investigation at all. I have little games like that stashed all over the house. My eye doctor gave them to me when I was a kid to help my hand-eye coordination, and I still use them.

I don't know why anyone would think that Shelby was gay. I didn't see anything that even hinted at that.

[gbgoodies]

The funny thing when you watch Sunset Boulevard and In a Lonely Place back-to-back is you notice a certain trend in fashion. This is totally trivial but funny. Also in the one featurette I watched for Sunset, Billy Wilder is seen wearing the exact same shirt as William Holden.;)

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19575&d=1421669741


http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19574&d=1421669729



It's hard to tell in black and white pictures if they're the exact same shirt. They could be the same style, but different colors, maybe light blue and gray, but they certainly look like they could be the same shirt.

You must have great eagle eyes noticing that. :up:

BTW, it's Bogart wearing the shirt in the second picture, not Billy Wilder.

[christine]

I understand why some people think that Waldo is gay. I just don't agree with it. As you said, they really didn't allow things like that to be explicitly shown in older movies, so there may not be a right or wrong answer. I can see both points of view on this subject.

I can see what you mean about Mark being kind of creepy too, but I think it's just because he's falling in love with a picture of a beautiful dead woman. If you think about it, that alone is kind of creepy.

That alone is creepy, and that's besides staying in a murdered woman's house, riffling through her knickers drawer, smelling her perfume and just about stopping himself from getting her clothes out of the wardrobe.....maybe he's a closet transvestite :D:D:D:D:D

[christine]

Watched The Wrong Man. Thought it was pretty good.
The atmosphere of dread that Manny might've gone down for a crime he didn't commit was overwhelming. Loved the scene where Manny was in court, looks around and sees people not even paying attention to his case - chatting, doodling - how despairing . Yet Hitchcock has Fonda play Manny as calm with a faint air of bewilderment . The only thing I wasn't keen on was the speed in which Rose his wife has a mental breakdown. After the film taking its time unfolding Manny's case, Rose then goes from being supporting wife to cracking him over the head with a hairbrush in the blink of an eye.

[gbgoodies]

don't know about a gigolo but he was a creep! what on earth did she see in him?

Thanks for the link Citizen. Which reminded me, what was the scene with Waldo in the bath all about? Is it usual to talk to complete strangers in the bath? That was weird I thought . Mark didn't even look uncomfortable, and even managed a look up and down Waldo when he stood up completely naked .


I thought Shelby was much creepier than Mark. Maybe Laura liked him because she knew that he was going to be rich eventually from making horror movies? :laugh:

And about the bath scene, Mark didn't look uncomfortable, but he didn't look happy about it either. He kind of looked a little bit annoyed, but he could have just been annoyed at Waldo's attitude.

[gbgoodies]

Watched The Wrong Man. Thought it was pretty good.
The atmosphere of dread that Manny might've gone down for a crime he didn't commit was overwhelming. Loved the scene where Manny was in court, looks around and sees people not even paying attention to his case - chatting, doodling - how despairing . Yet Hitchcock has Fonda play Manny as calm with a faint air of bewilderment . The only thing I wasn't keen on was the speed in which Rose his wife has a mental breakdown. After the film taking its time unfolding Manny's case, Rose then goes from being supporting wife to cracking him over the head with a hairbrush in the blink of an eye.


His wife has the mental breakdown over time as more and more evidence seems to be mounting up against him because they can't prove that he's innocent. I think more time passed than we realize because he's trying to find the witnesses who can prove that he was elsewhere when the crimes were committed, and that takes time. It seemed like "the blink of an eye" in the movie, but I think it was much longer than it felt. Remember, they were already having the trial.

[Citizen Rules]

I haven't seen The Wrong Man yet.

Talking about Perception, I can't help seeing/hearing Vincent Price and immediately thinking of him as a creepy guy from all those horror films that he did. I doubt that audiences in 1944 would have viewed him the same way we do now.

[christine]

His wife has the mental breakdown over time as more and more evidence seems to be mounting up against him because they can't prove that he's innocent. I think more time passed than we realize because he's trying to find the witnesses who can prove that he was elsewhere when the crimes were committed, and that takes time. It seemed like "the blink of an eye" in the movie, but I think it was much longer than it felt. Remember, they were already having the trial.

Aye, but it wasn't paced very well within the film .

[gbgoodies]

I haven't seen The Wrong Man yet.

Talking about Perception, I can't help seeing/hearing Vincent Price and immediately thinking of him as a creepy guy from all those horror films that he did. I doubt that audiences in 1944 would have viewed him the same way we do now.


Wouldn't it be great if we could go back in time and see Vincent Price the way they did back then? He'll always be the creepy guy in the horror movies to me, regardless of anything else he did.

[Kaplan]

It's hard to tell in black and white pictures if they're the exact same shirt. They could be the same style, but different colors, maybe light blue and gray, but they certainly look like they could be the same shirt.

You must have great eagle eyes noticing that. :up:

BTW, it's Bogart wearing the shirt in the second picture, not Billy Wilder.

Seriously, you thought I didn't know that was Bogart? You didn't read my comment very well. I took a screen cap from the two movies. You want a screen cap of Wilder, here ya go. (And I notice now the shirt has an extra button, so it's not the exact same shirt, but it's the same style.)

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19576&stc=1&d=1421707671

[gbgoodies]

Aye, but it wasn't paced very well within the film .


Yeah, I agree with that. They don't show a very clear timeline in the movie.

[gbgoodies]

Seriously, you thought I didn't know that was Bogart? You didn't read my comment very well. I took a screen cap from the two movies. You want a screen cap of Wilder, here ya go. (And I notice now the shirt has an extra button, so it's not the exact same shirt, but it's the same style.)

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19576&stc=1&d=1421707671


I read your comment, and I know you know who Bogart is, but I just thought that you used the wrong name when you posted the pics. Thanks for the clarification.

[Citizen Rules]

The upturned lipstick on the top lip of Gloria Swanson makes her look like see has a permanent snarl:D

[Citizen Rules]

The Wrong Man

I watched this last night. What a powerful movie. Masterfully told in documentary style by Hitchcock. I swear I had a grimace look on my face throughout the movie. Hitch really puts the viewer in the mindset of Manny (Henry Fonda). I could feel this movie in my gut. It was like I knew what Manny was going through.

Henry Fonda is such a naturalistic actor that he never seems to be acting. I believed he was Manny. Vera Miles was the perfect anchor to the film. Hitch shows us Manny's family in such a wholesome manner, that we can't help but be stunned by what befalls Manny.

[Citizen Rules]

I watched The Wrong Man late last year and I thought it was a really good, and at times great film. The effects employed by Hitchcock in order to get inside the character and display his turmoil are top notch, it really does teach you a lot about film making. It's not a traditional noir in the murder mystery, femme fatale sense, but I can definitely see why some would label it as such. It's like a weird documentary noir, Hitchcock could have easily took the story and made it into a more conventional thriller but instead he uses it as an opportunity to study the human mind and what its like to be stuck in a pessimistic world.

Very well said, I agree with your analogy.

I studied the film carefully. First thing I noticed is the documentary style, the sets look very authentic, the music score low key. When Manny goes to get a loan, the loan office and the women employes look very real, not like Hollywood actresses on a set.

The Wrong Man (1956)...One short scene that I hated was the first night Manny spends in jail. He is shown sitting in a jail cell, and the screen begins to move in a spiral motion. I found that annoying. So did I. Hitch seems to have 1 or 2 trick shots in each of his movies. IMO they usually distract and look gimmicky. I still admire the film though.

I was impressed with the shot done through the jail door slot into Manny's cell all done in one take, no edits. That was skilled.

[christine]

Watched two today.
In A Lonely Place. Bogart totally believable as volatile screenwriter Dixon , and Gloria Grahame very good too as the love interest who starts to doubt her feelings. After the film I got sidetracked reading about Gloria Grahame's real love life :eek: . Sad she died in such sad circumstances .

Also watched Shadow of a Doubt. Also enjoyed this one. Joseph Cotten broodingly menacing as Uncle Charlie, and Teresa Wright terrific as the feisty and tenacious young Charlie.

As the thread gets longer it becomes more difficult to remember who has seen what. 15 pages is a lot to skim back and see who's written what about the film you've just seen. Stilts the discussion doesn't it?

[Citizen Rules]

As the thread gets longer it becomes more difficult to remember who has seen what. 15 pages is a lot to skim back and see who's written what about the film you've just seen. Stilts the discussion doesn't it?
Christine, I agree. What I've done is to go to the search on top of this thread and enter the name of the movie and then read through the search results. I then look for post of the actual review and then use the multi-quote feature.

If I was to do this over, I would have suggested we all watch the movies in alphabetically order, but optional of course. That would have put many of us posting about the same movie around the same time.

[Kaplan]

Christine, I agree. What I've done is to go to the search on top of this thread and enter the name of the movie and then read through the search results. I then look for post of the actual review and then use the multi-quote feature.

If I was to do this over, I would have suggested we all watch the movies in alphabetically order, but optional of course. That would have put many of us posting about the same movie around the same time.

I've been watching the movies in chronological order, which seemed to make the most sense, given that in theory you could see the evolution of the Noir. I'm not sure it worked out that way, but it still makes the most sense to me.

[Citizen Rules]

Chronological order, makes very good sense to me.

As soon as I stared watching The Wrong Man, I noticed the late 1950s fashions and the late 50s film style which was a movement towards more realism in both sets, acting and story.

[seanc]

Pickup On South Street: This one did not do a whole lot for me. I know love happens fast in Noir but it was very hard to accept what was going on with Skip and Candy in this film. I know there was probably a time when the communism angle played really well with audiences but I really could have cared less about that as well. I also thought the script and acting were below average. Moe was the bright spot. I loved every scene she was in, but that wasn't enough.

[Citizen Rules]

The communist angle really didn't gripe me either. For me, it was Richard Widmark's and Thelma Ritter's performances that made the movie. I was struck by the power of a couple of the scenes which I mentioned before.

BTW, Jean Peters caught the eye of Howard Hughes and was married to him.

[christine]

I watched The Big Combo a couple of nights ago. Great film.

I think I enjoyed it a lot because although it's a noir, for a lot of the time it is just a straight up crime film and it has everything you would want from that, a evil boss, a couple of henchmen, inter-gang rivalries, woman and past enemies etc. There seems to be quite a lot of sub-stories to be explored throughout, there's really an awful lot going on in this relatively short movie.

Enjoyed it too, nice fast paced drama

....There's of course the unusual but brilliant torture scenes which you'll never forget after watching this. There's loads of other weird but great little touches, an implied sexual act that seems very audacious for its time, and the hinted homosexual relationship between the henchmen.

I can't swallow any more salami :rotfl:

The implied sexual act, I'd never seen anything like that in a film that old :eek:


Helen Walker's weird performance (or character) threatens to derail proceedings, but thankfully again it's just a minor complaint. Many have said that this would probably be better regarded if it had a better main star or director, and that's probably right. It's a surprise perhaps that no one has tried to remake the film, it could potentially make a great two-three hour crime 'epic', at times actually, the film seemed to me like a one man version of The Untouchables.


yes, I agree, and about Helen Walker's performance too, but Jean Wallace's Susan character was insipid and unsympathetic I thought

[Citizen Rules]

How we all doing on watching the noirs?


http://www.openculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/filmnoirpage-e1319841938815.jpg

[Friendly Mushroom!]

8/13

[gbgoodies]

Sweet Smell of Success (1957) is on Turner Classic Movies TONIGHT at 10:00 PM EASTERN TIME for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.


CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS FOR THE CORRECT TIME IN YOUR TIME ZONE!!!

[seanc]

I have three left. I am going to try and be done in the next week. I want to be ready to go for HOF6.

[Pussy Galore]

I have 5 movies left.

[Citizen Rules]

OMG, you guys are way ahead of me, I have 9 more to watch.

[Kaplan]

I have Sweet Smell of Success left to watch and a rewatch of The Big Combo. Watched The Wrong Man last night. I definitely enjoyed it more than the first time I saw it, but the first half feels a lot stronger than the last part.

[christine]

I've watched 9 out of the 13.

[gbgoodies]

I've watched all of them, but I'm going to try to watch a few of them again before I submit my list. Some of them were first time watches for me, and I want to see how they hold up on a re-watch.


And don't forget, Sweet Smell of Success (1957) is supposed to air on Turner Classic Movies in less than four hours. :)

Check your local listings for the correct time in your location.

[Citizen Rules]

Sunset Boulevard...I haven't posted my thoughts about it, as I'm not sure what to make of it?

If Norma Desmond is suppose to be a caricature of a silent screen character. And if the film's story line is a nod to the 'over the top' films that were made in the silent era, then the film is brilliant.

But if Gloria Swanson is suppose to be playing it straight, then her performance is as campy as Bette Davis in What Ever Happened to Baby Jane. And if the story line is suppose to be a realistic one, then it has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.

So which is the film trying to be?

[mark f]

If you can't tell then you haven't watched as many movies as I thought. :)

[seanc]

Norma Desmond is definitely supposed to be a caricature Citizen. I haven't seen a noir yet where the plot would hold up to careful scrutiny. I love Sunset Blvd, one of the reasons, along with Double Indemnity, that I have started to get into noir. I am kind of surprised you had that reaction honestly. You are the seasoned Vet of this genre.;)

[Citizen Rules]

My question was two parts, the second part is: the story line of Sunset Boulevard...is it a take off on the old over the top silent pictures. I would have to say it is, otherwise the whole story line of the butler is ridiculous.

[mark f]

I think Sunset Blvd. works as a straight-up melodrama, a satire, a black comedy and a film noir. If you can accept it as at least those four (which I do), you will get close to the most out of it. :)

[Citizen Rules]

It certainly didn't work as a straight-up melodrama for me. So you're saying it works anyway a person wants it to work? With that kind of open ended definition every film ever made is good by some standard. Which negates any discussion of any films merits. Which would seem to make movie reviews themselves superfluous, wouldn't you say?

I think the nuance of my original question was overshadowed by the verbosity of my last sentence. Which ironically was meant to be written in noir-speak hence the holes in the swiss cheese line. That was fluff what I really want to know is....

Norma Desmond, are we the viewer to take her as a mentally deluded aging silent screen actress who is living vicariously in the past?

[seanc]

Norma Desmond, are we the viewer to take her as a mentally deluded aging silent screen actress who is living vicariously in the past?

That is most certainly how I took her. I am sorry if I was dismissive earlier. She has become a caricature, living as the characters that she used to be on screen.

[Citizen Rules]

No problem Sean:)

I would like to hear from Mark on this question:
Norma Desmond, are we the viewer to take her as a mentally deluded aging silent screen actress who is living vicariously in the past?

[Kaplan]

It certainly didn't work as a straight-up melodrama for me.

I think it works best as a melodrama. Maybe you're not into melodramas..? In melodrama you're allowed extremes in characters and plot and emotion, and thus you can accept his becoming a kept boy (Desmond's new pet monkey) working for this crazy lady and her strange butler. The very premise of the story, of it being narrated by a dead man, is a pretty good indicator that it's not your normal drama. Beyond that it seems a statement on stardom and what happens when you lose your stardom.

[Citizen Rules]

That's all true Kaplan and yes the dead man, omnipotent narrator wasn't lost on me. I get it and that is not what I'm alluding too.

We've all had discussions in the past about noir characters that seemed to fall in love to fast or detectives that acted in an unbelievable way, causing some to say those were plot flaws.

So far no one has picked up on what I was saying in my original post, it's not like it was cryptic.

[Kaplan]

That's all true Kaplan and yes the dead man, omnipotent narrator wasn't lost on me. I get it and that is not what I'm alluding too.

We've all had discussions in the past about noir characters that seemed to fall in love to fast or detectives that acted in an unbelievable way, causing some to say those were plot flaws.

So far no one has picked up on what I was saying in my original post, it's not like it was cryptic.

Okay, clearly Gloria Swanson is not playing it "straight" in the way I'm assuming you mean. It's melodrama. I dunno, I thought my post was clear. ;)

[mark f]

Since Sunset Blvd. works in ways that puny normal movies can only hope to achieve, it has the right to be taken at a very complex, very high, multi-conceived level. If you don't see it, that's fine. I don't recall what I thought it was the first time I saw it, but I did think it was great. And yes, I took Norma Desmond the way you describe her as a quick description of her, but the movie is more about Joe than her. Here's what I said about it in my Top Movies Thread.
Sunset Blvd. (Billy Wilder, 1950)

Brilliant film from Billy Wilder focusing on struggling Hollywood screenwriter Joe Gillis (William Holden) who accidentally falls into the "tarantula arms" of faded silent screen star Norma Desmond (silent screen goddess Gloria Swanson) when he tries to elude the guys who want to repossess his car. (I'm deliberately omitting one of the greatest beginnings of any film, where Gillis narrates his story from a most-unusual place and the flashbacks to what happened kick in.) Gillis has a flat tire and needs to lie low for awhile, and he sees a chance to make some money working on Norma's self-written script for her return to films. The downside is that her Sunset Blvd. mansion is full of ghosts from the past, including the wily butler Max (Erich von Stroheim).

http://filmfanatic.org/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/Nancy2.JPG

Joe still has some ties to "real life" in the form of his assistant director buddy Artie (Jack Webb) and Artie's girlfriend Betty (Nancy Olsen), a studio reader who earlier had rejected one of Joe's screen treatments but has her own dreams of becoming a screenwriter. Joe eventually finds himself torn between Norma's clinging, self-destructive tendencies and his desire for both people his own age and his friend's woman. Mixed into this situation is that Cecil B. DeMille's production people keep calling Norma about something, and she occasionally has her friends, "The Waxworks" (Buster Keaton, Anna Q. Nilsson and H.B. Warner) over to play bridge.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a150/tuesdayweld/SunsetBlvd.jpg http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/36644000/jpg/_36644066_sunset_afp300.jpg

The thing which makes Sunset Blvd. great and will continue to appeal to new audiences is that it tells its story smartly and satirically with basically no sentimentality. It's an acid-tongued dark comedy/film noir/quasi-horror flick masquerading as a tragedy, plus it's all about the movies. The dialogue is some of the sharpest that Wilder and his co-screenwriters ever concocted. The way the film uses Hollywood of the late 1940s is immensely enjoyable, from the scene at Schwaub's Drugstore to the visit of DeMille's set while he's filming Samson and Delilah. The acting is really quite extraordinary. Gloria Swanson has the showy part, turning her screen persona into something pathetic, and she plays it with no holds barred. Similarly, Erich von Stroheim plays a character similar to his own life (at least during the silent era) and presents a few of the best surprises in the film. However, William Holden gives the best performance, and I find it his very best ever. He has to play a believable character who straddles reality and the fantasy rabbit-hole world he fell into. He also has to say some of the wittiest lines and make it sound like he's conceived them for a script he's writing. All in all, it's tough to find a film which is anywhere remotely similar to Sunset Blvd., and if you can, it's a pale imitation.

http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_01_img0480.jpg

[seanc]

We've all had discussions in the past about noir characters that seemed to fall in love to fast or detectives that acted in an unbelievable way, causing some to say those were plot flaws.

I watched The Maltese Falcon the other night and I liked it, but again I was bothered by the quick infatuation with this woman that Bogart's character had. I think it is clear that if we love the characters we are quick to forgive these flaws, if not they become our problem with the film.

I don't think that it is just a noir issue, it stretches to all the genres. I really am going to try and make a concious effort to not let that become part of my criticism of movies anymore. I think through my favorites and almost all can seem implausible on some level. Even true stories are taken liberties with. Its an interesting conversation to have.

[Citizen Rules]

Since Sunset Blvd. works in ways that puny normal movies can only hope to achieve, it has the right to be taken at a very complex, very high, multi-conceived level. If you don't see it, that's fine. I don't recall what I thought it was the first time I saw it, but I did think it was great. And yes, I took Norma Desmond the way you describe her as a quick description of her, but the movie is more about Joe than her. Here's what I said about it in my Top Movies Thread.

Indeed I did see it. I mentioned that very possibility in my first post. If you would have taken the time to read my post, you would see the sentence of yours that I bolded in the quotes, reflects with what I was saying the film might be. My original post:

Sunset Boulevard...I haven't posted my thoughts about it, as I'm not sure what to make of it?

If Norma Desmond is suppose to be a caricature of a silent screen character. And if the film's story line is a nod to the 'over the top' films that were made in the silent era, then the film is brilliant.

But if Gloria Swanson is suppose to be playing it straight, then her performance is as campy as Bette Davis in What Ever Happened to Baby Jane. And if the story line is suppose to be a realistic one, then it has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.

So which is the film trying to be?

If you can't tell then you haven't watched as many movies as I thought. :)

Mark, clearly I laid out the premise that Sunset Boulevard might be more than meets the eye (however it is not a given that the director was shooting for a satire of silent films). My post was honest, I was just expressing my questions and trying to get the conversation going. I don't know why you felt the need to ridicule me.

[mark f]

I'm sorry. I meant no disrespect. I used a smilie to show not to take my comment too seriously. I was also trying to get a conversation going since I did read your post and it seemed like your points were a bit obscured. Although I feel the film does satirize social conventions and filmmaking in general, I never thought it satirized silent movies, their characters or their actors. I feel that Norma is a pathetic character.

[christine]

Not sure if I said this before but I love Sunset Boulevard, probably more with this last viewing. I've got no trouble with melodrama (please not in real life tho!) and if the film is good enough and takes my imagination then plot holes don't matter. :)

[Citizen Rules]

Thanks Mark:), no problem.

Christine, I liked Sunset Boulevard, but I didn't love it. To me it's on par with The Lady From Shanghai. Both films had there moments, but had elements of there story that I just couldn't buy.

[christine]

Citizen, not seen The Lady From Shanghai yet, but I think a lot of films do have unlikely elements. When you think about it tho you only have to look at some real life news stories to see people who make bad life choices or do terrible things - when you read those stories you think what the hell were they thinking of?
I'm not as incredulous that someone like Norma exists than I was when I first saw it as a kid. Then I thought Norma was ridiculously over the top, Joe was wet and Max was an idiot to stick around so long waiting on Norma. Now I see a much more interesting interdependant relationship between them all.

I'll try and watch Lady from Shanghai later and pick up a discussion :)

[Kaplan]

Watched Sweet Smell of Success. Terrific movie. A little talkative, but the dialogue is exceptional. It feels like a stage play, only I saw it was based on a novella by Ernest Lehman, who also co-wrote the script.

Before turning in a list, I want to rewatch my own nomination The Big Combo, but I've loved every movie nominated, and I enjoyed watching every one, whether it was the first time seeing it or was one I'd seen several times before. So how to rank them? I've been thinking I'll be ranking them based on how effective I personally thought they were as Film Noirs, not necessarily in the order I like them overall. There's not a one of them I'd be disappointed in winning the HoF.

[Citizen Rules]

I said I felt there were plot holes in Sunset Boulevard. I'm interested in hearing your guys take on it

I realize this is melodrama. Laura was a melodrama but that worked for me. Sunset Boulevard has a high 'fun factor', which I liked. BUT the amount of 'suspension of disbelief' was a deal breaker for me.


We learn in the film that Max the Butler had found the young Norma Desmond and made her a star. We also learn he was one of three promising silent screen directors, along with D.W. Griffith and Cecil B. DeMille. And we learn he was Norma's first husband. The film eludes to him being so smitten with Norma that he gave up his career for her, (well maybe I could buy that). But are we to believe he's so enamored with her he's willing to stick around and be her Butler as she has an affair with Bill Holden's character? Unless I missed something that's plain ridiculous. Not to mention if he was always the Butler after the divorce then he must have been there for husbands #2 and #3, serving them drinks and folding there clothes.


I normally don't copy/paste another persons review, but this crystallizes my problem with the Gillis characters.

"Yet the movie was going pretty well until the party. Until then I was well disposed, willing to be seduced, even if up to this point all what I had seen was a delusional has-been of an actress and a penniless, opportunist, scriptwriter stumbling into each other... Actually, what really ruined it for me was Gillis' frantic race back to the mansion, into Norma's arms...The only way Wilder could have convinced me of such a thing really happening was by developing a psychological portrait on Gillis as a deeply disturbed man, carrying a humongous mother fixation...That would have... given sense & coherence to what comes next. But the way it is shown, Gillis' behavior makes no sense at all. Also, freelance writers are the most independent minded people, the last human creatures still in the wild. To any of them, even death would have preferable to the lifestyle he chooses. There is no logical reason why he doesn't simply leave and goes to work as a dishwasher, waiter, whatever, instead of allowing his own emasculation by the hag. But he does even worse when he sends Betty packing, (to make the film's) ending possible...

I thought the same thing during the movie, no way did I buy Gillis' behavior coming from Bill Holden. After the movie I looked at the IMDB trivia section and seen Robert Walker had been signed to do the part of Gillis but backed out at the last moment. Walker a fine actor had the right stuff to be a kept man, a weak kneed mommy's boy who wants Norma as a mother figure. That would have been believable and downright creepy too. But Bill Holden as a spineless kept man? no way. You might as well ask Robert Mitchum to play a week kneed sycophant.

[seanc]

Maybe it is naive, but I just felt the butler was so in love with her that he was willing to stay through whatever. I think he knows she is sick and has become her protector. Maybe that is way too simple but I was willing to go along with it.

As far as Gillis goes. The personality that your describing above would also be the type of person willing to use somebody for personal gain, no? He certainly develops an affection and stays longer than he should. I thought his initial intentions were perfectly in line with the selfish bastard he is.

[gbgoodies]

Maybe it is naive, but I just felt the butler was so in love with her that he was willing to stay through whatever. I think he knows she is sick and has become her protector. Maybe that is way too simple but I was willing to go along with it.

As far as Gillis goes. The personality that your describing above would also be the type of person willing to use somebody for personal gain, no? He certainly develops an affection and stays longer than he should. I thought his initial intentions were perfectly in line with the selfish bastard he is.


I agree on both points. Max was in love with Norma, and he stayed with her just to be near her because it was better than not having her at all.

And Gillis was in it strictly for the money. He saw Norma as an opportunity to get out of debt.

[Citizen Rules]

Hi Sean, I'm going to reply in spoilers.

Maybe it is naive, but I just felt the butler was so in love with her that he was willing to stay through whatever. I think he knows she is sick and has become her protector. Maybe that is way too simple but I was willing to go along with it.I guess we can agree to disagree:) Here's my take: I can't think of any man who would love a woman enough to become her butler after a divorce, then live under her thumb, while she had affairs with other men. That just doesn't fly.

But I know why the film has the butler being like that. It's showing us how different men who have come into contact with Norma are so smitten with her that they will do anything. There's a line in the film where Max the butler tells Gillis that demonstrates this, "She was the greatest star of them all -- you wouldn't know her, you're too young. Men begged a lock of her hair. And there was a maharaja who came all the way from India to beg one of her silk stockings; later he strangled himself with it."

I would have wrote Max's back story different. I would have had him be Norma's talent agent, not a promising director. Talent agents aren't as prestigious as directors and it's more conceivable an agent would fall for Norma, than if it was a director. Also Max would not have married Norma in my version, BUT when silent pictures faded into the past ruining the careers of the silent stars (this was mentioned in the movie BTW), he would have retired to live with Norma as a butler. Everything us would be the same. The movie would have been much stronger that way.

[Citizen Rules]

And Gillis was in it strictly for the money. I disagree, the film shows Gillis becoming emotionally attached to Norma. They're several scenes that are romanticized. If he was just using her for money that would have worked.

[gbgoodies]

I disagree, the film shows Gillis becoming emotionally attached to Norma. They're several scenes that are romanticized. If he was just using her for money that would have worked.


I don't think he ever got too emotionally attached to Norma. He was falling in love with Betty while they were working on his script together. And as soon as he realized that Norma's comeback wasn't going to happen, he left her. He had no problem walking away once he saw that his meal ticket was gone.

[Citizen Rules]

I feel he was emotionally attached to Norma as he rushes back into Norma's arms with great tenderness when she attempts suicide.

I see it as, he was either falling in love with her, or more likely falling under her spell...as the film went to great lengths to mention all the men who fell under her spell, including the one that committed suicide over her.

The role was cast for Robert Walker, think about him in the role and how differently the film would have been and how much more sense their twisted relations would have made.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree:)

[seanc]

Sorry for not using spoiler wraps. I am bad about remembering them.

[Citizen Rules]

No problem at all Sean, you didn't spoil the film. My reply would have though.

I don't want you guys to think I hate Sunset Boulevard, I don't.
I had considered it as my choice for the Noir HoF. I find it more fun to watch than most of the noirs, so it scores high on the fun factor.

But just like some had problems with Orson Welles character in The Lady from Shanghai. I have problems with Max and Gillis characters. I still would list it as a top noir, but it's not my favorite one.

GBG, you said you might rewatch one or two of the noirs before voting. Might I suggest you rewatch Sunset Boulevard.

[Cobpyth]

Here's my take: I can't think of any man who would love a woman enough to become her butler after a divorce, then live under her thumb, while she had affairs with other men. That just doesn't fly.

You underestimate the power of love, my friend.
If you're in love with someone so deeply that not being near him or her makes your life completely meaningless and to such a degree that your rationality and individuality is completely consumed by it, you'll try to do absolutely anything to at least keep him or her in your life in some way, even if you have to be that person's servant.

It's totally plausible. People kill for love in real life.

[Kaplan]

I don't have a problem with the butler angle or Holden being a kept man, but as for the ending, I think no one's mentioned what I get out of it: He invites Betty to the house and makes her see the truth about him to send her on her way, because he realizes he's sold out, and he's no good for Betty. He's ashamed. He sends her back to the man she really loves, because he doesn't deserve her. I don't think it has anything to do with realizing Norma won't be making a comeback, because he knew that long ago. He already knew the script was no good and no one would want to make a movie with Norma Desmond.

Yes, it's frustrating watching him go back to Norma after the suicide attempt, but I buy into it personally.

[gbgoodies]

GBG, you said you might rewatch one or two of the noirs before voting. Might I suggest you rewatch Sunset Boulevard.


Yeah, I will definitely re-watch Sunset Boulevard. One of the reasons I wanted to watch the Noir films so quickly was so I could read all of the discussions about them without having to worry about spoilers. Even the ones that I had already seen weren't fresh in my mind, so I re-watched them.

Now, as people discuss them here, I have new things to watch for in each movie, like plot points, character flaws, etc.

There's a big difference between watching a movie by yourself and just reading other people's thoughts about it on the Internet afterwards, and watching a film at the same time that other people are watching it, and really appreciating the discussions afterwards. Interactive discussions make you think about the films more than just reading basic reviews.

[Citizen Rules]

I think no one's mentioned what I get out of it: He invites Betty to the house and makes her see the truth about him to send her on her way, because he realizes he's sold out, and he's no good for Betty. He's ashamed. He sends her back to the man she really loves, because he doesn't deserve herWell said, you convinced me on that point, it makes sense and it makes it a noir as he destroys himself in the end. I also agree that Gillis knew from day one that Norma's script was bad. When she refused to let him rewrite it, he must have known the script would never sell.

[christine]

Ok here's my take

I've got absolutely no problem with Max being her butler. Norma has lived for many years as a big movie star, waited on hand and foot. Max didn't necessarily have to have been with her waiting on her while she was married to husband 2 and 3. I don't imagine he was but what if she turned to him after her last divorce? And what if that was the time her career stalled? He had always been infatuated with her, so he took on the role of caring for her and as she started to become delusional , for appearances sake he took on acting as a butler....and so the years pass

As for Joe

I waver between thinking he's spineless and thinking he's decent, but the very fact the film is making me think different ways is a sign of its complexity. Joe takes on Norma's script as the pragmatic act of a man short of money, being pursued by bailiffs so unable to go home, but out of lazy acceptance of an easy way out he gets entrapped by Norma. He knows he's being manipulated by her but when she attempts suicide he goes running back so he does show kindness towards her. He is also a very decent man towards Betty who he sees is falling in love with him, but he sends back to her fiancé.
I don't think he's romantically attached to Norma, I think it's more like being overwhelmed by a forceful personality when you are feeling vulnerable, and then not being able to get a grip on your life when being overtaken by events.

[christine]

Oops I've taken so long to write that, Kaplan has said about Betty too. I agree Kaplan :)

[Kaplan]

I've made my list, but I'm going to hold off sending it in since there's no hurry. My number one movie was easy, and no, it wasn't my nomination. I forgot earlier, there was one of the films I didn't care for, and that was easy to put last. The next to last was easy too, because even though I like the movie a lot, I don't think it's strong as a Noir. It was everything in between that was hard to rank.

[seanc]

The Wrong Man: Pretty under whelming coming from Hitchcock. I can see why some would like the methodical procedural pace. It mostly made me want the film to pick up the tempo. Fonda is good and his character arc kept it from being a total disaster for me. I didn't care about the wife's journey at all. This is also one of those movies that blurrs the lines of noir. I know by the strictest definition it is. However if someone asked me outside of the context of the HOF to describe the film. I would call it an average thriller with a slightly above average lead.

[Citizen Rules]

I've made my list, but I'm going to hold off sending it in since there's no hurry.Yup, no hurry. I have messaged some to see how many more films they have to watch. So far everybody looks close to being done, except me. But don't worry I've never missed the boat at sailing time;)


My number one movie was easy, and no, it wasn't my nomination. I forgot earlier, there was one of the films I didn't care for, and that was easy to put last. The next to last was easy too, because even though I like the movie a lot, I don't think it's strong as a Noir. It was everything in between that was hard to rank. I doubt my own choice will be my number 1 vote. I found rewatching these noirs very interesting as there is a wide variety in their styles.

[Citizen Rules]

Sean, I really liked The Wrong Man. I do agree with you that I didn't care about the wife's journey either. It felt like it diminished the completion of Manny's story. Hitchcock told Peter Bogdanovitch the same thing. The reason Hitch said he included the wife's story was that it's part of the real events, so he felt compelled to include it. Truth might be stranger than fiction, but it doesn't make for a good ending to the film. I would have axed the wife's story line completely.

[seanc]

My choice won't be my #1 either. Lots of quality here. I love it.

[Citizen Rules]

Sean you've talked about specialized camera angles such as Orson using a Dutch tilt angle shot in The Third Man...so what did you think of Hitch's two specialized camera shots in The Wrong Man?

[seanc]

Sean you've talked about specialized camera angles such as Orson using a Dutch tilt angle shot in The Third Man...so what did you think of Hitch's two specialized camera shots in The Wrong Man?

Completely forget to mention that. The camera movement his first night in jail was sooo bad and distracting. Much worse than when he has people spin in his other movies, which I don't like.

What is the second one?

[Citizen Rules]

I totally agree with you on the spinning shot of Henry Fonda. It was distracting. On the DVD extra Bogdanovitch said the shot was done by mounting the camera on a free moving axis that was mounted on a wheel. Sort of like a cart on a Ferris wheel. So that as the camera went around a circle, it's lens was perpendicular to Fonda's body. It's interesting but like you say distracting.

The other shot which I noticed and really liked was when Fonda is first placed in a jail cell. The camera shows his solid metal door with a small opening slit which is dark. The camera then zooms in tight on the slit, then looks like it passes through the door and into the cell, where we see Fonda. It's all done in one shot, no edits. I was impressed with how they did that one.

[seanc]

Wish I hadn't sent the DVD out this morning so I could rewatch that scene. I missed it.

[Citizen Rules]

The Sweet Smell of Success

I watched this the other night and was very impressed with it. The dialogue is sublime. It's believable and sophisticated without being fancy. It moves along at a face pace and every word spoken either drives the plot forward or expands the characters back grounds to us. There's no superfluous words.

I also found the story of power and greed at any price riveting. It was like peeping in on a private conversation.

Burt Lancaster, was really good as the power driven Broadway newspaper columnist. He's so coldly cruel to Falco and to his own sister and so full of self importance. What a richly written and acted character.

And Tony Curtis really nailed being a sleazy operator who calls himself a publicity agent. I thought the bit about Falco being a man who wears many faces and can work every angle, revealing to his true nature. He really does wear many faces in this. Tony Curtis is great in the movie and despite how low his character goes....he's still likable, that's thanks to Curtis' performance.

[Citizen Rules]

Any thoughts on The Set-Up?

[seanc]

I enjoyed The Set-Up for sure. Not going to compare to those top tier ones for me. The actual boxing wasn't that great for me and the mobster aspect didn't grab me either. I never had a since of dread with the baddie. I liked the scenes in the locker room quite a bit. I found myself thinking about what was probably going on in the other locker room, and I figured the exact same thing. On any given night the person you went against last time could be the one your slapping on the back for good luck the next. I liked the sense of community. The film set a great atmosphere.

[Citizen Rules]

Sean, I learned a couple things from The Set-Up.

I had a bad quality version of it. The background was pixelated which distracted me and 'took me out of the film' for the first 10-15 minutes....So I learned, if I want to be serious about my film watching I need to have my attention fully focused on the film.

The second thing I learned was, 'not to anticipate what the film is going to be'. At first I was thinking, The Set-Up was slow, with very long scenes, and a simply predictable story.

But when I was done watching the film I realized two things: the predictability about the outcome is there so we can feel dread at Robert Ryans fate. And that the simplicity was by design and allowed the viewer to feel if they were in the film, as opposed to just watching the film.

Maybe I'm over analyze it;)

[seanc]

That makes a lot of sense.

I wasn't crazy about the transfer on You Tube for The Big Combo. I think it affected my enjoyment a bit.

[Citizen Rules]

That's kind of ironic, because I downloaded and tried to watch The Big Combo but it looked like @#$# Hopefully I can find a better video version of it, I still need to watch it.

If anybody has a link you can PM me.

[neiba]

This is what I've seen so far, except Sunset Blvd, which I will rewatch after I see everything!

Out of the Past

This film is the exact description of a Film Noir. It has every single element that describe the genre, stylistically and structurally.
The plot gets a little messy at some point but overall it's a very good noir, with great perfomances from the two leading men, Mitchum and a young Kirk Douglas, and a lot of good lines! Jane Greer is also nice as the incredibly seductive and ambiguous femme fatale though she lacks a bit of strength in some scenes.

The Third Man

One of the best Noirs I ever seen!
Beautifully shot, with an amazing lightning, great perfomances, a refreshing and exciting story with a lot of clever quotes and it ends in a very beautiful way! The fact that is spoke in german makes it a lot more realistic but the best part is the incredibly complexity of each character! No one is 100% or evil and each one has its reasons to do what they do!
The sountrack left me with mixed feelings, it could have a more dramatic tone sometimes, though I understand Carol Reed's idea!

Pickup on South Street

A very solid noir with a bit of Cold War paranoia that gives it a great touch, and with a beautiful soundtrack! The acting is quite good, and the hero is a very likable character! The main plot holds very well and it keeps you interested all the way through!
The romance is not very believable and the ending let me down a bit but overall is a good film!

In a Lonely Place

Bogart is amazing as always and Gloria Grahame was a very nice surprise! She might not be the typical femme fatale I thought she would be considering the first 20 minutes of the movie but she turns into a really special, sensible woman without losing the strenght a femme fatale should have!
It's extremely well paced, the story is interesting and it keeps you guessing till the very last second! And the ending is one of the most beautiful I've seen in a Noir!

Laura

The script is extremely well written and the direction is solid, making the story very well paced and keeping it quite unpredictable! The perfomances are great, specially by Gene Tierney who is an astonishing combination of talent and beauty!
However, the romance between Laura and Mark is poorly built and their first kiss looks like they have been married for years. Also, the lightning isn't very well used as in other great noirs.
It's a very enjoyable movie, overall!

Shadow of a Doubt

It may not be the best by Hitchcock but it's an extremely interesting movie! The story is probably the least attractive aspect, while the directing is really great! The junction with the soundtrack and the way the "Lippen Schweigen" theme appears everytime murder is mentioned are genius! I also enjoyed the acting by everyone involved but I think that the responsability for that should go to Hitchcock, for creating such complex and deep characters (even when they're completely secondary)
Overall, Shadow of a Doubt it's great technically though it lacks that suspense and unexpected plot twists that Hitchock is known for!

Double Indemnity

Great film noir! I loved the use of narration and soundtrack!
Every bit of tension is built perfectly and the final is amazing! MacMurray delivers an awesome perfomance and all the dialogues are so well written!
The lightning is very well done (it's still what attracts me the most in a noir)and it has a real femme fatale, seductive, evil but apparentely fragile! It may not be the best looking one but it fights with other weapons!

The Set-Up

The plot is pretty simple but so well executed! Robert Wise shows a perfect control on tension building and cinematography, using the first half of the movie as a prelude to an epic fighting scene!
I wouldn't agree with this being classified as a Quintessencial Noir - except for the last 15 minutes, it's more of a suspenseful sport drama, but I really enjoyed it nonetheless!

[Citizen Rules]

Nicely wrote Neiba. You make me want to watch those films again!

[Kaplan]

That's kind of ironic, because I downloaded and tried to watch The Big Combo but it looked like @#$# Hopefully I can find a better video version of it, I still need to watch it.

If anybody has a link you can PM me.

I don't get what you and Sean are talking about...I watched The Big Combo available from youtube and thought it looked very good. Did you guys try to watch it on a big TV? Maybe that's why? I watched it on the computer, and I think it's a 20" screen, and it looked very clear.

[seanc]

I don't get what you and Sean are talking about...I watched The Big Combo available from youtube and thought it looked very good. Did you guys try to watch it on a big TV? Maybe that's why? I watched it on the computer, and I think it's a 20" screen, and it looked very clear.

Yeah I watched it on my 60". Maybe I should try it again on my computer.

[Citizen Rules]

I don't remember what link I used for The Big Combo. I tried to watch it on a big TV. I think the compression ratio was high and the file size was small, which gave pixelation on my TV. I will watch it of course. I find another copy that I hope is better.

[mark f]

There are five copies on YouTube and three look pretty good. :)

[Citizen Rules]

Thanks Mark, I've downloaded a couple links so I will give it a go.

[rauldc14]

Going to be interesting to see how this one shakes out guys. I don't hear many negative comments, so the ordering could seemingly go any way here. I'm still rather intrigued to see a lot of these.

[gbgoodies]

Going to be interesting to see how this one shakes out guys. I don't hear many negative comments, so the ordering could seemingly go any way here. I'm still rather intrigued to see a lot of these.


Yeah, one of the best things about these specialized HoFs is that the movies are all films in a genre that we already know we like, and the movies chosen are some of the best of the best. It makes watching them much more enjoyable than a normal HoF, where there's a mix of movies I like, and movies that just aren't in my interests.

I especially like that these movies have so many of Hollywood's greatest actors and actresses in them. Many of these stars are people who I've heard so much about, but I only saw them in their later years. It's refreshing to see them when they were still so young.

I haven't started making my list yet, but I already know that the top half (or more) of my list is clogged. There are very few movies that will be easy to place in the lower part of the list.

[Friendly Mushroom!]

Sweet Smell of Success will be tonight along with another movie that I haven't decided yet (probably not a film noir.)

Thanks GBGoodies for pointing out the fact SSoS was on TCM. I taped it as soon as I read that comment.

[Citizen Rules]

Friendly Mushroom, I hope you enjoy the Sweet Smell of Success, I sure did. Hopefully you will post your thoughts when you watch it:)

Yup scoring these will be tough! I would say it's like the bell curve used in some schools. All the films are top contenders so those that are on the bottom are still great ones!

[seanc]

Sweet Smell of Success will be tonight along with another movie that I haven't decided yet (probably not a film noir.)

Thanks GBGoodies for pointing out the fact SSoS was on TCM. I taped it as soon as I read that comment.

SSOS is fantastic. It was nominated in the fourth HOF and became an istant favorite. Amazing dialogue.

[christine]

Coincidentally I've just finished watching Sweet Smell of Success. Really enjoyed it and for once thank god a woman took control of her life and walked away!

[Citizen Rules]

Christine if you like...
movieswhere "a woman took control of her life and walked away!" Try some early Joan Crawford movies. In most of them she's the main character, strong and her own person. One of my favorite Noirs is The Damn Don't Cry (1950) The movie cover might look cheesy but the film is a powerful story of a woman dealing with abusive men in her life. I almost nominated that one. I think you might like it.

[christine]

Cool I'll look for that one. Thanks Citizen :)

[Friendly Mushroom!]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/release_boxshots/3124-c40a62a1611d773bdc037c6bc737b6ec/555_box_348x490_original.jpg

5

Ditto Citizen Rules' review. (http://www.movieforums.com/reviews/1246197-sweet-smell-of-success.html)

:)

[Godoggo]

When is the deadline for this? Just curious so I can prepare for the next one.

[Friendly Mushroom!]

I think Citizen said April 1st.

[Citizen Rules]

Friendly Mushroom is right.....April 1st is the deadline. I've contacted everyone and most people are done watching the noirs or only have a a few more left, so this could wrap up sooner.

Godoggo, can you say what the next special Hof will be? I would like to join depending on what it is and when it runs?

[Godoggo]

It's going to be the third place winner B Creature Feature and Science Fiction Movies.
I've ran a couple of creature feature tournaments so I know people have a hard time with the definition. For anyone that thinks they might be interested this is a good place to get a broad idea of the movies that will be nominated http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creature_Features

I'll start it April 1st since both special HoFs should be over by then. I know you said you'd be going on vacation but if you're interested in joining, I could extend it a couple of weeks to help you catch up on the movies.

It's one I'm really looking forward to. I love those types of movies and will be a good time to let go of all seriousness and have fun. :)

[Citizen Rules]

B Creature Feature and Science Fiction Movies....that sounds fun!

Thanks for offering to extend it for me:) But I should be OK, as I will go on vacation and come back during the Hof so I will still have plenty of time for movie watching. It should be a fun one, I'll be there!

[seanc]

Laura: I really enjoyed this. Like a good noir should it had great characters and cinematography. If there is a negative it is that I found myself not caring all that much how things tied up. Which basically means I didn't care who she fell in love with. It is a small gripe, I was engaged throughout. Stiff competition this HOF though.

[Citizen Rules]

I can agree with your spoiler Sean. Did you follow any of the 'hot topics of debate' on Laura a few weeks ago? This film seemed to cause the most discussion.

[seanc]

I can agree with your spoiler Sean. Did you follow any of the 'hot topics of debate' on Laura a few weeks ago? This film seemed to cause the most discussion.

I am going to try and go back through tonight. I got caught up in doing other things last night. I know the sexual orientation of a character was part of that. Which character was that?

[Citizen Rules]

People were debating if Waldo (Clifton Webb) was suppose to be a gay character or if we were just picking up that idea from Clifton Webb the man, who was gay in real life.

Someone thought the detective Mark (Dana Andrews) character was unbelievable? (sorry I don't remember the exact words they used).

There was some talk about why would Laura go for Shelby (Vincent Price) who seemed sleazy. Some thought he was suppose to be a gigolo.

Last but not least was Laura a kept women by Waldo? Was she using him? Or just good friends?

[seanc]

Good questions. I want to give them all some thought, although most ran through my minde while watching. I will answer tonight but might be later.

[Citizen Rules]

No problem:)

I need to post my thoughts on The Big Combo which I watched last night.

[Citizen Rules]

So I watched The Big Combo. Awesome noir cinematography. Pretty darn interesting noir too as it delved into the inner workings of both the cop and the bad guy. The torture scene with the hearing aid was darn creative too. I liked the movie.

[neiba]

I watched Big Combo aswell! It's one of the best I've seen so far! The cinematography is incredible, specially the lightning! It also has a good sountrack and the acting is top!!
And that villain... spooky man!

[Citizen Rules]

Neiba, the soundtrack was awesome, great movie.

The downloaded version I watched had a garbled soundtrack. I never heard anything like it. The speech and music sounded fine but stuff like footsteps sounded like it was run through a reverb mixer. I swear my version sounded like they were walking in mud with a deep echo. Did anybody us notice that?

[Sane]

I've watched all of the movies submitted. My quick thoughts:

The Big Combo

One criticism I tend to have of noir movies is that they can be a bit "cold". I realise that is partly the point but I often find myself losing a bit of interest because I don't really care what happens to the characters. That was an issue with this one although it looked great and had some good lines.

Double Indeminity

Probably the first "noir" film I watched once I knew what "noir" meant. Apart from the start and Fred MacMurray falling in love and agreeing to kill someone after a five minute conversation it was great.

In a Lonely Place

My nomination. The reason I love it is because it is different to what I mentioned above about coldness - it actually develops a character that I cared about. Bogart's best performance IMO.

The Lady From Shanghai

Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of Welles. His films strike me as being very self conscious and his direction is the focus rather than the characters. That's probably just me who thinks that though ...

Laura

I enjoyed this quite a lot. Gene Tierney was the highlight in the first film I had seen her in and Vincent Price was quite distracting in a role I'd never seen him play before.

Out of the Past

Tourneur is a director I've been interested in for the last year or so and one I hope to see more of in the future. Good movie with great performances from Mitchum & Douglas.

Pickup on South Street

Really enjoyed this. The whole anti-communist angle was kind of amusing (although I'm sure it wasn't meant to be) and added an extra layer of interest to the film - in particular Widmark's character's reaction to it. Thelma Ritter was excellent too.

The Set Up

My type of movie with a real focus on characters. Will be high on my list.

Shadow of a Doubt

Another one that will be high on my list. Great direction from Hitchcock and Cotton crates a very "likeable" bad guy.

Sunset Blvd.

I kind of respect the greatness of this movie more than I actually enjoy it unfortunately. Technically it's a masterpiece but it had some issues that stopped me loving it. I understand the reasons for Swanson's acting style but it left me completely unengaged with her character and with Holden playing a role that wasn't really designed to generate empathy I was left not really caring what happened to anybody. Trying to be objective, it's a great film but subjectively I only found it to be pretty good.

The Third Man

This is a film that can keep me enthralled with it's cinematography alone. Visually it's a masterpiece.

The Wrong Man

Really enjoyed Hitchcock's direction and Fonda's performance but felt like it lost momentum as it went along and I didn't particularly enjoy the ending. Still, whilst it's not one of Hitchcock's best I enjoyed it.

[Kaplan]

The Lady From Shanghai

Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of Welles. His films strike me as being very self conscious and his direction is the focus rather than the characters. That's probably just me who thinks that though ...


No, it's not just you who thinks that. ;)

Pickup on South Street

Really enjoyed this. The whole anti-communist angle was kind of amusing (although I'm sure it wasn't meant to be) and added an extra layer of interest to the film - in particular Widmark's character's reaction to it. Thelma Ritter was excellent too.

I lot of people mention the anti-communism, cold war angle, but I've always figured it was sort of a McGuffin, but anyway it should be noted Sam Fuller was very deliberate in showing that the main character never acts for patriotic reasons. When he helps in the end it's for the girl. I think that was rather daring and interesting.

[Citizen Rules]

Sane thanks for your thoughts on the nominations. I agree with the majority of your opinions.

Everyone....Sane has sent in his voting nominations, so feel free to send in you're when your done watching the films. No hurry.

[Pussy Galore]

The Third Man: It’s actually one of my favorite movies. Some might say that it starts slow, but I didn’t mind it the noir atmosphere was there, the old postwar Vienna. Then when Harry Lime arrives in the film then it gets ever better. I really like the famous cuckoo clock speech and the whole conversation in the big wheel. The chase scene at the end is probably my favorite chase scene ever, because it does not rely on the physical prowess of the actors, but on lighting, music, camera angle and editing which makes me want to use the highly subjective term ‘’cinematic’’ or ‘’pure cinema’’. This kind of virtuosity in the camera movement that makes you in awe before the work of a truly great filmmaker. (I didn’t specifically talk about the performance, but Cotton and Welles are fantastic

In a Lonely Place: ‘’ I was born when she kissed me. I died when she left me. I lived a few weeks while she loved me. ‘’ the famous quote said by Dixon Steel in this movie that talks about love, confidence, etc. However, it does not in a melodramatic or even romantic way, but more in a cold, dark way which fits perfectly with a film noir. Great movie, probably my favorite Bogart along with Casablanca and Sierra Madre.

Laura: I definitely love Otto Preminger, Anatomy of a Murder and that movie 2 masterpiece. I love how the character played by Clifton Webb is very ‘’bourgeois’’ or ‘’sophisticated it’s very common for movies from the 40’s there was a general theme for the critique of the higher social classes. The movie is just fun, entertaining, the pacing is great the only thing I could maybe give it a reproach for is that I didn’t really care for the ‘’whodunit’’ aspect of the film. And I would personally would prefer the ending to be different, but it didn’t make the movie bad at all, actually it’s quite the opposite.

Sunset Blvd: That was a rewatch, I had seen that movie like 2 years ago when I was on my phase when I watched IMDB’s top 250 movies. I remembered liking it, but that’s about it. After watching it 2 years later I can safely say that now I love it and that it’s one of the best film noir. First, it’s always nice to see Erich von Stroheim in a movie, he has an undeniable presence even if he has a relatively part. Sure Norma Desmond is a very exaggerated character, but I can see some logic behind the idea that silent movie stars are living in the past, while they were celebrities. That in talkies the facial expressions weren’t as important as they were in silent films. It’s also interesting to see the relationship between Wiliam Holden’s character and Norma Desmond there is a generational shock the more modern writer and the traditionalist prima dona.

(I’ll write about others I’ve seen an other day)

[Citizen Rules]

The Third Man: It’s actually one of my favorite movies. Some might say that it starts slow, but I didn’t mind it the noir atmosphere was there, the old postwar Vienna. Then when Harry Lime arrives in the film then it gets ever better. I really like the famous cuckoo clock speech and the whole conversation in the big wheel. The chase scene at the end is probably my favorite chase scene ever, because it does not rely on the physical prowess of the actors, but on lighting, music, camera angle and editing which makes me want to use the highly subjective term ‘’cinematic’’ or ‘’pure cinema’’. This kind of virtuosity in the camera movement that makes you in awe before the work of a truly great filmmaker. (I didn’t specifically talk about the performance, but Cotton and Welles are fantastic

Yes, Cotton and Welles were fantastic! So was Trevor Howard. I was only lukewarm to Valli.

I wrote a full review on my review thread. Here's an excerpt.

"The Third Man is a well done movie with a tight, intelligent script. ...Joseph Cotton is perfectly cast as the likable American writer. His counterbalance is the surly British Major, aptly played by Trevor Howard. The love interest is the actress, Valli. She does a good job though she never really stands out from the crowd. For that we need Orson Welles. Orson's role fits him like a glove. Only Orson could play a rogue character charged with crimes and still be likable in an impish way. There's also a cute dog and kitty in the film, both have a clever reason for their screen time (as does the cockatoo).

I do have a complaint...The music score. Which was composed of a zither stringed instrument. The music score was both a distraction and annoying. The other complaint is the constant overuse of the Dutch Angle shot. Normally this is used sparingly and only to show great tension or chaos in a scene. Here it was over used."

[Friendly Mushroom!]

I liked the zither. :(

[Citizen Rules]

I liked the sound of the zither, but not in the movie. BTW I seen you disliked Touch of Evil, can I ask why?

[Kaplan]

I liked the zither. :(

Count me as one who loves the zither in The Third Man. It's daring, and it's seemingly at complete odds with the tone of the film, which seems a very modernistic, and still radical, approach to film score. I confess to not knowing what they were thinking when they used it, but you can be sure there was a specific reason.

And I've now turned in my list. I'd made it a few weeks back, and as I looked at it, I thought "why would I put this movie above that movie?" Then I remembered my criteria and decided it was satisfactory. it'll be interesting to see what wins.

[seanc]

I love the score in Third Man. That is something I rarely say about older films.

[seanc]

Where has In A Lonely Place been my whole life? I had never even heard of this movie before. I thought it was fantastic. My favorite Bogart movie of the 5 or 6 I have seen. Brilliant characters and dialogue. I love the sharp tounges of both leads. For a minute I thought they were going to stumble at the finish, but they didn't. The ending was great.

I am finished and will send in my list later today. This has been my favorite HOF so far. Noir is so in my wheel house. I don't feel like I have had enough to say but I just don't know that these are the types of films that need a lot of digging into. They are plot heavy crime dramas and either you respond to the plots and characters or you don't. They are the type of films that if you put them under a microscope, I feel like you could poke all kinds of holes in them. Not one of them is air tight, but I feel like I mostly respond to that messiness. These are flawed people making very flawed decisions. So if you respond to the characters you will probably suspend your disbelief. If you don't, you probably won't and will end up nit-picking the film, till its bad in your mind. Not one of these movies made me want to do that. I do have a very clear upper tier and lower tier in mind, but more on that when results are revealed.

[Citizen Rules]

Count me as one who loves the zither in The Third Man... It's unanimous, you guys like the zither! Making me 'The Odd Man Out', which sounds like a sequel:) I really did like The Third Man. The old sewer scenes were amazing. They looked great and what a great way to end the film. Did everybody catch Orson's head node to his friend? That was a nice touch!

Where has In A Lonely Place been my whole life? I had never even heard of this movie before. I thought it was fantastic..... I was going to have In A Lonely Place be my nomination, I love that film. I forget who choose it, but it's a great choice!

I am finished and will send in my list later today. This has been my favorite HOF so far. Noir is so in my wheel house. I don't feel like I have had enough to say but I just don't know that these are the types of films that need a lot of digging into.....I'm glad you enjoyed it! You had a lot to say and I appreciate you and everyone's contribution to this Hof!

I had lots of fun with this and now I'm a bit melancholy that it's ending. One of these days maybe there will be some type of tournament of unknown film noirs. I'd enjoy watching some hidden noir gems that I've never seen.

[Citizen Rules]

I'm almost done watching the noirs. I watched one more last night and man was it a good one! In a Lonely Place. It had been a while since I seen it too.

I'm surprised the film passed the sensors at Motion Picture Production Code aka Hays Office. Its subject matter was very dark and disturbing for the time. I can image audiences being shocked by what they seen on the big screen. Bogart was definitely an unsavory character in this one. It was one of Bogart's best performances, then again he's always good in his films. To Have and Have Not, Casablanca, The Harder They Fall, Treasure of the Sierra Madre are also fine examples of Bogart's talents.

I liked Gloria Grahame in this too. I thought she was excellent in the second half of the film where she played a woman torn by her fear of Dixon Steele and her love for him. Very believable in the emotions she portrayed. If you liked her in this, give the noir Crossfire a look.

In a Lonely Place, might be the first time a film had showed the protagonist as being nonredeemable. Sort of like an early version of Eastwood's Unforgiven.

[christine]

I love the score in Third Man. That is something I rarely say about older films.

Me too. On a lot of the film noirs I've found the swelling music to be intrusive , quite taking you out of the film, but The Third Man theme is exotic and exciting.

On here there's an account of how Anton Karas came to compose it told by his grandson
http://www.antonkaras.at/frameset_english.htm

[Citizen Rules]

Thanks for posting that Christine!

[neiba]

So, till when do we have to watch all the nominations? I still have 3 to watch!

[Citizen Rules]

Neiba, I had originally said this would be done by April 1st. So you have until then if needed.

Hopefully we can wrap this up this sooner, as that way another Hof can start.

[gbgoodies]

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, (or anyone who wants to re-watch it), The Third Man (1949) is scheduled on Turner Classic Movies TONIGHT at 9:30 PM EASTERN TIME.

CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS FOR THE CORRECT TIME IN YOUR TIME ZONE!

[Friendly Mushroom!]

I liked the sound of the zither, but not in the movie. BTW I seen you disliked Touch of Evil, can I ask why?

Sorry I forgot to respond. :(

I found the film kind of boring and the plot to be confused and jumbled. The characters did a lot of stuff that I couldn't really make sense of as well.

[neiba]

Ok, I'll try to have them all ready before March! :)

[Citizen Rules]

...Double Indeminity
...Apart from the start and Fred MacMurray falling in love and agreeing to kill someone after a five minute conversation it was great...

Double Indemnity
Great film noir! I loved the use of narration and soundtrack!
Every bit of tension is built perfectly and the final is amazing! MacMurray delivers an awesome perfomance and all the dialogues are so well written!
The lightning is very well done (it's still what attracts me the most in a noir)and it has a real femme fatale, seductive, evil but apparentely fragile! It may not be the best looking one but it fights with other weapons!..

Double Indemnity (1944)...This is a great suspense film that will keep your attention from start to finish. It moves at a slow, steady pace, so don't expect a bunch of action scenes, like car chases, but that works well for this movie. It has some minor issues, not plot holes, but just a few little annoyance type of things, but nothing that hurts the movie even a little bit. Overall, this is an excellent movie with great performances from the entire cast.

I think I may have already mentioned the minor issues, but I don't have time to go looking through this thread to find them, so I'll restate them just in case I'm wrong.

It doesn't make sense that Neff falls in love with Phyllis so quickly. He's barely known her for a day, and he's already willing to help her kill her husband?

I understand why they needed a signal when Neff was hiding in the car, but why would they use three horn honks? Why would they risk using something loud that will draw attention to the car, when they could have just as easily used a code word instead?

...I had kinda forgotten how pulpish a lot of the dialogue was in Double Indemnity. I'm not complaining, but every time I hear the dialogue about the speed limit, and "how fast was I going?", it sticks out as the type of corny dialogue that can sound so right in these types of stories. I think it was gbgoodies who thought they fell in love too quick, but I've always assumed it was blatantly clear that it was lust on his part and manipulation on hers. One of these days I'm going to do more than skim over the novel and actually sit down and read it.


I love Double Indemnity but Edward G Robinson makes it next level for me. His scenes are so damn good.
... I went through this thread and I multi-quoted all the comments I could find on Double Indemnity, which I watched last night and really liked!

Some consider it to be the first film noir, that's debatable of course, but it's certainly got all the noir elements down pat.

I have no complaints about the film, none at all. I even liked Stanwyck's cheap blonde wig. She looks cheap, that's the idea. She looks the part and does a great job acting!

Fred MacMurray seemed to fall in love too fast. Only this film is not about love, it's about lust and sex. She's hot and he's a womanizer and not to moral himself. He's looking for action and excitement and that's what he gets.

The story and the charcters are so primal that it's easy to forget that the cinematography and lighting is stunning.

My review here:
http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=1256496#post1256496

[gbgoodies]

I went through this thread and I multi-quoted all the comments I could find on Double Indemnity, which I watched last night and really liked!

Some consider it to be the first film noir, that's debatable of course, but it's certainly got all the noir elements down pat.

I have no complaints about the film, none at all. I even liked Stanwyck's cheap blonde wig. She looks cheap, that's the idea. She looks the part and does a great job acting!

Fred MacMurray seemed to fall in love too fast. Only this film is not about love, it's about lust and sex. She's hot and he's a womanizer and not to moral himself. He's looking for action and excitement and that's what he gets.

The story and the characters are so primal that it's easy to forget that the cinematography and lighting is stunning.

My review here:
http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=1256496#post1256496


It still doesn't work for me, even if it's about lust and sex. Maybe he would cheat on his wife. Maybe he would run away with her. Maybe he would even do something crazy like rob a bank for her. But murder? He wasn't a killer before he met her. It's hard to believe that he would commit murder for a girl that he just met.

[Kaplan]

It still doesn't work for me, even if it's about lust and sex. Maybe he would cheat on his wife. Maybe he would run away with her. Maybe he would even do something crazy like rob a bank for her. But murder? He wasn't a killer before he met her. It's hard to believe that he would commit murder for a girl that he just met.

What wife?

And I think his agreeing to kill her husband is the essence of what makes Noir what it is. With one act he could have everything he could dream of, and he's lured into this plot because of lust. Lust, greed, and hubris drive the motivations of many of the characters in Noirs, and leads to their downfall. That's my take on it anyway.

[Citizen Rules]

You need to be a guy for this film to work;) Barbara Stanwyck is enough motivation for any salesman.:D

Seriously, many film critics agree with you. I'm watching the commentary track on the DVD by a screen writer who knew Billy Wilder and this point was brought up. I wish there was some missing scene that showed us more what made him agree to do it.

[gbgoodies]

What wife?

And I think his agreeing to kill her husband is the essence of what makes Noir what it is. With one act he could have everything he could dream of, and he's lured into this plot because of lust. Lust, greed, and hubris drive the motivations of many of the characters in Noirs, and leads to their downfall. That's my take on it anyway.


I used "wife" just as an example, meaning that I could see him doing something bad for her after only knowing her for such a short period of time, but I can't see the leap to him committing murder for someone that he just met.

[Kaplan]

It doesn't help that it's Fred MacMurray. A different actor known for playing more sinister roles would have been more convincing, but I think it's because he does have the reputation as the "nice guy" that makes the movie work so well overall.

[Citizen Rules]

...And I think his agreeing to kill her husband is the essence of what makes Noir what it is. With one act he could have everything he could dream of, and he's lured into this plot because of lust. Lust, greed, and hubris drive the motivations of many of the characters in Noirs, and leads to their downfall. That's my take on it anyway.

I agree with that.

I seen this film years ago and I had thought of Fred MacMurray as a nice guy who's duped into committing murder. I even said that at the beginning of the Noir Hof.

After watching this last night, I see that he was a seedy, greedy and self indulgent character. His boss jokes with him when he's on phone and calls Phyllis, 'Margie'. His boss says 'Margie drinks from the bottle'. That's a pretty strong clue that MacMurray's character has his mind in the gutter and likes fast women.

Even in the end he doesn't seem regretful that he killed someone, he's only regretful he messed up his own life. He's a self centered son of a bitch, we just think he's nice because he played the Nutty Professor and the father on My Three Sons.

[Citizen Rules]

One thing I want to add about Walter (Fred MacMurray), towards the end of the film Phyllis says to Walter 'that he came up with the entire plan for the murder.' Indeed Walter is quite enthusiastic about planning the perfect crime. in the beginning of the film.

So to answer the question what made him fall in love with Phyllis and agree so quickly to murder her husband....my answer is he didn't do it for her, he did it for himself and he didn't need convincing.

One clue to this is a scene where Edward G Robinson offers him the job of insurance investigator, which is prestigious but pays less than what MacMurray makes as a salesman. He turns the job down as he wants more money.

[Friendly Mushroom!]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/26/Pickuponsouthstreet.jpg/220px-Pickuponsouthstreet.jpg

4

Good Noir.

The performances were good and unlike most "person accidentally doing something and is wanted by bad guys
(Ex. Hitchcock films like Man who Knew Too Much or North by Northwest) the film is more about talking and for lack of a better term, the characters plotting on what will happen next.

The last films I need to watch are Set-Up, Lady from Shanghai and Big Combo. If I have extra time (which probably be unlikely) I will re-watch Third Man and Shadow of a Doubt. I really should though.

[Citizen Rules]

I'll be watching that one tonight. I already watched all the special features on the DVD with interviews of Sam Fuller. He's quite the character, how come folks don't talk about him much?

[christine]

And I think his agreeing to kill her husband is the essence of what makes Noir what it is. With one act he could have everything he could dream of, and he's lured into this plot because of lust. Lust, greed, and hubris drive the motivations of many of the characters in Noirs, and leads to their downfall. That's my take on it anyway.

This is true, and the urgent nature of noir films makes the plot have to unfold quickly. You can't have a noir film with segments labelled 'and now six months later' you have to incorporate that into your viewing. The strength of Double Indemnity is that most of us can actually believe that Walter Neff is already restless and thinking he's better than the job he's doing, so just ripe for Phyliss's picking . Then things get out of hand and he's led by the nose and all for sexual attraction.
I think we've all read real life stories about people falling under the influence of other people and committing terrible acts. Film noir just condenses those stories for dramatic effect.

[neiba]

Sweet Smell of Success (1957)

A great noir with great perfomances (especially from Tony Curtis who as an incredible magnetism), great soundtrack and remarkable writing!
The story didn't do much for me, and the lightning didn't impress as much as in other noirs, but there are some really interesting technic detalis! A great nomination overall!

[christine]

I've got real problems finding The Set Up. Might have to invest in the DVDs. Better be good!

[Citizen Rules]

Christine hi, I can see if I can find it online for you, that's where I found it. I'll check on that and message you tomorrow, it's midnight PSTime and I'm logging off right now. CR

[seanc]

I've got real problems finding The Set Up. Might have to invest in the DVDs. Better be good!

I am not never sure what you guys have access to. I rented from Vudu if that is a UK thing. Really good streaming service if its available there.

[christine]

Thanks for your help CR and GBG, I've got The Set Up now.
I don't think Vudu is in the UK Sean. Looks like a good place to see older films tho. Netflix is rubbish for that here.

Also - only two more to watch but all these films are going to be very hard to put in order! I've got a three on a 9/10 , three on an 8/10 and the rest 7s. We really picked some cracking films between us all - well done!

[Citizen Rules]

I enjoyed all the noirs:). Like Christine said, all were excellent! I was surprised by one thing. I really thought by having only noirs in this Hof that they would be easy to compare, but they're not. There's a wide range of styles in this group of films, which is cool! The Set-Up had a much different feel than the other films. I liked it.

[christine]

Watched The Set Up last night. A film that really does deserve the adjective gritty. Seemed very realistic, mean and dirty and sweaty. I'll be surprised if there was a better boxing film than this. Even Raging Bull which I think is a brilliant film, doesn't feel as visceral as this one. There's nice male cameraderie in the changing room, and a good range of ring side onlookers.
Stoker's wife could've been just a sideline but I really liked the way that her story was the one that made you understand the hardships of a life lived travelling from ring to ring. Her life was one of cheap hotel rooms and devotion to her bloke - see her warming the soup for when he came back, how touching was that?

[Citizen Rules]

Question: In The Set-Up his wife goes to a freeway overpass bridge and stares down at the road below. Did anybody have any thoughts of what was going to happen at the point in the movie?

[seanc]

I can see where your obviously going with that. It has been a couple months at this point but I don't remember thinking the film would take that hard of a turn. Something like that also would not have fit that character at all in my opinion.

[christine]

You think she might've committed suicide? No definately not! She would never have left Stoker on his own.

[Citizen Rules]

I wasn't sure where the film was going with the bridge scene. It went on for a long time, so I took it that the wife would make a pivotal decision, it seemed she was pondering what to do.

I did at first think she was going to jump. Then I thought the vehicles rolling by were symbolic and she would be leaving her husband. But she did neither. It was an interesting scene as it made me think.

[christine]

Thinking about the bridge scene I thought it as expressing how long the time seemed that she was trying to waste while waiting for her husband to return, beaten again.

[Citizen Rules]

That makes sense. I'm pretty sure that's what the director had in mind. That and giving the viewers a quiet lull, before the third act kicks into high gear.

[Citizen Rules]

This is March 3rd, we have until April 1st to get your voting list in, before it's too late...

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/zhumaldin/Detour/Detour194508116216-22-21.jpg

[christine]

Only got one more to watch :)

[seanc]

How many you got so far Citizen? I haven't seen Holden or Erasmus post much. I know Holden probably already had seen them all but I hope he remembers to send a list.

[Citizen Rules]

I'm done with the films. I haven't felt much like posting these days. I do log into MoFo daily to check my messages and this thread.

I will bump this thread with 2 weeks to go and also send out PMs to everyone who hasn't sent a list in. The deadline for all nominations is by April 1st.

Thank you all for your support during my time here at MoFo. I had fun talking to you all. Citizen Rules

[Friendly Mushroom!]

Tonight

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/The_Big_Combo_poster.jpg

For Film Noir HoF

[rauldc14]

I'm done with the films. I haven't felt much like posting these days. I do log into MoFo daily to check my messages and this thread.

I will bump this thread with 2 weeks to go and also send out PMs to everyone who hasn't sent a list in. The deadline for all nominations is by April 1st.

Thank you all for your support during my time here at MoFo. I had fun talking to you all. Citizen Rules

You make it sound like you are leaving Citizen. Say it isn't so.

[Friendly Mushroom!]

http://filmmakeriq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/The-Big-Combo-Ending.jpg

The Big Combo is one of the best films nominated for this HoF.

4.5

MR. BROWN!!!!

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d/d3/Richard_Conte.jpg/400px-Richard_Conte.jpg

He was best part.

[neiba]

Finised my last watching: The Lady from Shangai and it looks like I left the best for the end! What an amazing movie!!!
Amazing writing, superbly acted and technically impressive! The script is awesome and unpredictable even after almost 70 years!

Great nomination Daniel M, it's the first one I like as much as my own!

[gbgoodies]

I've been re-watching most of these movies, and I've been working on compiling my list. There were some great nominations in this HoF, and it's been really hard trying to put them in order, but I'm almost ready to submit it. I don't think there was even one bad movie nominated in this HoF, and it's one of those lists that if I compiled it a day earlier or a day later, some of these movies could easily change positions.

I was surprised at how many movies changed positions from my first viewings of all the movies. Some movies were better after a re-watch, and some were about the same. I found some actors drew me in better and I started to actively look for more of their movies.

After this HoF, I'm looking forward to more of the specialty HoFs. I think this was a great idea. I just wanted to say Thank You to everyone who participated in this HoF for picking such great movies. :up:

What did everyone else think of the overall list of nominees?

[Citizen Rules]

What did everyone else think of the overall list of nominees? Like you said, every single one of the nominations were excellent. I though all these Film Noirs would be like comparing apples to apples, but no...they are all very unique and different.

I haven't made my list yet. If I rated films for enjoyment factor, I would have a different list than for excellencies factor.

Decisions, decisions.:p

[christine]

Watched my last film yesterday so will be submitting my list soon. There is nothing between the three I have at the very top . I need a joint first place!

[christine]

I've submitted my list. I can say that I really enjoyed all of the films . The top 5 I've chosen are just brilliant, but like I said to CR my numbers 6-13 could easily have swapped around , there was only a fag paper between them (as we say in Liverpool) ;)

[gbgoodies]

I've submitted my list. I can say that I really enjoyed all of the films . The top 5 I've chosen are just brilliant, but like I said to CR my numbers 6-13 could easily have swapped around , there was only a fag paper between them (as we say in Liverpool) ;)


I've never heard that expression before. For some reason, it doesn't sound politically correct. :shrug:

[mark f]

http://images.all-free-download.com/images/graphiclarge/cigarette_rolling_papers_209940.jpg

[mark f]

A pattern?
I need a joint...
... there was only a fag paper between them (as we say in Liverpool) ;)
http://images.all-free-download.com/images/graphiclarge/cigarette_rolling_papers_209940.jpg

[Camo]

Yeah as Mark posted it's for rolling tobacco. Some other names for them here are Rolling Papers, Skins or just it's brand name like Zig Zag or Rizzla. It has nothing to do with Gay people :rotfl:

[gbgoodies]

http://images.all-free-download.com/images/graphiclarge/cigarette_rolling_papers_209940.jpg

Yeah as Mark posted it's for rolling tobacco. Some other names for them here are Rolling Papers, Skins or just it's brand name like Zig Zag or Rizzla. It has nothing to do with Gay people :rotfl:


I guess I lead a sheltered life because I've never seen or heard of that stuff. What is that used for?

[Swan]

I guess I lead a sheltered life because I've never seen or heard of that stuff. What is that used for?

Camo said it, haha. Rolling tobacco. And marijuana. :D

[gbgoodies]

Camo said it, haha. Rolling tobacco. And marijuana. :D


Isn't tobacco sold already rolled as cigarettes? Why would someone need (or want) to roll it themselves?

[gbgoodies]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think if you want to smoke tobacco without the added crap that comes in cigs, you can roll your own.


Is it legal to make your own cigarettes?

[Swan]

Yeah, it's entirely legal.

However, I deleted that last post because I'm not 100% sure that was right. I did a quick Google search and the answer seems to be because it's cheaper.

[gbgoodies]

Yeah, it's entirely legal.

However, I deleted that last post because I'm not 100% sure that was right. I did a quick Google search and the answer seems to be because it's cheaper.


I'm still not sure why anyone would want to smoke anything, but at least I learned something new today. :)

[mark f]

Here's (http://www.imdb.com/search/keyword?keywords=rolling-a-cigarette) a very incomplete list of movies where somebody rolled their own, including John Wayne, Gary Cooper. Ben Johnson and Yves Montand.

[Daniel M]

Really? You've never heard of rolling you're on cigarettes, that's odd. Maybe it's not as popular in America. I think in Pulp Fiction Vincent Vega rolls quite a few in the diner scene too.

But yeah, it's a lot cheaper, a pack of like 10 cigarettes is like the same as the paper, filters and tobacco that you could roll 25+ with.

Anyway, back on topic I still have Pickup on South Street to get to, might watch it later :)

[gbgoodies]

Here's (http://www.imdb.com/search/keyword?keywords=rolling-a-cigarette) a very incomplete list of movies where somebody rolled their own, including John Wayne, Gary Cooper. Ben Johnson and Yves Montand.

Thanks for the list. I've seen a few of those movies. I guess I just didn't notice them rolling cigarettes.


Really? You've never heard of rolling you're on cigarettes, that's odd. Maybe it's not as popular in America. I think in Pulp Fiction Vincent Vega rolls quite a few in the diner scene too.

But yeah, it's a lot cheaper, a pack of like 10 cigarettes is like the same as the paper, filters and tobacco that you could roll 25+ with.


No, but I don't smoke, so maybe that's why I never heard of it. The strange thing is that when I was in high school, I worked in a store that sold cigarettes, but I still don't know much about them.


Anyway, back on topic I still have Pickup on South Street to get to, might watch it later :)

Pickup on South Street is one of the movies that went up on my list after a re-watch.

[Citizen Rules]

Thanks for the list. I've seen a few of those movies. I guess I just didn't notice them rolling cigarettes. I've seen that in old movies and in modern period piece movies. Especially in westerns, cowboys are always rolling their own. I seen that in a movie within the last week.... And that's all I know about it, I don't smoke never have.

[gbgoodies]

I've seen that in old movies and in modern period piece movies. Especially in westerns, cowboys are always rolling their own. I seen that in a movie within the last week.... And that's all I know about it, I don't smoke never have.


I don't watch a lot of westerns, so I probably never noticed it. I guess I just never really thought about what they were doing, so it didn't stick in my mind if I did see them rolling cigarettes.

I don't smoke either, and my friends all know not to smoke when they're with me because I hate smoking.

[Citizen Rules]

In real life, 100 years ago, many a cowboy would carry a bag of tobacco and rolling papers with them, as they didn't have much money or access to the city stores. People who smoked store bought cigarettes were sometimes called 'green horns' by the cowboys. I've seen that as a story element where some city slicker tries to ride the range with the rough and tumble cowboys. The city slicker has store bought smokes and the cowboys roll their own. I watch a lot of westerns.

[gbgoodies]

In real life, 100 years ago, many a cowboy would carry a bag of tobacco and rolling papers with them, as they didn't have much money or access to the city stores. People who smoked store bought cigarettes were sometimes called 'green horns' by the cowboys. I've seen that as a story element where some city slicker tries to ride the range with the rough and tumble cowboys. The city slicker has store bought smokes and the cowboys roll their own. I watch a lot of westerns.


I've only seen a few of the well known westerns, like High Noon and Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, and I watched My Darling Clementine a few days ago because it was on one of the cable movie channels.

Maybe we should do a Western HoF?

[Citizen Rules]

I would love to do a Western Hof, that's a great idea :idea:

In the last week I watched, The Long Riders (1980) which featured several sets of acting brothers...and Broken Trail mini series (2006) with Robert Duvall. Both were good too. I love westerns as much as I love musicals and sci-fi.

[gbgoodies]

I would love to do a Western Hof, that's a great idea :idea:

In the last week I watched, The Long Riders (1980) which featured several sets of acting brothers...and Broken Trail mini series (2006) with Robert Duvall. Both were good too. I love westerns as much as I love musicals and sci-fi.


I've never been a big fan of westerns, but I have nothing against them, so I'd be interested in watching some westerns that people here consider to be the best of the best.

I remember watching some western TV shows when I was a kid, like "The Lone Ranger", but for some reason, I just never got into the western movies, but I like the few that I've seen.

[Swan]

I'd love a Western HoF!

[Kaplan]

Here's (http://www.imdb.com/search/keyword?keywords=rolling-a-cigarette) a very incomplete list of movies where somebody rolled their own, including John Wayne, Gary Cooper. Ben Johnson and Yves Montand.

Yeah, it doesn't even include the first movie I think of in which a character rolls their own...The Maltese Falcon. He doesn't even smoke that much in the movie, but it's always stood out to me. Here you can see Bogart as Sam Spade rolling a cigarette at the very beginning of the clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGuNGXmQZSE

[mark f]

Yeah, and Peter Lorre's character Joel Cairo showed off his predilection for sucking in that photo/video too. Sam Spades's secretary Effie rolls him one too earlier in the movie. :)

[gbgoodies]

I sent my list. This was probably the hardest list to rank because all of the movies were so good. There were several movies that I kept shifting up and down my list because they were so close, but I finally settled on a final list.

[neiba]

Roll-up cigarettes is very used in Portugal, specially with tobacco prices so high as they are today! Most of my friends smoke and they all use it! :)

The Western HoF has been suggested in that poll Godoggo made some months ago, I think it's going to be one of the following HoF! :D
I still have so many movies to watch to the 60s list and 6th HoF, I hope it doesn't start right after this one or else I will have to skip it! :(

[gbgoodies]

Roll-up cigarettes is very used in Portugal, specially with tobacco prices so high as they are today! Most of my friends smoke and they all use it! :)

The Western HoF has been suggested in that poll Godoggo made some months ago, I think it's going to be one of the following HoF! :D
I still have so many movies to watch to the 60s list and 6th HoF, I hope it doesn't start right after this one or else I will have to skip it! :(


Godoggo posted a schedule for the upcoming Hall of Fames, and I think the HoF schedule is supposed to be the B-Movie Creature Features next, followed by Musicals, and then Documentaries, but there's an issue right now about a Sci-Fi HoF that was posted by Guap, but wasn't scheduled.

The Western HoF isn't even on the schedule that Godoggo posted yet, so it should be a while before it starts.

[Citizen Rules]

One Week Left

If you're through watching get those list in.
http://image.tmdb.org/t/p/original/jTLf35kcFvYC1MigNYhTgHHSchN.jpg

[rauldc14]

I'll be really interested in the results.

[gbgoodies]

I'll be really interested in the results.


Me too. This is a tough one to predict.

[Citizen Rules]

Anyone want to predict the voting results? I of course have to excuse myself from making predictions. But it would be fun to see what you guys think. You don't even have to be a member of the Noir Hof to take a guess.

The best guess at the voting results gets a big shiny gold star!

[Citizen Rules]

Today March 31st, is the last day to get your list in. I will reveal the winner of the Noir Hof on April 1st, latter in the day.

I still need list from 3 people! And I have sent you multiple private messages asking for the list.

[Friendly Mushroom!]

Set Up is tonight. I have my list ready except for that film's inclusion.

[Daniel M]

Just gonna watch my last film now then I'll send too.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

I need a list of these old noirs to make into a watchlist on Letterboxd, so give me everything you can think of guys.:)

[Friendly Mushroom!]

Sent in my list. Either Third Man or Sunset will win.

[seanc]

Sent in my list. Either Third Man or Sunset will win.

Don't count out Double Indemnity

[Citizen Rules]

Cool! I got 2 more list today. I still need 3 more list. I won't be able to present the winner until early evening (Pacific Standard Time) April 1st.

So PLEASE try to get those list in.

[seanc]

Who you missing Citizen?