MOFO Movie Tournament: Bracket 2

[Deadite]

i like to watch movies for everything. art, entertainment, humor... eeeeverything. i don't think anyone hear shuts their mind off and zones out when they watch films. we're all too good for that.

but i don't want to force myself to think about a movie if it doesn't come naturally to me. to be fair, if i really like a movie, i think about it continuously on and off for days, sometimes even weeks after i've seen it. i might not write down my thoughts on it, but my mind is always working.

being entertained isn't always brainless fun, guys. :)

:up: :up:

[Deadite]

>implying someone in this thread said you should force yourself to think about a movie if it doesn't come naturally

Seriously. Cut out the bombastic straw mans, man. I never analyze or even want to analyze a film I don't like, and no amount of analysis has ever gotten me to not enjoy a film that I naturally enjoy. My hatred of Ferris Bueller is not an analysis. It's just simple ressentiment. If I met him in real life, I'd hate him too.

This post is crap, much less than what I've come to expect of you.

Seriously, you don't think about movies you don't like? How do you know why you don't like them? Just on instinct? Why not?

[ash_is_the_gal]

agh! Deadlite quoted my post before i fixed the godawful spelling error. :(

[planet news]

Seriously, you don't think about movies you don't like? How do you know why you don't like them? Just on instinct? Why not?There are very few films that I don't like completely. Therefore, there are very few films that I will completely refuse to think about. For the rare films that I hate vigorously all way through -- e.g. Ferris Bueller -- there might be some residual analysis which usually involves relegating them to a dark corner of my mind. Things are rarely binary in the art world; especially for as inevitably complex and multifaceted a work as a film.

[Deadite]

Sowwy, ash. :(

[linespalsy]

agh! Deadlite quoted my post before i fixed the godawful spelling error. :(

i know. seriously ash, 'everything' does not have five e's. for shame :facepalm:

Edit: plus: "Deadlite?" what is he, a beer? :|

[Deadite]

There are very few films that I don't like completely. Therefore, there are very few films that I will completely refuse to think about. For the rare films that I hate vigorously all way through -- e.g. Ferris Bueller -- there might be some residual analysis which usually involves relegating them to a dark corner of my mind. Things are rarely binary in the art world; especially for as inevitably complex and multifaceted a work as a film.

What do you mean, "like completely"?

Whatever, it's an improvement.

[ash_is_the_gal]

seriously ash, 'everything' does not have five e's. for shame :facepalm:

it does when i say it.

[ash_is_the_gal]

For the rare films that I hate vigorously all way through -- e.g. Ferris Bueller -- there might be some residual analysis which usually involves relegating them to a dark corner of my mind.

are you sure you aren't letting some kind of prejudice cloud your judgement in your 'analysis' of Ferris Bueller? because i am of the opinion that you are completely off your rocker in that post about consumerism and upper-class white kids and all that junk.

[planet news]

>what is he, a beer?

Man, lines is killing tonight. http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx205/planetnews/hitthetable.gif

[ash_is_the_gal]

hahaha! Deadite! i've been reading your name wrong this whole time!

[Deadite]

hahaha! Deadite! i've been reading your name wrong this whole time!

I considered facepalming, but I think I'll just :facepalm: woops there it is

[ash_is_the_gal]

i'm sorry. i am seriously an airhead. i mean, i'm pretty much the only girl member, outside of nebbit, that is active. so i have to live up to some kind of stereotype.

big chest, small brains.

[Deadite]

Now I feel like an A-Hole. And I didn't even mean to be.

[linespalsy]

if it makes you feel any better ash, Deadlite is really good for a cheap, watered down midwestern brew.





PLUS! Free case of Deadlite whenever you purchase tickets to Arthouse IV: Return of the Pasty Chinstrokers!

[Deadite]

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID22019/images/Zombie_Beer_Run20qDetail.png

Don't tell me that's not relevant.

[linespalsy]

It should say "Shamblingly Refleshing Beer"

[Sexy Celebrity]

Pardon me -- the Torture Parade is coming through.

http://i51.tinypic.com/w7c0h5.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/30v1w6s.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2pq1jj9.png
http://i56.tinypic.com/2pshfmd.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/90avtk.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/2m6nbr9.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/zsoahk.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2hh39sp.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2h3t11x.gif
http://i54.tinypic.com/2gv6dnd.jpg
Danke Schön
Danke Schön
http://i55.tinypic.com/5135u0.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/oig5tl.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/y0006.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/142v72c.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2hr0azc.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/20u8mee.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2r7a70i.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/jj794x.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2q06nuh.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/330qzr5.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/2jflx8x.gif
http://i55.tinypic.com/m7er7k.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/wmijie.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/13zsdnb.png

[linespalsy]

I think Ferris Bueller popularized Yello a lot too, so there's that.

[Deadite]

Wait, what the fuuuu

[mark f]

Sexy, that seems like Overkill for somebody who already "won" his match.

[linespalsy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLb9jPuDS9Y

[Sexy Celebrity]

Sexy, that seems like Overkill for somebody who already "won" his match.

I have not won my match - it's not over yet - but if I have, consider that the celebration.

[Deadite]

chicka chickaaaa

[HollyG]

7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

[Sinny McGuffins]

4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men

[stevo3001]

4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men

[mistique]

6. It's a Wonderful Life vs. 11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

[bobdanger]

1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill A Mockingbird
5. Manhattan vs. 12. Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence
2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest vs. 15. The Best Years of Our Lives

Ferris/History was the hardest call for me.

[ash_is_the_gal]

The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men

[TylerDurden99]

5. Manhattan vs. 12. Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
6. It's a Wonderful Life vs. 11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
3. The Warriors vs. 14. Contempt
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

[Brodinski]

Bracket 2
1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill A Mockingbird
8. Yi Yi vs. 9. Dial M for Murder
5. Manhattan vs. 12. Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men
6. It's a Wonderful Life vs. 11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
3. The Warriors vs. 14. Contempt
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

[Saully]

4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

[mark f]

8. Yi Yi vs. 9. Dial M for Murder

I just watched Yi Yii twice (once w/ commentary) and I might watch it again, so if you don't like my vote (it won't matter in the long run), then

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/alice_in_wonderland_1951_eatmedisney.jpg

I'm still thinking about On the Waterfront/To Kill a Mockingbird

[rauldc14]

I've got access to Yi Yi, now I've just got to watch it before the time is up.

[Plainview]

7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

I am just voting on Brackets that are close. Ferris is a good movie but nowhere even close to the quality of History Of Violence. Sorry Bueller.

[rauldc14]

An Update 10 Days prior to the voting deadline:

On the Waterfront 8
To Kill a Mockingbird 9

Yi Yi 7
Dial M for Murder 3

Manhattan 3
Dr. Strangelove 17

Lady from Shanghai 2
Children of Men 16

It's a Wonderful Life 8
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? 11

The Warriors 4
Contempt 7

Ferris Bueller's Day Off 14
A History of Violence 13

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest 13
The Best Years of Our Lives 2

[wintertriangles]

Someone knock off Ferris Bueller please. Also I'm rather glad It's a Wonderful Life is losing

[rauldc14]

It's a Wonderful Life seems to have gotten a fairly tough matchup. I'm guessing it probably would have taken down most of the rest of this bracket.

[MovieMan8877445]

How is It's a Wonderful Life losing to something like Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

[Deadite]

Because Virginia Woolf is awesome.

[planet news]

For Your Consideration:
A History of Violence

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa206/catchspider2002/English%20movies/A%20History%20of%20Violence/AHistoryofViolence2.jpg?t=1243108019


A History of Violence is a very impressive film, fully deserving of advancement to the next bracket. Impeccably photographed and masterfully directed by the versatile David Cronenberg, the film is foremost an exploration of violence and how insidiously it can spread. If at first the film seems a stylistic departure from Cronenberg's more phantasmic works, it is because here he decides to keep the monsters hidden; they are still very much present. The film's title displays brilliant dualism, referring not only to a possible entry on a rap sheet (a history of violence) but also descriptively to itself as a micropolitics of a small town (a history of violence).

Viggo Mortensen delivers a powerful and highly nuanced performance as a man within a man. Or is there no ghost here? Just a shell? This is the film's great ambiguity and one which Cronenberg and Mortensen do not give away with their careful moves. It takes a truly skilled actor to play and actor and make the acting come through not as obvious deception but as acting in is fundamentally irreal realism.

Violence here is pictured as a kind of virus. We have a very beautiful materialism present. Mortensen's character reacts to violence like a machine, one seemingly without control over his actions. Is this to be lamented in man, or are we all already such automatons? His son serves as foil in this sense, initially demonstrating a controlled adeptness at avoiding violence, but eventually settling into a similar reactionary mode as his father after witnessing his explosive abilities. In other words, it is not just that violence causes more violence; it also justifies itself, rendering it the appropriate mode of social relation. The more violence is committed, the more normal and accepted it becomes.

Furthermore is the moral conundrum: at what cost does violence come? Because of its inevitable cascade, is there always a negative cost to violence, even if it used to save a life?

Perhaps even more interesting is the film's exploration of Mortensen's character's identity and the nature of identity as such. What does it mean to know someone? Do we ever really know someone? Or do you know only the person who you immediately remember? How does a hidden past undermine that identity? Can one ever really outrun an identity or will there always be a trace left behind?

A History of Violence, in addition to being a highly engaging thriller, is filled to the brim with sociological and philosophical aporias. Its stance on these age-old questions is unclear, though this is clearly intentional. The film is meant precisely to provoke thought while centering our considerations on a brief but deeply united data set. It is a fiction, yes, but insofar as it remains a plausible fiction, it can become our laboratory for exploring the questions it presents. This, in my opinion, is art at its best: both emotionally engaging on a narrative level and endlessly questioning on a thematic one.

Please, voter, I merely ask for you to consider these observations before casting your ballot. Thank you for your time.

[honeykid]

Yep, what he said. :yup:

[Sexy Celebrity]

For Your Consideration:
Ferris Bueller's Day Off
I would rather let the movie speak for itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgd46QiHz4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMU6UyXdPMs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSXbFu3j5eQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubpRcZNJAnE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0iVd8b5QyA

[Deadite]

Eastern Promises was better.

[MovieMan8877445]

Because Virginia Woolf is awesome.

How is Virginia Woolf awesome? For me, I can't call a film awesome unless there is a lot of explosions throughout. I just a think a different word would've been better to use.

Joking aside, I can't stand it. I had trouble even finishing it because of how bored I was watching it. It's the fact that it's losing to a film like It's a Wonderful Life that gets me. It's a Wonderful Life is just a film that you can watch whenever you're in a bad mood and it'll just put you in a good mood. How can such an uplifting film like It's a Wonderful Life be losing to Virginia Woolf?

Also, I don't see how you can compare a bunch of videos of scenes from the movie to a well thought up write-up. Sorry, Sexy.

[Deadite]

How is Virginia Woolf awesome? For me, I can't call a film awesome unless there is a lot of explosions throughout. I just a think a different word would've been better to use.

Joking aside, I can't stand it. I had trouble even finishing it because of how bored I was watching it. It's the fact that it's losing to a film like It's a Wonderful Life that gets me. It's a Wonderful Life is just a film that you can watch whenever you're in a bad mood and it'll just put you in a good mood. How can such an uplifting film like It's a Wonderful Life be losing to Virginia Woolf?

Also, I don't see how you can compare a bunch of videos of scenes from the movie to a well thought up write-up. Sorry, Sexy.

Wonderful Life is a good film, but it's also corny and a bit slow-moving in setting up the quaint small town life it depicts and sentimentalizes.

As for why Woolf is awesome, I would say it's because it is a fascinating and brutal study of an intense emotional dynamic between two characters.

Maybe Woolf bored you, maybe you thought it wasn't perky enough and didn't bring a big old grin to your face, but there are reasons for watching and enjoying a film besides having your heartstrings plucked. I have a longtime affection for Wonderful Life but ultimately it is schmaltz.

[Deadite]

Also, my word choice of "awesome" is perfectly acceptable. Even if the term is usually associated with less cerebral movies.

[Deadite]

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with letting a movie's scenes speak for themselves. That "well thought up write-up" (which it clearly was, which is why I positive-repped it) is still largely just an opinion, even if an articulate one. Besides, it's not like we're all professional critics getting paid to do this, so chillax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nInE5TITzE8

[wintertriangles]

It's a Wonderful Life has never put me in a good mood because that man is a fool and should have died for being so arrogantly depressed

[rauldc14]

I love It's a Wonderful Life, and I heard Woolf was really good. So I don't really know which way I would go with that matchup. Either way it's a tough call so it seems.

[ash_is_the_gal]

It's a Wonderful Life has never put me in a good mood because that man is a fool and should have died for being so arrogantly depressed

...it's about a guy who continually sacrifices a comfortable lifestyle for his family and friends.

[wintertriangles]

...it's about a guy who continually sacrifices a comfortable lifestyle for his family and friends.I know, I saw it. I can't think of a realistic situation where anyone would be so much of a pushover that even though all the people he loved were happy he would kill himself because he didn't have the balls to say no. Plus the "moral" of the film is the thing that he tries to kill himself over, as if Candide's realization was not a satirization.

[ash_is_the_gal]

I know, I saw it. I can't think of a realistic situation where anyone would be so much of a pushover that even though all the people he loved were happy he would kill himself because he didn't have the balls to say no. Plus the "moral" of the film is the thing that he tries to kill himself over, as if Candide's realization was not a satirization.

the word 'realistic' is strange to use here. it's a movie where the opening shot is heaven with stars and Clarence the Angel trying to get his wings. obviously this whole thing is just a fantasy christmas story.

you could say that anyone who wants to kill themselves is being self-indulgent and arrogant and selfish. most people have families that love them. besides, George Bailey didn't want to kill himself for being a pushover - it's just that things got too overwhelming for him and he didn't want to think about it anymore. he's just human, afterall.

[wintertriangles]

Some humans think more rationally than others. Plus the acting was overblown even for the 40s

[honeykid]

Yep, what he said. :yup:
This wasn't in response to PN's post above it, but Deadite's claim that Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf? is "awesome"

Eastern Promises was better.
No, it wasn't. History of Violence was a much better film.

Also, my word choice of "awesome" is perfectly acceptable. Even if the term is usually associated with less cerebral movies.
Indeed it was. I'd much rather the word "awesome" was misused to describe something great (like WAoVW) than some mindless, random action movie with lots of explosions.

you could say that anyone who wants to kill themselves is being self-indulgent and arrogant and selfish. most people have families that love them.
If they have people who love them, then they are self-indulgent and selfish. It's the most selfish act. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, though.

[Deadite]

Misused? No, I don't think so. I know what I intended with the word.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/awesome

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/awe

Woolf is awesome.

And no, A History of Violence was not better than Eastern Promises. The story wasn't as plausible, or as interesting.

[Yoda]

I liked it better, but only because Eastern Promises kept trying to force us to find Naomi Watts' half of the film as interesting as Viggo Mortensen's. If it hadn't done that, I'd probably like EP much better.

[Deadite]

I like both films, but I think Promises has the edge. I also personally liked the scenes with Watts just as well.

[planet news]

What does A History of Violence's relation to Eastern Promises have to do with its relation to Ferris Bueller's Day Off?

I get that you are proposing an alternative Cronenberg that might have changed your vote, but this remains immaterial, since the brackets cannot change and explicitly pair two films; not either film's place in its respective director's oeuvre. In other words, even if A History of Violence was Cronenberg's absolute worst film ever, that still says nothing about how it compares to Ferris Bueller.

Just a clarification. Thank you for your time.

[ash_is_the_gal]

they were just speculating. get a life, newz.

[Deadite]

What does A History of Violence's relation to Eastern Promises have to do with its relation to Ferris Bueller's Day Off?

I get that you are proposing an alternative Cronenberg that might have changed your vote, but this remains immaterial, since the brackets remain unchanged. Even if A History of Violence was Cronenberg's absolute worst film ever, that still says nothing about how it compares to Ferris Bueller.

Just a clarification. Thank you for your time.

We're not talking about Ferris Bueller. I simply mentioned that Eastern Promises was better, in my opinion, than History. I doubt it would have affected my vote.

Try to keep up.

[planet news]

the word 'realistic' is strange to use here. it's a movie where the opening shot is heaven with stars and Clarence the Angel trying to get his wings. obviously this whole thing is just a fantasy christmas story.Your repeated attempts to "diffuse" the antinomy around this film are growing tiresome. Just because it is a Christmas fantasy does not exclude it from criticism, especially on a thematic level which remains apart from its surface narrative.

besides, George Bailey didn't want to kill himself for being a pushover - it's just that things got too overwhelming for him and he didn't want to think about it anymore.The main disagreement I have with the presentation of suicide in this film is that it clouds the issue of suicide so much as to render it meaningless. Sentimentality on its own is not inherently bad; it merely means emotionally affecting. Still, one must ask why? In this sense, I feel that the suicide was a purely sentimental tactic and didn't actually address suicide. Actually addressing the real phenomenon of suicide would have rendered the suicide a necessary aspect of the film and therefore not superfluous. Superfluousness of device is often a sign of a film's manipulativeness, and this is the fine line that divides sentimentality as simple emotional effectiveness and emotional manipulation.

he's just human, afterall.So is Pol Pot. Does the fact that someone is human excuse him from judgement?

[ash_is_the_gal]

Your repeated attempts to "diffuse" the antinomy around this film are growing tiresome.

really? i'm pretty sure this was my first time doing so in this thread.

also, of course it can be criticized. my point in calling it a Christmas fantasy wasn't an excuse, but i thought it valid seeing as what's-his-face was trying to get on its case for not being realistic enough.

anyway. bored now.

[ash_is_the_gal]

i was almost positive i actually voted for Who's Afraid of Viriginia Woolf, didn't i? it's higher on my Top 100, anyway, so this isn't about me just trying to stick up for the film i want to win.

[Deadite]

Basically, both of Cronenberg's films are nicely crafted thrillers, yet lacked a strong emotional center to allow the viewer to truly care for any of the characters, so that prevents the viewer from really investing in the flow of the story. Eastern Promises was better in that aspect, in my opinion. Yet, all said and done, they both came off as too detached and ambiguous.

Of course, I can understand there is an argument to be made in favor of that very quality.

[Film Trash Review]

Bracket 2
1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill A Mockingbird
8. Yi Yi vs. 9. Dial M for Murder
4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence
2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest vs. 15. The Best Years of Our Lives

I know I am going to get crap for picking Children of Men over Lady from Shanghai haha. :)

[planet news]

really? i'm pretty sure this was my first time doing so in this thread.You did it earlier when you said that I missed "the point" of the film with the implication being that "the point" of the film was just a light, Christmas fantasy, which it is. Still, films can be taken on from many different fronts, and your characterization of its "point" was only one.

also, of course it can be criticized. my point in calling it a Christmas fantasy wasn't an excuse, but i thought it valid seeing as what's-his-face was trying to get on its case for not being realistic enough.It wasn't realistic enough in terms of its presentation of suicide. This was his focus, and it is also mine. When a filmmaker adds something for no other purpose than to draw an emotional reaction -- this time, at the death of an otherwise good man -- this is sentimentality at its worst.

i was almost positive i actually voted for Who's Afraid of Viriginia Woolf, didn't i? it's higher on my Top 100, anyway, so this isn't about me just trying to stick up for the film i want to win.Well, that's good.

[planet news]

I know I am going to get crap for picking Children of Men over Lady from Shanghai haha.Actually, it's been winning by a landslide. :) For as much as I like TLfS, CoM is a tremendous film.

[ash_is_the_gal]

Still, films can be taken on from many different fronts, and your characterization of its "point" was only one.

but it's the main point of the film, really. to be happy and nice and Christmasy. not to theorize about suicide. if it had done that and still tried to sell as a Christmas title, it would have failed big-time.

It wasn't realistic enough in terms of its presentation of suicide.

good. that would have been awful.

[planet news]

My idea is it shouldn't have had suicide in it at all. It should have used another device. In doing so it adds to the emotional drama of the film but distorts suicide in the process. When something is added for the sake of tugging at the heart strings, this is manipulation.

[Deadite]

Wonderful Life is manipulative. But so what?

Of course it wasn't realistic, it's a moral fable. The point of using suicide in the film wasn't to explore the issue of suicide but to serve the moral, which is that we should appreciate our lives.

[ash_is_the_gal]

My idea is it shouldn't have had suicide in it at all. It should have used another device. In doing so it adds to the emotional drama of the film but distorts suicide in the process. When something is added for the sake of tugging at the heart strings, this is manipulation.

what would you suggest? i don't understand. so you're saying any film that tugs at your heartstrings was added by the filmmaker unintentionally? please.

do you know how annoying it is to be called tiresome for "repeatedly" sticking up for a film (which included, like, 2 sentences) when you write novels about the politics of everything? who's tiresome?

[MovieMan8877445]

I know I am going to get crap for picking Children of Men over Lady from Shanghai haha. :)

Have you seen The Lady from Shanghai? It's not marked off your movie lists.

[Deadite]

Actually, it's been winning by a landslide. :) For as much as I like TLfS, CoM is a tremendous film.

I agree. :)

[planet news]

so you're saying any film that tugs at your heartstrings was added by the filmmaker unintentionally?lrn2read. Intentionality as nothing to do with it. Necessity has everything to do with it.

who's tiresome?I am, I guess.

[Deadite]

do you know how annoying it is to be called tiresome for "repeatedly" sticking up for a film (which included, like, 2 sentences) when you write novels about the politics of everything? who's tiresome?

LOL :cool:

[ash_is_the_gal]

lrn2read. Intentionality as nothing to do with it. Necessity has everything to do with it.

okay, then try to answer my question. if not suicide, what?

[planet news]

Wonderful Life is manipulative. But so what?So... it's manipulative. It's not a devastating negative, but it's not a terrible film either. Remember, we are comparing it to another film here. I am not arguing that it is the worst film ever or anything. That would be more like Ferris Bueller.

Of course it wasn't realistic, it's a moral fable. The point of using suicide in the film wasn't to explore the issue of suicide but to serve the moral, which is that we should appreciate our lives.I don't know if that was the point, but I understand your point. Still, A Christmas Carol sold a similar message but without suicide. I agree that the story cannot survive without a death, but it's choice of method -- suicide -- was inappropriately integrated; that is, it wasn't really integrated at all. It didn't make sense. People simply don't kill themselves for those reasons. People don't loose the will to live so easily.

okay, then try to answer my question. if not suicide, what?Any other method of death.

[Deadite]

Any other method wouldn't have served the moral as well.

And PN, you do know I chose Woolf over Wonderful Life, right?

Anyway, as a person who has dealt with the aftermath of the suicide of a loved one, I can say that from my own POV I think Wonderful Life has good intentions and is deeply touching if you allow it to be.

[ash_is_the_gal]

if it had been any other method of death, there would be no Clarence, no epiphany. that wouldn't work.

[planet news]

Clarence was clearly catered towards the suicide, yes, but why not just an intervention of, say, a car accident, based purely on how good of a guy George was?

Also, his epiphany has nothing to do with suicide. It has to do with him realizing that he lived an incredibly creative life. But this is where the contradiction comes in, because then his death -- yet another creative act -- would merely be the logical conclusion of this philosophy of self sacrifice, which is indeed a great and noble one.

What if instead of for money, George was fighting in the war and had to throw himself on a grenade to save his comrades? Do you think Clarence would have forced an epiphany then? What would have been the message there? That George was worth more as a human than everyone else? No. Sacrificing yourself for others is an incredible kind of glory in itself.

[Deadite]

Besides, who says a film can't use a subject (say, suicide) without being primarily about that subject? We don't need Wonderful Life to be a realistic examination of the suicide issue in order for it to work. It works fine for what it is, which is a sappy message movie that tells us the little things are what's important.

[ash_is_the_gal]

Clarence was clearly catered towards the suicide, yes, but why not just an intervention of, say, a car accident, based purely on how good of a guy George was?

Also, his epiphany has nothing to do with suicide. It has to do with him realizing that he lived an incredibly creative life. But this is where the contradiction comes in, because then his death -- yet another creative act -- would merely be the logical conclusion of this philosophy of self sacrifice, which is indeed a great and noble one.

yeah, but, how would that work? Clarence's whole purpose was to show George what a wonderful and "creative" life he had, as you said. George was lost. that's why he felt suicidal. if they had went the car crash way, showing George what a good guy he had been wouldn't have mattered. in the end, it was George who made the decision to live, not Clarence. Clarence wasn't a miracle worker, he just showed George the way.

What if instead of for money, George was fighting in the war and had to throw himself on a grenade to save his comrades? Do you think Clarence would have forced an epiphany then? What would have been the message there? That George was worth more as a human than everyone else? No. Sacrificing yourself for others is an incredible kind of glory in itself.

using a war analogy isn't comparable at all. it just doesn't make sense. it changes the film too much.

[rauldc14]

I 100% agree Deadite. Not every movie needs a justification morally, realistically, or any other reasoning. Sometimes, it can just be a fun movie and that's justification in itself.

[Deadite]

Clarence was clearly catered towards the suicide, yes, but why not just an intervention of, say, a car accident, based purely on how good of a guy George was?

Also, his epiphany has nothing to do with suicide. It has to do with him realizing that he lived an incredibly creative life. But this is where the contradiction comes in, because then his death -- yet another creative act -- would merely be the logical conclusion of this philosophy of self sacrifice, which is indeed a great and noble one.

What if instead of for money, George was fighting in the war and had to throw himself on a grenade to save his comrades? Do you think Clarence would have forced an epiphany then? What would have been the message there? That George was worth more as a human than everyone else? No. Sacrificing yourself for others is an incredible kind of glory in itself.

You're way out there, bub. :sick:

George lost faith, Clarence showed him he mattered. The End.

[mark f]

I certainly think it's a pretty dark story and film, but then again, so is A Christmas Carol. The main difference in that one is that Scrooge is basically helping to make many unfortunate souls die rather than trying to kill himself. The two stories are sorta the inverse of each other with the same message (and I'm not going to say what the message is because every film may apparently have an infinite number).

[Swan]

1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill A Mockingbird
5. Manhattan vs. 12. Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

[planet news]

I 100% agree Deadite. Not every movie needs a justification morally, realistically, or any other reasoning. Sometimes, it can just be a fun movie and that's justification in itself.I love how every thread descends into this same arbitrary statement. There might as well be a bot programmed to periodically post it in everything thread. Actually, I have a better idea. It should just be a word filter that replaces reasoning.

The fact is someone asked a while back why It's a Wonderful Life is not as good as Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Wintertriangles and myself proposed reasons. That's as far as this discussion goes. It's about these particular films and how they compare, their individual merits and flaws. It's not about anything else but that.

Your statement is confused and nonsensical because neither of us are saying that "every movie needs a justification". We're merely giving a reason why It's a Wonderful Life is flawed.

Learn to focus on the issue at hand. You're running this thing apparently. Why are we voting if every movie is equal in everyone's eyes? The entire point is that some of us like one film better than another. Actually, all of us. Yet, whenever anyone attempts to give a reason as to why, the inevitable regurgitation is always WELL FILMS CAN JUST BE LIKE THAT WHY YOU GOTTA HATE?

:shrug:

[Deadite]

I love how some people pout because they can't persuade other people to stop liking a film.

[rauldc14]

Of course, it is of your opinion that It's a Wonderful Life is flawed, which I am fine with that thinking. Some may or may not disagree with that, but it shouldn't change your opinion and they shouldn't be disgruntled about your opinion either.

I like that you've given detailed statements as to why you prefer one movie over the other, and that in fact justifies your vote. I have to give you props for that.

A tournament like this is subjective and I think we've gotten a lot out of this so far.

[planet news]

People keep asking for reasons. I keep providing them. Let's say I give reason A. What I'm reacting against is not a rejection of reason A. It could very well be an invalid reason. What I'm reacting against is this automatic rejection of the very notion of a reason X based on the idea that every film doesn't have to be such and such.

If you want to start a discussion on what every film should have to be, make a thread. I was simply answering a question for someone who thinks that there is no reason why It's a Wonderful Life could be losing.

What's even more silly is how everyone that's so incensed about me providing reasons actually voted for Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Tell me. What were your reasons for choosing the opposite film? Or do you have none?

All any of you seem to be able to do is tell me that my reasons are invalid for being reasons as such.

[Deadite]

I don't think there's a film on here that isn't flawed. It depends on how you look at it. If you want ultra-realism without sentimentalism, It's a Wonderful Life is "flawed".

You can't use logic to convince people that a movie they like is inferior to a movie you like. All you can do is point out why you don't like it, and accept that they may like it for the very same reason you dislike it.

[Deadite]

People keep asking for reasons. I keep providing them. Let's say I give reason A. What I'm reacting against is not a rejection of reason A. It could very well be an invalid reason. What I'm reacting against is this automatic rejection of the very notion of a reason X based on the idea that every film doesn't have to be such and such.

If you want to start a discussion on what every film should have to be, make a thread. I was simply answering a question for someone who thinks that there is no reason why It's a Wonderful Life could be losing.

What's even more silly is how everyone that's so incensed about me providing reasons actually voted for Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Tell me. What were your reasons for choosing the opposite film? Or do you have none?

All any of you seem to be able to do is tell me that my reasons are invalid for being reasons as such.

I've made it pretty clear why I chose Virginia Woolf over Wonderful Life. Haven't you been paying attention?

[planet news]

You can't use logic to convince people that a movie they like is inferior to a movie you like.I merely responded to a question and have been responding to questions ever since. It is your own defensiveness that has characterized my position as aggressive attempting to "convince" people.

All you can do is point out why you don't like it, and accept that they may like it for the very same reason you dislike it.What has demonstrated my failure to accept this? And what would not accepting someone's opinion look like? I daresay it would look like this:

I 100% agree Deadite. Not every movie needs a justification morally, realistically, or any other reasoning. Sometimes, it can just be a fun movie and that's justification in itself.It is an attempt to stifle all reasoning and preference made all that much more ironic by the very person running these brackets. It is not a refutation of my claims. It is an invalidation of my very attempt to make a claim of preference.

[planet news]

I've made it pretty clear why I chose Virginia Woolf over Wonderful Life. Haven't you been paying attention?I believe it is exactly the same reason as mine: sentimentality. Nevertheless, you failed to expand on this account any further than merely writing the word "sentimentality". Instead, you have actually attempted to invalidate my explanation of why the film is sentimental and how that detracts from its quality.

[rauldc14]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen Woolf so I can't give you reasoning behind my vote...since I didn't have one.

[planet news]

I don't need a reason. :) I never asked for a reason either. However, the question for a reason was put forth (note: neither by myself nor Mr. Triangles), and we both proposed an answer, which was vehemently attacked. That is as involved as my commitment to the support or detriment of It's a Wonderful Life and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf goes.

Now, there was nothing wrong with attacking my claims. That's the essence of discussion. Nevertheless, I can't accept it when someone plays the card of "proclaiming the multitude", which invalidates the very notion of discussion or reasoned preference at all. This is the end of thought. Mark my words.

[ash_is_the_gal]

What's even more silly is how everyone that's so incensed about me providing reasons actually voted for Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Tell me. What were your reasons for choosing the opposite film? Or do you have none?

well, actually, depending on the day of the week, i could vote for either of these films. i love them both, so my vote was cast not against one film, but for another. at least in this instance it was.

[ash_is_the_gal]

All any of you seem to be able to do is tell me that my reasons are invalid for being reasons as such.

wrong. i was discussing it back at you. you ignored the last thing i said. you aren't the only one who thinks through and writes thoughtful posts on this subject. man, are you arrogant.

[Deadite]

I believe they are the same reasons as mine: sentimentality. Nevertheless, you failed to expand on this account any further than merely writing the word "sentimentality". Instead, you have actually attempted to invalidate my explanation of why the film is sentimental and how that detracts from its quality.

Oh, I've done more than that. You seriously need to pay more attention.

Wonderful Life is a good film, in my opinion. So is Woolf. I think Woolf is slightly more emotionally powerful because it portrays a dysfunctional marriage without attempting to resolve anything. It's more honest.

Wonderful Life has an agenda, and that agenda is to make the viewer care, cry, and ultimately feel good. Being manipulated isn't always a bad thing in movies.

Really, though. It wasn't an objective choice. It is dependent simply on my personal preference for Woolf's masterful display of bitterness and mind games.

Some people might not like that. They might prefer a movie that makes them feel good and has a clear moral message.

Who am I to say that's wrong?

So, tell us, what do you like about Woolf?

[ash_is_the_gal]

by the way, planet news, no one is attacking you. we're discussing a film. if you feel so attacked, i think it's all in your head. i was having fun. :)

if you aren't, though, maybe discussion forums aren't your thing.

[planet news]

if you aren't, though, maybe discussion forums aren't your thing.I'm sorry if you're confused, but war analogies (attack, defense, lines, fronts) are the most common way of describing the dialectic.

[ash_is_the_gal]

sorry i didn't like your analogy. better luck next time.

[Deadite]

I don't need a reason. :) I never asked for a reason either. However, the question for a reason was put forth (note: neither by myself nor Mr. Triangles), and we both proposed an answer, which was vehemently attacked. That is as involved as my commitment to the support or detriment of It's a Wonderful Life and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf goes.

Now, there was nothing wrong with attacking my claims. That's the essence of discussion. Nevertheless, I can't accept it when someone plays the card of "proclaiming the multitude", which invalidates the very notion of discussion or reasoned preference at all. This is the end of thought. Mark my words.

I don't have a problem with your tastes or your reasons for disliking any film. I have a problem with your attitude. You come across as smug at times.

[ash_is_the_gal]

and pissed off. don't forget pissed off.

[Deadite]

I merely responded to a question and have been responding to questions ever since. It is your own defensiveness that has characterized my position as aggressive attempting to "convince" people.

What has demonstrated my failure to accept this? And what would not accepting someone's opinion look like? I daresay it would look like this:

It is an attempt to stifle all reasoning and preference made all that much more ironic by the very person running these brackets. It is not a refutation of my claims. It is an invalidation of my very attempt to make a claim of preference.

I'm simply saying what I feel I should say, and offering an alternative viewpoint. I don't feel a particular need to defend these films or my own judgments, but I do enjoy expressing my opinions. I think you take it too far sometimes, though.

I'm sure you have good enough personal reasons for liking one film over another. I think you're a pretty intelligent guy, and I'm sure you bring that intelligence when you watch films.

I really am tiring of this with you, though. I wish it could be resolved but I'm not sure how to do so. I suspect you have hurt feelings over more than just this movie bracket subject and it comes out in other discussions.

I will admit that I am wary of you because I don't think you "play fair" if you get my meaning.

[ash_is_the_gal]

i got hurt feelings, i got hurt feelings. i feel like such a prized *******; no one even cares about my casserole.

http://flight-of-the-conchords.edogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/flight_of_the_conchords.jpg

[planet news]

sorry i didn't like your analogy. better luck next time.It is simply a common way of referring to argument. What does "better luck next time" mean? I am not vying for your approval, am I? I am already using a widely approved figure of speech.

[planet news]

I'm simply saying what I feel I should say, and offering an alternative viewpoint. I don't feel a particular need to defend these films or my own judgments, but I do enjoy expressing my opinions. I think you take it too far sometimes, though.I am doing the same. In what ways do I "take it too far"?

I really am tiring of this with you, though. I wish it could be resolved but I'm not sure how to do so.It doesn't call for "resolution". Maybe this is your problem. You think that there needs to be an "end" or a "winner". You perceive all attempt to introduce a solid position as an attempt to "beat" someone else. You fear what the conclusion might mean and therefore refuse to discuss. This fear is prevalent in all matters of art. The debate may be forever, but it is either a debate or a mere multitude of opinions.

I suspect you have hurt feelings over more than just this movie bracket subject and it comes out in other discussions.If you mean the incessant name calling -- "arrogant", "pissed off", "big-mouthed arrogant fool", "*******", "jerk", "idiot" -- I didn't like that very much, no. Perhaps it is you who have carried over emotions from other discussions. Both of you seem to spend a heck of a lot of time telling me how I feel and what my attitude is. A lot more time, I notice, than actually confront what I'm saying.

I will admit that I am wary of you because I don't think you "play fair" if you get my meaning.I actually don't get your meaning. Can you explain? I think the difference is that I choose to "play" at all. Everything you say comes down to one thing: "there are many different points of view". This is a truism, a mere statement of the situation. In a "game", your statement is tantamount to the claim that "there are two sides" or "there are opponents". This doesn't at all address the fact of the confrontation, the introduction of a difference that constitutes criticism.

[ash_is_the_gal]

it doesn't mean anything, planet news. it doesn't mean anything at all.

[ash_is_the_gal]

sorry for any namecalling on my part. however, as you know, you are not exactly the only wronged party in that department.

[planet news]

When have I ever called either of you names other than your own?

[ash_is_the_gal]

you've called me a hussy a few times.

[planet news]

I have never used that word before in my life. :shrug: Are you just going to lie about it then to make yourself feel better? That's okay.

[ash_is_the_gal]

no, i was just kidding with you. chill.

[planet news]

I mean, this is an internet forum. Everything I say is recorded on here. Even when I rescind things, it is always of my own over-bloated thoughts as a kind of self-censure. But if you really feel I've wronged you, tell me where. No, show me where. I have no memory of it, but memory is more prone to dilapidation than code.

[ash_is_the_gal]

anyway, i know you have called me names before. probably not in this thread, though. and i know for a fact you've called others names in other threads recently. i don't want to quote them, though.

[rauldc14]

To get things back on track:

Just a reminder that voting will end on July 12 for bracket 2

[planet news]

anyway, i know you have called me names before. probably not in this thread, though. and i know for a fact you've called others names in other threads recently. i don't want to quote them, though.Please, quote them. If you want to make claims about me, make them, but also make sure you can back them up.

[ash_is_the_gal]

what, you want me to go through all your posts until i find them? c'mon, now.

anyway, is there any great difference between directly calling someone a name (like arrogant) and brashly making insulting judgments about people, which you do all the time? :)

[ash_is_the_gal]

To get things back on track:

Just a reminder that voting will end on July 12 for bracket 2

uh.... sorry. i'm way hijacking this thread. i'm gonna stop. i feel bad.

[planet news]

what, you want me to go through all your posts until i find them? c'mon, now.Well you said they were very recent. I haven't made that many posts recently. Surely you can find at least one.

anyway, is there any great difference between directly calling someone a name (like arrogant) and brashly making insulting judgments about people, which you do all the time? :)
Well, let's find some of those "insulting judgements" and talk about them. Someone taking a statement about them as insulting is different from deliberately insulting someone, yes.

[Deadite]

I am doing the same. In what ways do I "take it too far"?

You get pissy when people don't quickly agree with every idea or criticism you introduce, for one.

It doesn't call for "resolution". Maybe this is your problem. You think that there needs to be an "end" or a "winner". You perceive all attempt to introduce a solid position as an attempt to "beat" someone else. You fear what the conclusion might mean and therefore refuse to discuss. This fear is prevalent in all matters of art. The debate may be forever, but it is either a debate or a mere multitude of opinions.

If that were true, then why did I agree with you about Wonderful Life being manipulative? Why have I voted for Woolf and called Wonderful Life schmaltz?

What exactly would I be winning, PN?

If you mean the incessant name calling -- "arrogant", "pissed off", "big-mouthed arrogant fool", "*******", "jerk", "idiot" -- I didn't like that very much, no. Perhaps it is you who have carried over emotions from other discussions. Both of you seem to spend a heck of a lot of time telling me how I feel and what my attitude is. A lot more time, I notice, than actually confront what I'm saying.

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. You are taking my words from another thread to make yourself look like a victim, when in fact I had every reason to be angry with you in that thread.

Do you deny what you did?

I actually don't get your meaning. Can you explain? I think the difference is that I choose to "play" at all. Everything you say comes down to one thing: "there are many different points of view". This is a truism, a mere statement of the situation. In a "game", your statement is tantamount to the claim that "there are two sides" or "there are opponents". This doesn't at all address the fact of the confrontation, the introduction of a difference that constitutes criticism.

I mean "play fair" as in not quoting me out of context.

I mean "play fair" as in not using my anger at you for twisting my words in another thread to now make me look bad in this thread.

I mean "play fair" as in not constantly insinuating that other people aren't as smart as you or are all avoiding some great truth only you can see, simply because they question your points.

[planet news]

You get pissy when people don't quickly agree with every idea or criticism you introduce, for one.I don't think that's true. Show me where I got "pissy" for a disagreement with one of my proposals? I merely addressed what was presented to me.

Also, what is "pissy"? Please tell me, because then I can stop being it. According to y'all, I seem to be it all the time! :cool:

If that were true, then why did I agree with you about Wonderful Life being manipulative? Why have I voted for Woolf and called Wonderful Life schmaltz?

What exactly would I be winning, PN?I haven't a clue. I'm asking you that. It's a total mystery to me why you feel the need to seek a definite resolution.

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. You are taking my words from another thread to make yourself look like a victim, when in fact I had every reason to be angry with you in that thread.

Do you deny what you did?I don't even know what it was that I "did". :shrug: Again, why don't you remind me.

I mean "play fair" as in not quoting me out of context.Please, let's discuss this. When did I quote you out of context?

I mean "play fair" as in not using my anger at you for twisting my words in another thread to now make me look bad in this thread.Well, you were the one who suggested we look at our experiences from other threads. Here's a quote (hopefully in context):

"I suspect you have hurt feelings over more than just this movie bracket subject and it comes out in other discussions."

I mean "play fair" as in not constantly insinuating that other people aren't as smart as you or are all avoiding some great truth only you can see, simply because they question your points.When did I insinuate this? I encourage questioning on my points. You guys, however, haven't been questioning them at all. You've been spending all your time attacking me as a person.

Perhaps it is your lack inability to separate the propositions from the personality? I'm just conjecturing here.

[Deadite]

Pn, do me a favor. Instead of expecting people to go back through and quote everything to your satisfaction, just go back and reread, say, the last five or six pages in this thread.

I am not going to play this childish game where you proclaim ignorance of what you've done. You know very well you misquoted me in the "are movies art or entertainment?" thread.

[planet news]

I am not going to play this childish game where you proclaim ignorance of what you've done. You know very well you misquoted me in the "are movies art or entertainment?" thread.Okay. Let's take a look at what you wrote:

I still don't see anyone fairly responding to my points, only reasserting their garbage/high art dichotomy ad nauseam.

It's snobbish and smacks of elitism, as far as I'm concerned. It's far too rigid thinking, and promotes the stagnation rather than the development of art in general. I don't claim that everything I like is a masterpiece, but I am willing to look without some arbitrary black & white value system based on majority opinion clouding my judgment.The key phrase is "only reasserting their garbage/high art dichotomy ad nauseam". This refers to people in the thread. People in the thread I happen to agree with. People who you called, well, "snobbish . . . smack of elitism". This is yet another instance, let me point out, of [I]blatantly calling people names. I only point this out because it is revealing itself to me as a trend. Correct me if I'm wrong to draw this conclusion.

[Deadite]

Okay. Let's take a look at what you wrote:

The key phrase is "only reasserting their garbage/high art dichotomy ad nauseam". This refers to people in the thread. People in the thread I happen to agree with. People who you called, well, "snobbish . . . smack of elitism". This is yet another instance, let me point out, of [I]blatantly calling people names. I only point this out because it is revealing itself to me as a trend. Correct me if I'm wrong to draw this conclusion.

Yes, but you also conveniently fail to post your own relevant quote here as well. The one where you used my words to make it appear I was insulting people based on what movies they favor. In that instance, foreign films.

I will simply repeat what I said in that thread: It has nothing to do with taste in movies and everything to do with attitude; People, in other words, who try to shove their opinions down other people's throats while justifying it as "objective" and "progressing the debate".

Well, I'm not buying it, and it is exactly what I originally called it as.

[Deadite]

So now, in the interest of fairness, please post the quote where you took my words out of context so that you could use them against SC and myself as well.

[mark f]

Oh, I've done more than that. You seriously need to pay more attention.

Wonderful Life is a good film, in my opinion. So is Woolf. I think Woolf is slightly more emotionally powerful because it portrays a dysfunctional marriage without attempting to resolve anything. It's more honest.

So, tell us, what do you like about Woolf?

OK. I admit that I've grown weary of the give-and-take bogus constant of having a "reason", but I'll give you one right now. I just hope it ain't too bogus.

I have to disagree with my New Best Bud, Deadite, here. Virginia Woolf comes to a shattering resolution. It's a true, human exorcism on screen and on the faces of all those who witness it. It turns a rollercoaster ride of "awesome" (sorry!) acting, writing, direction, photography, editing, music, art direction, et.al. into a truly life-changing film, and I mean one that can change people without resorting to fantasy as an explanation for getting to the end and dealing with life. The point of Woolf is obviously that life is not a fantasy.

I find Wonderful Life incredibly involving and moving. I used to think it was maybe Capra's worst, but after I started a family of my own and went through all kinds of problems about "How in the Hell are we going to pay for that?" and "Would it be easier for my family to get along with the $250,000 they'd get if I commited suicide?" (Yes, this insurance would not pay out for suicide during the first year only). Obviously, My Babe and My Baby don't want me to croak, but I still think about it every day, but don't worry, I probably would have done it long ago if it was meant to be. See, I just contradicted myself, but that's what humans do. This site is a "Wonderful" example of that.

To steal from America's Phrase at this time of year: Please be safe and sane and not get all @&%$ed up this weekend. We all really like (love? - get away you sentimental bastard) each other. Or should I sign off with a


-HA!

[Deadite]

I think I understand what you're saying, mark, but you seemed to see the movie as a unique and crucial event in their lives, whereas I saw it as just another day in their lives.

I don't believe that anything was truly resolved at the end, not really, or that they would have changed in any meaningful way. I think you could probably come back in a year and find them still at each other's throats, more or less.

Just my opinion, you know. :)

[Deadite]

Pn, I'm not going to bother keeping on repeating myself any longer. I'm tired of you, and your BS. I absolutely did not ever ever EVER intend my words to broadly generalize people who enjoy foreign films negatively. Ever. If I had done that, I would have to include myself, since I enjoy them too.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post.

[planet news]

Okay.

[Deadite]

Okay.

Let's change the subject. Children of Men, you liked it too? I think it's one of the best sci-fi films I've ever seen.

[planet news]

God Tier: Blade Runner
Sh*t Tier: Children of Men

Discuss.

[planet news]

Alright, I'm joking. I don't even like Blade Runner that much.

[Deadite]

God Tier: Blade Runner
Sh*t Tier: Children of Men

Discuss.

Well, films can just be like that. Why you gotta hate? :p

[planet news]

Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf should win because it reminds me so much of a recent experience I've had: posting in this thread.

I wonder which character I'd be.

[mark f]

I think I understand what you're saying, mark, but you seemed to see the movie as a unique and crucial event in their lives, whereas I saw it as just another day in their lives.

I don't believe that anything was truly resolved at the end, not really, or that they would have changed in any meaningful way. I think you could probably come back in a year and find them still at each other's throats, more or less.

Just my opinion, you know. :)


One thing's for damn sure. They couldn't argue about their Kid anymore. Rewatch the film. You already like it. The ending is what makes it a "Great Film/Play", other than just the Best Damn Thing which is super but has no closure. It took me years after I already loved it to truly "get" the ending. :cool:

[Deadite]

One thing's for damn sure. They couldn't argue about their Kid anymore. Rewatch the film. You already like it. The ending is what makes it a "Great Film/Play", other than just the Best Damn Thing which is super but has no closure. It took me years after I already loved it to truly "get" the ending. :cool:

They could, though... It was their invention in the first place, so they could start it up again, sooner or later. And even if not that specifically, they could always have something else like it.

Maybe I'm wrong. It's been awhile since I saw it, so I may not have every nuance readily in mind.

[planet news]

^ It has as much closure as a carefully constructed and maintained house of cards has closure when a wind blows on it. They could always start rebuilding, I suppose.

I find Wonderful Life incredibly involving and moving. I used to think it was maybe Capra's worst, but after I started a family of my own and went through all kinds of problems about "How in the Hell are we going to pay for that?" and "Would it be easier for my family to get along with the $250,000 they'd get if I commited suicide?" (Yes, this insurance would not pay out for suicide during the first year only). Obviously, My Babe and My Baby don't want me to croak, but I still think about it every day, but don't worry, I probably would have done it long ago if it was meant to be. See, I just contradicted myself, but that's what humans do. This site is a "Wonderful" example of that.This is what I don't get. Is sacrificing yourself for others always bad? I mean, it hurts others in some ways but it can also help. Can't it also be an astounding deed on all levels. Isn't this why soldiers get so much respect? Because of their sacrifice? Even if a soldier "dies for an unjust war" or something, that doesn't deny the courage and glory of their act, does it?

So what's the lesson in stopping someone from committing suicide? I think its very confused. I mean, what if all the other people in the town didn't come through in the end. He's be screwed and so would everyone else. Why not permit him a glorious death otherwise? A critique of self-sacrifice would be something like self-sacrifice for arbitrary means. I'm thinking Hara-Kiri here.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm saying you should kill yourself, Mark. I've always thought people like you should get your brains preserved, let alone cut themselves off short for a few bucks.

[Deadite]

Alright, I'm joking. I don't even like Blade Runner that much.

How can you not love Blade Runner?? That's evil. :(

[planet news]

It's low art.

[Deadite]

^ It has as much closure as a carefully constructed and maintained house of cards has closure when a wind blows on it. They could always start rebuilding, I suppose.

This is what I don't get. Is sacrificing yourself for others always bad? I mean, it hurts others in some ways but it can also help. Can't it also be an astounding deed on all levels. Isn't this why soldiers get so much respect? Because of their sacrifice? Even if a soldier "dies for an unjust war" or something, that doesn't deny the courage and glory of their act, does it?

So what's the lesson in stopping someone from committing suicide? I think its very confused. I mean, what if all the other people in the town didn't come through in the end. He's be screwed and so would everyone else. Why not permit him a glorious death otherwise? A critique of self-sacrifice would be something like self-sacrifice for arbitrary means. I'm thinking Hara-Kiri here.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm saying you should kill yourself, Mark. I've always thought people like you should get your brains preserved, let alone cut themselves off short for a few bucks.

You've seen Grand Illusion, right?

[Deadite]

It's low art.

Hey, that's good enough for me. :D

[planet news]

You've seen Grand Illusion, right?I still believe (maybe foolishly) in self sacrifice as a creative act, even in war time, if that's what you mean.

[honeykid]

I don't think foolishly even begins to cover it, PN.

[ash_is_the_gal]

how would George Bailey offing himself help others, though? if the people of Bedford Falls hadn't come through, he would have went to jail and his family would have been poor, i guess, but i can't see how his family would be better off with him dead, other than life insurance. and i'm sure Mary would much rather be poor with George than rolling in his $40,000 life insurance policy.

i'm a little disturbed at how well i remember the insignificant details of this story. :indifferent:

[Deadite]

I still believe (maybe foolishly) in self sacrifice as a creative act, even in war time, if that's what you mean.

I see we understand each other. I don't claim to have an easy answer, though. I just thought the film was relevant.

Suddenly this conversation has taken a depressing turn for me. It's because I am reminded of something personal, from the past. I will bow out for now.

Hopefully you and I will be able to have many more stimulating discussions in the future.

And if you wanted to add me back onto your friends list again sometime, I wouldn't say no.

[planet news]

I wasn't aware we were ever friends!

I don't think foolishly even begins to cover it, PN.Yeah, look, man, I know what you're going to say. I just know what you're going to say, and I'm not going to argue because I agree, but even though I agree, I still choose to believe in heroes. It's like this: I know very well, but... I, too, have no easy answer. :shrug:

[Deadite]

I wasn't aware we were ever friends!

Huh, sorry, maybe I was thinking wintertriangle? It seems somebody's missing from my friends list and he did neg-rep me a bunch of times in a row in this thread earlier. :confused:

Well, anyway, thanks for that. Later.

[honeykid]

Yeah, look, man, I know what you're going to say. I just know what you're going to say, and I'm not going to argue because I agree, but even though I agree, I still choose to believe in heroes. It's like this: I know very well, but... I, too, have no easy answer. :shrug:

Hey, if they were easy we'd all know the answer.

Also, can you choose to believe in something? Surely you either do or you don't. You may like to, but that's not really belief.

[Harry Lime]

Yoda must be loving the post counts thanks to this tournament.

[MovieMan8877445]

I just realized this was over 20 pages. Damn, and most of it was from this It's a Wonderful Life/Virginia Woolf argument.

[HollyG]

8. Yi Yi vs. 9. Dial M for Murder
5. Manhattan vs.12.Dr.Strangelove Or :How I Learned To Stop Worrying And love The Bomb
4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13.Children of Men

[ash_is_the_gal]

Holly, i noticed you never watched Paper Moon for bracket 1... *cries*

[HollyG]

I know I tried to watch it in time but I was too late,and I did watch it and I absolutely loved it,if I wasn't to late I would of voted it for it and I haven't seen Star Wars since I was a kid so It didn't feel like a fair fight and their was'nt enough time for both.:(

[HollyG]

6.It's a Wonderful Life vs. 11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

[linespalsy]

1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill A Mockingbird
8. Yi Yi vs. 9. Dial M for Murder
5. Manhattan vs. 12. Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men
6. It's a Wonderful Life vs. 11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
3. The Warriors vs. 14. Contempt
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence
2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest vs. 15. The Best Years of Our Lives

1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill A Mockingbird
8. Yi Yi vs. 9. Dial M for Murder
5. Manhattan vs. 12. Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
4. The Lady from Shanghai vs. 13. Children of Men
6. It's a Wonderful Life vs. 11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
3. The Warriors vs. 14. Contempt
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence
2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest vs. 15. The Best Years of Our Lives

Still need to see numbers 16, 6, 11, and 15, which I will hopefully do before the poll is over. Also to be completely fair I'd have to re-watch both Strangelove and Manhattan, but going from a 14-year-old memory I liked Strangelove more.

[HollyG]

Here is one more 3.The Warriors vs 14. Contempt

That was a hard choice for me because I honestly really liked both films but I think I made the right choice,maybe.Now all I have to wat is 1,16,2,and 15 .

[Thursday Next]

Ok, so I've now seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off and A History of Violence and I don't really like either of them, who wants to buy my vote? :D

[MovieMan8877445]

Vote A History of Violence because it's losing. :D

[Sexy Celebrity]

Ok, so I've now seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off and A History of Violence and I don't really like either of them, who wants to buy my vote? :D

I will not mention Jake Gyllenhaal for a week if you vote for Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

[MovieMan8877445]

I will not mention Jake Gyllenhaal for a week if you vote for Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

That's a lie. He won't be able to resist mentioning Gyllenhaal. :p

[Harry Lime]

Ok, so I've now seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off and A History of Violence and I don't really like either of them, who wants to buy my vote? :D

10 random rep points for A History of Violence.

[Sexy Celebrity]

That's a lie. He won't be able to resist mentioning Gyllenhaal. :p

Alright, I admit -- it's a lie. Once you vote for something, you can't change your vote - it's the law. I would have got around that.

[MovieMan8877445]

10 random rep points for A History of Violence.

I concur. I'll join in on this as well if you vote for A History of Violence.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I will bless you and your loved ones if you vote for Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

[rauldc14]

Well folks, 5 more days for this.

[honeykid]

Wow! You care way too much about this. :D

[Godoggo]

3. The Warriors vs. 14. Contempt

I really had to force myself to sit all the way through The Warriors but I did it. I had fun making up alternative names for the gangs, but other than that I didn't like this movie. :nope:

[rauldc14]

Scoring Update with 2 days left:

1. On the Waterfront 10
16. To Kill a Mockingbird 9

8. Yi Yi 8
9. Dial M for Murder 5

5. Manhattan 3
12. Dr. Strangelove 20

4. Lady from Shanghai 3
13. Children of Men 20

6. It's a Wonderful Life 9
11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? 11

3. The Warriors 5
14. Contempt 9

7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off 17
10. A History of Violence 13

2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest 14
15. The Best Years of Our Lives 2

[ash_is_the_gal]

thank god Manhattan is losing.

[Pyro Tramp]

Come on! Some more people vote for History of Violence, please!

[Thursday Next]

Since it's behind, I'll cast my vote to even things up a little:

7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

[Deadite]

Wow, how arbitrary. :(

[rauldc14]

Need more votes for Dial M for Murder! I'm starting the campaign.

[Deadite]

I would but I haven't seen Yi Yi... ;)

[rauldc14]

me neither, which doesn't really help

[Sexy Celebrity]

Since it's behind, I'll cast my vote to even things up a little:

7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence

http://i56.tinypic.com/2zgc2s4.jpg

[mark f]

1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill a Mockingbird

[honeykid]

Why the wait, mark? I'm sure you'd seen both many times. Was it that difficult?

[rauldc14]

aye. well one day left and one tie. I may have a movie to watch tomorrow.

[mark f]

Yes, it was that difficult. It was still difficult after watching them both again. I've seen Waterfront at least 15 times and Mockingbird ten.

[voneil7]

1. On the Waterfront vs. 16. To Kill A Mockingbird
8. Yi Yi vs. 9. Dial M for Murder
5. Manhattan vs. 12. Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
6. It's a Wonderful Life vs. 11. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
7. Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. 10. A History of Violence
2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest vs. 15. The Best Years of Our Lives

[rauldc14]

3 insanely close matches with just today to go....

[planet news]

They're still pretty far apart considering how few MoFos there are left to vote who haven't already.

[ash_is_the_gal]

thank god Manhattan is losing.

die, woody allen, die!

[Sexy Celebrity]

What time does this bracket end? I've got a very excited Ferris Bueller grandfather clock that wants to know when it's safe to ring its "Ohhhh Yeah!" chimes.

http://i54.tinypic.com/dgqo2a.jpg

[ash_is_the_gal]

i'd forgotten about that for a minute or two! so i guess it's in the bag, eh? did you nominate it or is it your favorite movie or something? or do you just hate its contender?

[Sexy Celebrity]

Yeah, I nominated it -- it's not my favorite movie, but I do like it a lot -- I didn't care for A History of Violence but I don't outright despise it. Frankly, I wouldn't have cared if Ferris Bueller had lost, but Planet News was so anti-Ferris Bueller and he even got a little competitive himself, so, as long as there aren't any last minute attacks (I'll send out my ugly birds if there are) I'm gonna be excited that it won this bracket soon.

[Godoggo]

8. Yi Yi vs. 9.Dial M for Murder

Whew. Just made it.

[rauldc14]

Final Results:

On the Waterfront 10
To Kill a Mockingbird 11

Yi Yi 9
Dial M for Murder 6

Manhattan 3
Dr. Strangelove 21

Lady from Shanghai 3
Children of Men 20

It's a Wonderful Life 10
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? 11

The Warriors 5
Contempt 9

Ferris Bueller's Day Off 18
History of Violence 14

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest 15
The Best Years of Our Lives 2

[Sexy Celebrity]

Ferris Bueller's Day Off 18
History of Violence 14

http://i51.tinypic.com/2qm3r0k.png

Ferris Has Been Saved.
(Hasta la vista, A History of Violence.)

[Deadite]

chicka chickaaa

[honeykid]

Pleased Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? made it through. That's the only good news from this round, for me.

[rauldc14]

really wanted On the Waterfront to pull through but it just couldnt happen

[Godoggo]

That was a tough match. Had it gone against any other movie I would have voted for it. That's been happening for me a lot.

[Deadite]

I'm pretty indifferent to some of these matchups. Waterfront/Mockingbird, for example. They were both good but I think I could vote for either on different days.

[Sexy Celebrity]

really wanted On the Waterfront to pull through but it just couldnt happen

I feel bad. I have this and I haven't watched it yet. I would have voted for it, too, 'cause it's been forever since I've seen To Kill a Mockingbird and it didn't leave an impression.

[mark f]

So when do we advance Bracket 1 and 2 to the next round? It seems like there's no real reason to wait. People can still watch movies they haven't seen, but many voters have already done so. It also seems as if the rounds could get shorter the further into the tourney they go. I don't think the second round has to last anywhere near a month. :)

[planet news]

So when do we advance Bracket 1 and 2 to the next round? It seems like there's no real reason to wait. People can still watch movies they haven't seen, but many voters have already done so. It also seems as if the rounds could get shorter the further into the tourney they go. I don't think the second round has to last anywhere near a month. :)I strongly disagree. I for one am not in any shape to do any more voting for quite a while after the disastrous result of Bracket 2. My God man. Have some respect for what just transpired here. Yes, here; in this very thread not three days ago.

[mark f]

I "agree" that Contempt should have been smoked, but I say let the Dead bury the Dead. R.I.P. Round 1. Long live Round 2 (at least until it too kicks the bucket).

[rauldc14]

Within the next couple of days I'll open round 2 for bracket 1 and 2. And I figure it to only last 2 weeks, since we shouldn't need a month.

[honeykid]

I "agree" that Contempt should have been smoked, but I say let the Dead bury the Dead. R.I.P. Round 1. Long live Round 2 (at least until it too kicks the bucket).
I agree. It's a terrible shame that Contempt made it past The Warriors. I couldn't even vote for the (far superior) film I nominated as I hadn't seen Contempt. And I d/l'ed it... Twice! Never could get the subs to work. :(

[Sexy Celebrity]

I strongly disagree. I for one am not in any shape to do any more voting for quite a while after the disastrous result of Bracket 2. My God man. Have some respect for what just transpired here. Yes, here; in this very thread not three days ago.

Cheer up. The bad thing about Ferris Bueller winning is that now I have to fight for him all over again, with a new contender -- something that already beat out something else. It'll be tough, but he's up for it.

http://home.xnet.com/~madman/fbdo/images/fbdo2.jpg
... again.

[planet news]

I was actually talking about To Kill A Mockingbird.

[ash_is_the_gal]

sheesh. talk about a sore loser. plenty of stuff i love and thought should have won actually lost to things i found meh, but i'm still way into this tournament. actually, i practically forgot this WAS a competition. i was so busy watching and appreciating all the art. that's the greatest thing that's transpired here - lots of Mofos coming together, watching the films, discussing them, broadening their horizons.

cool, man. :cool:

[Godoggo]

I agree. It's a terrible shame that Contempt made it past The Warriors. I couldn't even vote for the (far superior) film I nominated as I hadn't seen Contempt. And I d/l'ed it... Twice! Never could get the subs to work. :(

Wish you would have said something. It's on youtube, as are a lot of these movies. Oh well, you can watch it for next go around.

[honeykid]

sheesh. talk about a sore loser. plenty of stuff i love and thought should have won actually lost to things i found meh, but i'm still way into this tournament. actually, i practically forgot this WAS a competition. i was so busy watching and appreciating all the art. that's the greatest thing that's transpired here - lots of Mofos coming together, watching the films, discussing them, broadening their horizons.

cool, man. :cool:

lol... I'm glad you're getting so much out of it.

Nevermind, Godoggo. Thanks for telling me. Maybe I'll take a look at it. :)

[ash_is_the_gal]

lol... I'm glad you're getting so much out of it.

pity laugh!

[honeykid]

Not pity. It is good that you're seeing lots of films you're liking.

I've sat here, with To Kill A Mockingbird unseen, a reason to watch it, a deadline and I still didn't manage it. :D

[ash_is_the_gal]

you've never seen To Kill a Mockingbird?

[ash_is_the_gal]

Not pity. It is good that you're seeing lots of films you're liking.

I've sat here, with To Kill A Mockingbird unseen, a reason to watch it, a deadline and I still didn't manage it. :D

i didn't like all of them. some of them i kinda disliked, but i still appreciated watching them, because of how they are regarded.

that's all i meant before. still sad All About Eve didn't make it, but ah well. i can't remember if Sunset Blvd - another one i nominated - made it through, but i'm okay with it if it didn't, because The Grapes of Wrath is a worthy contender.

[honeykid]

Nope, never seen To Kill A Mockingbird. Had little desire to, but I recorded it as it's considered a classic (and a classic novel as well) so I thought I might watch it someday. And I still might.

[ash_is_the_gal]

i really love the book. always have. the film is pretty good too, though.

[rauldc14]

i didn't like all of them. some of them i kinda disliked, but i still appreciated watching them, because of how they are regarded.

that's all i meant before. still sad All About Eve didn't make it, but ah well. i can't remember if Sunset Blvd - another one i nominated - made it through, but i'm okay with it if it didn't, because The Grapes of Wrath is a worthy contender.


Sunset Boulevard is about to move on. It's in bracket 3 and has a commanding lead.

[ash_is_the_gal]

glad to hear it!

[honeykid]

Well, I voted for both Eve and Boulevard, so I was good with both picks.