The UK Voting Referendum

[Golgot]

These cats are slightly biased, but I enjoyed their overview :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiHuiDD_oTk

For what it's worth, I'll be voting yes. But with even AV-friendly London polling at around 34% yes, I doubt we'll get past the post. Ironic? (Not really in a 2 issue vote - but anyway ;)).

AV ('-') is a fairly muddled and 'compromised' system, but as the vid points out, almost all our political parties are happy to use it for their own leadership elections (and London used it to elect our Mayor - who is against it incidentally). It's nothing more than a stepping stone towards some form of PR (or more likely, just 'away' from 'FPTP'). I don't like to vote 'against' things per se, but I am inordinately frustrated at having my vote almost certainly count for nothing if I vote for someone other than the local favourite (and FPTP's morays, and in-power gerrymandering, almost always generate this scenario).

A lot of the aspersions cast against AV are outlier events rather than inevitable outcomes that have been portrayed: Extremist empowerment (for this to happen the BNP et al need to actually win a seat for a start, which still looks unlikely given their general support and alternatives for 'Europhiles' etc. And even then it takes more of a Le Penn movement as seen in France for them to act as any kind of 'kingmaker' or fulcrum); Blandification to appeal to all (as 10 O'Clock Live put it, could our politicians get any more centrist/bland/disengenuous??). And as for the cost. Plz.

Anyways, enough ramble, what are some other Brits' thoughts on the subject? *EDIT* Or non-Brits for that matter - I know Aussies have AV in part, and the US is fairly 'past the posty'. There are certainly plenty of pros and cons worth chewing over :)

[Golgot]

Here's B3ta (http://b3ta.com/challenge/yesornotoav/)'s ever-so-thoughtful take on the issue ;)

http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/69639/1303149983/voteb3ta2.gif

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7844/90858986.jpg

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6710/av2j.jpg

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1451/no2av.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5613/b3tamonty.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7188/avitw.th.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/avitw.jpg/)

[Yoda]

Seems like one of those things where both systems have their strong suits and the wisdom of each probably varies in time and in place. I am rather curious as to what sorts of results a switch would produce, though. I can't tell if having to campaign to persuade voters that dislike you to rank you a little higher would be a good thing or not. Does that sort of thing foster cooperation and understanding, or breed resentment and horse-trading?

That said, this is a movie site, and the Oscars did recently switch to something equivalent (or roughly equivalent) to AV (or "instant runoff" voting) to determine Best Picture. Just sayin'.

[Golgot]

Seems like one of those things where both systems have their strong suits and the wisdom of each probably varies in time and in place.

True that. The Aussie system of mixing AV & FTPT in their two houses, to try and apply the strengths of each (and counter balance the weaknesses) is interesting tho. What makes this a pressure cooker issue here is that this is a rare opportunity try an alternative system (& the 'third' party have basically bet the farm on getting it - if they don't we may well be looking at another 35 years before the next referendum, with a polarised '2 party only' system continuing to dominate). We've had FPTP pretty much our entire modern history, as far as I know (just with increasing levels of enfranchisment I believe).

I am rather curious as to what sorts of results a switch would produce, though. I can't tell if having to campaign to persuade voters that dislike you to rank you a little higher would be a good thing or not. Does that sort of thing foster cooperation and understanding, or breed resentment and horse-trading?

*EDIT* Yeah that's where the accusation of ''blandification' comes in, but I'm not sure it's possible for the current crop to centralise their positions much more and/or soften their image to opponent groups while appearing on-message internally. Media coverage / snooping is just too ubiquitous now. One unsavoury outcome therefore might be that they'll try, but contantly snoop on each other / get found out.

I'm not a fan of the morass of 'horse trading' that many more proportional set ups result in, with endlessly hung parliaments and the like (& indeed this compromised pitch for change sprang from hurried negotiations within a minor version of that here). That's partially why I like they 'checks and balances' appearance of the Aussie set up (even if they don't address the 'hung' issue per se, - plus I hear Aussie don't like the AV aspect ;))

That said, this is a movie site, and the Oscars did recently switch to something equivalent (or roughly equivalent) to AV (or "instant runoff" voting) to determine Best Picture. Just sayin'.

Yes, and the Brits won. Sounds like a perfect system ;)

[Yoda]

True that. The Aussie system of mixing AV & FTPT in their two houses, to try and apply the strengths of each (and counter balance the weaknesses) is interesting tho.
That is interesting. I can definitely imagine that one system might produce a better Congress or Parliament, but another a better single leader. Though I'd say there will always be problems. FTPT is obviously a bit more zero-sum and probably a bit more divisive, but then again there are plenty of times where having a lone voice rise above the others is important, lest everything be created by committee or based on polling data, so that we get less horrendously unpopular things, but also less bold, visionary things. AV would seem to raise the floor and lower the ceiling a bit for these types of initiatives, at least in theory.

Actually, the more I think about it, AV seems like it would try to create through electoral engineering what's supposed to happen somewhat naturally with FPTP. That is, AV = almost all candidates are more moderate, whereas with FPTP = candidates are more ideologically aligned, but on aggregate they're about as moderate. The benefit to FPTP here being that instead of a bunch of moderates agreeing, you get the type of spirited (and even angry) debate that, as much as everyone says they hate it, is clearly the best way to separate good ideas from bad over time. Though as you say, I'm sure the reality would be less stark.

I guess, the more I talk through it, the more I prefer FPTP, but that's because I'm pretty thoroughly American and I have an affinity for (and general belief in the effectiveness of) ideas fighting to the death in some kind of public arena. But I realize this probably puts me at odds with most Britlanders and it's entirely possible that AV is a better cultural fit for you folks.

What makes this a pressure cooker issue here is that this is a rare opportunity try an alternative system (& the 'third' party have basically bet the farm on getting it - if they don't we may well be looking at another 35 years before the next referendum, with a polarised '2 party only' system continuing to dominate). We've had FPTP pretty much our entire modern history, as far as I know (just with increasing levels of enfranchisment I believe).
Might be helpful to clarify what you mean by a 2-party only system. You've obviously got far more prominent third and fourth parties across the pond than we do over here. Do you mean 2-party in the sense that you'll never have a Green PM, or something?

*EDIT* Yeah that's where the accusation of ''blandification' comes in, but I'm not sure it's possible for the current crop to centralise their positions much more and/or soften their image to opponent groups while appearing on message internally. Media coverage / snooping is just too ubiquitous now. One unsavoury outcome therefore might be that they'll try, but contantly snoop / get found out.

I'm not a fan of the morass of 'horse trading' that many more proportional set ups result in, with endlessly hung parliaments and the like (& indeed this compromised pitch for change sprang hurried negotiations within a minor version of that here). That's partially why I like they 'checks and balances' appearance of the Aussie set up (even if they don't address the 'hung' issue per se, - plus I hear Aussie don't like the AV aspect ;))
Interestingly enough, you could probably sell a lot of American conservatives on the system precisely because it'll lead to hung Parliaments and make things more difficult to enact. Plenty of people over here who think the government governs best when it governs least. Any conservatives over there thinking of voting for AV based on that idea, or has Cameron's stance on it made this pretty much a party-line thing?

Yes, and the Brits won. Sounds like a perfect system ;)
Aye, but given what they picked one could also fear that AV will lead to a resurgence of the monarchy. Between The King's Speech and the Royal Wedding, I smell a bourgeoisie revolution.

By the way, In Trade (an online betting market) has the odds at 50/50 right now, though I can't tell if that's because they just added it and aren't sure where it'll end up.

[Golgot]

That is interesting. I can definitely imagine that one system might produce a better Congress or Parliament, but another a better single leader.

As I understand it they've split it between the two major 'houses'/statuatory bodies, with I believe the initial 'parliament' being FPTP and the 'check and balance' 'Lords'/upper house being AV. Any Aussies here can doubtless clarify. (I've got an excellent New Scientist breakdown of current systems and pros & cons which I'll thumb through later and see if it can add anything here).

There are plenty of times where having a lone voice rise above the others is important, lest everything be created by committee or based on polling data, so that we get less horrendously unpopular things, but also less bold, visionary things. AV would seem to raise the floor and lower the ceiling a bit for these types of initiatives, at least in theory.

Actually, the more I think about it, AV seems like it would try to create through electoral engineering what's supposed to happen somewhat naturally with FPTP. That is, AV = almost all candidates are more moderate, whereas with FPTP = candidates are more ideologically aligned, but on aggregate they're about as moderate.

Agreed on the 'squeezed/stifled debating arena' analogy in theory, but I think the idea that candidates would be generally more moderate is an illusion. Certainly they'd espouse moderation in public, but I imagine it'd just be a sop. (Not to say that it wouldn't force political debate more behind closed doors, but I do have a reasonable amount of faith in the power of press and public interest to fathom key aspects of what they're really up to - even if some of this will come via the increased backstabbing and whistleblowing mentioned - not that it isn't de rigueur already ;)).

It's worth noting that we've had very commitee/polling-data led politics in the UK since it powered the '97 Labour success as it is. I think it is the minor presence of alternative parties that's forced this level of visual 'pastuerisation' / image-molding, which does bode poorly for AV - but I genuinely do wonder how much further they can take what's already a very 'centralised' environment of spun agendas.

The benefit to FPTP here being that instead of a bunch of moderates agreeing, you get the type of spirited (and even angry) debate that, as much as everyone says they hate it, is clearly the best way to separate good ideas from bad over time. Though as you say, I'm sure the reality would be less stark.

The coalition government has been a model of angry debate to be honest, when it comes to principle differences like the AV vote - and the coalition format in some way presages what we might expect under AV voting. (After the 'honeymoon' of dealmaking at any rate).

I guess, the more I talk through it, the more I prefer FPTP, but that's because I'm pretty thoroughly American and I have an affinity for (and general belief in the effectiveness of) ideas fighting to the death in some kind of public arena. But I realize this probably puts me at odds with most Britlanders and it's entirely possible that AV is a better cultural fit for you folks.

Erm, hello, birth of modern parliamentary debate-democracy over here ;). Certainly we're less visceral in our debate style over here (& our media coverage), but that's not to say public arena debate isn't still central to our system. We just like to think it's less hysterical over here :P. (What's interesting about the Lib-Con clashes over AV is how visceral they do become tho when they break cover from the apparent 'everyman' broth).

Might be helpful to clarify what you mean by a 2-party only system. You've obviously got far more prominent third and fourth parties across the pond than we do over here. Do you mean 2-party in the sense that you'll never have a Green PM, or something?

You're right that the '3rd' party of the Lib Dems has much more of a look in over here, but nothing on the level of what their (recently evapourated) voting base might expect (as they never get near the gerrymandering keys like the first two). In that sense they struggle to have any impact on either of the big sluggers. Certainly the candidate returns seem massively more 2 party aligned in the US (but I believe you could argue that public 'off message' debate within each of the big two is currently far stronger your side).

Interestingly enough, you could probably sell a lot of American conservatives on the system precisely because it'll lead to hung Parliaments and make things more difficult to enact. Plenty of people over here who think the government governs best when it governs least. Any conservatives over there thinking of voting for AV based on that idea, or has Cameron's stance on it made this pretty much a party-line thing?

The Cameron Gov are as disappointing to Big C Conservatives as Bush was to you guys ;). They've chosen pragmatics over idealogy on this - they'd much rather hold the keys the voting-boundary cupboard and keep themselves in or near power than risk seeing someone else implement their beliefs, even by default. I'm not aware of one Tory coming out for AV to date. (Equally no Libs have come out for FPTP that I know of, whereas Labour are splitting down idealogy/pragmatism lines).

Aye, but given what they picked one could also fear that AV will lead to a resurgence of the monarchy. Between The King's Speech and the Royal Wedding, I smell a bourgeoisie revolution.

V..vv..vvvVVIVA the revolution ;)

By the way, In Trade (an online betting market) has the odds at 50/50 right now, though I can't tell if that's because they just added it and aren't sure where it'll end up.

Yeah be interesting to see where they go on that. I do like this whole new world of 'wisdom of the crowds' betting markets that are springing up.

[Tacitus]

We've had PR-style elections here for as long as I can remember, with the added ingredient of D'Hont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method) to turn the whole thing into a hash of the finest order.

The only FPTP ones left are the Westminster elections, which are becoming an increasing irrelevance as more powers get devolved back to us. I'll be, however, voting for AV (we've got the referendum, council and NI Assembly elections all on the same day - the amount of election posters around the town is frightening :D) on the basis that if the Tories don't want it, it must be good.

That's how interested I am in Westminster these days. ;)

[Golgot]

We've had PR-style elections here for as long as I can remember, with the added ingredient of D'Hont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method) to turn the whole thing into a hash of the finest order.

Wow, D'Hondt looks as clear as a tinted-windowed Honda, buried in mud.

I'll be, however, voting for AV (we've got the referendum, council and NI Assembly elections all on the same day - the amount of election posters around the town is frightening :D) on the basis that if the Tories don't want it, it must be good.

I'm amazed this sentiment hasn't been more apparent ;)

(The Lib Dem self flagellation has been bizarre to behold. Let's vote against ourselves coz we're pissed off with us etc.)

[rufnek]

You know, I read all these entries and I still don't know what y'all are talking about.

[Yoda]

FPTP is the style of voting in which the most votes win, even if the winner only manages a plurality. AV is also known as "instant runoff" voting, where voters list candidates in order of preference, and if no candidate gets a majority the lowest vote-getter is removed from the ballots, the next-highest choice on each of those lists is moved up, and you re-tabulate. You do this as necessary until someone has over 50% of the first-place votes.

[Tacitus]

Wow, D'Hondt looks as clear as a tinted-windowed Honda, buried in mud.

Convoluted systems like that are necessary here at this point in time, I think. We're hugely over-represented with 108 MLAs for 1.7 million people (plus 20something councils and 9 MPs) but the fudge which PR helps create, along with mandatory coalition by the 2 largest parties from the formerly warring tribes, means that there's little opportunity for triumphal gloating in electoral victory and calls-to-arms in defeat.

As our democracy becomes more mature I trust we'll not ditch PR or D'Hondt but drastically decrease the number of elected representatives. For instance my constituency, Fermanagh & South Tyrone, has 6 MLAs in Stormont. Crazy when you consider that the biggest town, Dungannon, houses 15,000 people.

All political groupings (apart from various lunatic fringe candidates and the Tories) are represented in Stormont which is, of course, the reason for the joy of AV's supporters and the ire of its detractors. Mandatory coalition is what really creates the fudge, though - I can't imagine we're mature enough to have a country led wholly by Unionist or Nationalist parties just yet. PR is the mixing bowl. ;)

[Golgot]

Interesting stuff Tatty! I wonder if there's anywhere else using the same system to work through a violent partisan split?

And Yoda, you are more succinct than a cat ;)

[planet news]

That cat video was hilarious.

A lot of people claim that this kind of "problem" (pht'put') was what allowed Bush to win in the key Florida counties circa 2000 election. In this case it was Nader taking away votes from Gore.

[Golgot]

Yeah I'm just reading (http://www.science.org.au/nova/newscientist/049ns_001.htm) about that now. The whole 'outliers detract' thing, never gaining the seat themselves but often landing us with the second favourite. (Intriguingly, the article suggests 'range voting' at one point IE the starring system used by Youtube etc ;) - Altho unsurprisingly, that too has its flaws ;)).

It looks at the work of a guy called Arrow who tried to compare available systems. Makes some interesting brief cases for 'One person, more than one vote' :)

[Tacitus]

Interesting stuff Tatty! I wonder if there's anywhere else using the same system to work through a violent partisan split?

And Yoda, you are more succinct than a cat ;)

Seeing as professional Art Garfunkel lookalike and Royal Wedding avoider Martin McGuinness has been shilling the NI Peace Process (TM) model around various hotspots for the last half decade it's a distinct possibility.

A fair few places use a D'Hondt type model - It's similar to the Jefferson system in America - but I don't know how many would be willing to subscribe to straining the public purse by massively over-employing elected representatives so that no one side can clearly win a willy-measuring contest. ;)

We've got 20 fewer MLAs than Scotland but under half the population...

[Ash_Lee]

I'll be voting "YES." I'm in two minds about both FPTP and AV, they both have their pros and cons, but I'm mostly voting for a change just to see how it goes.

If AV succeeds and it turns out to be a great system that works well for everyone, then hurrah. If it doesn't, I feel like we have something of a safety net in the Tories and some members of the Labour Party (I assume they're split on this), who'd be only too happy to go back to FPTP. Not that I think we would go back, this isn't the first change that's been made regarding how we vote, and it probably won't be the last.

Any system where an MP can be elected with only 25% of his constituents votes seems broken to me, no matter how little that happens.

Dan Snow presents probably the clearest explanation I've seen for how AV works, and how it could be better than FPTP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtW3QkX8Xa0&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI8bef3weGw&feature=player_embedded

[Tacitus]

For the first time in my adult life I'd been seriously considering not voting. Watching a couple of quite dreadful performances in the Leaders' Debate yesterday was almost the final nail in the coffin - I've been an SDLP voter ever since I moved back here but Margaret Richie is dragging the party down further than Mark Durkin ever did, and Durkin was undone by Blair's need to manoeuver Sinn Fein into being the largest Nationalist party.

I think I'm better now, though. Somebody has to stand up for what's right in this dysfunctional little Statelet!

I'm also voting 'Yes' to piss off Cameron and, locally, Peter Robinson and looking forward to a ballot paper which resembles a toilet roll. ;)

[Tacitus]

Nice little debate-ette about AV between Armando 'In The Loop' Iannucci and Peter 'lapdancing club' Stringfellow.

Link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gqswh)

Iannucci, who I've got a great deal of time for and has been one of my favourite comedy writers for years, has just had his new show commissioned by HBO.

[Golgot]

Hah, he mentioned that on Question Time last night. Bizarre state of affairs. And an example of how paltry the Yes campaign has been, as he says (and no disrespect to him intended, he's come out swinging for it as a 'celeb' fairly grudgingly).

Early results are even worse than the polls for AV. Coming in at over 2:1 for no at the moment. I don't know if it's encouraging or discouraging that we've had 'high' turnout in the non-local-election areas (well, over 30% anyway ;)). Seems between elections the only thing that gets us out is maintaining the status quo. Sigh.

I genuinely can't understand why people would get this 'militant' over FTPT, other than being wedded to Tory/Labour positions to the extent that they'd overlook the pretty undemocratic circumstances that underpins their political dominance. Either that or they believed the 'babies will die if you vote for AV' smear campaign. Double sigh :rolleyes:

[Ash_Lee]

Hah, he mentioned that on Question Time last night. Bizarre state of affairs. And an example of how paltry the Yes campaign has been, as he says (and no disrespect to him intended, he's come out swinging for it as a 'celeb' fairly grudgingly).

Early results are even worse than the polls for AV. Coming in at over 2:1 for no at the moment. I don't know if it's encouraging or discouraging that we've had 'high' turnout in the non-local-election areas (well, over 30% anyway ;)). Seems between elections the only thing that gets us out is maintaining the status quo. Sigh.

I genuinely can't understand why people would get this 'militant' over FTPT, other than being wedded to Tory/Labour positions to the extent that they'd overlook the pretty undemocratic circumstances that underpins their political dominance. Either that or they believed the 'babies will die if you vote for AV' smear campaign. Double sigh :rolleyes:

Paddy Ashdown used this quote beautifully;

"A lie can be halfway around the world before the truth can even get its boots on"

I've got no problem with people genuinely wanting to keep FPTP, but in my own experience the people I know who've voted No did so because of the "costs" (which the No campaign have admitted were made up) and because they didn't want their 3rd choice to win (even though they don't have to choose a 3rd choice, or even a 2nd choice).

If that's what's been happening nationwide then it's a shame, but like I say, its only my own experience.

Not that the Yes campaign did much to counter this, the only information I've seen in favour of it has been on the internet, and most of that I had to look for myself. Those Dan Snow videos I posted came up on my Stumbleupon bar, and as I haven't come across them since I have to assume I wouldn't have seen them otherwise.

I've seen no adverts on television, I've seen no billboards on buildings or buses, no posts on the sides of roads, not even a leaflet through my door.

:mad:

[Golgot]

I'm yet to meet anyone who was voting no, but maybe that's just a London thing, or the circles I move in. The idea that anyone could fall for that bare-faced bullsh*t is kinda shocking (and a sad reflection on democracies' built-in limits, but hey ho ;))

The Tory war chest was definitely in evidence in terms of the 'public debate'. The Evening Standard's press academic made the interesting point that the papers have been almost entirely no-friendly (& in the '75 referendum were equally status quo orientated). The Murdoch rags I can understand, but I guess what it reveals is that the rest are labour aligned, and in the absence of a party line, were going for the pragmatic "let's not make a fuss" stance / keep our guys near power. Pretty disappointing.

I get that AV (-) is a paltry option, but still, this basically ensconces the Tories without response (they got their gerrymandering through the door in the AV bill) and means Lords reform will go the same way (just 'balancing' it, IE getting rid of Labourite lords and plonking Tory ones in). Pretty tepid democracy all told.

I'm consoling myself with sarcasm ;)

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/981/notoavbabyimage3.png

---

*EDIT* - dammit Ash you negged me. Talk about insult to injury ;)

[Tacitus]

My mum voted 'No'!

When pressed (and when I mentioned that the DUP and UUP were firm No advocates) she started to blush. I didn't press the issue. ;)

Complete farce over here in the count(s) with the vast majority not being declared until this afternoon and the local councils not even beginning until Monday. The Omagh count centre was the funniest of the lot - Ballot boxes getting soaked and workers asked to bring hairdryers to dry out the ballot papers, count staff locking themselves out of laptops which had the verified vote figures and a table collapsing with thousands of counted votes on it, necessitating a recount. Reports are now coming through of a full recount for the West Tyrone constituency (Omagh is in charge of two constituency's counts) after two candidates have already been deemed 'elected' in the first round.

Total and utter shambles.

[honeykid]

You're right, Tacitus, it was a shambles, both campaigns were a disgrace (both in terms of what was said and the level of infomation and debate) but, sadly, aimed at about the level of politics in this country now. :(

For the record, had I voted, I'd have voted "no". But then, I have little to no respect for the electorate of this country and wouldn't trust half of them to sit the right way on a toilet.

[The Prestige]

Rar, they actually set up a polling station at my gym the other week. All I know is that the Tories are ****ing us hard. Real hard. Without a condom too.

[Tacitus]

D'Hondt has, as they say, been triggered at Stormont and I actually kinda know how it works now:

Party with largest number of seats gets first ministerial pick, then party #2. The two party's number of seats gets halved and the biggest again (to facilitate a party in a strong 3rd place) gets 3rd pick, then 4th. Etc Etc.

We've got the DUP in charge of Finance, Enterprise, Social Development and Health

Sinn Féin with Education, Agriculture and Culture, Arts and Leisure

UUP with Regional Development (basically roads, electricity, water, gas)

SDLP with Environment and Alliance with Employment

Alliance, even though they're the smallest party in the Executive get another post in Justice because it was decided a while back not to run that particular ministry through D'Hondt until, basically, everyone in the country grows up a bit so they've given it to the only sizeable 'unaligned' party.

Quick shout out to the mayor of the town where I live, who is the new Agriculture minister, Michelle O'Neill. She's one of her party's rising stars and extremely capable.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/greenspagbol/oneill-p4.jpg

She's also the most attractive Sinn Fein politician by a long way - Google John O'Dowd (Education) or Carál Ní Chuilín (culture). I dare you!

Warning: If you've got young children or nervous animals around the monitor, shade their eyes first. ;)

EDIT - To keep things politically balanced, here's a picture of the DUP's Edwin 'my surname means something naughty in Aussie slang' Poots: Relax girls, he's married (http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/edwin-poots-dcal-min_21734t.jpg?w=223&h=300)

[Golgot]

Oo careful! The Nazis always coveted the Justice positions ;) (And Education. Not that I'm slurring your good Fein mind you ;)).

That's interesting that everyone divvies up the ministerial roles in order. 'Environment' & 'Employment' are the skinny kids who got picked last then ;).

(Did the DUP want Health for ideological reasons d'you know? The 'NHS' is a bit of a hot potato in recession times. Do they favour ringfence or pillage etc?)

[Tacitus]

Slur away at Sinn Féin, Golg, can't stand 'em. I'm shallow enough, though, to figure that there should be more attractive blondes in politics, no matter what their party. ;)

Truth of the matter is that no one wanted Health and it was the second last ministry to be picked. It's a funding matter - the NHS eats the most out of a Block Grant which has been reduced significantly by the Tories. It's probably best that the party with charge of the Finance position takes it on, so the new Health minister can't whine and politick as much as the last one, from an opposing party, did.

Mandatory coalition is a strange beast indeed - there's no formal Opposition so the various ministries are only held to account by Committee Chairs. It's a bit of a carve-up to be honest, but a necessary one at this moment in time.

[The Rodent]

Bump for the Brexit.


For those MoFos who don't know what's going on, in a few days, Britain votes on whether or not to stay in the EU.


France has said that if we leave, they're going to stop border control and let anyone and anything, terrorists or not, get across the channel and into the UK.


Germany's finance minister is sending threats to the UK saying that if we leave, the UK will not have access to the single market and will not be allowed any sort of negotiation like the other non-EU countries have. We will be blanked, ignored, blocked and basically banned. Apparently.


It's all scare mongering and tactics. Ok, sure, they may well blank us in market negotiations... but the fact is, the EU will lose £14b annually if we leave the EU... that's £14b minimum, there's also the £10b+ from trade taxes... and they're panicking as they don't have the ways or means to replace the cash they'll lose from our exit.


I think an annual £14b-£24b would be better spent on the NHS and Schools than lining the pockets of the suits that dictate what we can and can't do in our own Kingdom.
If trade is the only thing the EU can threaten us with... I'd suggest that as a country, we start producing things again, build industry back up again, make cars, farm. Reopen coal mines maybe?
Like we did in the old days.
And then trade with Switzerland, Iceland and Norway, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan... et al.




Where I stand right now on Stay Or Go... I'm currently on the fence... still researching and crunching numbers so I can make the right choice.
But if the suits across the channel keep throwing threats at us to hide their fear of losing their little money-maker, I'll be ticking Leave without even thinking about my decision and flicking my bowfingers to their childish posturing.

[Omnizoa]

What are the advantages of leaving?

[honeykid]

Basically this is a choice of what you want. Most people don't care and, as there isn't really a 'right' answer, most are confused. I've spoken to quite a few people about this over the last year or so and, with the exception of those who want to be out to be out and those who want to be in to be in, I've found most people don't really understand what it is they're being asked to stay in or opt out of. The arguments change from day to day but, for the most part, immigration seems to be the largest motivating factor for those who want to leave and the economy for those who want to stay.

The problem is that there isn't a solid answer to either argument. There's no certainty that we'll be better or worse off outside the EU in terms of the economy. Likewise, there's no way we can know whether there'll be less immigration if we leave because part of any trade deal with the EU will almost certainly have to include jobs being advertised in the EU without discrimination.

This is all a result of a cluster**** of a policy by a weak Prime Minister who's having to go through with an election promise he never thought he'd have to back up..

[Omnizoa]

immigration seems to be the largest motivating factor for those who want to leave and the economy for those who want to stay.

The problem is that there isn't a solid answer to either argument. There's no certainty that we'll be better or worse off outside the EU in terms of the economy. Likewise, there's no way we can know whether there'll be less immigration if we leave
People want to "leave" so that less people arrive?

[honeykid]

Yes. Being a member of the EU means you have to agree to the free movement of labour. That means that about 500 million people have the legal right to come to work in your country. Now that's the same for every member, but obviously those with larger economies are the most likely destinations for anyone wishing to do that.

Of course, we also have the former colonies and Commonwealth countries to consider and there's some people who don't like that those people (with whom some feel we have a debt or connection to) shouldn't be pushed aside for someone from the EU.

[Omnizoa]

Yes. Being a member of the EU means you have to agree to the free movement of labour. That means that about 500 million people have the legal right to come to work in your country.
Hmmm.

I never got that. Why is work a right? It's an exchange of labour for tender, it's essentially a deal between two people.

Why do I have to ask for permission to mow someone's friggen' lawn?

[Tacitus]

You don't expect to ask permission to fly out and mow someone's lawn in China? Australia?

Another way to understand it is thusly: I could go and live (and work), tomorrow, in France, permanently, but couldn't expect to do that in a non-EU country.

[Omnizoa]

You don't expect to ask permission to fly out and mow someone's lawn in China? Australia?

Another way to understand it is thusly: I could go and live (and work), tomorrow, in France, permanently, but couldn't expect to do that in a non-EU country.
So they want to impose restrictions because other countries impose restrictions?

[honeykid]

No. Think of the EU like a club. You pay your fees to be a member and, as a member, you get the benefits of the club and being part of the club. Those who want to leave don't want to be part of the club for varying reasons, depending on the person.

Some don't like the rules, some don't like the club, some don't think it's worth the fees, while some don't think we get enough from it.

[Omnizoa]

No. Think of the EU like a club. You pay your fees to be a member and, as a member, you get the benefits of the club and being part of the club. Those who want to leave don't want to be part of the club for varying reasons, depending on the person.

Some don't like the rules, some don't like the club, some don't think it's worth the fees, while some don't think we get enough from it.
The main argument for leaving the club being that you get people wanting to work in your country...

[honeykid]

For some people, yes.

[Omnizoa]

For some people, yes.
That's silly.

[CiCi]

That's silly.

It is, what baffles me as well is that people who are voting out are half of the time moaning about immigrants from outside the EU, for example, my sister and her boyfriend are voting leave because of "pakis" to directly quote them.

[The Rodent]

No. Think of the EU like a club. You pay your fees to be a member and, as a member, you get the benefits of the club and being part of the club. Those who want to leave don't want to be part of the club for varying reasons, depending on the person.

Some don't like the rules, some don't like the club, some don't think it's worth the fees, while some don't think we get enough from it.





The major problem, is that we haemorrhage up to £24b a year... and we get hardly anything back.
All we DO get, is some French and Germans telling Brits what they can and can't do in Britain.




The main argument for leaving the club being that you get people wanting to work in your country...



If we leave, we get back our borders. At the moment, the EU dictate what we can and can't do with our own borders. If they say we have to take in another 4 billion refugees, then we HAVE to. No choice. At all.


The huge thing with immigration, is we have no jobs in the UK as it is. I was job hunting a while back, I applied for almost 1500 tiny jobs in the area, like, 3 hours a week and stuff.
I found out that there were up to 15,000 people applying for the same jobs.
Then the EU says we have to take in more people.

[Nausicaä]

It's the lesser of two evils for me. I am voting to stay in the EU, it's going to be a sad and angry day for me if it ends up Britain is out.

:furious::bawling:

[The Rodent]

I'm still researching :D


Naus has it summed up pretty well... there's two evils here, and it's the situation of picking the lesser.

[CiCi]

It's the lesser of two evils for me. I am voting to stay in the EU, it's going to be a sad and angry day for me if it ends up Britain is out.

:furious::bawling:

This is basically my attitude about it all, I'm not really for either side, but you couldn't pay me to vote for something Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson condone, not that Dodgy Dave is much better either, though.

[The Rodent]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32793642


Decent run down...

[Omnizoa]

The huge thing with immigration, is we have no jobs in the UK as it is. I was job hunting a while back, I applied for almost 1500 tiny jobs in the area, like, 3 hours a week and stuff.
I found out that there were up to 15,000 people applying for the same jobs.
Then the EU says we have to take in more people.
In that case there's a bigger issue: Why is EU sending anyone anywhere? Is it just the countries receiving immigrants wanting to get rid of them?

What if I specifically want to work somewhere like France? Is EU gonna say "no" and send me to the UK?

[The Rodent]

Well, with the EU controlling our borders, and the agreement of the Union, if someone from France, Germany etc sees a job in the UK, they can apply for it, and have completely free access to it.


Also, the current migrant crisis with Syria too. The EU can technically turn around and say "The UK must take ALL of the refugees, every single one of them" and the UK would HAVE to take them, and would not be able to argue the case as the UK is not in control of anything... the EU suits are in control. If they say something, we have to do it.

[The Rodent]

The problem with Brits, is the mindset of "We don't like having someone else telling us what we can and can't do, especially Krauts and Frogs."


That's not exactly my own point of view btw, but it is for a huge percentage of the British population.

[The Rodent]

One thing that sticks in my mind with the EU...


Most of the members of the EU, are getting poorer and poorer as the years go on. Greece is bankrupt ffs.
Yet, Germany gets richer and richer... it's mainly Germany in charge too.


Take that, and add the fact that there's one currency, the Euro.


Germany in charge of a United States Of Europe, with Germny getting richer and more powerful while the other states get poorer, with one currency across the board... is exactly what we were fighting against Hitler for.

[Omnizoa]

if someone from France, Germany etc sees a job in the UK, they can apply for it, and have completely free access to it.

Also, the current migrant crisis with Syria too. The EU can technically turn around and say "The UK must take ALL of the refugees, every single one of them" and the UK would HAVE to take them, and would not be able to argue the case as the UK is not in control of anything...
The UK doesn't have any say at all in the EU? Somehow I don't buy that.

Even if only a couple individual countries are calling the shots, why? Where's the fairness in that?

Germany in charge of a United States Of Europe, with Germny getting richer and more powerful while the other states get poorer, with one currency across the board... is exactly what we were fighting against Hitler for.
Uhhh...

[The Rodent]

The European Union is governed by Brussels. They bring in a new rule/law, and say that all in the EU must abide, and then the various parliaments debate it, and then implement it.


70% of UK laws were put in place by the EU. Schooling, healthcare, justice, labouring, trades etc etc... all came from the EU suits.
They say what we can and can't do. Membership in the EU is defined as whatever Brussels says, we have to do. They are the heads. They are the bosses.
If you're in the EU, you gotta do as you're told.

[Omnizoa]

The European Union is governed by Brussels. They bring in a new rule/law, and say that all in the EU must abide, and then the various parliaments debate it, and then implement it.


70% of UK laws were put in place by the EU. Schooling, healthcare, justice, labouring, trades etc etc... all came from the EU suits.
They say what we can and can't do. Membership in the EU is defined as whatever Brussels says, we have to do. They are the heads. They are the bosses.
If you're in the EU, you gotta do as you're told.
Why did Britain ever agree to that in the first place?

[The Rodent]

Free trade. Simple as.


Pay a fee and join the club, and trade without having some sort of random tax thrown at you.


The bad side is they can dictate everything else as well.


Britain is lucky to still have the Pound. We were almost forced into taking the Euro a few years ago, but the people revolted.

[Omnizoa]

Free trade. Simple as.

Pay a fee and join the club, and trade without having some sort of random tax thrown at you.

The bad side is they can dictate everything else as well.
The British Empire always was a slut for trade.









*laughs* I'm sorry.

[The Rodent]

True though :D

[The Rodent]

Here's one example of EU dictatorship:


In 1992 the Masstricht Treaty was formed, and gladly Britain opted out.
If we hadn't opted out, then on Jan 1st 1999, Britain would have been forced into taking the Euro and losing the Pound.


Greece is one of the poor bastards that didn't opt out of the MTE, and were forced into taking the Euro... and within 10 years of the Euro becoming fully integrated, they were declared bankrupt.

[Tacitus]

I'm in the interesting situation of being probably the only BritFo living 2 miles away from a land border with another EU state. There's been a common travel area between both parts of Ireland since long before there was a united Europe (and since the GFA, there's not even been any border checkpoints) and Dublin has said that the current arrangements will stand in the event of the UK leaving. Their language was pretty ambiguous, however.

If you believe Cameron, there'll be 1000s of immigrants camping in my fields after Brexit, all on their way to mainland UK. All of them with syphilis. And bad breath. And worse hair.

The Leave crowd, of course, are using their usual "Oh, don't be silly. That'll never happen, look at what happened in xyz" nonsense.

If even a tiny percentage of what the Stay lot are saying comes to pass, Dublin will flick the switch on our relaxed border, lest they become a staging post for people wanting into Britain illegally. That's gonna mean an awful lot of people in the border areas will find it considerably harder to do their jobs, what with the amount of land which straddles said border. I'm ok but I have family who have half their land in the Irish Republic and half north of the border.

To me it means my cheap diesel runs to Emyvale might become more complicated. ;)

As I said in the other thread, a plague on both their houses.

[christine]

I'm finding the whole thing really annoying now. If it wasn't for Cameron panicking about his job as PM and pandering to Farage so as not to upset their far right members , then we wouldn't be having this referendum at all.

[honeykid]

I'm finding the whole thing really annoying now. If it wasn't for Cameron panicking about his job as PM and pandering to Farage so as not to upset their far right members , then we wouldn't be having this referendum at all.

Quoted for truth.

[Tacitus]

I'd have laughed at the thought a few weeks ago, but can see Leave edging it now.

Boris as PM with Gove as Chancellor? That's legitimately scary.

Luckily, I have dual nationality with a country which won't need a Visa for a booze cruise to Calais. If Leave wins, you'll see scores of hard line Unionists over here applying for a sly Irish passport. ;)

[The Rodent]

I'm not a Tory supporter, but I wouldn't mind seeing Boris in charge tbh. He's an Eton Butt-boy like Camoron but at least knows the people's needs.


I'm hoping Corbin gets in though. He's a sly dog, but at least has a brain in his head.

[honeykid]

I'd have laughed at the thought a few weeks ago, but can see Leave edging it now.
Take a look at the front page of The Sun today. They've left it late, but they hate to back a loser. :( I don't believe the polls, but The Sun taking a side? That does point towards Leave being most likely with 'those in the know'.

Corbyn would be a ****ing disaster.

[christine]

Boris as leader? Jeez no thanks!

[Nausicaä]

Boris as PM with Gove as Chancellor? That's legitimately scary.


^ Horrendously scary. You just have to look at the list of who wants to come out of the EU, says it all really. Yikes.

[honeykid]

Yeah, but not pretend the list to stay in is any better. Blair? I'd rather go with Boris.

[Gabrielle947]

I don't really have a say in this as I am an EU national, therefore, not allowed to vote (and obviously, I'd support staying) but what I don't get is why UK is even having a referendum... Most of the people are not educated enough to make the right decision and people are so easily persuaded by propaganda on TV.

[Cobpyth]

I don't really have a say in this as I am an EU national, therefore, not allowed to vote (and obviously, I'd support staying) but what I don't get is why UK is even having a referendum... Most of the people are not educated enough to make the right decision and people are so easily persuaded by propaganda on TV.

Following that logic, people also shouldn't be able to vote for politicians.

[honeykid]

Myself and Christine have already said, but it's basically because Cameron is useless and makes policy and promises on the hoof, looking to quell any immediate threat with no thought as to their future consequences. Imagine Blair and then take away any and all political savvy and knowhow (and, probably, interest).

The first thing to remember is that the Tories have always been split about Europe. Labour have been, too, but they've never been as public about it and, with the obvious exception of Blair (and he'd have never allowed them to say anything) they've not been in power long enough for it to be anything other than a side issue.

Ukip were making inroads into the Tory vote for the last election and, so as to stem the flow of voters moving to them, the Tories promised a referendum on Europe, should they get in. The thinking at the time was that there'd be another coalition so, even if they were in power, the other party (the Liberals) would never agree to a referendum and, therefore, they could throw up their arms and say "We'd love to give you what we said we would, but they won't let us"

They didn't expect to win an outright majority and so, like most parties who don't really expect to have to carry out what they've said, they said anything which they thought would work. Then they got a majority and had to bite the bullet.

I would say though that I don't believe there is a "right" answer. Pretty much any argument that can be made for one side can be countered by the other and both have been providing so many figures and statistics to 'prove' what they say that we're drowning in them while being bored by them.

It's a confusing mess and the real fun will come after it's all over. That's when things will start to get interesting.

[honeykid]

Following that logic, people also shouldn't be able to vote for politicians.

TBF, they shouldn't. That's why I should be in charge. :yup:

[Cobpyth]

I think I'd probably vote "LEAVE" as a UK citizen. As a Belgian, I hope "REMAIN" wins, though.

[Gabrielle947]

Following that logic, people also shouldn't be able to vote for politicians.
The reason we elect politicians is that they make a decisions like that as they are (or should be) more knowledgeable. I mean, I see where you're coming from but I don't understand what is the point of this referendum and will it's outcome be final?

Another thing I just want to mention which I don't really understand is everyone's attitudes towards Cameron. As being from a different country, I see UK as an extremely strong country with increasing economy and jobs and opportunities, there is a reason why so many migrants are coming to UK after all... I've been here for more than 2 years now and the minimum wage just keeps increasing. However, for most Brits UK is just awful, NHS is awful, the royal family is awful and ofc, Cameron is the worst of them all. Sometimes I wish instead of another Big Brother, they could make reality show where they take a couple of Brits to live in poorer countries and vice versa. Like, in UK, you can actually have a normal life living off benefits only. In my country, for example, single moms with 4 kids have to work because the benefits cover half of the rent.

[CiCi]

Most people don't like Cameron because the Tories seem intent on f*cking over anyone who isn't as rich as they are. They relentlessly makes cut to anything and everything beneficial, notably the NHS, police, councils (they're the ones that I always hear on the news protesting about cuts, anyway). Meanwhile, they refuse to even slightly reduce the billions we waste spend on things like Trident that could be better used elsewhere on things we genuinely need.
Their education reforms are a joke as well, the people they put in charge refuse to listen to people far more qualified than themselves and act against them as if out of spite, and one of them (Gove) could end up as chancellor and he's just an oaf.

That's what it's like where I am, anyway. I live in a Labour stronghold where the Tories are considered the lowest of the low :lol:

[christine]

The reason we elect politicians is that they make a decisions like that as they are (or should be) more knowledgeable. I mean, I see where you're coming from but I don't understand what is the point of this referendum and will it's outcome be final?

Another thing I just want to mention which I don't really understand is everyone's attitudes towards Cameron. As being from a different country, I see UK as an extremely strong country with increasing economy and jobs and opportunities, there is a reason why so many migrants are coming to UK after all... I've been here for more than 2 years now and the minimum wage just keeps increasing. However, for most Brits UK is just awful, NHS is awful, the royal family is awful and ofc, Cameron is the worst of them all. Sometimes I wish instead of another Big Brother, they could make reality show where they take a couple of Brits to live in poorer countries and vice versa. Like, in UK, you can actually have a normal life living off benefits only. In my country, for example, single moms with 4 kids have to work because the benefits cover half of the rent.

The point of the referendum is to see if the population wants Britain to stay in the EU or not. The reason why we are having it is a piece of political hedging by Cameron as detailed above by HK. The outcome will be final I guess as you can't leave and then ask to go back in again if things don't turn out . Will the other EU countries put up with that? I doubt it.

Gabrielle, you might've been here two years but I think you have to be born here to understand what most ordinary people have against Cameron. We still suffer from a well defined class system, just look at the likes of him, Osborne, Boris Johnson, Jeremy Hunt - do you think those people really understand what life is like for the rest of us?

Most Brits don't think the NHS is awful, or the Royal family really, it'd just that we like to moan about stuff, it's the British nature. The NHS is our proudest national institution. I think if ever anyone tried to mess with it in a big way, we'd stand up and fight.

[Camo]

Great post Christine i almost completely agree with it :up:

Anyway, i've been reading up on British Politics History and i'm pretty sure i'm Aneurin Bevan incarnate. I'd never heard of him before and i agree with him on just about everything. I always felt it was weird that i respected Clement Atlee's government so much without agreeing with Attlee himself that much and Bevan is the answer to that.

So politicians i agree with:

1.Aneurin Bevan
2.Vermin Supreme/ Monster Raving Loony Party/ etc

:D

[Nausicaä]

Yeah, but not pretend the list to stay in is any better. Blair? I'd rather go with Boris.
This is a pretty cool art piece/poster, both camps have shite in them but from what I've seen the In is far better in my eyes. Some Out supporters(if this artist did his research correctly):

http://tillmans.co.uk/images/stories/misc/2016_WT_EU_Campaign_Best_Of/12_WT_EU_CAMPAIGN_BEST_OF_web_900px.jpg

Yuck, if there is a more horrible list than that in the In camp, please show me. :p

[Daniel M]

As much as the over capitalistic elements of the EU (TTIP) concern me, I'm voting to stay in. Would rather stay in and be part of it and try to reform and develop it in the future than leave and put the country potentially in the hands of Boris Johnson who'd have a free reign to do what he wants, that and the rise of far-right groups and other issues concern me and believe that leaving fuel these. I don't like the scaremongering and calling people racist for voting out though, I'm probably about 60-40 on the vote. You could argue it's racist to discriminate against immigrants based on their geographical location, just letting them in because they're close and closing opportunities for people further afield.

But yeah, all the people I respect most in politics: Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Caroline Lucas, Yanis Varoufakis (has probably wrote some of the best stuff on this) and Owen Jones are for staying in, so I'll trust them too.

[Daniel M]

Corbyn would be a ****ing disaster.

I've noticed you've posted stuff like this before. Could you expand? How would you define your political views, who would you vote for?

[Tacitus]

If Corbyn were still on the backbenches, I'd put money on him voting Leave.

This is the Socialist dilemma right now - Vote Leave because you're fundamentally opposed to the Brussels bureaucrats, which hands power to an even more dangerous group of Tories in Johnson/Gove. Leave would destabilise the Conservatives, which would suit Labour, but it's a long time until the next scheduled general election. Talk of Jezza riding to the rescue after an early GE gets forced is hopelessly naive, I think.

Vote Stay and the status quo is resumed. We'll still have a fractured Tory party but one which has a leader with a clear mandate.

[Golgot]

As much as the over capitalistic elements of the EU (TTIP) concern me, I'm voting to stay in.

TTIP is one of things condensing my Remain vote to be honest. Would you rather be in a voting block when setting up trade norms, or left with your government being sued (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Morris_v._Uruguay) for introducing a smoking ban under bi-lateral agreements? The EU is actually a better bet for not getting shat on in those deals. (And be sure that a Brexit-Britain would try and establish such deals regardless).

---

The trade and economy stuff seem fairly strongly on the Remain side to me anyway, from my layman's perspective. We can trade outside the EU already, we'd just struggle more to trade within it after an exit, and be more at the whim of its many vagueries without having a (currently substantial) voice at the table.

On EU immigration stuff... I'm biased because my job isn't threatened overly by fluid workforces (as it's heavily language-dependent). But I also don't see how leaving makes us any more likely to suddenly develop a vibrant export economy. We haven't done that even with the pound knocking 30% (http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anthony-hilton-the-romance-of-brexit-just-ignores-the-reality-of-how-business-works-a3273666.html) off the cost during the recession. It's not some miracle that's gonna make us an island of prosperity suddenly.

On the refugee quotas I see the diaspora as worthy given Eastern Europe's load and as a safety valve. And a f*ck off to ISIS who'd claim Western hate of Muslims is gospel. We take a very tight quota as it is.

Europe's strength has always been soft power. The carrots that invite peace over war. It's got a ****-ton of flaws, but I'm still far more into it than I'm out...

[christine]

If Corbyn were still on the backbenches, I'd put money on him voting Leave.

I think you're right. He's been a bit lukewarm about recommending Stay anyway

[The Rodent]

BritFos... Don't forget on Thursday when you go into your local polling station... to take a pen with you.


No way am I using that PENCIL they provide, and leaving my unsealed vote in a flimsy cardboard box with a loose lid, with a couple people I don't know.

[Golgot]

Supposedly the rationale is that ink is actually quite easy to remove en masse chemically etc.

Doesn't mean I haven't heard of rubbers though. My pencil crosses are very thorough... Each one takes about a minute ;)

[Tacitus]

Even though this referendum looks like picking whether a punch in the face or a kick in the nads is more preferable, I know a lot of people who are planning to vote now where they rarely, if ever, voted in the past.

Whatever the outcome, I hope that this will shake the apathy from the populace when it comes to political matters. In the 25 years since I turned 18, I've never not voted when I've had the opportunity.

[Golgot]

It's gonna be really intriguing to see what happens if there's a narrow Leave vote with a high turnout. (And a high turnout looks likely to me, maybe not as high as Scottish Indy, but close I'd reckon).

If it's a narrow Leave vote, say 52% with 80% of the populace voting, I could still see shenanigans happening. Cameron (or Boris more likely) would still have to get it through Parliamentary channels with a majority of only 14 MPs. Only approx 40% of Tory MPs are actually for Leave I believe, and less for other parties, so if they can claim it's not an actual mandate (IE less than 50% of the voting public potentially) could still see it struggling to cross the line...

[honeykid]

I've said before that the real fun starts after the referendum. What will happen with the leaders of the Tories? How long will Cameron wait before he goes (within a year regardless of the result is my guess), what will happen with the Labour leadership? Will the result of the referendum make a difference as to whether there's a leadership challenge or not?

Leave can promise all they want, but it's for the government to pass legislation and make the deals, not Leave.

People are talking Boris, but I think Theresa May might be the party's choice. The party needs to heal afterwards and she might be the best person for that particular job.

[The Rodent]

2 days to go... and I've made up my mind.
Media blackout on the recent goings-on in Calais... 300 refugees attacked British cars and lorries with bricks and tearing open artic curtains and climbing in, trying to get into the UK.
All the while screaming "**** the UK".
... That's just 300 of them. Imagine having 300,000. Per year, every year.
After all the research and reading I've done over the past couple months, and all the stuff going on in France for the past year, and now this as well adding to the trouble... I've made my mind up.

[Golgot]

300 refugees attacked British cars and lorries with bricks and tearing open artic curtains and climbing in, trying to get into the UK.
All the while screaming "**** the UK".

1) Source?

2) Legal migration by refugees tends to look a bit different.

3) Turning your back on a pressure cooker doesn't ensure your safety...

[The Rodent]

It appears the blackout has stopped. It's all over the place now.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1315538/huge-mob-of-300-migrants-storm-port-in-calais-in-violent-bid-to-smuggle-their-way-into-uk/


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/681614/Calais-migrants-refugees-Britain-UK-EU-referendum-Brexit-Euro-2016


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36578348


http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/524384/euro-2016-migrants-storm-calais-eurotunnel-leshuttle-ferry-shut-migrant-crisis-eu-brexit


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/british-tourist-captures-dramatic-footage-of-calais-police-clash/

[Tacitus]

So, in effect, you'll be voting for the refugee and migrant camps to be shifted to Monaghan instead, because that's what'll happen. Further from England but closer to the UK...

[Golgot]

Why do you assume a blackout? Rather than fact-checking (and a morning launch to catch traffic)? It's not like a D-notice has been issued, or that Cameron actually controls 'the media'...

And yep, desperate people doing desperate things. Ain't changing any time soon. Filtering so we only get the ones prepared to break in illegally (and assuming that all refugees are the same, despite the given that most will be ****ed up by war), is an intriguing solution tho.

[gandalf26]

Why do you assume a blackout? Rather than fact-checking (and a morning launch to catch traffic)? It's not like a D-notice has been issued, or that Cameron actually controls 'the media'...

And yep, desperate people doing desperate things. Ain't changing any time soon. Filtering so we only get the ones prepared to break in illegally (and assuming that all refugees are the same, despite the given that most will be ****ed up by war), is an intriguing solution tho.

No Cameron doesn't have any control over the media but the Establishment do, and they desperately want to remain in Europe therefore the media will try to influence people to vote "remain" and ignore things that don't make remain look good whilst trying to paint a bad picture of the Leave campaign, calling them rascist xenophobes.

I will be voting Leave tomorrow. The remain campaign have done nothing but scaremonger recently.

I'm almost concerned that whatever people vote the Establishment will rig it for a Remain win. I barely know anyone voting remain.

[christine]

I think I understand what happened there. We travelled by ferry from Calais to Dover on Saturday. While the Euros are on the security has been very tight and instead of your car being waved through at passport control, your passports are being scanned by the French Border Controls and straight after by the British Border controls. So instead of being in a fast moving live of traffic we were in a long queue waiting to get on the ferry. I guess some of the people who live in the 'Jungle' saw an opportunity.
It looks like a terrible place. You can see it on the way to the ferries, loads of tents and makeshift shelters surrounded by very high fences with razor wire on top, and patrolled by armed police with dogs - just looks like Children Of Men. I can't imagine what it must be like living there with children as well. Desperation can make people do anything, sadly.

Leaving the EU will not remove illegal immigrants.

I hate the way this referendum has turned out. The heavy emphasis on immigration by the Leave campaign has obscured any economic questions people might want to ask. The success of our economy drives everything in the country. The fact that spending on school places hasn't kept up with the birth rate, no politicians are coming up with decent ideas about the housing crisis, the NHS is not training enough nurses* or GPs, all these things and more are problems that're easy to wholesale blame on immigrants when we really need to examine the real reasons behind each economic problem.

*my own daughter in law has a place at university for next year but is having to compete with 15 other people for 8 places that have burseries. If she doesn't get one she won't be able to do the course as she won't take out a loan instead. This is the last year the Tories are funding NHS training bursaries so worsening the nurse shortage. We'll need more nurses from overseas.

[Tacitus]

No Cameron doesn't have any control over the media but the Establishment do, and they desperately want to remain in Europe therefore the media will try to influence people to vote "remain" and ignore things that don't make remain look good whilst trying to paint a bad picture of the Leave campaign, calling them rascist xenophobes.

I will be voting Leave tomorrow. The remain campaign have done nothing but scaremonger recently.

I'm almost concerned that whatever people vote the Establishment will rig it for a Remain win. I barely know anyone voting remain.

So are you saying that Leave aren't a bunch of scaremongering establishment figures?

[christine]

No Cameron doesn't have any control over the media but the Establishment do, and they desperately want to remain in Europe therefore the media will try to influence people to vote "remain" and ignore things that don't make remain look good whilst trying to paint a bad picture of the Leave campaign, calling them rascist xenophobes.

I will be voting Leave tomorrow. The remain campaign have done nothing but scaremonger recently.

I'm almost concerned that whatever people vote the Establishment will rig it for a Remain win. I barely know anyone voting remain.

Really? I'm reading the populist media as most definitely wanting out. They're ignoring worries about the economy and are almost solely concentrating on immigration and scaremongering based on that. In other words completely the opposite of how you're thinking!

[gandalf26]

I think I understand what happened there. We travelled by ferry from Calais to Dover on Saturday. While the Euros are on the security has been very tight and instead of your car being waved through at passport control, your passports are being scanned by the French Border Controls and straight after by the British Border controls. So instead of being in a fast moving live of traffic we were in a long queue waiting to get on the ferry. I guess some of the people who live in the 'Jungle' saw an opportunity.
It looks like a terrible place. You can see it on the way to the ferries, loads of tents and makeshift shelters surrounded by very high fences with razor wire on top, and patrolled by armed police with dogs - just looks like Children Of Men. I can't imagine what it must be like living there with children as well. Desperation can make people do anything, sadly.

Leaving the EU will not remove illegal immigrants.

I hate the way this referendum has turned out. The heavy emphasis on immigration by the Leave campaign has obscured any economic questions people might want to ask. The success of our economy drives everything in the country. The fact that spending on school places hasn't kept up with the birth rate, no politicians are coming up with decent ideas about the housing crisis, the NHS is not training enough nurses* or GPs, all these things and more are problems that're easy to wholesale blame on immigrants when we really need to examine the real reasons behind each economic problem.

*my own daughter in law has a place at university for next year but is having to compete with 15 other people for 8 places that have burseries. If she doesn't get one she won't be able to do the course as she won't take out a loan instead. This is the last year the Tories are funding NHS training bursaries so worsening the nurse shortage. We'll need more nurses from overseas.

We will be able to remove illegal immigrants, we will be able to set our own immigration policy and that goes for bringing skilled labour in like nurses. The border is not going to be shut down if leave wins.

[honeykid]

Illegal immigrants are illegal. Therefore we can already remove them.

We can set our own immigration policy, but there's little chance of us not accepting people to work because the jobs need to be filled. We already bring in skilled workers (such as nurses) so there's no change there, either.

I find most of the things people don't like about the EU have more to do with UK governments (both the current one and previous) not having the political will to do something/go against something than it does the EU making us do something. With the exception of the free movement of labour, H&S and trade, there's very little that the EU can actually affect, should our own Parliament not wish it to.

I'm far more annoyed that this ridiculous vote has been allowed to happen at all than I am whether we're in or out.

[CiCi]

I'm surprised to hear someone say they know no one voting for remain, the vast majority of people I know are voting remain tomorrow. Those who aren't are doing so because of immigration.

I completely agree with Christine, immigration has overshadowed everything else throughout the entire campaign. My dad is voting leave, and whenever my mother or myself tell him about any economical consequences it'll have, he just murmurs and still moans about immigrants, who undeniably contribute significantly to our services anyway. I just feel as though the important questions haven't been asked, everything just seems to revert back to immigration, and this is about a whole lot more than just that, but you just wouldn't think so.

I agree as well in regards to newspapers, the majority of them are for Brexit.

[Chypmunk]

I've not seen one person yet mention what I think is possibly the most crucial issue .... if the vote is to 'leave' will duty-free be reintroduced for travel between the UK and the EU or not?

[gandalf26]

So are you saying that Leave aren't a bunch of scaremongering establishment figures?

Yes, it's not scaremongering to say that we can't deal with 300,000+ immigrants every year it's a fact. Public services are and have been struggling for some time now. It's not scaremongering to say we don't need an unelected bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels (led by Germany) telling us what to do, we don't. It's not scaremongering to say that Europe has been a catastrophe recently, the Euro economic struggle in Greece, the economic migrant crisis (5-10% who happen to be refugee's from Syria) proliferated by the open border Schengen zone and a complete incompetent response from Europe on what to do about it, letting coutries like Romania and possibly Turkey in soon.

[christine]

I'm far more annoyed that this ridiculous vote has been allowed to happen at all than I am whether we're in or out.

Agree wholeheartedly. It feels like the whole country is being sacrificed for the sake of Tory pride

[FromBeyond]

Can't be bothered to read all this replies, heard nothing else but it for the last 6 months, I'll be glad either way when it's over.

Out and been out since day 1, nothing "ridiculous" about this vote, we want to make our own rules not faceless beuracrats in Brussels thank you very much. Still many morons want that so maybe that's what they will get. This time tomorrow we shall know.

And Cameron will still be Prime Minister.

[Tacitus]

Yes, it's not scaremongering to say that we can't deal with 300,000+ immigrants every year it's a fact. Public services are and have been struggling for some time now. It's not scaremongering to say we don't need an unelected bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels (led by Germany) telling us what to do, we don't. It's not scaremongering to say that Europe has been a catastrophe recently, the Euro economic struggle in Greece, the economic migrant crisis (5-10% who happen to be refugee's from Syria) proliferated by the open border Schengen zone and a complete incompetent response from Europe on what to do about it, letting coutries like Romania and possibly Turkey in soon.

The 'Breaking Point' poster isn't scaremongering? Gove didn't seek to distance himself from it as soon as possible? Dog whistle politics.

The 'unelected bureaucrats' line that people trot out tickles me. We should be voting for our civil servants now? These are the unelected bureaucrats who've been drafting government policy for centuries.

Christine & HK - Yep. It's basically a Tory civil war that's been brewing since the 70s. Thatcher kept the Euro sceptics under control (Gawd bless her! :p), Major had ... erm ... major trouble with them, while Cameron has been the one to finally cave in.

[Golgot]

You didn't tackle the 'establishment figures' bit I notice ;)

---

Yes, it's not scaremongering to say that we can't deal with 300,000+ immigrants every year it's a fact. Public services are and have been struggling for some time now.

Sure, the elephant in the room, and I wouldn't say you're scaremongering to feel this way. I would question whether we truly can't cope, and whether leaving the EU would truly tackle all the causes here though.

Housing isn't expanding due to monopolies ruling the roost after the recession (http://www.standard.co.uk/business/markets/anthony-hilton-how-we-ve-lost-the-plot-on-housebuilding-10088862.html), EU migrants contribute the most (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration) to the national pot, and the issues with services are down to poor political deployment of those funds etc etc. Definitely not saying it isn't a massive issue though.

The Brexit scaremongering on this point has come more from the UKIP-end end of the scale re culture clash and refugees. Surely you must acknowledge its presence?

It's not scaremongering to say we don't need an unelected bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels (led by Germany) telling us what to do, we don't.

It pretty much is. We elect MPs & MEPs. Our civil service is also unelected, how is it different? We have comparable vetoes and prominence to Germany within the EU, they're not ruling it. (It's only in the single-currency that they have clout that we don't, and that's because we're not part of it, and therefore also feel none of the internal negatives of that)

It's not scaremongering to say that Europe has been a catastrophe recently, the Euro economic struggle in Greece...

Again single-currency issue, so not really our bag. Yes, Greece couldn't devalue it's currency, we could.

...the economic migrant crisis (5-10% who happen to be refugee's from Syria) proliferated by the open border Schengen zone and a complete incompetent response from Europe on what to do about it

Yes there are a lot of wars on, and Europe hasn't closed its borders to legal migration, or closed the door on refugees. Yes there is an impact of that, agreed. You either believe in the positives that Europe still brings or you don't I guess... IE...

...letting coutries like Romania and possibly Turkey in soon.

Is soft power, and giving countries a motivation to pursue commerce and cultural exchange over conflict really such a terrible thing? Yes the eventual joining of either of those countries would entail further immigration quotas. Does the continent as whole potentially benefit from reduced conflict. Ideally yes. Do you want to abandon it, giving further impetus to those other groups that would like to leave. Your call. Would that make these issues go away. I reckon not :/

[CiCi]

I think the nation needs to crack open the champagne tomorrow once this nasty business is over and done with :lol:

[Tacitus]

As I always say during elections - Vote early, then vote often!

Once I finish my cuppa I'm heading down. I'm not as young as I used to be. :p

[CiCi]

Just popped my voting cherry! The station was bombed, Mama CiCi says she's never seen it so full before.
Also, she said our city is being monitored as one of the indicators as to how the vote will go since our results are announced around 1am and we've always been tightly neck and neck in polls, so I feel extra important today :lol:

[christine]

Just popped my voting cherry! The station was bombed, Mama CiCi says she's never seen it so full before.
Also, she said our city is being monitored as one of the indicators as to how the vote will go since our results are announced around 1am and we've always been tightly neck and neck in polls, so I feel extra important today :lol:

Nice one CiCi! Coincidentally the 1975 referendum to go into the Common Market as it was known then was my first time voting too. It had only been 6 years since the voting age was lowered to 18 from 21. I remember feeling the importance of the day when I went to the polling station with my mum. I've never missed voting since then and hope you never do too, we need young people like you to feel a sense of involvement :)

[CiCi]

All of my friends who are eligible to vote are taking the opportunity to, and all of them are voting remain :lol: there were a lot of people around the streets lobbying for Remain, so I'm feeling hopeful! And I'll never miss a vote, Christine... Except maybe the police and crime commissioner elections :p

[Tacitus]

I was the only voter in our polling station under 65, although as 4 of them were parents of old school friends I didn't feel too left out. ;)

Rural polling stations are great - I swear some of them just go there for a chat! :D

[christine]

All of my friends who are eligible to vote are taking the opportunity to, and all of them are voting remain :lol: there were a lot of people around the streets lobbying for Remain, so I'm feeling hopeful! And I'll never miss a vote, Christine... Except maybe the police and crime commissioner elections :p

good news CiCi!
I think they force us to vote in the Police and Crime Commissioner election by rolling it in with the local council ones, otherwise imagine the turnout!

We've just elected two lovely young Labour councillors in our ward, full of enthusiasm, I hope they're able to make a difference and get enough support to make them feel it's a worthwhile thing to do.

[CiCi]

good news CiCi!
I think they force us to vote in the Police and Crime Commissioner election by rolling it in with the local council ones, otherwise imagine the turnout!

We've just elected two lovely young Labour councillors in our ward, full of enthusiasm, I hope they're able to make a difference and get enough support to make them feel it's a worthwhile thing to do.
That is a very good plan! None of my relatives voted in the recent police and crime ones here because they're not combined with the local council ones. My ward has been Lib Dem for years, and they're a bunch of lovely ladies!

[DalekbusterScreen5]

If we end up leaving the EU, then I want to go live on Mars - it would be a much safer environment!

[The Rodent]

I'm going out in about 30 minutes to cast my vote for Camoron to ignore.

[honeykid]

I was the only voter in our polling station under 65, although as 4 of them were parents of old school friends I didn't feel too left out. ;)

Rural polling stations are great - I swear some of them just go there for a chat! :D

:laugh: Sounds a bit like my experience.

I swear, apart from the two people at the table checking the cards and ticking people off the list, I don't think there was a person under 70 in there and outside it was just funny as old people shuffled towards the polling station. It was like an OAP zombie movie. :D

They said they'd had a pretty decent turnout so far, so that's good to hear.

[The Rodent]

Done.


It was packed as well here. I had to stand out in the sun in a queue waiting to get in.

[Tacitus]

:laugh: Sounds a bit like my experience.

I swear, apart from the two people at the table checking the cards and ticking people off the list, I don't think there was a person under 70 in there and outside it was just funny as old people shuffled towards the polling station. It was like an OAP zombie movie. :D

They said they'd had a pretty decent turnout so far, so that's good to hear.

I now get why mine was so empty - Farmers cutting hay and silage before the storm came, which it did about an hour ago.

[ashdoc]

Britain's good is in exiting so that the wave of immigration is stopped. This i am saying even though it will hurt people planning to immigrate from India. See how nice i am:D

[Topsy]

Can't be bothered to read all this replies, heard nothing else but it for the last 6 months, I'll be glad either way when it's over.

Out and been out since day 1, nothing "ridiculous" about this vote, we want to make our own rules not faceless beuracrats in Brussels thank you very much. Still many morons want that so maybe that's what they will get. This time tomorrow we shall know.

And Cameron will still be Prime Minister.


not saying being out is right or wrong.
but you`ll never be fully out-you would still have to follow alot of the same rules,you still have to pay them a **** load of money,you still need permission for things etc.

[christine]

not saying being out is right or wrong.
but you`ll never be fully out-you would still have to follow alot of the same rules,you still have to pay them a **** load of money,you still need permission for things etc.

yes this is true. If we want to export anything to EU countries we will still have to conform to EU regs in their manufacture or production.

[Tacitus]

Thinking about it, this is the first referendum I've voted in. We were living in England when the Good Friday Agreement vote came along so didn't vote in it.

Try as I might, I couldn't convince anyone that I was a Scotch in 2014. :(

[Chypmunk]

Try as I might, I couldn't convince anyone that I was a Scotch in 2014. :(
Hmmm, outside of settling yourself entirely inside a nice glass bottle with a fancy label clearly indicating the contents as such ... or perhaps plonking yourself in a large glass with a dash of water or perhaps a couple of ice-cubes I can see why most, if not all, would struggle with the concept ;)

[Tacitus]

You're talking about Scots whiskey. You can't fool me!

[honeykid]

Britain's good is in exiting so that the wave of immigration is stopped. This i am saying even though it will hurt people planning to immigrate from India. See how nice i am:D
Leaving the EU wouldn't impact the immigration from India at all, though. Hell, it won't stop immigration coming from the EU, but it can't do anything for those outside.

[CiCi]

That irritates me as well, honey. People going on about Syrian refugees etc, when we take a small quota in comparison to other EU members as it is, in addition to the fact that we voted in a government that decided to bomb their country.

[CiCi]

I have now had 2 people knock on the door looking specifically for me, and a phone call directed to me by the Remain campaign in the last 4 hours. They really want that young vote, but it's okay, they were all delighted when I informed them how I voted :p

[CiCi]

Bloody hell, 96% of those eligible in Gibraltar voted in :lol: :eek: not too surprising, though

[matt72582]

It's the least a country can do for destroying it (taking immigrants) - whether it's the US, England, etc...

[Tacitus]

Being a political junkie prone to bouts of insomnia, I decided to give up the fight of trying to sleep.

Looks like Leave are the ones feeling confident at the moment but I'm finding the breakdown of votes fascinating. Scotland, as expected, is overwhelmingly Remain (although with a lower turnout than expected) but I didn't expect Wales to be so strongly for Leave. NI, sadly unsurprisingly for me, seems divided down sectarian lines yet again - West of the Bann is Remain and East is Leave, with a predicted 54/46 in favour of Remain.

The traditional Labour areas in England are going Leave - How much of this is more dissatisfaction with the Tory government than it is with the EU? Do people know the difference?

[Tacitus]

BBC and ITV have both called it now - Leave wins.

[Omnizoa]

BBC and ITV have both called it now - Leave wins.
Really?

Why was Scotland in favor of staying? Doesn't Scotland want independence from England too?

[ashdoc]

Really?

Why was Scotland in favor of staying? Doesn't Scotland want independence from England too?

they will say that unlike england they want to stay in EU and for staying in EU they will have to opt for independence , so that they can join separately .

[Tacitus]

In terms of Scottish independence, an overwhelming vote by Scotland to remain in the EU tallies very nicely with an English majority to leave it. In 2014 Scotland voted to remain in the UK but the 'we're different to the English'-ness of this result will probably give the nationalists some momentum.

N Ireland has also voted to remain, and Sinn Fein are already talking about border polls to, they hope, reunify Ireland.

At the moment it's all symbolism - This referendum was UK-wide (not constituency based like a normal election) so the result will be decided by the total number of votes for one side or the other - but a sign at how divided the UK is, nonetheless.

EDIT - Oh yeah, the pound has now dropped to its lowest level against the dollar since 1985.

Is it rude to point out that the family holiday accommodation has excellent rates for US citizens? ;D

[The Rodent]

OUT!


Poor Germans, they're losing their annual £24b money maker that pays for their mansions.

[Tacitus]

And so the Tory civil war begins. Cameron out before September? Osborne out before the weekend?

As a socialist, I don't have a dog in this fight. I just hope there's something left at the end of it all.

It's got to be the nastiest political campaign I've ever seen and, whatever the result, I'm glad to see the back of it. Never felt more Irish than I do right now. ;)

[The Rodent]

It's not even been a close race tbh. Some of the areas were as high as 65%.
East Lindsey and Fenland were both at 71% Leave :o


London was very high on Stay, I think it was in the 80%s margin, but everywhere else has all been on the top 50% and 60% Leave.

[Tacitus]

With 48% of the entire voting electorate voting Remain, I'd say it's a very close race, and I'd have said the same thing if the result was reversed.

[christine]

It was a really close race, and I think it's a pretty bleak day. I've just heard that Gisela Stuart is travelling to meet Gove, Johnson and Farage to see what demands they want to make of Cameron. It feels like a horrible shift in power from an elected government to having the country dictated to by outside forces. Something's not good here and we're going to pay for it.

[Tacitus]

It's not that I feel sorry for Cameron, because he ran such a horlicks of a campaign, but the alternatives? Sheesh.

[christine]

I actually feel physically sick this morning thinking about what's going to happen

[gandalf26]

Hahaha Boom! Proud of my country today!

Cameron OUT!

[gandalf26]

I actually feel physically sick this morning thinking about what's going to happen

Like what exactly?

[Tacitus]

Sinn Fein over here will need to be very careful. The dissidents will probably now see this as a tighter lock going on the Britishness of NI - Border restrictions won't come in overnight, but they'll happen.

I remember the days when country roads were blocked off with huge concrete bollards, soldiers sleeping in our hedge etc.

We need some cool heads on all sides.

[christine]

Like what exactly?

Where do I start? How about the economy ? How many years is it going to take before the markets are stable. the knock on effect into people's lives is going to be enormous. Isn't that enough?
I'm feeling sad for the future of my sons.

[christine]

How do you think life is going to be better in this country now Gandalf?

[gandalf26]

Where do I start? How about the economy ? How many years is it going to take before the markets are stable. the knock on effect into people's lives is going to be enormous. Isn't that enough?
I'm feeling sad for the future of my sons.

How do you know that long term the economy won't be stronger as a result? It will.

[gandalf26]

How do you think life is going to be better in this country now Gandalf?

We can govern ourselves.......

[The Rodent]

Just because something is different, doesn't mean it's bad, and certainly no reason to feel sick about it.


The UK has been under the dictatorship of the EU for 40+ years, but now we're out.
The fact that we're a new generation, who has never known freedom... is like an 18 year old who has just got his first flat.


It's scary, and we're heading into the unknown... but for the first little while it'll be exciting as well... then, when the reality hits we'll realise we need to wash our undies, clean the toilet and do the washing up ourselves.


We're Britain. We can do it.
And hopefully this new place in the world will bring out the real Brits, the Brits who have the upper lip, the uprightness and headstrong Will to do what is needed to succeed as an independent country.

[Tacitus]

I think Tim Farron got it right in saying that Corbyn is as much to blame as Cameron for the Remain result.

[christine]

How do you know that long term the economy won't be stronger as a result? It will.

You don't know that either tho.
It may come to pass but I tell you there will be decades needed to do that

[Gatsby]

I feel sorry for you guys. Immigrant problems are making everyone lose their cool.

[christine]

I think Tim Farron got it right in saying that Corbyn is as much to blame as Cameron for the Remain result.

Tatty, I dunno if it's just even Corbyn, it's the Labour Party and the elitist southern slant of them. They neglected their heartland and now they're paying for it. I'm having difficulty seeing them in power at all now

[Chypmunk]

Have to say I'm surprised at the result, I thought Remain would win narrowly, but my immediate overriding feeling is one of relief that what has imo been a truly reprehensible campaign by both sides is finally over and done with.

[gandalf26]

I went to bed resigned that remain would win only to switch on the news to a solid Leave win.

[christine]

Hmm ICameron has resigned .
So we could end up with a Boris Johnson / Trump special relationship

http://b247cdn.co.uk/17449/hero/web/donald-trump-boris-johnson-stokes-croft-bristol-1464067831.jpg

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I hope the morons who voted to leave are ashamed of themselves. The pound has already dropped and there's talk of needing a visa to travel to an EU country. What a mess. Wish I could afford to move to Austria - a much better country who most importantly are still a part of the EU.

[The Rodent]

I've seen a lot of statuses on Facebook about the "sea of silver hair" at the Polling Stations, making out it's the old timers, the old racists, the old school British Citizens who have given the young something they don't want.




Funny that... seeing as that generation are the ones who lived without the EU, who then voted the EU in in 1975... have then lived with the EU for 40 years, and then voted out.
Says a lot about the dictators when one generation lives without, votes in, then votes out at the first chance they get.

[christine]

I don't think that's particularly fair Rodent. Besides Facebook being a horrible thing (the racism on there is vile) , the older generation that voted in 1975 actually voted to be in the Common Market not the EU. The fact that it has grown into something they don't like, well it's up to them to leave or stay and reform from the inside.

[christine]

and also we live in a democracy, but nearly half of the voters wanted to stay , that's also a lot of people

[Tacitus]

Tatty, I dunno if it's just even Corbyn, it's the Labour Party and the elitist southern slant of them. They neglected their heartland and now they're paying for it. I'm having difficulty seeing them in power at all now

Labour and their heartland are reaping what they've sown with Corbyn. Catapulting an ineffectual career backbencher who voted against his party as often as he voted for them into power was suicidal. The country's been drifting to the right for a while and now it's had a lurch.

[gandalf26]

I hope the morons who voted to leave are ashamed of themselves. The pound has already dropped and there's talk of needing a visa to travel to an EU country. What a mess. Wish I could afford to move to Austria - a much better country who most importantly are still a part of the EU.

Oh noooes the pound had dropped......how do you know 10 years from now we will not be much stronger economically because of our brave decision. I doubt we will need visa's but so what if we do? So you may have to fill in a touch of paperwork? Do you think that Spain and every tourist hotspot in Europe are not going to want Brits to come and give the big tourist boost every year?

Proud to be one of the 17,000,000 "morons".

[Tacitus]

I know you're all going to, but I'm just going to remind everyone to keep it civil. Play the ball, not the man etc etc. :)

[gandalf26]

I didn't call anyone a moron :) Although those who voted remain may be a touch intellectually challenged;)

[The Rodent]

Politics... meant to be used to make things better... but the cause of fights amongst non-politicians since year dot.

[banality]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8f/1e/ea/8f1eea9e588f240670d98daaba154f70.jpg

[CosmicRunaway]

Does anyone watch Last Week Tonight? I imagine John Oliver is going to be disappointed after he tried to convince everyone that staying in was the better option economically. For anyone who doesn't but is curious to see what I'm referring to, HBO has a lot of clips on Youtube, though I'm not sure if they're region locked. If they're available to watch here, they should be available almost anywhere else though. Here is the entire Brexit segment from Sunday's show (even if you don't agree with him, it's worth staying or skipping to the end for the song):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

If you are offended by swearing maybe do not watch the clip, and definitely don't listen to that kid's song at the end haha.

[Tacitus]

I'm hanging on to watch the Johnson presser, than I'm switching the TV off and going to clear my head.

Interesting times...

[CiCi]

79% of people in my age demographic voted to stay in, and it's our future it'll affect the most. I'm heartbroken and petrified as to my future prospects. All of a sudden, emigrating to Canada like my relatives did in the 50s seems more likely :lol:
Scotland will now go independent as well, Spain will gain joint sovereignty of Gibraltar. It's the end of Great Britain and the UK. :(

[TheUsualSuspect]

79% of people in my age demographic voted to stay in, and it's our future it'll affect the most. I'm heartbroken and petrified as to my future prospects. All of a sudden, emigrating to Canada like my relatives did in the 50s seems more likely :lol:
Scotland will now go independent as well, Spain will gain joint sovereignty of Gibraltar. It's the end of Great Britain and the UK. :(

I've got two extra rooms!!!!!


Well....one now.

[christine]

very interesting and more than a little worrying.
Coming out of the EU aside, I'm more worried now by Cameron resigning. I'm disappointed he's done that (and I never thought I'd see the day I 'd ever write that!) . We needed some stability, and now what we have is a change of Prime Minister mid term which is always hugely unsettling and is more now given that the Leave campaign politicians are on a roll. Who we will end up with as PM out of that lot is the stuff of nightmares for me.
If it turns out that there's an early election, us on the left of politics have to face up that we ain't going anywhere with Corbyn. Much as the youngsters love him for his honesty and his intellectual analysis, I'm afraid that doesn't win votes outside of the intelligensia. Youngsters won't remember Michael Foot who was the same way inclined and who got torn to pieces in the 1983 election. These people are really nice, good guys but they don't make leaders.

[Omnizoa]

Does anyone watch Last Week Tonight? I imagine John Oliver is going to be disappointed after he tried to convince everyone that staying in was the better option economically.
I saw that. Personally, I got a whiff of bias from it.

I won't deny the economic damage it could cause, but economies can heal and self-sufficiency is a critical element of independence, especially if those you depend on have the game rigged against you.

[christine]

79% of people in my age demographic voted to stay in, and it's our future it'll affect the most. I'm heartbroken and petrified as to my future prospects. All of a sudden, emigrating to Canada like my relatives did in the 50s seems more likely :lol:
Scotland will now go independent as well, Spain will gain joint sovereignty of Gibraltar. It's the end of Great Britain and the UK. :(

aww I know, it is really upsetting love, but just hang in there , we'll have other fights to fight. We need you and your friends xxx

[Omnizoa]

Why did this provoke resignations though?

[CiCi]

I've got two extra rooms!!!!!


Well....one now.
Why thank you! But I don't want to be kept awake all night by Mini Suspect :p

[matt72582]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/brexit-referendum-is-non-binding-uk-parliament-not-voter-has-final-say/5532485

What about this? ^

[christine]

Omni - because the PM was so strongly for staying in the EU and doing further negotiations, now I suppose he feels like he's not representing the majority of the population .

[Omnizoa]

It's the end of Great Britain and the UK
Was it really so "great" and "united" if Scotland never wanted to be there in the first place?

That's like getting nostalgic over a "happy family photo" even though when it was taken the baby wouldn't sit still, the teenager couldn't be bothered, and Charles doesn't even like your step-mother.

[christine]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/brexit-referendum-is-non-binding-uk-parliament-not-voter-has-final-say/5532485

What about this? ^

very unlikely to happen Matt given the mood here

[matt72582]

very unlikely to happen Matt given the mood here

I'm left of center - can you tell me the major reasons you don't like this move, but also, is there anything positive from the exit?

[christine]

and if the Leave campaign think they're going to be saving money, well...

Can we have our subsidies back now please? (http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2016-06-24/cornwall-pleas-for-reassurance-it-will-not-be-worse-off-following-brexit-vote/)

[The Rodent]

Did you see his wife's face when he was giving his speech? She looked soooo sheepish.


What he's done, is got into power with only 36% of the votes, promised the referendum... then sat there twiddling his thumbs, counting his cash, thinking "I'm a winner, I'm a winner"... and the public have turned on him.
The public have told him that they think he's full of sh*t, and have proven they have no respect for him or his wife (who spends £60k of taxpayers money on personal image consultants).


The guy is embarrassed. Simple.

[CiCi]

I still never know what possessed the UK into voting for a Tory majority. Baffles me even now :lol:

And to Omni, I live relatively close to the border, and I have a lot of family in Scotland. Getting to see them will be a giant pain in the arse in a few years. And they did want to be a part of the UK, 55% of them voted to remain a part of it.

[The Rodent]

True, the Scots has their own referendum and decided to stay.


If they truly want to leave, they should let the English take the vote lol!

[christine]

I'm left of center - can you tell me the major reasons you don't like this move, but also, is there anything positive from the exit?

ok so, as far as I can see the only person who could've led on not leaving the EU after the referendum has come down on the side of leaving with any authority, was David Cameron, and he's resigned. So that means he saw it as a no go too. We don't have many referendums in this country not like some others, so I seriously doubt any politician would go against 'the people'.
Positive things from the exit? Let someone who can see positive things answer that. I'm struggling to think of anything I can only see a gaping void at the moment with Nigel Farage's chirpy chappy gob lurking at the bottom.

[CiCi]

Christine - perhaps UKIP will begin to fade away, they were a one policy party and they achieved what they set out to do.

[The Rodent]

A huge positive from the exit... between £14b and £24b annually, not going directly into the pockets of the EU suits.

[Tacitus]

Positive things from the exit?

The sun still rose this morning. I know, I was bloody well there to see it. ;)

Re: UKIP?

They've no reason to exist now, right? Right?

The next Tory leader will be wise to stay well away from him.

[christine]

Did you see his wife's face when he was giving his speech? She looked soooo sheepish.


What he's done, is got into power with only 36% of the votes, promised the referendum... then sat there twiddling his thumbs, counting his cash, thinking "I'm a winner, I'm a winner"... and the public have turned on him.
The public have told him that they think he's full of sh*t, and have proven they have no respect for him or his wife (who spends £60k of taxpayers money on personal image consultants).


The guy is embarrassed. Simple.

To be fair he looked upset to me, and his wife looked deeply concerned, like a wife would look if she thought her husband was going to cry in public. God knows I'm no Cameron supporter, but that's how it looked to me. The fact that he got into power on that percentage of votes is the result of our electoral system.
Also I don't think the Brexit vote is a personal vote against Cameron. Did you vote to leave as a vote against Cameron personally or a vote for what was right for the country? Cameron was retiring at the next election anyway, but the Brexit vote is going to affect this country for decades

[Omnizoa]

Omni - because the PM was so strongly for staying in the EU and doing further negotiations, now I suppose he feels like he's not representing the majority of the population .
I've literally never heard a single positive thing ever said about Cameron. Is he only NOW suddenly self-aware, because I thought people hated him?

[The Rodent]

People voted him in because of the promises he made... then he turned the country to sh*t by doing the exact opposite, then went on about austerity, cut money from the poor and sick, and the elderly... then gave himself and all his Eton pals a payrise, while claiming expenses of £60k a year to give to his wife's dress maker.


That's why people hate him.


I didn't say I voted out btw. I've said I was thinking about it, but never said I did or not.
I did months of research and made a decision on what was the lesser of two evils. What I actually voted, is my business... but the outcome, I will stand by it, as the people have spoken. I stand by democracy.

[banality]

How long until Frexit?

[The Rodent]

There's a lot of other countries on about leaving now lol!
Soon it'll just be the Brussels and Germany Union.


Brermany?
Germsels?

[christine]

I've literally never heard a single positive thing ever said about Cameron. Is he only NOW suddenly self-aware, because I thought people hated him?

the populace always criticise their leaders don't they? I don't like him but I don't despise him as much as I did Thatcher. Maybe he was just not man enough to take on such a massive job as taking a country out of the EU - it's going to be administrative hell.
Or maybe he just couldn't stand to be in the same room as a smirking Farage or facing Boris Johnson jollying him along. That's enough to make anyone resign.

[CiCi]

There's a lot of other countries on about leaving now lol!
Soon it'll just be the Brussels and Germany Union.


Brermany?
Germsels?
Yeah, this is another positive. Denmark, Italy, and the Netherlands all want referendums now, and of they did all leave, maybe Scotland would too? Who knows.

[banality]

Turkey and Ukraine will join instead.

[The Rodent]

I forgot to say about Camoron as well, that he lied about off-shore accounts in tax havens.
He said he didn't have any, he swore on it. Then, 12 hours later, it was uncovered that he does have tax free accounts in far away countries. Some of that cash paid toward his campaign as well.

[The Rodent]

Camoron is also guilty of treason.


He spoke to Her Majesty the Queen about Scotland's referendum... and then spilt all the details about the conversation to the Mayor of New York.
Nobody, absolutely nobody, by law, is allowed to reveal details of any private conversation between the Monarch of the UK and any outsider.
He had to write a letter of apology to Lizzy for it, but if any other Joe Blow did that, they'd be jailed.

[banality]

He had to go.

Yanukovych for PM.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cls5bZWWQAAvdp8.jpg:large

[Chypmunk]

Have to love my wife's employers - she's employed on a Sterling basis but paid in Euros and they very nicely paid her wages yesterday so as to not have the vote affect the exchange rate they used :) Hopefully a month is long enough for the knee-jerk panic reaction to have at least somewhat dissipated by the time payday comes around again!

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Oh noooes the pound had dropped......how do you know 10 years from now we will not be much stronger economically because of our brave decision.
If you looked into the facts, you would know we can only be worse off outside the EU. It's not a brave decision, just a foolish one. The EU was the reason why we were the fifth richest country in the world; without them, we are tiny. The financial stability the EU offered has gone and it's all thanks to people like yourself who voted to leave.

I doubt we will need visa's but so what if we do?
Who wants to have something else above passports to worry about when going on holiday? Something else that you need to have before you travel abroad?

I certainly don't.

Proud to be one of the 17,000,000 "morons".
Proud to be sending the country into hell?

How is that something to be proud of?

I've yet to hear any kind of plan of what we're going to do once we have left the EU. Nobody seems to have a clue; it has just been a referendum for the sake of having a referendum and now it has resulted in the stupidest, most idiotic decision the world has ever seen. The worst thing of all this is it's going to take two years for us to leave anyway and in that time we have no say in EU laws but still have to abide by them; this means they can punish us by passing extremely harsh laws on our country.

[Yoda]

If you actually think the EU is going to punish you with extremely harsh laws for wanting out, that kinda seems like a good argument for wanting out in the first place.

[TheUsualSuspect]

The pound has fallen so far today that the UK is no longer the world's 5th largest economy. France has overtaken it.

[CiCi]

The pound has fallen so far today that the UK is no longer the world's 5th largest economy. France has overtaken it.
17 million people never gave a ***** about the economy and they probably won't now :lol:

[Golgot]

and if the Leave campaign think they're going to be saving money, well...

Can we have our subsidies back now please? (http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2016-06-24/cornwall-pleas-for-reassurance-it-will-not-be-worse-off-following-brexit-vote/)

Ah Cornwall. Always the sensible face of angry nationalism :/

http://i.imgur.com/epsPQgD.png

[The Rodent]

If you actually think the EU is going to punish you with extremely harsh laws for wanting out, that kinda seems like a good argument for wanting out in the first place.



Kinda odd how the EU is sounding more and more like a Hitler mentality.
"Join us, or pay. Stay with us, or pay"

[Golgot]

There's a lot of other countries on about leaving now lol!
Soon it'll just be the Brussels and Germany Union.


Brermany?
Germsels?

It'll be less amusing when Russia starts nosing around the power vacuum. But sure, take glee in one of the key organisations that's helped maintain peace across a traditionally fractious continent possibly fracturing. Bravo.

[Golgot]

Kinda odd how the EU is sounding more and more like a Hitler mentality.
"Join us, or pay. Stay with us, or pay"

Yeah, that's, like entirely how Hitler operated.

[Omnizoa]

If you actually think the EU is going to punish you with extremely harsh laws for wanting out, that kinda seems like a good argument for wanting out in the first place.
My thoughts too.

I see a lot of ****-slinging over this and yet if it's bad as some say the "Leavers" will see the consequences soon enough.

As to whether there's a "plan" to resolve the economy, I question any general plan is even capable of stabilizing something as complicated as an economy. Economies are built on trade and trade is an endless process of buying low and selling high. It'll work itself out one way or another, it's merely a question of how long and whether the shift is better or worse in the long term.

[CiCi]

It'll be decades, our economy is shrinking rapidly with every minute and consequently when we try to set up deals with bigger economies, they will be able to dictate terms to us, instead of negotiate that would have occurred with access to the EU, a substantially bigger economy.

[Yoda]

Why will they be able to "dictate" terms, and why hasn't this same thing happened to all previous nations that were not part of some giant confederation of nations? I don't see any evidence elsewhere in the world for the idea that being independent puts you at some ridiculous trade disadvantage.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Why will they be able to "dictate" terms, and why hasn't this same thing happened to all previous nations that were not part of some giant confederation of nations? I don't see any evidence elsewhere in the world for the idea that being independent puts you at some ridiculous trade disadvantage.

Because we're only a small country to start with. We don't have the size of, say, Australia or even any of the countries in the EU.

[The Rodent]

Because we're only a small country to start with. We don't have the size of, say, Australia or even any of the countries in the EU.

That didn't stop us from owning their asses all the way up to the early 1900s.

[Yoda]

Because we're only a small country to start with. We don't have the size of, say, Australia or even any of the countries in the EU.
That's just restating the initial claim. I'm asking why you think being smaller leads to this imbalance, and where else I can find evidence of this actually happening. Because from where I'm sitting, this sounds awfully close to an economic fallacy, and I'm getting the distinct impression that people are accepting it (and repeating it) uncritically.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

That's just restating the initial claim. I'm asking why you think being smaller leads to this imbalance, and where else I can find evidence of this actually happening. Because from where I'm sitting, this sounds awfully close to an economic fallacy, and I'm getting the distinct impression that people are accepting it (and repeating it) uncritically.

Less land, smaller population, smaller army (especially compared to the joint forces of the EU) etc will all make it easier for us to be dictated terms to.

[matt72582]

At least England has health care for all, benefits for those who can't find work -- you guys will be fine.. I'm afraid for the US.

Scotland still has free college too.

[Yoda]

Less land, smaller population, smaller army (especially compared to the joint forces of the EU) etc will all make it easier for us to be dictated terms to.
Those are all just ways of restating the fact that they're smaller. What about this allows them to be "dictated" to, and where else do we see it happening? There are all sorts of independent countries, and nearly all of them are smaller than the EU. Why isn't the EU running roughshod over all of them?

I think there are some pretty fundamental misconceptions about trade underpinning these arguments.

[CiCi]

Because without the input of 26 other economies, of course we'll be less influential. On top of that, our economy is currently in freefall, and it's expected to only get worse.

EDIT: Norway and Switzerland weren't punished because they never joined the EU and then left, we're the first to do so. (As far as I'm aware) but we had economic stability to trade with the rest of the world as a part of the EU, something we no longer have.

[Omnizoa]

Less land, smaller population, smaller army (especially compared to the joint forces of the EU) etc will all make it easier for us to be dictated terms to.
I'm just gonna take a stab in the dark and say that literally has nothing to do with trade.

Unless you think the world is actually playing a giant game of Civilization, I don't think Ghandi has the temerity to talk down your trade offers on the merits of military superiority.

[Yoda]

Because without the input of 26 other economies, of course we'll be less influential.
I can't really unpack what this even means. Less influential in what way, and what practical effect on trade will this lack of "influence" have?

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I can't really unpack what this even means. Less influential in what way, and what practical effect on trade will this lack of "influence" have?

We don't have their backing for negotiations anymore. This becomes even more serious when you start to look at things like wars: once we're out of the EU in two years, we won't have their armies to assist us in any battles. We'll be expected to fight them on our own and that'll mean we'll have less soldiers and potentially less control over our land.

The rest of Europe won't help us when we're in trouble anymore. They won't give a damn about us. All those years building bridges and what will it have gained us in the end? Nothing because we decided to be arrogant and claim we can deal with things on our own (we can't).

[christine]

17 million people never gave a ***** about the economy and they probably won't now :lol:

no cos they're too busy blaming everything on immigration! :p

[Omnizoa]

we can deal with things on our own (we can't).
WELP, may as well give up then. Time to roll over and die.

[CiCi]

Right, the UK is regarded as one of the best places to start business in Europe, yet this will undermine growth and innovation because trade with Europe will now be uncertain (no Brexit campaigner had any comprehensive plan on what to do in this scenario), and almost certainly difficult because they're going to make an example of us (I.e Spain threatening to close the Gibraltan border) to prevent other member states from following suit. The UK will no longer have access to the single market, and countries like Norway pay more to access this market than we did to be just be a part of the eu, by a significant amount as well.
This, added to the fact that the pound is plummeting, isn't really good for us at all, our economy is a lot worse off just 12 hours after the vote than it was a few days ago as part of the EU.

Therefore, we'll be less influential because how can a smaller economy dictate terms to bigger ones, and we were able to as part of the EU where we had stability.

That, and I trust the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Greens, the Lib Dems, abd Labour over some of the Tory party and UKIP who are only concerned with immigrants on such a matter anyway.

[Omnizoa]

they're going to make an example of us
They sound like such nice fellas, I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave.

[Golgot]

@Dalek Nah, we're still in Nato D, less worries there. There will be love lost though of course.

@Yods, the trade deals angle seems an interesting one where we may struggle more. I'd imagine we'd get more a favourable deal with the US through the TTIP deal rather than in a stand-alone bi-lateral.

I'm not clear on any other complications of inter-European trade once we're out. Doubtless there will be differences, but given we're already outside Schengen (open borders etc) & the single currency not sure what else would alter.

[CiCi]

they're going to make an example of us
They sound like such nice fellas, I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave.
It's the lesser of two evils by a considerable degree (to remain)

[gandalf26]

We don't have their backing for negotiations anymore. This becomes even more serious when you start to look at things like wars: once we're out of the EU in two years, we won't have their armies to assist us in any battles. We'll be expected to fight them on our own and that'll mean we'll have less soldiers and potentially less control over our land.

The rest of Europe won't help us when we're in trouble anymore. They won't give a damn about us. All those years building bridges and what will it have gained us in the end? Nothing because we decided to be arrogant and claim we can deal with things on our own (we can't).

"armies to assist us in any battles"

Who are we going to be fighting? We are still a member of Nato and allied with the US who has several bases in the UK.

There wont be any big wars ever again in the nuclear age. Modern wars are fought in the air now anyways with drones and high tech aircraft assisting small groups of special forces.

If you actually think we will end up in a big war, perhaps with a European neighbour then you are borderline delusional.

[CiCi]

That is true, Gandalf, it is very unlikely. But all of our major allies, as well as the heads of MI5 and MI6 insisted that we would nevertheless be safer as a member of the EU.

[gandalf26]

Right, the UK is regarded as one of the best places to start business in Europe, yet this will undermine growth and innovation because trade with Europe will now be uncertain (no Brexit campaigner had any comprehensive plan on what to do in this scenario), and almost certainly difficult because they're going to make an example of us (I.e Spain threatening to close the Gibraltan border) to prevent other member states from following suit. The UK will no longer have access to the single market, and countries like Norway pay more to access this market than we did to be just be a part of the eu, by a significant amount as well.
This, added to the fact that the pound is plummeting, isn't really good for us at all, our economy is a lot worse off just 12 hours after the vote than it was a few days ago as part of the EU.

Therefore, we'll be less influential because how can a smaller economy dictate terms to bigger ones, and we were able to as part of the EU where we had stability.

That, and I trust the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Greens, the Lib Dems, abd Labour over some of the Tory party and UKIP who are only concerned with immigrants on such a matter anyway.
Economically we have already started to bounce back. The FTSE fell 8% but now it has only fallen 2.5%.

The pound fell 10% but now its only 8%.

Some of the banks fell 30% but its already only 20%.

The head of the powerful BDI has said that Britain will not likely be punished for leaving. So are some of the big Euro car manufacturers going to be told sorry you can't sell in your no.1 market (the UK) to punish them for leaving Europe, don't think so, not one bit.

[CiCi]

Oh wow, I never knew they were recovering so quick :eek:

[gandalf26]

That is true, Gandalf, it is very unlikely. But all of our major allies, as well as the heads of MI5 and MI6 insisted that we would nevertheless be safer as a member of the EU.

Our Intelligence is closely linked with "5 eyes" that is Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand, none of whom reside in Europe.

Anyways similar to what Yoda has been saying are the Intelligence services of Europe going to say;

"we re not warning you about this terrorist attack to punish you for Europe" or vice versa.

Don't ****ing think so.

[gandalf26]

Oh wow, I never knew they were recovering so quick :eek:

I just scanned quickly over BBC business news.:)

[Yoda]

We don't have their backing for negotiations anymore.
Again, meaning what? I keep asking for specifics and I just get more generalities. You say we won't be able to negotiate as well, I say why? You say because of our size. I say why will the size effect trade? You say it's because we can't negotiate as well. And round and round we go.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Czechout. Finish. Latervia. Byegium.

[gandalf26]

Some of the people in this thread have been taking a bit literally some of the scaremongering from Cameron and co.

[ashdoc]

the populace always criticise their leaders don't they? I don't like him but I don't despise him as much as I did Thatcher. Maybe he was just not man enough to take on such a massive job as taking a country out of the EU - it's going to be administrative hell.
Or maybe he just couldn't stand to be in the same room as a smirking Farage or facing Boris Johnson jollying him along. That's enough to make anyone resign.

Tell us why brexit is such a catastrophe for you? And what is the problem with Thatcher? She won the Falklands war didn't she ?

[Yoda]

Therefore, we'll be less influential because how can a smaller economy dictate terms to bigger ones, and we were able to as part of the EU where we had stability.
People keep saying this like it's self-evident, and I keep asking them how it actually works. Does anyone have an objection to this based on a specific argument about trade, or is it all vague assertions about how smaller states obviously are at some nebulous disadvantage, even if nobody can explain how or why?

That, and I trust the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Greens, the Lib Dems, abd Labour over some of the Tory party and UKIP who are only concerned with immigrants on such a matter anyway.
This, I think, is what's really going on. I think very few people listing their economic concerns really understand the mechanics of trade , but people they've decided to trust say it's bad, so they repeat the general arguments.

[Omnizoa]

It's the lesser of two evils by a considerable degree (to remain)
I hesitate to call independence an "evil". Graduates moving out of the house don't frequently do so without some financial baggage either.

[Yoda]

I'm kinda waiting for a specific "this is why it's bad" argument, as opposed to the "I'm not sure what happens next, and I've decided that's inherently bad."

[Omnizoa]

or is it all vague assertions about how smaller states obviously are at some nebulous disadvantage,
Note to self: "Incorporate word 'nebulous' into dialog more often."

[matt72582]

Tell us why brexit is such a catastrophe for you? And what is the problem with Thatcher? She won the Falklands war didn't she ?

Thatcher was a fascist...

[The Rodent]

No, Soldiers won the Falklands War... all Thatcher did was remove free milk from schools and shut coal mines, putting almost half of the UK out of work.

[Golgot]

I'm kinda waiting for a specific "this is why it's bad" argument, as opposed to the "I'm not sure what happens next, and I've decided that's inherently bad."

Although the trade angle isn't my biggest beef with this decision, and certainly not something I'm well versed in, it does seem to me that we're more open to a Phillip Morris sues Uruguay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Morris_v._Uruguay) style scenario when operating solo. We had a lot of shared values with EU states that meant we probably could have worked in greater protections against practices such as this.

That said we may now be able to put in more tailored criteria, such as protections against US medicare providers suing us for not being allowed access to the NHS market etc.

(Not that the current government would have a problem with privatising it. Especially the even-further-right lot who are now waltzing into the power seat).

[CiCi]

Yoda, I have good reason to trust those parties over the Tories and UKIP.

Tories notoriously look out only for the rich; I'm not rich. UKIP are only bothered about immigrants; I'm not. I don't claim to know everything about trade, but since this is the only thing I've been hearing about for the whole year, in addition to trying to research some of it myself, I somewhat/vaguely know what I'm talking about, fact is anyway, the vast majority of people who voted won't know the intricacies of every type of trading deal, I just had to vote based on what I could grasp, and I'll admit some things were too complex for me to handle. But, the next however many years will definitely be very uncertain for the UK, yes, it probably will work out in the end, but there's a chance it won't, and I believe the problems many people complain about are a result of the government anyway, not the EU.
I'll be enough debt as it is when I leave university, so why would I want to risk setting the UK back and making my life hell?

But I didn't just vote based on trade, no one did. Immigrants contribute significantly to our services, if you bump into a Eastern European, they're more likely to be treating you than waiting to receive treatment. The EU provide a lot of money to our scientists, this funding will be cut. Personally, I loved the idea that I could move to somewhere like France and Germany and choose to live and work there if I desired to, because immigration works both ways, and I think a lot of people forgot that. People moan about how much we pay, when it could be used for other services, I thought cutting trident spending would resolve a lot of those issues, not leaving the EU. This didn't fall down to just trading, which, to me, was fine the way it was.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

"armies to assist us in any battles"

Who are we going to be fighting?

Who knows? There was the Afghanistan war not that long ago and then there was Iraq. We could easily end up in a war with Russia and then there's the ongoing battle with terrorism.

Do you think France and other EU countries are going to care anymore if we have a serious terrorist problem?

[DalekbusterScreen5]

The head of the powerful BDI has said that Britain will not likely be punished for leaving. .

I will be surprised if we're not punished. The EU will hate us now for deciding to leave.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

You say we won't be able to negotiate as well, I say why? .

Because leaving the EU means we have less countries willing to help us with negotiations. Also less countries that will be willing to negotiate with us. There is no way France are going to negotiate trade with us now and I doubt Germany, Italy or Spain will either.

[CiCi]

I will be surprised if we're not punished. The EU will hate us now for deciding to leave.
Especially considering we could start a domino effect, other countries now want referendums it seems.
Also, there is no way Gibraltar is escaping this unscathed, Spain have already threatened to close the border, and I'd be surprised if they didn't.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Tell us why brexit is such a catastrophe for you? And what is the problem with Thatcher? She won the Falklands war didn't she ?

She had a significant negative impact on industries in Yorkshire.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I'm kinda waiting for a specific "this is why it's bad" argument, as opposed to the "I'm not sure what happens next, and I've decided that's inherently bad."

And I'm waiting for a 'What are we actually going to do once we leave the EU?' answer that nobody knows because nobody has thought it through properly, just gone through all guns blazing instead.

[CiCi]

And I'm waiting for a 'What are we actually going to do once we leave the EU?' answer that nobody knows because nobody has thought it through properly, just gone through all guns blazing instead.
Yeah, I don't see why it's such a crime to want to keep the status quo than risk it all without a definite outcome.