The UK Voting Referendum

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Especially considering we could start a domino effect, other countries now want referendums it seems..

Exactly.

[gandalf26]

Because leaving the EU means we have less countries willing to help us with negotiations. Also less countries that will be willing to negotiate with us. There is no way France are going to negotiate trade with us now and I doubt Germany, Italy or Spain will either.

Some polls today are suggesting that France could vote 61% out in a similar referendum. This could spark the beginning of the end for the European Union. Could be trading with everyone again on equal terms very soon, new leaders to replace all the pro Europe clowns currently in office.

[Yoda]

Because leaving the EU means we have less countries willing to help us with negotiations.
Help how? We're still on the same merry go round, where I ask you why something will happen, and you just say that it will happen using slightly different words. I asked you why negotiations will be worse, so obviously it doesn't explain anything to just add the words "help us."

Also less countries that will be willing to negotiate with us. There is no way France are going to negotiate trade with us now and I doubt Germany, Italy or Spain will either.
Wait...you think the rest of Europe is going to refuse all trade with Britain? Seriously?

[CosmicRunaway]

Who knows? There was the Afghanistan war not that long ago and then there was Iraq. We could easily end up in a war with Russia and then there's the ongoing battle with terrorism.
My money is on Russia.

What do people think about articles like this one (http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6) stating that the government is not bound by the Brexit vote and that it is well within its rights to ignore the will of the people and stay in the EU? Is that likely to happen?

[CiCi]

No Yoda, they probably won't, that's not the point. We don't know for definite whether they will or not, hence people voted Remain to keep things as they are.

[Omnizoa]

I don't see why it's such a crime to want to keep the status quo than risk it all without a definite outcome.
Would you insist on someone staying in an abusive relationship because of money?

[CiCi]

Would you insist on someone staying in an abusive relationship because of money?

Being in the EU isn't abusive towards us, the government has caused far more of our problems than the EU has.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Some polls today are suggesting that France could vote 61% out in a similar referendum. This could spark the beginning of the end for the European Union. Could be trading with everyone again on equal terms very soon, new leaders to replace all the pro Europe clowns currently in office.

I doubt it. Regardless of how France vote in their referendum, they will hate us for being the first to vote out. Same with the other countries. They don't like us as it is. This is another reason for them to hate us.

[christine]

I've read a lot from various serious sources about what will happen to trade with the EU after Brexit, and the conclusion I've come to is that it's all speculation. Until the terms of exit are negotiated no one knows whether we might still retain our free trade deal or have some protectionist barriers put up against us. At present we don't know, the politicians don't know and neither do the experts, and that's the answer! although I have been reading that industry chiefs in Germany and France are not particularly pro trade barriers. Besides the US, Germany is our largest trading partner so I don't think they'll be rushing to hurt that trade given the value to their economy and jobs.

I am concerned about relocation of companies into the EU from the UK tho, but I wonder whether our less regulated labour laws still attract. Also our big finance companies were making unhappy grumblings about Brexit, I hope nothing happens there.

[Topsy]

woke a up to a shock today to say the least!

[gandalf26]

Who knows? There was the Afghanistan war not that long ago and then there was Iraq. We could easily end up in a war with Russia and then there's the ongoing battle with terrorism.

Do you think France and other EU countries are going to care anymore if we have a serious terrorist problem?

Afghanistan was not much of a war, rather an all round bloody mess and waste of lives like Iraq.

If we end up In a war with Russia we wont be alone, I guarantee you that. Russia doesn't want a big war with anyone, its all propaganda. They aren't and never will be that big a threat in terms of military arms, of course they have loads of nukes though.

Do you think leadership in France and EU are THAT petty that there wont be co-operation against the terror threat. REALLY?

Ludicrous

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Help how?
By backing us when we try to engage trade with other countries. They will not want to help us now.
Wait...you think the rest of Europe is going to refuse all trade with Britain?
It's a near certainty that they will. By voting out of the EU, we have inevitably made our relations with European countries worse. Expect us to always come last on every Eurovision broadcast and have to pay extortionate prices for holidays in their countries.

[Golgot]

What do people think about articles like this one (http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6) stating that the government is not bound by the Brexit vote and that it is well within its rights to ignore the will of the people and stay in the EU? Is that likely to happen?

Yep absolutely true, but slim odds now given the high turnout. It's about as close to a mandate as you're going to get. Still feasible that it could happen though I guess. The numbers in Parliament itself seem to favour Remain (http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-why-we-may-remain-even-if-we-vote-leave-a3272621.html).

The interesting thing is that the 650 members of the House of Commons are overwhelmingly in favour of staying in. How overwhelming? Well Brian Reading, for many years one of the team at Lombard Street Research, has done the sums and published them on the website of Omfif, the financial think-tank. He thinks the Conservatives are 50% for remain, 40% for out and 10% unknown.

On the Labour side, remain is supported by 215 members, leave by seven and there are 10 unknown. In percentage terms, that makes 93% in favour of staying, against 3% for leaving.

The 56 Scottish Nationalists and the eight Liberals are overwhelmingly for remain but the views of the Welsh and Northern Irish members are more mixed. Nevertheless, the overall picture is clear. Reading concludes that the MPs are 70% in favour of remaining with 20% wanting to leave and 10% whose preferences are unknown. That does not sound far off the mark.

[Yoda]

Yoda, I have good reason to trust those parties over the Tories and UKIP.
Maybe, but there's a big difference between being against something for a specific reason and being against it by proxy.

Take a look at some of the condescension in people's reactions to the vote. People are fools, and idiots, and sending the nation to "hell"? Is this a reasonable way to talk about disagreement when that disagreement is based on party allegiance rather than personal understanding?

Tories notoriously look out only for the rich; I'm not rich.
I'm guessing this is the kind of thing that Everybody Knows when they're in the other party, but which Tories themselves dispute. I'm guessing Tories think Labor "notoriously" likes handouts, too, right?

I don't claim to know everything about trade, but since this is the only thing I've been hearing about for the whole year, in addition to trying to research some of it myself, I somewhat/vaguely know what I'm talking about, fact is anyway, the vast majority of people who voted won't know the intricacies of every type of trading deal, I just had to vote based on what I could grasp, and I'll admit some things were too complex for me to handle.
I have no issue with that, and I'm not knocking the idea of trusting politicians to worry about the details. That's why we have them! :) But I'm not asking about "intricacies." I'm asking about the most basic mechanics of trade.

But, the next however many years will definitely be very uncertain for the UK, yes, it probably will work out in the end, but there's a chance it won't, and I believe the problems many people complain about are a result of the government anyway, not the EU.
I'll be enough debt as it is when I leave university, so why would I want to risk setting the UK back and making my life hell?
It's entirely reasonable to vote against uncertainty, particularly in the short-term. But I'm pretty sure that would lead to more nuanced objections than the ones we were seeing just a few pages ago, too.

But I didn't just vote based on trade, no one did. Immigrants contribute significantly to our services, if you bump into a Eastern European, they're more likely to be treating you than waiting to receive treatment.
But Britain can be pro-or-anti-immigrant regardless of whether or not it's part of the EU. So isn't this just another proxy? IE: the people for Leave are also people who generally don't like immigration policy, and I like immigration policy, therefore I'm with Remain? It's not really considering the policy itself, so much as counting how many political enemies happen to have chosen the other side. And that's the single-easiest mistake for political parties to fall into: opposing something because the other side likes it, rather than because they can articulate a coherent objection to it.

[christine]

No, Soldiers won the Falklands War... all Thatcher did was remove free milk from schools and shut coal mines, putting almost half of the UK out of work.

this +
but don't get me started, I've had enough today :D

[gandalf26]

By backing us when we try to engage trade with other countries. They will not want to help us now.

It's a near certainty that they will. By voting out of the EU, we have inevitably made our relations with European countries worse. Expect us to always come last on every Eurovision broadcast and have to pay extortionate prices for holidays in their countries.

LOL. Imagine the pressure from Business on Angela Merkel if she doesn't let them sell, Adidas stuff, BMW's, Mercedez in the massive UK market.

NOT

GONNA

HAPPEN

[CiCi]

this +
but don't get me started, I've had enough today :D

At least we can all bond over our hatred of Maggie :D

[Yoda]

Especially considering we could start a domino effect, other countries now want referendums it seems.
Oh no, pretty soon everyone will be self-governing. ;)

I'm being a little facetious, but there's a real argument here. I'm assuming you're a fan of democracy and agree that it's good for individual to govern themselves. I'm assuming, even if you like centralized power more than I do, that you recognize it has pitfalls. So I'm not sure why a confluence of nations is supposed to be this perfect sweet spot of representation, but individual nations governing themselves (which has been successful, and the norm, in many places for quite awhile now) is horrific.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Afghanistan was not much of a war, rather an all round bloody mess and waste of lives like Iraq.
It was still a war and we still had armies from around the EU to back us.

If we end up In a war with Russia we wont be alone, I guarantee you that.
I wouldn't guarantee it if it was just between us and Russia. We'd still get the U.S. joining but I doubt EU armies would.

Do you think leadership in France and EU are THAT petty that there wont be co-operation against the terror threat. REALLY?
Of course they are. We left the EU, therefore in their eyes we don't have access to their protection anywhere. They'll just tell us we fight our own battles now.

[gandalf26]

woke a up to a shock today to say the least!

It really is a shock because at 10pm last night all sides seemed to be conceding a remain victory, so lik eme a lot of people will have gone to sleep a little despondant or happy only to wake up and start feeling the opposite.

[Yoda]

By backing us when we try to engage trade with other countries. They will not want to help us now.
This is becoming a little silly now. When I ask you what "help us" means, you cannot possibly think changing it to "backing us" is an explanation.

Please explain what it actually means to have the EU's "help" or "backing" in a trade negotiation. And if you don't know what that actually means, that's totally fine...but it should probably preclude you from telling everyone who disagrees that they're stupid and sending their nation to hell, no?

It's a near certainty that they will.
Boy, this doesn't sound even remotely plausible, to me. I don't think there's any modern historical precedent for non-warring, first-world countries to cut off trade with one another. That just doesn't happen.

[gandalf26]

It was still a war and we still had armies from around the EU to back us.


I wouldn't guarantee it if it was just between us and Russia. We'd still get the U.S. joining but I doubt EU armies would.


Of course they are. We left the EU, therefore in their eyes we don't have access to their protection anywhere. They'll just tell us we fight our own battles now.

They went to Afghan to fight the GLOBAL war of terror, not because they are part of the EU. The war was led by the US.

Your whole post is just silly.

[CiCi]

Oh no, pretty soon everyone will be self-governing. ;)

I'm being a little facetious, but there's a real argument here. I'm assuming you're a fan of democracy and agree that it's good for individual to government themselves. I'm assuming, even if you like centralized power more than I do, that you recognize it has pitfalls. So I'm not sure why a confluence of nation is supposed to be this perfect sweet spot of representation, but individual nations governing themselves (which has been successful, and the norm, in many places for quite awhile now) is horrific.

It would make me more relived if everyone else started to leave, I must admit :D because then it really would look like we would improve upon leaving because the EU would have fallen a part. It's looking quite likely that other members will be leaving, actually. The Netherlands seem desperate to get out, and politicians all over want referendums, too.

[banality]

banality market predictions:

Down. Up a bit. More down. Up.

[Tacitus]

It really is a shock because at 10pm last night all sides seemed to be conceding a remain victory, so lik eme a lot of people will have gone to sleep a little despondant or happy only to wake up and start feeling the opposite.

A pollster for Cameron was predicting a handy win for Remain before the polls even closed last night, which led to Dave briefing the cabinet that he'd won. Farage got wind of this and conceded pretty quickly ... then unconceded ... then conceded again.

It was the last GE all over again.

[Yoda]

I doubt it. Regardless of how France vote in their referendum, they will hate us for being the first to vote out. Same with the other countries. They don't like us as it is. This is another reason for them to hate us.
You make the nations of the world sound like bored high school students.

[Chypmunk]

^ If that is the case ^ (skip a post) it's nice to know the reactions and post-vote happenings had about as much foundation as many of the arguments made before the vote :D

[Golgot]

Oh no, pretty soon everyone will be self-governing. ;)

I'm being a little facetious, but there's a real argument here. I'm assuming you're a fan of democracy and agree that it's good for individual to government themselves. I'm assuming, even if you like centralized power more than I do, that you recognize it has pitfalls. So I'm not sure why a confluence of nation is supposed to be this perfect sweet spot of representation, but individual nations governing themselves (which has been successful, and the norm, in many places for quite awhile now) is horrific.

Lord knows the EU is a bureaucratic nightmare. But nations like the UK do govern ourselves in almost every major aspect while working within it. One of the biggest exceptions where we've had to make a compromise that many don't like is on immigration, which has been the biggest driver of the debate.

The bit you're missing is that the EU was formed with one key concept running through it. The idea of making war less likely. Open borders, commingled communities, and in theory the fewest impediments to trade possible. You're less likely to invade your neighbour when you're making dollar by co-operating with them (and when your gran lives over there). That's the theory. It's a good theory.

It's far from perfect, but it seems to have been sustaining this particular vision, and that vision is worth some privations to people like me. If it were to fragment I could see some of these gains being eroded over time.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Please explain what it actually means to have the EU's "help" or "backing" in a trade negotiation.
n.

Isn't it a bit obvious? It helps us to claim trade we wouldn't otherwise get, meaning cheaper prices and a better economy for all.

[Yoda]

Lord knows the EU is a bureaucratic nightmare. But nations like the UK do govern ourselves in almost every major aspect while working within it. One of the biggest exceptions where we've had to make a compromise that many don't like is on immigration, which has been the biggest driver of the debate.
Yeah, that same debate has a way of overwhelming other concerns on this side of the pond, too, with people utterly savaged for being "right" 99% of the time if they manage to be "wrong" on immigration. I'd think that was unfortunate even if I weren't also very pro-immigration.

Re: "do govern themselves." I think the problem is one of abstraction. The reason democracy works is not that people choose the right thing, but that the people who make the choices have to see (and suffer/benefit from) the consequences. So anything which muddies that water makes a democracy less effective. It can be argued that a representative government saves enough in overhead, logistics, and general information overload to be worth the bit of abstraction it causes, but to add another layer entirely, on a multi-nation basis, really seems like it poses a problem to this feedback loop.

So I agree that the nations in question still do "govern themselves," they do so with a much larger disconnect between decisions and consequences. Some may find that necessary, or worth whatever benefits result, but I think there's a pretty clear downside there. It just usually loses out because the downside is abstract and long-term, and the benefits are more immediate and tangible, and thus easier to sell.

The bit you're missing is that the EU was formed with one key concept running through it. The idea of making war less likely. Open borders, commingled communities, and in theory the fewest impediments to trade possible. You're less likely to invade your neighbour when you're making dollar by co-operating with them (and when your gran lives over there). That's the theory. It's a good theory.
That's definitely a good theory! Hence the old saw about nations with a McDonalds never going to war with one another. ;) But that seems like something you can have without a European Union, too. Nothing about the EU is required for nations to embrace free trade.

Re: wars. Can you elaborate on this part a bit? I can't imagine there's much risk of the EU nations going to war independent the EU, at least not right now. Or are you saying it's designed to discourage (through some kind of display of strength) nations in Europe outside of the EU?

[Omnizoa]

Ladies and gentlemen I present to you the fallacy, Argumentum Ad Nauseam (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/49/Argument_by_Repetition).

"Restating the same claims, even rearranging the words or substituting words, is not the same as making new claims, and certainly does not make the claims any more true."

when we try to set up deals with bigger economies, they will be able to dictate terms to us,Why will they be able to "dictate" terms,Because we're only a small countryThat's just restating the initial claim. I'm asking why you think being smaller leads to this imbalance,Less land, smaller population, smaller armyThose are all just ways of restating the fact that they're smaller. What about this allows them to be "dictated" to,we'll be less influential.Less influential in what way,We don't have their backing for negotiations anymore.Again, meaning what?we'll be less influentialPeople keep saying this like it's self-evident, and I keep asking them how it actually works.we have less countries willing to help us with negotiations.Help how?By backing usThis is becoming a little silly now.Isn't it a bit obvious? It helps usHow?More voices = bigger controlAgain: how?More voices is more power and strength behind tradeHow does switching the word "force" to "power and strength" answer the question?How does my original point not answer yours anyway?Because I asked how something worked, and you just repeated that it worked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMbI7DmLCNI

[banality]

By backing us when we try to engage trade with other countries. They will not want to help us now.

It's a near certainty that they will. By voting out of the EU, we have inevitably made our relations with European countries worse. Expect us to always come last on every Eurovision broadcast and have to pay extortionate prices for holidays in their countries.

Germany already sought associate status for UK vis a vis EU. They blinked first.

[Yoda]

Isn't it a bit obvious?
No, and I think it's pretty conspicuous that I'm having such a hard time getting a straight answer on something that's "obvious."

It helps us to claim trade we wouldn't otherwise get, meaning cheaper prices and a better economy for all.
How? I really can't ask this any more directly.

[ashdoc]

No, Soldiers won the Falklands War... all Thatcher did was remove free milk from schools and shut coal mines, putting almost half of the UK out of work.

then why did she last as long as she did ?? i mean as PM .

[christine]

Oh no, pretty soon everyone will be self-governing. ;)

I'm being a little facetious, but there's a real argument here. I'm assuming you're a fan of democracy and agree that it's good for individual to govern themselves. I'm assuming, even if you like centralized power more than I do, that you recognize it has pitfalls. So I'm not sure why a confluence of nations is supposed to be this perfect sweet spot of representation, but individual nations governing themselves (which has been successful, and the norm, in many places for quite awhile now) is horrific.

Yoda, I think there's a little more behind this desire of some people to keep inside the EU than just a liking of centralised power. There's still a sense, a lingering memory or family memories of stories of wars in Europe that forms a big part of the heritage of European people. Although of course America was involved in both world wars, but we had war and death on our streets and the threat of invasion and the ravaged landscape of mainland European cities was unbelievable. We (most of us who would've liked to have stayedin the EU) see the EU now and are happy with the unity and the feeling that through trade we can all work together - this was the idea. Even in my lifetime the fact that some of the countries that were at war in the Balkans are now peaceful EU trading partners - Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia. Same goes for the likes of the Czech Republic, Poland and Hungary not now under the influence of Russia.
Also look at little Estonia, once occupied by the Russians and then the Nazis and then the Russians again, in the EU now since 2004 it's thriving, in fact it has an amazingly vital e-commerce economy.

I'm not saying all is sweetness and light. The top heavy administration needs revision as always happens in centralised organisations, but fact that we're living together and trading peacefully together is a plus if you compare it to the previous history of Europe

[Tacitus]

Ok then.

A nation (or 4 if you prefer) voted yesterday based on emotion, emotion which had been stoked up by both sides of the debate in the absence of actual policy. This is where 'Project Fear' and 'Project Hate' were born.

It's little wonder that such emotions, especially from younger voters, are now a bit raw. Go easy on them. :)

[Omnizoa]

It's looking quite likely that other members will be leaving, actually. The Netherlands seem desperate to get out, and politicians all over want referendums, too.
This seriously conflicts with the almost certainty that these same countries will refuse trade.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

How? I really can't ask this any more directly.

More voices = bigger control and more force.

[Omnizoa]

More voices = bigger control and more force.
*updates post*

[christine]

Ok then.

A nation (or 4 if you prefer) voted yesterday based on emotion, emotion which had been stoked up by both sides of the debate in the absence of actual policy. This is where 'Project Fear' and 'Project Hate' were born.

It's little wonder that such emotions, especially from younger voters, are now a bit raw. Go easy on them. :)

yes Tatty is right. You just have to look at the very large percentage of young people who voted to remain to see that the vast majority of them see themselves as citizens of the EU as well as Britains. I know my two sons were bitterly disappointed this morning, as me and himself were too (Bristol did vote 62% to remain, so good work Briz) . Now they see the Scots wanting out of the Union after we thought they were back with us, simply because they want to be in the EU, the Norns wanting in, the Welsh wanting out - it's no wonder that we're all emotional. This is on top of some vicious racism and the murder of an innocent MP. It's exhausting, and sad :(

[Yoda]

Yoda, I think there's a little more behind this desire of some people to keep inside the EU than just a liking of centralised power.
Certainly. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise. :)

There's still a sense, a lingering memory or family memories of stories of wars in Europe that forms a big part of the heritage of European people. Although of course America was involved in both world wars, but we had war and death on our streets and the threat of invasion and the ravaged landscape of mainland European cities was unbelievable. We (most of us who would've liked to have stayedin the EU) see the EU now and are happy with the unity and the feeling that through trade we can all work together - this was the idea.
Aye, that's remarkable progress. But my question in response to this is the same one I just asked Golgot: why not just have a trade agreement? I can't imagine the top-down policies that some of Britain has objected to is really the glue holding this all together (especially given that it led to this vote in the first place). The trade part makes sense, but you don't need the EU as its currently constituted for that.

[Golgot]

That's definitely a good theory! Hence the old saw about nations with a McDonalds never going to war with one another. ;) But that seems like something you can have without a European Union, too. Nothing about the EU is required for nations to embrace free trade.

Re: wars. Can you elaborate on this part a bit? I can't imagine there's much risk of the EU nations going to war independent the EU, at least not right now. Or are you saying it's designed to discourage (through some kind of display of strength) nations in Europe outside of the EU?

It was more about internal warring initially, with a focus on getting France and Germany to play nice in particular. There is a lot of bad blood in Europe. A helluva lot.

It's then experienced a form of feature creep, offering carrots to fractious neighbours to get them to join up (if they can move towards (http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/glossary/terms/accession-criteria_en.htm) a democratic 'rule of law' free market model)

Now sure all of these things can come to pass in a non-EU world, but what it's been successful at is actively pursuing that aim and acting as a forum for table-bashing & resolution (all be it very slow and unwieldy resolution normally ;)).

[Yoda]

More voices = bigger control and more force.
Again: how? What "force" do you get from having "more voices" and how is it leveraged in trade negotiations?

You cannot possibly think that this post, or any of the ones before it, have come within a mile (sorry, kilometer ;)) of answering the question. We're just playing whack-a-mole with synonyms.

[CiCi]

Omni, I also meant trading with the rest of the world etc. The USA said we would be the back of the queue if we left (Obama seems to have changed his tune now, though!) and I'm not worried that European countries will definitely make trade difficult, it's the possibility that they could. We just don't know for definite, they probably will be open for negotiations, but it is an uncertainty, and that does worry me.

[Omnizoa]

Now they see the Scots wanting out of the Union after we thought they were back with us, simply because they want to be in the EU, the Norns wanting in, the Welsh wanting out - it's no wonder that we're all emotional.
Sterile political negotiations about international sovereignty make me cry too.

[ashdoc]

https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13516418_10153542667792461_3369496843630527864_n.jpg?oh=96b9e94a48685561ba46026f265d61b8&oe=5801E847

[Yoda]

It was more about internal warring initially, with a focus on getting France and Germany to play nice in particular. There is a lot of bad blood in Europe. A helluva lot.
That makes sense. Where I'm stuck is how we get from "there's a lot of bad blood" to "we'll fix it by trying to impose top-down rules on otherwise diverse countries." Go along to get along through mutual trade, absent centralized edicts, seems like a much better way to make nice.

It's then experienced a form of feature creep, offering carrots to fractious neighbours to get them to join up (if they can move towards (http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/glossary/terms/accession-criteria_en.htm) a democratic 'rule of law' free market model)
Aye, and this is the part where I point out that far from just being a fixable mistake, this is what inevitably happens with any centralized power. So even if the idea was just to give all these nations an easier way to meet and trade, there's really no version of this that doesn't eventually turn into a web of carrots and sticks and international resentment.

Now sure all of these things can come to pass in a non-EU world, but what it's been successful at is actively pursuing that aim and acting as a forum for table-bashing & resolution (all be it very slow and unwieldy resolution normally ;)).
I guess I'm still pretty fuzzy on why you need that level of centralization to a) trade and b) talk.

[Yoda]

Omni, I also meant trading with the rest of the world etc. The USA said we would be the back of the queue if we left (Obama seems to have changed his tune now, though!)
I think you're going to see a lot of this. It's one thing to make vague threats when the outcome is in doubt, but only a really unhinged leader is going to cut off free trade with another peaceful nation based. At most, you'll see some tariffs, but those always harm the imposer more than the person they're imposing them on, and are eventually abandoned.

[Omnizoa]

Omni, I also meant trading with the rest of the world etc. The USA said we would be the back of the queue if we left (Obama seems to have changed his tune now, though!) and I'm not worried that European countries will definitely make trade difficult, it's the possibility that they could. We just don't know for definite, they probably will be open for negotiations, but it is an uncertainty, and that does worry me.
Unspecific people you don't know, trading unspecific things you don't know, for unspecific reasons you don't know, may or may not encounter unspecific problems you don't know, and that worries you?

Are you personally involved in international trade at all, CiCi? Are you sure you're not making something impersonal personal?
https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13516418_10153542667792461_3369496843630527864_n.jpg?oh=96b9e94a48685561ba46026f265d61b8&oe=5801E847
*laughs*

[Citizen Rules]

I have not read a single post on the last 10 pages, so my apologies if my next observation has already been made...

Now that Britain has left the EU, other nations will follow. IMO immigration between EU countries should have been left off the original EU agreement. The business trade part of the EU agreement was sound. But I would never go for the idea that a sovereign nation can not have control of it's own borders.

[Omnizoa]

So even if the idea was just to give all these nations an easier way to meet and trade, there's really no version of this that doesn't eventually turn into a web of carrots and sticks and international resentment.
Good visual metaphor.

[Omnizoa]

IMO immigration between EU countries should have been left off the original EU agreement. The business trade part of the EU agreement was sound. But I would never go for the idea that a souvenir nation can not have control of it's own borders.
Yeah, why was that even a thing?

[Golgot]

I guess I'm still pretty fuzzy on why you need that level of centralization to a) trade and b) talk.

You're missing the 'mingle' bit. The mingle bit is also a key ingredient, although again granted could possibly be achieved through bi-lateral agreements etc.

We kinda come back to the 'better together' size issue here. Presenting a unified front in refusing to deal with a country until it's sorted out its human rights issues and levels of corruption? That's a pretty potent set up. Acting as lonewolves there are always gonna be operators who prefer to hold their nose and risk the deal.

Certainly there are aspects here where we're holding our nose and flattening 'diversity' somewhat as you put it. But would you find these criteria (http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis/index_en.htm) hugely galling if applied to the US? Or just annoyingly bureaucratic? ;)

[CiCi]

Yes, it does Omni. Because if it goes wrong it has the potential to affect my livelihood and opportunities, and the fact that not one Brexit campaigner proposed a comprehensive plan as to what they were going to do if they won doesn't fill with me with ease, either.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Again: how? What "force" do you get from having "more voices" and how is it leveraged in trade negotiations?
s.

More voices is more power and strength behind trade negotiations.

[Omnizoa]

would you find these criteria (http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis/index_en.htm) hugely galling if applied to the US? Or just annoyingly bureaucratic? ;)
Administrative co-operation and mutual assistance between Member States is aimed at ensuring a smooth functioning of the internal market as concerns taxation and provides tools to prevent intra-Community tax evasion and tax avoidance. Member States must ensure that the necessary implementing and enforcement capacities, including links to the relevant EU computerised taxation systems, are in place.
Annoyingly bureaucratic.

[Omnizoa]

Yes, it does Omni. Because if it goes wrong it has the potential to affect my livelihood and opportunities,
Your nonspecific livelihood and opportunities you don't know.

[Omnizoa]

More voices is more power and strength behind trade negotiations.
STILL goin'!

[CiCi]

Doesn't change the fact that it could affect my life though, Omni. Unlikely, yes, but it is an undeniable possibility now.

EDIT: and if you want specifics, it could cause the prices of food and fuel to increase, with international corporations possibly choosing to base themselves in the EU instead.

[Yoda]

More voices = bigger control and more force.
Again: how? What "force" do you get from having "more voices" and how is it leveraged in trade negotiations?
More voices is more power and strength behind trade negotiations.
How does switching the word "force" to "power and strength" answer the question?

[DalekbusterScreen5]

How does switching the word "force" to "power and strength" answer the question?

How does my original point not answer yours anyway?

[Omnizoa]

Doesn't change the fact that it could affect my life though, Omni. Unlikely, yes, but it is an undeniable possibility now.
Now I'm worried. If the cheap tat market goes under what will become of Ashens?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR1oAXaPLMo

[Yoda]

You're missing the 'mingle' bit. The mingle bit is also a key ingredient, although again granted could possibly be achieved through bi-lateral agreements etc.
What does "mingle" mean in this case? Ease of travel across member nations?

We kinda come back to the 'better together' size issue here. Presenting a unified front in refusing to deal with a country until it's sorted out its human rights issues and levels of corruption? That's a pretty potent set up. Acting as lonewolves there are always gonna be operators who prefer to hold their nose and risk the deal.
Hmmm. I have two responses to this, and I'm not sure which matters more, but here they are:

First, I wouldn't automatically grant the premise that we should be refusing to trade with corrupt or abusive countries. I tend to think trade is the single best way of infiltrating cultures like that.

Second, what you say makes sense on its face, but I think you can make a good argument that any nation willing to do that is only going to be chafing against the other constraints of such a union to begin with. I think there's a catch-22 here, where the nations that are able to operate this way in the EU are nations that probably don't need it to operate that way in its absence. In other words, how often is the EU really playing Higgins to the Eliza Doolittle of some rogue-ish state, as opposed to just providing a drawing room to commiserate with Pickering?

Certainly there are aspects here where we're holding our nose and flattening 'diversity' somewhat as you put it. But would you find these criteria (http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis/index_en.htm) hugely galling if applied to the US? Or just annoyingly bureaucratic? ;)
Whether or not the specific policies are objectionable is a very different question than whether or not giving someone power over you is. If you put a yoke on me, I'm not going to like it even if it hasn't started turning my head yet.

That said, I think "annoyingly bureaucratic" is a perfectly good reason to object all by itself, since there's nothing stopping every member state from still trading freely. Which they should definitely do.

[Omnizoa]

How does my original point not answer yours anyway?
It doesn't answer it because it doesn't answer it.

[Sleezy]

What I'd like to know—given some of the immediate fears about immigration and national security that contributed to the decision to leave the EU—is what anti-immigration and/or deportation measures Britain will push to enact, and when.

It's hard to ignore similar sentiments we're hearing in the U.S. and I can't help but think this decision bolsters Donald Trump, who has spoken the loudest in favor of closing the borders and shipping out unwanted immigrants. Obviously, Trump's got to win in November to have a shot at making those goals a reality, but it occurred to me that I don't know enough about the current state of British politics to understand how close some of these ideas are to becoming actual law.

Is this something that's near on the horizon? Anyone?

[Yoda]

How does my original point not answer yours anyway?
Seriously? Because I asked how something worked, and you just repeated that it worked. It doesn't answer it the same way yelling "BANANA!" doesn't answer it.

It's okay to say you don't know. Certainly better than this rhetorical Benny Hill runaround thing we're doing right now.

[ashdoc]

here is what the admin of an indian forum said--

Too many beggar and parasite EU nations were sucking off of GB and Germany. So I guess, the Brits knew what they wanted.

I got this forward in the email about BREXIT. Sharing with you all

Quote:
I get philosophical when such events occur - what happens, happens for the best !

EU was an idea born of the past several wars europe had. Probably it's time is past.

Probably Germany tried to achieve what it could not with the war. Angela Merkel's now failed twice over - immigration and EU disintegration. Her political career is finished. Her East German heritage weighed down too heavily on her.

Probably the British populace is smarter than the politicians. They chose wisely. They chose what was right for UK - independence, which they had lost by being a part of the EU.

The world will move on. EU in all probability will disintegrate. It's an event in the past.

Look forward to what continues to work. The sun will be up again tomorrow. Birds will chirp. People around you will smile when you smile at them.

[CiCi]

Brexiters want an Australian style points system to permit immigrants access, I think. Australia was mentioned a hell of a lot by that camp, anyway :lol:

[Omnizoa]

BANANA!
I don't see Dalek online any more. The count stands at 12. (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=1536785#post1536785)

[Nausicaä]

Why is Russia mentioned in here, Putin isn't that thick that he will go to war with Britain. As much as I am disappointed that we have come out of the EU, I agree with the guys who say it's deluded to think we would be left on our own... come on. Bit of scaremongering in here when it comes to war.

We are in his good books for now, he wanted us out. :kiss:

http://i.makeagif.com/media/11-03-2015/Glu8jV.gif

[ashdoc]

older generation voters voted for brexit while the young generation didnt want to leave....

so are the experienced people wise or are the young generation fools

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/millenials-fury-over-baby-boomers-vote-for-brexit/

[Omnizoa]

so are the experienced people wise or are the young generation fools
Heads I win, tails you lose.

[ashdoc]

Heads I win, tails you lose.

i mean ---which is more true .

[Omnizoa]

i mean ---which is more true .
Exactly.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

older generation voters voted for brexit while the young generation didnt want to leave....

so are the experienced people wise or are the young generation fools

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/millenials-fury-over-baby-boomers-vote-for-brexit/

The old generation are just selfish with their vote. They didn't think of people like myself of the younger generation and what WE want. It's our future, not theirs.

[Omnizoa]

Gonna answer that question, Dalek? I'm desperately curious to know by this point.

[gandalf26]

Why do the young so desperately want to remain? I don't get it.

[CiCi]

For me, gandalf, I don't want a period of uncertainty during what will be a crucial period for me personally. I'll be heading to uni in September, I want to study abroad in Canada for a term, and to do so I'll need 10,000 CAD which was about £5,000 but with the value of the pound plummeting, I'll need to raise more money, which is more difficult thanks to the Tories ******* over students and making everything a loan.

Furthermore, when I leave uni, I'll obviously want to enter a job asap, but there may not be a lot of jobs available should it not work out well, and with crippling debt on my shoulders that the Tories want to make a criminal offence to not pay back, that's the last thing I need.

Whereas by voting Remain, I'm voting for the status quo where things won't be as bad. That was a large part of why I voted the way I did, anyway.

[CosmicRunaway]

This is irrelevant to the current conversation, but I'd like to call out some blatant ignorance I saw someone post on an acquaintance's facebook page because it is in regards to the Brexit vote:

Yes, congratulations on xenophobia, poverty and quite possibly war within a few years. I'm sure we'll all love it. The EU court of human rights was one of the biggest checks on some of the most oppressive (racist) actions of the British state. This isn't actually a win for freedom if you actually knew anything about Europe.The UK will not have more open borders at all, especially now that the EU Court of Human Rights decisions won't apply. They will return to locking up brown people. Destroying a federation will mean the world overall will have less mobility.I have no words. Apparently some people think the EU is the only thing keeping the English from being racists. :facepalm:

So on the plus side, at least people here are debating the implications of potential trade agreements (or the lack thereof) instead. Even if it's just going in circles right now, it's still semi-productive in comparison.

[Omnizoa]

Apparently some people think the EU is the only thing keeping the English from being racists.
Makes sense. The shock collar around my neck is the only thing preventing ME from blurting out racial epithets.

[Golgot]

What does "mingle" mean in this case? Ease of travel across member nations?

Yep, although it also involves the controversial minimum quotas, especially when a new member joins.

Hmmm. I have two responses to this, and I'm not sure which matters more, but here they are:

First, I wouldn't automatically grant the premise that we should be refusing to trade with corrupt or abusive countries. I tend to think trade is the single best way of infiltrating cultures like that.

Certainly it can be, but which countries would you say have been turned from war and/or corrupt/despotic norms by trade alone recently? Certainly the stimulus is there globally, but which countries would you say have essentially self-reformed to get better access to the party?

Second, what you say makes sense on its face, but I think you can make a good argument that any nation willing to do that is only going to be chafing against the other constraints of such a union to begin with. I think there's a catch-22 here, where the nations that are able to operate this way in the EU are nations that probably don't need it to operate that way in its absence. In other words, how often is the EU really playing Higgins to the Eliza Doolittle of some rogue-ish state, as opposed to just providing a drawing room to commiserate with Pickering?

Depends on your view of Turkey and Ukraine, the latest candidates looking to be subsumed into the Happy-Borg. They're properly deserving Elizas if you ask me. Damps down well-oiled moustache not-at-all patronisingly ;)

Whether or not the specific policies are objectionable is a very different question than whether or not giving someone power over you is. If you put a yoke on me, I'm not going to like it even if it hasn't started turning my head yet.

That said, I think "annoyingly bureaucratic" is a perfectly good reason to object all by itself, since there's nothing stopping every member state from still trading freely. Which they should definitely do.

Ok, lemme know if you find a trade agreement outside the EU that stipulates human rights should be respected ;)

There are things the EU attempts to do that free markets don't. The invisible hand really doesn't scratch some of these itches. That said, the EU's bureaucratic bogginess does have lots of potential for abuse and can act as a break on creativity and free expression, and has certainly become pretty bloaty. I can see why it doesn't appeal on those fronts for sure.

[christine]

Aye, that's remarkable progress. But my question in response to this is the same one I just asked Golgot: why not just have a trade agreement? I can't imagine the top-down policies that some of Britain has objected to is really the glue holding this all together (especially given that it led to this vote in the first place). The trade part makes sense, but you don't need the EU as its currently constituted for that.

Yoda, I think I'll just let Gol answer for me, we seem to be on the same page :D

It was more about internal warring initially, with a focus on getting France and Germany to play nice in particular. There is a lot of bad blood in Europe. A helluva lot.

It's then experienced a form of feature creep, offering carrots to fractious neighbours to get them to join up (if they can move towards (http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/glossary/terms/accession-criteria_en.htm) a democratic 'rule of law' free market model)

Now sure all of these things can come to pass in a non-EU world, but what it's been successful at is actively pursuing that aim and acting as a forum for table-bashing & resolution (all be it very slow and unwieldy resolution normally ;)).

feature creep - a good phrase! Remember Yoda that the EU did start in 1957 just as a Common Market - a trade integrated market for the post WW2 mainland European countries. This is only 12 years after the war finished so I imagine at the time it would've been a novel, and maybe even a difficult partnership to broker given the previous emnities. De Gaulle was dead against the UK being part of the EEC (as it was known as then), he vetoed our membership at least twice as he thought we would be the reason the EEC would break up...

[gandalf26]

For me, gandalf, I don't want a period of uncertainty during what will be a crucial period for me personally. I'll be heading to uni in September, I want to study abroad in Canada for a term, and to do so I'll need 10,000 CAD which was about £5,000 but with the value of the pound plummeting, I'll need to raise more money, which is more difficult thanks to the Tories ******* over students and making everything a loan.

Furthermore, when I leave uni, I'll obviously want to enter a job asap, but there may not be a lot of jobs available should it not work out well, and with crippling debt on my shoulders that the Tories want to make a criminal offence to not pay back, that's the last thing I need.

Whereas by voting Remain, I'm voting for the status quo where things won't be as bad. That was a large part of why I voted the way I did, anyway.

Fair enough on the financial front as short term financially we are "probably" going to struggle but afaik you don't have to pay back student loan in the UK until you reach a high enough salary.

On the jobs front graduates have been really struggling to find jobs they want for years now so perhaps a big change like UK independence could be good thing.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

On the jobs front graduates have been really struggling to find jobs they want for years now so perhaps a big change like UK independence could be good thing.

Are you having a laugh? This will make unemployment worse and we'll have the elderly to blame for that. They can't expect us to give up our seats for them on public transport anymore.

[The Rodent]

I doubt this exit will effect jobs any more than they already are effected.


I applied for about 1500 jobs, not one got back to me... I found out there was over 15,000 people applying for them as well as me.
Jobs in the UK are like rocking horse sh*t right now... and it was caused by the current government.
My prediction, is this exit will force the UK to start producing stuff again, hence, more jobs.

[Omnizoa]

Are you having a laugh? This will make unemployment worse and we'll have the elderly to blame for that. They can't expect us to give up our seats for them on public transport anymore.
Are YOU having a laugh?

You're going to spite elderly people on the bus?

[gandalf26]

Are you having a laugh? This will make unemployment worse and we'll have the elderly to blame for that. They can't expect us to give up our seats for them on public transport anymore.

LOL most of you don't anyway, too busy glaring at your telephones :)

and don't call me elderly :D

[The Rodent]

I don't even move out of the disabled seat when a wheelchair user gets on the bus.
My thinking, is I was there first.

[Omnizoa]

I don't even move out of the disabled seat when a wheelchair user gets on the bus.
My thinking, is I was there first.
My thinking is: "Damn. A wheelchair is going to block the aisle unless they take this seat I'm sitting in."

[The Rodent]

Trust me, a dude in a chair won't stop me getting off the bus in an emergency.
Doesn't take much to tip him out the way.

[The Rodent]

I am of course joking about the bus seats thing.

[Omnizoa]

Just put the priority seating on the upper deck of the buses.

That'll show those old geezers with their walkers and their dentures and their dirty voting hands.

[Yoda]

The old generation are just selfish with their vote. They didn't think of people like myself of the younger generation and what WE want. It's our future, not theirs.
Or maybe they did, and came to a different conclusion than you. This seems slightly more plausible than the idea that they're all spiteful jerks who're dumber than their grandchildren.

Are you having a laugh? This will make unemployment worse and we'll have the elderly to blame for that.
I'd ask you how it will make unemployment worse, but I'm pretty sure I'd just get back something like "because more people would be unemployed."

They can't expect us to give up our seats for them on public transport anymore.
That'll show them for rejecting the spirit of cooperation.

[gandalf26]

My thinking is ********* cripples!!:)

[The Rodent]

Coming out of their homes and taking all our chairs.

[CiCi]

Fair enough on the financial front as short term financially we are "probably" going to struggle but afaik you don't have to pay back student loan in the UK until you reach a high enough salary.

On the jobs front graduates have been really struggling to find jobs they want for years now so perhaps a big change like UK independence could be good thing.
That's true, but they want to implement some sort of change to it so that more people will pay off their loans quickly, it would take a while to actually implement, but it is something the Tories have discussed.

And I really hope you are right, and with the currency already recovering, I'd like to think that you could be. But it's a risk I wasn't willing to take yesterday, I didn't know that recovery would begin within hours.

What I hope comes out of this as well is no more Tory majorities, and people seem to have really lost faith in them this time, so it'll be interesting to see! It'll be interesting to see what happens to UKIP as well from here.

[gandalf26]

Yoda that is some of the funniest **** I ever did read.

[The Rodent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUTnNKhF-EU

[gandalf26]

That's true, but they want to implement some sort of change to it so that more people will pay off their loans quickly, it would take a while to actually implement, but it is something the Tories have discussed.

And I really hope you are right, and with the currency already recovering, I'd like to think that you could be. But it's a risk I wasn't willing to take yesterday, I didn't know that recovery would begin within hours.

What I hope comes out of this as well is no more Tory majorities, and people seem to have really lost faith in them this time, so it'll be interesting to see! It'll be interesting to see what happens to UKIP as well from here.

Yea I'm interested in what UKIP and Farage do next.

The economy will go up and down, if Europe starts to crumble following Brexit the £ may actually go higher, I'm no economist though.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/F6F3/production/_90091236_newftsechart.png

[The Rodent]

I don't care if the £ has dropped in value a bit... tbh, I'd take a bag of cat turds over a Euro any day.

[Omnizoa]

I am of course joking about the bus seats thing.
I'm not. Old people think they have the right to vote? Oughta strap 'em to the top of buses, get 'em on a headstart to heaven.

That'll show them for rejecting the spirit of cooperation.
Damn straight. This a democracy... with FISTS.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I doubt this exit will effect jobs any more than they already are effected.


I applied for about 1500 jobs, not one got back to me... I found out there was over 15,000 people applying for them as well as me.
Jobs in the UK are like rocking horse sh*t right now... and it was caused by the current government.
My prediction, is this exit will force the UK to start producing stuff again, hence, more jobs.

It will because employers won't be able to afford to hire any more. We're heading into a recession.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Or maybe they did, and came to a different conclusion than you. This seems slightly more plausible than the idea that they're all spiteful jerks who're dumber than their grandchildren.
If they considered those of us in the next generation, they would have voted how we wanted to vote: to remain. Because that's what we want (there's statistics for that). But no, instead they vote for what they want.

[The Rodent]

We've been in a recession for years already, because of Europe, the banks, and a spineless thieving government.


Now we no longer have Europe, the banks have to listen to us now... and the government have been sent a clear message with this exit that they have to do what the people bloody well say.

[Omnizoa]

If they considered those of us in the next generation, they would have voted how we wanted to vote: to remain. Because that's what we want (there's statistics for that). But no, instead they vote for what they want.
The... *sigh* parenting analogies are too obvious even for me.

[The Rodent]

Britain has an identity again.
No dictatorship from the Nazis anymore.
Britain can become the proud nation it once was.

[The Rodent]

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier...




The generation of oldies who voted out... are the same generation that voted in, back in 1975.
They have been given another vote, and voted out.


Says a lot about the EU when the people who voted it in, have turned back at the first chance they were given.
Not only that, but I haven't spoken to a single friend of mine who voted to stay, and my friends ages range from 18-75.

[gandalf26]

Dalek is trolling us all, surely.

[The Rodent]

In fact... my kids had a mock vote at their school. Ages 6-11.


They all voted out as well.

[CiCi]

Dalek is trolling us all, surely.
It's been an emotional day :lol: my immediate reaction was one of extreme panic

And Rodent, I'm the complete reverse, I know people of all ages, every one of them voted Remain, and I'm in the North East :lol: my dad voted out, though.

[Golgot]

Britain has an identity again.
No dictatorship from the Nazis anymore.
Britain can become the proud nation it once was.

You really do know astoundingly little about the Nazis don't you.

[The Rodent]

They took our jerbs!

[Yoda]

If they considered those of us in the next generation, they would have voted how we wanted to vote: to remain. Because that's what we want (there's statistics for that). But no, instead they vote for what they want.
The part where this goes off the rails is where you assume they did it to spite you, rather than because they actually thought it was the best thing.

And if it were still on the rails, it would go off again at the suggestion that older voters should cede their judgment to whatever younger voters in an informal opinion poll say.

In fact, forget I said anything about rails. There are no rails here. This train's just barreling through the forest at full speed.

[Omnizoa]

In fact, forget I said anything about rails. There are no rails here. This train's just barreling through the forest at full speed.
With old people strapped to the top. Don't forget, that's important.

[The Rodent]

Right, I'm done with this now.


What's done is done.
The people have spoken... democracy has done its jerb.


Some may be butt hurt, but, that's democracy for you. Not everyone can get ketchup on their chips.


I'm done with the thread now or I'll just start trolling because I think it's funny when people argue over politics.

[Omnizoa]

For once, I'm inclined to agree with Rodent.

[The Rodent]

For once, I'm inclined to agree with Rodent.

Did they take your jerb too?

[Omnizoa]

Did they take your jerb too?
Enough showboating in the endzone.

[honeykid]

Look forward to what continues to work. The sun will be up again tomorrow. Birds will chirp. People around you will smile when you smile at them.
No they won't. This is Britain. If you smile at strangers they'll think you're a weirdo. Of course, there could be nervous smiling and, to an outsider, this could be confusing. :D

I have no words. Apparently some people think the EU is the only thing keeping the English from being racists. :facepalm:
This is just wrong. Not even the EU could stop us being racist. We have a class system for crying out loud! We'll judge you just because you don't know how to pronounce "Magdalen College" correctly. Racism is child's play to us.

I doubt this exit will effect jobs any more than they already are effected.


I applied for about 1500 jobs, not one got back to me... I found out there was over 15,000 people applying for them as well as me.
Jobs in the UK are like rocking horse sh*t right now... and it was caused by the current government.
My prediction, is this exit will force the UK to start producing stuff again, hence, more jobs.
On the jobs front I suspect it will be swings and roundabouts. Some will win, others will lose. That's the way of things and I don't think it'll be any different here.

Now we no longer have Europe, the banks have to listen to us now... and the government have been sent a clear message with this exit that they have to do what the people bloody well say.
What gives you this idea? Rodent, you so craaaazy.

They took our jerbs!
No, they bombed our chippies. Get it right. ;)

[The Rodent]

Not even the EU could stop us being racist. We have a class system for crying out loud! We'll judge you just because you don't know how to pronounce "Magdalen College" correctly. Racism is child's play to us.





"Aluminium" too.
And the meaning of the word "Football".


Oh wait, I've directed my prejudice in the wrong direction. Europe is East.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

The generation of oldies who voted out... are the same generation that voted in, back in 1975.
They have been given another vote, and voted out.

Doesn't matter. It's not their future.

[Yoda]

Yep, although it also involves the controversial minimum quotas, especially when a new member joins.
The free travel thing is a cool idea that I'm probably for. Though again, it doesn't seem like something you can only do if you require lots of unrelated capitulation from member states.

Certainly it can be, but which countries would you say have been turned from war and/or corrupt/despotic norms by trade alone recently? Certainly the stimulus is there globally, but which countries would you say have essentially self-reformed to get better access to the party?
By trade alone? None. I don't think trade can do that alone, hence the word "infiltrating." I don't think refusing to trade has led to reform all by itself, either. The question is which is more likely to get that ball rolling. And if there's any uncertainty about that (and I think we'd both agree there is), shouldn't that settle the matter? If we're going to centralize power across an entire content, shouldn't it at least be for something inarguably effective/good?

Depends on your view of Turkey and Ukraine, the latest candidates looking to be subsumed into the Happy-Borg. They're properly deserving Elizas if you ask me. Damps down well-oiled moustache not-at-all patronisingly ;)
I'm not sure what my view is on either, exactly, but the question of causality is sticky either way: is the EU making them change, or is interest in joining just a sign that they've changed on their own already? There are similar arguments here, from libertarians, about various pieces of civil rights legislation: how it's not really leading the charge, because by the time the political will exists for it, it's already on its way to being unnecessary. So whether or not these states qualify in the way you're talking about isn't really the question: it's more the chicken/egg thing.

Ok, lemme know if you find a trade agreement outside the EU that stipulates human rights should be respected ;)
I know of none, but isn't this a different argument entirely? Is the argument that Britain needs the EU for economic reasons, or that it needs to sacrifice its autonomy to the EU to help human rights around the world? Change a few nouns and isn't this the Iraq war debate in reverse? ;)

There are things the EU attempts to do that free markets don't. The invisible hand really doesn't scratch some of these itches. That said, the EU's bureaucratic bogginess does have lots of potential for abuse and can act as a break on creativity and free expression, and has certainly become pretty bloaty. I can see why it doesn't appeal on those fronts for sure.
Yeah, and honestly, that's all I was getting at here. My intellectual prior is that centralized power is bad and clear, tight feedback loops between votes and consequences are good. But I'm not too worked up about people who see the pitfalls but ultimately lean the other way. I only bothered replying at all because the sentiment here hasn't been "it's wrong" so much as "it's absurd and no well-meaning person could have voted for it."

[The Rodent]

I think the younger generation, for once in their miserable existence, should pay attention to their elders, and learn from their mistakes, open their eyes, and realise that every now and then their elders should be respected and listened to.

[banality]

Doesn't matter. It's not their future.

Disenfranchise everyone over 50.

[honeykid]

From what I hear, the public's mood in Turkey to join the EU has reversed quite a bit over the last few years. That's not the say they won't join if asked, but the appetite isn't there like it was before, apparently.

[Citizen Rules]

I have not read a single post on the last 10 pages, so my apologies if my next observation has already been made...

Now that Britain has left the EU, other nations will follow. IMO immigration between EU countries should have been left off the original EU agreement. The business trade part of the EU agreement was sound. But I would never go for the idea that a souvenir nation can not have control of it's own borders.Whoops, I made a typo, I was not suggesting Britain was a souvenir nation, I meant to say a sovereign nation. I think highly of Britain and the UK.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I think the younger generation, for once in their miserable existence, should pay attention to their elders, and learn from their mistakes, open their eyes, and realise that every now and then their elders should be respected and listened to.

Hardly a 'mistake'. The EU has been a major contribution to our economy.

[Chypmunk]

I'm joining the can't be arsed to read every post fraternity ..... but I've read a few of the more recent ones .... someone give me a shout when the thread has reached the point of Logan's Run ..... part of it at least seems to be going in that general direction :D

[Camo]

I voted remain. I have been pretty sickened by the response to the results by both sides so far to be honest. This country made a majority decision and i think we should get behind that and as a whole figure out how best to deal with it. I know that sounds like empty words, but i just think us remainders (hope no one has used that yet :D) shouldn't sit around in despair and instead adapt to the situation and try to work towards the best outcome.

None of this is directed towards anyone here btw, there's been like 12 pages since i read this so i don't really have a clue what people have been saying here.

[honeykid]

Forget all this now. As I said earlier, now the real fun starts.

One question I wanted an answer too has already been answered. Would Cameron last a year? I didn't think so regardless of the result. But now we know he'll be gone in a few months.

[Camo]

The part where this goes off the rails is where you assume they did it to spite you, rather than because they actually thought it was the best thing.

And if it were still on the rails, it would go off again at the suggestion that older voters should cede their judgment to whatever younger voters in an informal opinion poll say.

In fact, forget I said anything about rails. There are no rails here. This train's just barreling through the forest at full speed.

The response to elders has been disgusting. My Great Aunt who is 82 years old was walking home with a few others her age and had verbal abuse thrown at her. She voted remain :rolleyes:

This full thing is just horrible. It would be the exact same thing if it was the other way round, admittedly i'd be happy with that result so i can't say if i would be as disgusted with the responses but i am fully including the remain camp in this.

Also good riddance Cameron. Sorry but i didn't feel sorry for him i don't really believe in the lesser of two evils we are going to get another Scumbag as PM but what else is new? Sorry for being so cynical but Cameron is vile, i don't like the idea of someone like him being a better version of anything.

[Thursday Next]

I voted remain. I have been pretty sickened by the response to the results by both sides so far to be honest. This country made a majority decision and i think we should get behind that and as a whole figure out how best to deal with it. I know that sounds like empty words, but i just think us remainders (hope no one has used that yet :D) shouldn't sit around in despair and instead adapt to the situation and try to work towards the best outcome.

Couldn't agree more Camo. Name calling on both sides is appalling. A sore loser is bad but an ungracious winner is worse.

I'm not happy about the result but it's done; what we need now is leaders who will work out the best deal going forward.

Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on. ;)

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I voted remain. I have been pretty sickened by the response to the results by both sides so far to be honest. This country made a majority decision and i think we should get behind that and as a whole figure out how best to deal with it. I know that sounds like empty words, but i just think us remainders (hope no one has used that yet :D) shouldn't sit around in despair and instead adapt to the situation and try to work towards the best outcome.

None of this is directed towards anyone here btw, there's been like 12 pages since i read this so i don't really have a clue what people have been saying here.

I refuse to get behind it. I want this country to burn now. We don't deserve success anymore after this.

[gandalf26]

Due to my own personal guilt at having voted leave I will be going out every day to look for treasure to help the economic situation, I have just returned from dog walk and sadly I didn't find any.....this time.

[Sleezy]

Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on. ;)

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j38/iusreview/nido04b_zpssvohc1pi.png

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

https://youtu.be/Pe0hAbXEpQk

[Camo]

Yeah, Dalekbuster is clearly taking the piss.

[Citizen Rules]

I refuse to get behind it. I want this country to burn now. We don't deserve success anymore after this.Damn...that's some pretty hateful language towards your own country. That sounds like your decision is not based on pros or cons, but on some utopia idea of a one world united government.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

https://youtu.be/041nXAAn714

[Camo]

Damn...that's some pretty hateful language towards your own country. That sounds like your decision is not based on pros or cons, but on some utopia idea of a one world united government.

Sounds more like his decision to post that was based on how edgy it sounded.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Damn...that's some pretty hateful language towards your own country. That sounds like your decision is not based on pros or cons, but on some utopia idea of a one world united government.

My decision to vote Remain was based on how well we as a nation have coped under the EU for many years and how those voting for Leave have absolutely no idea what we'll do once we leave. Now Leave as won, the best thing to happen is for the country to collapse so those who voted Leave can see the damage they have done. It's what this country deserves for such a foolish mistake.

[gandalf26]

From Suzanne Evans UKIP

A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.

[Citizen Rules]

Sounded like sour grapes to me. He loves his country so much that when the vote doesn't go his way he wants the country to burn?

[Citizen Rules]

My decision to vote Remain was based on how well we as a nation have coped under the EU for many years and how those voting for Leave have absolutely no idea what we'll do once we leave. Now Leave as won, the best thing to happen is for the country to collapse so those who voted Leave can see the damage they have done. It's what this country deserves for such a foolish mistake.What ever, I will let you guys hash it out. Though it's silly to wish your own country to collapse just because your leaving the EU. I mean Britain has been a world leader for centuries without being told what to do by Brussels. But then what do I know?

[Golgot]

I'm not sure what my view is on either, exactly, but the question of causality is sticky either way: is the EU making them change, or is interest in joining just a sign that they've changed on their own already? There are similar arguments here, from libertarians, about various pieces of civil rights legislation: how it's not really leading the charge, because by the time the political will exists for it, it's already on its way to being unnecessary. So whether or not these states qualify in the way you're talking about isn't really the question: it's more the chicken/egg thing.

Yep fair point. It all comes down to whether you buy into the 'vision' side of the EU. IE a country could be eager to emulate the successful neighbour next door, but they might just pick and chose the bits they want. The length of time it takes to join the EU certainly shows dedication from the eager applicant, but the way the EU hammers away at key sticking points (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Serbia_to_the_European_Union#Negotiation_progress) until they're all sorted certainly makes it a markedly active affair on their side. Serbia's ongoing 'accession' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Serbia_to_the_European_Union) there is a good example.

I know of none, but isn't this a different argument entirely? Is the argument that Britain needs the EU for economic reasons, or that it needs to sacrifice its autonomy to the EU to help human rights around the world? Change a few nouns and isn't this the Iraq war debate in reverse? ;)

Personally I voted Remain for a suite of reasons. The primary one was that I genuinely like the EU's broader 'vision', the active and genuinely-felt pursuit of peace through mutual benefit, the soft power outreach to neighbours. On balance, I genuinely see it as a 'force for good', although one with increasing issues. On the economics side... gallic shrug. We'll do fine one way or another, but given that I approve of most of the EU's green-leaning, centre-left standpoints, I would have liked to see trade deals hammered out under their aegis. The third driver is more of a reactive one: It genuinely wouldn't be hyperbolic to say there's a crypto-fascist bent to some players pushing for UK independence, an unfortunate strand of racism more broadly amongst some of the proponents, and some generally jingoistic blind-nationalism that just rubs me up the wrong way. If I thought Leave had had a huge amount to recommend it, or a truly compelling case, then I could have held my nose on that. All told though, **** all those strands...

Yeah, and honestly, that's all I was getting at here. My intellectual prior is that centralized power is bad and clear, tight feedback loops between votes and consequences are good. But I'm not too worked up about people who see the pitfalls but ultimately lean the other way. I only bothered replying at all because the sentiment here hasn't been "it's wrong" so much as "it's absurd and no well-meaning person could have voted for it."

Trust me, even the EU's most ardent supporter would say it's deeply inefficient, at times needlessly prescriptive, and almost certainly biting off more than it can chew in terms of migration & accession. And that's before even getting to the Euro (which I'm glad we're not part of ultimately).

For all its many flaws, it still might currently be the best chance for peace this blood-soaked knuckle of land has got though.

[Camo]

Leave have absolutely no idea what we'll do once we leave.

I agree. It is done now, those smart Bremain guys should now focus on what we will do now, right?

he best thing to happen is for the country to collapse so those who voted Leave can see the damage they have done. It's what this country deserves for such a foolish mistake.

What is this *****? Sorry but you sound like a petulant child, i lost so i'm going to break the other kids toys. I know the majority of remain voters over here at least aren't as hysterical as you so thank god.

[gandalf26]

Dalek has been trolling all day.

[Camo]

Sounded like sour grapes to me. He loves his country so much that when the vote doesn't go his way he wants the country to burn?

He was retiring at the next election and was being pushed out by his party as well. I'm not convinced that this was some i don't represent the country thing, maybe a my party won't survive the next election with me as their leader, something Corbyn should do tbh as much as i personally like him. Think the Osbourne/Boris challenges started coming up in 2013/14 before the last election even.

[seanc]

My decision to vote Remain was based on how well we as a nation have coped under the EU for many years and how those voting for Leave have absolutely no idea what we'll do once we leave. Now Leave as won, the best thing to happen is for the country to collapse so those who voted Leave can see the damage they have done. It's what this country deserves for such a foolish mistake.

Rush Limbaugh, is that you?


I'm getting an education in ths thread today. Embarrassed at how little I know. Had to google Brexit when I started reading this morning.

[neiba]

Some things shouldn't be voted on a referendum. There's a study that states that if the death penalty was voted in UK, the YES would win. The Brexit is one of those things.
Many people who voted yesterday for the out had no idea of what the implications would be. They voted out of fear and racism, which is only natural to happen after what's been happening in France and Belgium. But that's why politicians have to know better. They should know that decisions made out of fear are never good.
The far right movements grow everyday. France, Sweeden, Italy and Netherlands have already announced one way or the other a similar referendum. Today Europe and the World took one more step towards fascism.

As for the rest of the EU, the leaders have to start thinking more about the people and less about if a country is 0,5% short on his debt. We regroup or we disappear. Simple as that.

[Citizen Rules]

He was retiring at the next election and was being pushed out by his party as well. I'm not convinced that this was some i don't represent the country thing, maybe a my party won't survive the next election with me as their leader, something Corbyn should do tbh as much as i personally like him. Think the Osbourne/Boris challenges started coming up in 2013/14 before the last election even.Sounded like sour grapes to me. He loves his country so much that when the vote doesn't go his way he wants the country to burn?

Sorry for a brief post that wasn't clear (I was typing fast), by 'he' I meant Dalekbuster. I should have been more clear.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

The far right movements grow everyday. France, Sweeden, Italy and Netherlands have already announced one way or the other a similar referendum. Today Europe and the World took one more step towards fascism.

So everyone in Europe who isn't a Marxist loon is a fascist? The left are comical.

[Camo]

There's a study that states that if the death penalty was voted in UK, the YES would win.

Could you post this? Not questioning its existence but i'd like to see if it was an actual study or a random poll.

[Camo]

Sorry for a brief post that wasn't clear (I was typing fast), by 'he' I meant Dalekbuster. I should have been more clear.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about David Cameron obviously.

[Tacitus]

I think we need to get some things clear here.

Once we start invoking Nazism, implying people who voted in a certain way are closet racists and general gloating, I'm getting closer to locking this thread.

[Golgot]

Oi boss, I only said 'some' ;)

[neiba]

Could you post this? Not questioning its existence but i'd like to see if it was an actual study or a random poll.

I'll try to find it. John Oliver mentioned it some months ago. I think it was more of a poll but that had the goal to show how would the people choose if they were let to.

[neiba]

So everyone in Europe who isn't a Marxist loon is a fascist? The left are comical.

So, everyone who's pro UE and against anti-immigration lows is a Marxist loon? The right are comical.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

Does this referendum mean that Britain has been spared an American style toilet fiasco? Because I identify as a transsexual grizzly bear with a third nipple.

[Camo]

I'll try to find it. John Oliver mentioned it some months ago. I think it was more of a poll but that had the goal to show how would the people choose if they were let to.

Have you actually seen the poll or are you saying you heard John Oliver mention it and just assumed it was real and accurately represented?

[Thursday Next]

Pretty sure that the EU has nothing to do with toilets. Grizzly bears are not native to the UK and definitely won't be given a visa.

[seanc]

I always got the inpression from the other political threads that the UK wasn't as divided and hostile as the US and they didn't have the economic problems we do. I think I was under the wrong impression.

[gandalf26]

Some things shouldn't be voted on a referendum. There's a study that states that if the death penalty was voted in UK, the YES would win. The Brexit is one of those things.
Many people who voted yesterday for the out had no idea of what the implications would be. They voted out of fear and racism, which is only natural to happen after what's been happening in France and Belgium. But that's why politicians have to know better. They should know that decisions made out of fear are never good.
The far right movements grow everyday. France, Sweeden, Italy and Netherlands have already announced one way or the other a similar referendum. Today Europe and the World took one more step towards fascism.

As for the rest of the EU, the leaders have to start thinking more about the people and less about if a country is 0,5% short on his debt. We regroup or we disappear. Simple as that.

Uggghhh

Such a terrible post on so many levels.

Wanting controlled immigration is nothing to do with Racism.

[banality]

Some things shouldn't be voted on a referendum. There's a study that states that if the death penalty was voted in UK, the YES would win. The Brexit is one of those things.
Many people who voted yesterday for the out had no idea of what the implications would be. They voted out of fear and racism, which is only natural to happen after what's been happening in France and Belgium. But that's why politicians have to know better. They should know that decisions made out of fear are never good.
The far right movements grow everyday. France, Sweeden, Italy and Netherlands have already announced one way or the other a similar referendum. Today Europe and the World took one more step towards fascism.

As for the rest of the EU, the leaders have to start thinking more about the people and less about if a country is 0,5% short on his debt. We regroup or we disappear. Simple as that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5A5Mb__fiA

[banality]

I always got the inpression from the other political threads that the UK wasn't as divided and hostile as the US and they didn't have the economic problems we do. I think I was under the wrong impression.

America is the greatest country in the world, Sean

[neiba]

Have you actually seen the poll or are you saying you heard John Oliver mention it and just assumed it was real and accurately represented?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32061822

[Camo]

So, everyone who's pro UE and against anti-immigration lows is a Marxist loon? The right are comical.

Just don't respond to stuff like that please. I think you from Portugal, along with Tacitus, Christine, Golgot, Gandalf, CiCi, Rodent and HK (sorry if i missed anyone) are the people i want to talk about this with. Some people are looking for reactions, especially when you see what he posted in the shoutbox after Jo Cox's death.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

America is the greatest country in the world, Sean
Yeah, Sean. Just think, 50 more years of mass immigration and Britain could have been like America - irrevocably bastardised.

[neiba]

Uggghhh

Such a terrible post on so many levels.

Wanting controlled immigration is nothing to do with Racism.

I didn't say they were the same. Everyone wants controlled immigration. I'm all for it. It's the anti-Muslim message that has been spreading through Europe that I'm completey against.

[Camo]

I always got the inpression from the other political threads that the UK wasn't as divided and hostile as the US and they didn't have the economic problems we do. I think I was under the wrong impression.

I think certain areas kind of get absorbed by whatever party here, it becomes a thing in your constituency to vote Tory or Labour or Green, etc. The first election i ever voted in i went Labour and helped campaign for them (never again) against a heavily Lib Dem Constituency, it was weird and notable that i was voting Labour. Since then i've moved out of that area and my new area just has no interest in voting, it has pretty much been the norm from the general election on with young people in my area not bothering to vote.

[seanc]

I think certain areas kind of get absorbed by whatever party here, it becomes a thing in your constituency to vote Tory or Labour or Green, etc. The first election i ever voted in i went Labour and helped campaign for them (never again) against a heavily Lib Dem Constituency, it was weird and notable that i was voting Labour. Since then i've moved out of that area and my new area just has no interest in voting, it has pretty much been the norm from the general election on with young people in my area not bothering to vote.

Do you mean you would never campaign again or just not for that party?

[Camo]

Do you mean you would never campaign again or just not for that party?

Not as actively as i did then. The Labour Party is the only non Monster raving Loony Party.. Party that i have agreed with quite a bit. So it is a strong Labour Party or bust for me now.

[honeykid]

Think the Osbourne/Boris challenges started coming up in 2013/14 before the last election even.
Don't forget Theresa May. I think she's the dark horse in this one, although, if Gove decided to vote, I think he'd be a strong contender. Probably the lead contender.


But that's why politicians have to know better. They should know that decisions made out of fear are never good.

I'd argue that Cameron made the decision for a referendum out of fear.

[Camo]

I'd pick Gove over May, Osbourne or Boris personally.

[neiba]

I'd argue that Cameron made the decision for a referendum out of fear.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't this a promise he made before the immigration crisis?

[Golgot]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't this a promise he made before the immigration crisis?

Before the refugee crisis, but it was a reaction to the looming electoral gains of UKIP on the immigration card, and a sop to the 40% eurosceptic wing of his party. He thought they were heading for another coalition and he'd never have to enact it as the Libs would block it. Many, many poor calls there.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

https://youtu.be/xhoR5HC3ceY

He voted leave...I'm just winding you all up..I've had a session on the beer today while celebrating. I hope you can see the funny side.. :laugh:

[christine]

Before the refugee crisis, but it was a reaction to the looming electoral gains of UKIP on the immigration card, and a sop to the 40% eurosceptic wing of his party. He thought they were heading for another coalition and he'd never have to enact it as tbe Libs would block it. Many, many poor calls there.

This is exact and what me and HK have said a few times. Cameron took that chance and made the wrong call. If he would've had the country's future in mind instead of his own party's then he would've stood his ground, then he would've still been in his job and we would've not been in this position

[honeykid]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't this a promise he made before the immigration crisis?

No. The immigration crisis has been ongoing for a few years. He made this promise in response to the gains that Ukip (UK Independence Party) were making. Euro-sceptic Tories voters were moving to Ukip (as were Labour to a lesser degree) and there had been MP defections to Ukip from the Tories, too.

I think I've said this before here, but Cameron made this promise before the last General Election as an attempt to make back some ground on Ukip and, more importantly, stop more voters moving their vote. As well as to try and quieten the large number of Tory Euro-sceptics, both in Parliament and at the grass root level.

Ukip had made large gains in the previous few years, especially in European elections and he had no comeback to their claims about immigration. He even made a unfathomable promise to cut net migration to the tens of thousands which, even if you took out all the EU net migration figures, would still mean he'd have to more than half the numbers. Of course, inside the EU he couldn't cut any of the EU numbers, making the whole thing impossible from the start.

I've felt for many years now that Cameron was one of those people who became what he'd always been told he would be, but didn't actually want to be. You know? Like those people who're told from a young age they'd be a doctor or a soldier or something and they go along with it because it's all they've known. At some point they realise it's not actually what they want (or don't want it anymore) but don't know how to stop and be someone else or disappoint their family.

I think he'll be happier in the years to come, but any legacy he might've hoped to've left has been totally destroyed. Whether that was to have a kinder, more caring Conservative Party (not in the foreseeable future unless a leadership candidate comes out of nowhere ala Corbyn) or even as a minor but, ultimately, forgettable PM who did his bit. Now he'll always be the PM who took the UK out of the EU. Even if that turns out to be a good/great/decent thing, he'll be the PM who tried to keep us in. He can't win. :D

[honeykid]

I see Christine and Golgot said it in far fewer words. :D

[Golgot]

I liked the wordy version ;)

[christine]

Disenfranchise everyone over 50.

Oh great :rolleyes:

[Gatsby]

https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13516418_10153542667792461_3369496843630527864_n.jpg?oh=96b9e94a48685561ba46026f265d61b8&oe=5801E847
Here are some more Brexit memes;

http://i.imgur.com/A2hpF4e.png
http://i.imgur.com/ff1fTP7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jwSysU8.jpg

[honeykid]

I liked the wordy version ;)

Thank you. :)

[christine]

I liked the wordy version ;)

I liked it too. Far more eloquent and understanding in a very English way, not like some of the silliness I've just read

[christine]

Anyway I've just been at the Community Centre winning the quiz,( :D ) and arguing with some people who voted leave, so enough is enough!

[Camo]

This is exact and what me and HK have said a few times. Cameron took that chance and made the wrong call. If he would've had the country's future in mind instead of his own party's then he would've stood his ground, then he would've still been in his job and we would've not been in this position

In fairness to David as much as i despise him, i really don't think a tory leader has went against his own party as much as he did. I don't think Corbyn has went against Labour even though it is his bread and butter, the main reason he was elected, has went against his on party as much as David Cameron did. Since he has been leader i mean obviously.

I think Corbyn is pretty pathetic and that he has easily gave up on all of these great truths that got him elected in the first place. I think that he loved being a back bencher able to criticize the guys running the party and now he doesn't have a clue what to do, I'd vote Winnie The Pooh before him tbh, Nice guy though.

Yvette or Liz should have won.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

I'm going to bed. I'll leave you with this.

https://youtu.be/cRj01LShXN8

[Cobpyth]

I'm actually pretty confident this moment will be looked back at in a few decades as a positive move in British political history.

In a short time, the UK will be at the steering wheel again. If it chooses its future leaders (relatively) wisely, I'm actually convinced that things will be better for the UK than they would've been within the EU.

Yes, the first few years will be much tougher than they would've been if "REMAIN" had won (the numbers that came out right after the results speak for themselves), but I believe the regained independence and sovereignty will make the UK better armed against future global crises of any kind (especially economically).

A lot of the fear that the REMAIN camp is now feeling, is in my opinion based on easily refutable assumptions and implications that were made during the campaign.

I expect that the EU will continue to feed that fear for quite some time to discourage other nations from leaving it (they already began doing this, by the way), but my optimistic self believes that their fear-mongering will eventually stop and make place for much needed revisions and changes of the current European system (i.e. decentralize it immensely).

I'll finish with referring to something I said earlier in this thread:

I think I'd probably vote "LEAVE" as a UK citizen. As a Belgian, I hope "REMAIN" wins, though.

As a Belgian, I'm a bit saddened, but as a Brit, I would be proud.
This vote doesn't mean you've suddenly become isolated from the rest of the world or even the rest of Europe. It just means that a larger part of the power is back in the hands of your country.

[honeykid]

I think Corbyn is pretty pathetic and that he has easily gave up on all of these great truths that got him elected in the first place. I think that he loved being a back bencher able to criticize the guys running the party and now he doesn't have a clue what to do, I'd vote Winnie The Pooh before him tbh, Nice guy though.

Yvette or Liz should have won.
I actually like(d) Liz Kendall. That's who I'd have voted for. There again, I wouldn't join the Labour Party for a bet. :D

Corbyn is a pub politician. Great on a bar stool. Wonderful with the rhetoric and the theory, but not a real world politician in a national sense. Let alone an international one. And never a leader. Poor bloke didn't even want to be part of the debate and only went up as a nominal 'We are the left and we still have a voice' candidate. Never expected to win. Even people who nominated him didn't vote for him (the now London Mayor, for one) because he was only ever meant to be a reminder. Someone to try and keep the more centre left politicians (Yvette, Liz, Andy) honest. At least acknowledging the grass roots. If it forced them into a few concessions, great.

But he won and look at him since. Now he has to be the leader of a national party. The Opposition. He can barely answer any question about being a leader without coming up against his past. I thought he did the best he could as a Remain politician (which as the leader of the current Labour party he, pretty much, had to be despite 40 years of being and voting against it) by keeping his head down, but when he did finally step up to the plate in the last couple of weeks, he kept coming up against that pesky past of his again. Even in full PR mode he could only say he was 7/10 in favour of Remaining because being 10/10 would've made him look like the politicians he was voted for not being. That is, someone who said what needed to be said or thought should be said to get the job done. He was given the job by people because of his principles. Principles that he's been unable to stand behind as leader. Even as leader of the Opposition. Without any power in his hands he's been unable to say what he really thinks.

I'm sure I'd love him as my local MP, though. At that level, I'd think he's very good indeed.

I agree that we'll be fine, Cob. I'm just saddened that a kinder, more integrated kind of politics fell to a more national, xenophobic one. I do think more integration will be better for us as a species and blurring national borders is something of a start to all that.

But we are an island nation. It's in our nature. The only surprise to me was that Leave won with such a large turnout. I really thought pretty much anything over 60% would be a Remain win. That a 72% turnout gave Leave the win, however narrow, really is surprising to me.

[CiCi]

I'd pick Gove over May, Osbourne or Boris personally.

Oh dear, no!

I don't like any of them, but I'd probably choose May. Gove would be the last one I pick (unless Nicky Morgan runs like she plans to, I loathe her).

[Golgot]

In a short time, the UK will be at the steering wheel again. If it chooses its future leaders (relatively) wisely, I'm actually convinced that things will be better for the UK than they would've been within the EU.

Unfortunately this vote has given the keys of the country to a more extreme end of the right wing government, a wing that doesn't necessarily have a mandate. There is currently no coherent opposition. We also have a rogue racist ideologue running about the political landscape plotting his next step having triggered this event. Things might be turn out rosy, but it's gonna be fairly ****ing messy in the interim.

Also, PS, the UK is about to disintegrate. Scotland are leaving first and foremost, and have every right to do so. But hey ho.

Yes, the first few years will be much tougher than they would've been if "REMAIN" had won (the numbers that came out right after the results speak for themselves), but I believe the regained independence and sovereignty will make the UK better armed against future global crises of any kind (especially economically).

It's certainly possible, but we'd kept most of our economic autonomy already. This has been about immigration for the UK. The question is what do the dual issues of immigration, and a single-currency that has a punitive effect on smaller countries during a recession, do next?

A lot of the fear that the REMAIN camp is now feeling, is in my opinion based on easily refutable assumptions and implications that were made during the campaign.

Tatty's fear of border restrictions between Northern Ireland and Ireland, for example, is entirely valid. My in-laws feelings of being unwanted in their adopted country are genuine fears. The nationalistic racism that has grown alongside the genuine complaints about immigration seems very real indeed.

This vote doesn't mean you've suddenly become isolated from the rest of the world or even the rest of Europe. It just means that a larger part of the power is back in the hands of your country.

True that. Let's hope we use it wisely :)

[Golgot]

http://i.imgur.com/8WCrqEG.png

Genius (http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2016/06/24/brexit-demographic-divide-eu-referendum-results/)

*EDIT*

Here's the pre-vote version (http://www.cer.org.uk/insights/brexiting-yourself-foot-why-britains-eurosceptic-regions-have-most-lose-eu-withdrawal), featuring more regional info.

http://i.imgur.com/QITqO6r.jpg

Doesn't mean that this trade will dry up, but irony exports are gonna be at an all time high if there are any bumps in the road :/

[Golgot]

The fun times ahead may well be the breaking up and shaking of things.

In the meantime, there's this:

Has Article 50 been invoked yet? (http://hasarticle50beeninvoked.uk/)

(Some colour:
Brexit won the vote, but for now we remain in the EU (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/brexit-won-vote-remain-eu-article-50-lisbon-treaty-referendum-david-cameron)
Article 50 and the start of a political stalemate (https://next.ft.com/content/3073daed-7458-38ed-826b-5b6d1dc81dad)
Why we may remain even if we vote Leave (http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-why-we-may-remain-even-if-we-vote-leave-a3272621.html))

I bid you good night ;)

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I'm actually pretty confident this moment will be looked back at in a few decades as a positive move in British political history.
Definitely not.

In a short time, the UK will be at the steering wheel again. If it chooses its future leaders (relatively) wisely, I'm actually convinced that things will be better for the UK than they would've been within the EU.
Problem is, there are no potential strong leaders at the moment. Jeremy Corbyn is weird, Boris Johnson is evil, Michael Gove is an idiot, George Osbourne is an even bigger idiot and Tim Farron is just forgettable compared to Nick Clegg (who actually spoke some sense).

Yes, the first few years will be much tougher than they would've been if "REMAIN" had won (the numbers that came out right after the results speak for themselves), but I believe the regained independence and sovereignty will make the UK better armed against future global crises of any kind (especially economically).
Definitely not. Less voices = less power. We need more people to help, not less - especially when the terrorists realise how vulnerable we've made ourselves and attack.

[QUOTEA lot of the fear that the REMAIN camp is now feeling, is in my opinion based on easily refutable assumptions and implications that were made during the campaign. [/QUOTE]
The leave camp are making many more assumptions that somehow we'll be 'better' outside the EU even though we won't be because the EU provides a lot of stability. It has worked for the UK for a lot of years; changing it now is the stupidest move in our country's history.

[ashdoc]

Real Brexit

https://scontent.fbom1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13516220_10210148568373736_645738213153593472_n.jpg?oh=5ea2e5343feec7465cf6f51c2fc64268&oe=57F34327

[Camo]

The leave camp are making many more assumptions that somehow we'll be 'better' outside the EU even though we won't be because the EU provides a lot of stability. It has worked for the UK for a lot of years; changing it now is the stupidest move in our country's history.

Yet you can't explain why it is the stupidest move in our country's history at the multiple chances you've had to do so. I'm sorry i voted remain and was strongly for it but this is getting ridiculous, we lost accept it and try to make the best of this situation.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Yet you can't explain why it is the stupidest move in our country's history at the multiple chances you've had to do so.

Better to be safe and secure rather than heading into unknown territory.

[Chypmunk]

So change is apparently scarier than daleks .... :shrug:

[The Rodent]

Is this still going? The referendum is soooo yesterday's news.

[Camo]

Better to be safe and secure rather than heading into unknown territory.

You should write vague party slogans that don't tell anyone anything but sound cool.

[Omnizoa]

I intended to leave the thread, but...

Better to be safe and secure rather than heading into unknown territory.So change is apparently scarier than daleks .... :shrug:
Isn't it the older generation that gets accused of being set in it's ways, and yet we're not even crediting them with taking back a decision they made?

This evasive, ageist, nonspecifically absolutist, fearmongering knee-jerk fatalism is so far beyond ridiculous it comes across as diehard contrarianism.

And if you're just gonna do that, there's no point talking to you.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

So change is apparently scarier than daleks .... :shrug:

It is when nobody has a plan of what we're going to do. There was actually a plan in place for remaining in - the existing plan we'd already been using!

[The Rodent]

This evasive, ageist, nonspecifically absolutist, fearmongering knee-jerk fatalism is so far beyond ridiculous it comes across as diehard contrarianism.

And if you're just gonna do that, there's no point talking to you.

This is a signature banner quotation if ever I saw one.

[Camo]

It is when nobody has a plan of what we're going to do. There was actually a plan in place for remaining in - the existing plan we'd already been using!

And... we have decided as a nation otherwise. What now? How much do you think your we have no hope, those brexit guys are idiots, rhetoric is helping anything? Move on, we have to figure out what is next rather than cry about our preferred outcome not happening.

[christine]

I actually like(d) Liz Kendall. That's who I'd have voted for. There again, I wouldn't join the Labour Party for a bet. :D

Corbyn is a pub politician. Great on a bar stool. Wonderful with the rhetoric and the theory, but not a real world politician in a national sense. Let alone an international one. A nd never a leader. Poor bloke didn't even want to be part of the debate and only went up as a nominal 'We are the left and we still have a voice' candidate. Never expected to win. Even people who nominated him didn't vote for him (the now London Mayor, for one) because he was only ever meant to be a reminder. Someone to try and keep the more centre left politicians (Yvette, Liz, Andy) honest. At least acknowledging the grass roots. If it forced them into a few concessions, great.

But he won and look at him since. Now he has to be the leader of a national party. The Opposition. He can barely answer any question about being a leader without coming up against his past. I thought he did the best he could as a Remain politician (which as the leader of the current Labour party he, pretty much, had to be despite 40 years of being and voting against it) by keeping his head down, but when he did finally step up to the plate in the last couple of weeks, he kept coming up against that pesky past of his again. Even in full PR mode he could only say he was 7/10 in favour of Remaining because being 10/10 would've made him look like the politicians he was voted for not being. That is, someone who said what needed to be said or thought should be said to get the job done. He was given the job by people because of his principles. Principles that he's been unable to stand behind as leader. Even as leader of the Opposition. Without any power in his hands he's been unable to say what he really thinks.

I'm sure I'd love him as my local MP, though. At that level, I'd think he's very good indeed.

I agree that we'll be fine, Cob. [b]I'm just saddened that a kinder, more integrated kind of politics fell to a more national, xenophobic one. I do think more integration will be better for us as a species and blurring national borders is something of a start to all that.[\b]

But we are an island nation. It's in our nature. The only surprise to me was that Leave won with such a large turnout. I really thought pretty much anything over 60% would be a Remain win. That a 72% turnout gave Leave the win, however narrow, really is surprising to me.

This. My thoughts summed up without having to type. Specially agree wholeheartedly with the emboldened bit.
I'm imagining that some people voted to leave entirely on immigration issues without giving a toss (or even understanding or trying to understand) about the wider economic issues, and that's sad.

I voted for Andy Burnham at the Labour election. I think he is a much more empathetic politician than Corbyn. I like Jeremy, I really do but he's an intellectual like Foot, he doesn't have the leadership qualities needed, or even the presence.

[Omnizoa]

This is a signature banner quotation if ever I saw one.
It's that or paranoia.

[Camo]

I'm imagining that some people voted to leave entirely on immigration issues without giving a toss (or even understanding or trying to understand) about the wider economic issues, and that's sad.


I think that is a fair comment. All the same i think plenty of remain voters weren't considering the economic issues. I'm not going to lie despite voting otherwise i hate the way exit voters are being painted, i don't think remain voters as a whole were these super informed bastions of hope. I think both sides made their decisions on what they felt was right as a whole, no doubt some racists on the exit side as well as some far left nutjobs on the remain side. i just think we should accept what happened and move on, i think i'm to aware of how i'd be reacting to pissed off exit supporters to do so myself.

Only up to "economic issues" of this post was toward you Christine, the rest is just more of my reaction to this fallout.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

And... we have decided as a nation otherwise. What now? How much do you think your we have no hope, those brexit guys are idiots, rhetoric is helping anything?

It isn't. But how much has voting leave helped anything either? We need a plan in place first before we can move on from anywhere.

[Golgot]

There weren't many Brexiters pre-vote that I could get along with, but Mason was one of them:

A plan for 'ProgExit' (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/britain-rainy-fascist-island-progrexit-brexit)

Can't say that proportional representation fills me with glee right now though, even in a post-Scotland scenario. I just see too many UKIP gains.

[Camo]

It isn't. But how much has voting leave helped anything either? We need a plan in place first before we can move on from anywhere.

Exactly. Lets work together and come up with the best plan for us as a nation. I'm not stupid enough to believe this will actually happen but that is what should be happening instead of calling the majority of voters idiots and saying that this is the end of the world.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Exactly. Lets work together and come up with the best plan for us as a nation.

That should have happened before the referendum, not after.

[CosmicRunaway]

Business owners in my city are afraid that the Brexit vote will hurt their shrimp exports (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/nl-brexit-market-1.3651824). Apparently it's the UK that buys most of said shrimp, and without Britain providing support during trade negotiations with the EU, they're worried that my province's proposed zero percent tariff on shrimp sold to the EU will not go through and thus hurt sales.

At first I thought it sounded silly, but our province is currently undergoing a financial crisis due to the low cost of oil, so I can see why people would be worried about shrimp. It's weird because it's another example of people being afraid of this:

Therefore, we'll be less influential because how can a smaller economy dictate terms to bigger ones
Though if the EU has no interest in Newfoundland shrimp, it might be a valid concern. If the deal went through, there might be more customers in Europe willing to buy, but if the deal doesn't go through, then we need to hope Britain will at least want to negotiate a similar deal so our sales there don't plummet as well.

[Camo]

That should have happened before the referendum, not after.

It didn't. So now what? Should we sit in fear and wait for the world to end while insulting the other side, or should we move on and work towards the best result? It's your choice man.

Damn, i'm sounding like Braveheart or something in this thread :laugh:

[Cobpyth]

Unfortunately this vote has given the keys of the country to a more extreme end of the right wing government, a wing that doesn't necessarily have a mandate. There is currently no coherent opposition.

I don't think things will be that different from the current conservative government if Boris ends up as the next PM and people can hate him as much as they want, but I think he'll actually do a pretty good job when it comes to making the UK both more autonomous, while still keeping the most important deals and partnerships with the EU in place. You can hate him for a lot of reasons, but I do think he's a politician who's able to build bridges (even while other bridges are being torn down).

We also have a rogue racist ideologue running about the political landscape plotting his next step having triggered this event. Things might be turn out rosy, but it's gonna be fairly ****ing messy in the interim.

I don't think Farrage will be strenghtened by this Brexit. I actually think it will do the opposite. If the conservatives did one thing right strategically, it was delivering the leaders of both the REMAIN and the LEAVE camp (with Cameron and Johnson). It made sure this didn't become "Farrage's win" in the public perception.

Also, PS, the UK is about to disintegrate. Scotland are leaving first and foremost, and have every right to do so. But hey ho.

IF that happens, we'll have to see what the consequences of that decision are. I don't think it would be a wise move on Scotland's side, though, because the connections between Scotland and the rest of the UK are entirely different than the connections between the UK and the EU.

Tatty's fear of border restrictions between Northern Ireland and Ireland, for example, is entirely valid. My in-laws feelings of being unwanted in their adopted country are genuine fears. The nationalistic racism that has grown alongside the genuine complaints about immigration seems very real indeed.

The first one is a valid fear, but again, I think it has been overstated. There won't suddenly come a Berlin wall between Northern Ireland and Ireland or something. Maybe there will be a little more restrictions, but I don't think it will affect the average Northern Irish citizen that strongly.

The issue of racism is of course one that strikes a lot of immigrant families throughout Europe. The Brexit shouldn't necessarily be viewed as a "racist" decision, though. I realize that it is partly kind of a decision against multiculturalism, but I don't think it means that now suddenly the majority of the country is against any form of immigration. It just means the UK wanted to tackle that issue without any huge pressure coming from a higher (European) authority.

True that. Let's hope we use it wisely :)

I definitely hope so as well! I'm a huge fan of the UK and have been there many times (Scotland, Wales, almost every interesting part of England...). It's a great country! I hope the perception of this Brexit will change to a belief in the potential opportunities this regained independence has in store, instead of the fearful perception that's still being promoted today.

Definitely not. Less voices = less power. We need more people to help, not less - especially when the terrorists realise how vulnerable we've made ourselves and attack.

Completely nonsensical. The UK now has a bigger voice, instead of a smaller one, which does make them more powerful again. This isn't about more or less voices.

The leave camp are making many more assumptions that somehow we'll be 'better' outside the EU even though we won't be because the EU provides a lot of stability. It has worked for the UK for a lot of years; changing it now is the stupidest move in our country's history.

Name one logical reason why the UK won't be better off outside the EU in the long term and I'll refute it.

[Golgot]

I don't think things will be that different from the current conservative government if Boris ends up as the next PM and people can hate him as much as they want, but I think he'll actually do a pretty good job when it comes to making the UK both more autonomous, while still keeping the most important deals and partnerships with the EU in place. You can hate him for a lot of reasons, but I do think he's a politician who's able to build bridges (even while other bridges are being torn down).

It's not Boris that I'd have a problem with. It's the cabinet and power blocks he'd have to draw on, and indeed whoever becomes the incumbent. All the Redwoods of this world, and worse, are going to be crowding back around the table. And that's before any potential alliance with UKIP, especially at the initial UK general election we can now expect.

I don't think Farrage will be strenghtened by this Brexit. I actually think it will do the opposite. If the conservatives did one thing right strategically, it was delivering the leaders of both the REMAIN and the LEAVE camp (with Cameron and Johnson). It made sure this didn't become "Farrage's win" in the public perception.

Have you seen Boris's reaction? He didn't even want the vote to get over the line, it seems pretty clear. This is Farage's win.

It becomes about who gets their hands on the tiller, that's for sure.

IF that happens, we'll have to see what the consequences of that decision are. I don't think it would be a wise move on Scotland's side, though, because the connections between Scotland and the rest of the UK are entirely different than the connections between the UK and the EU.

I think you underestimate the ingrained divisions in this region. They are old and keenly felt. The SNP will certainly look to leave. Ireland is in a delicate state of peace.

The issue of racism is of course one that strikes a lot of immigrant families throughout Europe. The Brexit shouldn't necessarily be viewed as a "racist" decision, though. I realize that it is partly kind of a decision against multiculturalism, but I don't think it means that now suddenly the majority of the country is against any form of immigration. It just means the UK wanted to tackle that issue without any huge pressure coming from a higher (European) authority.

Yep, immigration will continue, no doubts. But some racist factions have certainly been emboldened by this vote.

I definitely hope so as well! I'm a huge fan of the UK and have been there many times (Scotland, Wales, almost every interesting part of England...). It's a great country! I hope the perception of this Brexit will change to a belief in the potential opportunities this regained independence has in store, instead of the fearful perception that's still being promoted today.

I do concur. Many good things could come from it. Staving off some of the worst potentials (from my perspective) is liable to get pretty damn feisty though.

But hey, shaking things up can certainly be a good thing. We'll see how we can guide the pieces back together.

[Camo]

I've been wondering has there ever been a case here of a PM not having a Deputy other than Cameron after the Election? I'm not sure i've really understood why that is, all i've heard is that Osborne is his overall #2 while still sticking to the Chancellor position. I don't even know if it is something notable, maybe it is the norm, but i've just found it really odd and thought possibly the reports of his support and Cabinet falling apart had some truth to them because of this.

[Golgot]

Without wishing to inject any more venom into the day, the 'force for ill' results here are fascinating.

http://i.imgur.com/hmht0Vm.jpg

As is the rest of the latest Ashcroft poll (http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746).

[Camo]

Curious where they polled and who exactly. I don't know, i never really trust polls whether they are saying something i agree with or not because i know you can make sure you get the results you are looking for.

A majority of those who backed the Conservative in 2015 voted to leave the EU (58%), as did more than 19 out of 20 UKIP supporters.

This didn't surprise me but cracked me up nevertheless :laugh:.

[CiCi]

I'm dying to see the latest general election polls after this, because Labour and the Tories seem to be falling a part, and UKIP have outlived their purpose now.

[CiCi]

Curious where they polled and who exactly. I don't know, i never really trust polls whether they are saying something i agree with or not because i know you can make sure you get the results you are looking for.



This didn't surprise me but cracked me up nevertheless :laugh:.

I am never trusting polls ever again. They have been completely wrong regarding the Scottish referendum, the general election, and now this, and all by a considerable degree as well :lol:

[Camo]

I am never trusting polls ever again. They have been completely wrong regarding the Scottish referendum, the general election, and now this, and all by a considerable degree as well :lol:

It's because the people conducting them are biased themselves. if you want something to look negative and racist, poll people coming out of a BNP shindig, if you want to create the picture that Labour is winning poll a majority Labour town. I only trust the ones that explain where and who they polled.

[Golgot]

I am never trusting polls ever again. They have been completely wrong regarding the Scottish referendum, the general election, and now this, and all by a considerable degree as well :lol:

This one is at least the retroactive kind, so more reliable ;)

Curious where they polled and who exactly. I don't know, i never really trust polls whether they are saying something i agree with or not because i know you can make sure you get the results you are looking for.

Yeah doesn't seem to have a full methodology, but Ashcroft is very much a known entity (although with a Tory past and a known hatred for Cameron ;)). From the data tables (http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/How-the-UK-voted-Full-tables-1.pdf) at the bottom though you can see there were 12k+ respondents, with postal voters queried on the 21st & 22nd, and voters on the 23rd. Normal practice with 'online fieldwork' would be to canvas nationwide, and with these numbers it seems safe to assume here. (We can see results for all major demographics, and specific entries for English & Scottish responses for example).

*EDIT* Actually you can see the regional breakdown (http://imgur.com/sXbKpa3) in the data tables too.

This didn't surprise me but cracked me up nevertheless :laugh:.

Yeah that made me laugh too, but then I realised their UKIP affiliation was based on their 2015 election vote. It represents some minor UKIP slippage rather than endearing eccentricity ;)

[DalekbusterScreen5]

It didn't.

Which is why this result was daft.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I think he'll actually do a pretty good job when it comes to making the UK both more autonomous, while still keeping the most important deals and partnerships with the EU in place.
I'll quote you on that next year if he becomes PM. Boris Johnson is our Donald Trump.


Completely nonsensical. The UK now has a bigger voice, instead of a smaller one, which does make them more powerful again. This isn't about more or less voices.
Nah, we're just a tiny country with no say anymore on EU laws.

[Camo]

Which is why this result was daft.

Repeating it over and over again and calling a majority of the voters in this country idiots will make things better i'm sure. I think this is just ridiculously unproductive and sad that this seems to be the majority reaction.

[honeykid]

I've been wondering has there ever been a case here of a PM not having a Deputy other than Cameron after the Election? I'm not sure i've really understood why that is, all i've heard is that Osborne is his overall #2 while still sticking to the Chancellor position. I don't even know if it is something notable, maybe it is the norm, but i've just found it really odd and thought possibly the reports of his support and Cabinet falling apart had some truth to them because of this.
DPM is a very new thing. There's only been 8 or 9, I think. I think Atlee was the first during the coalition during WWII. I think most of them have come since Thatcher re-introduced it in 1979 and I think the last three have merely been a bribe. A position given to a problem (politician) whose voice is rarely heard but is wheeled out from time to time. The last three being Heseltine, Prescott and Clegg all of whom were there to appeal to the 'problem' side of the party/government.

[honeykid]

I'll quote you on that next year if he becomes PM. Boris Johnson is our Donald Trump.
I wonder why you think it's the case?

[DalekbusterScreen5]

I wonder why you think it's the case?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-is-like-donald-trump-with-a-thesaurus-claims-nick-clegg-a7062651.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2016/06/boris_johnson_britains_donald.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/donald-trump-praises-beautiful-brexit-and-says-boris-johnson-wil/

He was even mistaken for Mr Trump!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson/12200562/Boris-Johnson-I-was-mistaken-for-Donald-Trump.html

[honeykid]

So in a really superficial, lazy journalism way as I expected.

[Sexy Celebrity]

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26052&stc=1&d=1466881355

Just noticed the new European: label added to this thread and another Europe themed thread.

Will things like the Movie Countdown threads ('90s/'80s/'70s/'60s/Documentaries) be getting an Asian: label before their titles?

[Tacitus]

Soo, Hilary Benn has been pushed, Heidi Alexander's jumped and more are set to follow.

It struck me during the Referendum night coverage, before the result even became clear, that Benn was looking rather, for want of a better word, presidential. He seems a good man, but he's not his da. ;)

If any new Labour leadership contest has the same quality of field as the old one Jezza would surely win, or would his utter lack of any leadership skill taint him even among his supporters? I'd want Chuka in the race.

[christine]

It's hard to know that Tatty. Corbyn is still very popular amongst the young Labour supporters. My daughter in law is horrified at people turning against him as she sees him as being truthful and best representing their views.
I wonder the real reasons why Chuka pulled out last time? I think he sited media pressures on his family which wouldn't change the second time around, but was he being more wily and biding his time for the 2020 election?

Spend a wry but hilarious time watching interviews with people who voted to leave and didn't understand that actually that meant we would leave...

[christine]

and the Chilcot report is out on 9th July. 2.6 million words long :eek:

[Chypmunk]

and the Chilcot report is out on 9th July. 2.6 million words long :eek:
I have it on good authority that circa 74k of those are "the" and 14k "destruction" though so might not be quite as daunting a read as it sounds ;)

[christine]

Hmm...Nicola Sturgeon says Scotland could veto UK Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

[Tacitus]

It's hard to know that Tatty. Corbyn is still very popular amongst the young Labour supporters. My daughter in law is horrified at people turning against him as she sees him as being truthful and best representing their views.
I wonder the real reasons why Chuka pulled out last time? I think he sited media pressures on his family which wouldn't change the second time around, but was he being more wily and biding his time for the 2020 election?

Spend a wry but hilarious time watching interviews with people who voted to leave and didn't understand that actually that meant we would leave...

When he pulled out last time I was expecting a skeleton or two to come tumbling out of the closet, but they never came. My guess that he figured it was better to follow the first man to try and pick up the pieces of the general election, than be the one to pick up the pieces himself.

My problem with the trend amongst some to support the 'non-political' politician is that when there's actually some politicking to be done, well, they're no good at it.

I've got members of my family who are staunchly pro-Corbyn as well and nothing can persuade them otherwise. It's getting towards personality cult territory.

As a lifelong Labour supporter, member and activist he's shown me nothing.

[honeykid]

Spend a wry but hilarious time watching interviews with people who voted to leave and didn't understand that actually that meant we would leave...

Since Friday morning you've known that over the coming year or so there'd be a hell of a lot people who'd feel they were lied to or betrayed by the Leave campaign.

[christine]

As a lifelong Labour supporter, member and activist he's shown me nothing.

Me neither. It's hard to see someone as a leader of the country when they even can't lead their own party.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

Hmm...Nicola Sturgeon says Scotland could veto UK Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

I hope she does. We need the EU.

[CiCi]

There's no chance she'll be able to do that, the country would be in uproar if she was successful. It'll be interesting to see how things develop in Scotland though, I don't think the independence movement there is as strong as she'd like it to be, she isn't forcing this to Westminster, which surprises me a bit.
It's also nice to not hear a peep from UKIP :D they're becoming irrelevant far quicker than I expected.

[honeykid]

I can't see that they'll be able to do that, either. It was a UK decision and, as much as she doesn't like it, I wouldn't expect any of the individual counties to need to cede anything to it.

Ukip will be around until the next election at least. Personally I don't expect them to go anywhere. They'll probably just become a nationalist political party. Like it or not, they have an MP and plenty of EMP's and councillors/Assembly personnel. This is their job, it's what they do. I'd expect most of them to continue that. They could join other parties, but I think that's unrealistic for most of them.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

My parents think our country's decision to leave the EU is going to result in World War 3. Now I'm a fierce keyboard warrior for remaining in the EU but even I find it hard to believe that leaving it is going to result in an all-out war.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

There's no chance she'll be able to do that, the country would be in uproar if she was successful.

The country's going to be in uproar anyway. Do we really want angry scotsmen gunning after England?

[honeykid]

How would that be any different to before the referendum?

[CiCi]

The country's going to be in uproar anyway. Do we really want angry scotsmen gunning after England?

They won't because it currently looks as though Scotland would rather be a part of the UK than the EU based on the few interviews I've seen in addition to Sturgeon's seeming reluctance to take it any further right now.
Additionally, it appears as though they'll be rejected another referendum until at least exit negotiations have been completed, they'll be angry anyway like Honey said.

[DalekbusterScreen5]

They won't because it currently looks as though Scotland would rather be a part of the UK than the EU based on the few interviews I've seen in addition to Sturgeon's seeming reluctance to take it any further right now.
Additionally, it appears as though they'll be rejected another referendum until at least exit negotiations have been completed, they'll be angry anyway like Honey said.

All the more reason for them to veto leaving the EU now.

[christine]

Good job the Euro footy is on as a distraction cos if you think about it too hard - brexit, Labour Party infighting, Tories in turmoil, enough to make you cry. UK what have you done?!

[gandalf26]

My parents think our country's decision to leave the EU is going to result in World War 3. Now I'm a fierce keyboard warrior for remaining in the EU but even I find it hard to believe that leaving it is going to result in an all-out war.

0.00001 chance of this happening.

[CiCi]

All the more reason for the SNP to leave, perhaps. But not the entirety of Scotland.

And I've rarely agreed with you regarding all of this, Gandalf, but I agree that this will not result in World War 3. Maybe a bit of friction, but not worldwide warfare.