Lost (Possible Spoilers)

[Pyro Tramp]

Ok, here's my answer, Yoda. The Island was important because the 'light' in the cave was the same light behind the door's Christian opened. That's why it had to be protected so the light was there to take them to the after life.

There's some nice points here http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2010/05/beginning-end-and-all-that-in-between.html and read his comments as well.

[Uncle Rico]

I think I get what you're trying to say now. The stakes don't matter as much when we know that "they all are together in the afterlife". And I understand how seeing that play out undermines the initial struggle. For me though, I'm alright with that, and I liked seeing the characters get the peace they deserved after spending a good deal of time on the crazy mystery island of death. I agree with still being critical as with every episode, I'm sorry if my earlier posts made it seem otherwise, I was just really really happy with the finale.

The more I think of it, I'm convinced that if the show would have ended after the first season, the Island itself would have been "purgatory". Things like Jack seeing his Dad, Kate her Horse, Sawyer's Boar. All of those were creepy signs from the past they needed to get over and "let go" of that would not have happened on a regular old Island. But hey, the show went on and I think they had no choice but to change it so that the island itself wasn't "purgatory".

[will.15]

Ok, here's my answer, Yoda. The Island was important because the 'light' in the cave was the same light behind the door's Christian opened. That's why it had to be protected so the light was there to take them to the after life.

There's some nice points here http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2010/05/beginning-end-and-all-that-in-between.html and read his comments as well.
That's pretty good, if that's what they wrote, but it isn't. You should have been at their story comferences and told them that, and maybe they could have wriitten a coherent ending using that.

[will.15]

Using Pyro Tramp's light theory, how about this? When they open the door and go through it, they find themselves back on the island.

[Sedai]

Ok, here's my answer, Yoda. The Island was important because the 'light' in the cave was the same light behind the door's Christian opened. That's why it had to be protected so the light was there to take them to the after life.

There's some nice points here http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2010/05/beginning-end-and-all-that-in-between.html and read his comments as well.

Um, HELLOOOOOOOOOO

This seems painfully obvious to me now that I think about it...how did we not think of this beforehand?

Signed
A Jack Ass

Sometimes I read one line on this site and **** just CLICKS.

Good work Pyro...

That puts the island front and center again, unless Chris can disprove, which he might be able to do...he's savvy like that.

[Powdered Water]

Sigh... Another good show comes to an end.

I haven't checked in here in awhile because, frankly, I get bummed out when a good show nears its end and I actually haven't even been watching it for the last two months or so... so I could stock up on the eppys and watch them after it was finished.

Well, I finished it last night by staying up way past my bedtime, which does say something for how engaged I was by the last seven or so episodes and I wasn't entirely displeased by the ending. It was just OK I guess.

It just seems so weird to me to actually have an ending I suppose. This show all throughout its entire run prided itself on rarely answering questions and then to get an answer at the end that appeared to be so "happy" for most of the losties involved did ring a little shallow to me as well. And for cryin' out loud if they didn't throw in a few more questions to boot as they hurry out the door that they will never answer now. Maybe that means its just a great show. I don't know.

Anyway, I read back through about three pages of this thread and pretty much agree with all of you (Seds, TUS, AUS and Yoder) on all of your praises and gripes and really don't have much more to add at this point.

Sure am going to miss The Island though.

[Austruck]

Okay, I am sitting here this evening replaying/rewatching the last four episodes of the series -- since I need to dump them onto DVD and free up space on our DVR.

I have just discovered why my gut reaction to that final ten minutes was so visceral (and I admit it was)... Knowing this smarmy ending is really ruining this series' re-watch value. I'm sitting here feeling as if all the intense thriller-type drama means nothing. I'm not worried if anyone gets shot or killed or stabbed or beat up. Because, hey, they all die and end up blissfully happy anyway.

I don't seem to care what happens to Flocke. I reeeeally had trouble sitting through the "Across the Sea" episode where we get the story of Jacob and MiB and their "mother." Wow -- that whole episode seemed fascinating at the time but now it seems entirely POINTLESS.

And, before you ask, yes, I've rewatched shows before, so I know the difference between knowing the ending and still enjoying the ride ... and this feeling right now as I rewatch these final episodes. It's just not the same.

----

Here's one more short thought from the writer in the crowd: A good writer knows where to START a story, what parts to KEEP IN the story along the way, what parts to LEAVE OUT ... and where to END it. You almost never end a story with "and everybody dies, as all people do, and they go to heaven and are happy." That's really not why people read stories or watch movies or shows... not to see the ultimate ending that comes to all of us, unless that was entirely the point all along (like, a movie about death).

I think the writers DEFINITELY knew where to start this story and they knew what to leave in and what to leave out. It's always been brilliant at all those things. But I just don't think they really knew the best spot -- from a storytelling angle -- to end it.

[Austruck]

blibby posted a cool YouTube link elsewhere online that I MUST repost here. (Where are ya, blib?) It's a very well done split-screen of the opening scene in the pilot episode -- running BACKWARDS -- and the final dying scene in the bamboo forest, running forward.

Apparently they shot that final scene almost frame-for-frame to match up with the opening scene in the pilot, only in reverse. Right down to Vincent showing up, which I had forgotten about in the pilot episode. It's very cool and very impressive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7CJ_2K-1E&feature=autofb

[Austruck]

A few more stray thoughts here and there:

-- Yoda, you asked about whether Ben was double-crossing MiB in the last episodes. I rewatched a few, and it's clear that he WAS siding with MiB when he shot Widmore. He truly was -- because MiB promised to let him rule the island after he left. But as soon as he found out that MiB was LITERALLY going to destroy the island (while they were standing around the well looking for Desmond), his loyalty left MiB and reverted back to the Good Guys. It's much clearer on a second watching of those two final episodes.

-- So, people can "die" in purgatory? Because we do see a LOT of people dying here and there. How does that work, exactly, and what does it mean? Probably nothing, but it struck me as odd upon rewatching things knowing the ending.

-- Why is Juliet going to the afterlife with Sawyer? Yes, I know she spent a few years with him in Dharmaville circa 1977-ish ... but what about her SISTER and her nephew? That was such a HUGE emotional pull for her (it was gut-wrenching to watch her begging Ben to leave the island over and over again), and I can't imagine she wouldn't have wanted her sister there with her. Just one of those curious things ....

Upon rewatching a handful of the season 6 episodes yesterday, I found myself extremely curious to watch CLOSELY all the flash-sideways scenes. The hints are ALL there, and now they seem so blatantly obvious that it was a lot of fun to see how many of them there are! It was strange to feel so very curious about those FS scenes ... and to have so little interest in all the island scenes now. That is opposite of how I felt through most of season 6! Crazy....

[Pyro Tramp]

Re: death in purgatory. The only way i can see David's existence explained is that he was a construct from Jack's subconscious, much like Helen was to Locke. If i remember she would not have wanted to spend her life with him. Likewise, Cooper being vegetated, Locke always blamed himself for being duped by him etc and this a way of his guilt manifesting itself and Cooper being unable to con him. So the death or just of the ancillary characters are just constructs the characters have created from memories to fill in the roles needed to help them 'let go'. Obviously Sun and Jin had very small ties to Keamy and Mikhail, which is why I think the writers misdirection is pretty shameful. Also explains the Island being underwater, Ben's obsession of it is what corrupted him and why he killed his Dad etc so he willed it away.

The only issue is, we're led to believe the people in the Church were the group that 'willed' this meeting place and their connections that were important and made the 'place' exsist. Yet, this brings questions as to where Eloise got this connection and why she was part of this 'place'. As she apparently wasn't a construct due to her personal desire to stay. Unless the place exists for just anyone who'd been on the Island. Which then negates the answer of people dying in it.

As for Juliet, maybe that was substituted by having a son there. She must have somehow wanted/needed a son.

After Sayid and Shannon's hook up, one thing i would like to take note of whilst rewatching is whether the MiB's promises, like 'see your loved one again' etc are what actually comes true in the 'place'.

[Sedai]

...That's really not why people read stories or watch movies or shows... not to see the ultimate ending that comes to all of us, unless that was entirely the point all along (like, a movie about death).


Right...and Lost IS ultimately about death, so this fits just fine in this instance. :) Looks like it works, after all! :D

[Austruck]

Right...and Lost IS ultimately about death, so this fits just fine in this instance. :) Looks like it works, after all! :D
No no no.... nice try, Seds! :)

Just because they tacked on an ending saying everyone died doesn't mean the show was "ultimately about death." No more so than any thriller or adventure show where people do coincidentally die along the way. ;)

[Sedai]

Sorry, but, if they did indeed use JJ Abrams original ending, which they state they did (according to a writer from the show), then the show has always been about death. Even if they originally had the island itself as purgatory, then changed things up as they discovered the show had legs, the show was still always about the transition to the afterlife, because that was the intent of the show's main creator, JJ Abrams.

This issue has already been put to rest, yes?

[Yoda]

Got some more interesting thoughts on themes and parallels in the finale, and I owe a couple people replies, but for now, on the issue of the show's theme and death:

We could just as easily say that the show is about love, since that's what propelled almost all of the castaways to remember their lives. Or we could say it's about death, since they all die and have to come to grips with it. Or we could say it's about life, since they're still alive in the afterlife and have to live their lives over to move on. Or we could say it's about redemption, because pretty much every flippin' character is redeemed in some way.

I don't think we can say the ending is perfectly consistent simply because it involves death, because no one word encompasses this show, and if it does, there are five others that encompass it just as well.

It's kind of academic, anyway, isn't it? You can have a show that starts off about death and ends up about death, but that doesn't mean that, because of those thematic bookends, everything in-between is necessarily consistent or intelligible.

[will.15]

It's a crappy way to end a long running series. For a move or a short running series it may have been okay. The problem with using an ending that was devised when the show began, it is well known they never had a carefully planned map to get there. In my opinion the direction the show took made the ending seem tacked on and didn't flow naturally from the events we were watching.

[Pyro Tramp]

Does anyone watch Ashes to Ashes btw? That's a 3 (technically 5) series show that ended last Friday as well. The endings were VERY similar, makes an interesting comparison.

[will.15]

Haven't watched it, but just read about it. That's real close. But it sounds like they had their ending better integrated into the series. Lost was about so many things and went in so many different directions, an ending like that just doesn't seem right. Ashes to Ashes really was focused on one character and that makes a difference.

[Uncle Rico]

It's kind of academic, anyway, isn't it? You can have a show that starts off about death and ends up about death, but that doesn't mean that, because of those thematic bookends, everything in-between is necessarily consistent or intelligible.

This is the part where i give some forgiveness to the writers. It's a t.v. show, and a complicated one at that. I think once the writers knew everyone had figured it out, they sidestepped a lot, and maybe even considered a completely different ending. But I think they ultimatley decided to keep the ending that they started with, in some capacity. That being said, I think thats where my satisfaction comes from. It made the story feel full to me because it ended where it began, both literally and thematically.

I think if they always knew that it would be the "FOR SURE NO CHANGES NO QUESTIONS" ending, they could have crafted the middle of the story to more fittingly line up with the beginning and the end. But i think there was a little bit of indecision where they may have thought "ok well we'll start gearing the show more towards the sci-fi audience since everyone already guessed our faith based ending". And that goes back to the turning point in the middle of season 3. I think that was when they realized "alright that won't work, lets get back to our original ending somehow".

[Sedai]

I don't think the issue is whether it can be perceived as being about something else, but that it clearly fits the "about death" paradigm as well, therefore it falls well under the umbrella of stories that are ultimately about death. My comment was in direct response to Austruck saying

"...That's really not why people read stories or watch movies or shows... not to see the ultimate ending that comes to all of us, unless that was entirely the point all along (like, a movie about death)"

...and I feel that yes, that was one of the major points all along, especially if the island itself was originally intended to be synonymous with Purgatory. I also disagree with Austruck's comment on a general level, in that she can't really make a claim about why people watch anything - she can only make a claim that she doesn't watch stuff for those reason.

Also - Purgatory is the wrong term, or this would be a Catholic show. Not sure what to call it, but I guess Altiverse or Flash Sideways works for our purposes.

For instance, I definitely have been watching films of that exact nature over the past couple of months, due to the death of my sister.

Which is always why I may seem a bit snippy at times. ;)

Sorry if this is the case...

[christine]

Does anyone watch Ashes to Ashes btw? That's a 3 (technically 5) series show that ended last Friday as well. The endings were VERY similar, makes an interesting comparison.

I said that too!

[TheUsualSuspect]

...Jack never said the magic words to give Hurley the protector role.

LOST doesn't make sense anymore!!!!!!

[Powdered Water]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[will.15]

What Hurly was really chosen to protect:
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae244/willedelman/cafe-e-side-by-side-refrigerator-2.jpghttp://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae244/willedelman/hurley_lost.jpg

[Pyro Tramp]

Hurley, is like... a cork. And inside him is all the.... fridge contents. It's this you must protect

[Sedai]

Hate to see how it all escapes Hurley...

Look out below!

[Pyro Tramp]

Thought this would have been posted by now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggE4ImYwyc

[christine]

Thought this would have been posted by now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggE4ImYwyc

Loved that Pyro. Thanks :)

[Equilibrium]

I know I'm late to the party here...in fact I know some of you might not even remember me...but for what its worth I do drop in sometimes...and sometimes specifically to look over this thread. I got into lost about 5 years ago (Season 1 was out on Dvd and season 2 was in mid-stroke) I watched the entire first season and half of season 2 in exactly 40 hours. Eating only when I needed to and taking a short nap here and there...I knew I was addicted from the start and it wasnt because of the story or because of any thing else except for the fact that I really felt like I was getting to know those characters intimately. It's like being able to peer into people's deepest darkest secrets and still loving them for it.

There's so much more that I'd like to write but I'll post that tomorrow because its midnight already and the burden of med school never lets up (part of the reason I don't post as much any more). But suffice it to say, at least until tomorrow, that this show has taught me more about myself than any other movie/book/show/biography or what have you. In the past 5 years a lot has happened to me and Lost was to me, like it was to many others, the perfect escape. The one night during the week where I could really sit back and let my inner mind and imagination go to work. The one time I could watch characters that I loved and cared for live their life. This show was my crutch. I'm so sad to see it go. I watched the finale last night and I teared up, and I honestly was not ready to say goodbye. But the show teaches us an important lesson that must be followed especially now: you've got to learn to let go.


A less emotional post tomorrow, I promise. Complete with why I think the ending is actually brilliant, how I think everything fits, and a few remaining questions that I still have (like what the hell did whidmore want with the Island?)

[Sedai]

Who can forget you, Spid3y?

Good to see you back around!

And I agree - Brilliant stuff.

[Jammo]

It's amazing how after soooo long Hurley is still big...
ANYWAY
I was still left confused by the ending episode, it was okay... but it just didn't answer all the questions that I still had about the stuff that happened EVEN in the first few episodes. What was with that polar bear in like the first or second episode? I still don't know... and I will forever be lost with Lost.

[Austruck]

The polar bears were explained around season 3. They were brought to the island by the Dharma Initiative (originally in cages on the other island nearby) for experimentation. These are the same cages we saw Sawyer and Kate locked up in -- which is right about when and how we found out about the polar bears and how they got there.

[Austruck]

Equi ... I assume Widmore wanted the island either for its curiosity factor (much as Dharma was studying it to try to harness its properties -- a desire that goes back as far as the MiB telling Jacob he and the other smart guys were figuring out how to get to the light pocket underneath by digging various wells)...

...OR he just wanted the power that came with protecting the island or being near that light or whatever. I guess I assumed there would be plenty of reasons to WANT the secrets of the island, which is why there needs to be someone protecting it at all times from people a lot like him (and his freighter people).

[Equilibrium]

But whidmore was originally an "other" He was banished for wanting to protect the island was he not? Also what exactly is the island capable of doing? The light doesnt seem to be doing much of anything except attracting metal objects...turning the wheel moves the island (though we dont know how or why) and MiB thinks that he could harness the power in order to leave..(again this is never explained).

[Equilibrium]

Who can forget you, Spid3y?

Good to see you back around!

And I agree - Brilliant stuff.


Thanks buddy ;)

[Powdered Water]

I think he wanted to live forever like Richard.

[jrs]

Carlton Cuse Talks About ABC’s Intention To Keep The LOST Franchise Alive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeqvHB6cemo


CARLTON CUSE: Most of these things are very narrative driven for us and it’s a hard thing to try to articulate specifically when we want the audience to understand that every small little niggling question will be impossible to answer watching the show. Our goals as storyteller were to tackle the big questions and try to bring the story to a satisfactory resolution. But if you’re wondering who’s the guy is, etc, you’re not gonna get that answer in the series. The story we were telling in Lost, we planned to end on May 23rd, we have no plan to do any kind of sequel or spin off, anything. We set out to tell the story of the most significant thing that happened. Telling the story was our ability to negotiate with ABC in the 3rd season of the show. Now we’re bringing the story that we plan to tell to a conclusion. Now that said, we’ve also acknowledged that we’re not the owners of Lost. It is owned by the Walt Disney company and it is an incredibly valuable franchise. Worth billions as opposed to millions of dollars. And we completely understand that the Disney company will choose to continue to make money under the Lost franchise at some future point…

[will.15]

Translation of above: " Lost the Motion Picture"

[Uncle Rico]

Regardless of any sequel/spinoff Disney attempts to make in the future, I'm not too worried about the integrity of the original series being compromised. I think anyone familiar with the show, and its rabid fan base, is aware of the expectations that go along with it.

That being said, I would not be opposed to new Lost material, as long as it does not focus around the 815ers. References here and there, or a few throwback moments are fine, but I agree with Carlton, that story is finished.
That does bring to question where the story could really go from there though.

The feeling of mystery would be gone if the story were to pick up where Ben and Hurley left off (I don't think that would happen though, in light of the epilogue on the DVD). So, the real question is: How do you create more mystery? It seems like any new Lost story would have to either take place before Jacob and MIb, or after Hurley and Ben. I suppose the Dharma story could be taken somewhere further, so long as the main focus was on the intention and experiments of the initiative, and not the Island itself.

Then there's always the idea of having anything new to Lost be a re-imagining more so than a spin off or continuation. Not a re-imagining of the 815 story, maybe just a complete overhaul. Example: No Island, different characters, different mysteries, but the same question "where are we?". That has the potential to be interesting, but also has the potential to fall flat on it's face if new writers were to screw up.

To me though, no movie or show is sacred. A bad sequel doesn't ruin an original like a lot of people seem to say. So I will have an open mind for any new Lost. If it's good, awesome. If not, I'd just shrug my shoulders and say "oh well".

[TheUsualSuspect]

But whidmore was originally an "other" He was banished for wanting to protect the island was he not? Also what exactly is the island capable of doing? The light doesnt seem to be doing much of anything except attracting metal objects...turning the wheel moves the island (though we dont know how or why) and MiB thinks that he could harness the power in order to leave..(again this is never explained).

He was banished from BEN, a guy who never met Jacob and did everything in his own agenda. Widmore and Ben were always butting heads, but Ben got the upper hand.

Turning the wheel makes the island unstuck in time. The wheel was put in the harness the power of the golden pond or whatever and the person who moves it is transported off the island and into Tunisia. This is evident from Ben and Locke. So it seems that MIB wanted to turn the wheel and be transported as well.

The polar bears were used for experiments in the Hydra cages. But IMO they were also used by the D.I. to turn the wheel to see what it would do. Remember when we got the flashback stories of the Freighter folks and Charlotte was in Tunisia and she found polar bear skeletons with the DI symbol attached?

[Powdered Water]

Pretty impressive memory muscle you have there TUS. I don't recall that at all. I will be on the lookout for it the next time I watch the series however.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Thanks P-Dub, I tend to remember a lot of things from my favourite TV shows (Buffy, Arrested Development, Seinfeld).

ASK ME ANYTHING!!!!! :p

[Harry Lime]

Now that I've seen season 6 I'll just add this little note: That's it? I waited six years for that? Okay then.

[Fiscal]

Lost was always character driven, but I think Lost fans fall into two different categories, people who care more about the characters and people who care more about the mythology. I think I belong to the later. The smoke monster, Jacob, the Dharma Inititave, the island, etc.

I feel that they did a great job wrapping up the characters, there was a lot of emotional closure - and I loved it in that sense, but so much was simply neglected on the mythos side. I think that over time I will probably accept and maybe even like the ending, after all it was a great show that provided me with years of entertainment.

[will.15]

I don't think Lost was character driven at all because the characters never shaped the drama. Having complex characters in a story isn't the same as a charcter driven story.

[Fiscal]

I don't know, I think Lost was more than a mysterious island with complex characters. The writers and producers have all admitted that characters came first and mythology second.

[Fiscal]

With everything that happened in the final season, what bugged me most was probably FLocke leading up to the escape spouting:

We're gonna get on that plane!
We're gonna get on that plane!
We're gonna get on that plane!

Then in the finale:
Hey, we need to get on that plane!
Locke: F*ck that, I've got a boat!

[Sedai]

Disagree. What would have been bad is if the show became mired in a bunch of reveals for tiny details that had emerged during the shows run. Also, of the things you mentioned, like Dharma - this stuff WAS solved and revealed already. Dharma, Polar Bears, the unique matter pockets...stuff like that. All of it got explained as much as it needed to be. I mean really, if the final episode focused on a bunch of minutiae instead of the core themes of the characters journey, it would have been terrible.

I still see people (not you) wondering stuff like "But why did the statue have 4 toes"

Easy - It was the statue of Tawaret, the Egyptian Hippo Goddess - Hippos have 4 toes. No mystery here. Not saying you missed this particular point, but I still see a ton of people mystified about stuff like Tawaret and the Polar bears, which definitely got solved.

I like the fact that they left some of the more nebulous details alone so folks might go out an read Valis (a book Ben was reading in "Egg Town") or perhaps study up on Egyptian mythology. The best stories inspire people to learn/know more instead of attempting to encapsulate every small detail, IMO.

[Fiscal]

Disagree. What would have been bad is if the show became mired in a bunch of reveals for tiny details that had emerged during the shows run. Also, of the things you mentioned, like Dharma - this stuff WAS solved and revealed already. Dharma, Polar Bears, the unique matter pockets...stuff like that. All of it got explained as much as it needed to be. I mean really, if the final episode focused on a bunch of minutiae instead of the core themes of the characters journey, it would have been terrible.

The things I mentioned aren't things that I felt wen't unsolved necessarily, they are just the things that I enjoyed the most in the series.

[Bloodas]

With everything that happened in the final season, what bugged me most was probably FLocke leading up to the escape spouting:

We're gonna get on that plane!
We're gonna get on that plane!
We're gonna get on that plane!

Then in the finale:
Hey, we need to get on that plane!
Locke: F*ck that, I've got a boat!

i think you didnt understand :)
Flocke was lying about getting on the plane. He was planned get losties on the plane, without him. He wanna go on the boat from the start. He was manipulate them.

[Austruck]

I don't know, I think Lost was more than a mysterious island with complex characters. The writers and producers have all admitted that characters came first and mythology second.
I'm not sure what the producers admit makes it true. They can try to convince us it was character-driven all they want, but if it was the mythology and the crazy plot twists that kept people posting on the internet like mad fools for years, then it wasn't REALLY character-driven, was it?

And will.15 is right here: There's a difference between having strong characters and having a character-driven story. I write mostly character-driven fiction (as opposed to actions, thrillers, mysteries, etc.). Lost was not a character-driven show. It was a plot/mythology-driven show, with amazingly good characters (since so many heavy-plotted shows have two-dimensional characters).

And only part of THAT was the writing. I think much of our love for the characters was the spot-on casting and the amazing acting of virtually everyone in the cast.

But if it were the same amazing characters and great acting -- in a normal world with nothing crazy happening -- I doubt there would be Lost wikis floating all over the Web universe and coming out everyone's ears.

[Fiscal]

Good point, I can see that ;)

[planet news]

I'm not sure what the producers admit makes it true. They can try to convince us it was character-driven all they want, but if it was the mythology and the crazy plot twists that kept people posting on the internet like mad fools for years, then it wasn't REALLY character-driven, was it?

And will.15 is right here: There's a difference between having strong characters and having a character-driven story. I write mostly character-driven fiction (as opposed to actions, thrillers, mysteries, etc.). Lost was not a character-driven show. It was a plot/mythology-driven show, with amazingly good characters (since so many heavy-plotted shows have two-dimensional characters).

And only part of THAT was the writing. I think much of our love for the characters was the spot-on casting and the amazing acting of virtually everyone in the cast.

But if it were the same amazing characters and great acting -- in a normal world with nothing crazy happening -- I doubt there would be Lost wikis floating all over the Web universe and coming out everyone's ears.Thank you O voice of reason.

I'm so over this show. But that night felt terrible, I'll tell ya. What a load of garbage.

[LuDiNaToR]

Hey guys ive re-watched the last series of lost over the past few days and just a quick question.

We see Kate and Sawyer got of the island on the plane so ime assuming that they died a long time after jack because in the flash she says she has missed him so much, so why havn't they aged in the church?, why is everyone how jack remembered them if its not about just him moving on?? and why is Aaron a baby?

[Yoda]

Well, the idea of the "place" they created in the afterlife is that they were able to do so together because the most important part of their lives was on the Island. In the spirit of that, they're all in the same state/age/whatever they were when that took place.

[LuDiNaToR]

Well, the idea of the "place" they created in the afterlife is that they were able to do so together because the most important part of their lives was on the Island. In the spirit of that, they're all in the same state/age/whatever they were when that took place.

thanks yoda, if i create a place when i die it will be for my family and friends not a bunch of people of a island hahah.

[Yoda]

Ha. Well, that part did make sense to me. Not the idea of being able to create places in the afterlife without really trying, but the idea that it was the most important part of their lives. Almost all of them had family problems and ended up forming stronger bonds on the Island than they ever had off of it. And they were all broken, and in some ways fixed themselves, while there.

I guess the fact that you'd have lots of family and friends there is also the reason you'd never be dragged to the Island by Jacob in the first place. :)

[LuDiNaToR]

Ha. Well, that part did make sense to me. Not the idea of being able to create places in the afterlife without really trying, but the idea that it was the most important part of their lives. Almost all of them had family problems and ended up forming stronger bonds on the Island than they ever had off of it. And they were all broken, and in some ways fixed themselves, while there.

I guess the fact that you'd have lots of family and friends there is also the reason you'd never be dragged to the Island by Jacob in the first place. :)

see in a way when i think about it the ending was great, its just all the crazy stuff on the island that was real that was a problem. Guese i was more interested in the island, which was why i was annoyed with the ending at first.

[Yoda]

:laugh: I think it's safe to declare an ending a disappointment when the best way to make it work is to change the entire series leading up to it. But I know what you mean. It was far more emotionally than intellectually satisfying.

[Austruck]

Lud, that's always been my beef with the ending of Lost -- that we spend nearly six whole seasons so wrapped up in the plotlines and intertwinings of real life on the island, only to be told, like a children's fairy tale, that they all lived/died happily ever afterlife.

I've rewatched the entire six seasons since it first ended, and I still come to the same conclusion. Oh sure, a lot of the flash-sideways stuff now makes a ton of sense, and all the clues were there, I think, but I don't like it any better. I still felt the second time through as if the actual events on the island and its crazy traits were FAR more interesting than the silly ending implied.

Honestly, that ending could apply to any close-knit group of people -- so why even bother telling us a story about that crazy island and all its mysteries for six years of our lives?

Don't get me started. LOL

[Sedai]

I'm a big fan of the show, but I can't say the ending was great. It was decent, but my interest falls more with the subtext of the show and the influences the creators injected into the narrative. I also really like the characters.

When you think about what Dharma was - its failures, consequences and target philosophy, I think there is some compelling stuff there, as well. There is so much to like and think about in the show, and unfortunately some stuff to dislike. I think the good outweighs the bad though, for me.

[Austruck]

Ehh, I dunno, Yoda. If making me tear up means it was emotionally satisfying, then sure, I'd agree. But honestly, YouTube videos of puppies can do that to me too. :D

If they wanted to just totally wrap up the series by making sure we knew everyone had DIED (and there couldn't therefore be sequels or made-for-TV movies later), then I'd say the HBO series "Six Feet Under" did a FAR FAR better job of wrapping up its characters. Now THAT was an emotionally satisfying ending ... plus, of course, it totally fit with the whole main gist of the show being about death and dying.

[Austruck]

Seds, I agree -- I came away from my second view-through (watching episodes back to back) with a general idea that there was FAR FAR more good than "bad" in the series. The ending still bothered me, but not as much.

I suppose the first time through, we were all SO well-trained to watch "Lost" while looking for clues, answers to crazy questions, and mysteries to solve that the ending had an impossible task ahead of it -- to satisfy such plot-hungry fans.

All in all, a great series... especially for non-cable-broadcast TV.

[LuDiNaToR]

Lud, that's always been my beef with the ending of Lost -- that we spend nearly six whole seasons so wrapped up in the plotlines and intertwinings of real life on the island, only to be told, like a children's fairy tale, that they all lived/died happily ever afterlife.

I've rewatched the entire six seasons since it first ended, and I still come to the same conclusion. Oh sure, a lot of the flash-sideways stuff now makes a ton of sense, and all the clues were there, I think, but I don't like it any better. I still felt the second time through as if the actual events on the island and its crazy traits were FAR more interesting than the silly ending implied.

Honestly, that ending could apply to any close-knit group of people -- so why even bother telling us a story about that crazy island and all its mysteries for six years of our lives?

Don't get me started. LOL


haha thats exacley it, thats how i feel. The island is real life with crazy stuff happening all the time, crazy events, time traveling, monsters, a fairy tale as you put it then out of knowhere they go all serious with a serious ending, a emotional ending and ignore what i liked about lost in the beginning the island. I dont care that ending wasn't done from the start and if it was everything from series 2-5, they didn't know what they where doing lol.

[Sedai]

Right, but that show didn't attempt to mix basically every school of thought known to man into a giant melting pot of mystery. Ive gotten a ton out my Lost experience even if I just consider all the fun conversations I got into in regards to the show and its philosophies. That right there makes it worth it, to me.

I hate to coin a cliche (again), but i'll mix it up a bit and use some old Rush lyrics to make the point...

"From the point of ignition, to the final drive
the point of a journey, is not to arrive..."

I got a ton out of the show on the way to the finale, and that wasn't tarnished much by the fact that the end fell short of what I hoping for.

[Yoda]

I got a ton out of the show, too, but I couldn't contradict anyone who felt like they were at an Easter Egg hunt for six years and then were told the reason they didn't find anything was because there weren't any eggs to begin with.

The old saw about the journey being the destination in and of itself works in lots of places. The main place it applies -- life itself -- it works because at the end of the process you're a better person for it. Which means you still have a "payoff" of sorts. So it's a little different, for me.

But I definitely take solace in the idea that the enjoyment of anticipation I had still "exists" in the past, so to speak, and can only be somewhat mitigated by its failure to culminate.

[Austruck]

True, Seds, and I too came away from "Lost" with an overwhelmingly positive feeling. (Lud brought up the ending again, so I'm talking more about that here in this thread right now.)

But, looking back over the crazy ride we all had, I think their ending kinda takes the oomph out of a lot of those fun conversations and takes the spell off a bit too, because they're essentially saying that the plot didn't matter -- the characters mattered.

Fair enough in some respects, but the plot DID matter to us, for six years. Those crazy, fun conversations were usually brought on by plot twists and island traits and not by character development. To gut the effect of that crazy, wonderful plot in the last episode did the ride a bit of a disservice.

But upon a second viewing, certainly not enough to take away the fun and awe at watching the entire series. It's still an amazing achievement, and I'll likely start a third go-round sometime semi-soon. I can say that about very few TV series... so I think you and I agree on our overall impressions of the series.

I was merely focusing on the ending right now because Lud brought it up. :)

[LuDiNaToR]

I got a ton out of the show, too, but I couldn't contradict anyone who felt like they were at an Easter Egg hunt for six years and then were told the reason they didn't find anything was because there weren't any eggs to begin with.



Great way of putting it. I used to sit watching lost trying to remember every detail, every little twist and turn to then be told at the end..... oh yeah that stuff you watched, all the crazy crap on the island, didnt really matter lol.

[Sedai]

Seds, I agree -- I came away from my second view-through (watching episodes back to back) with a general idea that there was FAR FAR more good than "bad" in the series. The ending still bothered me, but not as much.

I suppose the first time through, we were all SO well-trained to watch "Lost" while looking for clues, answers to crazy questions, and mysteries to solve that the ending had an impossible task ahead of it -- to satisfy such plot-hungry fans.



I can see why PN would hate this show, too. It's basically a post modern pop culture stab at sophomoric philosophy. He must have really gone off the deep end when the finale aired.

I surprised you watched this at all, PN.

[Sedai]

Great way of putting it. I used to sit watching lost trying to remember every detail, every little twist and turn to then be told at the end..... oh yeah that stuff you watched, all the crazy crap on the island, didnt really matter lol.

But it DID matter - that's the point of the group being together in the first place - the island was the most important time of their lives.

[Yoda]

Noooo! It's all starting again! :laugh:

[LuDiNaToR]

But it DID matter - that's the point of the group being together in the first place - the island was the most important time of their lives.

And i agree that works great with the ending, but all that crazy stuff on island didnt need to happen did it.

[Austruck]

Seds, the island was the most important TIME in their lives, but what was with all the crazy plot twists and time travel and such?

Seems the island itself (with all its amazing traits) wasn't the point at all -- and yet we KNOW those writers every season spent most of their time trying to come up with increasingly marvelous and insane plot twists and not amazing and insane character development.

I guess I see your/their point -- but it's such a cliched, trite point in terms of writing that it hardly does the series as a whole any justice.

IMHO. ;)

Again, I am talking about only one episode out of over a hundred -- it's just too bad that it happened to be the final episode. ;)

[Sedai]

Well, I love all those sci-fi conventions, so I was fine with the throwing in of the proverbial kitchen sink when it came to the island. I dunno, it was just sort of pulp-style I guess - some thing just get accepted as part of the story and that's that. A throw back to the superficial style of the 70s, perhaps?

[Sedai]

And I agree that works great with the ending, but all that crazy stuff on island didnt need to happen did it.

Nothing needed to happen, but it was interesting and fun. I think it's bold to throw just about every fantasy/sci-fi and let's not forget, theological convention in the book into one show.

These guys may have winged it the whole time, then reached the end and went "****, we really can't put this ending together in a way that totally works, but here we are!"

I kind of got that idea, but I still loved the trip to get to that point enough to be a bit forgiving. I don;t feel I wasted any of my time because I and my friends got a ton out of it due to what it inspired after the fact (or after certain episodes).

I still like the Star Wars Trilogy, even though the final act was a sing-along with a bunch of ****ing teddy bears. It's kinda like that. :)

[TheUsualSuspect]

3. LOST

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/layden/tv%20shows/lost.jpg?t=1304569988

SPOILERS FOR THE SHOW

Anyone who was watching the show and kept up to date in the LOST thread here had to see this one coming.

I was introduced to LOST through a friend in highschool, the first season was almost over and she was raving about it. I trusted her judgement and decided to watch an episode, I was immediately enthralled with it. So much, that I bought the first season when it came out on DVD, sat down and caught up in like 3 days. I eventually got my entire family hooked on the show and my girlfriend, who watched it from season 2 on and had me filling in some bits that she had no idea about.

No other show has had me so wrapped up in the mystery and mythology that is offered. LOST was a show that was a game changer, not only for me but for television. After every episode I would online and discuss what I had just watched and dissect every little detail with thousands of other fans. Yeah, I was THAT GUY. I stopped doing that after Season 3 when I had the finally spoiled for me. Let me just saw that I was and still am pissed at the fact that it was spoiled for me, so I vowed to stop doing that and I enjoyed the surprises the Season 4-6 had to offer.

Season 1, to me was one of the best seasons. It set up the mysteries, introduced us to the characters and got us all hooked on what the show was going to put us through. What was in the hatch? A debate I and many people had over the course of the summer when it wasn't revealed at the end of season 1. The idea that they weren't the only people on the island was great and the mystery and danger surrounding the OTHERS was present.

More of my thoughts on the show. (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?p=726250)

[Deadite]

They led people to believe that there would be a well-done resolution explaining the reason for it all.

Fail.

[planet news]

Yeah, that's my beef with it.

The work itself didn't necessarily lead to to believe anything but the producers literally said the words "we have an answer". Why say anything like that? Just tell the truth and say that there is no answer.

Nice marketing there Lindelof/Cuse.

[Sedai]

To each their own and all that, but I disagree. The meaning of the island was clearly explained a couple episodes before the finale in an elegant and well-done way using a rather simple but ingenious metaphor. One of the best shows ever made, period.

The producers said what now? I didn't listen to any of that stuff, so maybe that's why the show worked for me. And again, the island was clearly explained - maybe folks missed that scene. I can see people having problems with the theological resolution of the characters, but the island was clearly explained.

#otakufail

[Deadite]

I still enjoy the series though.

[Deadite]

To each their own and all that, but I disagree. The meaning of the island was clearly explained a couple episodes before the finale in an elegant and well-done way using a rather simple but ingenious metaphor. One of the best shows ever made, period.

The producers said what now? I didn't listen to any of that stuff, so maybe that's why the show worked for me. And again, the island was clearly explained - maybe folks missed that scene. I can see people having problems with the theological resolution of the characters, but the island was clearly explained.

#otakufail

Explain it to me.

[planet news]

I ain't talking about the main mystery (what is the island). They did answer that.

I'm talking about the bulk of the mysteries. Big things like what the smoke monster is or how people can travel through time and space like Desmond.

Mainly the time stuff. That seemed like a huge part of the show (a whole season was entirely based on the concept) and it was never even slightly explained. What was its purpose? How did it relate to what the island was?

Nowadays I don't care so much, but I did then, and I was pissed.

Also, the actress that played Jacob's mom pissed me off, because she was horrible.

Also, a bunch of other stuff that I don't even remember anymore, because it wasn't actually important was it?

So why make us think it was and try to come up with theories to explain by bringing it up? Jerks.

[Deadite]

Also, I'd like to point out that the "final act" of Return of the Jedi with the Ewok's celebration was more of an emotional epilogue meant to show the joyous victory of the Rebellion, as well as tie up character subplots. The actual main plot was resolved before that.

Lost, on the other hand, seemed to just go for the easy, play-on-your-emotions, cop-out, without really giving a satisfying ending.

[Deadite]

I ain't talking about the main mystery (what is the island). They did answer that.

I'm talking about the bulk of the mysteries. Big things like what the smoke monster is or how people can travel through time and space like Desmond.

Mainly the time stuff. That seemed like a huge part of the show (a whole season was entirely based on the concept) and it was never even slightly explained. What was its purpose? How did it relate to what the island was?

Nowadays I don't care so much, but I did then, and I was pissed.

Also, the actress that played Jacob's mom pissed me off, because she was horrible.

Also, a bunch of other stuff that I don't even remember anymore, because it wasn't actually important was it?

So why make us think it was and try to come up with theories to explain by bringing it up? Jerks.

In hindsight, it seemed like stuff was just used as dramatic filler to hook the audience without there being solid logic behind it.

[planet news]

I would have been happy if they all died trying to fight off troll-Locke but explained more about the smoke monster and time travel in the process.

The escape scene was just f*cking bad. The troll-Locke fight scene was also a joke.

Show should've ended with the previous season. Then gone on to become legendary like Twin Peaks.

[planet news]

dramatic filler to hook the audiencethat's what's bad about it

[planet news]

i'm suddenly depressed thinking about how much i like dthat show

i used to contribute to the unanswered questions discussions each week on LostPedia. It was loads of fun.

but a waste of time (nah just kidding, not really... it was a nice experience)............

[Deadite]

But I still do like the show. Hmm. I guess the kid in me isn't such a stickler when it comes to pretend games.

[Sedai]

I ain't talking about the main mystery (what is the island). They did answer that.

I'm talking about the bulk of the mysteries. Big things like what the smoke monster is or how people can travel through time and space like Desmond.

Mainly the time stuff. That seemed like a huge part of the show (a whole season was entirely based on the concept) and it was never even slightly explained. What was its purpose? How did it relate to what the island was?

Nowadays I don't care so much, but I did then, and I was pissed.

Also, the actress that played Jacob's mom pissed me off, because she was horrible.

Also, a bunch of other stuff that I don't even remember anymore, because it wasn't actually important was it?

So why make us think it was and try to come up with theories to explain by bringing it up? Jerks.

Fair points, and the Jacob's Mom thing was pretty weak. I definitely have some issues with the final episode arc, so I can't argue TOO much about it, because you guys are pretty much spot on with a lot of the complaints.

I think the time travel was pretty well explained when they explained the Orchid and we watched the tape. You probably have a MUCH more extensive physics knowledge base than I do, so maybe my ignorance there served as a bit of a buffer in suspending my disbelief. I'm not being sarcastic. I may not know enough about actual theoretical time travel theory to know they gaffed that part of the show up. I just bought it and had fun with it. I mean, I've read all the usual suspects like Hawking's books but **** man, some of that stuff is just over my head.

I guess I figured you would dislike it because of the ham-fisted use of many of the philosophies you love so. For me, the use os the material served as an inspiration to look more into it, but since you studied the field in school (still doing so?), I could definitely see you shredding the sort of loosely placed Panopticon concepts etc. I eat that **** up!

I guess I just accept a lot more crap in sci-fi so i can still enjoy the ride...

It's fun to be daft!

I dunno though - would you have enjoyed say, a two-part finale that just went down the line explaining every little detail of the island? Would that have made for a decent ending? I'm not so sure...

[Deadite]

I would have been happy if they all died trying to fight off troll-Locke but explained more about the smoke monster and time travel in the process.

The escape scene was just f*cking bad. The troll-Locke fight scene was also a joke.

Show should've ended with the previous season. Then gone on to become legendary like Twin Peaks.

I sort of feel like Locke was a wasted character. :(

[Sedai]

I would have been happy if they all died trying to fight off troll-Locke but explained more about the smoke monster and time travel in the process.

The escape scene was just f*cking bad. The troll-Locke fight scene was also a joke.

Show should've ended with the previous season. Then gone on to become legendary like Twin Peaks.

I guess I have to agree with this. At the end of season 5 is when I was the most over-the-moon for the show...

[planet news]

But I still do like the show. Hmm. I guess the kid in me isn't such a stickler when it comes to pretend games.I hate the show, and the kid that is me will never let that hatred die.

I had a dakimakura with Kate on it. Not gonna lie.

[Deadite]

I guess I just accept a lot more crap in sci-fi so i can still enjoy the ride...

I resemble that remark.

I dunno though - would you have enjoyed say, a two-part finale that just went down the line explaining every little detail of the island? Would that have made for a decent ending? I'm not so sure...

Guess we'll never knoooooooowwww :D

[Deadite]

I hate the show, and the kid that is me will never let that hatred die.

I had a dakimakura with Kate on it. Not gonna lie.

You are a bitter, bitter man. :p

[Godoggo]

I sort of feel like Locke was a wasted character. :(

Don't know if wasted is what I would use, but I was not happy with the outcome of his character. It's one of the most disappointing elements of the show to me.

[planet news]

You probably have a MUCH more extensive physics knowledge base than I do, so maybe my ignorance there served as a bit of a buffer in suspending my disbelief.Dear god man, I've taken basic mechanics and e&m... :rolleyes: That's as much as pretty much everyone takes. and no one works with time travel but the very top people... and even they don't work on it seriously

I guess I figured you would dislike it because of the ham-fisted use of many of the philosophies you love so. For me, the use os the material served as an inspiration to look more into it, but since you studied the field in school (still doing so?), I could definitely see you shredding the sort of loosely placed Panopticon concepts etc. I eat that **** up!don't know why but I never responded to Lost on a secondary level, because the surface narrative was so dense

apparently that density was just "filler to hook the audience"

I did write something up about it months ago and put it on a blog which I got rid of. Might reread it and post it here now that I think about it....

I dunno though - would you have enjoyed say, a two-part finale that just went down the line explaining every little detail of the island? Would that have made for a decent ending? I'm not so sure...No it wouldn't have been good. I don't really know how it could have been good with the way they structured the whole season. They would have had to start doing stuff from episode one of that season to make it acceptable. Which they didn't at all.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Do people not like mysteries anymore? I thought the time travel stuff was explained sufficiently enough.

I would have like to have seen a bit more on the smoke monster though. There was one scene I REALLY wanted to see, but the show never bothered to go there. It would be Jacob's first encounter with the smoke monster in his brother's form. Now THAT would have been a cool scene.

As for the rest of the show, I would have been satisfied if it ended with season 5, that would have been a ballsy move. More so than Sopranos me thinks.

[planet news]

Hella ballsy. It definitely would've gone down in history as one of the greatest ever after that. Now I think it might just be remembered for being fun but a cop out. I tend to not want to remember it at all.

It had great character moments at the end of that season too. I felt like everyone went through a lot that season. Not too much even happened character wise in season six to be perfectly honest.

[Pyro Tramp]

Meh, I still like it. The only bitter taste left was with Locke, felt cheated by the end of his arch and him being Smokey just seemed like a way to shoe horn Terry to stay in the show. Would have rather if they kept the MiB playing him instead that nonsense 'stuck' in that form. Most bits I could deduce an explanation for, except that. The only cop-outs I really felt were killing of main characters needlessly, just to streamline the focus on the central characters for the last few episodes.

[TheUsualSuspect]

I took it as once he found the loop hole, he was stuck in that form.

But I agree, about the characters being killed off needlessly. Look at Sayid.

[Sedai]

Chronos & Kairos

Anyone familiar with these concepts? As I watch the show, I have been considering the time shifts that start with Desmond, and i like the idea that the people stuck in time are living chronologically, while the folks that come "unstuck" in time begin perceiving their lives in Kairological time...

[lundy1026]

I just HAD to share... Just watched LOST seasons 1-6 (took me two weeks) and I CRYED durring the last episode. It was so emotional. The whole tv show was AMAZING! One of the best and most origianal in my opinion. Too bad there will be more seasons but yeah, that was a great show :)

[Fiscal]

Lindelof comes clean, writers were making stuff up as they went along. (http://videogum.com/381751/duh-aficionado-magazine-damon-lindelof-explains-how-lost-was-kind-of-********/behind-the-scenes/)

Highlights:

[Damon Lindelof and JJ Abrams] threw in lots of wild elements just because they never expected it to get on the air.

One of the main calling cards of the show — the flashbacks to characters’ lives before they crash landed on the island — was simply a way to cut away from the same old tropical locale.

If it seemed like the writers were making things up as they went along, by the way, they often were. And also? Lindelof tried to quit the show, again and again.

“‘There should be a hatch on this island! They spend the entire season trying to get it open. And there should be these other people on the island,’” Lindelof recalled Abrams saying. “And I’m like, ”We can call them The Others.’ And he’s like, ‘They should hear this noise out there in the jungle.’ And I’m like, ‘What’s the noise?’ And he’s like, ‘I don’t…know. They’re never going to pick this thing up anyway.’”

He said he agreed with critics who said the show could never last more than a season.<

[Yoda]

I never thought that was really in doubt, or that it was a particularly scathing criticism. You can count on one hand the number of shows that were actually planned out significantly ahead of time.

That said, the quotes still sound a little facetious.

[Fiscal]

I was under the impression that most of the talent involved claimed that a large amount of the show was planned out since the beginning.

Quick Google search says I am not the only one that was under that impression.

[Pyro Tramp]

I think the generally acknowledged stance on the forethought of the shows writing was it started circa Season 3 when they were given an end date and then plotted out accordingly. I think that explains the slightly ropey Season 2 and start of Season 3. Personally, I could definitely see the momentum pick up from that point. Of course a lot of stuff in the first Season would have been made-up as they went along, the whole first season was making the show up and developing itself.

[Sedai]

Just finishing up season 4 with a friend that hasn't seen the show. Still very entertaining and incredibly thought provoking. my friend has already stated that, no matter how it ends, the show has inspired so many great conversations for us, it's all been worth it already.

[TylerDurden99]

I ordered the first season a few days ago, and have already watched the first few episodes, but I already love it.

[Gabrielle947]

This show is very nostalgic for me.Couple years ago,I used to watch it on TV,there was one episode each week and it was so captivating - probably the most intriguing TV show I've seen.But then,I don't remember why,I stopped watching it.So a few weeks ago,I remembered LOST and rewatched it from beginning to the end.

And to conclude,I think that the show started going downhill after season 3.Season 4 was a bit worse than the first three but it brought new characters which I personally liked (Miles and Faraday) but season 5 was so disappointing for me.It just seemed over the top not only because of the science fiction which was introduced but also it was just messy,it started raising more questions and keeping more loose ends.Season 6 was a bit better but overall I think that the first 3 seasons were much much better.

I was surprised by Michael Emerson who played Benjamin Linus.That was a great acting performance and it is my favorite character of the show (which also was a bit ruined somewhere in season 4-6).Maybe this actor just found "his" role but I think he has potential.As for characters,I also liked Faraday,Miles and Sawyer.However,unlike the most people,I disliked Desmond a lot - he actually annoyed me.


Overall,really entertaining and captivating show,I would recommend it.

[Daniel M]

Lost will always be a special TV show for me, the first real show that I properly got into, as soon as I started watching it I fell in love and was amazed by it, especially the first two seasons, then I loved the others like Ben and that. The time travel stuff I was okay with, I think they explained it well, and going back to the origins of Dharma and then Jacob was a good idea. Whilst I think the last season wasn't very good when compared to the earlier seasons I didn't hate it, although the parallel happy universe thing was pointless.

Also the fact that they were making it up as they were going along I always thought was obvious at times despite them denying it and referring to the two skeletons in the first season. The most obvious case of this is the part where Ben takes Lost to that cabin where Jacob is meant to be and we see some man in a beard in a chair flash and then when Ben gets back to Richard he tells him a message delivered by Jacob which does clearly not fit in with the real character of Jacob and what we are shown in the final season.

[TheUsualSuspect]

I LOVED season 5 because of the time travel element. It was a ballsy move for a mainstream show and asked a lot from its viewers to keep up. I loved the rules introduced, what the consequences were, etc.

Season 6 was the worst in my opinion. It felt like a totally different show. Introducing important things with only 2 or 3 episodes left, not answering more questions, blah, blah, blah. Although it does have Ab Aeterno, one of my favourite episodes, The Richard centric one. Also, any episode with Titus Welliver is aces in my books.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Also the fact that they were making it up as they were going along I always thought was obvious at times despite them denying it and referring to the two skeletons in the first season. The most obvious case of this is the part where Ben takes Lost to that cabin where Jacob is meant to be and we see some man in a beard in a chair flash and then when Ben gets back to Richard he tells him a message delivered by Jacob which does clearly not fit in with the real character of Jacob and what we are shown in the final season.

Ben has never met Jacob, he's been lying the entire time. The person in the cabin, we can only assume was the Man in Black, since we know he was tying to manipulate both Ben and Locke into finding a loop hole.

[Daniel M]

Ben has never met Jacob, he's been lying the entire time. The person in the cabin, we can only assume was the Man in Black, since we know he was tying to manipulate both Ben and Locke into finding a loop hole.

I suppose that makes sense, can't really remember the specifics from the early seasons but I think Ben was meant to be constantly in contact with Jacob taking orders no? So what you said would definitely clarify that if he's actually talking to MIB.

Also your previous post about the time travel and season 6 pretty much sums up my thoughts on the show, Ab Aaterno was a fantastic episode, they really should of spent more time over perhaps a couple of seasons and approached the origin stuff in a more structured organise way, the huge statue thing, temple, ship etc. all fascinated me from the beginning.

Really need to watch it all through again, really loved it and it's been so long, when I used to watch it I used to be so knowledgeable about it :p But now I can hardly remember anything.

[Yoda]

I know people say "making it up as they go" as a criticism, but that's pretty much the standard in TV. Very, very few shows are plotted out in advance, and those that are (like Babylon 5) generally just have a basic structure, with lots of flexibility in how they get there. That's just the nature of the medium.

When Lindelof and Cuse said they weren't making things up, I take that to mean that they had a few general end points they wanted to reach. For example, they've said for quite awhile that they intended those black and white game pieces Locke held up early in to come to represent two opposing people on two opposing sides of a conflict, even if they were open-minded about exactly who those people and sides were going to be.

The art of television writing is largely the art of leaving yourself strands you can tie up later, I think, and the art of thinking on your feet and writing yourself out of self-imposed corners. I do think lots of serialized shows would benefit at least from having a general sense of the ending when they start (I think Breaking Bad is a very good example of this), but that's all I really think is necessary to achieve cohesion. And even then, you'd still want the occasional writer to jump at the opportunity if something occurs to them along the way.

This happens all the time with specific characters, IE: Michael Emerson blows them away with his performance as Ben Linus, so they expand his role. We'd miss out on a lot of great supporting characters if TV writers weren't willing to change things on the fly. Most great shows have some story like this, where such-and-such character was supposed to die, or supposed to hang around for just an episode or two, but a combination of the actor who plays them and seeing the performance on screen convinces them to augment things.

[TheUsualSuspect]

This happens all the time with specific characters, IE: Michael Emerson blows them away with his performance as Ben Linus, so they expand his role. We'd miss out on a lot of great supporting characters if TV writers weren't willing to change things on the fly. Most great shows have some story like this, where such-and-such character was supposed to die, or supposed to hang around for just an episode or two, but a combination of the actor who plays them and seeing the performance on screen convinces them to augment things.

Jack was suppose to die in the pilot, that was when Michael Keaton was attached. When he left, they re-cast, and decided to keep him as the main protagonist.


Daniel - I don't even know if he ever talked to MIB either. I'm almost 100% sure that Ben knew about Jacob because of Richard and when Ben took over the lead of the Others, he lied to them saying he kept getting orders from Jacob. The biggest evidence for this is the LIST. The list of Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley. Jacob never gave them this list (season 3) Ben made it up himself so he can manipulate Jack into giving him surgery for a tumour he found.

The only time we KNOW that MIB interacted with Ben was when he was Flocke (fake locke). The whole cabin thing was a weird episode, that we can only make assumptions on. We know the cabin was originally Jacobs, the ash circle, the people actually saying this in S6, but MIB has been squatting there.

[Pyro Tramp]

TV shows are quite organic. I like that it grew and evolved into something much further reaching and deeper than you'd have anticipated. The low points were probably Season 2 / early Season 3 and then it continuously improved. Season 6, I loved... eventually. It has it's flaws but I was completely satisfied with the send off of all the characters. Boggles and frustrates me that most the people underwhelmed by it, completely missed the ending and thought the Island was purgatory all along. I'd still maintain Sawyer had one of the best TV character arcs ever (Walt/Jesse perhaps only contention).

[Yoda]

All I know is I start to distrust television writers the more they use the word "characters" in interviews. It's like a subtle signal to viewers not to worry about plot, because the writers are giving emotional payoffs priority over narrative coherence. By the end, Cuse and Lindelof were using the word every other sentence in their podcasts.

Which is not to say characterization doesn't matter, mind you. But the best writing doesn't force you to choose between the two. And it seems like a lot of otherwise good writers/showrunners fall into the trap of sacrificing everything else at the alter of character.

[will.15]

There shouldn't be any contraciction. Characterization comes from the plot.

[Yoda]

I'm pretty sure character and plot have a chicken/egg relationship. You learn about the characters from how they react to events, and their personalities determine the events. I dunno if I would say either comes first, exactly.

Anyway, wherever you want to start, I think trying to prioritize them is an admission that the writers haven't been able to pull things off and are simply lining up their entertainment creditors, with characters getting paid off first. It's not necessarily the wrong decision, but the fact that you have to make it at all means you've already messed up.

[Pyro Tramp]

All I know is I start to distrust television writers the more they use the word "characters" in interviews. It's like a subtle signal to viewers not to worry about plot, because the writers are giving emotional payoffs priority over narrative coherence. By the end, Cuse and Lindelof were using the word every other sentence in their podcasts.

Which is not to say characterization doesn't matter, mind you. But the best writing doesn't force you to choose between the two. And it seems like a lot of otherwise good writers/showrunners fall into the trap of sacrificing everything else at the alter of character.

I kind of see your angle but by the final season, the narrative had been to so many places, the only constant was the characters and it would have been disservice to the previous work to have a narrative led final season because it wouldn't have had any resonance.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Two shows I could take about for hours are LOST and BUFFY.

[will.15]

I kind of see your angle but by the final season, the narrative had been to so many places, the only constant was the characters and it would have been disservice to the previous work to have a narrative led final season because it wouldn't have had any resonance.
It would have if they were not making it up as it went along.

It still had no resonance because the characters were never developed fixed characters. They were always at the mercy of the writers and twisted to fit their whims.

[Pyro Tramp]

It would have if they were not making it up as it went along.

It still had no resonance because the characters were never developed fixed characters. They were always at the mercy of the writers and twisted to fit their whims.

They went through bizarre situations at the whim of the writers and a few characters suffered but I think this 'making up as they went along' thing is used a blanket excuse too much. So what? It worked, i've watched the show at least 3 times all through and it's pretty cohesive and the characters are, with some exceptions, consistent and developed.

[Daniel M]

Random post, but tonight I have been in a kind of nostalgic mood and have been reading a whole lot of stuff about LOST, which has lead to be remembering a whole lot of details that I had began to forget since I stopped watching the show. I think I've said on this site (probably this thread before) that when it was going this was my favourite TV show, and will always be great to me, and I feel like watching it all again now after reading about it and remembering just how great it all was.

But I have a big question, that I can't seem to find an answer that I am pleased with on the internet.

In the final season we get the two worlds, the normal reality which we have seen for six season and the 'flash sideways' happy/purgatory world. In the first episode of season six (I think) we see the passengers of Flight 815 land safely, and one shot shows the island submerged underwater. The island has been sunk, the barracks and that are constructed, only the four toed foot of the statue remains, so these give us some clues on when it could have been sunk in this world.

So my question is, why is it underwater? Like what caused it, I assume it's to do with the source/cork? And if so when was it sunk? It can't have been at the end with Ben/Hurley because that was after Flight 815 (obviously), but when else could it have been? The one that makes sense is the most is that jughead (the bomb that caused the incident/swan station) caused it to sink, but I don't buy it, a bomb could not sink an island.

I probably had my own answer for this when I used to watch it, but without watching it again I am struggling to think of the logical answer for this? Not that it's important really, but I am interested to see if you guys can help me out here, maybe I am missing something.

[Yoda]

When we see it underwater, we're seeing it in the afterlife. This doesn't really explain it specifically, but it does sort of absolve them of having to explain it, since lots of things are different there.

[Daniel M]

When we see it underwater, we're seeing it in the afterlife. This doesn't really explain it specifically, but it does sort of absolve them of having to explain it, since lots of things are different there.

Yeh I guess so, but by showing us that deliberate scene it is still implied that the island did exist up until a point (DHARMA barracks are there) and then was destroyed before Flight 815 so that the passengers on board carried on their lives and gained happiness afterwards. They could have had the island just not existing, like no need for the scene, but with it it kind of implies that the island was stopped at a certain point, hence my question.

There might not be an answer, and like you said there doesn't really need to be, they might have just put the scene there for dramatic effect.

And also, reading about the characters of Jacob/MIB again, I feel more sympathic towards MIB as I did when I originally watched the show, he was always the good one to me and simply wanted to return to humanity (where he came from) where as Jacob was disillusioned under 'Mother' in to stopping such and thinking that it was important to remain on the island and stop 'the evil'.

[Yoda]

Yeah, I mean, there's some tricksiness by showing it to us at all, because we're not following a character's POV of anything and it has no real relation to what's going on. It's only being shown to confuse and entice us. It's the same thing with cutting from the bomb going off to the afterlife; there's literally no connection between them, but the editing suggests one to essentially throw us off the scent.

There's no point at which they outright cheat, but it's kinda disingenuous. The best surprises happen in full view because they work on some other level. When they exist only to mislead us, I tend to think that's kinda cheap.

[cinemachaser]

I loved this show, it is my absolute favorite when it comes to TV series. Watched it twice, loved the characters, the idea, the ending, its message and so on.
Almost everytime I think of it I discover new stuff, for me it was a guiding show, that really made me a Lindelof/Abrams fan.
I would definitely recommend it to anyone out there who hasn't watched it yet.


Sent from the Light Side using The Force

[Guaporense]

I know people say "making it up as they go" as a criticism, but that's pretty much the standard in TV. Very, very few shows are plotted out in advance

There are many hundreds of TV series well plotted in advance (usually anime series are plotted out in advance and there are over a hundred of these series made per year). Ingmar Bergman's Fanny and Alexander was also plotted in advance.

True, it's rare for North American TV shows (also, for Brazilian ones) to be plotted in advance but that's correlated with the fact that most of these shows are not very good.

The greatest advantage of TV over cinema is the possibility of creating long and complex stories with lot of character development and writing a whole TV show in advance of it's screening is the way to maximize the greatness of a TV series. Basically, the best TV series are the ones written as a very long movie.

and those that are (like Babylon 5) generally just have a basic structure, with lots of flexibility in how they get there.

Babylon 5 had a very detailed and well worked story before it began and this story was delivered over four seasons. The fifth season lost it's plotting edge and became like other TV shows (i.e. filler) and thus I only consider the first four seasons to be great TV.

And this series shows clearly the advantages of having it plotted out in advance: Babylon 5's ending was very, very satisfying, in fact, the most satisfying ending I ever watched in a science fiction series.

Compare the ending of Babbylon 5 with Battlestar Galactica and LOST to notice the difference between a well plotted series and two series made up as they go.

Episodic series work well if they are made up since each episode is it's own distinct universe.

That's just the nature of the medium.

No it is not, as disproven by the existence of many hundreds (in fact, thousands) of TV series plotted in advance (though they are mostly not American TV series so you probably don't know these).

The art of television writing is largely the art of leaving yourself strands you can tie up later, I think, and the art of thinking on your feet and writing yourself out of self-imposed corners. I do think lots of serialized shows would benefit at least from having a general sense of the ending when they start (I think Breaking Bad is a very good example of this), but that's all I really think is necessary to achieve cohesion. And even then, you'd still want the occasional writer to jump at the opportunity if something occurs to them along the way.

This happens all the time with specific characters, IE: Michael Emerson blows them away with his performance as Ben Linus, so they expand his role. We'd miss out on a lot of great supporting characters if TV writers weren't willing to change things on the fly. Most great shows have some story like this, where such-and-such character was supposed to die, or supposed to hang around for just an episode or two, but a combination of the actor who plays them and seeing the performance on screen convinces them to augment things.

Maybe. But I noticed that Breaking Bad was the only traditional TV series among my 5 TV series that works that way. All the others are short series with a plot mostly worked out in advance (well, even Rome that had two seasons are was partly made up had much of it's central plot worked out with two thousand years of advance).

The ideal TV series would have it's full basic plot written in advance, run a single season of 10-25 episodes (giving enough time to develop it's ideas without wasting time on subpar episodes) and have a plot without any holes that fit's perfectly. Basically, a movie divided into parts and screened over a single season. My favorite TV series, the anime Puella Magi Madoka Magica, is a 12 episode series whose ending was written first and the whole series was written backyards from the ending, before they made the first episode. It's plot flows perfectly and every line of dialogue is perfectly consistent with every other over the whole series. Everything fits together perfectly and makes perfect sense without sacrificing any character development or emotional payoff, in fact, it is amplified. It works like clockwork and a TV series like this is extremely rare.

Lost actually lost some of it's greatness due to it's many filler episodes and lack of cohesion. If the series ran for 25 episodes instead of nearly a hundred, without wasting so much time on filler and had a very consistent main plot, it would be a 5 series.

[Deadite]

While the show had a lot of great moments, nothing has changed my nagging feeling that there was some crucial missed opportunity there.

[Yoda]

There are many hundreds of TV series well plotted in advance (usually anime series are plotted out in advance and there are over a hundred of these series made per year). Ingmar Bergman's Fanny and Alexander was also plotted in advance.

True, it's rare for North American TV shows (also, for Brazilian ones) to be plotted in advance but that's correlated with the fact that most of these shows are not very good.

The greatest advantage of TV over cinema is the possibility of creating long and complex stories with lot of character development and writing a whole TV show in advance of it's screening is the way to maximize the greatness of a TV series. Basically, the best TV series are the ones written as a very long movie.
"Many hundreds" is very, very few in the broad context of all TV shows ever made, but yes, we're talking about North American television here. The relevant point, however, is that not being planned out in advance is not a clean, obvious explanation as to why someone didn't like Lost, because most people, if they list their favorite shows, will inevitably list several others that weren't planned in advance either.

I couldn't disagree more with that last sentence: the advantage of TV over cinema is that it can experiment as it goes and evolve/adapt over time, because it doesn't have to be written all at once. They can incorporate lessons and feedback about the story as it goes. This is its unique advantage, even if it comes with some downsides. But just treating it like a long movie gives away so much of what separates it from film.

Babylon 5 had a very detailed and well worked story before it began and this story was delivered over four seasons. The fifth season lost it's plotting edge and became like other TV shows (i.e. filler) and thus I only consider the first four seasons to be great TV.

And this series shows clearly the advantages of having it plotted out in advance: Babylon 5's ending was very, very satisfying, in fact, the most satisfying ending I ever watched in a science fiction series.

Compare the ending of Babbylon 5 with Battlestar Galactica and LOST to notice the difference between a well plotted series and two series made up as they go.

Episodic series work well if they are made up since each episode is it's own distinct universe.
Aye, I'm aware of the manner in which Babylon V was written (with backdoors for every character lest the actor leave, etc.). No one's saying it's impossible; it's just much, much harder, and creates a much greater barrier to entry that would ultimately exclude all sorts of fine shows. And you'll notice it was considerably less successful than Lost.

No it is not, as disproven by the existence of many hundreds (in fact, thousands) of TV series plotted in advance (though they are mostly not American TV series so you probably don't know these).
Nothing is "disproven" by these examples, because saying something is the "nature of the medium" does not mean it's inevitable; just that it's generally that way for a reason. The nature of TV is that it's doled out irregularly over long periods of time. That naturally lends itself to ongoing, organic storytelling of a kind that isn't possible with film.

[Deadite]

I actually think a strength of good tv is in well-done "filler". I partly agree with Guapo, in the sense that you should be able to look back on a series and see an overall cohesion, sort of like a serial novel or series of novels.

Film (relative to tv) typically can't really afford to play around too much and waste time exploring tangents, but a tv series is perfect for the kind of fleshed-out subplots and digressive embellishments of its "world" that usually only novels can get away with.

In skilled hands, those seeming "unnecessary" elements actually add greater impact to the themes, central overarching storyline, what the show's really about.

Of course filler is too often used poorly, but if the writers have a long-term vision then filler episodes can be crafted with that in mind, to expand on their ideas. And filler can also be a way to break monotony (not boredom but literally to break an ongoing tone and segue to another), to let them experiment a little with the characters and deepen them.

[Deadite]

I'll also add the thought that with the advent of "House Of Cards" style releases and the "binge viewer" phenomenon, we may very well see shows tend away from that organic evolution Yoda pointed out and toward a more filmic structure.

[Daniel M]

Do you guys remember that episode with the couple, I think they were called Paulo and Niki, that had to be the most pointless episode ever :p

[Deadite]

Where they both turned out to be crooks and met their appropriate ends? I vaguely recall. Kind of like a Tales From The Crypt episode.

[Daniel M]

Where they both turned out to be crooks and met their appropriate ends? I vaguely recall. Kind of like a Tales From The Crypt episode.

Something to do with diamonds yeh and they got bit by spiders? But then they weren't actually dead and it turned out they were buried alive. I mean, I didn't mind the episode, but it was absolutely pointless, the characters had hardly done anything previous to that and the little storyline of the episode did nothing but kill them off and didn't contribute to the overall plot in any way I don't think :D

[Deadite]

Yes, that's the one. It was odd.

[Sedai]

Something to do with diamonds yeh and they got bit by spiders? But then they weren't actually dead and it turned out they were buried alive. I mean, I didn't mind the episode, but it was absolutely pointless, the characters had hardly done anything previous to that and the little storyline of the episode did nothing but kill them off and didn't contribute to the overall plot in any way I don't think :D

Those characters were introduced to boost viewership in hispanic audiences, but the characters got so much crap online and in polls that they decided to kill them off. I recall a story about it at the time.

[Fabulous]

Great discussion thread. Currently going through my first rewatch. :)

[Sedai]

One of my favorite shows of all time! :)

[TONGO]

One of my favorite shows of all time! :)

Those last 3 seasons fell on their face though. Hard.

[TONGO]

Do you guys remember that episode with the couple, I think they were called Paulo and Niki, that had to be the most pointless episode ever :p

Yeah "Paulo lies!" Ol Hugo screwed the pooch on that one

Edit in - Oh you said that 3 years ago :facepalm:

[Topsy]

love love love this show. but as the seasons went on its sort felt like they were digging themselfs deeper and couldnt get out of it. the ending was lackluster to say the least.

i read somewhere when they were celebrating 10 years they wanted to bring it back?

[Camo]

love love love this show. but as the seasons went on its sort felt like they were digging themselfs deeper and couldnt get out of it. the ending was lackluster to say the least.

i read somewhere when they were celebrating 10 years they wanted to bring it back?

Was probably a hoax.

[Topsy]

well i fell for it lol
however its been so long now so it prob was...or just something they said and didnt follow through on.
dont know where they would go with after the finale though. :lol:

my fave storyline apart from the first season as a whole,was prob desmond and his girlfriend

[Camo]

Don't see how they could bring it back unless they went for a reboot with a different cast and characters.

[Fabulous]

I'm nearing the end of Season 3 in my rewatch. I'm dreading the finale. :(

[Nope1172]

I'm nearing the end of Season 3 in my rewatch. I'm dreading the finale. :(The season 3 finale is the greatest episode of the entire show without a doubt. A watch it at least once a month. It is one of my favorite TV episodes of all time.

[Camo]

Never understood why it got so much praise personally. Good episode but i don't think it reaches some of the emotional heights of Season 1.

[Fabulous]

Never understood why it got so much praise personally. Good episode but i don't think it reaches some of the emotional heights of Season 1.

Season 1 finale was magnificent!

[Sedai]

Just finished yet ANOTHER re-watch of the entire series. That would be FIVE times for whomever is counting. I clearly have issues...We watched this time with our good friends Marta and Felicia, and there wasn't a dry eye in the room tonight!

I understand the show is flawed in its way, but for me, no other show attempted so many things, tried so many crazy ideas as far as structure and theme, and few shows have ever been as thought-provoking. Apparently, I will never get tires of watching Lost with good friends.

For the record, I adore the last three seasons, and in fact, I think they are stellar - some of my favorite material from the run. If I really had to pick a weak season, it would be three. This of course does not include the amazing season three finale, which is just aces.

Until next time, Lost. It's been quite a ride, as always.

http://www.screenfad.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Lost-Casst.jpg

[TheUsualSuspect]

For the record, I adore the last three seasons, and in fact, I think they are stellar - some of my favorite material from the run. If I really had to pick a weak season, it would be three. This of course does not include the amazing season three finale, which is just aces.

Until next time, Lost. It's been quite a ride, as always.

http://www.screenfad.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Lost-Casst.jpg

Maybe the first half? I remember the second half being stellar.

Obviously for me the 6th is the weakest. I like the ending too, but the feeling of pointlessness to the flash sideways will always rub me the wrong way. Funny enough, this season also has one of my favourite episodes, which is Richard's flashback.

Despite the shows flaws, still one of my favourites and no other show has gotten me so invested in the mythology, nor has any show gotten me to come up with my own theories on what's going on. There are tons of imitators, but only one LOST.

[ynwtf]

Just rolled into s5 on a rewatch. Still love this series and it still holds up wonderfully with age. Minor issues here and there but all in all I find the story tight and quite fantastic.

1.5 seasons to go. I hope to finish before the holiday travel kicks in.

[Sedai]

I return to this thread shamefacedly to report that I am in the midst of yet another re-watch of Lost. At this point I will just admit that I will never get tired of this show, it never loses its shine, and it is without a doubt my favorite show ever.

This always starts the same way: someone will be at my house, they will state they have never seen the show when I randomly mention it, and they think it is "kind of like Survivor, right?" or something along those lines. I will put the pilot on, and about halfway through they will look over at me and say "Dude...this isn't anything like I thought it would be. I am binging this shit ASAP."

Some people stick with it, some people don't, but I invariably watch the entire damned show again. I am still surprised how many people I run into that not only haven't seen it, but missed the entire cultural zeitgeist surrounding it and really have no idea what it's all about.

https://grantland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/1-pilot-jack-e1411494413136.jpg?w=987

[Austruck]

Oh man! Every week after a new episode there would be SO MANY discussions here at the house about WTF just happened, why they answered one question but asked ten more new ones, and what was going to happen next. (We were rarely right in our guesses.)

I own all the DVDs for this but it's currently easier to just stream it somewhere. Time for a rewatch here too! (To be fair, that twist in the final season still pisses me off. PISSES ME OFF. So few shows stick the landing, though, that I'll still rewatch.)

[cricket]

Hmmm, wifey and I have never seen this and it appears to be on Netflix

[Sedai]

Oh man! Every week after a new episode there would be SO MANY discussions here at the house about WTF just happened, why they answered one question but asked ten more new ones, and what was going to happen next. (We were rarely right in our guesses.)

I own all the DVDs for this but it's currently easier to just stream it somewhere. Time for a rewatch here too! (To be fair, that twist in the final season still pisses me off. PISSES ME OFF. So few shows stick the landing, though, that I'll still rewatch.)

The more I watch this, and it has been many times...

...the more I appreciate the decision to go with a mostly character-driven, sort of spiritual ending.

A few things didn't work in the show, but the ending works for me. You are talking about the ending, yes?

[Austruck]

A few things didn't work in the show, but the ending works for me. You are talking about the ending, yes?

I meant the whole gist/twist of the final season, and into the ending. NOT COOL, man.

It just meant that the entire first five seasons really didn't MEAN anything if they were all dead. All that heartbreak and fear and dread and... all meant nothing because of that ending.

But remember that the ending of Battlestart Galactica also pissed me off.
And the ending of The Sopranos.

So apparently I get pissed off easily with series finales. :D

[John McClane]

So apparently I get pissed off easily with series finales. :D
no no, you get pissed off by bad/quick/lazy endings. Lost ending was lazy.

[Sedai]

no no, you get pissed off by bad/quick/lazy endings. Lost ending was lazy.

No one on the show was lazy in their work ethic, but they had written themselves into a corner with really no other way out - Lindelof didn't/doesn't possess the talent or vision to grapple with the multi-layered nuttiness the show eventually became. Also, the ending we got was superior to any ending that just focused on tying up the mythology at the expense of the character stories, as far as I am concerned. I give tons of credit to the showrunners for just swinging for the fences and taking all sorts of risks and trying so many different ideas out. When you really analyze all the crazy chances they took and choices they made, I don't think there was any way they were going to stick any sort of landing. The show is about a plane crash, after all! ;)

Remember, Damon Lindelof didn't even want to run Lost in the first place - he took the position so he could lobby JJ to get a job on Alias after the stupid island show crashed and burned, only to have the show dumped in his lap when JJ started hanging out with Tom Cruise. Yes, it's all Tom Cruises fault! Damon had several breakdowns by the time he was trying to write episode 7, and the guy totally um, LOST it when the first ratings came in and people not only liked the show, but it was breaking records. Everyone expected it to fail, they were totally making it up as they went along, and if Damon hadn't convinced Carlton Cuse to get on board to help him, the second season would have been about a TV writer that had a nervous breakdown and ended up in an insane asylum playing Connect Four with a bespectacled gentleman that kept repeating numbers over and over.

I mean, thinking about it, I think Desmond is Damon Lindelof, and that guy who left him in the hatch to save the world is JJ Abrams.

As to what Austruck said:

But isn't purgatory a thing? Wouldn't finding redemption and accepting certain truths that had previously been denied play into the religious themes?

I think when the show went fully into esoteric genre/sci-fi stuff, it abandoned its chances of keeping things contained in a way that would play out to an ending that would satisfy everyone.

Flawed show for sure, but it's me favorite, so I will die on this hill.

[Austruck]

But isn't purgatory a thing? Wouldn't finding redemption and accepting certain truths that had previously been denied play into the religious themes?

Purgatory is not a biblical idea. It's a Catholic idea. :D So, I'm sure part of my PO'ed state is/was the bad theology. :D

Having said all this, your post does make me want to rewatch and see if it hits differently after X amount of years. The last time I did a rewatch, I was surprised at how early the craziness started (the polar bear, etc.). Somehow I had the memory that those things crept in later than they actually did. So maybe I'll be less harsh with the ending now that my initial shock has had a decade-plus to wear off. :D

As a side note, the BEST series finale/ending of all time has to be the finale of Six Feet Under. That whole final episode was/is glorious. It is satisfying on multiple levels. Just, you know, if you haven't yet watched it and needed a nudge in that direction. :D

[Austruck]

Looks like I'm gonna have to dig out the ol' DVDs. Nobody's streaming Lost for free ATM. Every so often I am rewarded for spending money on actual DVDs. :D

[Austruck]

Looks like I'm gonna have to dig out the ol' DVDs. Nobody's streaming Lost for free ATM. Every so often I am rewarded for spending money on actual DVDs. :D

Well, for once I've caught the JustWatch.com website not being up to date. Apparently all six seasons of Lost are currently on Netflix. Huzzah!

[AKA23]

I think "Lost" is a wonderful show that is very unique, and it clearly inspired later shows like "Alias", "Manifest", etc. but I do think it failed to deliver in the end. There were so many unanswered questions and dropped stories during "Lost" and a lot of it just was not fully understandable. For a show like that, it seemed like it should build to a big pay off, but it just didn't ever happen. So much of it was centered around the construction of a mythology that they never fully realized. I think that's the reason that the finale is so divisive. It's not just that the finale as a singular episode was unsatisfying for many people. It's that that type of show should ideally build to answering some of the questions and pulling together the story in a way that honored what came before it, and imbued it with new meaning that couldn't be reached until the full story had been told, but that never happened with "Lost".

[Sedai]

Looks like I'm gonna have to dig out the ol' DVDs. Nobody's streaming Lost for free ATM. Every so often I am rewarded for spending money on actual DVDs. :D


I think Netflix has it, but I am watching it on disc, so haven't really looked around for it.

When you dig into the genesis (see what I did there?) of the show, much of the stuff in the pilot and the first half of season 1 was just sort of randomly thrown in there, as JJ basically said "OK, they crash on the island, there is weird stuff going on, and there is a hatch." and that was all they had to go on. They figured it would get canceled or not picked up at all, so they just sort of went crazy and tossed a bunch of ideas out without much forethought - they didn't even have everyone cast yet.

JJ Abrams famously has this magic mystery box that he bought when he was a kid. I forget the actual numbers, but it was something like 15 bucks for a box that had 40 dollars worth of magic tricks inside. He got it at a magic store and he loved the idea of not knowing what was inside - he said it taught him that mystery is sometimes more valuable and more compelling than knowledge. He has still never opened that box to this day. He had the idea to make a show like this, but never really had a great fit for it until he got the call to come in and "fix" a show that was not coming together for a group of creators at ABC. The network was hostile to the idea in the first place, wanted the next NCIS or Law and Order or whatever, and the people trying to put together whatever the show was (I forget the name of the show and the concept) were failing miserably.

Lost is special because it all comes together in this perfect storm of creative risk-taking: plunging a group of actors, writers, and producers into the ocean and stranding them on an island and saying "we don't think this is going to work at all, so just go crazy and let's see what happens."

Lost was special because it is a show that was about a group of people who had never met being thrust into a situation that saw them all stranded on a mysterious island together: they had to set up a camp, get to know one another, and forge bonds and alliances while exploring and discovering the land around them and the spiritual and human territories within. Those characters were played by a group of actors that had never met who were all suddenly on a mysterious island together: they had to set up camp, get to know one another, and forge bonds and alliances while discovering the land around them and the spiritual and human territories within. I mean...what other show had a setup like that?

Many of the actors are on record saying things like it was the best job they ever had (Terry O'Quinn), it helped evolve them from a girl into a woman (Maggie Grace) or it gave them an eternal bond with the ocean and the island itself (Evangeline Lily, who btw had never acted before in TV or film). Michael Emerson has praised the writing as brilliant and claims he loves the end, especially where Ben ended up.

With a such a big cast shooting in such a relatively remote (from the rest of the world) location, problems were bound to arise. Many actors and crew couldn't stick it out for the long haul, due to either other obligations, health reasons, or their lives falling under duress due to separation from family etc. Harold Perrineau famously didn't care for the direction his character was going, asked for changes to be made, and then was allegedly let go. He still seems to have a chip on his shoulder about this. The showrunners claim it just worked out that his character arc didn't have anywhere else to go, and that the actor that played Walt had a growth spurt that made it impossible for them to preserve the continuity of the show.

The point being, Lost was a ridiculously complex show to produce, took major risks, redefined how TV shows were made as well as the expectations people had for them, and also helped usher in a methodology of show running that flew in the face of the norms of the time. With so much working against it and with all the risks it took, we ended up with one of the most creative and influential shows of all time. Will we even have another show like it?

https://i.postimg.cc/DwfX27nT/2-X21-Question-Mark-Timer.webp

[Sedai]

I think "Lost" is a wonderful show that is very unique, and it clearly inspired later shows like "Alias", "Manifest", etc. but I do think it failed to deliver in the end. There were so many unanswered questions and dropped stories during "Lost" and a lot of it just was not fully understandable. For a show like that, it seemed like it should build to a big pay off, but it just didn't ever happen. So much of it was centered around the construction of a mythology that they never fully realized. I think that's the reason that the finale is so divisive. It's not just that the finale as a singular episode was unsatisfying for many people. It's that that type of show should ideally build to answering some of the questions and pulling together the story in a way that honored what came before it, and imbued it with new meaning that couldn't be reached until the full story had been told, but that never happened with "Lost".

Disagree.

And btw Alias came out in 2001, which predates Lost by a few years.

I think what many people (myself included after the first time through the show) had trouble coming to grips with, was that the show did start out a show driven primarily by the mythology and mystery, but sort of got lost in its own puzzle box, at least as far as some of the mysteries were concerned. I think the failings in that regard expose the inherent issues with mystery box shows and I understand that perhaps the format can't really ever work perfectly. I also understand why people just wouldn't like shows that lean into this format too heavily.

What I came to realize was that once I embraced the show as a character-driven show, those loose ends with the mythology just didn't matter as much. The character stuff was still very engaging and compelling, and I think the show runners eventually realized that the character arcs, moral lessons and life journey stuff was more important and is what would be remembered after the show was done. That is the stuff that keeps me coming back to watch the show, not the polar bears or the Valenzetti Equation.

I do think they story did build and reveal meaning, but not is a way that can have every little piece fall perfectly into place. I am not sure a mystery box show like that can ever exist. That said, I hope it does some day!

[John McClane]

isn’t it kinda lazy to write yourself into a corner, tho? i think so. i mean, make a plan. i wouldn’t eat an elephant without a plan.

[Austruck]

What I came to realize was that once I embraced the show as a character-driven show, those loose ends with the mythology just didn't matter as much. The character stuff was still very engaging and compelling, and I think the show runners eventually realized that the character arcs, moral lessons and life journey stuff was more important and is what would be remembered after the show was done. That is the stuff that keeps me coming back to watch the show, not the polar bears or the Valenzetti Equation.
This sort of thing is a false dichotomy, if you ask me (as a writer and a reader and a viewer). You can (and should) have a character-driven story that still satisfies on the STORY level. Sure, I loved all those same things about Lost that you did: the characters were fabulous, their backstories made the island story far more interesting and gave it more gravitas (for lack of a better term), and we cared what happened to each of them. DEFINITELY character-driven in all those ways.

But you can't just throw strongly written characters into a nonsense story that never resolves correctly. You want to see resolutions to all the things that plagued them, that perplexed them. You need it. If this were a book series, readers would really get pissed at an ending like that. Once you invest yourself into these characters and this story, you cannot just give up on the story aspects in favor of whatever you're calling character-driven. Character-driven what? STORY.

They need to coexist properly for a full-orbed, satisfying, *complete* series, IMHO.

It's worth a rewatch, though, because it's only in that final season that things just fall off the rails in terms of story. Part of the reason we kept eagerly returning to this show each week, even rerouting other areas of our daily lives to make sure we didn't miss a current episode as soon as it was aired, was to see whether some of our most intriguing questions would be answered. We never really went into each episode thinking the entire series would end *without* those answers.

I'm with John McClane on this one: it's lazy writing. (Not the characters, the storyline.)

But still, I am rewatching (already on episode 3 of season 1).

[Sedai]

isn’t it kinda lazy to write yourself into a corner, tho? i think so. i mean, make a plan. i wouldn’t eat an elephant without a plan.

Fair, but I also see it as the guy not having the skill or experience to deal with it properly, From all accounts, he worked hiss ass off day and night on the show, which is the opposite of lazy. I think doing something poorly and being lazy aren't the same thing.

[John McClane]

Fair, but I also see it as the guy not having the skill or experience to deal with it properly, From all accounts, he worked hiss ass off day and night on the show, which is the opposite of lazy. I think doing something poorly and being lazy aren't the same thing.Wait only one guy wrote all of Lost? That explains why it’s a mess. Should have had a team of writers. lol

everything i’ve ever read says they knew exactly what their ending was gonna be right from the start. so i stand by what i said: lazy.

[Sedai]

Wait only one guy wrote all of Lost? That explains why it’s a mess. Should have had a team of writers. lol

everything i’ve ever read says they knew exactly what their ending was gonna be right from the start. so i stand by what i said: lazy.

No, they had other people writing episodes, but initially Damon got the job of doing the entire season breakdowns dumped in his lap. Later, Cuse came on to help him do it. Not sure how much input the rest of the staff writers had on the over-arching plot, but I am sure they had at least some input. The documentary I watched inferred Damon was the guy who had to take Abrams' hatch idea and come up with what was inside etc. and was the one that concocted all the Dharma Initiative stuff etc.

They come right out and say they thought the show wasn't getting picked up or would get canceled immediately, so they definitely didn't have the ending in mind right away.

The doc is called Letting Go. I will take what they say at face value since they are the ones that made the show. All the evidence points to the show being thought of as a failure from the start, and the network went as far as to fire the guy who greenlit the show at the beginning. I presume they did this before it became a smash hit.

I would be interested to see the info on them knowing the ending from the start and would be curious to see an interview with one of the showrunners where they state that.

[John-Connor]

4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/4877592832/h04937082/bingo

[Sedai]

Here is that doc, which is available on YT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePQxz-O1rYU

And just to be clear: I agree that Lost is a flawed show, doesn't stick the landing, and is incredibly divisive. I still love it!

[ynwtf]

I recall reading that they had planned the ending, at least to be close to what it was. I believe the interview was some time after the show''s end. The bit that sticks with me was the attitude like, how could we have NOT planned that as weird as it was!?

I'll try to find that article again. It was online. Could also be for a whole different show ;)

FWIW: I loved this series, start to finish. I adore it and try to watch it every few years. It's up with Breaking Bad, Deadwood, and Battlestar Gallactica (reboot) for me.

[Sedai]

Here is what AI is saying on Google:

"The creators, primarily Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, claimed to have a foundational vision for the series' conclusion, even before the pilot aired."

This is definitely false, as Cuse didn't get brought on board the show until midway through the creation of the first season.

"Carlton Cuse, who had previously worked with Lindelof on Nash Bridges [2], talked Lindelof out of quitting [3] and eventually joined Lost as another executive producer for the Season 1 episode "Solitary"."

I do recall them mentioning they wanted to end the show with the same shot that they started it with, with Jack lying in the bamboo looking at the camera, so OK, perhaps they had stuff like that in mind, but as far as all the details of the story up to that point, Lindelof's claims in the documentary above state that he had to go by the seat of his pants right away. Hence him trying to quit and Cuse having to talk him off a cliff, etc.

I find the idea that they had the whole ending planned out to be hard pill to swallow, since at the beginning they planned to for instance kill Jack off midway through the pilot, so they really had no idea where they were going with this thing.

"Lindelof J.J. and I made the impassioned plea as to how it’d be like killing Janet Leigh off in the middle of Psycho, suddenly switching perspectives, and it was Anthony Perkins’ movie. And [then-Touchstone Television president] Stephen McPherson said, ”There’s a difference between a movie and a television show. If you get the audience to love this guy over the first hour, killing him will make them feel like they cannot attach themselves to anybody else, because they can be plucked away at any time.” That was the first time that we fundamentally understood, ”Wow, this guy’s right.” So we went back to J.J.’s office and said, ”All right, what does the show look like if Jack survives?”

I will accept that they had at least a rough idea of where they show might end up, but no way they had any clue as to how crazy it would get and all the machinations that would develop.

How about this:

"Abrams We didn’t know in the pilot that Locke had been in a wheelchair. When we were working on the [series] scripts, Damon pitched me the idea."

This is a reveal from episode 4 of the first season, Walkabout.

But they had the end of the show ready to go?

Just makin' shit up, folks! ;)

That article states they were asked to come up (and shoot!) an ending JIC it became a TV movie - an idea they thought to be pretty absurd at the time, one that would never be satisfactory. They instead dug in and shot the now famous scene with Charlie asking "Guys, where are we??"

[ynwtf]

This may have been the article I was remembering:
https://www.vulture.com/article/lost-series-finale-oral-history-the-end.html

It's got a 2024 publish date, but comments at the end were made 3 years ago. That fits in the timeframe I probably read it. I've only skimmed through though. It looks familiar, but my memories posted earlier may be wrong :) memories n such....

They do point out that the first season was such a pace that questions were like, "WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO NEXT WEEK!!??" but they nod to concepts that took root in S1 for the ending.

[Austruck]

And just to be clear: I agree that Lost is a flawed show, doesn't stick the landing, and is incredibly divisive. I still love it!

Okay, NOW I see that we essentially agree! :D It's all good. And I'm enjoying the rewatch!

[TONGO]

Since I no longer do drugs I'll never rewatch LOST, because Id have to be stoned making fun of it with a group of friends to even consider it. I know! Lets present a mystery and at the end just say "All your theories were ass and thanks for the money - SUCKER! lulz!" What was lost wasn't the passengers, but 5 seasons worth of real time wasted on some mid level producers posing as writers having the audacity to knowingly just 'do stuff' to string us along and keep tuning in. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, then I'd have to believe pro wrestling outcomes aren't planned even after looking at the booking sheet. So sorry, I'm not going to make myelf believe in Santa Clause again because it was fun when I was young. So there.

[TONGO]

The ending of LOST made the ending of Game of Thrones look like it was written by Hawthorne.

[AKA23]

I think for me "Lost" is a great show and certainly one of the most creative and entertaining TV series that is within the sci-fi genre, but I do think the lesson for me of the show is not to overly complicate the plot. I think that was the main issue with "Lost". The characters were great, and the story remains interesting, and I'd agree it is a character-driven show in part, but the mythology around "Lost" just got too complex and there was really no way to fully tie in all of those stories to an understandable central plot thread (what was the deal with all of that random time travel?), so they just kind of gave up on doing that as the show went on, especially as the show came to a close in the last season or two, and they left much of the story unresolved in the series finale. I think had the show been a bit simpler, it would have been easier to follow, more satisfying, and better received as it came to a close.

[Austruck]

I'm currently up to season 1, episode 20. Am loving the rewatch. I'd forgotten how much fun those earlier seasons were. :) Everyone was so well cast for their parts, too. <3

[TONGO]

Well after my tantrum rant about LOST I now find myself hooked into a new show by the same creators, a show called FROM. It's on MGM+ and have the same feelings & curiosity i had like with LOSTs early seasons. People can't escape a small town due to some mystical mystery and monsters come out at night. I really hope they have something concrete at the end to explain it all.....but if not, I'll just enjoy the ride.

[Austruck]

Well after my tantrum rant about LOST I now find myself hooked into a new show by the same creators, a show called FROM. It's on MGM+ and have the same feelings & curiosity i had like with LOSTs early seasons. People can't escape a small town due to some mystical mystery and monsters come out at night. I really hope they have something concrete at the end to explain it all.....but if not, I'll just enjoy the ride.
Oh, I started that show when it first came out but didn't keep up with it. Is it a complete series or did it get shelved somewhere along the way?

I think it has the guy who plays Michael in Lost in it, yes?

[TONGO]

Oh, I started that show when it first came out but didn't keep up with it. Is it a complete series or did it get shelved somewhere along the way?

I think it has the guy who plays Michael in Lost in it, yes?
Austruck
It does, yes, and it's a series. I'm dialed-in too. Season 3 starts 9/22.
Anyone that loved LOST would really like this show. It's like LOST but with the F word, and they're not in Hawaii.

[Austruck]

Austruck
It does, yes, and it's a series. I'm dialed-in too. Season 3 starts 9/22.
Anyone that loved LOST would really like this show. It's like LOST but with the F word, and they're not in Hawaii.
I'll have to restart it and then continue! :)

[ynwtf]

I noticed LOST on a streaming option the other night and I got a bit giddy! I just have to figure out a time to devote to it soon =\

[Austruck]

I noticed LOST on a streaming option the other night and I got a bit giddy! I just have to figure out a time to devote to it soon =\

I own all the DVDs but streaming is so much more convenient, so I'm doing my rewatch via Netflix, where all the seasons currently reside. <3