Does Anyone Do Drugs?

[Hartagan7607]

I'm just wondering if anyone on this forum has done drugs or has tried it at least once.I've smoked weed, and that's it.

[OG-]

Crack ain't gonna smoke itself, sheit.

[The Silver Bullet]

Does Anyone Do Drugs?
Yes, I'm sure some people do.

[The Taxi Driver]

i did weed once thats about it. and you made this thread twice. were you on drugs and forgot you made it or something? just kidding

[John McClane]

Yes, I'm sure some people do.
:laugh: I was thinking the same thing when I read the thread title.

[MovieMaker5087]

Ten bucks says Hartigan's cop just waiting to bust us...

Whoever admits to it in this thread is taking a risk.

[jrs]

I'm just wondering if anyone on this forum has done drugs or has tried it at least once.

No. I'm smart enough not to. ;)

[Uncle Rico]

Well lets see....Drugs...Well I do weed almost everyday and during study hall i like to go to the bathroom and do cocaine lines of urinals. I also enjoy the occasional shot of heroin now and then plus I store it down on West 83rd st. in Cleveland ( its a crack house ) if you want some drugs from there jsut knock on the door and ask for a Mr. Dat Vu, he'll know what to do.

[susan]

i take drugs every day...prescription that is...one for allergies, one for cholesterol, one for high blood pressure and a preventative...

[jrs]

i take drugs every day.

The good kind. :D

[susan]

well, the legal kind anyway...

[AboveTheClouds]

Drugs are bad, mmmkay.

[Garrett]

I'm sure someone somewhere does drugs. We haven't been able to pinpoint their location yet, but once we do you'll be the first to know. Now back to you, Jim.

[Hondo333]

Sometimes me and a few freinds will get together and watch a few Ben Stiller films... But thats about it.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I'm just wondering if anyone on this forum has done drugs or has tried it at least once.I've smoked weed, and that's it.
Who needs drugs when God made the world possible to provide strawberry banana milkshakes and sweet and sour chicken?

[Nitzer]

I thought about smoking pot once, but changed my mind. Drug-free!

[HellboyUnleashed]

Drug Free is the way to be man.

[Yoda]

Best. Thread. Ever.

[linespalsy]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.

[The Silver Bullet]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
You should take up heroin. It's dreamy.

[SabreMan79]

The only drugs that I've taken are the kinds the doctors made me take.

[Yoda]

You should take up heroin. It's dreamy.Plus, when I take it, your posts (and films) suddenly make sense.

Burn!

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Best. Thread. Ever.
:up:
My favorite thing about it is that he posted it a second time, 12 minutes later.
I bet he forgot about the first time.

[OG-]

:up:
My favorite thing about it is that he posted it a second time, 12 minutes later.
I bet he forgot about the first time.

"Cocaine's a helluva drug."

[trotskyist]

I thought about smoking pot once, but changed my mind. Drug-free!

smoking pot occaisonally is all i do. and i quit that.

[lucy_jaimes]

Hmmm all i have done is smoked pot. but i am assessing whether or not to broaden my field and experiment with a few others. preferably coke or speed.

[The Silver Bullet]

Burn!
The films make the most sense when you're on acid.

[Tacitus]

I take yellow ones, which are much better than the small green ones.

Thanks for asking!

[The Sarge]

Coke about 4/5 times a year when myself and the lads have alldayers. And little fellas' when i go clubbing which is also about 4/5 times a year.

[Pyro Tramp]

Nothing wrong with smoking weed, safer than drinking in most cases anyway. I may just be niave, but i don't see what the big bad with it is.
Beers + Weed + Evil Dead 2 = good night.
In general I don't have a problem with soft recreational drug use, though the hard 'proper' drugs are something i don't really agree with but that's not to say i won't try them, you only live once.

[chicagofrog]

pot is not my thing.
drinking, yeah. smoking too, and it is a drug. a legal one. and an expensive and unhealthy one.
plus sleeping pills accompanied by vodka or bacardi = nice trip and inspiration before sleeping. plus at last one can sleep peacefully.

[trotskyist]

Hmmm all i have done is smoked pot. but i am assessing whether or not to broaden my field and experiment with a few others. preferably coke or speed.

lucy Jaimes ur a bad gurl.

[Sedai]

I may or may not have had some experience with this stuff in the past.

[Tacitus]

I may or may not have had some experience with this stuff in the past.

It's wrecked your memory then... :D

[jrs]

Who needs drugs when God made the world possible to provide strawberry banana milkshakes and sweet and sour chicken?

Nicely put.

[trotskyist]

sweet and sour pork for me :)

[SpoOkY]

There was this one time (bit hazy) where some friends of mine wandered out of a party onto the street and walked back into some other people's house, ok it sounds like a funny story but the people in the house called the cops and about 30 people got arrested. Half of the party-goers did a runner out of there, quite a few kids got pulled out of school by their parents afterwards and some got randomly searched by security at school. So from that point on I've avoided drugs.

After the initial crazy period I decided that drugs make you more outgoing or more relaxed and I'd rather be just whoever I am, though I reckon I've only had limited experience and I'd probably change my tune if I tried more but unless that happens I'm just gonna live in my blissful ignorance. There's no real reason to take drugs for me, so why else should I? Cause people who think they're cool take them at some party? nah that's just not me, unlike others I need a real reason :)

[Yoda]

:up:
My favorite thing about it is that he posted it a second time, 12 minutes later.
I bet he forgot about the first time.Indeed. You can't make this stuff up. And even if you could, you wouldn't want to.

The films make the most sense when you're on acid.Self-inflicted burn!

I may or may not have had some experience with this stuff in the past.Sedai '08?

To answer the guy's question, though: I think everyone here takes the red pill.

[allthatglitters]

I hope y'all are joking. But then again, I am naive.

[chicagofrog]

nope, you don't joke with drugs!

[Godsend]

Drugs are another way of saying that you're desperate

And I'm not desperate

Tu tu tu tu tu tu tu tu tu!

[Holden Pike]

Fu*kin' Narc.

[Godsend]

Fu*kin' Narc.

Do you do anything besides post, critisize others on their movie preferences, and watch movies?

:confused:

[Equilibrium]

Afghan Hash anyone?

[Holden Pike]

Do you do anything besides post, critisize others on their movie preferences, and watch movies?

Yes, I also enjoy long walks on the beach, Jazz music and taking cooking classes at the local Community College every third Wednesday.

And no, I won't date you.

[Equilibrium]

Yes, I also enjoy long walks on the beach, Jazz music and taking cooking classes at the local Community College every third Wednesday.

And no, I won't date you.

And no, you aren't funny.

[firegod]

sweet and sour pork for me :)

REAL sweet and sour, not that American ketchup cherry sauce crap.

[Othelo]

I've done pot, acid (once) and coke (once).

Got too old for the limiting lethargy of pot.

Had a good trip and didn't need another.

Coke did NOTHING for me, whatsoever.

Pot is the only drug I don't feel either way about, but it (after about the 5th or so time) has rapidly diminishing returns and should be discarded. I don't recommended trying any mind altering drugs (if you freely choose to) until one is well into ones late 20's. It is just early enough to have a mind expanding effect and just late enough for you to have built up a tolerance for the frightening things you might otherwise see.

I DO NOT under ANY circumstances recommend or promote the use of any form of Cocaine, I got very lucky that it did not effect me and I think I was stupid for ever trying it. Same goes for any drug that "makes the pain go away" unless it is prescribed.

[Eyes]

I'm proud to say that i've never taken any drugs outside of a few over-the-counter stuff for headaches and what not. And i have a running bet with a friend that i will not drink while i'm in college.

[Othelo]

I'm proud to say that i've never taken any drugs outside of a few over-the-counter stuff for headaches and what not. And i have a running bet with a friend that i will not drink while i'm in college.

No offence but...

I get a real goose up my back when I hear I'm proud of ...Being, never being, doing, never doing...etc...
I understand the pride in not being a sheep and going along with the crowd, don't get me wrong, but when it sounds like an indictment of those who do...or who are .... It bothers me.

Its like being proud of being White, or Black or a Girl or a Boy or Gay or Straight whatever.
The difference between those "conditions" and the decision to do or not to do drugs is that it is a choice rather than a condition, I realize this...and accept it, I am not proud of my drug use but I am glad I did. It (they) were experiences that shaped me, made more more understanding and tolerant of those caught up in the web of abuse and addiction.

If you do not choose to, good for you, I did and I wouldn't change a thing. Well maybe that Coke thing....but I digress...

[Yoda]

Its like being proud of being White, or Black or a Girl or a Boy or Gay or Straight whatever.
The difference between those "conditions" and the decision to do or not to do drugs is that it is a choice rather than a condition, I realize this...and accept it, I am not proud of my drug use but I am glad I did. It (they) were experiences that shaped me, made more more understanding and tolerant of those caught up in the web of abuse and addiction.It's nothing like those things, for the reason you yourself mentioned: it is based on choice. It's also a perfectly reasonable thing to be proud of avoiding. The fact that some people may need to try drugs to see the "web of abuse and addiction" you refer only makes the point further; who wouldn't be proud of seeing (and avoiding) that without having to dabble in it?

[Othelo]

It's nothing like those things, for the reason you yourself mentioned: it is based on choice. It's also a perfectly reasonable thing to be proud of avoiding. The fact that some people may need to try drugs to see the "web of abuse and addiction" you refer only makes the point further; who wouldn't be proud of seeing (and avoiding) that without having to dabble in it?

I'm not advocating drug use. In my experience though, walking a mile in someones shoes, or even a few baby steps, brings forth an awareness that cannot truly exist without that experience.

Basically I don't believe there is any "pride" in avoiding experiences that "may" be harmful, to me, its kind of an empty pride, it just is what it is, a choice.

The word "Pride" rarely does not hit me in a negative way, its hard to explain why. Being proud of personal accomplishments, what you have DONE as opposed to what you are, your legacy, or progenitors legacy or even your avoidance of experiences out of fear, to me, is a cowardly pride. It does not take into account what you HAVE done, just what your ancestors have done or what you have avoided.

As a matter of fact, it is not pride at all but arrogance. Not in all cases (and probably not this one) but "just say no" is stupid. Know the risks, be old enough to choose and do so, there is no pride in that just the business of life.

I'm not baiting here, that is not my intention. Just trying to explain why I believe “Pride” is the wrong word here.

[r3port3r66]

Well then, how does the word "shame" hit you?

[Othelo]

Well then, how does the word "shame" hit you?

It hits me like I never should have said anything in the first place...how's that.

[Richard Hell]

Well I find it extrmely weird that today I had the worst expierence with drug today. Ill never do drugs I sware to god after seeing this. During lunch my chum and I went into th e library and we were meeting our freidn Zach and Matt Pools brother. Matt's brother who I dont know does Herione and is an extreme addict serious ****. Liekout of a movie. It saddens me. so any way we all sit down in the library and Zach starts lining up a coke line. My friend who was also with us Arron is a recovering coke and crack addict. So in short words Zach snorts it Matt's bro trys it for the first time and then I sit and watch. Well my friend Arron takes a little and puts it hi mouth. Anopther operson was there watched them do and it so happened she was in our last class. Arron got nervous and he gets panic attacks. So while I was taking a pi** he comes storming in the bathroom and before he says one things he starts throwing up. Good god that did it for me. It was so surreal. Like I had seen it on TV. I was so I cant explan. Im glad that I dont do drugs and the most have done is smoked some pot and nothing more.

[r3port3r66]

It hits me like I never should have said anything in the first place...how's that.

Curious.

[Garrett]

Oh my god, he's full of holes!

[The Silver Bullet]

And no, you aren't funny.
Yes, he is.

[jrs]

I hope y'all are joking. But then again, I am naive.


I feel sorry for everyone on here. :(

[LordSlaytan]

Um...









...no comment. :indifferent:







Are you a cop or sumpin'? :suspicious:

[jrs]

Um..Are you a cop or sumpin'?

Um.. no. :confused:

[LordSlaytan]

Um.. no. :confused:I meant the thread starter, J.

[Yoda]

I'm not advocating drug use. In my experience though, walking a mile in someones shoes, or even a few baby steps, brings forth an awareness that cannot truly exist without that experience.Perhaps some people are more naturally empathetic, and don't need that kind of direct experience. As you've pointed out, not all choices are one size fits all, and thus it can't really be said that people who avoid drugs are missing out on an "awareness" that you claim to possess.

That said, I find experience for mere experience's sake is often an excuse to do something, more than a genuine reason.


Basically I don't believe there is any "pride" in avoiding experiences that "may" be harmful, to me, its kind of an empty pride, it just is what it is, a choice.And choices can be wise, or foolish. If someone believes they have made a wise choice, pride is a natural reaction, isn't it?


The word "Pride" rarely does not hit me in a negative way, its hard to explain why. Being proud of personal accomplishments, what you have DONE as opposed to what you are, your legacy, or progenitors legacy or even your avoidance of experiences out of fear, to me, is a cowardly pride. It does not take into account what you HAVE done, just what your ancestors have done or what you have avoided.You're making some unfounded assumptions about others here; primarily, that those who avoid drugs do so out of fear, rather than simple thoughtfulness. As you say, we should educate ourselves, and when we do we see plenty of tangible reasons not to do drugs. You say cowardly, I say rational.


As a matter of fact, it is not pride at all but arrogance. Not in all cases (and probably not this one) but "just say no" is stupid. Know the risks, be old enough to choose and do so, there is no pride in that just the business of life.

I'm not baiting here, that is not my intention. Just trying to explain why I believe “Pride” is the wrong word here.If a person can be proud of doing something good, there's no reason they cannot be proud of avoiding something they believe to be bad, especially if that thing is something many people fall into to various degrees.

You're trying to draw a distinction between pride through action and pride through inaction that I don't think exists. What is honesty, for example, if not the absence of dishonesty? I don't see why being proud at avoiding a perceived negative is fundamentally different from any other kind of pride.

[jrs]

I meant the thread starter, J.

Oh. :p

[lor83b]

I'm just wondering if anyone on this forum has done drugs or has tried it at least once.I've smoked weed, and that's it.

Why do you want to know? :skeptical:

[Othelo]

Perhaps some people are more naturally empathetic, and don't need that kind of direct experience. As you've pointed out, not all choices are one size fits all, and thus it can't really be said that people who avoid drugs are missing out on an "awareness" that you claim to possess.

That said, I find experience for mere experience's sake is often an excuse to do something, more than a genuine reason.

Yes but experience for experience sake is not what I was talking about here, that kind of experience is uninformed, unwise and stupid in the context of the excuse you mentioned.

Read my post again, I do not claim to have some extraordinary insight into things I have experienced, but I do believe I have more empathy for having them. I do believe in natural empathy, but that only takes you so far and is subject to your own experiences which may or may not be relevant to others.


And choices can be wise, or foolish. If someone believes they have made a wise choice, pride is a natural reaction, isn't it?

Personally I think any kind of pride is dangerous. Yes it is a natural reaction but I think that what pride does is set you apart from the human experience. Pride is a deadly sin is it not? And vanity is just a step away from pride. Having a sense of accomplishment, sharing the experience or in this case the means to avoid experience is a positive thing. To me pride implies chest beating solitude, a "look at me" mentality that does no good for anyone. Pride has made us go into War presumptively, divides us according to Race, Creed, Religion and Sex and turns us into singular beings unable to share our experiences with each other because we are too far stuck in it to see that others exist. In a word I believe pride is a negative thing.


You're making some unfounded assumptions about others here; primarily, that those who avoid drugs do so out of fear, rather than simple thoughtfulness. As you say, we should educate ourselves, and when we do we see plenty of tangible reasons not to do drugs. You say cowardly, I say rational.


I did not say that the choice not to do drugs was cowardly. I said that hiding behind pride was. Choosing to do or avoid things based upon fear is also cowardly, doing or not doing something with full awareness, is neither cowardly nor fearful, its smart. That is not what I'm talking about here and it never has been.


If a person can be proud of doing something good, there's no reason they cannot be proud of avoiding something they believe to be bad, especially if that thing is something many people fall into to various degrees.

You're trying to draw a distinction between pride through action and pride through inaction that I don't think exists. What is honesty, for example, if not the absence of dishonesty? I don't see why being proud at avoiding a perceived negative is fundamentally different from any other kind of pride.

No, the distinction I'm drawing is one between pride and reason. Pride is unreasonable because it divides, excludes and divorces one from the experience of others. Logic and reason make for informed choices, taking into account the feelings and experiences of others. I can't in all fairness say that all of the choices I have made were logical and informed. But I have been dammed sure to examine after the fact why and what drove me to make them, too much examination sometimes, which admittedly is not a good thing.

Pride, arrogance and vanity are all inexorably linked and they are singular experiences, in this context they are also dangerous ones. My philosophy has always been to share my experiences with others without pride as a barrier, a hindrance, of course being human that does not always work. Sometimes I feel that my experiences or my philosophy are somehow superior to others, this may be one of those times, but I always check myself and contemplate my decisions. Either before or after making them.

[Othelo]

Well then, how does the word "shame" hit you?

I may have misunderstood your question. If it was a serious one and not just a flippant gesture I apologize for my reaction. I took your question as an insult to my position and if that wasn't what it was (I'll assume for the sake of argument that it wasn't) heres the short answer to it.

In retrospect "shame" is only the flip side of pride, equally dangerous and it belies an uninformed feeling of regret. A rational examination of "what you have done" in your life, good or bad implies no pride and no shame. Apologies should not be issued for things done in bad judgment, out of fear and neglect without knowing full well what and why something was done in the first place. In the absence of either pride or shame, a person can truly be sorry for whatever trespass they have made, and make true amends. If you are shameful, that implies to me, that you are unaware of the repercussions of your actions. Being shameful and being truly contrite are not the same thing. Shame is, like pride, an unfortunate result of a life unexamined.

[chicagofrog]

Personally I think any kind of pride is dangerous.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005OW0K.01._PE_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Yoda]

Yes but experience for experience sake is not what I was talking about here, that kind of experience is uninformed, unwise and stupid in the context of the excuse you mentioned.In my experience, this isn't so. Some people make a concious decision that they want to experience as much as possible. It's not logical, in my opinion, but it's not necessarily uninformed.


Read my post again, I do not claim to have some extraordinary insight into things I have experienced, but I do believe I have more empathy for having them. I do believe in natural empathy, but that only takes you so far and is subject to your own experiences which may or may not be relevant to others.I didn't use the word "extraordinary" -- I simply referred to an increased "awareness" that you have laid claim to. And are you not proud of that increased awareness? You don't seem to regret it, and if you were completely neutral on the subject, you wouldn't have said anything to begin with.

How far natural empathy takes a person is dependent on the person and their circumstances. That's my point: you speak as if it is a universal truth that certain things, like drugs, need to be taken to understand the plight of those who are dependent on them. I'm saying that there's not much basis for that claim, and that even if there was, it strikes me as a very poor reason to use them. Would you apply that logic to other unreputable things?


Personally I think any kind of pride is dangerous. Yes it is a natural reaction but I think that what pride does is set you apart from the human experience. Pride is a deadly sin is it not? And vanity is just a step away from pride. Having a sense of accomplishment, sharing the experience or in this case the means to avoid experience is a positive thing. To me pride implies chest beating solitude, a "look at me" mentality that does no good for anyone. Pride has made us go into War presumptively, divides us according to Race, Creed, Religion and Sex and turns us into singular beings unable to share our experiences with each other because we are too far stuck in it to see that others exist. In a word I believe pride is a negative thing.Yes, pride is dangerous, but the discussion is about whether or not pride is warranted for not having done drugs. If you're against the entire concept of pride, then condemning a specific instance of it is rather pointless.

You said that pride "implies" something to you. I'd like to suggest, at this point, that what you're arguing against is a caricaturized form of pride. Maybe you've known a great many people whose pride bounded over into arrogance. So have I. But the fact that pride can be taken too far doesn't mean it is never warranted, or wholly bad. Thoughtfulness can become worry, attention to detail can become obsession. Even love can become jealousy. These things are not rendered inherently bad because they can be abused, and neither is pride.


I did not say that the choice not to do drugs was cowardly. I said that hiding behind pride was. Choosing to do or avoid things based upon fear is also cowardly, doing or not doing something with full awareness, is neither cowardly nor fearful, its smart. That is not what I'm talking about here and it never has been.What is "hiding behind pride," and what reason do you have for suspecting that the user in question's pride is not genuine?


No, the distinction I'm drawing is one between pride and reason. Pride is unreasonable because it divides, excludes and divorces one from the experience of others. Logic and reason make for informed choices, taking into account the feelings and experiences of others. I can't in all fairness say that all of the choices I have made were logical and informed. But I have been dammed sure to examine after the fact why and what drove me to make them, too much examination sometimes, which admittedly is not a good thing.I hate to be so blunt, but at this point I have almost no idea what you're saying. I don't see any inherent connection between pride and reason (people can be proud for both reasonable reasons, or unreasonable ones).

The fact that pride can divide is not necessarily a knock against it, either. Any firmly held belief will inevitably divide you from a great number of people. But clearly, holding no principles is not a viable alternative. To lament divisions, then, is to lament the human condition and not pride, specifically.


Pride, arrogance and vanity are all inexorably linked and they are singular experiences, in this context they are also dangerous ones. My philosophy has always been to share my experiences with others without pride as a barrier, a hindrance, of course being human that does not always work. Sometimes I feel that my experiences or my philosophy are somehow superior to others, this may be one of those times, but I always check myself and contemplate my decisions. Either before or after making them.You've said it yourself: it is inevitable that we feel pride when we believe our philosophy is superior. And we always do think it's superior, or else we wouldn't believe it to begin with. What choice do we have? Either you are proud of something you believe in, shameful of it, or completely neutral, in which case your belief cannot be all that important to you.

Also, it seems to me backwards to examine mistakes after they happen. It's sensible, sure, but not as sensible as examining things beforehand. It is wise to learn from your mistakes, but wiser still to avoid them altogether, which is why pride expressed for avoiding drugs is perfectly reasonable.

[Yoda]

In retrospect "shame" is only the flip side of pride, equally dangerous and it belies an uninformed feeling of regret. A rational examination of "what you have done" in your life, good or bad implies no pride and no shame. Apologies should not be issued for things done in bad judgment, out of fear and neglect without knowing full well what and why something was done in the first place. In the absence of either pride or shame, a person can truly be sorry for whatever trespass they have made, and make true amends. If you are shameful, that implies to me, that you are unaware of the repercussions of your actions. Being shameful and being truly contrite are not the same thing. Shame is, like pride, an unfortunate result of a life unexamined.I know this was not addressed to me, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

I think you have it entirely backwards: why would being shameful imply a lack of awareness of the repercussions of your actions? Wouldn't it imply the exact opposite? You cannot feel genuine shame of something you're wholly ignorant of. Shame comes when you are concious of a failing; not unaware of it.

Forgive me, as I'm not trying to psychoanalyze anyone here, but it's beginning to sound as if you're simply uncomfortable with concepts like pride and shame because they imply judgement. Perhaps you fear these kinds of judgements will be unfavorable to you; I don't know. That's the only reason I can think of for someone trying to change these concepts into synonyms for ignorance.

[Godsend]

Pride, Shame, Embarassment etc is only judgemental by ones character

*back to his corner*

[blibblobblib]

I enjoy the green. Helps with my creativity.

As for anything else...:suspicious:

[joshuafor]

Not recently. Only thing I really stick with now is alcohol.

[John McClane]

No, I don't do drugs and I don't plain on doing any. I do like cherry flavored cigars though. Courtesy of my dad. :)

[undercoverlover]

no drugs for me, my brain has trouble functioning properly as it is. I have an incurable disease.







Stupidity

[Sexy Celebrity]

Let's have a D.A.R.E. class... right here at MoFo. Caitlyn can teach it.

[Caitlyn]

Hmmm all i have done is smoked pot. but i am assessing whether or not to broaden my field and experiment with a few others. preferably coke or speed.


If you care anything at all about your next of kin, there are a few things you should do before you "broaden your field of experiment" (as you put it) --

1) Document and photograph any distinguishing birth marks, tattoos, etc.
2) Make out a will….
3) Prearrange and PAY for your own funeral…

I've always thought it was extremely presumptuous of anyone to think they have the right to use a substance that they know could very well take their life… and leave their mess for someone else to clean up and pay for…

[r3port3r66]

Yes Cait' is right. Before you decide to celebrate what you think is a rite of passage toward maturity by "trying" any substance, be prepared:

Be prepared to start something that will take a few years to finish, i.e addiction.

Be prepared to meet some people that can sell you what you want, but live in a part of town you may have to walk to in the dark.

Be prepared to ruin your relationships with friends and family because you can never tell them you have, or are taking drugs.

Be prepared to get ripped off of your hard-earned money.

Be prepared to lose a job or two; two days--or even one night--of "partying" usually takes 3 days to recover from.

Be prepared to lose some relationships.

Be prepared to start craving that which made you feel so good for one night and not know where to find it again, leaving your body with an excruciating craving.

Be prepared to lose your appetite, resulting in hardship on kidneys, liver and blood cells.

Be prepared to lose short-term memory that results in poor job performance and personal tasks.

Be prepared for really bad breath, skin blemishes and body odor.

Be prepared for people who suspect you are, or were on drugs and try not to become paranoid.

Be prepared to encounter law officers who know what your up to and want you off the street.

If you are prepared for the things I have mentioned, you should have no problems starting what will certainly be a passage to your maturity you won't soon forget. Just be prepared, that's all, because it WILL happen to you.

[John McClane]

Man this thread is getting educational know. Time to bring in the kiddies. :) Now son this is what your mind is on drugs. *points to self* And that's what you mind is not on drugs. *points to screen* Now see how that's better. *falls off chair for third time tonight* Well, I wonder what that kid will think.

[r3port3r66]

Well that all depends on who is smarter, the son or the parent. It also depends on who thinks they are smarter, the son or the parent.

[linespalsy]

I'd hardly call being browbeaten with a parade of horribles "educational." Caitlyn's argument (about civil responsibility) is the only really compelling one against recreational (or any) drug use that I've seen. "Be prepared to turn into a horrible, stinky monster" just strikes me as hyperbole, all due respect Reporter.

[r3port3r66]

I understand what you are saying linespalsy. My intention for posting a list of preparations was not intended to be educational. Most people that have tried a recreational drug might say that my list is not exaggerated, but informed. of course my list may look as though I might be trying to sway someone from using a drug, but my intention is only prepare a reader for what to expect if they do. Not to say that the whole list will apply to them, but to say be prepared for more than just a thrill.

[Anonymous Last]

There's this bummy stinky lady who comes in my place of employment everyday. I don't know her real name, though she does answer to Lippy!

Yup! She's a walking sack of heroin. She's a good character at times in her euphoria state of mind. Hell let's be honest, she's no role model for the kids here. Always drowsy falling a sleep behind the shelves, drooling a big slob of her secret recipe of respiratory depression down her cheek, squinting her constricted pupils and throwing up all over the place. My supervisors get mad at me when I try to give her a bar of soap. I guess they never whistle when they cut into their bar of Irish Spring in the morning.

Anyhizzahoo! I'll tell her that you all said hi!

[r3port3r66]

Perhaps her awareness AL is only limited what's going on at the moment and not what you subtly do to let her know you care. And perhaps your co-workers aren't sure how to express that they care too and leave it up to you. Of course, a street junkie doesn't belong in a place of business, but that doesn't mean she is not capable of feeling. Perhaps she returns only because she feels that one day you will realize she needs help, but until then she will keep refusing the soap. Yeah, let her know I said hello.

[projectMayhem]

No offence but...

I get a real goose up my back when I hear I'm proud of ...Being, never being, doing, never doing...etc...
I understand the pride in not being a sheep and going along with the crowd, don't get me wrong, but when it sounds like an indictment of those who do...or who are .... It bothers me.

Its like being proud of being White, or Black or a Girl or a Boy or Gay or Straight whatever.
The difference between those "conditions" and the decision to do or not to do drugs is that it is a choice rather than a condition, I realize this...and accept it, I am not proud of my drug use but I am glad I did. It (they) were experiences that shaped me, made more more understanding and tolerant of those caught up in the web of abuse and addiction.

If you do not choose to, good for you, I did and I wouldn't change a thing. Well maybe that Coke thing....but I digress...

Best. Post. Ever. That is EXACTLY the way I feel, its creepy.

[chicagofrog]

My supervisors get mad at me when I try to give her a bar of soap.
I'll tell her that you all said hi!

maybe it's just they didn't like Fight Club.
and yes, greet her from yr froggy! :)

[Anonymous Last]

Today I saw her sitting on the steps of the building that I work in. I said hi and she called me the milk man. WTF!? I just replied by telling her to have a good day. Then I turned the corner and scratched my head, because yesterday she called me the devil.


Oh well!

[Anonymous Last]

Hey froggy buddy!

Here's a new av for your disposal!

http://photobucket.com/albums/y196/tjeyeam/th_KermitsJoint.jpg

...appropriate for the drug thread!

[chicagofrog]

mille mercis à mon "Anonyme" ami!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
y muchas gracias etc etc etc............. :kiss:

[Caitlyn]

"Most likely you will end up with criminal history, not to mention the constant pain in your chest from inhaling butane from the lighter, the black soot your always choking up from the ashes, calluses on your thumbs, blisters on your lips. Safe sex will no longer be important to you so you will most likely carry and spread diseases . And most people on crack are not just on crack they will take anything to take the edge off. Oh the reason why you see people throwing up, urinating and or defecating out in the opening is because crack attacks you're central nervous system and a large part of the high is physiological the mere thought of getting a hit will instantly make you have to take a dump. (it's also often cut with a baby laxative) immediately after taking a hit you may have to throw up depending on how pure the coke is. And in you're mind you might miss something if you leave long enough to pee, or may be just too afraid to move because you just know something or someone is going to get you. That's just beginning. " ~ Anonymous ex- crack addict.

[Anonymous Last]

"Most likely you will end up with criminal history, not to mention the constant pain in your chest from inhaling butane from the lighter, the black soot your always choking up from the ashes, calluses on your thumbs, blisters on your lips. Safe sex will no longer be important to you so you will most likely carry and spread diseases . And most people on crack are not just on crack they will take anything to take the edge off. Oh the reason why you see people throwing up, urinating and or defecating out in the opening is because crack attacks you're central nervous system and a large part of the high is physiological the mere thought of getting a hit will instantly make you have to take a dump. (it's also often cut with a baby laxative) immediately after taking a hit you may have to throw up depending on how pure the coke is. And in you're mind you might miss something if you leave long enough to pee, or may be just too afraid to move because you just know something or someone is going to get you. That's just beginning. " ~ Anonymous ex- crack addict.

Damn! That's messed up. I guess you can also kiss all your adrenaline or epinephrine away...byebye!

[Eyes]

~ Anonymous ex- crack addict
Nony is a crack addict?

[Caitlyn]

Nony is a crack addict?


*sigh*

[Anonymous Last]

Nony is a crack addict?
What you talkin' bout Willis?








Sometimes...

http://photobucket.com/albums/y196/tjeyeam/th_3b558866.jpg

[chicagofrog]

wow, i had never thought of crack addiction in those terms...
wow

[Eyes]

i figured he'd do the other kind of crack. y'know, the (oYo) kind

[Naisy]

Never have, Never will lets just say its a personal preference that im against it, seen to much **** happen because of drugs, it aint fun.

[Sedai]

SPark it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



<///////////////////////////*~~~~~~~~~

[chicagofrog]

<///////////////////////////*~~~~~~~~~

oh ******! still another alphabet for me to learn!! :rolleyes:

[Henry The Kid]

Wow, at least I don't know most of you in real life. Quite the judgmental bunch.

Also, note the ambiguity of using the word "most." Do I know some of you and haven't told you, or do I mean some of you I wouldn't mind knowing? I have no answers. Only questions. And drugs.

[casa]

Yes Cait' is right. Before you decide to celebrate what you think is a rite of passage toward maturity by "trying" any substance, be prepared:

so if i "try" a drug my life is pretty much ruined? your post seemed to describe people with full fledged addictions, not people who use drugs recreationally, not to mention it sounded like straight up propoganda. :rolleyes:

[Loner]

Illegal drugs are so Nineties, legal drugs are where it's at.

You got to work it like Elvis.

Get a copy of Physician's Desk Reference, find the drug you want, and tell Dr. Feelgood you have symptoms that can be aided by your favorites.

[Anonymous Last]

Movies are my drugs!


I think I need another hit.

[Yoda]

so if i "try" a drug my life is pretty much ruined? your post seemed to describe people with full fledged addictions, not people who use drugs recreationallyTim didn't say those things would happen, but that you should be prepared for them to happen. He's rightfully pointing out that recreational use runs the risk of becoming habitual use. That's why he put "trying" in quotation marks.

not to mention it sounded like straight up propoganda. :rolleyes:That's a loaded term, and what it sounds like is irrelevant to whether or not it's accurate.

I'm intrigued (and a little surprised) at how downright defensive some people are getting over the fact that most of us here don't think much of drug use. While a few have painted drug use in overly paranoid terms, perhaps, I think that paranoia is easily matched by the kneejerk offense in response.

[chicagofrog]

I think I need another hit.

you asked for it!
http://scd.mm-b.yimg.com/image/1316047208

[chicagofrog]

wanted to post this in the Quotes thread, but hei, it suits here too, even better.


Author - Paracelsus

German - alles ist Gift und nichts ist Gift; der Unterschied besteht in der Dosierung
Albanian - asgjë nuk është helm e gjithçka është helm, ndryshimi është tek doza
Aragones - cosa ye solimán, y tot ye solimá ; a esferenzia ye en a dosis
Basque - ezer ez da pozoi, dena da pozoi: dosian dago koxka
Bolognese - gnínta l é vlaggn e incôsa l'é vlaggn; la diferänza l'é int la dôSa
Brazilian Portuguese - nada é veneno e tudo é veneno, a diferença está na dose
Bresciano - nient l'è veleno e tot l'è veleno: el depend de la dose
Breton - netra n'eo ampoezon ha pep tra zo ampoezon; gant ar muzuliadur emañ an dalc'h
Calabrese - nenti è velenu e tuttu è velenu;la differenza è nilla dosi
Catalan - res no és verí i tot és verí; la diferència es troba en la dosi
Cornish - travyth nyns yw gwenyn ha puptra yw gwenyn; y'n müsür yma an dybarth
Croatian - ništa nije otrov, i sve je otrov; razlika je u doziranju
Danish - alt er gift, og intet er gift, forskellen ligger i doseringen
Dutch - alles is gif en niets is gif; het verschil schuilt in de dosering
English - nothing is poison and everything is poison; the difference is in the dose
Estonian - kõik on mürk ja miski pole mürk - see on kogus, mis asja ära määrab.
Finnish - mikään ei ole myrkkyä ja kaikki on myrkkyä; ero on annoksessa
French - rien n'est poison et tout est poison, c'est une question de dosage
Furlan - nuje al è velen e dut al è velen; la diference jè inte purizion
Galician - nada é veleno e todo é veleno; a diferencia é a dose
German - alles ist Gift und nichts ist Gift; der Unterschied besteht in der Dosierung
Griko Salentino - tìpoti en veleno ce olo en veleno: i differenza stèi is posson vaddhi
Hungarian - semmi sem méreg és minden méreg; a különbség a dózison múlik
Italian - niente è veleno e tutto è veleno; la differenza è nella dose
Judeo Spanish - nada es tosigo, i todo es tosigo; la diferensia esta en la doza
Ladin - nia é da tuesse y dut é da tuesse, la desvalivanza é la dosazion
Latvian - nekas nav inde un inde var bût viss; atškirîba ir tikai deva
Limburgian - al ès vergif ên niks ès vergif, 't ès zjus 'n kwêste van doziëring
Mapunzugun - chem rume ta fuñapuegelay wej kom fuñapuegey re may ta tuntekentuael ta che ta welulekey
Mudnés - gnìnta l'è velèin e tòtt lìè velèin; la diferèinza l'è in dla dôs
Neapolitan - nient'è tuòsseco e tutt'è tuòsseco; 'a defferenza stà int'â dosa
Papiamentu - nada ta veneno i tur kos ta veneno; e diferensia ta den e dosis
Parmigiano - gnenta l'é vlen e tut l'é vlen; al dipenda 'd la dose
Polish - nic nie jest trucizna i wszystko jest trucizna, róznica jest w dawce...
Portuguese - nada é veneno e tudo é veneno; a diferença está na dose
Romagnolo - e' tosicc l'è unquel, e tota al robi la è tossicc; l'è la misoura ad fé murtel e' tosicc
Sicilian - nenti è vilenu e tuttu è vilenu; 'a differenza sta 'nt' 'a dosi
Spanish - nada es veneno, y todo es veneno; la diferencia está en la dosis
Swedish - allt och inget är giftigt, det är mängden som avgör
Umbro-Sabino - gnente è vilinu e tuttu è vilinu; ra defferenza sta ne ra dose
Venetian - gnente xe velen e tuto xe velen; la diferensa sta ne la dose
Welsh - mae pob dim yn wenwyn ac nid oes dim sy'n wenwyn; yn y dos mae'r gwahaniaeth
Zeneize - ninte l'é teuscego e tutto l'é teuscego; a differensa a l'é inta quantitæ

[undercoverlover]

^^^ good point my amphibian friend

[Anonymous Last]

The difference is in the dose...I like that.

Oh, before I forgets...that was not the hit I had in mind though it did the trick.

Great timing on that!

[Henry The Kid]

I'm intrigued (and a little surprised) at how downright defensive some people are getting over the fact that most of us here don't think much of drug use. While a few have painted drug use in overly paranoid terms, perhaps, I think that paranoia is easily matched by the kneejerk offense in response.

I think you underestimate just how out of proportion things are being blown in this thread.

[chicagofrog]

that was not the hit I had in mind though it did the trick.


hei, always ready to help! :)

[r3port3r66]

Tim didn't say those things would happen, but that you should be prepared for them to happen. He's rightfully pointing out that recreational use runs the risk of becoming habitual use. That's why he put "trying" in quotation marks.

Yes, I think Yoda interpreted my remarks correctly.

Here in California, if you're not prepared for an earthquake, you may not survive it. Not that one will occur, and not that I won't survive if one does, but being prepared for what may happen can sometimes make all the difference between life and death.

[Black Mamba]

Yes I do take drugs for recreational use. Weed, alcohol and charlie are the only ones I do at the moment.

[r3port3r66]

You know what they say; " Charlie is a gateway drug that leads to doing Linus on a mirror!"

OK, I give; what is "charlie"?!

[Anonymous Last]

You know what they say; " Charlie is a gateway drug that leads to doing Linus on a mirror!"

OK, I give; what is "charlie"?!
I don't know but I did like the Peanuts thing you just did.

[Golgot]

You know what they say; " Charlie is a gateway drug that leads to doing Linus on a mirror!"

OK, I give; what is "charlie"?!

You were sniffing down exactly the right line r3. He's talking about coke.

One that i reckon is a mug's game as a rule (no offence BM), but Froggy has already given the best retort to that (and how very restrained and Apollonian it was too - 'everything in moderation' ;))

The passions on this thread are probably past moderating tho ;).

As someone who's dabbled with most things except heroin (and wallowed in others til i was awash in serotonin), i'd say i subscribe to the try-with-your-eyes-open point of view. Which sort of agrees and disagrees with the more hardcore views put forward by both sides in this lifestyle divide.

I'd say there's some good in trying many of these things, but plenty of bad in making them your life-spring. Sip from time to time, but don't slip into making them what shapes your 'daily' mind.

And all that :)

[r3port3r66]

I'd say there's some good in trying many of these things, but plenty of bad in making them your life-spring. Sip from time to time, but don't slip into making them what shapes your 'daily' mind.

Very good advice!

You know, I had another thought that may be controversial here;
Does a person's intellegence figure into the equation of addiction or abuse? Does a smarter person understand the purpose of moderation? Perhaps it is a persons age then that makes them wiser because of experience. I mean who beyond 30 still smokes? (OK, I do, but I never claimed to be smart!)

[Tacitus]

I mean who beyond 30 still smokes?

We're a dying breed...

[r3port3r66]

Ah yes, the "Buy 2 get one free" breed!

[Tacitus]

I can give up anytime I want, honest.

But need a wife with a steely glare and large rolling pin (well, that's how I managed last time ;) ) to help me on the way.

[r3port3r66]

Heck, don't go through the trouble, just date a chick with a steely glare who smokes (preferably your brand)!

[Golgot]

Very good advice!

You know, I had another thought that may be controversial here;
Does a person's intellegence figure into the equation of addiction or abuse? Does a smarter person understand the purpose of moderation? Perhaps it is a persons age then that makes them wiser because of experience. I mean who beyond 30 still smokes? (OK, I do, but I never claimed to be smart!)

Heheheh, ah... the smoking thing :blush:

Yeah, i like to think it's coz i started down that smokey-path when i still had my mind wide shut that i still struggle to kick that nefarious sh*t. (That drug's still got me mainly licked, dammit. Damn natural-opioid-release :grrr: ;))

See, there's the funny thing tho - on the intelligence thing... the only obvious influence 'intelligence' should have is in consciously making sure you don't get hooked in the first place. But... the path that takes people to dependancy's depths is a complex thing methinks...

Some studies suggest that only 30% of heroin users become addicts. Is that coz the non-addicts consciously know when to step back? - is it coz they're not biologically predisposed to addiction's trap? - is it coz their other life habits mean they can manage their chemical-spiritual self, so they don't need to live in heroin's (etc's) den of all-round ill-health?

Dunno. I'm guessing it might be a mix of those three. Addiction is actually such a loose term that, whether the risk is getting hooked chemically or habitually, those three things might define your addiction-evading possiblities: Your life strategies, environment, and biological tendencies...

I reckon some people are more prone to depression than others - i know some people have to deal with more **** than others - and i'm sure that having both those physical and social situations together makes you more likely to fall at addictions door than others are.

To my mind, it's the people who overcome those combined snares and traps every day that are paragons of 'intelligence' at its best - so in those terms, i'd say - yes ;)

[Henry The Kid]

The worst side effect of smoking pot is that you'll eventually listen to Phish, and even claim to enjoy it. That should be the highlight of the government's anti-drug campaign in schools.

[casa]

Tim didn't say those things would happen, but that you should be prepared for them to happen. He's rightfully pointing out that recreational use runs the risk of becoming habitual use. That's why he put "trying" in quotation marks.

He didnt say it would happen but it sure sounds like thats what he meant, or atleast i think thats how the casual reader would perceive it.


That's a loaded term, and what it sounds like is irrelevant to whether or not it's accurate.

thats the thing though, its not accurate, if we were talking about full blown addiction then i would totally agree, but thats not what this thread is about.

I'm intrigued (and a little surprised) at how downright defensive some people are getting over the fact that most of us here don't think much of drug use. While a few have painted drug use in overly paranoid terms, perhaps, I think that paranoia is easily matched by the kneejerk offense in response.
actually i think its pretty much the other way around, its the non-users that are being judgmental. drug use is personal choice and although it can lead to addiction but for a person with a non addictive personality its a much more interesting way to spend a friday night.

[casa]

Very good advice!

You know, I had another thought that may be controversial here;
Does a person's intellegence figure into the equation of addiction or abuse? Does a smarter person understand the purpose of moderation? Perhaps it is a persons age then that makes them wiser because of experience. I mean who beyond 30 still smokes? (OK, I do, but I never claimed to be smart!)
actually its based more on the persons personality. (wether they have an addictive or non addictive one)
same thing as alcoholism its a disease

[Yoda]

He didnt say it would happen but it sure sounds like thats what he meant, or atleast i think thats how the casual reader would perceive it.A very, very casual reader, perhaps. If someone skimmed Tim's words and misunderstood, that's not his fault.


thats the thing though, its not accurate, if we were talking about full blown addiction then i would totally agree, but thats not what this thread is about.What are you basing that on? The thread is about drugs, which refers to both recreational and habitual use. Tim hasn't said anything false, misleading, or off-topic.


actually i think its pretty much the other way around, its the non-users that are being judgmental. drug use is personal choice and although it can lead to addiction but for a person with a non addictive personality its a much more interesting way to spend a friday night.Some of the non-users are being judgemental, sure. And some of the users are being paranoid and defensive.

That said, I really don't know what you're saying here. What does it mean to say that drug use is a "personal choice"? Isn't everything? The issue (and it's a legitimate one) is whether that choice is foolish, dangerous, or unimportant, and issuing blanket dismissals of anyone who's spoken ill of drug use isn't helping to answer that question.


The worst side effect of smoking pot is that you'll eventually listen to Phish, and even claim to enjoy it. That should be the highlight of the government's anti-drug campaign in schools.I'm not going to contend that pot's dangerous (clearly, it's not, as long as cars are kept out of the mix, I suppose). I'd argue that it's largely pointless, though, and that habitual smoking is not a problem in and of itself, but a symptom of a problem. I don't think it's ever a good sign when someone routinely feels the need to distract themselves with any substance.

[casa]

[QUOTE=Yoda]

What are you basing that on? The thread is about drugs, which refers to both recreational and habitual use.
[QUOTE]
My personal experiences, and I cant speak for you but im sure you havent dabbled or you would have taken a step back and said that all of reporters comments were a fair bit exagerated.( but I agree that they would be true if the person were an addict)

[QUOTE=Yoda]
That said, I really don't know what you're saying here. What does it mean to say that drug use is a "personal choice"? Isn't everything? The issue (and it's a legitimate one) is whether that choice is foolish, dangerous, or unimportant, and issuing blanket dismissals of anyone who's spoken ill of drug use isn't helping to answer that question.

[QUOTE]
Your 100% right,everything is a personal choice, and the fact that people are saying that you are wrong for doing it, irks me.
Now then to the issue of this thread, i think that it depends on the person. It is foolish in the sense that it doesnt need to be done, but that arguement could be used against pretty much anything, skateboarding, skydiving hell even stepping outside of the house would be considered foolish to some. Dangerous? it certainly can be (addiction, overdose) but its a risk the taker is obviously aware of and if the person isnt getting it off of some random chap of the street chances are they wouldnt sell you anything that could hurt you. Im not sure what you meant in regards to the unimportant part. and what are the blanket dismissals that im issuing?

As i said before, drugs are there, be careful with them because it is a double sided sword, dont pressure anyone and most importantly dont be to judgmental unless your trying to help them (which i havent had to do, because its just recreational use).

edit: how come the quotes didnt come in right?

[Yoda]

My personal experiences, and I cant speak for you but im sure you havent dabbled or you would have taken a step back and said that all of reporters comments were a fair bit exagerated.( but I agree that they would be true if the person were an addict)But they weren't exaggerated. As you've said, they're true in regards to addicts, and Tim's point was not that everyone who tries drugs will become an addict, but that everyone who tries drugs runs that risk. Where's the exaggeration?


Your 100% right,everything is a personal choice, and the fact that people are saying that you are wrong for doing it, irks me.
Now then to the issue of this thread, i think that it depends on the person. It is foolish in the sense that it doesnt need to be done, but that arguement could be used against pretty much anything, skateboarding, skydiving hell even stepping outside of the house would be considered foolish to some. Dangerous? it certainly can be (addiction, overdose) but its a risk the taker is obviously aware of and if the person isnt getting it off of some random chap of the street chances are they wouldnt sell you anything that could hurt you.I'd say it goes beyond just not needing to be done. It's something that doesn't need to be done, can form strong chemical addictions, and can even become expensive. I think that makes it a little more foolish than skateboarding, to borrow your example. How many lives has skateboarding ruined compared to drug use?

Another issue is that the consequences of drug use cannot be reliably contained to the user. We all know that when addictions are formed, addicts are capable of going to extreme lengths to satisfy their needs. This obviously won't happen to everyone, but the fact is that the risk you talk about can easily extend to other people close to the user.


Im not sure what you meant in regards to the unimportant part. and what are the blanket dismissals that im issuing?Well, you seem to disagree with some of the things being said, but I don't think you've really explaining why as of yet. You've made it clear that you're upset with people for disapproving of drug use, but that doesn't really show us why they're wrong for doing so. The downsides of drug use are obvious and (sometimes) quite serious. The upsides are vague and temporary. What compelling argument is there for it? So far all I've heard is that it can make for an "interesting Friday night."


edit: how come the quotes didnt come in right?You need to use closing quote tags. They look like opening quote tags, but with a slash. Like this (without the asterisk):

[*/quote]

[nebbit]

Nothing wrong with smoking weed, safer than drinking in most cases anyway. I may just be niave.
:yup:



(casa) drug use is personal choice and although it can lead to addiction but for a person with a non addictive personality its a much more interesting way to spend a friday night.

Lets hope you are one of the recreation users :rolleyes:

[Escape]

Never touched the stuff. Ever. Not even a puff. I'm all natural baby. ;)

[Henry The Kid]

Never touched the stuff. Ever. Not even a puff. I'm all natural baby. ;)


Yeah, weed is natural. Probably moreso than a lot of the food you eat.

[Escape]

Yeah, weed is natural. Probably moreso than a lot of the food you eat.
Well, I drink alot of those Protein shakes with a few preservatives added in. My bad. http://www.movieforums.com/community/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sedai]

The upsides are vague and temporary. What compelling argument is there for it? So far all I've heard is that it can make for an "interesting Friday night."
Well, I'll pipe in here. I know a fair amount of people who were able to work through a tragedy or a serious problem in a relationship while using the drug MDMA (ecstasy). For instance, one girl was able to cope much easier with the death of her parent after a couple of sessions on the drug, while talking about the death with some close friends. From what she says, she was able to face things that her "straight mind" just couldn't deal with. After making some progress, use of the drug as discontinued with no addiction and minimal side effects (loss of sleep, some spaceyness for a day or two afterwards). She feels E helped her deal with an extremely depressing time, and not in the sense that she would just get high and forget about her problems, but really the opposite, that the altered state of mind allowed her to focus on her issues in a different light and deal with getting over them and truely facing what it all meant. She explained it as some of these weird barriers she had built up about the death just sort of disappearing, as she didn;t approach the issue in the same "thought rut" she had been in. Clearly this may have been done without the drug, but it helped in this case, and she is an upstanding, college educated woman with a great job and a healthy social life today.

Another example was an (unnamed) couple who had been together for a few years and weren't doing so well together. Lots of fights, misunderstandings and miscommunication going on, and a break-up was imminent. Rolling (taking E) together was suggested as a possibility for getting past some of the communication barriers, and they gave it a shot. After a nice 8 hour roll, a new couple emerged, with solid, truthful communication set up between them. To this day, they are a happy, honest, open couple with excellent communication, good jobs, a nice place, and a high level of respect for each other for who they are, not who they thought they should be. I can personally attest to this, as I am one half of the couple. We tried it a few more time over the course of a year, and then quit using it, as it lost it's flare, and we couldn't learn anymore from it. I don't regret it at all, and am pretty thankful for the experiences that helped us grow together when all looked lost...

I am also of the mind some (moderate) pot use can enhance creativity in art, as it does for many I know. Like Sam Jackson said in Jackie Brown, though, to much of that **** will rob you of your ambition....

[EDIT] So...ya, Sort of some personal info here, and giving me **** about my life choices (I stand behind every one I have made, good or bad) is not recommended to keep OUR relationships healthy :)

[Anonymous Last]

How you get so big, smoking weed of this kind?
http://photobucket.com/albums/y196/tjeyeam/th_138705725041b60fc442817.jpg

[Eyes]

Well, I'll pipe in here. I know a fair amount of people who were able to work through a tragedy or a serious problem in a relationship while using the drug MDMA (ecstasy). For instance, one girl was able to cope much easier with the death of her parent after a couple of sessions on the drug, while talking about the death with some close friends. From what she says, she was able to face things that her "straight mind" just couldn't deal with. After making some progress, use of the drug as discontinued with no addiction and minimal side effects (loss of sleep, some spaceyness for a day or two afterwards). She feels E helped her deal with an extremely depressing time, and not in the sense that she would just get high and forget about her problems, but really the opposite, that the altered state of mind allowed her to focus on her issues in a different light and deal with getting over them and truely facing what it all meant. She explained it as some of these weird barriers she had built up about the death just sort of disappearing, as she didn;t approach the issue in the same "thought rut" she had been in. Clearly this may have been done without the drug, but it helped in this case, and she is an upstanding, college educated woman with a great job and a healthy social life today.

Another example was an (unnamed) couple who had been together for a few years and weren't doing so well together. Lots of fights, misunderstandings and miscommunication going on, and a break-up was imminent. Rolling (taking E) together was suggested as a possibility for getting past some of the communication barriers, and they gave it a shot. After a nice 8 hour roll, a new couple emerged, with solid, truthful communication set up between them. To this day, they are a happy, honest, open couple with excellent communication, good jobs, a nice place, and a high level of respect for each other for who they are, not who they thought they should be. I can personally attest to this, as I am one half of the couple. We tried it a few more time over the course of a year, and then quit using it, as it lost it's flare, and we couldn't learn anymore from it. I don't regret it at all, and am pretty thankful for the experiences that helped us grow together when all looked lost...

I am also of the mind some (moderate) pot use can enhance creativity in art, as it does for many I know. Like Sam Jackson said in Jackie Brown, though, to much of that **** will rob you of your ambition....

[EDIT] So...ya, Sort of some personal info here, and giving me **** about my life choices (I stand behind every one I have made, good or bad) is not recommended to keep OUR relationships healthy :)
It is understood that there can be a few such cases, i'll never deny that some people could "successfully" use drugs for a brief time and not become an addict. However, on the whole, the odds of that actually happening are miniscule compared to the likelyhood of them becoming addicted, or failing to solve whatever problems they have.

Even though drugs and alcohol can be helpful in some cases, more often than not the user will cause harm to themselves or others.

[blibblobblib]

I am also of the mind some (moderate) pot use can enhance creativity in art, as it does for many I know...
Several of my essay marks most definatly back up this statement :yup:
Like Sam Jackson said in Jackie Brown, though, to much of that **** will rob you of your ambition....
Indeed.

[Sedai]

It is understood that there can be a few such cases, i'll never deny that some people could "successfully" use drugs for a brief time and not become an addict. However, on the whole, the odds of that actually happening are miniscule compared to the likelyhood of them becoming addicted, or failing to solve whatever problems they have.

Even though drugs and alcohol can be helpful in some cases, more often than not the user will cause harm to themselves or others. Not buying it. Sounding like a broken record here, but again it's education and maturity that comes into play here in the case of some substances. I will concede that some of the harsher narcotics are pretty much a guaranteed addiction, even if only used a couple of times, or maybe even as few times as once. But, that said, I firmly believe that not only can an educated adult can research and weigh possibilties about those substances that aren't physically addictive and choose if they want to try it. Of course there are risks, like in many things, but an adult should be able allowed to make the choice for themselves.

Mental addiction is another story, and I feel over-use of anything can result in an addiction to that thing. Drugs aside, this thing could be anything from food to a hobby to a person, and someone could get mentally addicted to it. This is why drugs should be approched just like anything else as far as moderation and over-use are concerned. To much of anything is bad for a body, so I see no reason to segregate drugs as a special case.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that I don't think some other person knows how I should live my life. If I was a child, it would be different, as children don't know how to live their own lives yet, but grown people should be allowed to think for themselves.

As a brief aside, take antibacterial soap. At some point, someone decided they could market soap using fear and paranoia, by convincing people that even though things had been fine before anti-bacterial soap, even though there was no raging epidemic of people keeling over dead after using a McDonalds bathroom, that if they told people there COULD be a problem with bacteria around washrooms and kitchens, millions would buy into the story, and demand something to fight this new threat with. They would demand the restaurnts they go to use it, and they would buy it themselves to bring into their homes. I have never anti-bacterial soap (it might actually be bad for you, now that research on the soap itself is actually being done), and I am fine. I don;t get sick all the time, I haven't mutated, My kitchen sink isn't an ecto-soup about to form new lifeforms. Millions can say the same on this planet. In other words, it was bull****.

Back to drugs. If I take a plant, and burn it, and inhale the vapors, I am putting my health and lungs at risk, because I am introducing a contaminant into a relatively sterile environment. I know this risk and accept it. People who drink take risks, people who smoke butts take the same risks. That is their choice. Meanwhile, let me see how things are going in my life, because that is actual reality, not what people tell me is reality. I am fine. I feel good, have energy, I go to work everyday and do my job well. I pay my bills, I cook, clean and function in society just like anyone else. So I have taken this plant and inhaled it, and my life continues along as it has, or with improvements (like my sweet new place!). Things are good. What is wrong about this? I see nothing. I am in no more danger than someone who has had a couple of drinks, or smoked a couple of ciggs. I am, however, much hungrier than the guy who had the drinks. ;) Again, it was bull****. Now if I were to let this thing get out of hand, like with any of this stuff, booze, ciggs...the danger would grow, and bad things would start to happen in my life. Yet it doesn't, because of the choices I make.

But see, in this world, people think they can decide if the choices another adult makes are right or wrong. To these people I say, take a long walk on a short pier. They can definitely make their own choices, but not mine, see? If I shrivle up and get cancer and die, I will do it in my own space, and won't bother them any, but the just have to insert their presence, and try to control how people think and live. That is the real problem, as far as I can tell. Totalitarian psychos.

I am not calling anyone here that, just saying these type of people are the problem. And really, they can go ahead and keep thinking that, I just want them to leave me alone.

[Henry The Kid]

It is understood that there can be a few such cases, i'll never deny that some people could "successfully" use drugs for a brief time and not become an addict. However, on the whole, the odds of that actually happening are miniscule compared to the likelyhood of them becoming addicted, or failing to solve whatever problems they have.

Even though drugs and alcohol can be helpful in some cases, more often than not the user will cause harm to themselves or others.


I don't know the statistics exactly, but I have a feeling that this is utter bull****.

[Golgot]

I don't know the statistics exactly, but I have a feeling that this is utter bull****.

I think he's been informed by the 'Just say don't-want-to-know' school of thought ;)

---

EDIT: Here's an example of how exagerrated his take on addiction is...

Let's take heroin as an example. I made this claim earlier: Most people who try heroin don't become addicts

I can't track down my original sources right now, but here's one that backs up the general claim:

'Opioids could offer mass market pain relief'
[Issue 2484 of New Scientist magazine, 29 January 2005, page 19]
The fears about using opioids for pain relief stem largely from the dangers of recreational use. Yet even these have been overplayed. For example, while half of American soldiers in Vietnam tried heroin, only around 40 per cent of those who used it experienced any addiction, and just 1 to 3 per cent developed long-term addiction. In other words, at least 97 per cent of people in the highest-risk age group exposed to the scariest opioid under the most stressful circumstances did not become lifelong junkies.

Rest assured i'll try and track down the study she's quoting (:)), but her claims tally with various other bits of research i've checked out.

Where she talks about highest-risk age group - she's talking about the young, coz its during our formative years that the vast majority of addictions become established.

[Golgot]

Most of us agree that...


1 You need to approach all drugs in an 'intelligent' and informed way (i.e. when you're old and experienced enough, for a start)

2 They can all be habit forming (Because, in fact, anything that affects the bodies reward system can be habit forming. You can get 'addicted' to being hit in the balls with a stiletto heel if you really try ;))


Yoda previously asked the most important question:
What are the benefits of illegal drugs, aside from their 'rewarding' allure?
(i.e. fun on a friday night etc)


Sedai answered with some fine points about...

Ecstacy
-being very good at stimulating communication and bonding (and indeed, it was used for things like marriage counselling before it became illegal)

Marijuana
-being useful for stimulating creative expression. (To be more specific on that, i'd say it causes a state of mind where more 'globalised' connections are made, which makes the creation of 'new' ideas more likely. It also allows for engrossed/attentive fixation on tiny and otherwise 'mundane' objects and details)


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These drugs, of course, have downsides, and even downsides to their benefits too. It's how you use them that's important. On an occasional-use basis, practically all illegal drugs can be used in a practical and beneficial way. (Although you can start arguing about the meaning of 'benefit' when it's fighter pilots taking amphetamines so they can fly all night and all day, etc ;)).

Drugs almost always stimulate extreme versions and aspects of states that are achievable while 'straight' (IE during and after sex, or after 30 hours without sleep, or during some religious chanting with a really good beat ;)). Yods suggested, way back in the thread, that it's possible to appreciate/understand the effects of drugs from the outside. I'd say: Not quite - there's no substitute for experience. The extreme nature of the response many create means our daily experiences can't always equate. And with that in mind...


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Hallucinogens
-A 'classical' reaction to most types of 'trip' is a feeling of overwhelming oneness: An appreciation for your surroundings and your interconectedness with them in all their complexity. (best experienced in a 'natural' environment ;))
-Exploration of repressed thoughts. Disturbing as this process can be, most types of 'trip' will also unearth thought processes and memories that are tightly locked up in our 'unconscious'. It's this aspect of hallucinogens that often turns trips into formative, and even moral, 'tests of character'.

Again, both of the above experiences are potentially achievable without drugs (though rarely with the same extreme impact). But let me give you an example of just how far into beneficial territory these two powerful aspects can go (helped by the fact that they can be consciously induced, at a chosen time and place, just by swallowing)...

The Babongo tribe of Gabon have evolved a highly beneficial social rite using a hallucinogen called Iboga (now being tested, under the name Ibogaine, as a medicine that can treat, amongst other things, heroin addiction :)). The rite is a coming-of-age rite that signifies initiation into manhood.
First the man-to-be spends the night taking Iboga and telling a spiritual father-figure what he's experiencing. What he normally experiences is an exceptionally vivid return to past misdemeanours and actions about which he has much repressed guilt etc. Even more remarkably, he will regularly see some of these scenes through the eyes of the 'victim' of his actions. (these are the key 'regular' traits of Iboga)
Second Having confronted these harrowing aspects of himself with his eyes wide open, the man-to-be is led out into the village and to a sapling, which he is told represents his new young-adult self, shorn of past guilts and confronted mistakes. Then the sapling is surrounded by a huge pile of bushes etc, which he is told are the troubles and mistakes his adult life will bring. The man-to-be breaks one branch amongst the bushes, then the whole tribe tramples them to the ground, in a symbolic action that both unites them and reminds them of the glee they felt at having confronted the darker parts of their selves during their own rite.
ThirdAs the night progresses, and wild dances concentrate the newly 'born' man on the celebrating world in front of him, he then tells the tribe of more esoteric, abstract visions he now sees (which they take to be omens of what will later be)

What's important about this rite is the way they have learnt to use this stupefyingly potent drug.

We can only hope that if and when it is fully introduced to Western society that it is applied so wisely. You don't have to believe in the visions of the last part of the rite to recognise the benefit of its self-examination insights. And hopefully you see the benefit in the way it requires social support and bonding to become a beneficial personal 'rite' - and indeed that it engenders this social-bond, because everyone helps each other through their own long-dark-night of the soul.

The things i'm talking about here extend beyond pure gratification (and biological 'reward'). They are intrinsically beneficial. Our societies would do well to consider enfranchising adult, informed use of all potentially-beneficial drugs - on the understanding that the individual's gain should benefit society too - and that we can stop each other's use if we start using them like mugs ;).

[Eyes]

@Sedai, i'm not refuting the fact that sometimes, drugs can be helpful, or at least not do any severe or long-term damage. I'm just saying that the risks should not be ignored because of the cases where drugs helped. I understand that an adult can make an educated decision about whether or not to use drugs. It's their health, and their decision, and they can, as you said "shrivel up, and get cancer and die". But when the drugs make someone mentally unstable, or take away their control of their actions, other people are put at risk. That is where drug use becomes wrong, in my book. So if someone wants to get stoned, or totally ****-faced, fine by me, but it's wrong to do it behind the wheel of a car, or with a gun in hand.

@Golgot, Regarding the Heroin study you quoted; again, i don't particularly care what happens to the user, it's their choice and problem, but i'd like to point out that a single dose of Heroin can be lethal, so the length of the addiction is far less relevant.
As to the "beneficial drugs", i don't doubt that in some, even many cases, drugs can have a beneficial effect outside of normal gratification and possible solve psychological problems. I couldn't agree more that one should be old and experienced enough to weigh the risks and benefits of drug use. The problem is the vast number of teens taking drugs. I think that many adults are capable of safely using drugs, but when a 16 year old gets drunk and runs over a good friend of your's you understand that that teenager made a crappy choice. So I agree, an intelligent person that makes an informed decision for the right reasons can and probably should take drugs, but there's no way you can deny that drugs have ****ed up a lot of people's lives, even if some of those people never took drugs.

[nebbit]

Not buying it. Sounding like a broken record here, but again it's education and maturity that comes into play here in the case of some substances.

I firmly believe that not only can an educated adult can research and weigh possibilities about those substances .

If only this were true, I have worked in the Drug and Alcohol area for 30yrs and my experience is that addiction can happen to all types of people, even educated mature ones :yup:

Using drugs for Therapy is not new, at the psychiatric hospital i trained we used LSD and Speed way back in the 1970's :)

[Sedai]

If only this were true, I have worked in the Drug and Alcohol area for 30yrs and my experience is that addiction can happen to all types of people, even educated mature ones :yup:
But it is true, in many cases, and I did say I was talking about drugs that aren't really physically addictive. Alcohol is definitely a highly addictive drug, and can (and does) take people down. Alcohol is irrelevant here, however, as I was sort of going off about the fact that many people will shun something, without knowledge, just because it is on the books as illegal. Hence my comparisons to alcohol and ciggs. You actually back up my point here. You are stating that alcohol is quite dangerous, backed by 30+ years of experience, which I think is soemthing not to be ignored. It also illustrates my point wonderfully. If alcohol is as dangerous, or more dangerous than grass, why is grass illegal and alcohol is an accepted social enhancer, even among lawmakers? It makes no sense, and takes the wind out of anyone's sails who claims it should be illegal just because it is dangerous, as far as I am concerned anyway.


That is pretty much my point. As well as another point that just because something bad can possibly happen with something, doesn't make it inherently bad.

@Eyes: I concur about the wheel of a car thing, and think this falls into making the correct decisions about something. Alcohol is the big offender here anyway, as stoned people going 6 MPH tend to not get into accidents. ;)


PS - Hot avatar once again nebbs.... :randy:

[Golgot]

...but there's no way you can deny that drugs have ****ed up a lot of people's lives, even if some of those people never took drugs.

I don't deny that at all. That's why i lean towards publically enfranchising drugs so we can have more influence over their use, and stop abuse. By refusing to talk about them we just push them underground and make it more likely that kids will rebel and use them thoughtlessly.

All i was doing, with regards to your post, was pointing out you were being inaccurate about addiction potential. And you're side-stepping the issue again when you point out that taking an excessive amount of heroin in one go can kill you. That's true of aspirin. The real debate should be about how we use all the chemicals around us.

There, you see, it's more fun when we talk with each other, rather than @ each other ;)

[nebbit]

i lean towards publically enfranchising drugs so we can have more influence over their use, and stop abuse.

Sounds good but it didn't work with Alcohol and cigarettes http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/4.gif http://bestsmileys.com/smoking/1.gif

[Golgot]

Nice pics nebbles (i'm just drinking a beer and smoking a fag damn you ;))

Yeah, i know. It's a tricky one. And the idea of a 24-hour society where kids could get hold of smack-in-a-bottle doesn't appeal to me either. And on cigarettes you've definitely got a point (but i said 'potentially-beneficial' drugs before yeah ;)).

But...

On alchohol (which is beneficial, in moderation) things are a bit different. Imagine a world where it was banned... It's got such an appeal, and can be made so easily, that people'd make it anyway (so long as there was a generation that knew about it). Plus - it'd be worse quality / worse for their health [+ stronger and more likely to intoxicate quickly/uncontrollably]. Then add in that all the alcholics-anonymous-style groups would be more limited in scope.

All of that is the state most illegal drugs are in.

But you're right, as things stand, we could never just legalise and hope for the best. I live in a country which has possibly the worst approach to alcohol in the world. We'd need to find some social norms and practices that could get that down to a dull roar first, as a test case, before we could ever introduce my little 'dream' scenario.

The Swedish model of limiting purchasing seems to have a decent effect (until the Swedes leave Sweden that is - then they puke everywhere ;)). The traditional Mediterranean approach to drink (with meals) has worked as a moderator for a long time, and is only now breaking down in the face of the 24-hour free-for-all hedonist society.

There's a couple of options out there, but to work they have to be regulated not just by legal rules but by social practices (and believed-in 'taboos'). That was the point of my example of an extreme drug (Iboga) being used in a social-positive way. It gets trickier with the more benign-seeming drugs, but society has got these things under control in the past, and should be able to do it again.

So yeah, you're right. There's plenty of things to sort out first :). But, with new drugs being 'discovered'/'created' at an increasing rate, some sort of social engagment with the implications of their influence on us wouldn't be out of place ;)

[nebbit]

But you're right, as things stand, we could never just legalise and hope for the best.


:yup:

[Eyes]

i'm not saying it's going to happen, but it would be awsome if everyone could do what was done in Formula 51. If all drug users were unknowingly put on a placebo, then POS would, in a perfect world, sort things out so that everyone wins.

[Piddzilla]

The Swedish model of limiting purchasing seems to have a decent effect (until the Swedes leave Sweden that is - then they puke everywhere ;)).

Hey! We puke everywhere in Sweden too!! :sick:

The term "limiting purchasing" is not quite telling the whole story about swedish alcohol politics.

I am all for the state controlled monopoly here in Sweden because it gives the government and the National Health Board, and other authorities and institutes, an excellent insight in alcohol habits and related diseases. But there are other reasons that favours the monopoly even more besides the one allready mentioned . First, I have never been to a liquor store with similar wide assortment as "Systembolaget" or with the same kind of service-minded and actually educated staff. Thing is, the swedish authorities know that if they don't offer this kind of service the support for the monopoly among the swedes will be history. Second, I don't want alcohol in the hands of shopowners who know that if they sell alcohol to underaged kids they can make loads of cash.

The problem here in Sweden, the country with Europe's and perhaps the world's highest tax pressure, is that alcohol, and especially hard liquor, is and historically has been very expensive. When we joined EU all of a sudden we were allowed to go and get practically unlimited amounts of cheap beer and booze in neighbouring countries like Denmark, Finland, Germany and Poland. The black market has been blooming because of this. It's made the government work over the alcohol politics and the system and gradually lowering the taxes to save a very valuable income for the state as well as the health of the swedes. They have to do this or, as I mentioned before, the support for the monopoly will soon be gone.

I am considering marijuana and cannabis to be on the same level as alcohol when grading the dangers of different drugs. Still I am not sure a legalization would be a good idea. We can see what problems alcohol is causing, and not just in countries with a drink-yourself-unconscious culture. In countries like Denmark, France and Italy, where they have a more "mature" relationship to alcohol compared to Sweden and Britain they have much higher rates of alcohol related diseases caused by years of drinking "moderately, only together with meals". I am just saying that even though there are several reasons for legalizing marijuana, I don't think anybody can deny that we will add more problems to health care as well as socially rather than get rid of them. I have yet not seen a realistic proposal on how to legalize marijuana responsibly. The support for legalizing always come from people talking about "the rights of the single individual" and from directions that traditionally don't care too much about social responsibility or from people that themselves think their lives are better because of smoking pot. Which they might very well be, but you have to see to the bigger picture and from all perspectives - not just your own.

Lately I've been thinking about possible ways to legalize marijuana. I thought that growing a limited amount for own personal use might work and be able to control. I don't think we need another legal commercialized drug.

[nebbit]

Lately I've been thinking about possible ways to legalize marijuana. I thought that growing a limited amount for own personal use might work and be able to control.

They have that law here in one Place in Australia, in the ACT (Australian Capitol Territory) you can grow 3 plants for your own use, not sure how it is working there hasn't been much said about it since it came into practice.
:)

[Urban Cowboy]

I've dabbled. I've found one I like, weed, but most are overrated, or cost way to much to justify there use. I'd say that ever since I became legal, I'v become a bit of a lush and letf the dope alone, for the most part.

[Loner]

The worst side effect of smoking pot is that you'll eventually listen to Phish, and even claim to enjoy it. That should be the highlight of the government's anti-drug campaign in schools.

I knew there had to be a reason!

[Caitlyn]

I wonder if hard core drug addicts just wake up one morning and decide that is what they want to be…

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I wonder if hard core drug addicts just wake up one morning and decide that is what they want to be…
* healthy
* clean
* employable
* on parole
* alive

?

[Caitlyn]

* healthy
* clean
* employable
* on parole
* alive

?



A drug addict…. I guess I was actually thinking about an uncle who had just died as a direct result of drug use when I posted that… and I'm still trying to figure out why he chose to do what he did to himself…

[Golgot]

A drug addict…. I guess I was actually thinking about an uncle who had just died as a direct result of drug use when I posted that… and I'm still trying to figure out why he chose to do what he did to himself…

Chances are he was running away from choices when he turned to the drug, and once that happened all the choices went away.

Most people get hooked on stuff coz they can't deal with problems in their lives - I'm sure he didn't want to fall into addiction, just like he didn't want those problems in the first place.

You shouldn't think he chose to be an addict, but you're right that he made the wrong choice. The times when we manage to learn from our mistakes are when we're most blessed eh?

Sorry for your loss darl.

Gg

[SamsoniteDelilah]

A drug addict…. I guess I was actually thinking about an uncle who had just died as a direct result of drug use when I posted that… and I'm still trying to figure out why he chose to do what he did to himself…
Have you ever seen Trainspotting? I think it's a brilliant look at how people get caught in that life. It drains their energy, their morality, their sense of self and individuality.... My brother is an addict. It's hard to watch someone wrestle with addiction and all the associated problems. It's heartbreaking. I'm sorry to hear your uncle lost the fight.

[hazii82]

smoked weed before im sure alot of people have tired that and even harded drugs but dont want to confess up about it.....

[Equilibrium]

Weed, did it everyday several times for the last month of my freshman college year. Won't lie to you, some of my best memories are of me stoned with my best friends and just watching a movie and eating. Its the most relaxing thing you'll ever do. but if you value a proper life and career don't do it. Don't let your grades go wasted like mine did. Granted I've learned alot, and it was fun, but there were days when I would open my eyes, smoke (called wake and bake among my friends and I) watch a movie smoke more eat, smoke more and then go to sleep again without having left the room or done anything the entire day.

As I said, its definitly fun and everything is enhanced, you begin to analyze people's personalities, but do it enough times and your whole life will revolve around it eventually, and it will become part of your persnality.

I am happy to say its been out of my system for over a month now and haven't had the slightest desire to go back.

Weed is definitly one of the funnest things ever, and if i was filthy rich, beyond imagination I would just sit around and smoke all day. But that luxury isn't afforded to me nor will it ever be.

It all comes down to saying no the first time. Just say no.

[Hondo333]

I know where your comiing from, I to have gone throught stages of being stoned all day. Wakenbaking sneaking off for Jays every chance i get. And i know how it effects your life. But i wouldn't say that just becasue you smoke it once your going to have this happen to you. %90 (and in my case) of the time its not Pot that cause's people to become habitual smokers but other problems in thier life. Pot is the greatest thing to use ofr escapisum. It makes everything seem a hell of a lot better. Instead of looking for a job, combating my low selfesteem and dealing with all the ****ed up **** that was going on in my life it was a hell of a lot easyer to get baked and listen to Pink Floyd. But i dont think that abstinace is the cure for this. I *DONT* think its a good idea not to smoke everyday, but i still ****ing enjoy it everynoe and then (Stoned right now... :p). Its just being able to see whats going on around you nad seeing whats eally important that is the key of aproreate drug use...


Aww man, Zeppelin are sooo goooooooood.

[Equilibrium]

I know where your comiing from, I to have gone throught stages of being stoned all day. Wakenbaking sneaking off for Jays every chance i get. And i know how it effects your life. But i wouldn't say that just becasue you smoke it once your going to have this happen to you. %90 (and in my case) of the time its not Pot that cause's people to become habitual smokers but other problems in thier life. Pot is the greatest thing to use ofr escapisum. It makes everything seem a hell of a lot better. Instead of looking for a job, combating my low selfesteem and dealing with all the ****ed up **** that was going on in my life it was a hell of a lot easyer to get baked and listen to Pink Floyd. But i dont think that abstinace is the cure for this. I think its a good idea not to smoke everyday, but i still ****ing enjoy it everynoe and then (Stoned right now... :p). Its just being able to see whats going on around you nad seeing whats eally important that is the key of aproreate drug use...


Aww man, Zeppelin are sooo goooooooood.

I completely disagree with you. I used weed on a daily bases about 3 or 4 joints a day. Near the end before I quit, it wasn't fun anymore because when I was stoned all I could think about was how I need to stop. It no longer became an "escape" but rather it amplified all my problems and made me think about them even more. The one time where it wasn't like this was when I told my friends I wanted one last session of smoking before I quit. That night we smoked some foot long joints, since then I haven't even had the slightest urge to do it. Weed is defintily an enhancer, its how I got to love Bob Marely, its how began to think about life in a different way, but it remains one of the key reasons why m grades suffered. As an aspiring medical student, weed just doesn't fit into my lifestyle unfortuantely, i wish it did. However, because weed doesn't fot my lifestyle (or most lifestyles for that matter unless your a musician whose already famous) then its time to stop. As I mentioned before I've been done with it for about a month now.

[jrs]

MoFo has gone to a real low. I can't believe ya'll. It's very sad.

[Golgot]

Very constructive j :rolleyes:

[jrs]

and very true

[blibblobblib]

How so? Members of MOFO smoke weed, therefor the forum is on a downward spiral of sin? God help us all.

[Nitzer]

How so? Members of MOFO smoke weed, therefor the forum is on a downward spiral of sin? God help us all.

Too many things are considered a sin. Pretty much, if it feels good - stop doing it.

[Equilibrium]

and very true.
Yeah, but no one was trying to hide the truth so why point it out. :cool:

[Equilibrium]

Too many things are considered a sin. Pretty much, if it feels good - stop doing it.

Not a very bright way to look at it. Feeling good can be achieved through other ways such as: work, effort, a good job, being a good person, sports, activities, etc. Drugs such as weed are just the cheap shortcut with many negative consequences.

[Yoda]

I think Equilibrium pretty much nailed it; drugs are almost invariably a distraction, be it from pain or simple boredom. Whatever problem or void caused you to turn to them in the first place is still going to be there when you're done, assuming it hasn't gotten worse.

Too many things are considered a sin. Pretty much, if it feels good - stop doing it.You think this way because the modern emphasis towards sin is one of rules, rather than one of benefit. Sinful behavior is to be discouraged because it's simply unwise. Unfortunately this is not often articulated, and sin is communicated as something forbidden for its own sake, rather than something which genuinely harms the sinner over time.

[nebbit]

MoFo has gone to a real low. I can't believe ya'll. It's very sad.

I think it is a good thing that people are talking about their experiences, it is good honest discussion. :yup:

[Piddzilla]

I'm seriously thinking about giving up coffee. Ever since I quit smoking (ordinary cigarettes) I have always told myself that I would never get hooked on anything again. And I am definately hooked on coffee - only I do not get a kick out of it. I do, however, feel like crap if I don't drink it everyday. Then again... it tastes goood... :licklips:

[nebbit]

I'm seriously thinking about giving up coffee. Then again... it tastes goood... :licklips:


:yup: doesn't sound like you are ready to give up yet. ;) http://bestsmileys.com/coffee/1.gif

[Equilibrium]

:yup: doesn't sound like you are ready to give up yet. ;) http://bestsmileys.com/coffee/1.gif

LOL, coffee what a good idea lol. BRB.

[jrs]

http://picture.funnyjunk.com/pics/weed.jpg

[Henry The Kid]

MoFo has gone to a real low. I can't believe ya'll. It's very sad.


Hear that? That's the sound of your life crashing ruthlessly into mediocrity.

[Yoda]

Hear that? That's the sound of your life crashing ruthlessly into mediocrity.Huh? I don't agree with him, but I don't see how that follows at all. And frankly, it's a bit hypocritical from a proponent of marijuana, which is the physical embodiment of apathy/mediocrity.

[jrs]

coffee what a good idea lol. BRB.
Better than taking drugs, and that's a fact ;)

[Henry The Kid]

Huh? I don't agree with him, but I don't see how that follows at all. And frankly, it's a bit hypocritical from a proponent of marijuana, which is the physical embodiment of apathy/mediocrity.

I was making a purposely antagonistic comment based on what I've seen him post unanimously through threads of all types. His blindingly judgmental comment here just amused me enough to come out for one of my oh-so-rare confrontations. I don't even smoke pot anymore since I've started running marathons; my comments in this thread and in others came from my disapproval of the inflated ego people like jrs have.

[Yoda]

I was making a purposely antagonistic comment based on what I've seen him post unanimously through threads of all types. His blindingly judgmental comment here just amused me enough to come out for one of my oh-so-rare confrontations. I don't even smoke pot anymore since I've started running marathons; my comments in this thread and in others came from my disapproval of the inflated ego people like jrs have.Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

[Equilibrium]

Huh? I don't agree with him, but I don't see how that follows at all. And frankly, it's a bit hypocritical from a proponent of marijuana, which is the physical embodiment of apathy/mediocrity.

Actually, I almost take offense to that. Using weed, or any drug is not the physical embodiment of mediocrity. Remember that everyone has a vice. Everyone. Mine is the fact that I used marijuana extensively for a short period of time, tomorrow my vice might be failed grades. You have a vice too, I'm sure.

Also, mediocrity is relative. To tell you the truth I consider anyone who has had pre martial sex to have stooped to mainstream mediocrity. However as we all know, this is not always the case.

And finally, even if mediocrity is where we wind up, then a famous person (dont know who) once said that the essence of happenes is not wanting to go somewhere...but wanting to be where you are.

[jrs]

the inflated ego people like jrs have.
Grow up. :rolleyes:

[Golgot]

...marijuana, which is the physical embodiment of apathy/mediocrity.

Yes, but the delusions of grandeur are marvellous ;)

As is the far from mediocre art and music that numerous weed-enjoyers have created :)

Grow up. :rolleyes:

Ahh, to be as funny as this man is. Thank heavens i'm mainly on legal drugs these days. Maybe eventually i'll be a good a straight man as our very own jrs. :goof:

[Sedai]

MoFo has gone to a real low. I can't believe ya'll. It's very sad. And you can stop that sanctimonius bull****, right now.

Please.

Better than taking drugs, and that's a fact ;) Except that it IS a drug, and one of the most addictive in the world, so if you drink coffee every day, you are a drug addict. There is no other way to look at. I drink coffee, which contains what has been proven to be one of the most addictive (and powerful) drugs in the world, so I am a drug addict. I feel this certainly qualifies for me more than smoking up a few times a week. I knew people, businessmen, who drink around FIFTEEN cups of coffee per day. The effect on their nervous system must be staggering. Caffine is a potent, potent drug. It speeds the heart like cocaine, makes the user more aware and focused, thins the blood, contaminates the liver, speeds the flow of urine causing dehydration, and in too high a doses can turn the most calm person into a fuming time bomb ready to explode at the slightest annoyance. If your againt drugs just because they are drugs, than you are against caffine, alcohol, some teas, and ANY form of over-the counter medication. How many supposed medications have been pulled from shelves after extended testing has been done. I cite ephedra as the latest drug that was a wonder drug! Gives you energy! Helps you focus! Let's put it in tea!!! Oh, wait, people are dying of heart attacks!! Oh crap, pull it quick!! Far more dangerous than weed, all things considered, but people trusted it and thought it was great, just because someone told them it was.

I also think Equilibrium nailed it, and he made an educated decision for himself concerning a substance he felt had run it's course and was starting to have negative impact on his life. Like any educated person should. He didn't need any reports, scare tactics, instructional tapes, government propaganda, or any other such nonsense to make this decision. He said to himself "Am I having any fun with this?", "Since I am at a crucial juncture in my life, should I focus all energies on my medical studies for a few years and then decide how to spend my free time?"....Why, yes he did.

If one wishes to use black and white judgement on the issue, labeling everything "drug" bad, and then just standing firm on a bullheaded viewpoint without listening to any other argument, and furthermore, not attempting to set aside their own views and try slipping into someone elses shoes for a minute or two, I can say only one thing....

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[jrs]

... i'm on legal drugs

Ditto.

Maybe eventually i'll be a good a straight man as our very own jrs.


I'll take it as a compliment. Thank you.

[Yoda]

Yes, but the delusions of grandeur are marvellous ;)

As is the far from mediocre art and music that numerous weed-enjoyers have created :)Sure, in the best-case scenarios. Most just wallow, though. I should hope there isn't any disagreement with the idea that regular smokers are far more likely to be lazy bums than Bob Marley.

At the risk of sounding harsh, I find the idea of drugs being used for genuine mind expansion rather silly. We're talking about delusions here. It's not genuine insight if it only happens because you've purposely lowered the bar on what your mind finds insightful.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Equilibrium. My point was that marijuana induces apathy (which is kinda the point); not that everyone who ever smokes it is apathetic.

[Sedai]

Ditto.




I'll take it as a compliment. Thank you. If you are on legal drugs, you are not a "straight man", sorry. You are on drugs, pure and simple. I have a close friend that I grow more and more concerned about every day for his various drug addiction, which he has been unable to shake for over 10 years, and not for lack of trying. Every drug he takes in prescribed by a doctor. He is by far the most screwed up individual I have ever met, and wasn't until medical professionals decided his mood swings (at age 17, still a developing teen at the time he was diagnosed with "mood disorder") were bad, and should be treated with a bunch of new, synthetic head-meds that just hadn't been tested in the long term at all. He is so strung out on all this **** now, it's all he talks about. He doesn't do illegal drugs of any kind.

Stop the hypocrisy!!!

[Sedai]

..you can't die from it. Aside from the obvious problems with smoking anything, how does one die from weed? Also, how long has the drug you take been in existence, how much testing has been done, and if you can't die from it, how about.....

Psychosis?
Tremors?
Diabetes?
Early senility?

Or the problem we were talking about in the first place, addiction? Not just physical addiction, how about mental addiction. Are you absolutely convinced this drug is right for you? If you are, is that a healthy attitude? Will you die if you stop taking it? Also, just where is this rule that if you can't die from a drug, it can't be bad? That is absurd.

EDIT Alright, where did the post go that I just quoted? I have a hard enough time not loking like a chump all on my own, I don't need your help... ;)

[jrs]

If you are on legal drugs, you are not a "straight man", sorry. You are on drugs, pure and simple. I have a close friend that I grow more and more concerned about every day for his various drug addiction, which he has been unable to shake for over 10 years, and not for lack of trying. Every drug he takes in prescribed by a doctor. He is by far the most screwed up individual I have ever met, and wasn't until medical professionals decided his mood swings (at age 17, still a developing teen at the time he was diagnosed with "mood disorder") were bad, and should be treated with a bunch of new, synthetic head-meds that just hadn't been tested in the long term at all. He is so strung out on all this **** now, it's all he talks about. He doesn't do illegal drugs of any kind.

Stop the hypocrisy!!!

Even though the meds I take won't affect me like that - you have changed my whole perspective in this topic with this one post.

[Sedai]

Even though the meds I take won't affect me like that - you have changed my whole perspective in this topic with this one post.
Ya man, be careful with that stuff, and find out what you are putting into your body, and your head. Too many people get royally screwed over by these new drugs, and it's damn scarey.

[starrdarcy]

when i came out of my operationa year ago, i was on some heavy pain killers. It was a bit hard to get off of them.

Sometimes the good drugs (not really) can make you get addicted.

[jrs]

Really man. If you are unsure about the stuff they have you on, check into it fast, and if it's bad, get off the stuff, and fast..


I've been on the same meds for 22 years to help me, and I'm fine, just as long as I take 'em. I can't have (and never would anyway) alcohol in my system plus certain cold medicines when I take them and such.

EDIT Alright, where did the post go that I just quoted? I have a hard enough time not loking like a chump all on my own, I don't need your help...

I knew you were gonna post something like you did so I deleted it. BTW, i was talking about Nebbit's response about coffee.

[Sedai]

At the risk of sounding harsh, I find the idea of drugs being used for genuine mind expansion rather silly. We're talking about delusions here. It's not genuine insight if it only happens because you've purposely lowered the bar on what your mind finds insightful.


Not harsh at all, and a valid point to some extent. I don't see any bar-lowering here though. It's a perspective change, for sure, but good things can (and do) come of it, so it could be considered raising the bar in some cases. It is genuine insight at times, and that is where some of the great art (Van Gogh, Dali etc..) of the past has stemmed from. If works like these are and have been considered "great" by many, it can't be all bad, right? How about Howard Hughes? Not a drug addict to be sure, but delusional to quite an extent, due to a disorder. His delusions and obscure, troubled thinking allowed him to make great strides in aviation design, because his mind was forced out of the norm. It is a great interest of mine to study what makes great men great, and many of the men I have taken a gander at, such as hughes or Lawrence of arabia, were a bit delusional in some way. Delusion is not a negative term in my mind, although it can be negative, like anything.

This is a great discussion, folks.

And Jason, you know I wasn't calling you a Sith, just reminding you about them.... :D

[jrs]

And Jason, you know I wasn't calling you a Sith, just reminding you about them.... :D

:cool: May the force be with you. :cool:

[susan]

well there are certain drugs that some people have to take..

i have high blood pressure, high cholesterol and allergies...i am also taking tamoxifen which is a cancer preventative...i have to take it minimum five years...

yes some of it can be reduced by diet and exercise, but the cholesterol and high blood pressure is hereditary in my family as is cancer

[Sedai]

Oh, of course. I know millions have to take various drugs for various health issues, and was really just calling out the whole "all drugs are bad" argument...

[Richard Hell]

Dude I dont know abuot guys but I think "You're so (dirty word) hot.... Let's go get some hookers and some coke and go crazy."

[starrdarcy]

Dude I dont know abuot guys but I think "You're so (dirty word) hot.... Let's go get some hookers and some coke and go crazy."
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: It's getting hot in here...

[Golgot]

I'll take it as a compliment. Thank you.

It wasn't i'm afraid j. But now you seem to have taken some of Sedai's points on board, and have moved away from your original entrenched position, you get some respect from me my good man :)

Sure, in the best-case scenarios. Most just wallow, though. I should hope there isn't any disagreement with the idea that regular smokers are far more likely to be lazy bums than Bob Marley.

Sure.

But what you said originally was: that ganja was "the physical embodiment of apathy/mediocrity". That smacked far too much of the absolutist dogma that jrs was espousing.

I hope there isn't any disagreement with the idea that ingesting that particular drug can facilitate creativity. ;)

At the risk of sounding harsh, I find the idea of drugs being used for genuine mind expansion rather silly. We're talking about delusions here. It's not genuine insight if it only happens because you've purposely lowered the bar on what your mind finds insightful.

As Seds pointed out, to say that hallicinogens etc 'lower the bar' is an assumption on your part.

I'm not claiming they 'raise the bar' across the board either - but they do provide an 'otherness' which brings with it alternative thought processes and perceptions that can cause both valid insights and damaging delusions (IMO). How you distinguish and/or get the best out these things is an issue for sure.

Oh, of course. I know millions have to take various drugs for various health issues, and was really just calling out the whole "all drugs are bad" argument...

And you did it tub-thumpingly well sir :yup:

when i came out of my operationa year ago, i was on some heavy pain killers. It was a bit hard to get off of them.

Sometimes the good drugs (not really) can make you get addicted.

Sure they can - but i bet you'd rather have had those pain killers than nothing.

This is the thing though - legal drugs aren't wholly good and illegal drugs aren't wholly bad. Unfortunately, novel drugs get over-used sometimes and the benefits of illegal drugs get ignored (various benefits of opiates and marijuana are making a grinding 'comeback' though - thanks mainly to 'novel' ways of processing and administering them :)).

Things should get better in the long run - and not through drug use all the time either... Here's a weird non-druggy example that i just love.

'11 steps to a better brain' - New Scientist magazine, 28 May 2005 (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18625011.900)
[Neurofeedback] works by showing people a real-time measure of some seemingly uncontrollable aspect of their physiology - heart rate, say - and encouraging them to try and change it. Astonishingly, many patients found that they could, though only rarely could they describe how they did it...
...This early success encouraged others, and neurofeedback soon became a popular alternative therapy for ADHD. There is now good scientific evidence that it works, as well as some success in treating epilepsy, depression, tinnitus, anxiety, stroke and brain injuries...
...And there are hints that the method could boost creativity, enhance our orgasms, give shy people more confidence, lift low moods, alter the balance between left and right brain activity, and alter personality traits. All this by the power of thought.

It's just so novel :)

[starrdarcy]

Thanks for the link Golgot.

Yeah, the operation was a bit rough :sick: at times.

[PimpDaShizzle V2.0]

Drugs. Use but don't abuse.

Advice from DaShiz, Pimp.

[Yoda]

Sure.

But what you said originally was: that ganja was "the physical embodiment of apathy/mediocrity". That smacked far too much of the absolutist dogma that jrs was espousing.Yes, I know. And you hold as an absolute that it's never good to speak in them. ;) Personally, I find reluctancy to condemn things far more worrisome, especially when it comes to things like drugs. The "well, they're not ALWAYS bad" line of thought is exactly how people begin to talk themselves into these things. Vice often uses open-mindedness as cover.


I hope there isn't any disagreement with the idea that ingesting that particular drug can facilitate creativity. ;)Of course not. Though I'd argue with whether or not it's particularly creative in any meaningful sense of the word. I've found many strange, nonsensical things intriguining, even though they were not particularly impressive. In my mind, the kind of art that is drug-induced is not the deep kind of art that inspires and provides insight; it is the kind of art that merely entertains. Needless to say, I think less of that kind.

Anyway, my initial disagreements came from the fact that the discussion has been, by and large, about the pros and cons of drugs, and taking drugs on the off chance that they'll help you create something which may or may not resemble art of some kind doesn't strike me as much of a pro when lined against the much more ample, tangible cons.


As Seds pointed out, to say that hallicinogens etc 'lower the bar' is an assumption on your part.Yep. But it's one I'm pretty confident in. What else do you expect me to say when someone pops a pill and suddenly finds a lava lamp fascinating? I suppose it's technically possible that there's all sorts of incredible meaning in the things around me that can only be grasped by altering the chemicals in my brain, but I think reason dictates that it's far more likely to just be a mental light show.


I'm not claiming they 'raise the bar' across the board either - but they do provide an 'otherness' which brings with it alternative thought processes and perceptions that can cause both valid insights and damaging delusions (IMO). How you distinguish and/or get the best out these things is an issue for sure.I'm open to conflicting viewpoints on this. Can you give me any examples of genuine insights that you reached through drug use?

Regardless of that, this sort of ties into what I said above; is the vague possibility of some mild creative burst really justification for drug use? And, more to the point, is it really the reason most people use drugs? I'm betting no, especially on the second one.

[nebbit]

I have a close friend that I grow more and more concerned about every day for his various drug addiction, which he has been unable to shake for over 10 years, and not for lack of trying. Every drug he takes in prescribed by a doctor.

Why doesn't your friend make an educated decision about his drug taking
:yup:

There are people who are addicted to prescription drugs and that is a worry, but at least we know the strength of the drug they are given and it is consistent, the police here looked at E's over a year and found the strength ranged from 35mgs to 130mgs, people take it with out knowing the strength and that is scary :eek:

[Equilibrium]

Why doesn't your friend make an educated decision about his drug taking
:yup:

There are people who are addicted to prescription drugs and that is a worry, but at least we know the strength of the drug they are given and it is consistent, the police here looked at E's over a year and found the strength ranged from 35mgs to 130mgs, people take it with out knowing the strength and that is scary :eek:


White doves are definitly not the world's safest drug. In fact just one pill could kill you because like you said, it is not a controlled substance. However I think Golgot pointed out that things are becoming "novel" as they are administered more properly. In reference to weed, unless you are an idiot then there is no harm. You will never get weed that has another substance in it (unless you just go buy a pre rolled joint which might be laced with some other drug).

The thing about drugs is, you can't ever really understand what it is like until you try them. Weed is not a physically addictive drug but rather psychologically. The reason around this is that you notice things you don't normally notice. Stoned people can FUNCTION, which is a quality no other drug or even alchohol posseses. If I could run the world my way, I'd have everyone try smoking weed for one week, it will change your outlook on life for the rest of your lifetime. Weed, among other things, greatly inchances the level of communication. You can understand exactly what the other person is saying (its just hard to reply back sometimes lol). This is why weed is a social drug, its got its optimum effect when you are with others. The problems arise when weed gets in the way of your LIFE. Which it always will. Don't ever fall into bs of "if you dont smoke alot you'll be fine" thats not true. You'll smoke a little bit, someone will pull out a suprise joint and you begin to put things off.

Like I said before, most of us can't afford to just sit around smoke..we have lives and things to do. However, if you ever did have a lifestyle of Akuna Matata..then weed is possibly the greatest natural element in existence, but its also got its consequences.

For those of you who still use weed, get off it quick. for those of you who want to try it, but are afraid...then don't be...try it once or twice find out what its like but MOVE ON. Finally, if you have no desire whatsoever to try weed, then consider yourself lucky, but be wary...I was in this category for the longest time.
And if you are like me, then be happy that you've tried it but recognized its harmful side effects quickly and have not gone back down that road.

[nebbit]

Nice post Balance man :cool:

[7thson]

Well as Nebbs knows my new drug is my computer chair it is cushy I must say

[PimpDaShizzle V2.0]

Weed could only change your outlook on life if you're easily influeced by stupid crap. You think things are funny, food taste really good, and then you sober up. No big whoop. You want a life changing experience shoot yourself in the throat and don't call anyone.

[Equilibrium]

Weed could only change your outlook on life if you're easily influeced by stupid crap. You think things are funny, food taste really good, and then you sober up. No big whoop. You want a life changing experience shoot yourself in the throat and don't call anyone.
You've got the physical aspect of weed down, but you miss the point. You're right: things are funny, food tastes really good, and then you sober up. But its noticing that every little thing has good side to it that makes it appealing. When you are stoned, it is easier to see the good side of everything rather than the bad.

For instance, I used to hate reggae music, with a passion. After listening to it stoned I began to recognize elemnts in it that I did like. Now, I cant go two days without listening to at least one Bob Marely song.

I'm not advocating marijuana use, but don't underestimate its ability to open your eyes on life. It has that ability if you are willing to sacrifice money, time, and a sucessful future. Like I said before, you can take the cheap route of drug usage to a happy feeling, or you can do it the most productive and morally accetable way (the real and most gratifying way)...by getting a job and actually living your life rather than living in a high.

[PimpDaShizzle V2.0]

Okay, I don't know how to explain this. I've smoked weed. I've smoked a whole lot of it. I spent the majority of whatever was left from my financial aid on it. Trying to say it has some mystical or magical ability open someone's eyes is kind of ridiculous. If someone needs weed to respect something they've got other issues. If the only reason you like reggea music is because you heard it high maybe you don't really like reggea music. There's nothign wrong with that. There' too many holes in what you say too. In order for your comment to be valid you'd have to experience everything high to in order to experience THE AWESOME POWER OF WEED. And that is bullsh_t. Either you do it and you're cool with that or you don't and that's fine.

For some reason this is going to make me angry.

[nebbit]

Well as Nebbs knows my new drug is my computer chair it is cushy I must say


:laugh:

[Equilibrium]

Okay, I don't know how to explain this. I've smoked weed. I've smoked a whole lot of it. I spent the majority of whatever was left from my financial aid on it. Trying to say it has some mystical or magical ability open someone's eyes is kind of ridiculous. If someone needs weed to respect something they've got other issues. If the only reason you like reggea music is because you heard it high maybe you don't really like reggea music. There's nothign wrong with that. There' too many holes in what you say too. In order for your comment to be valid you'd have to experience everything high to in order to experience THE AWESOME POWER OF WEED. And that is bullsh_t. Either you do it and you're cool with that or you don't and that's fine.

For some reason this is going to make me angry.

There is no "awesome power of weed" but unless it had something appealing to you about it, then you wouldn't have spent your money on it. And I think its very unfair to question someone's mental status based on wether or not they liked a certain type of music high or sober. The fact is (maybe not for you in which case hat sucks for you) but weed makes you more relaxed and OPEN to other things. If anything you'll have respect for that you thought as stupid before you got high. Don't lecture me about having a stance on weed, I do have one and I've made it clear in my earlier posts. Drugs are a bad thing....but its one thing to say they are wholly bad and another to be ignorant about them.

[PimpDaShizzle V2.0]

Yeah, weed was appealing because it multiplied my lazyness by, I don't know, around 1,000. I'm not lecturing your stance on weed either, you made it clear that weed is bad but you should try it. I like tempting myself by doing something once or twice and then saying I can't do this anymore, too..... no I don't.

My problem with what you're saying is that weed opens your eyes, or whatever, and makes you more relaxed and willing to except something else. I think that if someone needs weed, or any outside variable, to respect something else that's a problem in itself. People should be able to respect those things without drugs. <-- That's my point.

[Equilibrium]

Yeah, weed was appealing because it multiplied my lazyness by, I don't know, around 1,000. I'm not lecturing your stance on weed either, you made it clear that weed is bad but you should try it. I like tempting myself by doing something once or twice and then saying I can't do this anymore, too..... no I don't.

My problem with what you're saying is that weed opens your eyes, or whatever, and makes you more relaxed and willing to except something else. I think that if someone needs weed, or any outside variable, to respect something else that's a problem in itself. People should be able to respect those things without drugs. <-- That's my point.

Thanks for the clarification, in that case I agree with you.

[Piddzilla]

Sure, in the best-case scenarios. Most just wallow, though. I should hope there isn't any disagreement with the idea that regular smokers are far more likely to be lazy bums than Bob Marley.


There is a lot of disagreement with that idea actually. Simply because you are stereotyping, so to speak.

Regular smokers are not more likely to be lazy bums than regular drinkers. I'm both a regular drinker and a regular smoker, only with pretty wide gaps between every drinking and especially every smoking occasion. And I'm not a lazy bum.

I am just one single case and not an addict, of course, but there is good research on the subject of wether drug addicts are lazy bums or not. Berit Andersson's book "Att förstå drogmissbruk" (="To Understand Drug Abuse") is a very good study of the lives of drug addicts. Andersson is showing how (mostly heroin) addicts bust their asses every day to get money for drugs. It is surprising how many of the cases she's studied that actually go to a regular job every morning and then after that job is done goes on to work long into the night, legally or illegally, to support their addiction and in some cases their families.

And Bob Marley we have to remember was an addict who couldn't function without marijuana just like I feel tired and irritated if I don't drink coffee at least once a day. I knew a music producer once who told me that he recorded a band who when they came into the studio in the "morning" were moody and argued about everything and it was impossible to get anything done before they'd had their first joint of the day. Then everything worked smoothly: they were being well mannered, creative, efficient and professional. The producer himself didn't smoke weed but he said it was impossible to work with the band when they hadn't.

The stereotype of the cannabis user is the one of the cannabis abuser, for instance the character played by Brad Pitt in True Romance: a guy sitting with his bong on the couch all day. And in the cases of the lazy bums I think the problem is that they really don't have anything better to do with their lives. They smoke a lot because they are lazy bums, they don't become lazy bums from smoking (even if that's possible too). And in the long run they are of course risking a life long addiction.

I think Da Pimp said it best when he said:

Drugs. Use but don't abuse.

I agree, but only when it comes to alcohol and cannabis. The harder stuff play tricks with your mind. And it is of course never a bad thing to stay completely sober and free from all kinds of drugs. Just don't make such a damn big deal out of someone smoking a spliff. [EDIT] And that works both ways. Smoking cannabis doesn't bring you to another dimension or any of that crap. But just like drinking a couple of cool beers on a hot summer's night ( :p ), there are definately positive aspects of cannabis as well.

[/rant]

[Equilibrium]

Smoking cannabis doesn't bring you to another dimension or any of that crap. But just like drinking a couple of cool beers on a hot summer's night ( :p ), there are definately positive aspects of cannabis as well.

[/rant]

LOL, it may not bring you to another dimension...but you certainly aren't in this one when you smoke. As bob marely would say..smoking the herb reveals you to yourself.

[chicagofrog]

smoking the herb reveals you to yourself.

or makes you feel better than you actually do, or than you actually deserve, and makes you impermeate to self-criticism and introspection or or or... :rolleyes:

[PimpDaShizzle V2.0]

Wow, the frog comes out of left field with some nifty words and a cool avatar. :D

[chicagofrog]

well i couldn't make you wait for me any longer... i've got a heart you know!! ;) :)

[PimpDaShizzle V2.0]

I really do agree with what you said though.

[chicagofrog]

Originally Posted by Yoda
Most just wallow, though.

i thought for a while i'd read "most don't swallow though". then i would agree...

(and thanx Pimp)

[Piddzilla]

LOL, it may not bring you to another dimension...but you certainly aren't in this one when you smoke. As bob marely would say..smoking the herb reveals you to yourself.

or makes you feel better than you actually do, or than you actually deserve, and makes you impermeate to self-criticism and introspection or or or... :rolleyes:

I really think the idea that you enter another world while high on cannabis is very exaggerated. It makes you experience things differently and often stronger than while being sober, yes, but it's absolutely not an "I CAN FINALLY SEE!!!"-experience. At least not to me. I have discovered that, as with alcohol, weed as well as it can make me relax and feel comfortable it can sometimes instead make me feel moody or introvert. It simply strengthens the feelings you are feeling, whether it be good or bad feelings. So, yes, in a way it reveals me to myself, I guess.

[chicagofrog]

I have discovered that, as with alcohol,(...) It simply strengthens the feelings you are feeling

alcohol does that to me, especially in combination with music, a lil bit less with movies. quite the contrary with weed, which makes so many people i know dull, duller, and then sleepy.
but then again, it might, can (must??), be a question of accostumance, since i'm really used to my daily 3/4 of a bottle of vodka or rum taken in 2-3 hours in the evening, but a joint makes me sick, and when one is sick there's not so much time left for self-discoveries other than yr stomach's capacities of resistance...

[Equilibrium]

I really think the idea that you enter another world while high on cannabis is very exaggerated. It makes you experience things differently and often stronger than while being sober, yes, but it's absolutely not an "I CAN FINALLY SEE!!!"-experience. At least not to me. I have discovered that, as with alcohol, weed as well as it can make me relax and feel comfortable it can sometimes instead make me feel moody or introvert. It simply strengthens the feelings you are feeling, whether it be good or bad feelings. So, yes, in a way it reveals me to myself, I guess.

I completely agree with you. In fact I even said earlier in this thread that if i was feeling bad before i smoked...the weed made it worse. And I also never said it was a "I CAN FINALLY SEE!!" experience either. but it is obvious thats a different experience for everyone. For me, a kid who has been straight edge his whole life....it completely flipped everything around me upside down.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I completely agree with you. In fact I even said earlier in this thread that if i was feeling bad before i smoked...the weed made it worse. And I also never said it was a "I CAN FINALLY SEE!!" experience either. but it is obvious thats a different experience for everyone. For me, a kid who has been straight edge his whole life....it completely flipped everything around me upside down.
Do you think the "flipping everything upside down" came from doing something non-straightedge, or was purely from the effect of the weed?

[Austruck]

This is an interestingly semi-pointless thread for me. As a teen I never had an interest in drugs or alcohol. I had a great group of friends, and we all hung out together all the time without getting drunk or high or having sex with each other. And, we were popular, smart, fun, and are all still friends today. (I'm 44.)

I don't feel I've missed a *thing* by not smoking pot. (I do drink on occasion now, but it's purely a social thing. First time I got tipsy, I was 37!) I like being sober and lucid, and I'd rather discover things about myself, my world, and my God while I'm totally "me."

Plus, there's the really practical side of me: I'd rather spend my money on new computer games or saving for a better car!

Boring post, I know, but hey. That's been my experience. I'm not a goody-two-shoes. I just never saw the point of it all. Even in really rough times of life, I haven't wanted to escape "myself." Eventually, I would have had to come back to myself anyway.

[Equilibrium]

Do you think the "flipping everything upside down" came from doing something non-straightedge, or was purely from the effect of the weed?

Both. Like everyone else has said weed enhances feelings..so when I did it...it enhanced my feeling of being non-straightedge.

[Equilibrium]

This is an interestingly semi-pointless thread for me. As a teen I never had an interest in drugs or alcohol. I had a great group of friends, and we all hung out together all the time without getting drunk or high or having sex with each other. And, we were popular, smart, fun, and are all still friends today. (I'm 44.)

I don't feel I've missed a *thing* by not smoking pot. (I do drink on occasion now, but it's purely a social thing. First time I got tipsy, I was 37!) I like being sober and lucid, and I'd rather discover things about myself, my world, and my God while I'm totally "me."

Plus, there's the really practical side of me: I'd rather spend my money on new computer games or saving for a better car!

Boring post, I know, but hey. That's been my experience. I'm not a goody-two-shoes. I just never saw the point of it all. Even in really rough times of life, I haven't wanted to escape "myself." Eventually, I would have had to come back to myself anyway.

Its not a boring post. I quite enjoyed reading it and thats the way I see myself at 44. In high school i had the same types of friends you had. I just started in college. I still don't drink though. Weed is one thing but alchohol is so much worse, physically at least.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I've never done much with drugs, either.
I was very straight-edge when I was a teen (didn't even drink caffeinated soft-drinks). I didn't get tipsy til I was 23. I tried pot, but it had no effect on me, aside from making my hands smell awful and burning my throat. I may end up trying it again if my glaucoma gets worse, though. I think it's perfectly stupid that it's illegal to grow and use an herb. Pot is illegal because RJ Reynolds didn't want the competition with his tobacco industry, and he had a politician or two in his hip pocket. Weed is not the same as hard drugs.

My brother though... he's done it all. You name it. Plenty of it. And it's not only wrecked his life pretty good (if he can hold down a job for 6 months, that's quite a run for him... lousy relationships... ) but it's wrecked him. He has hallucinations when he's awake and night terrors when he's asleep. His relationships with people he cares about have mostly been reduced to finding ways to get money out of them. He's incredibly paranoid and suspicious of everyone. He used to write stories and make art, and that's all gone now - no creative drive and no joy from doing the things he loved. I've known a couple of addicts (thanks, AOL!) and this is true of every one of them.

Obviously all of that didn't come from trying drugs once or twice. But it's SUCH a common end for people who 'try' drugs many times. It's so not worth messing with, considering the risks. That idea that drugs will release the inner "you" is complete crap - it turns you into Every Addict Alive as soon as it gets ahold of you.

[Austruck]

I still don't drink though. Weed is one thing but alchohol is so much worse, physically at least.

Hmm ... not sure I agree with that. Are you speaking in general, or when abused?

In any case, I'll be honest: It's hard for me -- as a non-user -- to hear anyone who uses pot say it's all right and not think they're just hoping to justify their own use.

I may drink on occasion, but if someone suddenly uninvented alcoholic beverages, I'm not sure I'd ever notice. It's a non-issue for me. And, if I do have an urge to justify it, I can always say it's biblical. :D

[starrdarcy]

both are not good, even drinking a little can be sometimes bad.

[Austruck]

Just about *anything* can sometimes be bad. Sometimes eating can be bad. Sometimes sleeping can be bad. Just because there might be a context in which something is bad, doesn't mean it is therefore inherently bad.

[Equilibrium]

Hmm ... not sure I agree with that. Are you speaking in general, or when abused?

In any case, I'll be honest: It's hard for me -- as a non-user -- to hear anyone who uses pot say it's all right and not think they're just hoping to justify their own use.

I may drink on occasion, but if someone suddenly uninvented alcoholic beverages, I'm not sure I'd ever notice. It's a non-issue for me. And, if I do have an urge to justify it, I can always say it's biblical. :D

While a drink a day may not do much, don't forget that alchohol is a a poisonous substances. I'm not trying to compare but smoking pot afffects your lungs majorly while alchohol eats your liver. The thing is, alcohol works faster...so if you compared two people one a long term smoker and one a long term driner you'd find that the drinker is in much worse physical shape.

[Austruck]

I'm sure I was clear that I wasn't talking about abuse of alcohol. I'm sure I was clear that I only drink occasionally (and boy, do I mean occasionally). And no, it's certainly not clear that a very occasional drink "eats your liver." There have been studies about limited amounts of wine actually doing you more good than possible harm.

Alcohol is not inherently a "poisonous substance."

[Piddzilla]

Plus, there's the really practical side of me: I'd rather spend my money on new computer games or saving for a better car!


The people you know must either smoke boat loads of ganja or drive real sh!tty cars.

[Austruck]

Here's a picture of my car, which I got about a year and a half ago for $225. Yeah, baby, yeaaahhhh. ;)

Obviously it's the latter. :D

[Eyes]

i feel like that last guy in the battlefield stick movie who comes upon the scene and wonders what the hell happened. i missed three pages of posts

[Equilibrium]

I'm sure I was clear that I wasn't talking about abuse of alcohol. I'm sure I was clear that I only drink occasionally (and boy, do I mean occasionally). And no, it's certainly not clear that a very occasional drink "eats your liver." There have been studies about limited amounts of wine actually doing you more good than possible harm.

Alcohol is not inherently a "poisonous substance."

Read your studies again mate. Alchohol is poison. Its a toxic substance not found naturally. Secondly, read my post again I made it 'clear' that occasional drinks are not what I was talking about. Don't reply to my posts if you feel like I was attacking you because I wasn't. Also don't reply to my posts if you didn't even bother to read them correctly.

[7thson]

i feel like that last guy in the battlefield stick movie who comes upon the scene and wonders what the hell happened. i missed three pages of postsI feel ya.:)...I must have been high or drunk or something.

[fireslave]

Here's a picture of my car, which I got about a year and a half ago for $225. Yeah, baby, yeaaahhhh. ;)

Obviously it's the latter. :D

kickass...

chicks dig cars with missing hubcaps... it says you're 'rugged'

[fireslave]

oh. incase you were wondering, pot does indeed make everything funny...

you just have to smoke alot of it...

[7thson]

kickass...

chicks dig cars with missing hubcaps... it says you're 'rugged'
Damn no wonder I dont get laid, I am turning corners more sharply now.

[Equilibrium]

Damn no wonder I dont get laid, I am turning corners more sharply now.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[chicagofrog]

Weed is one thing but alchohol is so much worse, physically at least.

nope, you should look at me, i still look like 25! no *****, that's what they keep telling me...

[Austruck]

fireslave, I *am* a chick. I drive this car because it's what I can afford. :)

Equilibrium, I did read the last few posts in which you were responding to me. And I too was very clear I wasn't talking about overuse of alcohol. You may not have been "attacking" me (which I never said you were, BTW), but you were responding to my posts.

Sorry if I don't agree that alcohol in itself is a poison. And, if you leave grapes out long enough, yes, it does occur naturally. At least as naturally as lighting leaves and smoking them. ;) ;) ;)

I was trying to banter lightly about this. I'm not advocating one use or the other, BTW. I was taking a position based on things I've read. Aside from glaucoma and very few other uses, I haven't read many studies on the health benefits of pot. There *are* studies out there like that on alcohol -- *light* usage, of course.

And, as we all know, you can probably find a study that supports just about any view on any topic you want, so this is probably a dead issue. I was merely challenging your blanket statement that "alcohol is a poisonous substance."

Drano is a poisonous substance, even in small quantities, and for everyone. I'd hardly put a glass of merlot in the same category as Drano (unless it's a really really bad merlot). :D

[chicagofrog]

i'd settle for peyote!!!!!!!!

[Caitlyn]

i'd settle for peyote!!!!!!!!


I hope you have a supply of barf bags on hand…

[casa]

Sorry if I don't agree that alcohol in itself is a poison.
theres nothing to agree or disagree about its a fact.

anyhoo this is just one of those topics where theres no right or wrong answers, just opinions (thats why i stopped trying to debate it with yoda)

and caityln isnt joking you really do need to be next to a toilet after ingesting that stuff

[starrdarcy]

and caityln isnt joking you really do need to be next to a toilet after ingesting that stuff
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Golgot]

Yes, I know. And you hold as an absolute that it's never good to speak in them. ;)

Well, i wouldn't go that far... ;)

Let's just say i've learnt to treat absolutes with as much healthy scepticism as is practically possible :).

Which means we agree on the following (and many other things)...

Personally, I find reluctancy to condemn things far more worrisome, especially when it comes to things like drugs.

Sure. Just for the record tho, are you appying that to me? Coz i've happily condemned the downsides of drugs on this thread. But, as with Seds, i've mainly been arguing against the absolute just-say-no stance (and as such i've been emphasing the positive side of illegal drugs).

You might see this as a well-meaning 'open-minded' road to degredation, or some such thing. That's primarily coz you're not convinced that illegal drugs carry any positive attributes beyond facile enjoyment - IE attributes which can make their occasional ingestion worthwhile.

I'll try and convince you otherwise...

I'd argue with whether or not it's particularly creative in any meaningful sense of the word. I've found many strange, nonsensical things intriguining, even though they were not particularly impressive. In my mind, the kind of art that is drug-induced is not the deep kind of art that inspires and provides insight; it is the kind of art that merely entertains. Needless to say, I think less of that kind.

To pick a convenient artist... Would you say the work of Duke Ellington is purely valuable because it imparts pleasure? Don't you feel that it does more than that? That it provides insight into the human condition, perhaps? That it provides comfort and a sense of empathy when troubled? That it soothes anger, or incites activity? (And incidently, there's an interesting overview of how music can positively affect productivity etc in that link i provided in my last post :)).

Would you say these things aren't deep? Or meaningful? Or valuable?

I want to make it clear here that I'm in no way saying Ellington's music is how it is primarily coz he and his band smoked ganja. I think the qualities in their music existed both within them and around them already. However, from my own experiences, I can imagine that ganja helped them to explore novel avenues in terms of idea/emotion-expression and technical 're-invention'.

Given the wealth of creative people (musicians, filmmakers, poets, painters, even scientists...you name it...) who turn to drugs of this nature, two major possibilities suggest themselves: either these drugs help their creative efforts (which i believe they do), or they are something that people of that disposition instinctively turn to/'require' (this is where careful social enfranchisment of those drugs could be a positive step - IE by processing them so the drugs so they are less damaging and facilitating a climate of care to stop users becoming abusers).

Anyway, my initial disagreements came from the fact that the discussion has been, by and large, about the pros and cons of drugs, and taking drugs on the off chance that they'll help you create something which may or may not resemble art of some kind doesn't strike me as much of a pro when lined against the much more ample, tangible cons.

This is the problem of the esoteric drugs like 'hallucinogens' - their benefits are hard to define - but that doesn't mean they can't produce concrete benefits (that can at least balance out their concrete risks ;)).
I'll try attempt to categorize their useful aspects...

I'm open to conflicting viewpoints on this. Can you give me any examples of genuine insights that you reached through drug use?

Many of the (generic) insights i've experienced have come while on 'hallucinogenic' drugs of varying descriptions. The majority have been ultimately inward-looking ones that helped me understand myself better, but at the same time they often relied on me appreciating the world around me in a different way (to reassess my place within it). Just remember that these experiences distinguish themselves from 'straight' experiences thanks to their huge potency and 'unavoidablility' - IE once they start, you can't 'close your eyes' to them...

- 'A feeling of complex oneness' - This one is the most striking, singular and easy-to-describe of the hallucinogen-related 'insights' that can occur. It could indeed be a delusion though (but even if it is, it's still positive :)). What it entails is what it says: That you feel, palpably, that the world is mind-bogglingly complex, and yet at the same time there is some form of consistancy and sense to it, and that you are part of it, if a small part. That smallness doesn't matter tho - there is an element of belonging, and of 'awe', that makes the whole experience incredibly potent on both an intangible and practical level.

What's the insight? - The world is a beautiful, cruel, good, evil, complex place. And we're all 'a chip off the old block' ;)

- 'Extreme tests of self' - There are two ways this can go. Sometimes you become swamped by a series of guilt-linked memories, and are forced to experience them again (and you have no choice but to learn from them, or collapse under their weight). At other times you can practice/exert ego-led discipline on your self, and turn each negative into a positive - forcing the chain of experiences to follow the most positive (and pleasing) route of association possible. [personally, I think the latter is an interesting and practical discipline, but you learn more from the former].

What's the insight? - I've been a bastard. I've done wrong. I'll have to strive to stop myself doing so again (and these things will involve self-control).

---

There are of course more enjoyable reflections and mental dalliances that can come on hallucinogens, and also empathic moments of understanding between friends and strangers etc which can be similar to ecstacy/'pill' experiences etc, which can also be constructive, as well as enjoyable - but you wanted me to remove enjoyment from the equation yeah? ;)

Yep. But it's one I'm pretty confident in. What else do you expect me to say when someone pops a pill and suddenly finds a lava lamp fascinating? I suppose it's technically possible that there's all sorts of incredible meaning in the things around me that can only be grasped by altering the chemicals in my brain, but I think reason dictates that it's far more likely to just be a mental light show.

I mainly agree with you on all these things as you've laid them out (including the 'incredible meanings' bit ;)). Firstly though, I want to make one distinction. What you've described -fascination with an object- tallies with both 'hallucinogenic' and ecstacy/'pill' experiences. The emphasis of the latter drug is more on a feeling of well-meaningness towards people and the world. Seds has already pointed out that, when applied to people, this can be very useful as far as increasing human empathy and healing relationships goes. I've had similar experiences (and i think you'd struggle to say occasional use to achieve this aim isn't worthwhile)

However, I've also experienced productive sides to the ellusive phenomenon you touch on (IE 'fascination with small things' and 'mental light shows') which are more the norm on 'hallucinogens'. These experiences suggest that the mental bar has been raised in some ways as much as it's been lowered in others....

1) Fascination with 'small' things - and their place in the world

Fascination with an object on hallucinogens reflects a fascination with underlying logics, forms and wider interconnections (IMO). The viewer can take some small appreciation they've gained via their prolonged enthrallment away with them, allowing it to guide emerging actions and thoughts in their 'straight' life.
In the case of the lava-lamp devotee, who is just having fun, it's still conceivable that they might learn something new: IE if they are a scientist who works on brownian-motion, for example, or a lava-lamp dealer who's just realised how cool a wall-mounted product might look etc ;). (It's interesting to note too that even fun passtimes can lead to productive outcomes, btw :))

That's a very slender example, admittadly, but the whole point about inspiration and insights is that they can come from the strangest, and indeed, the most 'banal' places. My opinion is that all sorts of arts, sciences and social structures/norms are informed and improved by the following mental faculties, which are exagerrated under 'hallucinogens'...

The 'fixation' phenomenon is interesting because it allows two normal contradictory mental states to exist in concert: fixation on the small combined with awareness of global/over-arching norms. These are two facilities of the brain that don't often sit comfortably together in our daily mental state, because, for efficiency reasons, we can't take in every little detail about each object surrounding us - nor can we hold ready in the forefront of our minds all of the various norms and consistancies we have encountered throughout our lives.

This is the luxury and the oddity of hallucinogens (on a minor level in ganja, and a potent/extreme level in the numerous varieties of LSD-type products). They encourage you to spend time 'absorbing' an object or phenomenon, and in concert, they flood your brain with a huge range of associations. Basically, they emphasise these two useful mental capacities (which lie more on the 'instinctive'/unconscious end of the mental scale - and as such cannot be allowed to dominate our daily thoughts and actions, but still inform them nevertheless).

When we try and evaluate norms, processes and 'roles' with our 'daily' mindset, we have to use consciousness-led reductionism as a rule. This is a very practical system, but it has its flaws. The associations we make follow a more tried-and-tested pattern, so it's harder to spot valid exceptions and new ways of categorising the world etc. Sometimes working from the 'bottom up' is better: this is what hallucinogens facilitate, by inundating us with associations and giving us novel appreciations of how 'single' phenomenon fit into the whole etc. (NB - I'll tackle the huge potential for misapprehensions etc in the next section)

Any appreciations of underlying consistancies, intriguing similarities or novel applications gained while in an artificially-ruminative state can still be put into practical use during normal life. An artist can find ways to communicate appreciations of life-aspects that are difficult to reduce into our standard modes of communication. Scientists can create the vocabulary necessary to describe new appreciations of how the world works. Etc etc.

So.... Getting fascinated by the components and connections inherent in every object around can be beneficial, to my mind... - but minds are tricky things. Maybe your right. Maybe it's all a trick of the light...a piece of mental sleight-of-hand...

2) The 'mental light show'

Hallucination is something that can also cause fascination with an object - and it's what most people think about when they think of the poorly named 'hallucinogens'.

It is, however, the most 'unprofound' of the mental alterations that occur - although it is a good analogy for the mental inundation with associations and connections that accompanies it.

But so what? Doesn't that mean that your brain is just being fooled into making spurious connections just as your eyes are? I'd say yes, in many cases. The majority of the connections are ridiculous, absurd, irrelevant or spurious. The question here then is...

Can we learn anything from altering our mindset in this way - or is it all delusion?

I've already asserted above that we can learn real things about the world and ourselves-as-individuals by taking hallucinogens. I can attest that the latter is true, and not a delusion, thanks to my own experiences of being forced to confront troubling memories etc (and i've cited the extreme experiences of iboga-users in a previous post).

What we learn about the world is normally more esoteric, and by the time it's put into practice/incorporated into our conscious world, the process that led us there has receeded into the mists of the unconscious. As such I don't expect to be able to convince you that such a process occurs, or that we can discern valid truths amongst the blizzard of mental activity that hallucinogens prompt (although I will point out that you normally realise when you've incorporated a spurious belief, because it simply won't tally with your experiences over time). Instead, I'll settle for expanding on the fascinating alterations caused by these mysterious drugs, to highlight what they can teach us about how our minds work:

A major thing that hallucinogens make explicit (on later reflection) is that your mind is a machine of sorts: It has evolved (or been designed, if you prefer ;)) to do certain things, to narrow down all the input you're receiving into what is, hopefully, the most pertinent info. Everyone can understand this concept (which science has shown to be true), but it's something else entirely to experience it from the 'outside'. IE - On strong hallucinogens you experience what your brain is like when it isn't limiting its sphere of inquiry in its normal way. It's the ultimate 'thought experiment' ;).

When we visually hallucinate, what we seem to be seeing is an example of how both our visual systems and mental approach to life is based around pattern-seeking. The brain is a pattern-seeking machine. What hallucinogens do, as a rule, is allow you (greater) conscious access to a broader array of learnt life 'patterns' and the singular/'exceptional' personal experiences that it would be impractical to be 'stumbling upon' consciously everytime you saw something or had a thought. You also become aware of how your conscious self is only one aspect of you, and that in many ways it is as much at the beck and call of our unconscious selves as it is the lord and master.

All of these things are now recognised truths amongst the neurological, psychological and general scientific communities. They are realities that it's beneficial to 'experience'.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the major insight that comes from having a strong hallucinogenic experience?

Well, for me, the general insight is that I've learnt to 'listen' to my brain more at times when my conscious self is in repose (to catch the other aspects of my mind/self 'thinking on its own' as it were): IE seizing on ideas that come as i'm drifting off to sleep - catching meditations that you slip into, concerning something you've just read etc, just as they come to fruition 'on their own'. Stuff like that. Stuff we all do, but having had these drug-experiences facilitates these reveries a little, and galvanizes you to 'capture' them, because you know they can hold great worth.

Regardless of that, this sort of ties into what I said above; is the vague possibility of some mild creative burst really justification for drug use? And, more to the point, is it really the reason most people use drugs? I'm betting no, especially on the second one.

Some of the experiences i mentioned aren't mild. Neither, of course, are the downsides. (Acid in particular can be particularly traumatic, and long-term/foolish use can lead to life-destryoing delusions, and premature mental-dissolution. Ganja can cause paranoia, sloth, long-term mental-health risks, and well, death-by-cancer).

That's why i wouldn't advocate using them too flippantly or too regularly (which is normally no fun anyway). But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be used at all.

[PimpDaShizzle V2.0]

Judging by the size of that thing I'll agree.

[nebbit]

Judging by the size of that thing I'll agree.

Thats our Gollygosh :laugh:

[chicagofrog]

Judging by the size of that thing I'll agree.

reminds me of my last girlfriend... :D