View Full Version : Multiple Bombings: World Trade Center/Pentagon
They're support to report things that might be news, IMO, and I have no problem with it, as long as they say it is unconfirmed, which I always hear them do. And no, O'Reilly does not just present his side...he is constantly begging people on the other side to come on, and when they want to, they get to. He almost never has yes-men on with him. He's been trying to get Jesse Jackson on for years, because it's becoming quite evident that he's cheating on his taxes.
You critcize O'Reilly for having someone from the opposite viewpoint on the show, and then doing his best to make the case he believes is right? Explain that to me. :)
If you don't wany ANY opinion, then you can't have any analysts on...and that would be stupid, because they can teach us a lot, because people like that have dedicated a good portion of their lives to that subject. I for one think I can learn from them.
sunfrog
09-25-01, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
You critcize O'Reilly for having someone from the opposite viewpoint on the show, and then doing his best to make the case he believes is right? Explain that to me. :)
Because he's a newscaster. He should just tell the truth. See it's all about the desk. I hate his desk.
And people don't want to be on his show because he sucks. lol. When they don't come on he uses that to his advantage.
When they do come on he goes, here's TWT who hates Clinton and here's Sun who loves him. Then during the debate he joins sides with his side and it's two against one. Then he goes, there you have it, we had both sides on.
I don't want any anylsts on. I learned that from the stock market. For every guy with fancy credentials saying the stock market is gonna go up you can find one that says it's going down. What's the point of listening to them? You can do that with politics too. They all have fancy credentials and they all have different opinions. In the end it's up to you yourself and what you believe. I think the market is going to stay down, 'specially with war coming. No one's gonna go shopping if they think the mall might blown up.
Uh, a lot of his debates are just him and someone else. I don't see how on earth you can criticize him of only showing his point of view when he constantly has people who disagree with him on the show. Are you saying that he should hold a debate where he doesn't voice his opinion? Oh yeah, great idea. :D Honestly man, it's almost never two against one -- certainly not more than any of the other news people that you hate much less.
I don't want any anylsts on. I learned that from the stock market. For every guy with fancy credentials saying the stock market is gonna go up you can find one that says it's going down. What's the point of listening to them? You can do that with politics too.
That's rather flippant, don't you think? If you know what you're doing, analysts are INVALUABLE. Completely priceless, man. Just because you don't always get a 100% clear, unamious opinion from all of them, it doesn't mean you can't learn from them. If you honestly believe that these people, who spend years researching their specialities, can't teach us, normal people without any of that knowledge, anything useful, then you crazy man. ;D
sunfrog
09-25-01, 04:40 AM
They all spend years studying that stuff. Every one of them. They're not totally worthless, but they're not good in the way you think. If you listen closely you can get some facts from what they say but you have to filter it. Like if Joe says war is good for the economy but Mary says no, it scares consumers, then they have a debate. That didn't do any good. What you did learn is that in the past America was more industrialized, but now America is more technology based. Stuff like that. You can pick up little tidbits of info about things but it's still up to you to decide what it means.
What I think you think is, Joe's been studying this for ten years so he must be right. Mary's been studying it for ten years too. Who are you going to believe? It's not just politics and the stock market, it's everything you can think of, like movies and religion and science and art and fashion and on and on...
Analysts are good for learning stuff but not good for believing. Did that make sense? An analyst is just a person with an opinion. We fight about the same things they do on tv. We quote them and they quote each other, what's the difference? Except they make a lot of money and get to be on tv. :)
Whew! Since I typed so many words today can that count as 200 posts? ;)
That wasn't me PLite, I used spell check! :)
Analysts are different because they probably know more about the subject at hand than most of us. If you acknowledge that information can be gathered from them, why do you think they're bad?
To be honest, I think you're stretching here. I mean, honestly, you're making it sound like analysts are just a bunch of normal people who got thrown on some show who yell at each other and say almost nothing worthwhile. Just because you've got two people arguing, it's not as if they just cancel each other out. Anyone who watches a truly serious and well-laid-out debate ought to come out smarter/more educated as a result. That's why commentary is a good thing.
I don't want to just hear that the stock market is down: I want some analysts on there talking about why it is, and what it might do next.
Originally posted by TWTCommish
Well, I only have your word here, but I'll take it anyway, and concede that point...partially because it doesn't apply to my argument. :) Mwahahaha, I shall never give in. :D
We'll honestly I already forgot what your argument was.:D I think it had to do with Sunfrog anyway...
Also, I really don't feel like continuing that economics debate because it takes too much energy. I wrote a paper on Reaganomics vs Thatchernomics last year, and it took me ******* forever, so I really don't feel like doing it again.:p Plus that debates going no where, I'll never change your mind and you'll never change mine.
[Edited by TWTCommish on 09-25-2001]
Alright, no big deal either way. Thatchernomics...hadn't heard of that. Interesting...I'll have to check it out.
Thatchernomics is exactly the same thing as Reaganomics, only with Margret Thatcher behind the name.
LOL, ok. That explains it. Thanks. In that case, I now declare the creation of "Bowyernomics." :)
PigsnieLite
09-30-01, 04:38 AM
I dont know who the hick OReilly is but I was just curious about somethin. Ever since the bombing, have any of you guys started puttin flags on your clothes or car or front of your house? Everytime the BBC show clips of americans now, it seems that everyones wearin a flag someplace.
ryanpaige
09-30-01, 04:58 AM
I haven't put any flags on anything, but I have seen a lot more flags around these days.
sunfrog
10-01-01, 02:12 AM
Not me. Flags are sold out everywhere. I don't understand it anyway. What does it mean, a flag? it should be some other symbol. What does a flag have to do with anything?
ryanpaige
10-01-01, 02:37 AM
What other symbol so succinctly expresses pride in our country and all that it stands for?
PigsnieLite
10-01-01, 02:40 AM
Hamburgers & french fries, YAY!!!! :p
Originally posted by sunfrog
Not me. Flags are sold out everywhere. I don't understand it anyway. What does it mean, a flag? it should be some other symbol. What does a flag have to do with anything?
What other symbol do you have in mind? The American flag is more universally associated with America than anything. Sure, the flag is just an IDEA, but that's why it fits...if we used a picture of the Statue of Liberty, it wouldn't be very good...something could happen to the Statue. Imagine if the WTC was our symbol of America. :) Things can happen...which is why flags represent countries, partially -- it's just a concept/idea.
Anyway, I think it's wonderful that they're sold out...and I hope they restock them quickly, because I have a feeling this will last for quite awhile. C'mon sungfrog, you really don't understand it? How can ya not understand why people look to the American flag? I'll bet PLite even understands. :D (haha)
PigsnieLite
10-01-01, 03:27 AM
The American flag is a universal thingie, kinda like the moon. If you see the american flag you know there is a Mcdonalds nearby, hahaha. :p BTW, how many of you guys think of the union Jack when you think of Britain? I bet none of you do. I bet you think of Lady Di or the Queen or shakespeare or Monty python, right? Its like when I think of Oz, I think of the croc hunter or rusell crowe. :)
When I think of Britland, I think of a cobbled stone street where the ground is wet, as if it's just rained.
Snakes47
10-01-01, 02:22 PM
All the flags being put up everywhere, are like little bandages....helping to heal everyone's wounds.
Steve
ryanpaige
10-01-01, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
BTW, how many of you guys think of the union Jack when you think of Britain? I bet none of you do.
But when I see the Union Jack, I think of Britain, which would be the closer analogy to what we are talking about in regards to the U.S. flag.
sunfrog
10-01-01, 08:00 PM
I know what the American flag symbolizes but why are we putting them up now? I don't get it. What does it have to do with buildings?
Like if they burned our flag ok, we could put up more flags, like to say, oh yeah? We have more flags! But it's like we're saying, you can blow up our buildings but we have flags!
When I think of Britland I think of the Bucking ham Palace gaurds in their red suits and big hats.
Why now? To display our pride in being an American. That's like saying "Why are people angrier at terrorists now than they were before?" Isn't it obvious?
Like if they burned our flag ok, we could put up more flags, like to say, oh yeah? We have more flags! But it's like we're saying, you can blow up our buildings but we have flags!
I think you're completely missing the point. It's a "they can take our lives, but they cannot take our freedom" kind of thing. It's a way of showing them that, even if they were able to destroy the WTC, they cannot destory America, and what America stands for. That's why freedom is enduring: because it's an idea, and not a building or something physical. If, to keep America free, we had to keep a flag from being burned, it wouldn't last. We need ideals, not objects.
Honestly, I'm not getting your point, Frogman.
Frederica
10-01-01, 09:36 PM
When I think of Britland I think of good BBC drama on A&E. And the Beatles. :0 Soory.
About flags. I think they're nice to show we're all united but sometimes I thinks its too easy to buy a flag at the mall. It looks good on tv. We should do stuff that really makes a difference. Like raise money! Or assure our Arab citizens that we will look after them.
ryanpaige
10-01-01, 09:48 PM
We've been raising plenty of money, too.
And our Arab citizens (or guests in the country) have the same assurances that everyone else does in regards to their safety. We cannot offer them any more protection that we do now. Staking police officers out at every Muslim home in the country (or American Indian or Indian, etc.) isn't possible. Prosecuting people who commit crimes against Arabs or anyone else is the best we can do for anyone in this country.
And actually, a person in Texas (and some other states) who commits crimes against someone based on their being a Muslim or Arab or whathaveyou will get a longer sentence than for just a regular crime since we've got new Hate Crimes legislation now. So already, our Arab citizens are getting more protection than others in many cases.
Frederica
10-01-01, 10:00 PM
But my point was we shouldn't be treating Arab citizens any differently from Asian, Hispanic, German citizen in this country! I didn't say anything about police officers. Some neighborhoods come together to watch over some Arab schools or grocery stores run by Arabs. Like a crime watch! But I wasn't talking about laws and adding to the workload of the police force.
ryanpaige
10-01-01, 10:08 PM
Who's to say that isn't already happening as much or more than it ever did, though.
You tried to make the point that people should be doing that which implies that people aren't already doing that.
More importantly, though, why should people be more interested in looking out for one group of people in a protective manner than in othersn (which is what you said you meant, but not what you actually said. You didn't say we should look out for each other. You said we should look out for Arabs)? It's not as if crimes against non-Muslims/non-Arabs, etc. has come to a standstill since September 11th.
Doling out special treatment to a particular group breeds resentment. In the same way that we shouldn't single people out based on religion/ethnicity/skin color, etc. for extra punishment or extra surveillence, we also shouldn't single people out based on those criteria for extra protection.
Frederica
10-01-01, 10:15 PM
OK--I get it.
sunfrog
10-01-01, 10:27 PM
Okay, let me rephrase the question. Why isn't it a black ribbon or a white ribbon or what have you? Why is it the flag?
To me the flag is a symbol of pride, how does that fit in here? Pride in what? See, the flag could be if we were cheering the olympics, or to show support to our armed forces, or if they burned our flag. Those would make sense. We're saying Goooo America! Why??
If it was a black ribbon, that could be for mourning, or a white ribbon like, we'll never forget etc.. See what I mean?
Originally posted by sunfrog
Okay, let me rephrase the question. Why isn't it a black ribbon or a white ribbon or what have you? Why is it the flag?
To me the flag is a symbol of pride, how does that fit in here? Pride in what? See, the flag could be if we were cheering the olympics, or to show support to our armed forces, or if they burned our flag. Those would make sense. We're saying Goooo America! Why??
If it was a black ribbon, that could be for mourning, or a white ribbon like, we'll never forget etc.. See what I mean?
I would not call the flag a symbol of pride, because I think that implies that it stands for pride alone. It stands for one thing: America...America, in turn, stands for many things...chief among them, freedom. We're not saying "Gooooo America!" -- we're saying "I'm proud to be an American," which makes plenty of sense at this point.
We're saying that we love our freedom here and will not give it up. That's the whole point. They hate our way of life, and our freedom, and we're showing them that we don't care, because we're hopelessly in love with our freedom.
FYI for PLite/whoever else might be interested: I heard yesterday that Tony Blair has said he has seen "incontrovertible evidence" that links Bin Laden to the attacks.
Anyone seen that picture of the guy on top of one of the World Trade Center towers with the plane coming in? Well its a shocking picture, untill you realize its fake. Someone proved everyone wrong by making a bunch of pictures like it. I personally think it is some FUNNY stuff:
http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?s=79db6b67d69e8d826597cf61614f84be&threadid=80247&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
That was hilarious! I love the one of him on the "Speed" bus, or next to Godzilla. Hahahahaha...what a great idea. Very clever.
spudracer
10-07-01, 03:11 PM
I can't believe there is someone with that much time on there hands to make those pictures.
Back to subject: AMERICAN IS RETALIATING AS WE SPEAK!!!
sadesdrk
10-07-01, 05:45 PM
I really didn't think the situation was going to esculate to this level...I thought for sure Bin Laden would be turned over to us...I don't know why I was so naive.
The Taliban is obviously being stubborn. This is very upsetting...I only hope that the attack went well. I imagine it did, but I have some doubts that it went perfectly. If it went off without a single problem, I think we'd hear about it very soon...for morale, or something. Isn't that the way we found out about Operation Desert Storm? Shortly afterwards, because it had done so well? Could be wrong...not sure.
Anyway, I hope it went off well. 'Twas very encouraging to have Tony Blair backing us the whole time.
The attack didn't go well. In Time it says that U.S. networks refused to show the tapes, but that on al-Jazeera there were videos of badly burned and dead children. Didn't the prophet Muhammad say "kill no women, children, or non-combatants"? And we wonder why everyone hates us so much.
Originally posted by Steve N.
The attack didn't go well. In Time it says that U.S. networks refused to show the tapes, but that on al-Jazeera there were videos of badly burned and dead children. Didn't the prophet Muhammad say "kill no women, children, or non-combatants"? And we wonder why everyone hates us so much.
We don't follow Muhammad...but they do...obviously they don't pay attention to him either. Wonder why everyone hates us so much? I really hope that's a joke. They hate us because of their religion: if you want, I can tell you a few things about the Muslim faith that may surprise you...it is NOT a tolerant faith at all. They will hate us no matter what.
They hated us before this attack also, I might add: so, what is it that we've done to them that's so terrible before the 11th? This attack was justified, bottom line...at least we give warning, and give them a chance to change...they sneak up on us in the morning and attack nothing but civilians. They deserve more punishment than we can give them.
spudracer
10-16-01, 06:35 PM
Well I heard that a misguided missle hit a civilian house, and there was some lost, but I dont think they've just been hitting anything and everything.
Originally posted by TWTCommish
We don't follow Muhammad...but they do...obviously they don't pay attention to him either. Wonder why everyone hates us so much? I really hope that's a joke. They hate us because of their religion: if you want, I can tell you a few things about the Muslim faith that may surprise you...it is NOT a tolerant faith at all. They will hate us no matter what.
Stop for a minute and think about what you're saying: "They." How dare you make such a generalization about an entire group of people??? That comment, Chris, is positively dripping with ignorance. How many Muslims are there in the world, and how many of them are extremists? It seems to me like you're not making the distinction between the two. Not all Muslims want to kill Americans... So let's hear those few things. I want to know how the Islamic faith is so intolerant. What makes "them" want to kill "us." Aren't you overlooking the fact that there are extreme factions within EVERY religion?
First, we haven't had any PROOF that Osama Bin Laden was behind these attacks. look at this from the viewpoint of a practicing Muslim. Not an extremist, not a fundamentalist, just a devout follower. The United States, the same country that has killed thousands of Iraqi children, stationed soldiers in Saudi Arabia,(home of the most holy and important Muslim cities) and supported Israel, is now attacking a Muslim country with NO proof that a Muslim was behind the attacks. (And, if there was in fact some proof, it hasn't been made public, so there's no absolutely sure way of knowing.) Do you honestly think that all Muslims are so extreme? Personally, I think that most Muslims are so outraged by our attacks because we haven't sufficiently proven to them that a Muslim is responsible for the attack on our country. Consequently, America's actions are seen as attacks not just on Afghanistan, but on the religion itself. The thing is, practicing Muslims DO take the word of Muhammad very seriously, and if I was in that situation I would find it hard to believe that another Muslim was responsible for causing the bloodshed in the United States, most ESPECIALLY when there hasn't been any real proof.
I really hope you think about what you said, TWT. That was a sketchy comment. Let me ask you, what would you do if you worked with someone of Islamic faith? Would you be nervous? Scared? Judging from this post, you already pretty much have your mind made up about Muslims. Sketchy.
Someone back me up here.
[Edited by Steve N. on 10-21-2001]
Uh, Steve? I made no generalization. I am not accusing them all of being extremists. The Muslim religion, however, by definition, is intolerant of us. If you read my post, you'll see that your big long tirade was all for nothing. :) I never once said all Muslims were that extreme...but your reply sure implies that I did. Sorry, but that drips with ignorance. It's like I said about liberals earlier: act horribly offended first, ask questions later.
I never said the Islamic faith wants to kill us, but if you really want to know, I'll tell you exactly why the Islamic faith is so intolerant...if you promise not to jump to anymore wild conclusions. :)
Originally posted by TWTCommish
We don't follow Muhammad...but they do...obviously they don't pay attention to him either. Wonder why everyone hates us so much? I really hope that's a joke. They hate us because of their religion: if you want, I can tell you a few things about the Muslim faith that may surprise you...it is NOT a tolerant faith at all. They will hate us no matter what.
They hated us before this attack also, I might add: so, what is it that we've done to them that's so terrible before the 11th? This attack was justified, bottom line...at least we give warning, and give them a chance to change...they sneak up on us in the morning and attack nothing but civilians. They deserve more punishment than we can give them.
[/B]
It's all right here. "They" hate us because of their religion. "They" follow Muhammad. "They" will hate us no matter what. I don't know if that's intentional or not, but you sure as hell give off the vibe that you're talking about Muslims.
Tell me how it's not a tolerant faith. I'm not retracting anything I said until I hear your defense. Did you read my post?
Yes, I did read your post. And what's with this dislike of the word "they"? It's perfectly suitable..."they" means a group of people I am not a part of...so what's the deal? And yes, I'm talking about Muslims. Why is it bad to say that Muslims follow Mohammad? It's equivalent to saying "I know about Christians...they follow Jesus." Yet I doubt you'd put up a fuss about that. Fess up: we talked about the use of "they" in another thread, but you never replied to my reply there. If you've got a problem, have it out, because I think you're looking for problems that are *not* there.
Oh, by the way: regardless of my defense, you ought to retract what you said, because my post alone earlier says it all: I did not say all Muslims were extreme...I am saying, however, that their religion is intolerant by it's very rules/standards. You, however, took the typical liberal approach and assumed that I was accusing all Muslims of being hateful terrorists, even though I said no such thing.
Now, here's what their religion says: it says that anyone who does not agree with their religion has no basic right to life. NONE. It says, however, that it's acceptable to keep them alive if it somehow benefits their religion, IE: paying money to them. If the person believes in no God, apparently death is the preferable sentence...if they believe in some God, a good God, but not theirs (Jesus is an example), they can keep you alive to pay them money.
Now, if that's not intolerant, nothing is. Christianty has faulty followers (as does Islam, as you can plainly see), but the FUNDAMENTAL difference is that Christianity does not advocate the killing of atheists.
Oh, and did I mention that they still chop off hands for theft over there? IMO, there's nothing wrong with opposing Afghanistan. They are completely barbaric and are adding to the suffering in this world. I hope they do not last...it's origins, even, are questionable!
Oh, and another blow against Afghanistan's reputation: they, along with (I'm pretty sure) the Muslim religion, decided awhile back that they want no changes...they've declared their morals and standards as perfect, basically, and will not change them. They are in a freeze. They refuse to compromise in light of any new evidence or anything of the sort. They'ev decided that their culture and ways of life are the way it ought to be...not open for negotiation.
Now, do you want to defend all these things?
Yo yo Steverino. C'mon dude, second time you've given me crap for using "they," and I wanna know why. :)
Arthur Dent
10-21-01, 01:28 AM
In one post, you say ALL Muslims (by way of their religion) hate us. But when you go on the defensive, you say you didn't mean that ALL Muslims were that extreme. So did you mean not all Muslims are REAL Muslims, or that your original statement was false? They can't both be true, so tell us what you really think, TWT.
Originally posted by Arthur Dent
In one post, you say ALL Muslims (by way of their religion) hate us. But when you go on the defensive, you say you didn't mean that ALL Muslims were that extreme. So did you mean not all Muslims are REAL Muslims, or that your original statement was false? They can't both be true, so tell us what you really think, TWT.
There is no contradiction here: saying that the Islamic religion is intolerant of us is not the same as saying that they are all extreme terrorists. Steve, for some reason I am unaware of, assumed that I meant that all Muslims were as extreme as those who flew into the WTC. Or, at the very least, he assumed that I was saying that they all hated us.
Simple timeline:
1) I say that the Muslim faith is, by definition, an intolerant faith, and that Muslims (true Muslims, of course, meaning those who actually adhere to their religion, obviously, not just people calling them Muslims) are raised to be that way by their faith.
2) Steve goes off on some tangent, assuming that I'm likening all Muslims to the pyschos that have caused so many people so much pain.
3) I tell him that that's not what I said.
I hope that clears things up. My original statement was by no means false: the Islamic religion is intolerant. My exact words:
We don't follow Muhammad...but they do...obviously they don't pay attention to him either. Wonder why everyone hates us so much? I really hope that's a joke. They hate us because of their religion: if you want, I can tell you a few things about the Muslim faith that may surprise you...it is NOT a tolerant faith at all. They will hate us no matter what.
Steve's own words:
Stop for a minute and think about what you're saying: "They." How dare you make such a generalization about an entire group of people??? That comment, Chris, is positively dripping with ignorance. How many Muslims are there in the world, and how many of them are extremists? It seems to me like you're not making the distinction between the two. Not all Muslims want to kill Americans... So let's hear those few things. I want to know how the Islamic faith is so intolerant. What makes "them" want to kill "us." Aren't you overlooking the fact that there are extreme factions within EVERY religion?
As you can see, from reading what Steve said, he makes the assumption that "they will hate us" means "they want to kill us." He also says some more stuff about the use of the word "they" (which still doesn't seem to make any sense, sorry to say). He even says that I shouldn't make a generalization about an entire group of people, when actually, what I said was equivalent to Steve saying "Christians, by definition, follow Christ and denounce sin."
I'm sorry, I won't answer to this issue anymore. You are saying things about a religion that you view as fact, but in reality are just false justifications for what America is doing. I have friends who are Muslims, and I think they would be surprised to hear that all of their friends and family members who don't follow Islam are going to hell. Like I said, you're talking about extremists only. Puritans interpreted the bible much in the same way modern Arabic terrorists interpret the Koran.
But like I said, I'm done with this argument. Your mind is made up, and you don't see anything wrong with what you're saying because you view it as fact.
It is fact. Have you read parts of the Qoran, Steve? Have you done any reasearch into the Islamic faith? Let me make it perfectly clear...the text below is FACT:
The Islamic religion says that those who are polytheists (IE: believe in one God...so atheists are included), or who do not believe in a singular God, have no right to life, and those who are not Mulsim should be fined, in short.
Now, tell me where I'm wrong. Go ahead. Now, maybe your friends don't agree with that, but that is what the Muslim religion teaches. It's just that simple. If they don't follow it, then they are not Muslim. If I don't follow Jesus, I'm not Christian. I am not talking about extremists, I'm talking about what their religion teaches, and how many of them are raised. I'm glad that some of them do not believe that...but it IS what the religion teaches, BOTTOM LINE.
I said Muslims are intolerant...you said I'm generalizing, and then I told you what you have to believe in to be a Muslim (which as an intolerant thing). So where's the problem? Where's the logic in your disagreement? I'm not saying your Muslim frineds want me fined, or Peter killed...but that's what their religion teaches...and if they don't follow it, they are not Muslims, but rather, some modified version of it.
Don't wanna argue? Fine by me...but your last post was blatantly false in many ways. And I would still really like to know why you make such a fuss over "they." Sounds like more liberal stuff designed to try to make it look like someone's being discriminatory. The first time you said it, I said to myself "Whoa, I didn't realize I did that." Then, I looked at what I said, and thought to myself "Wait a second, that word was completely appropriate. He's just pulling the 'act offended first' routine."
Sorry man, but you argue with me, and then you back out, saying a bunch of very, very false things on the way out, and leaving questions unanswered? I can't respect that.
sadesdrk
10-21-01, 01:02 PM
You are right TWT...just find out what's going on in Africa.The muslims are persecuting christians to the extentent of irraticating whole villages.The muslim army even goes as far as to capture christian children and if they don't honor the Koran,they send them to the front lines of the mulim army to slaughter their own people.Don't take my word for it...look it up on the internet.
Originally posted by TWTCommish
It is fact. Have you read parts of the Qoran, Steve? Have you done any reasearch into the Islamic faith? Let me make it perfectly clear...the text below is FACT:
The Islamic religion says that those who are polytheists (IE: believe in one God...so atheists are included), or who do not believe in a singular God, have no right to life, and those who are not Mulsim should be fined, in short.
Now, tell me where I'm wrong. Go ahead. Now, maybe your friends don't agree with that, but that is what the Muslim religion teaches. It's just that simple. If they don't follow it, then they are not Muslim. If I don't follow Jesus, I'm not Christian. I am not talking about extremists, I'm talking about what their religion teaches, and how many of them are raised. I'm glad that some of them do not believe that...but it IS what the religion teaches, BOTTOM LINE.
If you were a serious student of Islam you would have investigated and found the true Islam. The only two authentic sources which bind every Muslim are
1. the Quran and
2. authentic or sound Hadith. Any teachings under the label of "Islam" which contradicts the direct understanding of fundamental beliefs and practices of Islam should be considered a Pseudo-Islamic Cult.
It appears you are quoting from the teachings of a pseudo Islamic cult that cosely resembles Farrakhan's NATION OF ISLAM. Whoever is following the Quran you are quoting--are not true Muslims.
Islam and the so called "Nation of Islam'" are two different religions. The latter is more of a political organization since its members are not limited to a single faith. Muslims consider this group to be just one of many cults using the name of Islam for their own gain. The only thing common between them is the jargon, the language used
by both. "The Nation of Islam" is a misnomer.
Islam and the cult of NOI differ in many fundamental ways. For example, its followers believe in racism and that the 'black man' was the original man and therefore superior, while in Islam there is no racism and everyone is considered equal in the sight of God, the only
difference being in one's piety. There are many other theological examples that show the 'Nation's teachings have little to do with true Islam. There are many groups in America who claim to represent Islam and call their adherents Muslims.
Originally posted by TWTCommish
I said Muslims are intolerant...you said I'm generalizing, and then I told you what you have to believe in to be a Muslim (which as an intolerant thing). So where's the problem? Where's the logic in your disagreement? I'm not saying your Muslim frineds want me fined, or Peter killed...but that's what their religion teaches...and if they don't follow it, they are not Muslims, but rather, some modified version of it.
Freedom of religion is laid down in the Quran itself: "There is no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam). The right direction is distinctly clear from error". (2:256) Christian missionary, T.W. Arnold had this opinion on his study of the question of the spread of Islam: ".. of any organized attempt to force the acceptance of Islam on the non-Muslim population, or of any
systematic persecution intended to stamp out the Christian religion,we hear nothing. Had the caliphs chosen to adopt either course of action, they might have swept away Christianity as easily as Ferdinand and Isabella drove Islam out of Spain, or Louis XIV made Protestanism ..."
It is a function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world.
History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city. Proclaiming to the
inhabitants that their lives, and property were safe, and that their places of worship would never be taken from them, he asked the Christian patriarch Sophronius to accompany him on a visit to all the holy places. Islamic law also permits non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the
minorities themselves. The life and property of all citizens in an Islamic state are considered sacred whether the person is Muslim or not.
The Quran speaks only of human equality and how all peoples are equal in the sight of God. "O mankind! We
created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All- Aware. (49:13)
Just my 2 cents-----
PigsnieLite
10-21-01, 04:46 PM
When I grow up I want to be just like Wart. And when I turn 16, I want to be just like Steve. heehee. :p Oh hi, Sadesdrk.
PLite: if you want to partake in this discussion, go ahead, but we're not looking for yes-men here. It's not contributing anything to the conversation.
My source is not that of a cult, Wart, but rather, Joseph Kickasola, a scholar of Islam. My father was fortunate enough to conduct a lengthy interview with him, which is available on the web (streaming audio), if you'd like to hear it. Just say the word. :) Examples of Muslim tolerance are not the point here. I am not claiming that they all believe that Christians should be fine, or that atheists shoud be killed...or that we have no right to life, but that is the teaching.
Perhaps there is a contradiction in teaching? Anyway, my simple point was that people can go on about how Muslims are actually peaceful people...but I don't know that they are. Yes, the terrorists misrepresent them, the same way Jerry Falwell misrepresents me, but from what I understand of the Muslim faith, it is a matter of degree, rather than of misunderstanding, if you see what I mean.
Originally posted by TWTCommish
The Islamic religion says that those who are polytheists (IE: believe in one God...so atheists are included), or who do not believe in a singular God, have no right to life, and those who are not Mulsim should be fined, in short.
Now, tell me where I'm wrong. Go ahead.
Your wrong. Flat out wrong, maybe you got false information, or typed it wrong, but the above is just flat out wrong. Polytheism is the belief in more than one god. Poly means many, Chris. MONOtheists believe in one god, not polytheists. So yes you are wrong.
I really wish I had looked at this earlier and posted about it, because you really did make gross generalizations. First you made generalizations about Muslims, then you made a generalization about Steve and liberals.
"Oh, and did I mention that they still chop off hands for theft over there? IMO, there's nothing wrong with opposing Afghanistan. They are completely barbaric and are adding to the suffering in this world. I hope they do not last...it's origins, even, are questionable!"
Damn Chris. Damn. How can you say that?? How can you actually say that with out having any sort of regret? Just because Afghanistan is a developing Nation does not, DOES NOT, mean it is barbaric. It is not barbaric at all. Not in the least. You are suffering from extreme ethnocentrism Chris. HOW THE **** DOES IT ADD SUFFERING IN THIS WORLD?!?! :furious:
Chopping off a hand is no more barbaric than the death penalty. Chopping off a hand is no more barbaric than dying from third degree burns from an incindary bomb that was dropped on your house. Copping off a hand is no more barbaric than anything this country does to its criminals.
You are saying "they" are wrong for their beliefs. That is all you are doing. All "they" are doing is saying you are wrong for your beliefs. Does that make either party right? no it doesn't. But it also doesn't make either party any less wrong.
"Oh, and another blow against Afghanistan's reputation: they, along with (I'm pretty sure) the Muslim religion, decided awhile back that they want no changes...they've declared their morals and standards as perfect, basically, and will not change them. They are in a freeze. They refuse to compromise in light of any new evidence or anything of the sort. They'ev decided that their culture and ways of life are the way it ought to be...not open for negotiation."
You have just done the exact same thing, so this comment hold no relavance.
Chris man, I think none the less of you for saying that, but please, please, please try and think about what your saying. I'm too mad to post about this right now. I'll post back later.
I said Polytheists and Atheists have no right to life. Poly = many. I went back to edit the part in parens by I had to go to Church (how ironic). Yes, I know what Polytheism is. And besides, you know very well what I meant: aside from my typo, I was asking Steve why he thinks I was making a generalization.
I really wish I had looked at this earlier and posted about it, because you really did make gross generalizations. First you made generalizations about Muslims, then you made a generalization about Steve and liberals.
Where were you when Steve told me conservatives were idealistic? :) It's not a generalization if it's true. If you say "Irish people come from Ireland," you'd be right. And if I find that the Muslim religion, by defintion, teaches intolerance, than I am correct in saything that it is an intolerant religion. So where's the generalization?
Damn Chris. Damn. How can you say that?? How can you actually say that with out having any sort of regret? Just because Afghanistan is a developing Nation does not, DOES NOT, mean it is barbaric. It is not barbaric at all. Not in the least. You are suffering from extreme ethnocentrism Chris. HOW THE **** DOES IT ADD SUFFERING IN THIS WORLD?!?!
Uh, wha? You're telling me chopping off a hand for stealing bread is not barbaric? Barbaric things happen over there. They have little freedom. It's horrible...things like that make this world worse, and as such, in this case, I have NO problem with us trying to stop it.
Chopping off a hand is no more barbaric than the death penalty. Chopping off a hand is no more barbaric than dying from third degree burns from an incindary bomb that was dropped on your house. Copping off a hand is no more barbaric than anything this country does to its criminals.
Big friggin' difference: we sentence murderers to death. We do not bomb or electocute people for stealing or talking bad about the government. Afghanistan is hell, my friend...I am *SO* pleased to say that I do not live there, and I am *VERY* upset that some people are stuck there.
You are saying "they" are wrong for their beliefs. That is all you are doing. All "they" are doing is saying you are wrong for your beliefs. Does that make either party right? no it doesn't. But it also doesn't make either party any less wrong.
There you go with the "they" thing now. There's nothign wrong with the word "they" man. So just let it go. :) Beliefs? Yeah, Peter, technically these are just beliefs. I hold the belief that killing people who speak out against the Taliban and having a disregard for the value of their own people's lives is a bad thing. You can go on and on about how that is my opinion, but I don't care. I could just as well tell you that rape is okay...it's just your BELIEF that it's wrong, but such stances are ridiculous.
You have just done the exact same thing, so this comment hold no relavance.
No no no no no. :) I stated my beliefs, and I'm firm in them. This is not a leader declaring that no more progress should be made.
This is different, because I've never said that I can't improve, the way that society has. I WILL improve...I expect to. If I don't, then I've messed up. Fundamental difference. The comment holds plenty of relevance: it shows you that they refuse to advance because they are convinced they have it all figured out. Obviously I would never pretend to have it all figured out.
I think you should think about this, too, Peter. That is another world over there...and, unfortunately, many of the people in power there are evil. They do evil things. They do BARBARIC things. If you want to get technical, let's ALWAYS remind each other that EVERYTHING we believe is just a belief, alright?
Islam is not properly represented by the terrorists. I completely agree with that. I do not agree, however, with people who try to say that not only are they not properly represented by them, but all Muslims are nice and happy and love us. I don't know that that's true. From what I understand, there are some fundamental things in their religion which clash with basic freedom. Steve doesn't seem to care, though...he'll make his speech about stereotypes, even though I doubt he has much interest in hearing my response, and I don't think, for even a half of a second, that Steve would argue with someone who made a stereotypical remark about Christians.
Steve, I truly believe, is looking at the world through racially-tinted glasses. Always keeping an eye out for something that could possibly, maybe, potentially be some slight of some minority, even if it's 100% true. Like I said before: be offended first, ask questions later (or not at all, unfortunately). The rant about "they" makes no sense. I've asked him before to clarify his problem with that, and he has not. I've asked him before if I should use "we" instead even though it makes no sense, and he hasn't answered.
The stereotyping concerning liberals is nothing more serious than what we do everyday. We say "Liberals want larger government" -- well, technically, not every single liberal does...but a lot do, and it's the basic belief among them. Would you get all upset if someone had said "Conservatives want lower taxes"? Most likely not...even though it's the same type of generalization. Hey, IMO, some liberals tend to make the same kinds of arguments...you may disagree.
So be it...but please do not act as if I'm doing some horrible thing here, because I don't think you, Steve, and whoever else would act quite so upset if this happened on the flip side...which is just as bad.
PigsnieLite
10-21-01, 06:13 PM
You make me laugh TWT. On the one hand you make fun of me when I cite a Gulf War book written by Ramsey Clark (a famous American atturney general) & then it turns out that your source of all thingies Islam is some dude named Kickasola whos not even Moslem. Teehee. :p
PLite, the Yes-Boy!
sadesdrk
10-21-01, 06:38 PM
Check out the monstrosities going on in Sudan.Then we can talk on a level playing field.
*Hi pigsnieLite...it's good to see you again:D
Wart isn't Muslim either, is he? And yet that's okay? :) And no, I don't believe I made fun of you for it. In fact, I remember that, and I didn't. What I did say, though, is that if I quoted something bad about Clinton from one of his aides, I'd bet you wouldn't believe THAT. Please stop making these things up about me, alright? Oh, by the way: I believe that scholar is from the middle east. I don't know if he was ever a member of the Islamic faith, but it doesn't matter, because you don't have to be to learn about their religion.
I never saw Steves conservative comment so I can't say anything about that. And yes if it is true, then it isn't a generalization its a fact. But saying that Steve is a typical liberal is a generalization. BUT saying:
"And if I find that the Muslim religion, by defintion, teaches intolerance, than I am correct in saything that it is an intolerant religion. So where's the generalization?"
...is a generalization. As you previously stated its not a generalization if it is true. But that isn't true. You even said "if I find", which means its an opinion which means it isn't a fact which would make it a generalization.
"Oh, and did I mention that they still chop off hands for theft over there? IMO, there's nothing wrong with opposing Afghanistan. They are completely barbaric and are adding to the suffering in this world. I hope they do not last...it's origins, even, are questionable!"
Your saying "I hope they do not last". So your wishing the death of an entire culture because they are different. Shame on you Chris.
"Uh, wha? You're telling me chopping off a hand for stealing bread is not barbaric? Barbaric things happen over there. They have little freedom. It's horrible...things like that make this world worse, and as such, in this case, I have NO problem with us trying to stop it."
It's only barbaric to us, and we aren't the final word on anything. As I said before just because we see it one way doesn't mean it is that way. Afghanistan seems to see it as a justifiable punishment, yet the US does not, which one is right?? You can not say because its opinion.
"Afghanistan is hell, my friend...I am *SO* pleased to say that I do not live there, and I am *VERY* upset that some people are stuck there."
No, Afghanistan is hell to you. To them, its just a life before they reach heaven. Muslims leaving in Afghanistan do not live a material life because the less material possecisons you have in life, the more you will have in the After life. To a Muslim, the worse you are treated in life the better you are treated in the after life, which is why most Muslims do not complain against the Taliban, which is why the let it be. There are some sects that oppose it, but they are different kinds of Muslims. That opposition is also a different sect than that of the "terrorists"(I put it in quoatations because its not fact they were Muslim), which is why you need to be more specific when you say "they". Please distinguish between the Taliban gov, the terrorists, the rebels, the religious fanatics, and the everyday people. None of them are the same.
"This is different, because I've never said that I can't improve, the way that society has. I WILL improve...I expect to. If I don't, then I've messed up. Fundamental difference. The comment holds plenty of relevance: it shows you that they refuse to advance because they are convinced they have it all figured out. Obviously I would never pretend to have it all figured out."
When did "they ever" say "they" won't improve?? When? Pull a quote if you have to. Because they already have improved by this, Afghanistan now has proff of how they view the U.S. treats them, and now have more reason to dislike us, which is an improvement to "them". What that statement just ment was they aren't going to change their beliefs and start admiting that their beliefs are wrong just as you won't start praising Allah. They won't change, neither will you, nor anyone else.
My main concern with what you are saying is that you really need to start distinguishing between the groups your talking about, because never once should they be referred to as a whole.
I never saw Steves conservative comment so I can't say anything about that. And yes if it is true, then it isn't a generalization its a fact. But saying that Steve is a typical liberal is a generalization.
I believe I said that what he was doing was a typical liberal thing. See, that's the problem here: half of what I say gets heard, the rest is missed, and I spend as much time correcting false claims against me as I do actually discussing the subject at hand. It's a real waste...of all our time.
...is a generalization. As you previously stated its not a generalization if it is true. But that isn't true. You even said "if I find", which means its an opinion which means it isn't a fact which would make it a generalization.
C'mon. When I said "if I find," it was in a very broad way...so as to cover other instances of things similar to this. It is true, and therefore it is not a generalization. It was never based just on the way I felt, but rather, what I've learned. Therefore there is no generalization.
Your saying "I hope they do not last". So your wishing the death of an entire culture because they are different. Shame on you Chris.
Incorrect...you are making the assumption that that means death, when all it means is that I hope that country and it's ideals do not last.
It's only barbaric to us, and we aren't the final word on anything. As I said before just because we see it one way doesn't mean it is that way. Afghanistan seems to see it as a justifiable punishment, yet the US does not, which one is right?? You can not say because its opinion.
I didn't say we were the final word on everything...but when most of the world considers to be barbaric, something must be done. As I've said, you need not remind me that it's my opinion: I KNOW. I'm not a moron. :) However, there is a point at which, yes, we need to do something about such things. Hitler's opinion was that killing the Jews would be a good thing...should we have let that happen, simply because it was only our opinion that it was bad? Exactly what does it take for us to step in and force "our opinion" of what is cruel and horrible on others like that?
No, Afghanistan is hell to you. To them, its just a life before they reach heaven. Muslims leaving in Afghanistan do not live a material life because the less material possecisons you have in life, the more you will have in the After life. To a Muslim, the worse you are treated in life the better you are treated in the after life, which is why most Muslims do not complain against the Taliban, which is why the let it be. There are some sects that oppose it, but they are different kinds of Muslims. That opposition is also a different sect than that of the "terrorists"(I put it in quoatations because its not fact they were Muslim), which is why you need to be more specific when you say "they". Please distinguish between the Taliban gov, the terrorists, the rebels, the religious fanatics, and the everyday people. None of them are the same.
I have not failed to distinguish between them, as far as I know...but, again, Steve and yourself seem to imply that I have. Perhaps I haven't gone way out of my way to make it 100%, absolutely, unequivocally, totally, completely, utterly clear that I realize they are apart from one another...which I don't find to be a fault. I get it, alright? There was never a time when I did not get it. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever even hinted that they were all the same basic people. Nor will I. Okay? :) It's like the "it's your opinion thing": Yes, yes, I get it. You don't need to say it. I've known that since before this all began.
Hell to me? I don't think you really know what they think about their land over there. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a person who's perfectly alright with the fact that they live in a land without freedom.
When did "they ever" say "they" won't improve?? When? Pull a quote if you have to. Because they already have improved by this, Afghanistan now has proff of how they view the U.S. treats them, and now have more reason to dislike us, which is an improvement to "them". What that statement just ment was they aren't going to change their beliefs and start admiting that their beliefs are wrong just as you won't start praising Allah. They won't change, neither will you, nor anyone else.
Wrong. Several problems with the above
1) The Islamic scholar has discussed this. Want a link? Oh, wait, let me guess: you don't buy what he says, eh?
2) They have not improved at all. I have no idea how you're saying they have some kind of newfound proof. It's this simple: they're not going to change the way they handle the law, or their religion, or their political system, because they are convinced it is the best, and need not be changed. How on earth can you even come close to defending that? You ask me for a quote, which implies that you haven't heard of this policy...and then you tell me what they really meant? Doesn't sound right to me.
3) If I remember correctly, Allah refers to the same God I worship. I think it even means "Almighty God," "Almighty," or something like that, but I could be wrong. Anyway, it's not just about religion. It's not at all correct to say that it's all the same because you'll likely never worship Jesus, and I'll likely never follow their faith, and they'll never follow mine. They've simply decided that they are DONE progressing. Justice is the best it can be. Their system of government is the best it can be. No need for change. That isn't anywhere near what I live by...nor what you live by.
My main concern with what you are saying is that you really need to start distinguishing between the groups your talking about, because never once should they be referred to as a whole.
Have I done this? If you want to ask me for quotes, I have to do the same of you. And, for the 10 gajillionth time, I wanna know what the deal is with the word "they." It's getting really ridiculous. I don't know if this is some kind of joke, or what, but it's not funny to me at all.
SamsoniteDelilah
09-11-06, 01:10 AM
A year or so ago I found this thread an thought it was pretty interesting as a time capsule. I'm adding my 2 cents on what I remember of the day.
My clock radio went off at 6:00am and I heard Danny Bonaduce sounding absolutely serious and shaken, saying, "this is the worst thing I've ever seen." I fought to wake up, wondering what he was talking about. "Tragedy", "devastation", "plane hit such a huge building..." I was sifting through the words listening for the "where" and they said "a second plane has hit the World Trade Center". My immediate thought was of Kathleen, my friend in Manhattan. I was out of bed, into the living room and turned on the tv to see the footage of the second plane hitting. They were saying it was terrorism... speculating about the number of dead and injured. I sat glued to the tv until they announced the Pentagon hit. My friend (since age 17) Paul is a White House lawyer and I got really scared that he was there. A little while later, they said the White House was being evacuated, admid phrases like " country under attack", "at war" and speculation that these were just the first of many attacks that we could expect across the nation that day.
I was really scared and worried about my friends, but I kept it together until I got a call from my mom. Hearing her frayed nerves in her shaky voice and knowing she was alone for this (Dad had died 5 months earlier) was really upsetting. I called work and canceled the marketing we had planned for that morning. I went in and spent much of the morning watching the big-screen tv in the activities room and crying. We had an emergency meeting to discuss how to keep patients and staff as safe as possible, should there be a loss of power at the nursing home.
I remember ordering middle eastern food that day at lunch, and wondering how much backlash the local transplants could expect.
When I got home that evening, I had email from Paul. He said he had walked out of the White House, seen the Pentagon in flames and took off for home. It took him hours, as he stopped in electronics stores to get updates on what was going on, and he had to walk the whole way. His email asked that someone get a message to his mom in Ohio that he was ok and for his lover to please call him.
It was 5 days before I found out that Kathleen was ok. She had been in Ohio at the time of the attack. By the time I learned this, I had more or less given her up for dead, and called her mom to find out for sure what had happened. Kath answered the phone.
Another friend was in one of the towers, but went out for a smoke before their meeting and it saved his life. He moved to the woods of "New Hampster" and hasn't worked in the city since.
The most important change in my life is that I learned that life can end at any moment, and to make sure that those I love know I love them.
spudracer
09-11-06, 08:13 AM
Well, if you read through the posts, you know what I was doing. I was actually teaching a class, so when I first saw the posts on this, I didn't know what to make of it. Terribly tragic, and I don't know what I was thinking comparing this attack to Pearl Harbor.
VeronicaJ
09-12-06, 07:43 AM
I was 11 when it happend. My best friend Nick and I got outta school and were just about to go downstairs to play games on the computer when my mum and brother said we had to take a look at the TV 'New Yorks under attack'. As stupid as i was back then i though they were watching a movie and we went down. Later that day i found out it wasn't a movie, it was real. I felt really horrible for all those people who found death that day.
In the years between now and then i started to realize how big it was. It wasn't just a planecrash, it was the start of a war, the war started with the death of thousands of people who had nothin to do with it.
An event like this kinda clips your wings of, we can all die. And it opened the door to a whole new world, the grown up world, filled with terrorism, evil men and lies. It opened my eyes.
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