View Full Version : Multiple Bombings: World Trade Center/Pentagon
You heard right:
http://us.news1.yimg.com/p14.news.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010911/ts/crash_tradecenter_dc.html
First plane hit one, 18 minutes later, a second hit the one next to it. Then the Pentagon was hit...smoke coming out. Then one of the World Trade Center towers COLLAPSED. Now The Sears Tower and The White House are being evacuated...I think it's a precaution. This is horrible. Please pray for these people, and this country, because the coming weeks won't be pretty, IMO.
spudracer
09-11-01, 11:19 AM
That sucks. The Trade Center has been hit how many times now?? Its sad that had to happen, and hopefully the only person seriously hurt was the pilot. That's too bad, and where's the story about the pentagon? What a bad way to start the day.
PigsnieLite
09-11-01, 11:20 AM
HEY whats goin on over there? Bombings bombings, its like world war 3!!! Okay, goin back to the TV now & now like a plane in Bostons been hijacked! Later! And I hope all of you guys are ok!
PLite
PS. Pigsnie just left the house, they better not send him over there or I shall cry! :(
The Pentagon stuff is on the TV mostly, but here's the Pentagon's WebCam:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/webcams/eyeondc.htm
It's horrible. Bizarre. I hope nothing else is hit. Believe me: this won't stand.
spudracer
09-11-01, 11:49 AM
Im watching NBC about it..they showed the explosions.. This is terrible.
PigsnieLite
09-11-01, 11:53 AM
Hello hello, news all jumbled. Im not sure what to believe here.Is the pentagon colapsed? Is there a hijack plane over the US someplace? Whats happened to DC? BBC reportin all sorts of things, some are just weird.
spudracer
09-11-01, 11:58 AM
pentagon isn't collapsed...twin towers are though. they both collapsed.
spudracer
09-11-01, 12:10 PM
All airports in US closed til Wednesday. All State offices closed. If you have family there call Red Cross for information.
this is all making me upset .....we are under under decleration of war. :furious: here's hoping for nothing else.
BrodieMan
09-11-01, 12:30 PM
i live about 60 miles from somerset, pa where a plane crashed and it's been attributed to terrorist activity. that's really close to home. i pray for people in urban cities, especially those on the west coast. oh, please let this end.....
spudracer
09-11-01, 12:32 PM
Exactly, how many planes were hijacked. Have all of them been crashed or are there still some missing? This is unreal.
PigsnieLite
09-11-01, 12:56 PM
Hummm, makes you wonder what kind of security you have at your airports! Planes crashin right & left. How many people are in the planes???? Its weird but Im actually scared. And I dont even live there!
Ok, here's what has been basically confirmed:
A plane hit one of the WTC towers. 20 minutes later (roughly), a second plane hit the other one. Shortly after that, they both collapsed...some people think there were bombs at the base of the building (placed in advance) set to go off in case the planes didn't do the trick.
There were two explosions at the Pentagon, but the second may have stemmed from the first, or something. I dunno really. A section of the Pentagon has collapsed.
A Boeing 767 has crashed 80 miles from where I live (right by Pittsburgh). I don't think it hit anything important, so to speak, so it may have been a hijacking gone wrong.
There were some rumours about several missing plans, and others flying to DC, but I don't know if those are valid or not. I also heard that one plane crashed near or on Camp David, but I think that's been taken back now. It's still a huge mess.
This won't go unanswered. I only hope that we can handle things well, and not cause any more violence than is necessary to move forward. This is Pearl Harbor for our generation, people. This is probably the worst act of terrorism any of us will ever see in our lifetimes.
spudracer
09-11-01, 01:35 PM
Worst in our lifetime?? Doubt it...i'm sure this is only beginning when it comes to this sort of thing. Retalliation is at hand...at least you would think.
I dunno...it's already the worst in US history.
spudracer
09-11-01, 02:32 PM
Actually, I would think that Pearl Harbor was the worst, but death wise, yes this would be the worst. Has anyone seen the footage of the people in wherever its at celebrating all of this. I mean thats just sad. I think that if I was in charge I would declare war. Not full scale war, but this is something that needs to be addressed right away. Don't wait a week, a day, another hour. A stand needs to be taken when it comes to attacks like this.
ryanpaige
09-11-01, 02:44 PM
I suspect the death toll from today will exceed the 2400 who died at Pearl. We past 10% of that in the planes alone, and 50,000 people work in those towers in any given day.
Originally posted by spdrcr
Actually, I would think that Pearl Harbor was the worst, but death wise, yes this would be the worst. Has anyone seen the footage of the people in wherever its at celebrating all of this. I mean thats just sad. I think that if I was in charge I would declare war. Not full scale war, but this is something that needs to be addressed right away. Don't wait a week, a day, another hour. A stand needs to be taken when it comes to attacks like this.
Yes, the celebration is sickening. Absolutely sickening. If Fidel-freaking-Castro were killed tommorrow, I wouldn't celebrate. I wouldn't cheer. I would be happy, because I know it would mean a chance at a better life for the people of Cuba, but I can't imagine going beyond cracking a smile...but CHEERING? At someone's death? That's not right.
I don't see how Pearl Harbor could be the worst...at least it was a military base that was attacked there. This one involves several places, and 4 commercial flights, likely all full of civilians. We're looking at 50,000 people in the WTC...not counting the passangers, those at the Pentagon, or some of the other rumored attacks.
I hope this is the worst I ever see. I fear that it won't be, though, if this sparks a war. I wouldn't want to be Bush right now...decisions like this are not easy.
PigsnieLite
09-11-01, 03:04 PM
Well this is very depressin. And I dont know how US would retaliate if its terrorists who did this. How do you bomb terrorists? Do you bomb their whole country becuz thats where they live? The BBC says you are thinkin of bombin Afghanistan. Isnt Afghan mostly desert? how will you find anyone in there?
spudracer
09-11-01, 03:07 PM
True, its sad to see that one of the United States landmarks(actually two of the US's landmarks) will no longer be there to touch the sky. It's also sad that the number of people who had to die because someone didnt like us. All the civilians in the planes, that went down, not to mention any civilians ouside of the buildings that got hit by debri, a lot of innocent people basically.
I am absolutely shocked. This is an act of war - I don't envy the president's position right now. I watched both towers collapse live; it makes me sick. I heard a rumor that we've declared war, but on whom? What really sickens me is that innocent lives were completely disregarded.
spudracer
09-11-01, 04:04 PM
Yup, and theres singing and dancing in Afaganhastan..
which is really sick. Of course, the tv is letting people know where Bush is going...which is very stupid,
spudracer
09-11-01, 04:19 PM
Anyone know where exactly in the Pentagon it was hit?? Were they wanting to take the whole place out or just hit a section where there was important stuff at?
I read that it was a fairly isolated area of it...I don't think ther was any chance of brining the entire Pentagon down. It's just too low to the ground, and too spread out...those towers, on the other hand, are ideal to take down. It's like a Jenga tower.
spudracer
09-11-01, 04:28 PM
Yes, I'm surprised they haven't hit the Empire State Building. I mean that's just as much of a landmark as the Trade Center.
sadesdrk
09-11-01, 04:35 PM
Went to my college this morning and classes were either sittin' around watching the news or cancelled,we were all wondering the same things...with airport security the way it is...how did this happen and were some americans privy to the knowledge of this before hand...anti-american goverment supporters aren't just livin'in other countries.obviously,this was well thought out and executed with prescision...no american piolet would fly into the World Trade Center,even with a gun to his head...these terroists found individuals who knew how to fly and suicidely...amazing.If this is worse than Pearl Harbor and that spawned war...what is the outcome going to be in this case?
Originally posted by spdrcr
Yes, I'm surprised they haven't hit the Empire State Building. I mean that's just as much of a landmark as the Trade Center.
I think they took out the Trade Center and Pentagon because they represent American business/capitalism, and the American military. The WTC is a symbol of our economy...which is why it's been attacked in the past.
ryanpaige
09-11-01, 04:53 PM
Empire State Building would be harder to hit, too since it is no longer the tallest building in the area and is not right on the water like the WTC was. The design of the building also would make it less likely to collapse if hit nearer to the top (since Empire State Building gets smaller as it gets higher. The WTC was just a big rectangle).
spudracer
09-11-01, 04:59 PM
Yeah, I reminded of the scenes from Independence Day and Armageddon. I mentioned to someone today that it looked like something out of a movie. It didn't seem like this was actually happening. Too bad it was real, and it was happening. My heart goes to those families.
Unbelievable. As most of you probably know, I live about 30-40 minutes away from the pentagon, and thus many friends of mine parent's work in DC or at the pentagon. I was in math class when a friend of mine got a page from a news source describing the bombings, at the time only my table new what was going on. Soon the school made an announcement of what was known to of happened so far. I headed over to my next class where my teacher ran and grabbed a TV for us to watch. Everything was just so tragic. Many of my friends were in tears because their parents work at the Pentagon. It is just so very tragic.
I happened to be in the same room with my friend Danielle when she found out some horrible information. The Dulles to Las Angeles flight that had been hijacked and crashed into the pentagon, was the same flight her dad was on. I'm not going to go into her reaction, but it was enough to make anyone feel her pain.
Tis a sad day.
Sir Toose
09-11-01, 05:59 PM
Usama Bin Laden must phucking die!!
Looks like Afghanistan was just bombed--by us? :eek: I'm not so sure this was a wise thing to have done since we don't really know who's responsible for these attacks!
Correction: WE don't know. Maybe Bush/the government does.
thmilin
09-11-01, 07:23 PM
ok, so i'm trying to make sense of what you guys have been saying here. i listened to the radio all morning, and being on the west coast we ARE 3 hrs behind. but i deliberately stopped listening by noon cuz i couldn't stand any more.
so since then, apparently, they've got footage of afghanis celebrating the bombing, while their official leader denies they had the resources to do this?
this is the MSN News timeline:
8:42 a.m. ET United Airlines Flight 175, a Boeing 767 bound for Los Angeles with 65 people onboard, slams into the north tower of the World Trade Center
9:21 a.m.ET New York City Port Authority closes all bridges and tunnels in New York City
9:24 a.m. ET Bush calls today’s plane crashes at the World Trade Center "an apparent terrorist attack on our country."
9:32 a.m. ET Stock Exchange closed
9:40 a.m. ET The FAA orders the entire nationwide air traffic system shut down. All flights at U.S. airports are stopped.
9:43 a.m. ET American Airlines Flight 77, a Boeing 757 enroute from Dulles to LAX with 58 passengers and six crew members, crashes into the Pentagon. A portion of one side of the five-sided structure collapses
9:45 a.m.ET The White House is evacuated.
10:05 a.m.ET The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses in a plume of ash and debris.
10:10 a.m. ET United Airlines Flight 93, a Boeing 757 en route from Newark, N.J., to San Francisco with 38 passengers and seven crew members, crashes just north of the Somerset County Airport, about 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. The plane was carrying 38 passengers, two pilots and five flight attendants.
10:24 a.m.ET The FAA reports that all inbound transatlantic flights are to be diverted to Canada
10:28 a.m.ET Two World Trade Center, the north tower, collapses.
11:26 p.m. ET United Airlines expresses concern about the fate of another plane, Flight 175, a Boeing 767 bound from Boston to Los Angeles.
12:15 p.m. E.T. The United States closes its border with Canada and Mexico.
1:02 p.m. ET New York Mayor Rudy Guiliani orders an evacuation of Manhattan south of Canal Street.
1:04 p.m. ET In a speech at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, President Bush announces that security measures are being taken and and says: "Make no mistake, the United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts."
1:44 p.m. ET The Navy dispatches aircraft carriers and guided missile destroyers to New York and Washington. Around the country, fighters, airborne radar and refueling planes scramble. The North American Aerospace Defense Command go to its highest alert.
1:44 p.m. ET President Bush leaves Barksdale Air Force Base for Strategic Air Command in Nebraska.
4:30 p.m. ET President Bush leaves the Strategic Air Command headquarters in Nebraska for Washington.
5:25 p.m. ET Seven World Trade Center, a 47-story tower, collapses from ancillary damage from this morning's attack
1:04 p.m. ET In a speech at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, President Bush announces that security measures are being taken and and says: "Make no mistake, the United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts."
1:44 p.m. ET The Navy dispatches aircraft carriers and guided missile destroyers to New York and Washington. Around the country, fighters, airborne radar and refueling planes scramble. The North American Aerospace Defense Command go to its highest alert.
1:44 p.m. ET President Bush leaves Barksdale Air Force Base for Strategic Air Command in Nebraska.
4:30 p.m. ET President Bush leaves the Strategic Air Command headquarters in Nebraska for Washington.
5:25 p.m. ET Seven World Trade Center, a 47-story tower, collapses from ancillary damage from this morning's attack
There is no explicit evidence - yet - that this is the act of the Taliban ... I hope no bombings have occurred on them ... this is not the time to let revenge make the country blind and irresponsible.
I'm in the bay area and for my side of the country, it's a gorgeous day out, which is ... unsettling. They closed the bridges in San Francisco until they were sure there were no westbound flights. All California federal and state buildings are closed. Since San Francisco is our strategic point, they're keeping an eye on that. They've shut down some schools there, too. A friend of mine there says it's really empty in the city ... a very rare sight.
thmilin
09-11-01, 07:34 PM
oh, and something that bugged me ... if you take a look at that timeline you can see that we were VERY slow to take action. that there is a time gap between incidents and action taken, and the gaps are LARGE! plenty of time for terrorists to get in/out, to evade, complicate, etc.
from what i heard on the radio this morning, when they asked the Chief Sergent or whatever what warning they had of this attack, he said - none whatsoever. we knew nothing until it happened and had no chance to prevent it. unlike Pearl Harbor, where some DID and they chose to ignore it until it was too late.
the plan was rather ingenious - and sickeningly simple. yes, they needed resources, but if you think about it, we provided plenty. here are some easy targets, lax airport security, and all the flying bombs you want. grab one and reroute it at your convenience.
i was going to say, the WTC towers are not just symbols - New York IS our economic center and they ARE centers of trade and blocks away from our stock exchange. not that the NYSE is doing so great lately but still ... come on, a hit on our military defense center!! that is so blatant and indeed, meant to hurt.
i wanted to correct some numbers. from the stats on the news, each tower holds 10,000 people. Each has 5,000 guests. So ... 30,000 would be a more likely number, but the other thing was that they were saying the full number might not have been present that early in the morning, necessarily. Maybe most of the employees, if not all, and maybe not the max # of guests. But then that other WTC bldg did collapse, but I think they had plenty of time to evacuate.
the article i got my timeline from, with more info in it:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/627028_asp.htm
sunfrog
09-11-01, 08:04 PM
Oh my God!!
I think I am in shock. I don't know what to say. I'm glad you guys are all ok. Bombs are going off in Afgahnistan, but the US says it's not us. They are looking for the black boxes from the planes to find out what happened. How can those things survive things like this? I'm not surprised that no one has stepped up to take credit. Whoever did it is gonna get wiped off the face of the Earth!
Just heard, some pasengers called from cell phones and said the hijackers had knives and killed some passengers before the crash.
PigsnieLite
09-11-01, 08:04 PM
HEY, on the telly I just saw a huge fire something in Kabul, Afghan -- is the US already bombing over there? Thats a little too quick, isnt it? I hope YOu guys know what youre doing!!!
We're doing a blood drive at university and there are masses being held at my local church. We even have some firefighters flying to NY. They don't have much experience in urban settings like NYC but every little bit helps.
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
HEY, on the telly I just saw a huge fire something in Kabul, Afghan -- is the US already bombing over there? Thats a little too quick, isnt it? I hope YOu guys know what youre doing!!!
We're not bombing them. Donald Rumsfeld confirmed as much. And yeah, I think the government knows what it's going, for the most part.
These things freak me out, but I'm posting it anyway:
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,
While the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
- Nostradamus
I heard that...though I wonder: what is the fortress?
spudracer
09-11-01, 09:05 PM
We haven't retaliated yet, but Bush is speaking tonight at 8:30 ET...and will address the nation about what has happened today. Bush might actually win the crowd tonight so to speak.
At a time of sorrow the nation isn't torn between color, religion, nationality, political side, we're all one right now. This is a truley sad day for all of us. I don't know of anyone not touched by this outside of Afganisthan.
This is something that won't go away..EVER. I live close to Oklahoma City and when that hit a few years ago the impact around here was drastically changed. No doubt this will change all over America if not in other countries as well.
Flying will be a little more dangerous to me now. This day changed moods faster than a chameleon can change its colors.
Sir Toose
09-11-01, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by thmilin
oh, and something that bugged me ... if you take a look at that timeline you can see that we were VERY slow to take action. that there is a time gap between incidents and action taken, and the gaps are LARGE! plenty of time for terrorists to get in/out, to evade, complicate, etc.
A product of decreased military spending. A product of complacency. I declare jihad of my own! I hope I'm not too old to be drafted if called
Originally posted by TWTCommish
I heard that...though I wonder: what is the fortress?
To answer my own question, it might be The White House. I'd heard that Notradamus quote before, and it is eerie...but apparently people thought the "two brothers" thing referred to a couple of members of the Kennedy family. His predictions are always a bit ambiguous, of course.
I for one, while willing to die for my country and my true, core beliefs, am glad that I am still too young to be drafted. I admit that I am afraid of going to war. If the war lasts for 11+ months, however, I'll become eligible...assuming the minimum is indeed 18.
We don't know if we're going to war. I think that if it WAS Osama Bin Laden, then we'll issue an ultimatum to whatever country is offering refuge. If they don't turn him over to us, they'll get bombed. If we DON'T do this, and bomb this country on principle, then I'll be ashamed to call myself American. I am NOT in favor of complete destruction of another country. Revenge shouldn't be a priority.
I've got an update for anyone that cares. My friend Danielle's dad was supposed to be on that flight, the one that hit the pentagon, but for whatever reason he ended up on the wrong flight and is now safe.
this is pearl harbor of the 21st century.
Originally posted by OG-
I've got an update for anyone that cares. My friend Danielle's dad was supposed to be on that flight, the one that hit the pentagon, but for whatever reason he ended up on the wrong flight and is now safe.
That's amazing. The Lord works in mysterious ways. Thank God. And yes, this is our Pearl Harbor...only worse. Much worse. There is only one day in US history where more Americans have died, and that took place during the civil war, and the deaths were that of SOLDIERS.
jungerpants
09-11-01, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
I for one, while willing to die for my country and my true, core beliefs, am glad that I am still too young to be drafted. I admit that I am afraid of going to war. If the war lasts for 11+ months, however, I'll become eligible...assuming the minimum is indeed 18.
I had to register for the selective service because I recently turned 18. The way the draft works, however, is that it takes 20 year olds and starts off with them-- going up in age (til 26) and then going to 18 and 19. So, hopefully (assuming the draft is not intiated), it'll all work out.
I'm glad to hear it I suppose. War is such a scary thought. I've always feared the draft, but it may become necessary at some point. I can tell my dad is terrified at the thought of losing a child to war. There are 7 kids in all, and 4 of us are male...so it's not a stretch to imagine one of them being drafted at some point.
I'm in awe, though, of how differently I think of certain people now. There are lots of people who's political views I've disagreed with vehemently in the past, who I now find myself agreeing with, and admiring more -- Jason (HyperBaseball) included. I guess it shows you that, in the end, most humans have the basic principles in common. Hopefully good will come of this.
sunfrog
09-11-01, 11:59 PM
Dude, that Nostrodamas thing freaked me out!
The fortress is the Pentagon, the thing looks like a fortress and it was the Dept of Defense the plane crashed into. The leader will sucum means Bush will either die or wimp out in the next few days. :( I don't think you guys have to worry about being drafted. Unless it is WW3 and we fight the entire middle east and the world. I'm too old to be drafted but I'll go for free. Sign me up. Bin Laden has to go, him and all his 25,000 followers. The news keeps showing like 4 different terrorist things he's done to the US. Why is he still around?
mecurdius
09-12-01, 12:05 AM
this makes a lot of people really weird.there was this guy at the supercuts he said, "they're just raising a bunch of terriosts out there, we should shoot all of the women and children in the face."
I think a good carpet bombing would work.
"Personally, I'd like to see three towers built in their place,with the middle one much taller than the other two.That way, it would look like a giant middle finger,directed straight at the fukers who did this."
This may seem out of line, but it brought a smile to my face in this tragedy.
BrodieMan
09-12-01, 12:57 AM
hey, hyperbaseball are you sure about that 20+ draft thing? i'm just curious.....
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=3B9EA882.BAC95C4A%40hotmail.com&prev=/groups%3Fselm%3Dtpsnqtc6kkduae%2540corp.supernews.com&as_drrb=b&as_maxd=10&as_maxm=9&as_maxy=2001&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=1995
Read the first post, then all posts after it. It is simply amazing. A man made a thread on August 31(entitled "911")that:
"Something is going to happen tomorrow. This is a witness against everyone on
this newsgroup. I hate this newsgroup, and everyone on it sucks. REPENT! You
are all evil liars! Do not be so evil, and be holy. You are going to get me
killed because of the truth of my mouth. I am not telling you what is going
to happen until it does, because an EVIL and adulterous generation seeks for
a sign."
When mocked because his prediction of events to occure on September 1st(9/1/01=911) were wrong.
He then went on to post on September 4th:
"Wait 7 days, and then maybe I'll answer this post. You see, I am going away
in seven days, and you will not hear from me again."
7 days later was yesterday. A new subject within the thread was started yesterday, this time entitled 9/11 (September 9th), by the same man defending himself from the hundreds of posters who have said they are going to turn him into the FBI, many already have. I strongly suggest you read the thread. It is an eye opener. It has changed some of my views on the situation.
[Edited by OG- on 09-12-2001]
i know we arent from America, but i would just like to say we are just as shocked by these actions. The mood here in England is that of shock and disgust that anyone could do such a thing to so many people. My condolences to anyone who knew people in the twin towers or the pentagon. We are all praying for you.
Hi everyone, i realise that i am not froim America, but i would just like to express my heartfelt sadness towards this babarous attack. My country is in arms, and we are still trying to get over the shock. As i suspect you all are. Tony Blair, our Primeinister has issued a statment saying that we shall stand by America at all costs, even if war is iminent. After 25.000 people are reporting missing, i sat down in disbelif. The time difference over here is so that wen the first plane hit it was 2pm here. We all saw each plane hit, and then the towers collapsing. After the pentagon was hit and then the crash outside washington, i hope you are all okay. I am not a beliver in God, but yesterday i sat and prayed for you all as our world fell apart. like Blair said, itz not USA v Terroriusts, its the free demorcratic world against them. And....if you happen to see this, there are no words to describe the sickening act that you have commited. If your bodies are found, then you should not be buried on concectrated ground. YOU are not of this world. YOU are sick and YOU sahll be found and punished. If Bush declares war, i back him 100%. I am praying for you all.
I am also hope and praying that people who have relitives still missing or dead have comfort and a shoulder to cry on for we in britain feel your pain and WE WILL GET THE BASTU*RDS that did this mark my words we got russia and most of the western world on our side AND THEY WILL PAY!
sorry for getting angry but sadistic gits like that deserve to die slowly and painfully!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May yor gods be with you in this time of pain
just as an afterthought i should probably say that due to the time difference over here i found out about all of this when i came home from school. At first i thought it was something out of Independence day, but after realising it wasnt i couldnt believe what i was seeing. When i left for myu paper round people were out in the streets crying, unable to take in what had happened. And when i returned home, the second tower had collapsed. I am an atheist, but yesterday i prayed. My birthday celebrations were somewhat overshadowed. i spent all night watching the TV, waiting for some sign that they had caught the sadistic peope that did this. It was a cowardly act, killing innocent suvillians, and this is something i will always remember. how could this happen?
Originally posted by OG-
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,
While the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
- Nostradamus
just been reading through the thread, dear god that is freaky.
Originally posted by spdrcr
We haven't retaliated yet, but Bush is speaking tonight at 8:30 ET...and will address the nation about what has happened today. Bush might actually win the crowd tonight so to speak.
At a time of sorrow the nation isn't torn between color, religion, nationality, political side, we're all one right now. This is a truley sad day for all of us. I don't know of anyone not touched by this outside of Afganisthan.
This is something that won't go away..EVER. I live close to Oklahoma City and when that hit a few years ago the impact around here was drastically changed. No doubt this will change all over America if not in other countries as well.
Flying will be a little more dangerous to me now. This day changed moods faster than a chameleon can change its colors.
We are all are 1 nation, we all feel your pain, the reaction around the western world is that a 3rd war is coming. Nostradamuses prdiction has so far, come true. God save us all.
oh yeah, and i know i keep posting but i keep thinking of other stuff to write.
OG, thank god Danielles dad is ok, that has to be fate. My friend Bryony's dad was at the twin towers a few days ago, and would have still been there if he hadnt had to go to Thailand on urgent buisness, another close shave.
OG, thank God Dannielles dad is okay. I agree with Kielle, fate has played a cruel part in this tradgedy. I just hope that every child that went home to no parents, every wife that lost a husband, every husband that lost a wife and every parent who lost their child. My thoughts go out to you at this time of pain.
i get the impression that you are crying Aranor, dont worry, i am too. :bawl:
Indeed i am. Tueday 11th of September 2001 shall always be recognised as the day when the b******ds declared war on America.
ggfletch
09-12-01, 09:17 AM
From the news bulletins I've had the oppurtunity to watch, I'd say if anything that this will isolate the U.S further as George.W.Bush's term so far has indicated before these events. We in Britain have been shocked and devestated at the carnage in NY, the Pentagon etc. What this terroist act suggests is that the stakes have been raised, and these people have opened a new chapter in terrorist activity. The repression and pain of the Pallestinian people, has led to this conflict which in truth has been going since after WWII ended.
Originally posted by OG-
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,
While the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
- Nostradamus
The way I see it:
The City of God= New York
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos= The two towers
The fortress endures= The Pentagon
Great leader will succumb= Bush succumbs to war
yep, great birthday huh?
and if anyones wondering why Kyra hasnt written for a bit, i have just phoned her, shes feeling a bit out of sort after reading this thread, i can see why.
OG!!!!!!!!!!! r u alrite, how is danielle? I will come back 2moro. God save us all. I pray for you all. I do not envy you r position. Be safe, my friends.....................................................
iM HERE BUT BARELEY my mate who works near the Pentagon has not replied to another forum i go on and im really worried......Be safe and i hope anyone who is missing famliy they ok
Heres something from a post in reply to the prohicizer on that site:
"The flights that were Highjacked were from United and AA, they were
numbered as follows:
11, 93, 175, and 77
11 = Today's Date
9+3 = 12 = Tomorrow
1+7+5 = 13 = Thursday
7+7 = 14 = Friday
Hopefully this is a coincidence and the terrorists can't add. but if
this is correct there will either be acts of terrorism every day for
the next few days or a grand event the last day."
I truly hope this holds no truth
I'm alright, thanks for asking.
Danielle is fine, shooken up because her dad was saved by a miracle. Unfortunetly two friends of mine still have unaccounted for relatives that work at the Pentagon.
spudracer
09-12-01, 09:31 AM
Yeah OG-, did you notice yesterday's date was 911...My mom mentioned something to me about that and that's weird how the dates although probably not a factor, still play some part in these attacks, and are creepy as hell.
spudracer
09-12-01, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by OG-
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,
While the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
Everyone saw that Kabul was on fire yesterday didnt they?? Could that be the big city burning?
New York and the pentagon are both still on fire.
Sir Toose
09-12-01, 09:47 AM
[/B][/QUOTE]
A product of decreased military spending. A product of complacency. I declare jihad of my own! I hope I'm not too old to be drafted if called [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry. I was and remain very angry about this. I do not think that this will lead to war. I think that this is all the responsibility of the Al Quaida (sp) lead by Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden was responsible for the first bombing of the trade center in 1993. He failed and vowed to return.
Since then he has been responsible for the bombing of 2 US embassies and the warship USS Cole that killed that 17 American soldiers.
He has declared that the best way to serve his god is to kill Americans. Unfortunately he is widely supported in Afghanistan and many middle eastern militant factions. You may have seen his supporters dancing in the streets yesterday. To me the celebration of the loss of innocent life is in direct alignment to act of war in itself.
The fact that those people support him and harbor him make them his allies in war. In the past the US has been very careful to not harm innocent life in it's efforts to capture/exterminate Saddam Hussien and Osama Bin Laden. These two remain alive and increasingly combative with US interests for our support of Israel.
I say enough is enough. We need to find these perpetrators and put an end to their lives. They have killed thousands of Americans and they must die. I too fear war but I am so committed to this ideal that scared or not I am willing to volunteer my services in any way possible to protect my family, friends, and Americans in general be they republicans or democrats (we are one under the flag).
spudracer
09-12-01, 09:48 AM
Thats true, I just thought I would take a shot at these predictions cause they can mean just about anything. It's hard to believe that all of this has happened to this country. The scar from this will never go away. There's a hole in New York where three buildings stood...I would hope they build a memorial there to honor those who gave their lifes and those who died innocently.
http://www.fragfreak.com/img/strong.jpg
Some people think the Nostradamus thing is bogus:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=alt.prophecies.nostradamus&selm=gcHn7.5883%24Tv6.29523%40news1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au
But another person quoted the "whole thing" as he called it:
Fire in the New City
as the century spins into the new time
the five tiered ring is broken
birds in the skies come into foul hands
panic faces the people
in the city of god, there will be a great thunder
two brothers torn apart by chaos,
while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb,
the third big war when the big city is burning
Don't know what the Five-Tiered ring is. As you can see, the translations vary a bit. Big City and New City seem to fit New York, but does City of God? I doubt it.
Anyway, this guy things Nostradamus is bogus:
http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm
http://www.fragfreak.com/img/strong.jpg
Amazing.
Honestly, I think Nostradamus' writings are always translated poorly to fit the disaster. When something horrible happens, people go LOOKING for a verse that fits...and as such, they're more than likelyto translate things in their favor, so to speak, a little bit...so that City of God becomes Big City, for example, and other things like that.
The whole thing is flawed if you go looking for the verse afterwards, and have disrecepancies in the translations. Let's also not forget the fake Quatrain concerning the "village idiot" coming into power in the "largest nation" (or something like that) at the end of the millennium coming into power (Dubya, it was said). That wasn't real.
[Edited by TWTCommish on 09-12-2001]
spudracer
09-12-01, 10:02 AM
Five tiered thing would have to be Pentagon.
Originally posted by spdrcr
Five tiered thing would have to be Pentagon.
Ah, I see. D'oh. Surprised I didn't realize that. What's the City of God, though? as far as I know, Kabul isn't known as a significantly religious city...and there's no way it's NY.
I don't believe the Nostradomus thing either. I just thought it was interesting. A friend of mine, who is extremely smart said why it was wrong. For one the date after the quote is about 100 years after he died, and that quote was ment to applie to the civil war. People misinturpretted it.
jungerpants
09-12-01, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by BrodieMan
hey, hyperbaseball are you sure about that 20+ draft thing? i'm just curious.....
From The Selective Service Website (http://www.sss.gov/seq.htm):
2. THE LOTTERY
A lottery based on birthdays determines the order in which registered men are called up by Selective Service. The first to be called, in a sequence determined by the lottery, will be men whose 20th birthday falls during that year, followed, if needed, by those aged 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. 18-year-olds and those turning 19 would probably not be drafted.
Yeah, I read that, too. He died beforehand...so either the date or wrong, or the quote is fake. Another person on there says NY is at 40-40 anyway, and not 45 degrees. Yeah, it is all interesting, but it's bogus...just a shame people will go running to search for a verse that fits...and there are like 1,000 of them, so they won't be dissapointed.
I'll admit they're interesting anyway, though.
BrodieMan
09-12-01, 10:20 AM
oh, thank god. i don't want to sound unpatriotic, because i'd go to war if i absolutely had to, but i was honestly worried about that all day yesterday. still, i am so concerned over the whole mess....
Snakes47
09-12-01, 11:45 AM
I would go to war in a second. Not to go with the intention to die, but to defend freedom.
I actually hope that I can go.
If anyone has yet to seen the newsgroup discussion with one of the possible subjects take a look at this:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...ogle.com#link10
It is creepy, and beyond disturbing.
Steve
PigsnieLite
09-12-01, 11:49 AM
Well if I get drafted Im gonna hide under the couch. And if they still kidnap me Ill tell them Im really good at peelin potatoes.
It'll be a lot longer before you can go, I think, PLite. Snakes: I admire your bravery. I can only hope that I would be as brave in the face of such a horrible thing. The link didn't work, BTW. :(
spudracer
09-12-01, 12:05 PM
that link didn't work
I think hes linking to the same link I posted a while back, I guess just no one noticed....
spudracer
09-12-01, 02:17 PM
Im sorry...did we ignore you OG-??? I'm truley sorry...No seriously sorry didn't see the link before.
Sir Toose
09-12-01, 02:33 PM
Good stuff from my Federalist paper today:
Quote from Samuel Adams:
"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship, and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams
Check this out:
Until 8:45 a.m. Tuesday morning, Leftists on Capital Hill were attacking President Bush for his plans to rebuild our military capacity.(bet they're quiet now) But as security policy analyst Frank Gaffney notes: "This should put an end to discussion of funding our defense budget at levels inadequate to deal with two major contingencies simultaneously. We now have one at home; how long will it be before we have one
elsewhere?"
I'm with this...
Mr. Bush will be pressured by the Left to take the position that Tuesday's assault on our nation was a "crime" rather than an act of war -- limited to the actions of a few. We take strong exception to this position. Tuesday's events were, indeed, and act of WAR. While Congress fumbles around with resolutions of condemnation, President Bush must call for a declaration of war against bin Laden -- and any nation providing him safe harbor. Our nation's third president declared war against the Barbary pirates --bandits without borders -- so there is already historic precedent.
Must agree with this too...
In response to the slaughter of our fellow citizens -- thousands of innocent non-combatants -- former House Speaker Newt Gingrich concluded, "I don't want to bring them to justice. I want to defeat them." It is The Federalist's position that we should give nation's
which harbor terrorists the same advance warning we gave Hiroshima --and let fly. We must to turn the sands of Afghanistan into molten glass -- NOW -- and let bin Laden's other host nations know that our actions against Afghanistan were only the first volley of fire.
(Interestingly, after Russia's protracted war in Afghanistan, bombing that rogue regime into oblivion might get a quiet diplomatic nod.)
"But select capable men from all the people -- men who fear God,trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain -- and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties andtens." (Exodus 18:21)
++ "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord..." (Psalm 33:12a)
Sir Toose
09-12-01, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by spdrcr
Im sorry...did we ignore you OG-???
Allright quit bustin my chops... I already told ya I was just moody today.
I don't think he was trying to, I also said that people ignore some of the stuff I say. I posted the link a few pages back, but no one read my post.
spudracer
09-12-01, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Toose
Originally posted by spdrcr
Im sorry...did we ignore you OG-???
Allright quit bustin my chops... I already told ya I was just moody today.
At first I was, but I said seriously now...im sorry...
Sorry for the poking fun of, Toose. Hope we are more chatty with you now. :D
thmilin
09-12-01, 03:06 PM
"At a time of sorrow the nation isn't torn between color, religion, nationality, political side, we're all one right now. This is a truley sad day for all of us. I don't know of anyone not touched by this outside of Afganisthan. "
To some degree, this is true. My fear, however, is that, like in WWII, the nation will begin to point fingers and the wrongs the government did to the Japanese and German-Americans will be repeated against middle easterners. If you think of it, this country is FILLED with foreigners. I don't want groups persecuted, I don't want hate crimes, I don't want fear within our ranks, most especially because it's bad for us and on top of that that's what the enemy wants.
Except for occasional terrorist acts, if you think about the few that affect such a huge nation - it's small in comparison to the countries that are war torn daily, in a neverending hell of murder, torture, regimes, faiths and hatred and revenge gone rabid at the expense of humanity. Women, children, innocents, murdered across the seas. And we americans live in near bliss with news channels we can flip past while we live our idyllic lives and worry only about the billions we need to spend wisely while other countries don't even have reliable FOOD, WATER, SHELTER, SAFETY, protection from their own goverments - let alone "billions."
We are a nation others are bound to hate, and not without reason. These type of actions are to be expectd and prepared for. They weren't. And we have paid a high, painful price.
I hope that we act wisely; I hope that revenge is not the only concern, I hope that it does not degrade to bombs vs. bombs and world war 3. I don't know what I want our country to do; of course some action must be taken; but violence for the sake of retaliation is not the solution. Then again, neither is rolling over.
We are at a crossroads and from this point on, like each tense point in the history of the world, from the west to the east, nothing will ever be the same - for us, or for anyone else.
as for premonitions ... I believe there are seers; then again, we cannot know if they tell the truth and what they tell the truth about until well after the fact.
I would argue that there isn't much reason to hate us...but I agree that it is not surprise that we are hated. Have you ever known a successful person without enemies? Lots of people hate Bill Gates. Success breeds hatred, inevitably, and the US is a successful country.
spudracer
09-12-01, 03:22 PM
Well, it's like a rich powerful popular person. There are people that envy that person for all they have, and so they will do what they can to bring that person down to their level or bring their world down. It's sad that some of these countries are jealous. It's not our fault, they need to blame their leaders for the quality of life, before they attack another country.
Sir Toose
09-12-01, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by spdrcr
Originally posted by Toose
Originally posted by spdrcr
Im sorry...did we ignore you OG-???
Allright quit bustin my chops... I already told ya I was just moody today.
At first I was, but I said seriously now...im sorry...
Sorry for the poking fun of, Toose. Hope we are more chatty with you now. :D
I love you man
Sir Toose
09-12-01, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by thmilin
My fear, however, is that, like in WWII, the nation will begin to point fingers and the wrongs the government did to the Japanese and German-Americans will be repeated against middle easterners.
This will not happen. Our culture is more evolved as are our people. I am an American even though the blood of Germany and Ireland run in my veins. My wife was born in Iran, my wife and children are Americans. The definition is different than it was 60 years ago. These are acts that were committed by very specific individuals. It is these very specific individuals and anyone who chooses to protect them that will be targeted.
thmilin
09-12-01, 05:24 PM
i hope so.
as for a reason to hate successful people ... the example given (Bill Gates) supports my point. The most successful people are not infallible, nor perfect. Neither is this nation. This nation has done things, is doing things, and will do things that aren't without some element of iffyness. In Bill Gates' case ... what did he have to do, how did he have to treat people, and what little people were crushed and elbowed out of the way for him to climb to the top?
It's true that people will always be jealous of the successful popular people but not entirely without reason. The successful popular people are that way for a reason - and it's what they do to get there that can often incite hatred. I don't disagree some people get envious just b/c so and so has something. But it's not just the fault of other nation's goverments when the US gets involved to "help" but really manipulates the situation in order to serve their own interests, affecting other countries way of life to serve US ideals, and own agendas/vendettas. If we stayed in our own little pocket and talked to no one and then something like this happened, it'd make more sense to say "We didn't hurt anybody, what did we do to provoke this?" But when we are as involved in world affairs and influence as we are, the slate is complicated and we are not without fault. I am not saying we DESERVED this tragedy. No one does. I am simply stating that it is unsurprising, to be expected, and our actions have played a part in it. Others do indeed, I feel, have some grounds to dislike the US. Not to HURT the US, but to hate us.
I disagree on some of those points. For one, I do not think getting to the top requires that you commit some sort of offense against someone else. I think, instead, that you're bound to make someone think that you've committed some offense to get there, because there are bound to be people who disagree with your methods, even if they're really, honestly moral.
I think the US has made mistakes, but I honestly believe we've acted with better intentions than most. From what I understand, before we bombed Hiroshima, we dropped flyers all over the city, warning people to leave beforehand. Do our enemies ever offer the same courtesy? I know this is going to make me come off as a pig-headed American (it's okay, I'm used to it), but I think we've been most just and fair than most other countries out there.
If some mistakes are inevitable, and we've made less than others, then I don't know that there is necessarily a good reason to hate us. I can't say for sure, but I would hesitate to agree with that notion right away.
Sir Toose
09-12-01, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
From what I understand, before we bombed Hiroshima, we dropped flyers all over the city, warning people to leave beforehand. Do our enemies ever offer the same courtesy?
You are correct in your points. Also, this same courtesy was extended to Baghdad during the Gulf War.
The difference is that America hits strategic war related targets. We hit ammo dumps, military airports, military fuel dumps etc.
Pearl Harbor was a strategic hit by the Japanese during War times because they felt genuinely threatened by the US warships.
This act yesterday was an assault on the "symbol" of western success and on the "symbol" of US power. This was not a strategic act of war. This was the murder of thousands of innocents.
Sir Toose
09-12-01, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by thmilin
In Bill Gates' case ... what did he have to do, how did he have to treat people, and what little people were crushed and elbowed out of the way for him to climb to the top?
Bill Gates climbed to the top easily because he had no competition. He saw opportunity that no one else saw and he busted his a*s promoting it. Since then he has endeavored to build the better mousetrap. He has responded to exactly what people have told him that they want and he has given the people better than what they have asked for. I don't think Bill Gates should be punished for this. I'll amend my first sentence by saying that Gates didn't climb to the top... he established it as he was going by being catapulted by demand.
PigsnieLite
09-12-01, 06:40 PM
I dont think the US hit just military stuff in the war. Wasnt city of Tokyo carpet bombed? And even if the US did warn Hiroshima & nagasaki that they were gonna nuke them, were they militry bases? They seemed more like cities to me.
ggfletch
09-12-01, 07:16 PM
That is a good point Pigsnielite, there is no point trying to condone (in any way, shape or form) an act of war such as the bombings of Nagasaki or Hiroshima. We, the Western society have to realise that this problem of Palestinian's (and the religion of Islam's) resentment towards the U.S and the so-called civilized world; is a product of us (the allies) pushing the Palestinians out of the holy land. This said these kind of tactics are mind-blowingly twisted. This kind of evil is an evil that we as a society will never understand.
When seeing the footage and hearing the news reports I admit I had tears in my eyes. I think we all (the world) relied on the U.S as this fortress of commerce and military power, but now we see that you are just as vunerable as anyone else. The long term repurcusions of this will be felt for many years, and I think we'll all remember the day, the moment and the feelings we felt for the rest of our lives
Oh, the US does bomb non-military targets at times...but from what I understand, the Japanese were trying to take over the friggin' world man. If so, then I think we did the right thing...especially with all those warnings. I mean, isn't a warning like that, dropping fliers, completely unheard of from anyone else?
ggfletch: any instigation we caused is no where remotely near that which deserves such an attack. And besides: if this is the way they respond to us taking sides on this issue, then I think we took the right side (Isreal's).
ggfletch
09-12-01, 07:42 PM
originally posted by TWTCommish
ggfletch: any instigation we caused is no where remotely near that which deserves such an attack. And besides: if this is the way they respond to us taking sides on this issue, then I think we took the right side (Isreal's). [/B]
I never suggested anything of the kind. I was just trying to put my point in a historical context, if people don't know, they should. We pushed them out of their own country to appologise to the Jews; this is like saving one persectuted people by persecuting another. I know I'm going to be doing some reading on the subject. I don't think that this in anyway to excuses their actions, God no. We must however acknowledge a part of history that is seldom mentioned when talking about the problem's in Israel.
sunfrog
09-12-01, 08:12 PM
Hey Og! or whoever posted that Google link
If anyone wants to become a follower of me, you should make plans together
and go out to Arizona desert and make yourselves a small adobe commune. I
will meet you out there if I find that this is indeed what has happened and
I can find the location on the site. If it is secret, I will email and find
out the location.
I live in Az!
Btw, I heard they arested some guys in Boston and also that Chevy Chase (comedian) was on one of the planes. That might be a rumor.
If Chase were did, I'd have probably heard of it before now. Lots of rumors flying around.
sunfrog
09-12-01, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
But another person quoted the "whole thing" as he called it:
Fire in the New City
as the century spins into the new time
the five tiered ring is broken
birds in the skies come into foul hands
panic faces the people
in the city of god, there will be a great thunder
two brothers torn apart by chaos,
while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb,
the third big war when the big city is burning
Check out what that X nut wrote in one of his posts
He also says, "When the FIRST NUKE hits ISRAEL, then ROME then Washington DC
you will see THE CRASH OF WALL STREET!"
The city of God is Jerusalem. The two brothers Jerusalem and Rome and the great leader The Pope?? If they nuke the Pope I think that would be enough to start WWIII and provide a link to the Bible.
Okay, before I hit submit I went and read a bunch of this guy's stuff cuz it was freaking me out. I don't think he's a prophet anymore, just a nut who somehow got involved with the terrorists. I went and read some of his old posts and he talks about aliens and weird stuff like this:
Millions of pounding feet will launch Science Year
Thousands of schools across Britain are being asked to let children jump
together in their playgrounds to create the world's largest scientific
experiment.
At 1100BST on Friday, at least a million children will jump for a minute.
A million children with an average weight of 7st 12 lb (50 kg) jumping 20
times would release two billion joules of energy.
Scientists want to measure the impact on seismometers - machines used to
monitor earthquakes - but it should not register more than three on the
Richter Scale.
I'm not so scared anymore, but what's this Arizona stuff. And flee to the desert stuff? Don't come here.
I have to admit, I really don't understand most of your last post, Frogman. :(
Anyway, I don't think that It's referring to Rome and all that. If the "two brothers" means anything, it would be the WTC. Even that isn't perfect, but it's as close as we'll get with these predictions.
thmilin
09-12-01, 09:04 PM
addendum:
i never said Bill Gates deserved to be punished. let's put it this way: in business, you don't always play nice. i'm not saying he's evil, and i don't knock him for being successful. he earned what he's gotten, his hard work deserves rewards. he doesn't deserve *punishment* just like I said the US doesn't.
I've got some news about the Nostradamus thing!:D
http://fury.com/article/925.php
PigsnieLite
09-12-01, 09:52 PM
Ugggh, people are always debunkin stuff before I can believe in it, dam!!!
I beleive in this one though.
______________________________________________
The field of the temple of the vestal virgin,
Not far from Elne and the Pyrenees mountains:
The great tube is hidden in the trunk.
To the north rivers overflown and vines battered.
____________________________________________
Vestal virgin, that is obviously Britney Spears! And the great tube is her tube top she wears in Pepsi commercials. :laugh: :laugh:
thmilin
09-12-01, 10:31 PM
come on, PLite, I know you can think dirtier than THAT ...
And you forgot about her Elne and her Pyrenees :D
thmilin
09-12-01, 10:41 PM
but you know what, i take that back. this is not the place for this kind of talk and i apologize; sometimes i get sidetracked by PLite's humor and wandering attention span ...
sunfrog
09-12-01, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by OG-
I've got some news about the Nostradamus thing!:D
Doh! It was freaking me out. You made me p my pants OG. ;D I thought the end of the world was coming.
Anyway I just wanted to find out if all those British kids jumped up and down.
lol, Yea they did actually!!
hey! glad to see the moods a bit lighter over here! Everyone in our school is still upset, its diffucult.
That Nostra Damus thing scared the smeg out of me! (and i dont care what smeg means, i like that word!)
but didnt he also say the world was going to end last year, and the year before... and the year before come to think of it!
i really dont think i can take anything this man says seriously when i should have already died at least six times from the world ending.
Sir Toose
09-13-01, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
I dont think the US hit just military stuff in the war. Wasnt city of Tokyo carpet bombed? And even if the US did warn Hiroshima & nagasaki that they were gonna nuke them, were they militry bases? They seemed more like cities to me.
You're right... When these cities were bombed though war had already been declared and we as a nation felt threatened by Japan.
I should have said that we never initiated a war in this manner.
:) Thanks for straightening me out :)
Hey!Well its the day after the day after, hope you are all still alright. Britain and my family still cry when they see the new footage of the falling people and the new camera angles on the planes, as would you, i should imagine.
I shouldnt worry about that Nostradamus thing, as Kielle has sed , he has predicted the end of the world..several times.lets not let fact and coincidence get mixed up!
What are your thoughts after Bush sayin "this is not an act of terror, but an act of war?!"...that is scary, but the mother f*******s (sorry commish, my anger preceds my typing!) will fell the wrath of Britain, Russia, France and Germany...all teamed up with America!
My prayers are still with you all, and now the families of the few confirmed dead.........
hey Aranor, stop being so morbid. i know this is tragic and i am still devastated, but be thankful you're still here!
carpe diem and all that!
Sir Toose
09-13-01, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by ggfletch
We, the Western society have to realise that this problem of Palestinian's (and the religion of Islam's) resentment towards the U.S and the so-called civilized world; is a product of us (the allies) pushing the Palestinians out of the holy land.
True statement. However I think it's gone beyond religion and into out and out revenge. One of the main principles of the Moslem religion is that suicide is the biggest sin one can commit. If it were for religion only then there is no way all those moslems would commit themselves to hell (unless they thought they had special permission from Allah)
yes lets be optamistic (holy Sh~t wat if they come after us brits)
I know! I'm sorry, do you like my new signature? Hey toose, how are you? Do you live enywhere near the sites?
Kyra show some respect! hang on, sorry, no more personal conversations! sorry commish!
sorry im just a little insecure(Gibber quibble)
its pronounced wibble Kyra. and i really dont think this is the right thread for this conversation. you want to takl more, go to french. and start where we left off.
Wibble quibble wats the difference WERE ALL GONA DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kyra! Kielle! STOP THIS INFERNAL RGUING (commish is feel i must apologise for their disgustin behaviour!)
hey i was trying to stop her! look. we should go to the French thread. sorry everyone!
spudracer
09-13-01, 09:37 AM
Could you pick another place to have a conversation with yourselves??? I mean come on, at least go to your French thread or something, this isn't the most appropriate thread to do this in. :(
Sir Toose
09-13-01, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Aranor
I know! I'm sorry, do you like my new signature? Hey toose, how are you? Do you live enywhere near the sites?
Fine sir, how are you? I guess I'm not fine... I'm angry. I have a renewed respect for the allies and especially for G.B. (I've always had alot of respect for the English... Mr. Blair has reminded me of why)
Tony Blair
People of all faiths and all democratic political persuasions have a common cause: to identify this machinery of terror and to dismantle it as swiftly as possible. With our American friends, and other allies around the world, this is the task to which we now turn."
Thank you all for your support and kind words.
I live in Houston. We had a couple of scares yesterday... they blocked off the downtown section in fear of a bomb. Apparently there was an abandoned moving truck near the courthouse. Turned out to be just an abandoned moving truck. I guess we'll all live in fear for a while (I hate it too because that's precisely what the terrorists want).
I wouldn't worry about them coming after you. I'm pretty sure that this was a small group who did a big thing. I think it took over a year to plan and I think it exceeded their expectations. This is not an action that is done on a whim and could be repeated at will. The whole world is on alert for this sort of thing now.
Hopefully Mr. Bush can get permission from the various Middle Eastern countries to extricate those responsible. I think the Saudi's will cooperate. Pakistan is already negotiating on our behalf with Afghanistan. I think we will see that no one is willing to put up with this kind of thing.
Originally posted by Toose
I guess we'll all live in fear for a while (I hate it too because that's precisely what the terrorists want).
[/B]
I think its happening over here. Everybody went back to work yesterday and then today, they shut down some of the government buildings again. I talked to one of the agents. And he said that there's the conviction that nothing else will happen after this 4-prong attack. So people relax. But I told him--we can't be afraid all the time now though. He agreed. But he added that we can't go on the way we have been going on. People should be on the alert. This isn't my Grandma's time. THe world is a crazier place. And he added that our government should be more careful about our foreign policy. He doesn't think they realize how much the US is hated. (This is from an FBI agent!) :eek:
Sir Toose
09-13-01, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Wart
Originally posted by Toose
I guess we'll all live in fear for a while (I hate it too because that's precisely what the terrorists want).
This isn't my Grandma's time. THe world is a crazier place. [/B]
Your Grandma's time was probably nuttier than it is now.. depending on how old she is she was either around to remember WW1, WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. Our time has been relatively peaceful.
spudracer
09-13-01, 03:22 PM
Bush has declared that tomorrow(Friday, 14th) that it will be a national day for prayer. Please take time today, tomorrow, and any other day you have a few minutes to give to pray for the people working on rescuing those trapped, those who are trapped, those who have lost someone, or still have someone missing, and our government.
This is truley a sad time, they have estimated that there are at least 4,760 missing people that have been registered. If you have someone you know was there and havent heard from make sure to call the number givin on the television and make sure a friend or family member is registered as missing.
thmilin
09-13-01, 03:28 PM
that FBI agent knows what I'm talking about:
"And he added that our government should be more careful about our foreign policy. He doesn't think they realize how much the US is hated."
EXACTLY.
I agree, Miriam; we are hated. But does that mean we give into insanity? If we're hated without a good reason, does that mean we change our actions and methods so that the crazy, irrational hatred of us will stop? I'm not so sure. I suppose it would be best to keep it on a case-by-case basis.
sunfrog
09-13-01, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by thmilin
He doesn't think they realize how much the US is hated."
There was a story on UK Today this morning about that. They interviewed two Americans and the lady was saying that Americans are sheltered and naive when it comes to the rest of the world. I totally agree whith what she said. I do feel shocked that someone hates America enough to do this to us. I thought we were the good guys, but aparently we are doing things to people out there that they feel so strongly against that they would die for it. I still think of them as nutcases but still, it makes me wonder, is the US that bad? Are our policies evil??
They also read an email sent from an American in Pheonix, Az that said exactly what I feel about the Brits. Thank you for all your support, consern and prayers. It feels really good to know someone is there for us. I wish I could hug you all. The email said it better. I'm kinda too sad to be eloquent right now. The BBC also said 100 Britons confirmed dead at the WTC. I'm so sorry for you all. I had no idea. I said prayers for all of you last night. :(
Sir Toose
09-13-01, 04:24 PM
No matter what you do in your life someone will hate you. They will not like the way you look, the way you dress, and on and on...
You can not change who you are because someone does not like you. We need to go back to taking care of #1 (US and Allies)for a while until we can regroup with hopefully some new policies.
Sun... the US is not evil. We do what we feel is right and just. To some this may appear to be evil just as what they have done seems right and just to them. I'm sure they feel persecuted and I'm sure they feel they have injured the dragon, hence the celebration.
I feel that we have acted appropriately to our interests in the past. If we had acted differently we would have a different set of enemies. We just have to continue to do what is right for us.
I noticed this today in my school and I've seen it many other places, people don't understand why this was done towards the US. It wasn't because they hate democracy's principles. It wasn't because the US wronged them. It wasn't because the US appears to be so powerful. It was because countries such as the US condone sinning without repent. According to the terrorists, and the terrorists followers, the US is a country(1 of many) that allows it's citizens to sin against the world without repent. This is a big no no in their religon. That is why they took soo many civillan lives. Not because they were cowards, but because to them we are sinners who should be punished.
Like Toose said, what they did is just in their eye's, just as everything the US has done in the past, and will do in the future, is considered just in the US' eyes. I would say there are no countries that love the US as a whole. Their governments may, but the citizens never do. All over the middle east, in South America, and in Africa US hatered is an everyday site, but it is also everywhere else. I bought a copy of FHM when I was England and was angered when I flipped halfway thtough the magazine to find an article titled "Dear America...We Hate You!!!", accompanied with a picture of a burning American flag. Hopefully this will knock some of the arrogance out of many Americans who believe they are better than everyone in every other country(I doubt it will though, it will most likely have the opposite affect).
On a side note, Today was a very good day in America. Everyone is showing support for their fellow American. It was a deeply moving site to drive to school to do and see American Flags hanging from bridges and overpasses. It truly was a great site to see such love for the country.
Another side not for anyone who read all of the link I posted earlier. The man who knew this all was going to happen also said something along the lines of "and then the first bombs will go off in Rome, then Paris, then London untill the World is coming to an end." I can't wait for them to find this SOB. I amoung many others already notified the FBI about him.
PigsnieLite
09-13-01, 05:15 PM
I havent read that story Sun, where is it? I agree with it though. Pigsnie said last night that Americans are innocents abroad. The US govt has done so many secret heinoos things & the whole world knows it but US citizens are kept in the dark. I didnt even know until last night that the CIA trained Bin laden. And Pigsnie is out tonite to go to a memorial service. Two of his BBC friends were killed in Twin towers. :( :(
Plite, where'd you hear that CIA thing??
Please give my condolences to Pigsnie.
PigsnieLite
09-13-01, 05:31 PM
Pigsnie told me. And I saw it in a BBC report too.
Sir Toose
09-13-01, 05:37 PM
Firstly
Bin Laden was trained by Americans during the battle between Afghanistan and Russia. The US was at odds w/Russia and decided to help the Afghans by donating training and 6 million $ in weapons. It is honorable of the Russians to side with us now.
Check this out... the whole world is coming together on this...
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/13/world.response/index.html
DeSeRt RaT UK
09-13-01, 07:03 PM
Well lets hope that Russia will side along with the US. The two superpowers of the world working together would help revenge come closer for you.
Today I walked to my bus stop and saw something very touching. The house opposite had flown the American flag on the 4th July and nice to see that they have had it out along side the British flag since the acts of terrorism.
The British public is definatly on your side.
PigsnieLite
09-13-01, 07:12 PM
Have you guys seen his pic? I think it looks like Tim curry.
http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm
No But I saw this pic!
http://www.ideagroup.ch/news/wtfisthat.jpg
I like how George W. Bush can address the nation and tell us nothing at all that we don't already know.
If we know it was Osama Bin Laden, then I think we should issue Afghanistan an ultimatum: turn him over to us, or suffer the consequences. But we CANNOT act until we are ABSOLUTELY sure of who it was. Otherwise, we'll have a war on our hands.
Got this in an email, pass it on to everyone you know.
Friday night @ 7:00pm step out of your door,
step out of your car, or step our of your
establishment and light a candle. We will show the
world that Americans are strong and united together
against terrorists. Please pass this to everyone on
your e-mail list. We need to reach everyone across
the United States quickly.
Originally posted by Steve N.
I like how George W. Bush can address the nation and tell us nothing at all that we don't already know.
I share some of that frustration, but I don't think there's much choice here. He can't discuss their future planes in detail, he can't discuss much in terms of the intelligence they've gathered, and yet I think people still need to hear him talking about this. I think it reassures a lot of Americans.
And yeah, I agree, once they've confirmed the identities of those involved, give the government holding them one chance to turn them over.
Sir Toose
09-13-01, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Steve N.
I like how George W. Bush can address the nation and tell us nothing at all that we don't already know.
If we know it was Osama Bin Laden, then I think we should issue Afghanistan an ultimatum: turn him over to us, or suffer the consequences. But we CANNOT act until we are ABSOLUTELY sure of who it was. Otherwise, we'll have a war on our hands.
Too late we already have a war on our hands!
sunfrog
09-13-01, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by ThePman
I havent read that story Sun, where is it?
What? The story about the 100 Britons? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1542000/1542429.stm) Or the lady talking thing? It was an interview they had on the tv show. I'm not sure if it's called UK Today or BreakfastTV. It comes on at 8am your time. It's on CSpan here late at night. CSpan turns into BBC 1 or 2, not sure. I've only seen it twice. That reminds me..
It's only 17 degrees there!?? You must have some other form of temerature reading. Is it winter there???
TobyDammit
09-13-01, 10:29 PM
Let me just say how sad this all makes me. I extend my deepest sympathies to all people in America right now.
Plite, please let Pigsnie know that I am very sorry to hear of his loss aswell.
That is all I can say right now. It is all too surreal.
Jenny*B
09-14-01, 01:23 AM
I just thought this would be a good place to post this: in the end, all of us will be affected by this. Whether we do end up in war or not, this is not going to go away anytime soon. My love goes to the victims and families of these tragedies, and I hope we nail down the attackers.
Peace.
Sir Toose
09-14-01, 08:56 AM
There is a time and a place for everything.
NOW is NOT the time for Peter Jennings and the rest of the liberal news media to start sniping at Bush. Jennings said that Bush's "inability to communicate" was hindering efforts.
This from a man who cannot complete a thought.
I'm so sick of the liberal media's divisiveness and their consistent attacks on the conservatives.
Use your FUC**NG HEAD PETER JENNINGS!!!! PICK A MORE APPROPRIATE TIME!!!!
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/13/140635.shtml
hi again. found out today that a good friend of the family was in the WTC, still missing. Could y'all say a quick prayer for him. Thanks.
even thought i dont belive in god i prayed for all you guys today
I will kielle
spudracer
09-14-01, 09:54 AM
Right now, I think they need to stop having 24/7 coverage of this. I think they should break in only when needed, and just run headlines at the bottom of the screen.
A lot of people are not wanting to see all of this coverage and a lot of older men that have been in war before don't like the fact that America might be going back to war.
Is all this coverage nessecary? I mean they really haven't been showing anything important, but talking to family members of the ones that are missing or that are dead.
PigsnieLite
09-14-01, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by sunfrog
What? The story about the 100 Britons? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1542000/1542429.stm) Or the lady talking thing? It was an interview they had on the tv show. I'm not sure if it's called UK Today or BreakfastTV. It comes on at 8am your time. It's on CSpan here late at night. CSpan turns into BBC 1 or 2, not sure. I've only seen it twice. [/B]
OH, brekfast TV. I never watch breakfast TV, Im already in skizool by then. No wonder I never saw it. Tonight on the news, evryone is sayin war is iminent, the US will attack Afghan. Pigsnie says that even if Bin Ladin is turned in, the US will probably still bomb to teach Afghan a lesson.
Toby, OG- I will tell Pigsnie, thanks. And he told me he knew 10 people who were in twin towers.
Sir Toose
09-14-01, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sunfrog
And he told me he knew 10 people who were in twin towers.
:eek: Dam! Please add me to that list!
Hey guys, sorry that i waznt in the forum wen Kielle and Kyra were! I was elswhere! Hope you are still okay and hope that this will all end soon. Please speak to me if you are logged on!
Just read a quote that I found personally unsettling:
Afghanistan's Taliban said Friday it expected to be hit by a massive attack by the United States and vowed that it would take revenge.
"We are ready to pay any price to defend ourselves and to use all means take our revenge,"
I truly hope nuclear weapons don't get involved. I spent about two hours arguing with 400 people on irc that we should not use nuclear weapons. Does anyone on this board disagree wtih me??
On a happier note! I forgot to mention this earlier, but the night of the attack someone hacked into the Taliban's international website and changed everything to say "how much they hated them and hoped that they would all pay for this." Of course they used much more profanity!!
And a happy note for Chris, yesterday on irc I got into a debate about religion, and I found myself defending the points of the christian's against an extremely abusive and arrogant fool!! They thanked me for standing up for them even though I don't believe in what they do!! Aren't you proud of me?!:D
PigsnieLite
09-14-01, 06:21 PM
Nuclear weapons are bad bad bad. Do you relly want to go around pulverizin little Afghan babies to nothing? Ive been to the Hiroshima museum with Pigsnie & Id rather be dead than nuked. Afghan is already nothin but desert, it is a very poor country with mostly donkeys & camels. the US shouldnt confuse the people of afghan with the govt of Aghan. I think if the US does this I would not care for the US very much. :(
DeSeRt RaT UK
09-14-01, 07:29 PM
Using nuclear weapons would be the stupidest action to do in this situation. The taleban goverment have said that if the US does attack (even without a nuclear arsenal) then they will retaliate with terrorist attacks. So imagine if the US does use Nukes. Then they will retalite with something that will make what originally happened look like nothing. Then what has been achieved? Hundruds of thousands dead? Possibly even millions.
Military actions like these can not be made in retaliation.
Originally posted by OG-
but the night of the attack someone hacked into the Taliban's international website and changed everything to say "how much they hated them and hoped that they would all pay for this."
What's the address?
Originally posted by OG-
They thanked me for standing up for them even though I don't believe in what they do!! Aren't you proud of me?!:D
So how were you able to defend something you did not believe in? :)
And no nukes! Not on anyone! And think about biologicals! We should just insert some specialists or sumthin and take out the terrorists! Maybe we have a team like the ones in the Tom Clancy book. Rainbow 6?
[Edited by Wart on 09-14-2001]
sunfrog
09-14-01, 08:22 PM
No, no nukes. I too will be ashamed of the US if we do. I think we should go after Bin Laden and his 25,000 followers tho. To me, 25,000 equals an army. So we should fight his army and leave the civillians out of it. War should be fought by armies, that's what they do. They fight other armies.
What I think might happen is Bush will take this opportunity to go after all the terrorists all over the world. The whole world pretty much said they would back him up with whatever he does. I think we'll go after our terrorists, UK will go after theirs, Isreal theirs etc.. One big worldwide effort to get all the terrorists once and for all. Something will definetly happen. I don't think they'll stop at putting a few people in jail. I'm kinda scared of what the US will do myself. :(
-Wart
Don't remember the website, it was sent to me by a friend. They had to shut down the site all together though because they changed everything about it, and somehow blocked out the original creators.
Oh and I defended them by shooting down everything that the idiot said was fact, or that was smart, and all sorts of other stuff. I basically kept asking him questions that he had no answers to.
:bawl: I'm so proud of you! :bawl:
I think the article was on http://www.theregister.co.uk -- I believe it was hacked more than once, too, but I'm not sure. Ahhh, gotta love those US hackers...born and raised, baby.
Oh, and I don't like the idea of a bombing, but if the government refuses to turn Bin Laden over, It becomes much more reasonable. I don't know if this is plausible, but I think a very precise, dedicated, and long attack on specific terrorists through assassination might help.
We don't even know if Osama Bin Laden is responsible for this. There's nothing but circumstantial evidence. I totally understand why he's a suspect, but we CANNOT do anything until we are absolutely sure. That would be a disaster. And Afghanistan has made it easy for Bush. If it WAS Bin Laden, then we can just go bomb them (with no nuclear weapons involved !!!!), becuase they lied through their teeth - except, we won't aim for anything but military bases and known spots where Bin Laden hides. Revenge shouldn't be the issue - justice should.
I agree with Steve on almost everything...'cept Bin Laden. I've heard that the government is something like 90% sure he was at least involved, if not overseeing the entire thing. And, of course, the government probably knows tons more than you or I, so for all we know, they may have confirmed his involvement, and have him tracked down already!
Justice, indeed. Would you believe that I've probably run into 2 or 3 people online who think that violence is out of line on our part? As if this can be solved by talking things though! I realize that many liberals are very idealistic...but some of these people sound like children who just want mom/dad to stop fighting, even if keeping quiet and sitting by idle will just make it worse.
How many have to die before we intervene? I find it *very* ironic that these people want us to let people do...in the name of peace. How warped is that (rhetorical question)? :) I've actually been told that killing Bin Laden won't make any difference, and that violence is never the answer. Nonsense...violence has been the answer to lots of things. Go tell William Wallace fighting back is a bad idea.
TWT, I think violence needs to be avoided in this situation if at all possible. But if it was Bin Laden, and we've been lied to, then we have to teach Afghanistan a lesson. I think it's that simple. For example, say we find out that Osama Bin Laden WAS responsible for this, and we tell the Taliban we have proof. If they still refuse to turn him over to us, we go to war. But if they do turn him over, then we deal with Bin Laden, and let them go on their way.
I agree. If these countries cooperate, then it'd probably be foolish to do anything to them. But anyone who has done this, had any role in this, or refuses to turn them over to us, doesn't really deserve anything else than an attack. I know that sounds cruel, but I don't think it is.
It's so weird...my mother is around 40 years old, and this is the worst event that's happened during her entire lifetime. I think the outrage here is so high because, I'd bet, over 90% of America has never experienced anything like this. All the other recent disasters pale in comparison.
I just hope that this serves as a universal kick in the butt to remind us that freedom comes at a COST. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." I think we became too complacent.
sunfrog
09-15-01, 12:45 AM
Hey doesn't one of the apocalypse prophesys say an innocent will die? Or do I watch too many movies? Sorry, OG has me freaked out over here. What was that CNN pic? Did they really say What the eff is that? :)
PigsnieLite
09-15-01, 05:48 AM
We went to a candle thingie last night for the US victims & I was lookin at all the American flags & flowers & I said to Pigsnie how the papers are all sayin that the world has changed becuz of this tragedy, when really, many other people are bein beheaded & shot & thrown in ditches everyday in other terrorist attacks & it seems the world DOESNT change when THEY die. And Pignie says its becuz those victims dont have a good publicist. :(
Snakes47
09-15-01, 12:11 PM
I just want to say that I'm so proud to be an American at this point and time.
It is a bit sad that only tragedies like these bring out this patriotism and feeling of one among citizens. That aside, it is amazing to see how everyone is coming together.
I now know why we are the strongest country in the world...and I don't mean politically.
Stand Proud,
Steve
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
. . . I said to Pigsnie how the papers are all sayin that the world has changed becuz of this tragedy, when really, many other people are bein beheaded & shot & thrown in ditches everyday in other terrorist attacks & it seems the world DOESNT change when THEY die. :(
Yeah. South Africa, by itself, has very probably killed more people in the course of its "secret" warfare on its neighbors than the PLO, Red Brigades, Baader-Meinhof gang, Carlos, Cuba and Libya taken together.
thmilin
09-16-01, 03:33 AM
"I agree, Miriam; we are hated. But does that mean we give into insanity?"
No. i didn't say that we should.
"If we're hated without a good reason, does that mean we change our actions and methods so that the crazy, irrational hatred of us will stop?"
depends on what you mean by change our actions and methods. our foreign policy actions are sometimes dubious, manipulative, insensitive, and/or selfish. to cease to be these things but still do good is good for us AND good for them.
it's the behavior of our government in interactions, as well as our peoples abroad, though. i know i've talked about this before, but the koreans can't stand us in S. Korea. The citizens intheir day to day lives loathe our presence, a lot of them. Or, we're an unsightly nuisance. We've taken a sizely chunk of their capital and filled it with our own military housing and buildings, a little paradise of trees and residences and spacious streets in the midst of a smog filled, skyscraper, crowded landscape of a city. we provide them with tourist trade and our dollar. yet we muscle our way through and contribute to drunken gambling, rudeness, crudeness, and american bred ignorance of a sensitivity to other cultures and needs. that is the immediate result of "foreign policy" - military installations abroad. those servicemen engaging in foreign lands and enacting the ignorance that is bred at home.
then, there's the government, lobbying for influence, power, and it's own needs, trying to keep its hands clean while making use of other countries to its own sense of righteousness and justice.
that's why i hate politics. most people in it are not people of justice, of true honor, yet they're out there deciding things on a "case by case basis." and the more time passes, their actions engender more hatred and angst and disappointment and disgust.
the saving grace of americans is their positive nature, their hope, their solidarity, their pride, their confidence, their spunk. we do things, we make them happen. everyone likes the big loud fun guy in the room.
but they can't stand him, either, because he's insensitive, ignorant, rude, selfish, and a bull in a china shop when it comes to others' feelings and needs.
i say america needs to learn to step lightly. to better appreciate the china in the room, and learn from crashing into things, and to avoid having the storekeeper get pissed and start launching figurines.
Wow, you really made that analogy spring to life. :D I do think you're right...we do seem to react swiftly, and, partially as a result, harshly/crudely at times. I guess the reason I don't see us as being the same as some others is that I don't see us doing truly evil things. I see us making mistakes, but there's a difference.
Anyway, I do think this disaster will serve as a kick in the butt to remind us of what this country is all about, and what we can indeed lose if we don't stay awake from now on. Here's hoping Bush, and the rest of us, learn better from this.
So, does annyone think that the bombings would would lead up to the end of the world???
I certainly don't. I think this will make such a thing less likely...because I think this event will lead to a systematic destruction of terrorists...and a terrorist running around trying to escape death is a terrorist with a lot less time and brainspace to plot attacks on freedom.
If we can mow down a lot of the terrorists in this world, I think events like this will decrease, thus making the likelihood of some huge war less likely. Then again, I might be thinking wishfully.
These acts already brought about the end of the world. The world ended Tuesday September 11th, 2001 and a new world was born the same day. The world as we know it ended and a new one in which everything will be forever different was born out of that death. Nothing will ever be the same, and in that sense the world already ended.
DeSeRt RaT UK
09-16-01, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
I certainly don't. I think this will make such a thing less likely...because I think this event will lead to a systematic destruction of terrorists...and a terrorist running around trying to escape death is a terrorist with a lot less time and brainspace to plot attacks on freedom.
Do you think the terrorists are going to sit and taking a bombing from your planes? Cause not they will hit you where it hurts. They may not be able to fight your army but they already proved themselves to be well trained and organised.
I didn't say anything about a bombing. :)
a war has already been proclaimed and this may lead up to world war 3. it is terrible what has happened though we must live each day to the fullest.
No ones going to war anytime soon because theres no one to go to war with.
Well, it's a more figurative war. Yes, there is a war coming, but no, it's not really against a specific country, unless someplace like Afghanistan is helping someone like Bin Laden out knowingly.
Originally posted by OG-
No ones going to war anytime soon because theres no one to go to war with.
I don't know where you've been but WE HAVE declared war when necessary and however necessary. Bin Laden or whatever the heck the a**hole's name is deserves to go to hell and we will fight him or whomever are the cowardly terrorists in this horrifific event. I'm sorry OG but if you think this is just a simple terrorist bombing and it will be forgotton you are totally wrong. This is the start of something major in the world. A crisis noone will ever forget.
Pigsnie
09-16-01, 07:14 PM
A war is certainly coming, but it will not be what Americans expect. No more easy Gulf Scudding, sorry. It will be a very long war, 3 years is a conservative estimate. The first phase has already started, as military materiel is currently being airlifted to the Punjab region of Pakistan. From there, the US will launch attacks on the Afghan cities of Galdek & Medan, as well as Kabul & Kalalabad, Afghanistan's principal cities. According to sources here, the US is also going to attack Iraq, and Israel, it seems, is already attempting to move its armed forces into Turkey. British forces are also on the move, I believe, towards Oman.
Originally posted by jrs1013
I'm sorry OG but if you think this is just a simple terrorist bombing and it will be forgotton you are totally wrong. This is the start of something major in the world. A crisis noone will ever forget.
I don't think that, and if you had read my post a few posts back you wouldn't think that I thought that either.
I don't think anyone has really been reading my posts on this thread. I've said multiple times this is something big, and that it is the start of something even bigger. I've posted links where people involved with what happened on Tuesday had conversations with many other people saying this was just the begining and next they'd be punishing other countries as well. The US isn't the only country these terrorists have a problem with. They have a problem with any country that allows its citizens to sin without repent, which is almost every country in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, North America and of course Australia.
But I don't think the US is going to war. Not a World War at least. Call it a war against terrorism if you will, but a World War? I wouldn't think so. Maybe you could call it that because it will happening on the other side of the world.
The US simply can't go to war because they don't know who to go to war with. I have no doubt in my mind that many of Bin Laden's followers aren't already living in the United States. I have no doubt in my mind that they aren't living in many nations all over the world. Since I believe this to be the case, then the US can not declare war on all of those countries unknowingly harboring those criminals.
Yes the US will do whatever it deems necessary to whomever it deems responisble or accountable, but I wouldn't call it a war. Maybe I'm just naive like that.
Also when I said "anytime soon" earlier, I ment it to mean within a month.
I think we can call it a war...just a less than traditional war. And I think Pigsnie is right: this will likely still be going on by the time Bush's term has ended.
Sir Toose
09-18-01, 01:53 PM
A letter I got in e-mail today....
Dan,
Just I got so worried about too much WAR/MACHO talks on radio/TV/street, I
got
this email from an Indonesian showing another important view. I think we
should
use more brain than gut or muscle handling it. Or, just imagine what if
the 19
bad guys didn't use airplane bombs, but released poison gas at different
spots
in New York ???
> Thanks to Fred Hellerman for this item
>
> A different take on things...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RONNIE GILBERT"
[email protected]
> rongil@ mindspring.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001
>
> Dear Friends,
> The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an
> Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I
know
> in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. Here is
his
> take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.
> Gary T.
>
> * * * * I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back
to
> the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this
would
> mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this
> atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
else
> can we do?"
>
> Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the
belly
> to do what must be done."
>
> And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am
> from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never
> lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will
> listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
>
> I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no
doubt in
> my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.
I
> agree that something must be done about those monsters.
>
> But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
> government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics
who
> took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
plan.
> When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think
Hitler.
> And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the
> concentration camps."
>
> It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
atrocity.
> They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if
someone
> would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rat's nest of
> international thugs holed up in their country.
>
> Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
> answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A
few
> years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled
> orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
>
> There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
widows
> alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms
were
> all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the
Afghan
> people have not overthrown the Taliban.
>
> We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
> Age.Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.
>
> Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?
> Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their
> hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine
> and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
>
> New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at
least
> get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban
eat,
> only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe
> the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too
> fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and
dropping
> bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this
> horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the
> Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this
time
>
> So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true
> fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with
> ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to
be
> done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as
> needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing
innocent
> people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the
table
> is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die
fighting
> their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout.
>
> It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to
Afghanistan,
> we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The
> conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim
nationsjust
> stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war
between
> Islam and the West.
>
> And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.
> That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right
> there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem
> ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and
the
> West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in
those
> lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even
better
> from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West
> would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and
> millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?
>
> Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
>
> Tamim Ansary
spudracer
09-18-01, 01:57 PM
WOW...that's a really different look at things. WOW...
PigsnieLite
09-19-01, 02:29 PM
Just saw this on the telly, the US wont speak to the Taliban after the Taliban says they want a meeting. I think this is wrong. The US doesnt seem to want to make a distintion between the goverment of Afghan & the poor sad Afghan people. (Pigsnie just gave me a book on the way they live, they have almost nothing, only the Koran.) I guess the US just wants to go BOMBS AWAY, no matter if they have Bin Laden or not.
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
Just saw this on the telly, the US wont speak to the Taliban after the Taliban says they want a meeting. I think this is wrong. The US doesnt seem to want to make a distintion between the goverment of Afghan & the poor sad Afghan people. (Pigsnie just gave me a book on the way they live, they have almost nothing, only the Koran.) I guess the US just wants to go BOMBS AWAY, no matter if they have Bin Laden or not.
Where did you hear this? I haven't heard any such thing. And yes, we do make a distinction...I don't know where you're getting that from. The distinction we are not making is between people who support the terrorists, or (MAYBE!) those who sit idly by next door, knowing what's going on without care.
I don't think any difference should be made in the former case. If someone funded these terrorists, they are no better than those who flew that plane personally into the WTC. The latter is different, however. And yes, they are poor...probably because of their funky government.
PigsnieLite
09-19-01, 03:01 PM
Pigsnie says the problem with Afghan is the terrorists do not live in military bases, this is a dumb idea the US spreads around. Most of the terrorists in Afghan live in villages all over, so to kill them, youd have to kill the whole village too. Nice. And I saw the US rejection of taliban talks on the BBC. But Pigsnie says you should check NY times website. The storys there.
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
Pigsnie says the problem with Afghan is the terrorists do not live in military bases, this is a dumb idea the US spreads around. Most of the terrorists in Afghan live in villages all over, so to kill them, youd have to kill the whole village too. Nice. And I saw the US rejection of taliban talks on the BBC. But Pigsnie says you should check NY times website. The storys there.
Who in the US spreads it around? And I don't see why you're assuming a bomb is the only way to kill a terrorist.
PigsnieLite
09-19-01, 03:12 PM
The US govt of course! Theyre always talkin about trainin camps, terrorist bases, etc.
And have you checked out the NY times yet? huhh? As for a bomb bein the only way to kill a terrorist, ummmm, maybe the US army will just charge into the village, ask who the terrorists are & then shoot them? How do they sort the bad guys from the good guys if they all live together?
[Edited by PigsnieLite on 09-19-2001]
Sir Toose
09-19-01, 03:15 PM
I doubt we'll see bombs. I think we'll see ground troops. I heard they already deployed a unit of 15000. Also the US has a special ops unit that has been training in the region for 2 years. They have been studying and doing drills on the terrain in preparation of... well... this.
PLite I think people understand that we have no war with the people over there, hell they're probably on our side. The Taliban is not the recognized government of Afghanistan. They are a group of rogues that overthrew the government. I'm sure the people would like their land back sans the presence of Mr. Bin Laden.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have. Quit being a smart-a** :)
I would say several things to it:
Firstly, notice this quote: It was unclear whether the Taliban's offer to talk was genuine or merely a rhetorical stall for time. That's worth noting. Let's not ASSUME that the Taliban, hardly known for being a kindly, free people, are genuine here.
Secondly, you and I do not know what is truly going on. I seriously doubt that things are as they appear to be. Bush and the US Government likely know 10 times what we do, so it'd be a bit foolish to assume that we know what's going on, and that this is ALL there is to this story.
Thirdly, as Toose said, they are not really a normal government group here. What kind of reputation do they have? Do we have any good reason to trust them and meet with them?
Now, I'll ask again: why would you assume that a bomb is the only weapon that can be used to kill a terrorist?
As for the US Government: I'm not hearing it. Keep in mind that if Afghanistan's government, or any other government, has assisted in the execution of this act, they'll be attacked as well, most likely. Could it be that THAT is what they mean when they talk about military bases? Are you, perhaps, taking something out of context here?
PigsnieLite
09-19-01, 04:14 PM
Even if the US doesnt trust the Taliban, I think the US should still meet with them. Its diplomacy, people should talk. Even if the US thinks the Taliban are stalling, they should hear all sides. Yeah, I know the US doesnt feel diplomatic right now but maybe they should listen a bit before the shootin starts and things get much much worse.
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
Even if the US doesnt trust the Taliban, I think the US should still meet with them. Its diplomacy, people should talk. Even if the US thinks the Taliban are stalling, they should hear all sides. Yeah, I know the US doesnt feel diplomatic right now but maybe they should listen a bit before the shootin starts and things get much much worse.
I'll repeat myself, then. :) If we do think they're stalling, then no, we shouldn't meet with them. And, as I've already said, you and I probably don't know the half of this. For all you know, they already know what to expect. I also don't appreciate the constant little jabs about not knowing what's going on or shooting around and such.
And, as Toose pointed out, these people are not necessarily the best ones to be talking to right now. I just saw Bush on TV with a politician from Russia...maybe that's a better use of time. Maybe not...but you and I don't really know.
Thid time: why would you assume that a bomb is the only weapon that can be used to kill a terrorist?
spudracer
09-19-01, 04:28 PM
I found another Nostradamus prediction:
Out of the country of greater Arabia shall be born a strong master..This King wil lenter Europe wearing a blue turban..he will be the terror of mankind. It goes on to say how the Middle East will declare war on the New City and how US will resond immeadiatly.
Now some of this is true to a point, but some of it is kinda mish mash and all that. Thought it would be a little interesting.
How can it go on to say that? He can't mention the US...it wasn't around. Anyway, I think Nosty is full of it. :) That other prediction ended up being partially written by some college student anyway. I'm doing paying attention to that stuff, assuming I can help it. Oh, and in case you're wondering, "Hister" was referring to a river...it's the ancient name for the Danube...he wasn't talkin' about Adolph. :)
PigsnieLite
09-19-01, 04:34 PM
So tell me TWT, what is the best weapon with which to kill a terrorist since youre so insistent? Toose says the US is not gonna bomb Afghan but well see.
Yup, and maybe Bush will get a lesson from the Russians, I mean these are the same super smart dudes who couldnt beat the Afghan rebels for 10 years, right?
Hay, hello Spuds! Whats the verse youre talkin about? I wonder if Bin Laden wears a blue turban.
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
So tell me TWT, what is the best weapon with which to kill a terrorist since youre so insistent? Toose says the US is not gonna bomb Afghan but well see.
Yup, and maybe Bush will get a lesson from the Russians, I mean these are the same super smart dudes who couldnt beat the Afghan rebels for 10 years, right?
Every country has value in it's resources. They were talking about using some intelligence gathered by the Russian government, I believe.
Anyway, you dodged my question. :) Why did you make that assumption? What is it that made you think that a bomb was the only way? FYI: I was so "insistent" because I got no answer to it at all...plus you insisted on saying "Did you read the NY times article? Hmmmmm?" -- so, I thought it to be poetic justice to show you that you, too, are guilty of not addressing every point put in front of you right away. :)
How should we kill them? Well, there's always a GUN. I think we could definintely assassinate many of these terrorists...especially consider we've got several powerful nations on our side here, and all of NATO ready to back us up in our retaliation/war effort.
spudracer
09-19-01, 04:38 PM
PLite...he wears a turban, but I dont think its blue. The attack from the Middle East on the New City seems to be the only thing in that that is pretty much right on.
PigsnieLite
09-19-01, 04:56 PM
OK TWT if the US uses GUNS (becuz apparently the US isnt going to use BOMBS), how does the US know which guy to shoot? I mean I ASSUME these terrorists dont put name cards on their turbans saying they are Bin Laden supporters. The terrorists & the civilians all live in the same lousy villages. How is the US goin to sort out the good guys from the bad guys? Hmmmmmmmm?
And yeah, youre beginnin to piss me off again TWT :) but then I can just ignore you later, hahaha!
Spuds, tell me the verse though. Im intrested. Oh & I have to apologize for ruinin your name becuz now people call you Spud instead of speed. :bawl:
Originally posted by PigsnieLite
OK TWT if the US uses GUNS (becuz apparently the US isnt going to use BOMBS), how does the US know which guy to shoot? I mean I ASSUME these terrorists dont put name cards on their turbans saying they are Bin Laden supporters. The terrorists & the civilians all live in the same lousy villages. How is the US goin to sort out the good guys from the bad guys? Hmmmmmmmm?
And yeah, youre beginnin to piss me off again TWT :) but then I can just ignore you later, hahaha!
Me piss you off? Man, those "Hmmmms" annoy me to no end. :)
I'll respond with several things:
1 -- We could possible still use some kind of airstrike. This is the US Air Force we're talking about...these hits can get fairly precise, you know.
2 -- How will we know how to shoot? Uh, we've got the intelligence of several of the most powerful countries in the world...I think we can manage to identify a few criminals.
3 -- Would bombing be out of line, anywya? Afghanistan has refused to hand Bin Laden over...how do you justify that? The man is a complete criminal, and a murderer. He's making this entire world worse each and every day he's alive, IMO.
PigsnieLite
09-19-01, 05:17 PM
well you can identify some but you cant identify ALL! I bet there are less than 50 identified terrorists on the lists, lets face it no one knows who 90% of these guys are so who do you shoot then?
Hahah, I know it annoys you TWT so Ill keep doin it hmmm hmmmm hmmmmm ..
No one is crazy enough to claim we can find them all...but rest assured, the ones we have clearly identified will be attacked. I don't think Bush, or anyone else, is claiming that we'll wipe out the terrorist population...but that doesn't mean we can't start thinning out their nummbers. If we keep a full court press going for the next couple years, I have to believe it will be difficult for a fair amount of them to stay hidden.
spudracer
09-19-01, 07:59 PM
A lot of Bin Laden supporters wear the signature turban, but it's hard to pick them out in a crowd.
I wrote something down so others could read it. If we feel that taking innocent life to avenge innocent life is the thing to do then I feel sorry for those people.
The only way we can successfully, if you want to call it that, get these people we need to draw them out and execute them. If you justify dropping bombs on a country that doesnt fully support the actions of last Tuesday then it isn't right to do so. If we do just drop bombs it will be no better than them running planes into two 110 story buildings and killing thousands. We will be as cowardly as they were.
TobyDammit
09-19-01, 09:45 PM
TWT, you were saying that the Americans can bomb quite accurately. That is untrue. Precision bombing is a myth, it just doesn't work. Innocent people will die if America tries that.
A few years back, America did bomb an Afgan terriost camp. It was to no avail.
Originally posted by TobyDammit
TWT, you were saying that the Americans can bomb quite accurately. That is untrue. Precision bombing is a myth, it just doesn't work. Innocent people will die if America tries that.
A few years back, America did bomb an Afgan terriost camp. It was to no avail.
Well, I guess it depends on how precise precision bombing has to be to deserve that namesake. You could be right about some innocent people dying as a result -- I admit I can't say that they won't for sure.
But, honestly: what are we to do here? Our governments represent us on the world's stage. If the US government started messing around with Russia, would Russia just take out the specific people who were bothering them, or would they just bomb us generically? The answer is rhetorical.
Now, that doesn't mean it's a good idea, but if Afghanistan's government is refusing to turn Bin Laden over, what are we supposed to do?
Anyway, personally, I think a targetted assassination campaign would be best, but I DO see the argument for a bomb...if only because of Afghanistan's refusal. IMO, that's the only reason it would even be an issue.
I'm completely on PLite's side. Just thought I'd pipe in.
Originally posted by Steve N.
I'm completely on PLite's side. Just thought I'd pipe in.
So you think that we should meet with the Taliban, that we're incapable of assassinating these terrorists, and that it should be socially acceptable to wear your underwear on the outside of your pants? :D
Yes, Yes, and most definitely YES!
Originally posted by Steve N.
Yes, Yes, and most definitely YES!
LOL on that last one. :) But seriously: you think Britain, America, and the countries of NATO are incapable of tracking down and assassinating some of the more prolific terrorists out there? I mean, these are basically the most advanced organizations in the world here.
Sir Toose
09-20-01, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
Now, that doesn't mean it's a good idea, but if Afghanistan's government is refusing to turn Bin Laden over, what are we supposed to do?
I don't think Afghanistan really has a government. They have the Taliban (dictatorship) which is controlled (apparently) by Bin Laden. I don't think the regular Joe's of Afghanistan really support this group but since they (Taliban) overthrew the government the people don't really have the power to fight them.
From what I've read no one recognizes the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan except the Pakistani's, the Saudi's and one other country who I disremember at this moment. This is why Bush is refusing to talk to them... it's sort of like giving an edge to the bully. By not talking to the Taliban Bush is sending them a message that they are unimportant.
IMHO the war effort needs to be directed at the Taliban specifically and not the people of Afghanistan.
Sir Toose
09-20-01, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by TobyDammit
TWT, you were saying that the Americans can bomb quite accurately. That is untrue. Precision bombing is a myth, it just doesn't work.
Actually there is some truth in it. 3 years ago the CIA had an exact location on Bin Laden by pinpointing his cell phone by satellite. The technology exists and, rumor has it, that we had a missle locked on to the coordinates of that phone. The target could be tracked until said is in a remote location (which is 90% of Afghanistan) and taken out then. No guarantees that he wouldn't be standing next to a farmer or something but it would minimize damage.
Apparently we did not fire on Bin Laden at that time because our govt. decided it was not prudent to our interests at that moment.
Bin Laden got wind that this could be done and ditched all of his cell phones.
PigsnieLite
09-21-01, 07:02 PM
Has the US telly been showin the huge huge riots in Pakistan? Just wonderin. Its all over our telly but Pigsnie says US TV probably wont show much becuz the US govt has an intrest in not showin US opposition of any kind. (YEAH, Pigsnie actually said my last sentence. I tape recorded it so I would get it right, hahaha! :p)
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000075191sep19.story
Great article.
Nope, haven't seen that footage PLite. It's surprising how much the US shelters its media.
Shelters it's media? What? I dunno about Pigsnie, PLite, and OG, but from what I've seen, our country is sickingly critical of our government most of the time. They publicize almost anything they can get their hands on.
PigsnieLite
09-23-01, 02:56 PM
Well US media isnt critical now! Americans seems to pretty much want WAR & dam the consequentials!!
BTW, did psychics predict that World war 3 would happen at this time? Im tryin to remember all the prophecy shows I was watchin on New Years 2000 & I coulda sworn quite a few of them mention world war 3 very soon. LIKE NOW!!! Scary.
Ps. Interestin. In Brit discussion boards (I check 3), 90% say Britain should stay out of the fightin & let the US go it alone.
What Brit discussion board is that? Not that it matters, but I doubt the validity of those numbers across the entire population. And no, Nostradumbass did not predict WWIII. :) Look man, say what you want, but the US media is constantly criticizing our government and our country...CONSTANTLY.
And please do not generalize about Americans. That's got to be the third or fourth time you've said something about us (or Bush) rushing into war or violence. Nothing personal, but that's just not true. However, it's the label everyone opposed to military action likes to use: America is a big dumb animal attacking something mindlessly. I've heard it a thousand times since the attack.
Anyway, this is probably pointless, because if you've said this same thing twice, and seem to have a habit of generalizing about what America is going to do, then I doubt you're likely to change your mind. I would ask you to, please, stop assuming things like that. You sure don't seem to like America much...which is fine. Like or dislike whoever you want, but please do not make biased accusations and criticisms based on that.
PigsnieLite
09-23-01, 03:25 PM
HELLO TWT, did I mention Nostradumbass at all? Why dont you stop assumin things? Nostradumbo isnt the only weirdo 300 year old psychic around you know! Sheesh!
And what do you mean Im generalizin about the US rushin into war? THATS WHAT I REALLY THINK! It is my opinion that the US is rushin into war! Is there somethin wrong with statin my opinion? How do you know where my info is coming from? How do you know my info is wrong?? Maybe I am really a cute British squittel spying on Tony Blair from a tree outside his office, hahaha! :laugh: And no, I dont like the US government now but I do like Americans (except the racists, I HATE RACISTS! PTAH! Phtooey!)
PigsnieLite
09-23-01, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
From what I've seen, our country is sickingly critical of our government most of the time. They publicize almost anything they can get their hands on ...
Ps. If the US media was constantly criticizin the government, isnt that a good sign? It means you live in a democracy whit freedom of expression & freedom of the press. You should be happy TWT. [PLite sniffs & starts to sing GOD Save the Queen!]
Uh, there aren't many famous prognosticators around PLite. Anyway, that's the one almost everyone is talking about. Thought you might be interested in it.
And what do you mean Im generalizin about the US rushin into war? THATS WHAT I REALLY THINK! It is my opinion that the US is rushin into war! Is there somethin wrong with statin my opinion?
Uh, that's not what you said. You said "Americans" and "dam the consequences." I'm an American, and I don't favor "rushing" into war despite what it might cause. So yeah, that was a generalization. You've done that a couple times, I think. Could be wrong, but I seem to remember a few other "the US does this" or "Americans do that" type of statements.
And no, I dont like the US government now but I do like Americans (except the racists, I HATE RACISTS! PTAH! Phtooey!)
Well, I love the US government, even if it is far too large. I wouldn't trade it for any other government.
Ps. If the US media was constantly criticizin the government, isnt that a good sign? It means you live in a democracy whit freedom of expression & freedom of the press. You should be happy TWT. [PLite sniffs & starts to sing GOD Save the Queen!]
Sometimes it's very good, yes. Sometimes it's annoying. I wouldn't stop them from doing that if given the choice, though. My basic point is that many people are taking shots at the US every day...a lot of them live here in the US, too! So say what you want, but we're not hiding the truth or anything out of self-interest.
Honestly, I truly believe you've got something against America. So be it. I care less every day, because I'm starting to realize how many people there are like that out there. It's very depressing. :( I'm mostly just saddened that, in a time of crises, people are taking shots at the US, talking about past mistakes (imagined or otherwise, not getting into that now), and insulting the US whenever they get a chance. It's amazing how many people have taken the opportunity to kick us while we're supposedly down. I don't think you'd want to hear some of the sick things I've heard people say about the US.
So, in short, I'm just tired of it. Maybe you have to live in America to understand it. You're insulting my homeland. I disagree with a LOT of stuff about Britain, but do you hear me insult them on it? No. The US takes a *lot* of crap from other countries. That's the way it is when you're successful: you're going to be hated. Oh well.
sunfrog
09-23-01, 04:46 PM
I don't think we're rushing. I have a short attention span. It's been almost two weeks now. I don't even think we're gonna bomb anybody anymore. It's taking too long. I think America did the right thing giving them a chance to turn over Laden first. That was nice.
PigsnieLite
09-23-01, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
Honestly, I truly believe you've got something against America. So be it. I care less every day, because I'm starting to realize how many people there are like that out there. It's very depressing. :( I'm mostly just saddened that, in a time of crises, people are taking shots at the US, talking about past mistakes (imagined or otherwise, not getting into that now), and insulting the US whenever they get a chance. It's amazing how many people have taken the opportunity to kick us while we're supposedly down. I don't think you'd want to hear some of the sick things I've heard people say about the US.
So, in short, I'm just tired of it. Maybe you have to live in America to understand it. You're insulting my homeland. I disagree with a LOT of stuff about Britain, but do you hear me insult them on it? No. The US takes a *lot* of crap from other countries. That's the way it is when you're successful: you're going to be hated. Oh well.
Well I am sorry if it seems to you that Im Anti american TWT, but the thing is I live with Pigsnie, who has a degree in History. So he knows lots of stuff & he explained to me why so much of the Mideast hate the US (a lot of it has to do with the Russian/Afghan war & the Gulf war), and why deep down, even much of Europe got nothing good to say. In fact, I felt really sorry for your US ambassador Philip Lader who was shouted down by an anti-american British audience 2 days after the bombing. Becuz He began to cry on the telly. That is SAD becuz we were rude. But I think you also have to understand WHY the US is hated so bitterly in spite of Americans good nature. There are reasons TWT & its not as simple as the US being rich & successful.
Anyhoo Im sorry if I upset you. Go ahead, criticize TOny Blair, its not like I give a s*** about him, LOLL. And yeah, the British haf done their share of killing while they were empire building, you can criticize that too, if you like. Im not blind about our sins. :(
HEY, my short attention span just kicked in, Sun .. Blurp!
PigsnieLite
09-23-01, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by sunfrog
PigsnieLite ate an acorn from the Glastonbury Oak and became a talking squittel!
Sun~
HAHAHA, you always put me in a good mood, Sun. :)
Well I am sorry if it seems to you that Im Anti american TWT, but the thing is I live with Pigsnie, who has a degree in History. So he knows lots of stuff & he explained to me why so much of the Mideast hate the US (a lot of it has to do with the Russian/Afghan war & the Gulf war), and why deep down, even much of Europe got nothing good to say.
I don't really care what Pigsnie has a degree in. My father constantly amazes me with his knowledge of economics and such, and he didn't really major in anything like that as far as I know. I know a lot about computers, but I don't have a degree in Computer Science.
My point is that for WHATEVER reason, you seem to have a gripe with us. And yes, what they did to that Ambassador was very disturbing. That's the stuff I'm talking about: America may or may not have made significant mistakes in the past. Right now I really don't care...that's the entire point! This is not crap that should be talked about now.
As for Britland (hehe, just kidding): yeah, you may not care if I do, but I care if you do. You seem to be kicking America while most people consider it to be down. Heck, it's not even like you're insulting it while it's up and healthy.
There are reasons TWT & its not as simple as the US being rich & successful.
Well, obviously...which is why I didn't list that as the only reason...but I did say that being successful means you might as well prepare to be hated. Some hate us because they hate our form of government...they hate capitalism. Some people are going to hate us no matter what.
I stand by my earlier analogy: as far as a lot of foreigners seem to be concerned, we're a big dumb ox...very strong, very aggressive, but stupid as hell, and therefore always rushing into things. I don't like that perception at all, and I completely disagree with it. Using force does not always indicate a lack of intelligence. In fact, I'd say there would be a lack of intelligence in a country that absolutely refused to use force. It' this "peace at all costs" mentality...it doesn't work.
You said "Americans seem to want war, and dam the consequences" -- well, I would agree with the first part...but why is wanting war ALWAYS bad? Sometimes war is completely necessary. America is here today because it went to war against your fine country (no sarcasm there, honest) PLite...and Scotland became free because William Wallace fought back, while in the process ensuring the death of thousands of soldiers. So, I guess I would say that:
1) Yeah, we want war, but don't assume that to be a bad idea.
2) Just because we want war, and we're sure of it, it doesn't mean we don't give a damn about the consequences.
I guess that's why I'm upset right now: we've got people shouting these things at the US, when we aid half these countries. We've got people who LIVE in the US, criticizing the US! I would take issue with a lot of these claims, to be honest with you, but even if they were true, now is still not the time, IMO.
Originally posted by TWTCommish
It's amazing how many people have taken the opportunity to kick us while we're supposedly down. I don't think you'd want to hear some of the sick things I've heard people say about the US.
It's not that people are trying to take shots at the US while its down, Chris, its that your just now hearing it. They've been saying this forever, your just now paying attention to it. Not to be rude, but your naive. Almost all Americans are naive. I'm naive. I'm naive towards everything else in the world, as you are Chris. We may not want to admit to it but we criticize other countries daily and don't realize it. It's called ethnocentrism, and it's all around us. It is what is making us naive. We think the US is the greatest place in the world, and most people in the US are just now realizing it. It's not that they haven't been saying it, its that your just now taking the time to hear it.
Think of it this way. Before September 11th, how much did you know about the Taliban? Or how much did you know about Bin Laden?? I bet you know a whole lot more now than you did two weeks ago. It's because now your hearing about it. It's not that it wasn't there before, its just that your now hearing it.
Also, I don't think Plite was making a generalization, it just happened to be that his opinion is generally the same as many others. I also agree with him. The US does rush into things. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but its true. I thought the US would be bombing, and I still think they will, just not right now. And I spoke to hundreds upon hundreds of people that night about everything that was happening, and it is sad to say that the minority of the speakers were not in favor of the US not bombing. Everyone wanted to bomb that night, everyone wanted vengeance. It was instinct to think so. The US, just like every other country, is full of a lot of dumb people. Alot.
Also, the US government doesn't censor the media, but the media censors what it puts out. I took a journalism class last year, and I learned alot about the media. You'd be surprised at the news we publish in comparison to the news in Libya. They cover completely different topics because the media thinks the public does not need to hear it, or does not want to hear it. In that sense the media is limited.
No no no, I'm not saying that people don't criticize the US during other times. They criticize the US day and night. It's completely non-stop. But now it's worse than ever. When I say "kick them while they're down," I'm talking about comments like "well, you deserved this" or "America brought it on itself." I've heard things like that. Things that basically say that that mass murder was poetic justice, and a good thing. That's the crap I'm talking about. Everyone is naive, but I'm not so naive as to think that most countries don't criticize the US all the time.
Re: Taliban/Bin Laden: well, hell yeah I know more now. Most people do, I'd say. That's partially because I'm a teenager, though. My dad, for example, didn't know a whole lot less about them beforehand, so I don't know if that has any bearing here.
The rush into things comment implies a lack of thinking. Doing something quickly, of make a firm, swift decision, is not by defintion "rushing into things." When you say something is rushing into something, it's nearly universally meant to imply that the situation hasn't been thought through properly.
Also, I don't think Plite was making a generalization, it just happened to be that his opinion is generally the same as many others.
See, that's what a generalization is all about: taking something that applies to SOME people (sometimes in the majority, sometimes not), and acting or speaking as if it applies to ALL. Generalizations are what have people beating up Arab cab drivers in NY.
And yeah, the US is full of dumb people...IN SOME WAYS. I know you don't think I'm dumb, but I'd probably get the crap kicked out of me on most standardized tests. The powers that be in America still know when to go to war, IMO. Sometimes, force is needed...anyone who denies that is being hopelessly idealistic, I think.
And yeah, the media does not report absolutely everything, but they have the freedom to, and as a result they are very critical of us as a country. We have freedoms that other countries do not. I'll bet the citizens of Cuba and China would love to have Freedom of the Press!
In short: people treat the US like crap, even if they live here, or if their country receives help from the US. We are constantly demonized for many unfair reasons, when I think we're a good country all around. Some think we're the devil anyway.
Aside from that, I don't think PLite is being fair in criticizing the American media: we beat the crap out of ourselves. I also don't think "rushing into things" is at all accurate.
I'll say it again, to try to drive it home: people are acting like the US is a big, dumb, angry ox that attacks on instinct alone, which I think is bull (pardon the pun).
Originally posted by TWTCommish
Aside from that, I don't think PLite is being fair in criticizing the American media: we beat the crap out of ourselves. I also don't think "rushing into things" is at all accurate.
When did Plite criticize the American media?? And what does the we beat the crap out of ourselves have to do with anything? Should we pride ourself for that?? Is that like saying we have such a good media its ok for us to kick us ourselves in the balls? I don't get it?
Also, the US does censor its media. You just don't hear about it because no one makes a big deal out of it. Ever hear of Schenck V. US? Schenck went around New York during 1919 spreading flyers that said dodge the draft, and the US locked him up. It presented Clear and Present Danger so the censored his medium. They do it all the time, you just don't hear about. The US constantly asks the media to not show certain clips, and the media does so because they don't want to be punished. Remember a few years ago when they had a tape of the aftermath of Columbine, the only reason the media didn't show it more than once is because the US government asked them not to, as it presented a clear and present danger within the US. During this time, they are not allowed to show certain footage because it invokes clear and present danger, which is why we aren't seeing the footage Plite mentioned.
Well, things like dodging the draft are, in my opinion, different. As for Columbine: did the government ask them not to, or tell them not to? There's a major difference there.
When did Plite criticize the American media?? And what does the we beat the crap out of ourselves have to do with anything? Should we pride ourself for that?? Is that like saying we have such a good media its ok for us to kick us ourselves in the balls? I don't get it?
He implied a dissatisfaction with the American media through his comments about not airing the riots, etc. And yeah, we should (sometimes) pride ourselves on our self-mutilation. :) The reason I mentioned it is to try to show that it's not as if our media is shielding us from the truth to keep people positive about the US: the media here beats up on our mistakes quite often. That's all I meant by it. I dunno if it's always good, but it's good that the media has the freedom to do that.
The gov asked them not to, which is the same thing as saying if you do you'll be punished.
How do you figure that? I mean, it's a strong hint, but would they have PUNISHED THEM? My dad sometimes tells me he really wants me to go somewhere with him, or do something, etc. Most of the time I do, because I want him to be happy, and it's easier for all involved that way...but sometimes I don't, and that means I have freedom, even if I might be pressured to do it because of his authority over me.
Anyway, like I said, there are exceptions, even if they really were forbidden from showing that footage. The basic point is that the US media is not biased towards the US, and not trying to make the US good...that's the point I've been trying to make in response to PLite's comment about not airing riot footage. That implies that we only let American citizens see things that are positive towards the US, or, at least, not negative, which I don't believe is true.
sunfrog
09-24-01, 09:00 PM
Here is why our media sucks...by me. :)
Over the last few years Nielsen ratings for news shows have been steadily dropping so they needed to spice things up. That lead to the invention of shock media aka Bill O'Reilly. His main goal is to stir up controversy ala the early Jerry Springer shows. 'member when Jerry had the KKK on there almost every week 'cause it got them the most emails and phone calls etc? Well Americans love scandal so ol' Bill's show became popular and respectable news shows decided to start doing the same. Now we get news reports then guys coming on afterwards giving THEIR OPINIONS on what the news story was all about and what it means. It's horrible. News should be reporting not reporting then giving opinions. The respectable news shows try to give both sides of the argument but I say they shouldn't even have arguments at all. The news should be like the local news. Just the facts and I can decide for myself what it means. To make things worse, we have disgusting spin doctors who try, and often succeed, to manipulate the news media. And the news men themselves who are also trying to manipulate the media. (like Bill) Now the news shows will tell you they are reporting things we should know so we won't be innocent and easily manipulated. I think that's partially true but I don't think it should be PART OF the news show. Those OPINIONS should be in a tv show all of their own, not integrated into the news itself.
I'm not yelling btw, I'm just using caps for emphasis.
We are the news!
Now let's have a little analogy. On this board we argue politics all the time. Suppose someone gets all their news from MovieForums. What they believe to be the news will depend on whichever side puts up the best argument. This is what happens in America everyday. Whichever side the news show represents best will be what people believe. This is not news. This is opinions. This debate stuff should be separate from the news, in it's own show not part of the news which people trust and believe. But of course there's the Nielsen ratings. And if people tune in everyday to see "newscasters" fight that's good for ratings, which sells commercials, which makes the company money.
On a side note. The media does censor stuff. Remember the Gulf War when they said only like 1 American died. How can we kill 100,000 and only lose one person? Pleease. How long did it take for us to find out how many Americans really died? And some from friendly fire!
Addressing your last statement first, that can be a mistake, and not censorship. :) And dude, for goodness' sake, either stop dissin' O'Reilly, or give me some reasons why he's as bad as you say he is. So far it's just been the OPINIONS that you just said you disliked. :D
I think commentary and such is a great idea. Make up our own minds? Well, yeah, but we can't think of all kinds of arguments in our heads, and we'd all be pretty foolish to assume we can make the case better than most of the analysts and experts on TV. I dunno about you, but I LOVE the fact that I can hear the opinions of many esteemed experts easily on the news. It's eductional.
And yes, the side that makes its case best is going to be believed more often: since when is this a bad thing? Assuming both sides do their homework, and that neither is incompetent, it'll be pretty hard for the guy in the right to lose decisively. At least in a debate you hear both sides of an argument from people who (usually) study it for a living.
Personally I wouldn't like robotic news. And no, I don't think today's commentators are just shocking people. O'Reilly is a bit over the top, but that's not what he relies on, IMO. I dunno if you saw his debate with James Carville, but he was amazing: clear, concise, and he made his point very well. He was not relying on shock, and yet he made his case with amazing composure.
Originally posted by TWTCommish
How do you figure that? I mean, it's a strong hint, but would they have PUNISHED THEM? My dad sometimes tells me he really wants me to go somewhere with him, or do something, etc. Most of the time I do, because I want him to be happy, and it's easier for all involved that way...but sometimes I don't, and that means I have freedom, even if I might be pressured to do it because of his authority over me.
They would have been punished. Schenck was first given a hint to not do it, he did it anyway and then the US put him in jail and fined him thousands of dollars. If they hadn't, the same would have happened to them. Maybe not being thrown into jail, but they'd of been fined.
sunfrog
09-24-01, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by TWTCommish
And dude, for goodness' sake, either stop dissin' O'Reilly, or give me some reasons why he's as bad as you say he is.
Because he invented the whole thing of putting opinions in the news. And because he sits behind a desk. That makes him look like someone people should believe. He's the anti-christ. I must save you. :)
You can have opinions is you want but I think they should be in a different show, like after the news. See, even you said you wouldn't want a bland news show. That's how their ratings go up. Heck, I wish we had topless newscasters like in other countries, but that wouldn't be the news. Unless they kept their opinions out of it. :D
I'll think of some more stuff the news censored when I get back, gotta go to the store.
Have fun at the store sunfrog. Pick me up some orange juice!:p
He didn't invent that. That's as old as dust, man. :) So let me recap, though: your reason for hating him is that he (supposedly) invented the concept of opinions mixed with news, and because he sits behind a desk? :)
And yeah, I want HUMANS reporting the news...humans who are free to express their own feelings on things. The two are usually pretty seperate you know. The normal news on Fox News, for example, makes it obvious when an editorial-type segment is coming up, because they usually introduce their commentators.
Overall, you CANNOT, realistically, avoid all emotion in news. If you did, you wouldn't be able to have any guests on. You couldn't have an economist on to tell you WHY the stock market has done this or that, because they wouldn't be able to tell you why it happened without injecting some of their opinions into it.
Originally posted by OG-
They would have been punished. Schenck was first given a hint to not do it, he did it anyway and then the US put him in jail and fined him thousands of dollars. If they hadn't, the same would have happened to them. Maybe not being thrown into jail, but they'd of been fined.
Well, I only have your word here, but I'll take it anyway, and concede that point...partially because it doesn't apply to my argument. :) Mwahahaha, I shall never give in. :D
PigsnieLite
09-24-01, 09:49 PM
Was that Sun? He sounded almost human. :bawl:
sunfrog
09-24-01, 11:35 PM
Exactly. If he didn't have a desk I wouldn't hate him so much. I don't want guests on. People see these guys behind desks saying this and that is true then they believe it. I don't need commentaries. O'Reilly is worst 'cause he doesn't present both sides he presents HIS side. Then he'll have someone opposite on and blast him just so he can say he had both sides on.
Yes you can have news without commentaries. Watch your local news tonight. The one from your hometown. They don't say
"Two cars crashed today. Brent why do you think that is?"
Brent: "Because Mercedes suck!"
And here's Tony with an opposing view.
Tony: "It wasn't the Mercedes fault it was the BMW. BMWs suck!"
The local news is still impartial the way news should be. Also, it's not just the guest coming on, that's just the tip of the iceberg. That started everything. Now you have "newscasters" reporting rumors. Sometimes they say they're rumors sometimes they don't. Like when O'Reilly reported Clinton had subscriptions to 7 porno mags and Hillary was pissed when she found out. That didn't happen. That's stupid. Like someone wouldn't notice if the President was getting 7 porno mags a month. Lol. Here's your mail Mr President, some spam, a letter from Ed McMahon and your 7 porno mags. LOL!
Watch some of the stupid things they say. Like POSSIBLY or WE THINK then they do a fake report to get ratings and it gets picked up by other news companies and after a while people think it's the truth. Of course when the real truth comes out they report that and everybody forgets the stupid things they said before that.
Except me. I don't forget. YOU HEAR ME O'REILLY? I DON'T FORGET!
Lol! J/k :D
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.