Top 5 Westerns

Big Jake is where they kidnap Wayne's grandson. I thought Boone was oustanding in the comedic TV movie film noir Goodnight My Love (1972) as the most cynical and slowest moving gumshoe of them all.

Well it wasn't meant as an insult.
I meant the starched white shirt squared jawed heroes, white hats/black hats, squeaky clean and dustless towns, buggy rides, starry-eyed kids, picnics under the tree types. Mainly the sort of Westerns until the late 50's (the odd films aside of course, like the Mann/Stewart films and some Wayne movies).

Oh, I never took it as an insult (to whom?); I really wasn't sure what you meant by clean westerns. But I see what you mean now, based on the info above. More like Roy and Gene and the singing cowboys (although some of the Gene Autry modern westerns had touches of reality around the edges. Dark Command, with the unlikely star line up of John Wayne, Roy Rogers and Walter Pidgeon is an interesting "clean western," however.

Was Alan Ladd too clean and square-jawed in Shane? Was Brandon De Wilde a starry-eyed kid? Yeah, I could see someone might argue that. What I remember from that film is that all the farmers and families are ragged and worn out, especially the women who often are dressed in men's hats, coats, and shoes--much like those in photos of farmers from the Civil War through the Dust Bowl. Certainly the town wasn't dustless--on the film site they watered down the streets until it was hard to move down them. And like I said, I especially enjoyed the fights where some guy gets busted in the nose and goes flying and then gets up, wipes away the blood, and comes back.

Reminded me of my youth--learned early that if you're going to fight, try to get in the first blow and put it in the nose as hard as you can. Lots of nerves and blood vessels in the nose close to the skin and bone and cartilage to smash it against and make it bleed. Besides, it hurts like hell. Most people don't want to fight anymore after a punch in the nose--it hurts and makes a mess and no one wants to see his own blood. Thing is, if you pop an ol' boy in the nose, and he gets up, wipes away the blood and comes back at you, then you've got yourself a real fight! Maybe more than you can handle.

1. Unforgiven
2. Outlaw Josey Wales
3. Open Range
4. Tombstone
5. Shane

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Having read some of the last couple of pages, I'm really under the impression that certain members haven't seen enough westerns, especially early westerns. Early westerns were the antithesis of "clean", and even though this has nothing to do with Randolph Scott, if you think his westerns are somehow "clean" you have a flippin' hole in your head. Don't ask me; just check out Budd Boetticher. As far as EARLY westerns, has anyone besides me seen the awesome Hell's Heroes?



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It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. - John Wooden
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markf,

I've seen early westerns when I was much younger, but I can't remember the names of them. I think I saw "The Ballad of Cable Hogue" once. I liked it. The Magnificent 7 is okay, but overrated. High Noon seems dated. I remember watching a lesser known western when I was younger and one of the villains had a railroad tie for an arm stump.

I'm not a big fan of either Good Bad, and the Ugly or Once Upon A Time in the West. I thought both of them were boring, too long, and generally poorly edited.

Oh, I forgot this one!!!! A great little movie no one seems to know about: Pharaoh's Army (takes place during civil war).

Also The Beguiled (an Eastwood western like no other).

“I don’t like quitters, especially when they don’t finish what they started.” John Wayne, Red River.
Wow. who writes this stuff?

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R.I.P.

Outlaw Josey Wales is one of my all time favs!

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Bleacheddecay

I just gotta ask: Why does High Noon seem dated to you? Aren't Westerns by their very nature "dated" since they depict an earlier time? And what makes High Noon seem more dated than other Westerns?

I adore the hole in my head. It lets the smugness out.


Another one I think I missed "The White Buffalo"

A very clever mixture of real life and fantasy with a lovely Bronson performance, a fun title creature, some chaotic bloodshed, well staged action, thoughtful deliberation, great scenery, high adventure and mature drama.

A bizarre mix that works perfectly and it deserves more of a profile.

I like the last post. There is undoubtedly a crapload of smugness in this thread, but as long as people see good movies because of the recommendations, I'm happy.

rufnek said: Hmmm, that's a good question. I'm not sure. It's not so much the contextual nature of the film since, as you said, westerns are by nature period pieces and are dated. But it's the tone of the film that seems dated. It's very stiff and old-fashioned and the writing is a little easy. It's unambiguous.

By contrast, for two films that are contemporaries, Shane seems more complex and ambiguous.

I must clear up what I mean by 'clean cut' i fear.

Again, it was not a criticism of the films, just the best way I could think of to describe the sort of Western (the odd title aside) I don't really go for.

Look at almsot any Western from the 30's to the 50's and we have, perfectly tailored clothes (even sod farmer clothes look like they came from 'Farmers R us'), nicely pressed and washed.
Almost no one sweated, certainly no heroes, in a close-up, people shaved and groomed themselves to perfection.
There is also a deadly amount of pastel shades! Even in Black and White yo just KNEW they were pastel!
Towns were a dustless as possible, no mud allowed unless it was a 'comedy mud puddle for the throwing in of', buildings looked like they had been built by a team of craftsmen with a few million to spend ...which of course they actually were.

Nasty things happened, but nothing too nasty. And if it was very nasty it happened off plot (let alone off screen).
You won't find a scene (but please...i am happy to be educated on this so feel free to) like in "For A Few Dollars More" where a guy is forced onto his knees as his crying wife and child are dragged outside to be shot. And they are shot.

Heroes may sometimes be struggling with their past and have psychological barriers to break down (especially in the Mann/Stewart films) but they are a far cry from the driven ruthlessness of a 'Man with no Name'.

As such...although it is perfectly fine to be this way and such 'classic' Westerns are an art form in themselves and stupendously popular and often cover that essential (hell I grew up seeing them) family market...I think 'clean' is the best way to describe them.

Take a close-up in a Leone film and compare that face with to a 30-50's Western.
Grime, sweat, stubble, lank hair, dirty creased collars and battered dusty hats.

Compare a small town, its streets and it's people in something like "McCabe and Mrs Miller" or "The Great Silence" to 'clean'/classic Western towns like in "Shane". Hell NO WAY would a town like the one in "The Big Silence" ever be allowed on screen then.

To me 'Classic' Westerns (If that is a better description) are almost a different sub-genre of Western. A visually, socially and psychologically different beast from what started to come in the 60's through the 70's.

If we take (however clumsy, as "The Man who Shot Liberty Valance" starts to show us some of these changes to come) "The Wild Bunch" is the jump line...I hope you can see what I mean.
And not just in it's use of bloodshed and violence...but in what it gives us in totality and how it shows it all to us. From the towns, to the citizens, to the heroes (where of course we don't actually have any real heroes...telling in itself?)

Some not so "Clean Westerns"

The Searchers (1956)
Ethan Edwards is a racist, homicidal lunatic.

Stagecoach (1939)
The prostitue and the the escaped convict ultimately ride off in the moonlight.

My Darling Clementine (1949)
Victor Mature's Doc Holiday has a serious death wish.

Red River (1948)
Mutiny on the Bounty hits the plains - a classic except for the ending.

The Gunfighter (1950)
Johnny Ringo looks back on his life with regret.

Fort Apache (1948)
John Ford's first look at "printing the legend" and the manipulation of American history. Bright and colorful but not what I would call clean.

Winchester '73 (1950)
Dark Anthony Mann movie with James Stewart trying to hunt down and kill his brother, who killed his father.

The Ox-Bow Incident (1943)
Classic tale of mob rule gone wrong.

Pursued (1947)
Robert Mitchum's family was massacred when he was small and now they are out to get him.

The Naked Spur (1953)
Another dark Mann/Stewart movie

The Hanging Tree (1959)
A great movie with a shockingly dark ending.

Man of the West (1958)
Anthony Mann's last Western may be his darkest.

Budd Boetticher's Ranown Cycle
Seven Men From Now (1956)
Ride Lonesome (1959)
The Tall T (1957)
Comanche Station (1960)
Decision at Sundown (1957)
Buchanan Rides Alone (1958)
All quirky and dark and pretty far from anything I would classify as "clean".

Johnny Guitar (1954)
Probably the most bizarre Western ever made.

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"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others."- Groucho Marx

Well I did already say aside from the Mann/Stewart films and many Wayne movies.

But even "The Searchers" (a film I still like a great deal) is hurt by this attitude due to some of that 'Ford' humour that slips in (great in SOME films, but none should appear in a film like this!), just to take that edge off.
The stunning and dark 'shooting the eyes out' scene is then followed by humourous dialogue exchanges with the Wayne/Ford regulars after, that come more from "North to Alaska" than a tough plotline such as this.

It may not be acceptable to say so...But the similar 'Posse interaction' and posse set-up in Michael Winner's "Chato's Land" (no great classic, but a deadly serious film for a deadly serious plotline) does it MUCH better.
As Wayne fan I love that Wayne humour. Fine in "Rio Bravo"...Damn out of place in "The Searchers"

"Red River"?! Except the ending?
Well the ending is rather important to a film for one thing.
And in fact that Christ awful travesty of a finale sums up so much of what I have said and proves my point on certain problematic aspects of many of these films I have.
That ending was the very definition of the clean cut, keep the kid and Mums happy, attitude of the time in so many Westerns.
Even those that don't warrant such an ending due to everything else that happened before.
If "Red River" was originally made in the 70's...You would not be saying 'except for the ending'. As that would never get past the written page let alone actually appearing in the film.

I'm all for lighthearted Westerns...If they ARE lighthearted Westerns. "Red River" was not meant to be one..but it's ending is. It stinks like a prairie dog!

"The Cowboys" from 1972 (see my point!) was far more honest and dramatically satisfying (though still effectively sentimental and moving) yet is sadly neglected, but it leaves the ever-lauded "Red River" in the dust.
It may only be the ending that kills "Red River"...But that's big enough and it does indeed leave it well and truly, stone cold, dead.

I have the exact same problem (obviously the very final scene aside) with Mann's "The Furies", where this wonderful dark tale of bubbling incest, murder, revenge and betrayal turns into an 'all is forgiven, lets stroll hand in hand laughing to restart our love 'n' friendship' plot wrap-up! What a sacharine con job!
Thank God for vengeful old Women to save at least some dignity from this dreadful finale that again would not see light of day if the film was made later.

And I never said ALL Westerns from that era either. And i'd put my 'Top 5' well above any of those mentioned above.
And in fact I don't agree that some of those you mentioned are not as i described in a good 80% of what we see in them.
"Stagecoach" may have a happy hooker ending...but the rest is a another example of 'clean and classic'. Right down to Wayne's silly school playground nickname!
It most certainly has fine moments, but is hurt by the time it was made and attitude it then had to have and be filmed with.
But that's okay...it just kills any chances of it appearing anywhere near a Top 30 Western lists I could name. But that's MY list.

And even the Mann/Stewart films ultimately tend to soften and lose their edge in time for the end credits.
Which is okay...but....well....hmm...

And in fact many of those I have seen...not seen all...are in fact EXACTLY what I was saying as far as the visual look of them goes.
Rugged chins, damn good shaves, pressed shirts and gleaming teeth, bright and shiny towns and no dirt to be seen.

Hell fire currently there is an Audi Murphy Western on from as late as 1961, "Posse from Hell"...and the faces on everyone GLEAM! Stubble? ****ing baby skin is rougher looking.
Clothes look like Jill from Wardrobe just made 'em (Because she has) and there was so much gleaming whitewash and pastel shades on buildings it looked more like Disney than Peckinpah.
Even a leather jacket was polished to a mirror shine.
Dialogue was damn near 'Well gee, shucks' and this thing can even make (yes, okay, it got mentioned at least) make the announcement of a rape sound like a slight case of hiccups.

But that's okay! Because that is what many Westerns, I seem to have committed a great crime by calling 'clean cut' (for want of a better expression), for many years were like and they served a need then and hold a cuddly place in viewers hearts now.

It's just not my thing.

I sense much defensiveness here...I have a view I have explained in detail (no 'this movie sux' garbage I think you would agree) my reasoning, but I have a love for a certain type of Western and a certain era of Western film making and that's that.

Maybe not the greatest western, but certainly the first:

As a kid, I liked the more comic westerns of the Sixties and Seventies.

Cat Ballou
Support Your Local Sheriff
Paint Your Wagon
The Great Scout and Cathouse Thursday
True Grit
The Cheyenne Social Club
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

and

Blazing Saddles.

Lord, I had such a crush on Cleavon Little when I was a little girl. He was so sly and funny.

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Louise Vale first woman to play Jane Eyre in the flickers.

I don't think anyone said you committed any great crime. I also think that most people would agree with your assessment of most Hollywood Westerns.

But as noir crept into the cinema it also crept into some Westerns. Not many, but some.

And those are the ones I like best too. I just thought I would list some of my favorites. In particular I recommend the Ranown cycle.

I agree that the comic relief Ford used in The Searchers hurt the movie.

As far as Red River being ruined, I just have too many good memories of too many great scenes to let the end totally ruin it for me. It's sort of like how I feel about The Magnificent Ambersons . Every time I watch it I am sad because I know how much has been cut from it, but what is there, is so good, I still enjoy it.

Comic relief, a bad thing? Say it ain't so.