Spin-off thread about feminism

ok... i feel like there's a big miscommunication here and i honestly don't know when or where it started lol, maybe we agree more than we realize, i dunno. i'm gonna try to go back to the beginning of the debate:

my whole argument from the getgo was that sexism/disrespect of women plays a huge part in rape and rape culture because it's about control and power. men, usually being the ones used to being in control, have a harder time letting go of that power, and are therefore more apt to commit these heinous acts. initially i thought you were disagreeing with that, and saying that actually, it's because men find themselves in situations where they are being denied sex more, and that's pretty much the reason why.

would you agree with me here or no? if i've misunderstood or misrepresented your beliefs, i'm sorry.

that's ok, i wasn't expecting you to give me specifics if you had them. i was asking mainly because i think actually talking to victims of assault is one of the best ways of understanding the mindset of the perpetrator and the victim. it wasn't necessarily a "gotcha!" moment, i was just honestly curious. i've learned a lot just from hearing my friends who shared their stories with me.

i thought we were just talking about fields that are mainly male dominated, where strength is a factor. i think sewer work or sanitation falls in those categories. i threw out the police and firefighting as examples, but i thought the sewer/sanitation/coal mining ones were good examples because they are generally seen as gross jobs that no one wants to do, and i've seen many MRA's say that women don't want those jobs because they aren't willing to do them, not cause they are being denied them.

as soon as i posted that link i knew you were gonna point out the one that was also about discrimination against their sexuality

anyway, look at them more when you have a minute i guess. but i'd also urge you to do your own research on the subject since mine has apparently fallen short. maybe look up Mierle Laderman Ukeles if you get an urge to look into this stuff on your own she was a HUGE advocate.

are you referring to the first link i posted under about coal mining? cause it's not really a petition of any kind, it's facts about women (and children) working as coal miners during the Industrial Revolution.

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i wouldn't say they are unfairly pressured to stay home, but moreso that it's what is expected cause of gender roles. i do think there are probably some women who would rather have a career but chose to stay home with their children because their significant other has a better paying job with a better chance of promotion. and you're right, i wouldn't say they are unhappy about this - most stay-at-home moms i know are happy with that.

Do you mean the commonly-quoted 77% statistic that got brought up at the beginning of that Stefan Molyneux video you posted? If so, it's a case of how a single numerical statistic does not automatically reflect the numerous factors at play - the Molyneux video definitely touched on that, as did my own research into other sources. It only becomes a lie if one insists on disregarding the context and using it as a concrete fact no matter what side of the issue they're on (especially since the gaps for women of different races is larger anyway). Even if the gap isn't a one-size-fits-all 77%, it's not like it doesn't exist at all - the fact that there is a gap at all is the issue, and the size of the gap itself is only one part of that issue.

Yeah, it's a good thing we're not living in a rape culture or else we might have allowed a man with a long history of misogynistic behaviour and rape accusations to be elected president over a woman.

But seriously, as evidenced by the aforementioned gender wage gap discussion, a single statistic does not completely reflect the complicated array of social/cultural factors that would influence said statistic one way or the other. Remember when you referenced Brian Banks and I responded with the comparison to Brock Turner? The discrepancy between their outwardly-similar cases is enough to indicate that there are greater factors at work that can't just be disproved by bringing up one stat.

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Yeah but that same woman was married Bill Clinton, who had his own rape accusations and his own long list of horrible behavior towards women. And she stayed by the guy the whole way and has been accused of intimidating his victims into silence. She is no angel either.

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and if his argument had been that Hillary is innocent and Trump isn't this response would actually make sense

also, can we stop acting like these two things are both equally horrible? because they clearly aren't, as only one of them is a deliberate and violent act

November 7, 2016 called. they want their tired/irrelevant arguments back.

My point is it is hard to point at Trump and cry "rape culture" as being part of why Hilary lost the election, and ignore Bill Clinton. It just makes no sense and smacks of the typical political crap.

And Bill's allegations came to light decades ago and not just a month or so before an election.

Yeah, I repped that because I can see Trump "the pig" but not Trump "the rapist". With his billions these supposed rape victims would have come at him years ago, that smear was just another layer of slime on the election.

Is Donald Trump a pig of a man? Someone who has said bad things about women, screwed around, and behaved in some shocking manners in the past? Of course he is. We have known this for decades. Bill Clinton is the exact some kind of guy only with less orange skin and an Arkansas accent. But the "misogynist" card was far from the lips of Democrats when Clinton was running for president and re-election.

What really wore me out this past election cycle was the constant labeling of one candidate, when the same could be said of the other one, if not more so.

Hillary is, in a way, condoning her husband's actions, I feel, by the way she steps out in the spotlight and asks people to support her, to vote for her in elections, etc. Bill did all of this stuff while married to her, and she just sticks by him -- because she knows she needs to be married to him and remain looking like a power couple.

She wants people to get over what Bill Clinton did. To forgive him, as she apparently did with him. But the problem is -- not everyone out there is going to forgive him! And THAT's probably one reason why she is not going to be our next President. She is basically like the wife of Bill Cosby going out and trying to become President. She really is.

1 - most rapes aren't reported. look it up.

2 - i think Bill Clinton is gross and misogynistic, too. so, no, #notalldemocrats

And now you made me think of South Park.

so people chose an actual rapist over a rape apologist? and this is better somehow? this is the most cringe-worthy thing about this whole argument - one is a very deliberate, violent act and the other is really shetty, but not on the same scale as actual rape.

if that's the actual reason Hillary lost, that's kinda sad. (it's not, i'm just saying if it was)

that's all i'm gonna say about that in here cause i'm not trying to derail another thread with Trump political bs

I understand. It just looks incredibly suspicious these women would come forward now. If he was a criminal like Bill Cosby, then there would be talks and rumors for years beforehand. When that girl was raped at the Kennedy compound years ago, it was all over the place. Even Bill Clinton had a much more rumored "piggish" personality than Trump, but Id elect Bill over him 8 days out of 7 anyway.

He's a blight on our country, theres enough besides that stuff to disdain him is all.

i agree with you wholeheartedly it looks suspicious, and i also think it's incredibly gross if it the info was kept from the public eye just for the "october surprise"

but it's like every time a woman comes forward that she was raped, if she doesn't do it right away she's seen as a liar. which is exactly why women don't come forward most of the time. because people are more worried about ruining the man's life than about her welfare :/

I got a masters in criminology. You are very correct.

Most rapes are not reported. We can still get a better feel for rape offenses in non official stats and interviews And rapes do get reported years after they occur. That is the reason why many states have either very long (approx 20-25 years) or no statute of limitations on sexual assault. And there is very good reason. Going through the criminal justice process and facing your accuser in court causes the rape victim to have to relieve what very well may be the single most traumatic event in their lives. Couple that with a defense team who use the most effective and despicable defense for rape: make the victim look like a slut. As such lots of high dollar attorneys will come through the victims lives looking for any piece of dirt to paint a false image of the victim as a loose woman who is angry and wants to smear the rapist. It happens all the time I am afraid. It is no wonder why rape has been THE most under reported crime since probably ever.

Thankfully by comparing said unofficial states to official ones (the FBI UCR data) we have seen that over the years this gap between rapes per year (shown better in the unofficial reporting) and the rapes reported (UCR) data has begun to shrink. Slowly albeit, but it does show that slowly the stigmata of rape that has been around since Biblical times is shrinking. At least in the US.

These woman who are brave and strong and are willing to suffer through hell to name their accuser, they deserve our support. But when the accusers are pointed at a man who is worth billions, has made a public brand for himself for decades, even resurrecting his notability and worth in a very popular reality TV show, only now cry allegations a month or so before a very heated, very ugly, very brutal election is about to end with the polls opening... and one has to treat the allegations with more then a little skepticism. If they got proof of a smoking gun great. Other wise it seems dubious.

Trump still a pig though. No arguments there.

Yeah. Yeah it is bad. Around 10 years ago I think the statistics for rape was 1 out of 3 women would be sexually assaulted in some fashion before hitting adulthood, for guys it was 1 in 5. If the movie Spotlight was any indicator then by now its much worse.

it's incredibly hard to prove that someone was raped, even if they do go straight to the police.

with Bill Cosby, the only reason people started believing it was because of the amount of women who stepped forward and how similar their predicaments and experiences were. plus, there's a foundation there. and a court case.

Tongo you and I will disagree about the "blight on the nation" part. At least for now. I am in wait and see mode.

But I can respect someone who just does not like the candidate based on their politics and policy as opposed to Tabloid fodder.

Here's the thing: Trump had no problem assembling a number of Bill's accusers during one of the presidential debates in order to discredit Hillary, yet he himself had a number of outstanding accusers who were filing suits against him as well. The hypocrisy involved in this move is staggering. Besides which, his ex-wife Ivana delivered a sworn statement of him committing marital rape decades ago so it's not like this recent wave of accusers was just a completely fresh smear campaign.

Aside from the aforementioned Ivana thing, consider the stigma that affects those who come forth with rape accusations, especially against the rich and famous. The fear of being publicly denigrated is enough to keep people from making reports or accusations for years after the fact - and that's just when the perp isn't a wealthy celebrity. You thinking that they would have come for him years ago simply because he was rich is part of the problem - it's more about getting justice than getting money (though it kind of sucks that people effectively have to accept cash settlements since actual incarceration for publicly beloved figures is such a long shot - just look at what happened with R. Kelly). Also, I can't blame them for coming forward during the election cycle - if the man who sexually assaulted you stood a good chance of becoming the U.S. President, that would be beyond too far.

Meanwhile, what wore me out was the media narrative that attempted to present both candidates as being equally bad in the interest of "fairness". Hillary definitely has her flaws, but at least she's a somewhat competent veteran of politics who can sort of be trusted to do the job. The Donald, on the other hand...

It might have been a hypocritical move, but he did what he felt he had to do to win the election. Whatever works.

It isn't just about the people who are trying to become President. It can also be about the parties and what they represent and believe in. Maybe people have just had enough of 8 years of the Democrats and their beliefs about things.