Girl Problem (cont.)

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So hard now.

Shes becoming less and less the person I love. And I feel like maybe I'm becoming that way to her too. We haven't spoken to each other for about 11 hours. I dont want to seem needy and call her. And I'm pretty sure she's just thinking "oh he doesn't want to speak to me anymore, ill leave him alone"

So tough. M, I read your emails over and over as a way to keep me from picking up that phone.
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Δύο άτομα. Μια μάχη. Κανένας συμβιβασμός.



Female assassin extraordinaire.
hi eq., ok, i was worried about you when i didn't hear anything. :P

it's not so much she's not who you thought she was, it's that you just didn't see or really know who she was. ie, she's not becoming "less of who you loved" - it's really that she was always this way and you're only now seeing it when it really counts. and you are loving her less as a result. or, finding it harder to love and forgive her.

plus she was making some bad choices and not thinking her behaviors through, leading to results that were bad. and she didn't want to look at those results, herself, or why she did those things and why's trying to avoid thinking or talking about 1) her own actions and her own behaviors and 2) how she feels about you and what your future together may/may not hold.

she just wants to push it under a rug and not be bothered. some people just refuse to. you can't help that. it doesn't mean she's bad or not good or a stranger, it means she's a flawed human being like any one else and at this point, her issues are hurting you and she's not interested in looking at them or solving them to go on and be happy on her own and learn to be good to you and everyone else.

that's why i say let her go, we all do. a girl who does what she has done, how she's done it, and behaves the way she does after the fact to you and her ex, is a girl with problems. she may not thinks she has them, but she does.

a bit self-destructive, self-absorbed, but also lazy - it's too hard and scary to look at herself and think about change and improvement. it's much easier to blame you for being mean or combative for trying to be honest and open and address things before moving on.

and like i said, don't get bogged down - hard, but true - about this. go out and live your life. don't let her take your pride, self love, self confidence, from you because of her own baggage.

get some space, some time, be aroun dfriends, family. laugh, chat, philosophize, travel, dine, see and do things without her.

if time passes and you realize it's not as painful as you thought, then that's your big hint you may not want to go backwards. and again, if it passes and you realize you want another try at it, you can try to talk again.
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life without movies is like cereal without milk. possible, but disgusting. but not nearly as bad as cereal with water. don't lie. I know you've done it.



A system of cells interlinked
Hey...Gummo getting all the credit for my philosophy! Thimilin, I wrote all that, not the gumster!

How are things going now, EQ? It's SO hard to let someone go when you care about them, believe me. But, you can do it! Stick to your guns!
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” ― Thomas Sowell



I have taken the advice of the members on this forum and am taking an active approach in just letting things...be. Some of my freinds, who do not know her, have said that I need to gain the power back. She knows how i feel about her, and she knows i keep asking. This makes me seem needy, clingy, and insecure. Thats not attractive.

So they told me to go hang out with friends and stay busy, if she calls or texts, answer her, be kind..polite..funny..be normal with her, but then end the conversation because your friends are calling you.

Basically they're telling me to make her understand that shes not going to be a priority to me, if she isn't going to make me hers.

So i did just that. I hung out with 2 girls and a guy friend of mine. She texted me during, i texted back, we chit chatted andshe asked verbatim "How come i've never met these 'friends'?" Told her the names, and then I said "I have to run doll im being thrown out of the group, ciao"
She responded with "right-later"

Whatever. I'm so beyond her getting angry with me, when I'm the one who should be pissed.


Anyways so under the advice of the same friend, I did not contact her at all, and by midnight last night i had given up hope that she even cared. But I was surprised that around 12:30 am she sent a simple goodnight text.

Woke up this morning unsure of what to do, we have that class again together today. I'm told I still shouldn't call her or text her, unless she does so first, in which case I should wait a little while before getting back to her (i have alot of things to do today so this is going to work out fine). And when I see her in class, act normal, funny, myself, and even be a little flirtatious.

Don't offer to hang out with her after class, unless she asks, in which case dinner in a public place is the limit..

go home and once again, find something to do so that if she calls or texts, she knows i'm busy.




How do you guys feel about this? Does this accomplish anythintg, does this gain back the power, the confidence, and the integrity i gave up for this girl?

does this make her realize the seriousness of losing me as "more than friends" and make her scared that I'll make her a pleutonic friend?

M, sedai, Gummo, and all who have given me advice, one day I swear on whatever little pride, honor, and integrity I still have, I will repay you for the amount of time you are giving me. But it helps so much.



I feel like my plan to play it cool may be backfiring, she has eliminated me from her "heroes" section, which contained a small dedication to me...

What am I doing, what is she thinking...



I lose it. I'm packing, and I'm not myself. I'm in emotionalturmoil and the only thing that can fix it is a night with her like we used to do.

I called her just now just to chat, asked her why she removed my dedication...she told me it wasnt a big deal and that i was being overdramatic.

When asked "Just tell me, is it over for you?" she answered "Don't be rediculous.I shouldn't have answered you call, I don't feel like talking to anyone. I'm sorry"

So asked if we can talk later, after our class...she said okay..

What is wrongggggggggggg....AH. Shes falling out of love with me isn't she? Someone just say it if you think its the truth.



Female assassin extraordinaire.
well that's what we've been saying, dude! she left you already (she's out of love with you) but won't admit it because she doesn't really KNOW what she wants. and she doesn't want to look like the meanie and prove anyone right - she cheated, kept a man on the side, but didn't really do right by the man on the side either. out of sheer hubris, she's sticking to you being ridiculous and dramatic.

but her actions SHOW what she wants and how she really feels. just because she refuses to say it and says "stop being ridiculous i TOLD you i care about you" does not mean she loves you madly and wants to be with you. her actions show that.

it's like when her boyfriend sensed she was cheating. there were probably weeks in there when he asked and she went, "don't be ridiculous, i'm not seeing anybody, how dare you!" that's projecting again. that's him being "mean and untrusting" and getting in trouble to help her deflect from the lies she's hiding and pulling so she doesn't get caught. and when he learned about you and probably asked again she said, STOP it, you're so sick and selfish, eq. and i are just FRIENDS.

yeah right. and then the end came. lying about it before hand wont' stop the end from happening. telling you to quit tripping does not mean there isn't a problem. again, the rug thing.

re: her being all pissy and changing her myspace on you, having attitude in her texts - all the things you're actively doing to her recently - waiting to text or call back, not contacting her first, being purposefully distant and letting her know you have other priorities - were things she used to do to you.

she doesn't like that. you didn't either, by the way, but you took it cuz you "loved" her. i'm not doubting you feel you love her, but a person can manipulate you into feeling and doing things until your'e convinced. now you're not so sure. i think you're more struck by how much you puty ourselfout there and how shockedy ou are by how she's handling it - you didn't think her capable ofit.

because you lied to yourself, just like she lied to you and herself. if she convinces you well enough, you believe she's completely unselfish and loves you and is a good well meaning person not lying to you in this situation. so your love grows, you forgive her a lot you'd never forgive anyone else.

put it this way. if your best friend treated you like this, would you take it? what about your coworker? your childhood friend? your sister? your parent?

probably not. you would raise hell unti the sh|t flew, cause a shakedown, and demand repercussions,explanations, and no more bullsh|t.

but because she got into your heart, head, and mind, she's getting away with a whole lotta crap no one else would, could, or should.

and now she's getting cranky thaty ou keep challenging those lies, wondering about her behavior, comparing it to conversations with other people, and what you feel deep down is not making you happy.

and she's getting cranky about those challenges, just like any liar would.

you can simplify it more dramatically - i had to do this withmyself re: my best friend - she's the abuser, your'e the abused. you will make up ANY reason to forgive her for stomping all over your heart as long as youcan keep stringing yourself along with hope that she MIGHT turn around that she's just going through something, that she's not quite herself right now, that she really loves you, and then y ou swing back and quiver thinking, she DOESN"T love you, how ill you go on, oh you're hurting so muchinside, maybe you should call her, this will all be solved if you could just be with her and have her.

but what's SHE doing? she's cranky and annoyed with you and not trying to be or have anything deeper than text messages, occasional phone calls, small talk, and superficiality.

she REFUSES to talk to in depth and resolve things and address both of your feelings and SETTLE the issues and MOVE ON. she thinks she can move on by not doing that. that's impossible. you have to both address your own actions, mistakes, forgive each other, THEN move on. you can't just skip to the moving on. you'll continue to doubtyourself, harbor resentments, and play games - both of you.

the thing is, you shouldn't actively be trying to make her miss you. you shouldn't even be in this limbo at all.

i keep saying that you need to have a specific conversation *about your relationship* to set out a plan and act it out. ie, talk for 1 hour, she says what she wants and feels, you say what you want and feel, and then you take the break, and then you come back and sit down again and say what you both want and feel again. if it's different, and good, you start over. if it's not, you part ways or stay "friends."

in all honesty if it's not improved you'll probably both want to not talk to each other again. why? because space will showy ou both you're not happy with, or meant for, each other right now. you'll be happier being yourself somewhere else. maybe one day you could try, but it's not going to kill you to not be together and it's not the end of a great saga, you are not romeo and juliet, and she has some issues and you both began your relationship on a lie.

yes, you did. that's why you are tryign to hold sifting sand together with your bare hands - it started on a lie, dude.

now, i don't advocate actively trying to make her miss you, btw. that'smean and cruel. that'st he game SHE plays. don't do it back to her. be an adult and mature about it and enforce fairness.

you're sick of wondering, you don't want to have to wonder. if she refuses to talk about it to truly elucidate and resolve things then get some space until you can. it's only fair.you shouldn't HAVE to wonder. you shouldn't have to be overthinking every little thing she does and you do instead of just BEING with her.

also, re: the heroes and not liking each other any more andf alling out of love - feeling like the meanie and her applying guilt to you:


when a relationship goes bad sometmesa person is so caught up intheir own issues that they literally see the other person as the only one at fault. in choosing to avoid to address themselves, too, they are basically staring at an equation that should be:

1 + 1 = 2.

And they are instead seeing:

0 + 1 = should be 2

She's 0 thinking you're the one fighting this equation. the problem is, what does 2 equal? friendship? sex and friendship? love, sex and friendship? She refuses to evaluateit with you, talk about it with you, resolve it withyou, forgive each other, say how she really feels, and talk about how you really feel.

She's 0 but thinks she's 1.

You want her to be 1, and she refuses to be.

Your equation is not adding up. Space and time might convince her, not game playing and pettiness.

If it DOESN"T then there is NO WAY you're going to change her brain. her brain is convinced that she's 1 and behaving like af ully committed, kind, giving, open, fair, just, responsible, reasonable, willing to work on it with you. she's not, right now.

and if that means she stares at you and you're the culprit, the bad attitude,the one rockig the boat, pissing her off, unnerving her, confusing her, making her doubt herself, challenging her, making things hard, you can't change her mind there either.

i've had a few of these kinds of people inmy life, and unfortunately they happened to be family so it was very hard forme to say look, if in your mind im' the evil one, fine.

you don't want to be the evil one, you dont' want to be responsible, you want to keep chasing her and committing and hounding her.

but you can't make her look at you any differently, you can'tmake her believe in you or your relationship, you can't MAKE her do anything.

if she believes you're a piece of sh|t now, or someone that makes her uncomfortable with too many demands, and you feel you demands are perfectly fair and reasonable considering you had a romantic relationship, what are you going to do?

walk away. you can only accept that she has the right to think what she thinks and feels. and since you don't agree, you should NOT be staying ther.e you should say your piece - no, i'm ont whaty ou think i'm trying here andyou're not, and i'm tired of it,and i want space, and i'd like to try later, but i'm taking space NOW.

and leave. but like i saidyou gotta talk about it you can't just not tell her this and play mind games with the cell phone and IM.



I really hate to say this because I know from experience how hard it is to do, but the only thing now to do is walk away.

Whether or not she feels anything for you has now become irrelevant, the two of you are dancing around each other and the relationship has become that, a toxic dance. unless you make a break right now it is doomed to forever be defined by this time. She needs time to be alone, if she so chooses and you need the same. I have been there and I have learned this lesson so hard, I continue to learn it over and over on a daily basis.

I'm not saying harden your heart. What I am saying is that the relationship has become something unhealthy. She needs time to be by herself in the midst of the two of you. If she chooses not to be alone then the relationship won't survive anyway because she is incapable of being a separate, singular human being. The same goes for you. It sounds cliche, but you have to love yourself before you can love anyone else, and you have to be alone before you can be together. You don't want an incomplete person, nor does she and once the drama subsides, what will be left. I doubt it will be much.

I'm not being harsh, you seem like a great guy and I hurt for you. I don't like the fact that someone so open and intelligent is being dragged into depression by someone who can't make a simple choice. Don't fall for it, let go now while you still can. It may take years, but if there is truly something there it will persist and at some time later flourish.

My thoughts are with you as are all the people who posted, draw strength from that, the fact that relative strangers give more than a little of a s*** about your well being.

We hurt for you and we hurt with you.
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"You have to believe in God before you can say there are things that man was not meant to know. I don't think there's anything man wasn't meant to know. There are just some stupid things that people shouldn't do." -David Cronenberg



Okay. 2 Hours until I see her. There's been a few texts between us about random funny stuff.

I'm going to keep my composure and just lay out what you guys said,offer the space. And walk away.

Sounds good on paper...heres whats going tyo happen in real life

Either one of two things:
I break down and we both yelkl at other and say hurtful things...ill be mad if she really fell out of love..ill walk away and everything between us will have been damaged.

I break down..she breaks down..we started kissing and making out but make rules about the futurer and probably do the space thing..


I just need to find out answers from her..especially if shes falling out of love..i want her to just say that...i would be devestated and I can just move on.



Female assassin extraordinaire.
honestly bein devastated and angry is actually better for you. that seems counter-intuitive but it's true.

it's better to think you hate her and have an explosion that gives you both complete release from, what i agree rethelo, is a toxic dance. an unhealthy situation.

then you can heal, think clearly, move on, and reassess things if and when you're ever ready to.

i highly doubt #2 is gonna happen, fella. sorry.



A system of cells interlinked
Damn... I need to take some of this advice, myself... Toxic Dance... I have been in one for almost 6 months! My feet are tired!

EQ, wish you lived close enough where we could go out and grab a beer and bitch about these chicks to one another!



What the ****.

Exactly what I wanted happened tonight.

I don't understand it, but I guess this girl um..still really loves me.



We finish class...meanwhile im being completely myself and we're laughing hysterically about random stuff. Class is over, I say lets ride to starbucks in my car, get something to drink. Shes all happy and is like "sure but my mom is cooking dinner in about an hour and a half". So we go, we're at starbucks, she's giving me looks, like the i like you looks. Shes doing the thing where we're being cute and talking bout random stuff. After about 45 minutes we go back to my car, get inside, and i ask her. So tell me whats on your mind...But she avoided it, and I called her on it "I know you like to avoid thinking about it, but you must if you want to not hurt me"

So she's like ok give me a second, meanwhile we begin to talk about other things..laughing and stuff.....then we hold hands...and she starts playing with my fingers like she used to. So I ask "tell me what you're thinking'


So she goes "Its obvious, break is coming up...and i can't do this long distance thing with you...i can't handle it right now"

SO i says ok "So you're asking for space"

her: "obviously"

So I ask, are you getting back together with your ex and she goes "Not likely, and I don't think I want to, because I don't know what I want"

So I say, "Look I'm going to give you space now and for the next week, but i dont know what to do in the meantime, should i close myself off to you and move on, or should i give you space but leave the door open...i think we should both be on the same page about this"

"I just don't know at all, i don't know what I want and i don't know what its going to be like when i come back"

then she gives me this look, the kind of look where she wants to kiss me....and then bam....we start kissing.

So i look her and say "is it the same, do you feel the same when we are together like this"...she said "yes"

So I was like, okay then, well now we have things cleared up...she gets out of the car...then comes back in...grabs my face and starts kissing me..."thanks for the coffee" and then she was out....10 minutes later she sends me a text "Do you miss me already?"

and now I'm home....

i guess I'm a good judge of situations afterall...i knew something like this might wind up happening.


So I have peace of mind. But is my peace of mind misplaced?

Did I really walk away from this having settled something, or did she get exactly what she wanted? What was with the hand holding and the kissing? A sign of her affection for me when shes not playing games with my mind?

Its clear now what I should do, no matter how hard I have to just distance myself from her a little bit.

Its not going to be hard to give her space....because i like itr when someone asks for space..because then when i back off, they know why..and they begin to miss me...because its kind of like THEY were the ones who needed it, not me ( though i need it too i think?)

I'm a bit excited, a bit relieved, i got my kiss not because i wanted it but because we both wanted it and ive left the ball in her court where i know i cant **** it up since my only job now is to give her space.

What do you guys think of this outcome?



And now shes calling me...even though she needed space...and we're having really good long conversations....wtf is going on here



Now that space is given it is up to you. "go away and be with yourself" is my best advice. Take up a new hobby, go see movies by yourself, dinner, walk, do something that involves no one else. You have spent so much time in the realm of this other person, its time to define yourself in terms of YOU.

Personally, I don't think this is the end, it may not even be a break because you will hear from her, its just human nature. But if you have to build an insulating shield around yourself do so, you need time to get back to you and all that you mean to yourself.

Speaking of going out and grabbing a beer, the offer is open to both you guys (and anyone else so inclined). If either of you happen to be in the New Haven area anytime soon feel free to PM me. There are a few great watering holes in and around Yale that I would love to share.

Be well and good luck.



Originally Posted by Equilibrium
And now shes calling me...even though she needed space...and we're having really good long conversations....wtf is going on here
How did I know.



So last night we talked for about 4 hours on the phone like we used to and then we went to sleep.

M, sedai, and anyone else, whats your take on this?

We agree on space and then she calls me and we talk alot..



Female assassin extraordinaire.
yeaaah, i agree with othello.

i'm going to say this - i'm happy for you, if THIS is what you want. i'm not happy at what i know could happen, but if you are happy in this situation, then behappy, and i don't fault you that.

but it's like watching someone who's an alcoholic think about turning teetotaler. you encourage them, and they ask your advice, then they decide to keep on with it.

bad juju, from our end, friend, in watching this as observers. but you are in it, and must do what your gut tells you. if your gut tells you it is WORTH the perpetual confusion (even *AFTER* having "cleared things up) - then you go right on ahead and enjoy the confusion and doubt with the kisses, sex, and conversations.

i think it's your ages. or her age. she just hasn't had enough relationships, doesn't know or appreciate independence. and it doesn't seem like you do either.

seems like you both want something so badly even if it's not being handled right or will hurt you later, that you're both willing to fumble through it and damn the consequences (which may include lying to yourselves and each other).

then again,she could just really love you and want you and be a mental and emotionalmess and need some time to figure herself out but she just won't do that, she just wants to jump right in there and "be happy."

like chris described, build a house on sand. yes the house is ****ing beautiful. for now.

i do hope, however, that i am completely wrong and you are completely right and that it all works out. that is definitely preferred.

i am proud of you that asked her: ""I know you like to avoid thinking about it, but you must if you want to not hurt me""

andkept making her address it. but i am concerned by her own behaviors. do you want to spend your relationship having to guide, warn, encourage, and pressure her like this?

i'd have been pissed fromt he getgo and not wasted my time. so deep down a part of you may actually prefer relationships that way. always questioning, always forcing each other to haev an intense toxic dance may just be what you crave. i've seen it. some people don't know how to just be chill and easy, they end up making drama if there's none to startwith, just to have to work through it. life seems more passionate and powerful that way.

don't mean to offend with these statements, just saying,the way our hearts and brains work can make us do some weird sh|t, and put up with weird sh|t. if you like dealing with the weird sh|t, then go ahead.

If I confront and discuss "space" with a person and someone says to me "obviously - and i can't handle long distance right now" whenit's a measley couple of weeks, and despite her insistence about needing space she's texting and chasing you ...

to me, that's total contradiction and a mindf*ck and not something i've got the patience to play with.

if you both agree on space, you can only be responsible for your own actions. a man of strength and honor - a person of strength and honor- sticks to their word. they do exactly what they say they will, mean exactly what they say, and therefore don't say anything to anyone else unless they absolutely mean it.

i don't see her doing that, and as a result, i don't see you doing it either. you gotta take a stand in the end,and allowing your own self to change directions constantly based on her compass, when her compassis broken, is going to get BOTH of you nowhere.



A system of cells interlinked
Originally Posted by Equilibrium
So last night we talked for about 4 hours on the phone like we used to and then we went to sleep.

M, sedai, and anyone else, whats your take on this?

We agree on space and then she calls me and we talk alot..
3 options:

1- Just let it flow, distance yourselves from the relationship **** for a WHILE, and just do friendly things, and talk about friendly things.

2 - Stop talking for a while. Don't sit there and say 'I shall never interact with you again", because, that never works. I have tried it. I mean, Michelle totally mauled me, and herself for that matter, and I have tried to be a hard ass and tell her I can never talk to her again and she doesn't deserve my friendship. Meanwhile, we have plans tomorrow night. Still, we have all but stopped calling and emailing at this point, because we need time to gain new personal perspective.

3- Obtain an Armalite AR-10 carbine gas powered semi-automatic assault weapon, and pump round after round into all involved. Probably not the best choice, but would give me something interesting to watch on the news tonight.

Really, though. Space is clearly needed. As much as I hate giving and needing it myself, it HAS helped.



In the Beginning...
Originally Posted by Sedai
3- Obtain an Armalite AR-10 carbine gas powered semi-automatic assault weapon, and pump round after round into all involved.
The first rule of the relationship is... there is no relationship.