George W. Bush

yeah well, in all honesty, the americans have done all they should have ( in my humble opinion )...why the hell should they stay and have more soldiers die because muslims don't appreciate "freedom"? i say get the hell outta there and leave them to fend for themselves....:-/

nations should take control over their destiny....not wait for others to take care of business for them....and if they wanna anihilate each other over bull**** religious differences...so be it...

edit: "In another case reported a homosexual man was allegedly victim of “honour crime.” It was reported in the press that the man’s father was released without trial once he explained that he had hanged his son after discovering that he was homosexual. "

and ain't it just a peachy little culture the americans are trying to preserve?

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Haha! You saw what happen to 'Nam after we pulled out. That's a great definition of success. No, we're already there and we're going to finish the job. Otherwise, all our men died for nothing and that, I couldn't stand for.

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"This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined." -Baruch Spinoza

Sorry for the double post.
Haha, too bad America didn't do that. We sat around waiting for help from tons of countries for our fight for freedom. Tons and tons of countries do the same so I don't quite agree with that one.

sorry friend, but your contrymen died fighting for the "liberation" of a nation that hates your guts...they did in fact die for nothing...but that was a choice they made....

you're talking about the war against Britain ( i'm never quite sure how this is spelled..:-/) or the war in Iraq?
and please don't start with the whole " america only wanted to free the iraquee ( oh bloddy hell, YOUR LANGUAGE SUCKS! ) people" thingamajig because i'm gonna get seriously pissed off....

For a start, coz they've created the situation - through both the pre-intervention sanctions and the intervention itself. (With the help of the UK, i should add).

Saddam's iron-first, repulsive as it was, held everything together. Currently it's unravelling.

And i've always felt it would resolve a lot of 'blood debts' (on the part of both the US and the UK), if something even vaguely resembling peacefulness and prosperity could be set up there.

Definitely ain't holding my breath tho.

Hey geez, whatever the ineptitudes of the Nato intervention in your conflict, they didn't just leg it once the fighting had been bombed to a stop did they? And as ugly as the comparable divisions you guys had were (are?), they weren't preceeded by the type of infrastructure destruction that Iraq's been through. Iraq needs more time. (For the long-shot possiblity of leaving something other than a blood-bath behind)

Yeah, well that's gonna stop if the occupiers pull out

Oh, there's a lot of ugliness going on - both in 'local' and 'occupier' senses.

At the end of the day tho, the Bushies will fight tooth and claw to stay. Part of this has been about establishing a base of operations, i'm sure. Hell, they've only just pulled out of Germany

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[quote=Golgot]yes well, moral responsability be damned, i would put american lives first ( and i'm totally disregarding the latter part of your post here, about setting up a base la-di-da )...something the admin doesn't seem to care too much about....
plus, the people of Iraq *blatantly avoids spelling it the other way again* would like nothing more than the americans getting the hell outta there....but i suppose their wishes were insegnificant from teh get go....:-/


golgoty golg....remember this, when talking about the situation in the balkans, be very careful because it's a super touchy subject when i'm concerned....so let me set you straight: NATO didn't interveen in croatia, we fought and won on our own ( with no help from the UN either ). also, the destruction in Iraq isn't even comparable to the destruction that happened in Bosnia and Croatia ( 4 years of war compared to a limited intervention that lasted a couple of months )...and we are working on rebuilding the country on our own...



sooo....i say we occupy every muslim country in the world...

How do you know this? I really hope you're not one of those people that believe everything you read and hear in the news.

[quote=adidasss]Oh believe, they care. About the geopolitical stuff. The morality business always trails in at the end - no matter what their feelings on the subject.

Well, yes, and yes, in many ways. But if the US is still struggling to spend the ear-marked reconstruction money to this day, what will happen if they not only pull out, but take their money with them?

It's not like there's a coherent set-up waiting to even make sense of the viable infrastructure, and society, that does still exist.

Yeah i know mate. I dived in. And my knowledge is limited on this n'all. But i felt alright to an extent, coz you're diving in a bit on the Iraq stuff too.

One point still stands tho. You haven't been ****ed-over infrastructurally for nigh-on a decade like the Iraqis have. That makes a huge difference.

It just doesn't make it 'better'.

Hey. Gay-pride marches have strict boundaries

sure i am....i only really watch non-american news sooo....you know...they might be more objective....i seem to recall and interview or two with some american soldiers that wanted to get the hell outta there because they just didn't want to die for people who hate them...something they didn't understand...

OK, so we are to assume that they all hate us because two America soldiers said they did? Wow, and like all these videos of the actual Iraqis praising the Americans just get like what? Burned? But no, we can trust those two Americans because they had a bad experience with some terrorists. Great thinking.

well, if they keep governing their country, they'll never learn how to do it themselves now will they? i don't really care...if they wanna kill themselves, i say let them....only make sure to take their oil first....because they were too stupid to keep it....*is ruthless*



was i? i don't think i stated anything completely false....

they were ****ed over because of their own actions....i don't see why anyone else should be responsible for that....and i know the infrastructure is gonna be rebuilt not because of the benevolance of others, but because others are gonna make a few billion dollars off of it...

no idea what you just said...*is dense*

you don't happen to watch fox news do you?

I think you might be ignoring the pre-war effect in Iraq.

There's two issues:

Imagine if, rather than being in Croatia finding its feet, you were part of Yugoslavia, struggling to do the same.

And then imagine you'd been economically sanctioned and subject to airstrikes for around a decade.

That's more the situation Iraq is in. And then add oil

Nah, for the above reasons, i disagree. What's going on there is majorly due to turmoil that was previously set in motion by outside forces, and then clumsily not-even-vaguely addressed by the invasion.

I was alluding to the Polish march recently, which only vaguely-just-happened. And then involved flying bricks

And by default, was saying that cultural change doesn't always spread easily in confrontational circumstances. And often involves flying masonry

For someone who is so smart you sure are funny.

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Unlike you, no.

No, I know plenty of soldiers actually. Ever talked to one before? Ever seen a video of a family of Iraqis pretty much worshipping the soldiers? From you comments above, I'd think hardly. But seriously, just talk to tons of soldiers face to face and they're more then likely going to tell you good things. Unlike that crap the news keeps shuffling under your nose.

@ 7thson His whole visit. The security. They had to shut down a town and a lake. Something like this. We need the money for other things than George Bush.

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that's funny actually, because in this case i wasn't reffering to the news...i was talking about neutral ( if there is such a thing ) documentaries ( french, english, german...one of the privelages of living in a small country, we get shows from all over the world )...you say you've talked to plenty of soldiers...are you saying they're happy to be there? and if you talked to them back home, do they wanna return to that peachy land filled with honey and flying unicorns? can i take i wild guess here and say they'd rather stay at home...safe and sound ,rather than risk being killed for dubious reasons? are the soldiers you've talked to really ready to die fighting for the freedom of a nation they have nothing to do with?

depending on where those soldiers are, of course there are varying degrees of hate...i'm sure the hatered is much more apparent in Baghdad..that's where the soldiers i saw were stationed...

one thing i neglected to comment on was your reason for opposing the war in Iraq...i got a feeling that the only reason you thought it wasn't right is because you had something more importaint to do...( what exactly that is, you neglected to say )...as if you don't really care that the invasion and it's supposed reasons were bull**** and a pretty clear cut violation of the international law...

[quote=Golgot]i'm not ignoring the pre-war situation, i'm saying they caused it by themselves....regardless of who was running the nation, it's citizens are responsible for it's destiny..plenty of nations have overturned dictatorships, some with blood and violence, some peacefully....if the iraqis couldn't do that, it's nobodys fault but their own...if they were unsatisfied and downtortten, then do something about it! you think the international community was for our seccesion?? nope...if i recall correctly, brittain and france were very much opposed to it...did we care? no, cause the time had come for our freedom...result, a 4 year war, thousands of kiled, billions of dollars of damage to the infrastructure and economy...( and no oil either to help us rebuild )

how about the situation in serbia, very much like the situation in Iraq...more than a decade of sanctions, a NATO intervention, yet they managed to overthrow Milošević by themselves and are slowly rebuilding their country....

the situation in Bosnia, the international community is actually slowing down the process of selfgovernment, result, status quo that noone is satisfied with, incapability of making their own decisions....

how do you adress something like that? animosity that ( may or may not be for the most part casued by brittain ) is there, it's taken roots and i really don't see what others can do to fix it....


that particular aspect of their culture will never change....in many ways, the muslims are centuries behind the west as far as civil rights are concerned...forcefully trying to change them will only piss them off even more....( unlike what's happening in east europe for example ,where the pressure of the EU is actually forcing the countries to change more rapidly than they ever would by themselves, especially in the civil rights department )

muslims are a funny little category of people....i know this is gonna saw aweful, but i'm sick of the west trying to change them only for them to hate us in return...they're obviously not feeling the whole "all human beings are equal" philosophy....and i know we can't exactly allow mass execusions a-la Taliban ( for looking at someone the wrong way ) go on....i dunno...a lot of mixed feelings here....i don't know what the right course of action is....let them learn by themselves ( and i'm soo patronising right now ) or what?....:-/

Documentaries find people that promote their views. You, a movie person, of all people should know this.

Second, we didn't need to go into Iraq but, our new war on "terror" needed someone to come down. It was a poor choice going into Iraq when there are much more dangerous people that could have been taken down. We just put ourselves in an obligation for the next several years; it was stupid.

I know this may be getting a bit off topic but France was actually for it, seeing as they were rivals of England and the more would weaken the empire.

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