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Then the question becomes whether you reject it as an absurd non sequitur or if you actually think about what kind of circumstances would lead to someone genuinely making such a claim.
Not only are these not mutually exclusive, but it's thinking about those circumstances that leads me to conclude it's an absurd non-sequitur in the first place.

And really, is this a posture that's applied consistently? I can't imagine that, when an alt-right person says something nuts about men being oppressed, your first thought is "that statement is so extreme that they wouldn't have made it without a good reason."

The reason I brought up the GOP's plan to repeal the ACA (even though they were having trouble agreeing on a suitable replacement plan) is because that is a government policy where the consequences will negatively affect certain demographics. The major concern with getting rid of it completely is that preventing people from being able to access health care would ultimately lead to people being unable to get better from illnesses and eventually dying. If a person dies because government legislature prevents them from being cured, does that not mean that the state is indirectly responsible for their death? It may not involve death squads straight-up murdering people on explicitly religious grounds, but does that mean the deaths that do happen are automatically more acceptable?
Well, first: yes, of course it does. Arbitrary death squads are in a different moral stratosphere even than directly removing someone's healthcare, nevermind merely refusing to subsidize it or, as is more likely to be the case, simply subsidizing some of it by some different amount or mechanism.

But there are other major problems with the comparison even if you leave the moral distinctions out entirely:
1) If you're going to treat anything the government does that might even lead indirectly to death as if it were akin to a war crime (!), then any significant government policy is going to qualify, particularly anything affecting health care. There's no way to upend an industry of that size without this happening, and that includes the enactment of the ACA. You don't think anyone who saw their premiums skyrocket had to drop insurance as a result, and got sick, or will?

2) If undoing this kind of policy is the same as killing anyone relying on it, then you'd be unable to avoid the inverse implication that instituting the policy is akin to hostage-taking.

3) If you want to venture into the murky, speculative world of second-order consequences, cool, but you have to consider all of them. If subsidizing insurance less is "killing" people, then it would logically follow that spurring medical innovation would be "saving" people. Ditto any policy that makes it easier to provide high-end care, since the dearth of such care is a hallmark of virtually every socialized health care system the world over.
So if you want to adopt this kind of ripple-effect standard, you can, but you can't pick just the bad second-order effects and ignore the good ones. Granted, you may not believe these second-order effects will bear out (though I think the preponderance of evidence clearly suggests at least some of them will), but at that point you'd no longer be arguing from a shared premise about how they're "killing" people and don't care. You'd simply have a difference of opinion about what produces better overall care in the long-term.

All I'm saying is that maybe there's a reason people are concerned enough to make such an extreme comparison.
I'm sure there is, but being concerned doesn't mean any rhetoric employed in service of that concern is valid or fair. In fact, I'd say the correlation runs the other way: the more concerned someone is, the less likely they are to make reasonable comparisons.

They're both ideologically driven movements that have an invested interest in amassing political power, though I'll concede there are differences between the two and that the practical enforcement of one ideology can be more readily observed than with the other (though who knows how much that'll change with Steve Bannon of all people as chief White House strategist).
Are you saying that you think Steve Bannon might convince the current government to start deliberately killing innocent people for ideological reasons?

As for whether or not I should take Steel's concern at face value, I think that is admittedly the result of spending so long on the defensive and being unable to tell at a glance whether a question is coming from a place of genuine interest or actually does have an ulterior motive (as with aforementioned "concern trolls", which I've spent far too much time dealing with on here alone).
Yeah, I'm not suggesting you take everything he says at face value, just that (reasonably) suspecting him of "concern trolling" on the women's march hardly seems like a reason to think he might not really care about innocent life at all.



Iro, over the course of this discussion you've questioned my motives.

I think it's pretty clear that I'm motivated by a desire to see a global unification against terrorism (including the overt & extremist misogyny inherent within the ideology), not just in a military respect, but the entire world uniting in one voice to say that we - yes, even we civilians wherever you may find us - are not going to stand for it anymore and we are no longer afraid to say so.

If the only answer as to why that does not occur is that the world is too afraid of Islamic Terrorism (and will only stick to publicly opposing "safe" targets like the U.S. President) then it become obvious that Terrorism has met one of its primary goals and has already won - we might as well all surrender and declare Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as chief Caliph over all the Earth.

P.S. Thanks to Yoda for keeping an open mind and not casting unfounded aspersions.



I've known Captain Steel for a long time, even before I came to MoFo. He's a good internet friend, an intelligent & informed person, and I invited him here to MoFo.
I can vouch for him, he's no troll...

If you wonder why he's so adamant in his hate for ISIS, it's because he understands that ISIS is a real threat to the welfare of humanity and democracy...they are not just a group of thugs. He knows ISIS is a spreading ideology of violence and suppression that has the power of religion behind it, and coupled with political aspirations, which makes ISIS the most dangerous idea on the planet.

I believe Captain Steel feels that Trump is our best chance to stop the spread of radicalized Islam. I know Steel isn't a fan of Trump per say, but I will venture a guess based on what I know of Steel, that he finds the global women marches against Trump laudable, as Trump isn't in the same evil league as ISIS...and yet people are reluctant to call radicalize Islam what it truly is: an evil that is based on their twisted religious beliefs...and in the west we find criticizing any religious beliefs to be politically incorrect. Though we have no problem protesting a president.



I've known Captain Steel for a long time, even before I came to MoFo. He's a good internet friend, an intelligent & informed person, and I invited him here to MoFo.
I can vouch for him, he's no troll...
I could be a sleeper troll - establishing long-term Internet trust (and talking about such things as "movies" on other threads) until my secret cell leader gives the code word to unleash socio-politic-religious rants upon unsuspecting sites!



"I smell sex and candy here" - Marcy Playground
So, now twitter streaming surpassed election day? Earlier it was 23% less.

Record 6.8 Million Watched Trump's Inauguration On Twitter's Live Stream
The inauguration of Donald Trump on Jan. 20 drew a record-breaking audience to Twitter’s live-streaming service. Twitter announced today that over 6.82 million unique viewers watched its live feed of the event, slightly surpassing the 6.8 million viewers who watched Twitter’s live feed on Election Night last November.

Still, Trump’s inauguration may have been the most live-streamed event in history, signaling both the rapid growth of online live video services and the launch of a presidency uniquely suited to social media. After all, this is the first presidential inauguration to take place after Facebook launched its live-streaming services for everyone in April 2016 and Twitter launched its live-streaming application Periscope in 2015.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brettedk.../#5246eaac3708

Here are the stats we have so far on Twitter's live stream of Trump's inauguration
The audience for Twitter's live stream of the inauguration was 23% smaller than that of the Election Day live stream. More than 70% of the audience was male, and nearly half of all viewers were between 18 to 24 years old. These figures are consistent with Twitter's audience on other recent political live streams.
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...m-stats-2017-1
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"I smell sex and candy here" - Marcy Playground
Very nice idea with the Skype Seats.

The White House is adding four ‘Skype Seats’ to its press briefings

Among the revelations at Sean Spicer’s first official White House briefing as press secretary was the newly minted administration’s plans to add a quartet of so-called “Skype Seats” to the room beginning this week.

The addition is an attempt to open the traditionally closed-off briefing up to reporters outside of the White House walls. According to Spicer, the rotating seats will be open to reporters 50 miles outside of the Washington D.C. area whose news outlets don’t already have a hard pass to the briefing room.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/23/skype-seats/



Attacked?! LOL!

This is basically showing a young man, the Trump supporter, getting hassled by an anti-trump old woman - period. This young man then calls security, and after she explains how she was burying her mother-in-law, this young man does nothing, and shes escorted off the plane. He could have been a real man and forgiven her, apologized for her loss, and maybe that would have reached her. So does this make the Trump supporter a "hero"?

Hero and Attacked are two words being used way too frequently and inaccurately nowadays.



I would have to know more of what instigated that argument to be able to make a judgement call. But one thing is clear, don't mess with airline security! It's a federal crime to impede and disobey orders on an airline from the flight staff, and that lady was foolish for taking her argument that far.



"I smell sex and candy here" - Marcy Playground
I would have to know more of what instigated that argument to be able to make a judgement call. But one thing is clear, don't mess with airline security! It's a federal crime to impede and disobey orders on an airline from the flight staff, and that lady was foolish for taking her argument that far.
Woman kicked off plane for berating Trump supporter
Koteskey, in a Facebook post, said the woman was even more discourteous to him before the cameras began rolling. He said the entire incident was touched off when she asked if Koteskey was “here to cheer or protest.” Koteskey replied he was merely in town to “celebrate democracy.”

“And I’m entitled to get drunk and puke in your lap!” the woman allegedly said. “I’m going to throw up right in your lap! You make me sick! Don’t talk to me! Don’t look at me! Don’t you dare even put your arm on that rest. You disgust me! You should be ashamed of yourself! You put a maniac’s finger on the button. You are a bigot. You should get off this plane!”
http://nypost.com/2017/01/23/woman-k...ump-supporter/



We would have to know if: she made physical contact with him, or threatened him, or if he asked her to stop talking to her, stuff like that.

These days the airlines will pull anyone off a plane that is a disturbance. And it's clear from the fact that she didn't follow the two flight attendants instructions to leave the plane, that she was a disturbance... finally it took security to pull her off. So she was in the wrong there.

But I couldn't help but hear, USA, USA, USA chants on the plane, what the freaking hell does that have to do with anything!? That gave me the creeps.



I really don't understand these videos that circulate. It's quite possible I have never talked politics with a complete stranger. Let alone get into any kind of argument or altercation. I really think we are a country of infants.
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"I smell sex and candy here" - Marcy Playground
What's even more shocking, is that he was flying back to Seattle. Isn't that blue territory? He may not even be a Trump supporter.

EDIT: Scratch that, Fox has him labelled as a Trump supporter. He was interviewed from Montana.
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/01/2...orter-next-her



Welcome to the human race...
Iro, over the course of this discussion you've questioned my motives.

I think it's pretty clear that I'm motivated by a desire to see a global unification against terrorism (including the overt & extremist misogyny inherent within the ideology), not just in a military respect, but the entire world uniting in one voice to say that we - yes, even we civilians wherever you may find us - are not going to stand for it anymore and we are no longer afraid to say so.

If the only answer as to why that does not occur is that the world is too afraid of Islamic Terrorism (and will only stick to publicly opposing "safe" targets like the U.S. President) then it become obvious that Terrorism has met one of its primary goals and has already won - we might as well all surrender and declare Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as chief Caliph over all the Earth.

P.S. Thanks to Yoda for keeping an open mind and not casting unfounded aspersions.
As I pointed out earlier, I have no idea what such protest would even accomplish. You already live in a state where the previous and current administrations publicly oppose ISIS and are engaged in militarised conflict with them, so your opposition to ISIS as a citizen of said state is more or less implicit. Under these circumstances, do you really need to do a public demonstration declaring your opposition? ISIS already know and don't care that you hate them and want to "protest" them. That's kind of their business model. Not going to the effort of showing up to get angry at them does not automatically mean that you are "too afraid" of them. Just because you take cover on a battlefield instead of charging the enemy and screaming does not automatically mean that you are "too afraid" to fight them, but that you are at least aware that there are other options aside from impulsively trying to attack as soon as possible.

Also, just because ISIS is a threat (and I am not saying that it isn't) doesn't mean that I have to automatically consider Trump an acceptable choice - even with the understanding that he is functioning as a necessary evil. There are more ramifications to his appointment than just his approach to ISIS; "ISIS is bad" is quite possibly the least controversial stance he holds, so that's why I barely register it when assessing him as either a person or a politician. Boiling it down to this whole "we can't let the terrorists win" thing doesn't help matters.

I've known Captain Steel for a long time, even before I came to MoFo. He's a good internet friend, an intelligent & informed person, and I invited him here to MoFo.
I can vouch for him, he's no troll...

If you wonder why he's so adamant in his hate for ISIS, it's because he understands that ISIS is a real threat to the welfare of humanity and democracy...they are not just a group of thugs. He knows ISIS is a spreading ideology of violence and suppression that has the power of religion behind it, and coupled with political aspirations, which makes ISIS the most dangerous idea on the planet.

I believe Captain Steel feels that Trump is our best chance to stop the spread of radicalized Islam. I know Steel isn't a fan of Trump per say, but I will venture a guess based on what I know of Steel, that he finds the global women marches against Trump laudable, as Trump isn't in the same evil league as ISIS...and yet people are reluctant to call radicalize Islam what it truly is: an evil that is based on their twisted religious beliefs...and in the west we find criticizing any religious beliefs to be politically incorrect. Though we have no problem protesting a president.
"Laudable"?

It is possible to be accepting of Islam in general and still find the actions of ISIS to be reprehensible, so the idea that the only reason Islamic terrorism flourishes is because people are afraid of being politically incorrect strikes me as an opportunistic reach that doesn't help matters (which I did say in my previous post). Nobody accuses me of being politically incorrect when I criticise Mike Pence for letting his religious beliefs inform his approach to politics.
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This is definitely not the kind of protest that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. talked about (but then he was a Christian & civil rights activist, not a politically correct Leftist).

today on, another white person using MLK for their own crappy keeping people in check quota...
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I think there's an important distinction between the abhorrent "MLK would have said..." and the much more reasonable "MLK actually told us exactly what he thought about this."

But kid gloves, regardless.



IMO...MLK would approve of the coming together of people of all race, creed or color to protest a bully who would impede the rights of Americans.

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

If he was alive today, MLK imo would have been adding his voice to the millions around the world who don't want to see the most powerful nation in the world openly endorse fervent nationalism, while retarding the rights of the free press and making a mockery out of America.





"I smell sex and candy here" - Marcy Playground
If he was alive today, MLK imo would have been adding his voice to the millions around the world who don't want to see the most powerful nation in the world openly endorse fervent nationalism, while retarding the rights of the free press and making a mockery out of America.
I think he would be wearing a B/W striped jersey and playing referee between the white feminists, male feminists, non-white feminists, regular women with children, regular women without children and Madonna.



today on, another white person using MLK for their own crappy keeping people in check quota...
Can a black person not discuss the ideologies of a white activist?
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Yeah, there's no body mutilation in it



"I smell sex and candy here" - Marcy Playground
For anyone interested, the very Liberal CBC published this opinion piece. I was surprised.

Hey, journalists: Give the pedantic, pointless Donald Trump fact-checking a rest
Fact-checking loses its value if it is perceived as a petty partisan exercise
http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/pedan...king-1.3953796



Yeah, but wouldn't it be better if we beat them before allowing years of warfare and genocide to happen first?



I suppose not.



Then the question becomes whether you reject it as an absurd non sequitur or if you actually think about what kind of circumstances would lead to someone genuinely making such a claim. If the concern with radical Islam is that it controls state governments and has them implement policies that have negative consequences for certain demographics, then consider what the U.S. government does that would merit such a comparison. The reason I brought up the GOP's plan to repeal the ACA (even though they were having trouble agreeing on a suitable replacement plan) is because that is a government policy where the consequences will negatively affect certain demographics. The major concern with getting rid of it completely is that preventing people from being able to access health care would ultimately lead to people being unable to get better from illnesses and eventually dying. If a person dies because government legislature prevents them from being cured, does that not mean that the state is indirectly responsible for their death? It may not involve death squads straight-up murdering people on explicitly religious grounds, but does that mean the deaths that do happen are automatically more acceptable? That's without taking actual religious/conservative American politicians like Pence into account, though that could fill a paragraph on its own. All I'm saying is that maybe there's a reason people are concerned enough to make such an extreme comparison.



They're both ideologically driven movements that have an invested interest in amassing political power, though I'll concede there are differences between the two and that the practical enforcement of one ideology can be more readily observed than with the other (though who knows how much that'll change with Steve Bannon of all people as chief White House strategist). As for whether or not I should take Steel's concern at face value, I think that is admittedly the result of spending so long on the defensive and being unable to tell at a glance whether a question is coming from a place of genuine interest or actually does have an ulterior motive (as with aforementioned "concern trolls", which I've spent far too much time dealing with on here alone). At least now that he's elaborated on it to a satisfactory extent I can at least respond in kind, but the particular phrasing of the original post was structured in a way that didn't seem quite right to me.



The added context didn't help matters, that's for sure.



I sort of touched on this already, but I guess the main question would be to ask not what the protest is about but who the protest is aimed towards. Almost everyone agrees that Islamic State is bad regardless of their own political or religious affiliations and there are already efforts to attack regions where they are known to be a presence. However, the state of international diplomacy and the military capabilities of various nations makes further intervention a difficult and untenable situation. That's another problem with Trump - between his volatile personality and political inexperience, the reason why people are so afraid that he'll use nukes or whatnot is that such a decision (even against an universally disagreeable group like IS) could end up setting off a world war because it would disregards the delicate tensions between various opposing nations. One of his campaign points was that he would be tougher on ISIS, which may sound impressive to the voter base but isn't necessarily so practical in reality.

To tie this all back into the question of why people don't protest IS - what would be the point? Everyone knows it's bad and, as you acknowledge later on, such protests would paint people as targets for IS. The only real protests would be coming from people who wanted the government to be even tougher on ISIS (and their more practical course of action would have been to support a leader who planned to get tougher on ISIS), but that's off-set by the fact that there's no telling what the consequences of greater direct action against ISIS would be.



Yet in your next paragraph you say that the reason is because there is no protection against terrorist violence. Political correctness is irrelevant in this case, so bringing it up like this doesn't help anyone.



Yeah, well, it's only been a few days. With stuff like Sean Spicer's press conference and Kellyanne Conway's "alternative facts" becoming such memetic instances of the Trump administration's inability to handle the truth, people do question how far they'll go to contradict those who oppose them even in the form of peaceful protest. At the very least, I don't think people's concerns about these being the circumstances to give rise to all-out fascism are totally overreacting.



You did kind of answer your own question in that last paragraph.