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FILMFREAK087's Avatar
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11-10-08
Okay, first off I don't see what's so great about Kill bill, I mean I loved Tarantino's early stuff, but KB just seemed so over the top and unlike his other films. I understand it is suppose to be a homage to 70's Kung-Fu and even some Western films, but it seems like a big collection of cliche's. This movie seemed very one-dimensional, a by-the-numbers revenge story, which felt scarce in terms of Tarantino's lively character dialog, which also seemed phoned-in this time around compared to Pulp fiction and Reservoir dogs. Ultimately, I just couldn't get into it, I would almost swear it wasn't his work had I not known otherwise. Secondly, I personally don't think Uma is very attractive and really haven't been blown away by most of her work.
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Otth's Avatar
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11-10-08
You are not alone.

Tarantino is the most overrated director I know. He has an army of fanboys elevating him to godhood even though he hasn’t made a really good movie since the early 90’s. After Pulp Fiction all he have made is mediocre movies which contains elements that is borderline plagiarism.
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dvdsy's Avatar
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11-10-08
Fine, you want unpopular opinions?

I'll trash this forum's two favorite films--lord of the rings and star wars.

Both are whiny childrens movies!



Otth's Avatar
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11-10-08
Originally Posted by dvdsy
Fine, you want unpopular opinions?

I'll trash this forum's two favorite films--lord of the rings and star wars.

Both are whiny childrens movies!
Funny you say that. This is actually the consensus at one of the other forums I frequent.



Sedai's Avatar
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A system of cells interlinked
11-10-08
First off, who said LotR and Star Wars were "this forums" favorite films? I presume you mean all the members of the forum as a collective, in which case that is still a pretty sizable stack of horse-apples. Did you average out everyone's favorite films to come to this conclusion? Neither series is on my top 10...

Meanwhile, as to what you said... Those films ARE children's movies, so I am not sure of your point... As for being whiney...what do you mean? Whiney characters? Whiney premise? Clearly, there is an encyclopedias worth of subtext in these films, so there is certainly stuff for adults to dig into, but, they ARE fantasy films, after all.

I think any film or set of films that focus on kids becoming adults, while having to pass through difficult trials will have a certain amount of whining in them, as that is what young adults do when presented with the stark reality of the world.

That said, I didn't find LotR to be particularly whiney, and one must certainly recognize the technical achievements of the films.
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FILMFREAK087's Avatar
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11-10-08
Originally Posted by dvdsy
Fine, you want unpopular opinions?

I'll trash this forum's two favorite films--lord of the rings and star wars.

Both are whiny childrens movies!
Well, I can half understand. I am not a big fan of LOTR, but I do enjoy the original star wars trilogy. I think Star Wars started out as entertainment for all ages, then after decades of merchandising and diluting of the story-telling, by injection of cartoonish characters and esoteric plot lines it has mutated into something different entirely.



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11-10-08
I understand honestly. I have never seen a Fisher Price or Golden Books picture book of The Lord of the Rings.

Then you have the PG and PG-13 ratings. I see where this is going.



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11-10-08
Originally Posted by Sedai
First off, who said LotR and Star Wars were "this forums" favorite films? I presume you mean all the members of the forum as a collective, in which case that is still a pretty sizable stack of horse-apples. Did you average out everyone's favorite films to come to this conclusion? Neither series is on my top 10...

Meanwhile, as to what you said... Those films ARE children's movies, so I am not sure of your point... As for being whiney...what do you mean? Whiney characters? Whiney premise? Clearly, there is an encyclopedias worth of subtext in these films, so there is certainly stuff for adults to dig into, but, they ARE fantasy films, after all.

I think any film or set of films that focus on kids becoming adults, while having to pass through difficult trials will have a certain amount of whining in them, as that is what young adults do when presented with the stark reality of the world.

That said, I didn't find LotR to be particularly whiney, and one must certainly recognize the technical achievements of the films.
I wouldn't call LotR children's movies, the books certainly weren't children's books. "Focus on kids becoming adults"? There aren't any kids in LotR... isn't Frodo, like, 24? And the story's overall themes are without doubt pretty mature stuff. I know many adults who love the films.



Sedai's Avatar
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A system of cells interlinked
11-10-08
Interesting. The subtext is certainly about coming of age, and in Hobbit years, Frodo is certainly a young adult. I already posted at length about these films, which I will now paste into this thread, because I don't wish to retype it all...

This is from late '03 or so, in response to someone stating LotR didn't contain any allegory or metaphor, which is somewhat related here, but not completely. It does cover what we were talking about, though:

Originally Posted by Sedai in 2003
On the other hand, lobbing comments about how the metaphors don't exist in a work, when they obviously do, escapes reason. LotR has these concepts in spades. They are, by no stretch of the imagination, new concepts. They have been around since the beginning of recorded language and history, and I'm sure, before. Pure escapism doesn't sit well with people, it's a fad, flickering out at the first sign of the next one. The reason stories like Star Wars, Harry Potter, LotR, The Oddyssy, and many others persist longer than a few weeks or months, is because they rooted in something deeper than what they present superficially. There is hidden context and lesson about life and history that we as a race are obsessed with.

Something like:

A young would-be hero, stuck in a task based mundane life style, struggles to escape the rigors of everyday life. A problem (usually created by ancestors/parents) presents itself and becomes the young would-be hero's problem. The hero is then whisked out of his mundane lifestyle only to be faced with a much larger, twisted version of the world. Inextricably caught in this now massive strugle vs a mechanistic, totalitarian hegemony, these hobbits/rebels/wizards/heros become an icon for the idea that one must not be swept up by the world...dissolved and broken down.

Still not seeing any metaphor?

Stormtroopers maybe seeming a bit like Nazis perhaps? I mean, hell, that was the name of the nazi troops for crying out loud. Stormtroopers!! It's the same story mechanics. Orcs and Mordor, Stormtroopers and the empire, machines and the evil A.I.

If these stories were just random events with no rhyme or reason and no relation to our society, pure escapism at it's essence so to speak, we wouldn't care about it...at all. We want to know about us!! Not the regular us, oh no. The super hero fantastic us. The giant spider killing, courageous us. As stated before, the evil must come from us as well. The problem has to be created by our ancestors in family or race. An ever growing snowball of terror crashing inexorably towards us with little time to spare.

To me , the LotR Trilogy, and many others before them using the same paradigm, are absolutely dripping with social allegory and historical metaphor. A lot of the same metaphor and allegory adjusted for the current society, to be sure. So, I guess that means it all comes down to presentation.

Now just what films present these ideas with the most expressive, high quality art through acting, production design, and filmmaking?


Only the names change.

Cheers all



rice1245's Avatar
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Let's try to be broad-minded about this
11-10-08
They had all four LOTR books in my library in Elementary School.
are you suggesting that elementary schoolers can read and interpret JRR Tolkein's writing?

Nice post Sed, i agreed with most of it

and where did this lotR thing come from? the capitalizing of the R and nothing else is what i'm referring to



king_of_movies_316's Avatar
The King of Movies
11-10-08
Originally Posted by dvdsy
Fine, you want unpopular opinions?

I'll trash this forum's two favorite films--lord of the rings and star wars.

Both are whiny childrens movies!
I agree with you on Star Wars. Although i havent seen LOTF i doubt it is a childs movie as i heard the plot was confusing and that the films went for a very long time.



Sedai's Avatar
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A system of cells interlinked
11-10-08
Sesame Street?

So, by that axiom, anything kiddish is Sesame Street and vice-versa?

That is a pretty weak induction, if you ask me....

They aren't films aimed at toddlers, that's for sure, but at their heart, these films are fables, and very child-like in their trappings to a pretty large extent.

Here is an article discussion Star Wars, with a Lucas interview, and the films are talked about as capturing the hearts of a generation (mine, to be exact) and how the new films were aimed at doing the same thing with a new generation of, you guessed it, kids.

Article

The article isn't about the target audience, but the stance it takes is clear.

Meanwhile, my first response was an answer to someone else's allegation that there were just "whiny kids movies".

I agree they are kids movies to a certain extent, but, they are ALSO so much more, so you are kind of agreeing with me while arguing with me. I think they can be considered kids films, but they are also of interest for adults.

At this point in my life I am more interested in examining the allegory in these films, so that is where my interest, as an adult, lies with these films.

Alas, when I watch Star Wars these days, and Luke is sitting there complaining about having to pick up power converters or how it's just impossible or some other whine-ass activity, and I can absolutely see the validity in the above complaint about Star Wars being a "whiny kids movie".

I am not bothered by this stuff, as i grew up LIVING these films, but I can see the "whiny/kiddish" angle when I approach the films objectively.

Anyway, to be clear, I disagree with the poster for the most part, in that again, I think there is so much more to be had with these films, and I do think LotR is certainly more adult in its tone, especially the third film.

I read LotR in the 6th grade, so to me, they remind me of childhood, and my childlike wonder while reading them.



rice1245's Avatar
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Let's try to be broad-minded about this
11-10-08
i read LOTR in fifth grade, i got the plot but understood practically nothing



Otth's Avatar
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11-10-08
Originally Posted by king_of_movies_316
Although i havent seen LOTF i doubt it is a childs movie as i heard the plot was confusing and that the films went for a very long time.
Nobody here was saying that Lord of the Flies was a childs movie. :P



Sedai's Avatar
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A system of cells interlinked
11-10-08
I certainly didn't understand the subtext of this stuff when I was a kid...

An article in which Lucas attempts to defend his stilted dialogue:

Here



Sawman3's Avatar
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A PHD in Whiskey and Stonerology
11-10-08
Originally Posted by rice1245
and where did this lotR thing come from? the capitalizing of the R and nothing else is what i'm referring to
You capitalize the 'L' too.

Lord of the Rings = LotR

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