Top 5 Westerns

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I don't think anyone said you committed any great crime.


And those are the ones I like best too. I just thought I would list some of my favorites. In particular I recommend the Ranown cycle.
Groovy! I thought I had offended sensibilities.
Hence I was getting a bit snippy. Sorry.


Well, we can always learn and discover more. So I shall ride forthwith to check out some of those Westerns you listed.
I fancy the sound of Mann's "Man of the West" and "The Hanging Tree" (which I have never heard of).

Which of the Budd Boetticher's would you really recommend?



Just ordered these from Amazon by the way.


"7 Men from Now" -special edition with what sounds like a great Documentary.

"The Far Country"

"Man of the West"



So many good movies, so little time.
In the Ranown cycle Boetticher kept making the same movie with small changes. It seems like he was trying to get it right. Even though the stories are similiar they are facinating to watch back to back, A new boxed set finally came out last year.


Here is a good article on them.

I probably liked Seven Men from Now and Comanche Station best. And I highly recommend The Hanging Tree. I am still shocked every time I see it.
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In the Ranown cycle Boetticher kept making the same movie with small changes. It seems like he was trying to get it right. Even though the stories are similiar they are facinating to watch back to back, A new boxed set finally came out last year.


Here is a good article on them.

I probably liked Seven Men from Now and Comanche Station best. And I highly recommend The Hanging Tree. I am still shocked every time I see it.
Well "7 Men" is on the way.
And sadly "Tree" is only around on a very expensive VHS and an even more expensive Euro DVD.

I shall let you know how I get on with those 3 I have ordered above.



Well I did already say aside from the Mann/Stewart films and many Wayne movies.

But even "The Searchers" (a film I still like a great deal) is hurt by this attitude due to some of that 'Ford' humour that slips in (great in SOME films, but none should appear in a film like this!), just to take that edge off.
The stunning and dark 'shooting the eyes out' scene is then followed by humourous dialogue exchanges with the Wayne/Ford regulars after, that come more from "North to Alaska" than a tough plotline such as this.

It may not be acceptable to say so...But the similar 'Posse interaction' and posse set-up in Michael Winner's "Chato's Land" (no great classic, but a deadly serious film for a deadly serious plotline) does it MUCH better.
As Wayne fan I love that Wayne humour. Fine in "Rio Bravo"...Damn out of place in "The Searchers"

"Red River"?! Except the ending?
Well the ending is rather important to a film for one thing.
And in fact that Christ awful travesty of a finale sums up so much of what I have said and proves my point on certain problematic aspects of many of these films I have.
That ending was the very definition of the clean cut, keep the kid and Mums happy, attitude of the time in so many Westerns.
Even those that don't warrant such an ending due to everything else that happened before.
If "Red River" was originally made in the 70's...You would not be saying 'except for the ending'. As that would never get past the written page let alone actually appearing in the film.

I'm all for lighthearted Westerns...If they ARE lighthearted Westerns. "Red River" was not meant to be one..but it's ending is. It stinks like a prairie dog!

"The Cowboys" from 1972 (see my point!) was far more honest and dramatically satisfying (though still effectively sentimental and moving) yet is sadly neglected, but it leaves the ever-lauded "Red River" in the dust.
It may only be the ending that kills "Red River"...But that's big enough and it does indeed leave it well and truly, stone cold, dead.

I have the exact same problem (obviously the very final scene aside) with Mann's "The Furies", where this wonderful dark tale of bubbling incest, murder, revenge and betrayal turns into an 'all is forgiven, lets stroll hand in hand laughing to restart our love 'n' friendship' plot wrap-up! What a sacharine con job!
Thank God for vengeful old Women to save at least some dignity from this dreadful finale that again would not see light of day if the film was made later.

And I never said ALL Westerns from that era either. And i'd put my 'Top 5' well above any of those mentioned above.
And in fact I don't agree that some of those you mentioned are not as i described in a good 80% of what we see in them.
"Stagecoach" may have a happy hooker ending...but the rest is a another example of 'clean and classic'. Right down to Wayne's silly school playground nickname!
It most certainly has fine moments, but is hurt by the time it was made and attitude it then had to have and be filmed with.
But that's okay...it just kills any chances of it appearing anywhere near a Top 30 Western lists I could name. But that's MY list.

And even the Mann/Stewart films ultimately tend to soften and lose their edge in time for the end credits.
Which is okay...but....well....hmm...

And in fact many of those I have seen...not seen all...are in fact EXACTLY what I was saying as far as the visual look of them goes.
Rugged chins, damn good shaves, pressed shirts and gleaming teeth, bright and shiny towns and no dirt to be seen.

Hell fire currently there is an Audi Murphy Western on from as late as 1961, "Posse from Hell"...and the faces on everyone GLEAM! Stubble? ****ing baby skin is rougher looking.
Clothes look like Jill from Wardrobe just made 'em (Because she has) and there was so much gleaming whitewash and pastel shades on buildings it looked more like Disney than Peckinpah.
Even a leather jacket was polished to a mirror shine.
Dialogue was damn near 'Well gee, shucks' and this thing can even make (yes, okay, it got mentioned at least) make the announcement of a rape sound like a slight case of hiccups.

But that's okay! Because that is what many Westerns, I seem to have committed a great crime by calling 'clean cut' (for want of a better expression), for many years were like and they served a need then and hold a cuddly place in viewers hearts now.

It's just not my thing.

I sense much defensiveness here...I have a view I have explained in detail (no 'this movie sux' garbage I think you would agree) my reasoning, but I have a love for a certain type of Western and a certain era of Western film making and that's that.
You make a good point and argue it well. I enjoy hearing your viewpoint.



Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
Yeah, me too, no matter how obvious it is that you haven't rethought your opinion at all after the ONE time you watched all those films you mentioned.
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Five of the films, in the above quoted post alone, I have seen 3 or 4 times over the years actually,

And do you mean have a done a u-turn on sincerely held beliefs about something I have experienced and thought about?
No, I haven't.

But I have asked for some examples of the 'older', 'classic' Westerns that I have not seen to give them a chance. And because of that I have just spent my own good money on buying 3 of them. One of which is sitting in front of me now.
I call that rather open minded actually.



Well I checked out "7 Men from Now"

Great DVD by the way...Lots of interesting extras.

It starts off with a truly awful song (in fact it seems both screenwriter Burt Kennedy and Director Budd Boetticher also hated it) but this moves into a very good opening sequence as Randolph Scott kills the first of the seven men who shot his Wife.
In fact the sequence is so good it should have been a PRE-credit sequence as it would have led into the film very well. Just as that wonderful opening scene of "Cahill".

Randolph Scott is rigid, uptight, driven and pretty emotionless as the revenge seeking ex-Sheriff. It kind of works for the role, but i still say he's a rather unexciting and non-descript actor.

Luckily though the mighty Lee Marvin is in support and he does a superb job.
His character is ruthless, scheming and dangerous...but thanks to Kennedy's script and Marvin's ever watchable style his character is also a likeble, charming rogue.

Kennedy's, otherwise sharp, script messes up in one place for me though...Exactly why did a character not wait a paltry 60 seconds to let the bad guys ride out of town before walking over to the Sheriff's Office!? It was utterly non-sensical.

The rest of the score is also non-event, being filled with cookie cutter strings and horns. It is at it's worse during the 'romance' angle of the film, supplied by Gail Russell, as it drones out sickly sweet swelling violins.
The romance has an edge to it (as Russell is married) and is never actually sealed and the tragic Russell does a good job.
But I just don't like 'classic' Western love stories as they bog the stroy down, are generally cloying and saccharine and (as here) are visually crafted like a Hallmark Valentine's Day card.

But there is much to enjoy here, the action is pretty good, Marvin is a gem, Scott is rugged enough, there's a good plot twist later on (that is beautifully ironic as far as Marvin's character goes) and some of the dialogue exchanges are wonderful.

It's not going to ever knock off any of my Top 10 Westerns, or make me love 'clean and classic' Westerns and their (it seems even here, inescapeble) dated style over later American Westerns from the late 60's-70's and many Spaghetti Westerns...
But it was a good, lean, solid film with many plus points and worth a watch for the great Lee Marvin alone.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
42nd Street Freak:

What is your opinion of Ride the High Country? I thought Scott was very impressive in that.



A wonderful movie and Randolph Scott's last film.
Has any other actor gone out with a better last movie?
We actually have a thread devoted to that topic, HERE. And I'll still go with Richard Farnsworth in The Straight Story.
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42nd Street Freak:

What is your opinion of Ride the High Country? I thought Scott was very impressive in that.
Don't think I've seen it. Is that his last Western?
*EDIT*..Oh, yes, it was! LOL!

So...Worth a go then guys? As it is quite expensive.


"Man of the West" just arrived today. Checking it out ASAP.



Big thanks Will!


Recklessly different with her red hair and freckles.



Looks pretty good actually...Hmmm....On the 'to do' list.



"Man of the West"
HUGE thanks to 'UconJack' for putting me onto this.
Thoughts;

A big surprise!
The often excellent Director Anthony Mann's penultimate Western starts off like any old 'classic' Western, with an annoyingly cloying and jaunty score playing over shots of a town and it's population that all look like they fell off a 'pastel shades' colour chart.

Legend of the Western Gary Cooper appears at first to be doing a lightly comic turn as the initially dull, if likeable, Link Jones. Added to how the film opened, I was fearing the worst.
But it seems Mann was playing a naughty game with us.

Suddenly (after an enjoyably farcical train ride..those were the days) Mann lets rip with his twisted gang of robbers led by Dock Tobin (a brilliantly mad and scary Lee J. Cobb).
From here on in this goes from a jaunty pastel paradise to a bleak, unforgiving plummet into pitch blackness.

Cobb has played tough, strict, rock hard characters before, but i've never seen him essay a character so deranged and twisted as here. Plastered in a grey old beard and ragged clothes Tobin lurches through the film dishing out spittle sprayed venom and ruthless violence.

Cooper also has a chance now to reveal another side of Link Jones, and suddenly the comic air about him has vanished and been replaced by shame, desperation and unleashed violence.
He bounces off Cobb just fine, but really gets his teeth into his scenes with a young Jack Lord as Coaley, the most unstable member of the gang.
Some good verbal sparring leads into a devil of a fistfight as Cooper, Lord and their stunt doubles go through an unusually extended and bloody duel.
But it's not the fight itself that really shocks here, it's the sudden madness that overcomes Cooper's Link (we're a long way from "High Noon" here!) as he starts to literally (and very violently) rip the clothes off the bloodied, screaming Coaley until the man is reduced to a sobbing, blood caked wreck dressed now only in his long-johns!

Even today this brutal scene of frenzied retribution is strong stuff, especially coming from the likes of the normally clean cut and heroic Cooper.

This outstanding sequence's retribution happens because of an earlier sequence where Lord's leering gunman makes a terrified Julie London strip down to her corset, as he holds a knife to the helpless Link's throat.
So even before this clothes ripping fistfight shocker, Mann had started to walk us into a very dark place indeed. And not a place you would expect to be in during a 1950's Gary Cooper Western!
The entire sequence is an uncomfortable pre-cursor to the same sort of scenes (of a brutal, leering gang of psychopaths normally invading someone's home) that would make up many a Grindhouse Exploitation film of the 70's/80's. Though she would have been stripped naked by then.
In "Man of the West" the striking (and excellent) Ms London only gets down to her corset, but this scene is amazingly close to the infamous 'strip the blonde girl' sequence in Ruggero Deodato's "House on the Edge of the Park", a full 22 years later.

When we add the generally dark plot of inescapable pasts and destinies, deceit, multiple deaths (one involving a wailing gut shot man really sticks out) and much twisted sadism (the reveal of an off-screen event during the finale...rather thrown away during the very end though sadly...is stunningly bleak, nasty and unexpected) you have one of the darkest, tough and (for the time especially) uncompromising Westerns you will ever see from Hollywood.

Some of the 'Classic Western' styling is still rather dated for my tastes and the very end scene (though any romance is explicitly ruled out, which is unusual) lacks the punch of what came before, something not helped by that annoyingly cheesy and jaunty score appearing again.

Overall though this is excellent, surprising and hard as nails film making done with a master's touch.

In fact "Man of the West" was heavily cut upon it's initial UK cinema release, and certainly earns it's uncut '12' DVD certificate today, and then some.



Watching The Deadly Trackers. First time I have seen this in about twenty years.
Wow. Great actors, really good script.

That said – the directing is a frigging joke. The editing is comical and the attempted imitation of The Wild Bunch (by the producer & director) is flat out moronic.

On top of this, they actually robbed Jerry Fielding’s score for The Wild Bunch and play it throughout the movie. This is flat out criminal, in my opinion. I don’t give flying F who owns the rights, that music belongs to Sam Peckinpah and his movie, The Wild Bunch.
What a joke.
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Any thoughts on "Terror in a Texas Town" anyone?

The idea of the hero using a harpoon in a 50's Western seems ominous.
Surely due to censorship he will either never really use it, or whenver he does it will be all off screen. How can you show someone getting run through and skewered with a massive harpoon without the film getting into trouble?

Any thoughts, let me know.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
I don't know, but I'd like to see that. Joseph Lewis was a very stylish director. Gun Crazy is amazing.



01. Unforgiven (1992)
02. Once Upon a Time in the West (1968)
03. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966)
04. High Noon (1952)
05. One-Eyed Jacks (1961)

Need to see The Wild Bunch.
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micheelcorleone
Need to see The Wild Bunch.

I cannot give a stonger recommendation.

Also:
Ride The High Country (1962)
Major Dundee (1965)
The Ballad Of Cable Hogue (1970)
Pat Garrett & Billy The Kid (special edition 1973/2005)

.... because the little man in my avatar window was awesome.
Sam Peckinpah was a true artist.