Conspiracy Theories

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Since this thread has been bumped... one of the biggest recent stories that fits the topic is the Covid-19 origins.

For over a year, anyone who even brought up the idea of a lab origin for the virus was called a conspiracy theorist (in some cases even called "racist" for mentioning the possibility) and there seemed to be a concerted effort to silence anyone who'd voice or entertain this theory.

But now, after a little more evidence comes out that makes the lab origin seem far more probable, even those who accused others of being conspiracy theorists are giving the theory credence.

But what seems to be lacking is any withdrawal, retraction, correction or apology from those who labeled others "crazy conspiracy theorists" or other names for a theory they are now saying is not only possible, but probable.



Since this thread has been bumped... one of the biggest recent stories that fits the topic is the Covid-19 origins.

For over a year, anyone who even brought up the idea of a lab origin for the virus was called a conspiracy theorist (in some cases even called "racist" for mentioning the possibility) and there seemed to be a concerted effort to silence anyone who'd voice or entertain this theory.

But now, after a little more evidence comes out that makes the lab origin seem far more probable, even those who accused others of being conspiracy theorists are giving the theory credence.

But what seems to be lacking is any withdrawal, retraction, correction or apology from those who labeled others "crazy conspiracy theorists" or other names for a theory they are now saying is not only possible, but probable.
I agree that the initial "consensus" response was irresponsible, and we're already seeing some use the pseudo-logic of "if it's this, then that" to further question everything from mask efficacy to the 2020 election.


I became intrigued by the theory of the lab-leak with the release of two State Dept. cables, reported by Josh Rogin in the Washington Post. Here's the best rundown of Rogin's reporting. When it became clear that Pompeo had deliberately leaked these (incomplete) cables, as a way to shift blame from Trump's horrendously botched response to the outbreak back to the CCP, many in the mainstream were content to ignore it. However, two things can quite frequently be simultaneously true: the cables have been shown to be authentic, and Trump still, through a combination of arrogance, inepitude and deceit, greatly exacerbated the pain and death the Americans suffered from the virus. (And, ironically, the portion of the cables that Pompeo chose not to release show that the Trump admin refused WIV's request for additional funding and training for the safety protocols that could have prevented the leak.)


What we can determine as fact is that the CCP engaged in a massive cover-up, restricting acess to the patients and their medical records, engaging in mass cremations of victims, shutting down any media access to the area, and arresting any medical professional who spoke out against the party narrative. As we've seen in other conspiracies, the cover-up itself allows room for the kind of vacuous ambiguity that enables speculation to thrive. But the fact is that due to this cover-up, we may never have the evidence necessary to confirm what actually happened.


What ended up being more persuasive for me is when I looked back at the little-noticed but still very publicly available news surrounding the WIV's efforts in the years prior to the outbreak. Shi Zhengli was an internationally recognized WIV scientist studying SARS-CoV for a decade. In 2017, WIV scientists released a paper (here's the layman article at the time, and here's the full paper) which noted that they had extracted up to 15 variations of SARS-CoV virus from a bat cave in Yunnan, and that these samples were being held at the Wuhan lab (note the use of 'WIV' as individual viral prefix identifiers). (fwiw, Yunnan is nowhere near Wuhan, being some thousand miles away in southwest China). The actual paper is pretty dense for someone (like me) who doesn't hold a degree in virology, but it does have a couple of important quotes which stand out: "In this cave, we have now obtained full-length genome sequences of additional 11 novel SARSr-CoVs from bats"; "In addition, we have also revealed that various SARSr-CoVs capable of using human ACE2 are still circulating among bats in this region." So WIV had a dozen strains of coronavirus from bats who were 1000 miles from Wuhan on the other side of the country, and that at least some of these strains already showed a possible capability of direct human infection, via the ACE2 lung receptors. (In addition, the wet market in Wuhan did not sell bats; it was a seafood market.)



The primary rationale for shooting down the lab-leak theory was that the virus' genome showed no evidence of laboratory manipulation or tampering. But the stated purpose of the research involved "monitoring of SARSr-CoV evolution", not genetic engineering. (For the record, we should throw the entire 'bioweapon' theory out for complete lack of evidence.) Did this research involve exposing these SARS samples to the DNA of other animals, or, possibly, human cellular tissue in order to monitor its natural mutations? Does the use of 'chimeric viruses' to augment the proteins of SARS-CoV amount to what's called 'gain-of-function'? I've seen arguments on all sides of these questions, but I haven't seen much in the way of consensus. And with the omission of any actual WIV documentation, it's unlikely that we'll have any. But, long story short, the excuse that the genome showed no evidence of laboratory engineering is now shown to be irrelevent given the fact that the research was designed to look as natural as possible (which is the only way it would be beneficial for the purpose of studying how it would naturally mutate).


One other thing that I will weigh in on, which is that I think that the recent attempt to paint Dr. Fauci as some sort of diabolical villain in all of this is so obviously erroneous that this alone should be an effective metric for whether to take anyone's theory seriously. All of the Rand Paul's and Scott Atlas' of the world are just sore about Fauci proving their feeble and cruel notions of herd immunity patently false, and, for them, this is their paleocivic version of payback. As Steve Bannon said, Fauci didn't "get with the program".



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I was joking before, cuz i'm honestly a little sick of conspiracy theories (there are conspiracies everywhere, duh...), but on a serious note i was in ""9/11 truth" during college, around 11 years ago. I was won over by the idea that "building 7 couldn't have collapsed on its own, and the twin towers looked like controlled demolitions but may not have been". I no longer believe this trash, even though ithink one should not suspend their disbelief right off the bat.


One thing I've learned over the years (some radical writer talked about this), is that the news media basically elects the president. I don't vote, but i've watched the last two U.S. elections. During the first one, the news media just really liked trump because he was great for their ratings, and exploded all of his petty controversies and idiocies. The result is he beat hillary pretty badly, and hillary ****ed up by trying to portray all trump voters as "deplorables". This mistake not only effected her run, but had a net-negative impact on the democratic party for years to come.


However, the news media went in the opposite direction this time around. People have been anxious for COVID to be put under control and for trump's psychotic twitter-fest to come to a halt. I was pretty divided on who i thought was going to win, but after news media people started portraying biden as "the more empathetic candidate", trumps fate was sealed, and trumps debate performance ensured his defeat.


I think trump is going to have a much better chance of winning this second time around, given that the COVID nightmare has chilled out a little since, but he may have already ruined his chances since his social media account got banned by twitter, and he will be remembered by the establishment as a dangerous psycho.


Anyone else wanna speculate???



I was joking before, cuz i'm honestly a little sick of conspiracy theories (there are conspiracies everywhere, duh...), but on a serious note i was in ""9/11 truth" during college, around 11 years ago. I was won over by the idea that "building 7 couldn't have collapsed on its own, and the twin towers looked like controlled demolitions but may not have been". I no longer believe this trash, even though ithink one should not suspend their disbelief right off the bat.


One thing I've learned over the years (some radical writer talked about this), is that the news media basically elects the president. I don't vote, but i've watched the last two U.S. elections. During the first one, the news media just really liked trump because he was great for their ratings, and exploded all of his petty controversies and idiocies. The result is he beat hillary pretty badly, and hillary ****ed up by trying to portray all trump voters as "deplorables". This mistake not only effected her run, but had a net-negative impact on the democratic party for years to come.


However, the news media went in the opposite direction this time around. People have been anxious for COVID to be put under control and for trump's psychotic twitter-fest to come to a halt. I was pretty divided on who i thought was going to win, but after news media people started portraying biden as "the more empathetic candidate", trumps fate was sealed, and trumps debate performance ensured his defeat.


I think trump is going to have a much better chance of winning this second time around, given that the COVID nightmare has chilled out a little since, but he may have already ruined his chances since his social media account got banned by twitter, and he will be remembered by the establishment as a dangerous psycho.


Anyone else wanna speculate???
The media definitely plays a part. Here in the UK it is equally awful. A scandal broke 2 weeks ago where the top health minister was caught on CCTV having an affair.

A newspaper broke the story with pictures on the front page. That day - the BBC did it's daily round up of the front pages of all the UK tabloid newspapers but it ommitted one - guess which one? That's right - the one with the picture of the health minister kissing his secretary. And is it a coincidence that the Director General of the BBC is a donor of the party that is in Government? I think not.

What is scary though is that you mention ratings and news channels will do whatever boosts them. That, to me, is terrifying on a Cronenbergian level - that the news channels will report whatever makes people watch their programmes. The ramifications of that on the socio-political landscsape are potentially huge.



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The media definitely plays a part. Here in the UK it is equally awful. A scandal broke 2 weeks ago where the top health minister was caught on CCTV having an affair.

A newspaper broke the story with pictures on the front page. That day - the BBC did it's daily round up of the front pages of all the UK tabloid newspapers but it ommitted one - guess which one? That's right - the one with the picture of the health minister kissing his secretary. And is it a coincidence that the Director General of the BBC is a donor of the party that is in Government? I think not.

What is scary though is that you mention ratings and news channels will do whatever boosts them. That, to me, is terrifying on a Cronenbergian level - that the news channels will report whatever makes people watch their programmes. The ramifications of that on the socio-political landscsape are potentially huge.

Videodrome was a nice surrealist commentary on televised media, that's just as relevant as it was back in 1983. People become engulfed in television, whether it's you tube, local news broadcast, and as you've pointed out simple pictures in print media also have their role to play.



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I think the CIA purposely throws out all the ridiculous crap (90% of the theories) to discredit all the legitimate ones. After all, they weaponized that word after the JFK assassination. But it works, and the "tin-foil" baloney. Has anyone ever seen someone with a "tin-foil hat"? I doubt it. Does anyone really think only ONE guy can take over a country (Guatemala, Iran in the 50s for example)? It's impossible. I'm sure there are a lot of things done by one guy, but nothing major.



Here's my go:

What has Ghislaine Maxwell got on the FBI?
Where are the cctv tapes from Epstein's townhouse? What's on them?
Why did the FBI not properly convict Epstein in Florida?
Why did the FBI not listen to the victims allegations about Epstein's abuse in the early 2000s?



It’s illogical how many people tend to dismiss conspiracy theories just because they are theories.

The word “conspiracy” just means that 2 or more people conspired together to do something…but people always try to misconstrue the definition as meaning something like “some improbable theory with no substantial evidence”… which is not what it means at all.

Sure, some are ridiculous but There are also many conspiracy theories out there that are true.

Is it really so hard to believe that people Would conspire to screw other people over for their own political or financial gain ????

Say it ain’t so !



Most of the 'tin foil hat' conspiracies are fueled by people who are driven by their overwhelming: paranoia, fear & mistrust of governmental authority, that then causes them to buy into their own self-made belief system, which comforts them in the same way religion comforts millions. It's all about the need to believe, not logical reasoning.



It’s illogical how many people tend to dismiss conspiracy theories just because they are theories.
While I'm sure some people dismiss conspiracy theories for that reason, I think most skepticism is simply a common sense demand for evidence commensurate with the size of the claim(s).

It's also illogical how, when asked for evidence, many conspiracy theorists will spend time simply trying to establish a general distrust for authority, as if that transfers cleanly to completely different times and situations.

The word “conspiracy” just means that 2 or more people conspired together to do something…but people always try to misconstrue the definition as meaning something like “some improbable theory with no substantial evidence”… which is not what it means at all.
The dictionary definition of "conspiracy" does not enhance our understanding here, since I've yet to hear anyone posit a conspiracy on the Internet that involved just two people. Making out that this is the actual threshold is a clear example of motte-and-bailey.

Is it really so hard to believe that people Would conspire to screw other people over for their own political or financial gain ????
No, that's not the part that's hard to believe, and if you actually think this is the question I'd have to wonder if you've ever really heard a decent counterargument to this stuff. The objection is usually about the implausibility of those same people successfully keeping those efforts secret over long periods of time.



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I think the CIA purposely throws out all the ridiculous crap (90% of the theories) to discredit all the legitimate ones. After all, they weaponized that word after the JFK assassination. But it works, and the "tin-foil" baloney. Has anyone ever seen someone with a "tin-foil hat"? I doubt it. Does anyone really think only ONE guy can take over a country (Guatemala, Iran in the 50s for example)? It's impossible. I'm sure there are a lot of things done by one guy, but nothing major.

i think that people in the pentagon and defence related ministries have been purposefully doing that with recent "UFO" footage, but i think for the most part you are full of crap (no offense...), you underestimate the human imagination. For example, reptilians were invented by a couple and people and a fairly harmless cult.


I tend to believe that UFO's are always explainable given enough time and questioning. Sorry to believers: but an alien spacecraft visiting earth is astromically improbably. If humans can only launch spacecrafts that travel at 16,000 mph through space, then it becomes hard to fathom how some alien creature can create machines that travelers at thousands of lightyears. This is not a commentary on how smart we are, this is a commentary on how difficult achieving that type of velocity actually is. Everything is theoretically possible, but i don't think that our species will ever be living on other planets. In a few thousand years, it might be possible to terraform mars given enough effort by NASA and SpaceX (in theory all we would have to do is pump greenhouse gases into the mars atmosphere), but i find it unlikely that the laws of physics are going to let our technology get that advanced.



Anyone want to discuss the conspiracy theories behind "Chuck Cunningham" - the oldest brother on Happy Days?

Why did he disappear? Why was he never mentioned again as if he'd never existed? Was he killed in the early days of the Viet Nam war? Was he a KGB agent? Why were two different actors needed to play a character that was ultimately just deleted as if he'd never existed?

Was he part of an illuminati cabal wherein he hooked up with "Mike Douglas" - the oldest brother on My Three Sons who just disappeared after allegedly getting married and was never spoken of again (after youngest "brother" Ernie was adopted to keep the title accurate) as if he too had never existed?




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In a few thousand years, it might be possible to terraform mars given enough effort by NASA and SpaceX (in theory all we would have to do is pump greenhouse gases into the mars atmosphere), but i find it unlikely that the laws of physics are going to let our technology get that advanced.
How will the laws of physics throttle this particular advance? I understand the argument when it comes to near-light speed travel etc., but terraforming seems much more in our reach, and a far bit sooner than 1,000 years from now...
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How will the laws of physics throttle this particular advance? I understand the argument when it comes to near-light speed travel etc., but terraforming seems much more in our reach, and a far bit sooner than 1,000 years from now...

If NASA and private interest really wanted to do it, they could, but they dont.


Beyond space travel in terms of time, it's a resource intensive process. I just dont think terraforming Mars will ever happen, the current space program is way behind making something like this possible.



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If NASA and private interest really wanted to do it, they could, but they dont.


Beyond space travel in terms of time, it's a resource intensive process. I just dont think terraforming Mars will ever happen, the current space program is way behind making something like this possible.
So, it's more economic as opposed to the laws of physics? That was my question. I was curious as to how physics was erecting some sort of insurmountable wall re: terraforming.



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So, it's more economic as opposed to the laws of physics? That was my question. I was curious as to how physics was erecting some sort of insurmountable wall re: terraforming.

To me, physics has a lot to do with what people are capable of doing. Human activity is such that we will likely prevent ourselves from even stepping foot on Mars, in my opinion.