Hotseat! God

Nope, anybody who wants to call me out in here, go ahead. I'm not on either side. I did mention that it wa my wedding anniversary but that apparently doesn't matter. I also mentioned that it was very close to Yoda's anniversary, but go ahead and respond to me here. I didn't realize that I said or posted anything in this entire thread which could possibly insult any human being.

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It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. - John Wooden
My IMDb page

No animosity intended. Just statement of fact.

I know. All is cool.

Sure has been DERP in here lately.

Anyways...

This is our current definition.

GOD 2 ≡ (Abrahamic monism) the idea that God is most definitely good—this is the claim of Christianity (in addition to Islam and Judaism). This God takes sides, loves love, and hates hate; it's a God who wants us to behave in a particular way—the moral way.

Some of these may be redundant, but we can trim later.

1. God is most definitely good—loves love, hates hate.
2. God takes sides.
3. God wants humans to behave in a moral way.
4. There are things in this world that go against his nature—goodness.
5. God makes it clear that it is up to us to "fix what is broken".
6. There is no guarantee that good will triumph over evil.

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It sounds good to me, but I think it's missing some key aspects of God that are rather obvious but need to be said for completeness sake.

1. God is all powerful—through his will, he can perform any act.
2. God is all knowing.
3. God is outside our world—he cannot be reached; transcendent.

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In relation to 3, here is how I model God. WORLD is all matter and energy within the cosmos, delineated by the large circle. A is all that is capable of being perceived by humans X. That's me in the bottom right corner!

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"Loves them? They need them, like they need the air."

Planet News, I'd move. You're awfully close to God there, and if God needs lots and lots of space outside of all the energy and matter in the cosmos, then God is obviously some kind of diva and he's not gonna want you standing close to him and sticking your tongue out.

If God 2 is transcendent, is God ! immanent or is that saved for God three?

Just a note I haven't seen a Venn diagram since tenth grade that would be 1978 for those who are interested.

By the way what is DERP?

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Louise Vale first woman to play Jane Eyre in the flickers.

Not that I'm disagreeing, as I'm not sure what I think, but it's not necessary for God to be all-powerful or all-knowing, given what we've already established. He's transcendent most certainly, thus the reason for God Hides. The other two, however, are pretty irrelevant to the claims of Christianity, and they are more in line with the idea of wishful thinking than anything else, I feel. And yea, I'm very well aware that's a pretty radical thesis.

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"This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined." -Baruch Spinoza

Whoa. It's been a LONG time since I even heard "Venn diagram". It was totally out of my consciousness for years and years until now. Amazing how I instantly knew what you meant, though.

Ummm... yes!

@John

We have to agree on something in order to move on. If these are not tenets you accept... so be it, but then what is God in your view?

@Yoda

If you could verify this definition so far, that'd be good.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...p&defid=134579

(Don't feel bad, I didn't know either. But I don't think I'll try to remember it.)

Everything we've already listed. I was just saying that the additional two you added about being all-powerful and all-knowing aren't needed. I mean I'll certainly respond to any flaws you might find in those two ideas, but I feel they are irrelevant when discussing God 2.

First of all, what discussion? The only thing we're discussing right now is what GOD 2 is. And you were saying that GOD 2 is not omnipotent/omniscient. However... you are saying that he's transcendent.

You know... there's a reason why it is necessary for something like God to be transcendent, since He obviously doesn't "experience" being in the same way that humans do. It is not as if he's just another X outside of WORLD. X is simply not going to exist outside of WORLD. According to Kant, we can't even escape A! However, God transcends all being in a non-physical way and, by that property alone, has absolute knowledge of and control over WORLD, which includes A. Or... at least, I think that's how most people see it. I mean... do you really believe that being outside WORLD is simply the matter of being on the other side of barrier? It's outside of all being and existence. What I've always assumed is that people consider this kind of existence to be the kind of existence that God experience.

I dunno...it (all-powerful and all-knowing) just doesn't sit well with me. And I know that answers nothing, but I don't feel like trying to think about it right now. I also imagine it would take quite a bit of thinking to even wrap my own head around the idea.

It looks to me like you're just picking and choosing the things that make sense to you as postulates...

You can't do that. At least not with me. I wanted to talk about God, not the moral conundrums that God creates or solves. You have to take the concept to its fullest extent if you want to have a really productive discussion.

Normally, we would have already been arguing by now, but I really wanted to get a consensus this time on what makes God a God before we started.

I would suggest we all take a rest. I am sure you are pooped, and I still have some stuff of yours to reply to...

No, I am not picking and choosing, as I honestly do not want to ascribe those traits to God because they are not traits we can discuss or concern ourselves with; they might very well not be traits of God either. However, I have not been able to give the idea thought to establish how it can be done. Transcendence does not, and as much as I hate to disagree with Kant, necessitate the traits of all-knowing and all-powerful.

One, to ascribe all-powerful and all-knowing to the concept of God creates a road block for discussion. The arguments that arise from it do nothing to either affirm or deny his existence—they just stop the discussion. Period. If you want to do that, then I'll certainly grant you that premise and we can just end it here.

Otherwise, you will throw us into a pit of illogicalness that serves zero purpose. Sure, there are counter-arguments, but they serve the same purpose as the prior ones—they end the conversation. As I said, a basic definition is all that's needed to discuss God, but all-knowing and all-powerful are the exact opposite of basic. There are, I'm sad to admit, somethings our logic cannot talk about or understand. So you're left with two choices: argue with the definition I gave you or carry on as we have been doing before you created this thread.

Transcendental logic...

Okay then! I actually agree with you one this point, and I'm really glad we reached it. I am happy to throw those out, but something must go in their place.

I mean... answer these question for me... Y/N is fine.

Does God have a will?
Does God exert that will?
Can God alter things within WORLD?
Can God know things within WORLD?
Does God exert that his will for a purpose?
Does God always exert his will for a good purpose?

Wow, those questions are f***in' simple...

Hmmm... I can't tell if you're joking!

I dunno... I would think yes on all fronts, but I didn't want to presume.

my anniversary just passed, what does that have to do with the price of fromage?

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"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo.

You guys are like two nerds with an abacus as a crucifix. I need to brush off my philosophy degree and have some drinks - but I'll be back .

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“The gladdest moment in human life, methinks, is a departure into unknown lands.” – Sir Richard Burton