The Dark Knight (possible spoilers)

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I'm going to go out on a limb and predict Christopher Nolan for a Best Director Oscar too. Great director, undoubtedly his best movie to date, probably the best superhero movie of all time - I reckon we'll see his name on that list...
Actually, I was thinking about this earlier and I think your limb isn't that far out there. My prediction is Nolan and Ledger. I'm certain of Ledger, but I think the possibility of Nolan is strong. I honestly don't see any other major noms -- no screenplay or picture nods. After that it gets technical nods.

Like Yoda said, the Oscars really need interest from the public and remembering this film would help a great deal. I wonder if that will matter to them, though.

You know, I write that it won't get a picture nod, because I tend to think of the Oscar voters (as a group anyway) as a bunch of petty snobs that are caught up in their own self-importance because of their history of ignoring popular films, but I could be wrong since their history does show a propensity to honor a big movie with the public (think Titanic). They finally honored a fantasy film with LOTR; maybe TDK will be their chance to finally honor a superhero film.

But the truth is -- I don't think TDK is really good enough to warrant a BP nomination. Ledger and Nolan are certainly deserving, but I don't see any other nods. I think for a superhero film to ever win, it would have to be flatout brilliant, like LOTR was.

Of course, when Crash won over Brokeback Mountain, it proved that an insipid, horrible film can win over an amazing drama with outstanding performances.

It's like this -- if it's a drama, it can be dreck, but if it is a genre film -- sci-fi, fantasy, horror, superhero -- it has to be amazing and brilliant.

Oscars make me crazy. I don't even know why I care half the time.



A system of cells interlinked
Thank you! Finally another person that sees Crash for overwrought piece of junk it is!
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I am burdened with glorious purpose
Thank you! Finally another person that sees Crash for overwrought piece of junk it is!
Oh jeez, don't get me started! I was so angry, I threw a magazine at the TV and then vowed to NEVER watch the Oscars again. Then, when I found out that some well-known actors had stated that they would never watch Brokeback Mountain because of the subject matter, yet they would vote against it, I was even more pissed. I also found out that the producers of Crash had sent every single Academy member a DVD (the other producers didn't)and then I was disgusted. The whole thing reeked and still does.

People can like the film, no problem, hope I don't insult anyone, but really, overwrought doesn't even begin to describe this screenplay and the performances. Jeez, I wanted to push Sandra Bollock down the stairs, too, along with everyone else in the film. It was described by the author as "fable." Yea, right, fable alright. There isn't a genuine moment in the movie.

See, I said, don't get me started!



Damn... that was an excellent post you little tramp.

I also don't think this is deserving of a Best picture nomination, but, if it keeps cleaning up at the box office it may get one anyway. More likely is a few of the lesser categories like Costumes and Editing or something like that and it may even win one of those.

I also can't see Nolan getting a Director Nomination, there are some heavy weight Directors that are going to be putting their stuff out there and I just can't see it. I would also completely disagree with whoever said that this was his best film to date. Memento is his best work to date in my ever so humble opinion. Sure Nolan was behind the scenes offering as much support as a Director can but lets face it, this flick is all about the sensational cast. If you take Heath Ledger out of this film it would be an entirely average flick, probably not even as good as the first one or the 5th one depending on your time zone.

I'm also not on the band wagon to call this the best comic adaptation of all time, I still haven't read Miller's Dark Knight and am a little surprised that those who have, haven't weighed in on how good of an adaptation it really was. Or if in fact this even was an adaptation.

To me Spiderman is still leaps and bounds more faithful to the fans and the story it tried to tell on screen. I understand that the second and third installments weren't as good as the first but that's fine too. But it was like I was watching my Spiderman comic on the big screen when I saw it and good lord knows I spent many a day sitting on the floor at the 7-eleven reading them things too. So for me it was total bliss to see it done so well. Technically speaking I'd rate both films the same but as of now I'm going to say Spidey gets the edge.
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Originally Posted by tramp
They finally honored a fantasy film with LOTR; maybe TDK will be their chance to finally honor a superhero film.
YES! Shouldn't they FINALLY honor a superhero film?!? I mean, there have been so many that you can objectively point to as the greatest film in a certain year.

No, wait.

Don't know how many movies you see in a year, but if you think any of The X-Men or any of the Spider-Man flicks or even Burton's Batman (1989) or going back to Superman: The Movie (1978) are Best Picture worthy, you have a very strange and limited standard. I won't even insult you by lumping in the Fantastic 4, Ghost Rider and Daredevil level of truly incompetent garbage to this discussion, but which superhero movies do you feel were slighted by the Academy in the past?

I doubt The Dark Knight or Iron Man will wind up with a Best Picture nominations, but never say never. However it's going to have to be a damn weak year for either to make it. I wouldn't put any money on it, that's for sure.



And there is a whole other thread on this board just devoted to discussing the flick's Oscar chances.
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I am burdened with glorious purpose
YES! Shouldn't they FINALLY honor a superhero film?!? I mean, there have been so many that you can objectively point to as the greatest film in a certain year.

No, wait.

Don't know how many movies you see in a year, but if you think any of The X-Men or any of the Spider-Man flicks or even Burton's Batman (1989) or going back to Superman: The Movie (1978) are Best Picture worthy, you have a very strange and limited standard. I won't even insult you by lumping in the Fantastic 4, Ghost Rider and Daredevil level of truly incompetent garbage to this discussion, but which superhero movies do you feel were slighted by the Academy in the past?

I doubt The Dark Knight or Iron Man will wind up with a Best Picture nominations, but never say never. However it's going to have to be a damn weak year for either to make it. I wouldn't put any money on it, that's for sure.



And there is a whole other thread on this board just devoted to discussing the flick's Oscar chances.
You know, I don't want to get angry here but I sure am getting there. I have no idea why you wrote this in response to my post. I think you misread it. I don't think there is one superhero movie ever made that deserves Best Pic. So I don't know where in the heck you're coming from.

And so sorry I got on the tangent about Oscar chances in the WRONG thread.



And I see plenty of films a year.

And PW -- yea, I like Spidey a bit more. Love both 1 and 2!



I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think he's probably focusing on the "finally," and taking it to mean that the Academy is overdue in recognizing a superhero film.




I'm also not on the band wagon to call this the best comic adaptation of all time, I still haven't read Miller's Dark Knight and am a little surprised that those who have, haven't weighed in on how good of an adaptation it really was. Or if in fact this even was an adaptation.
I mentioned how i'd like to see that incorporated into the sequel in another thread, assuming you mean The Dark Knight Returns. It's not really got anything similar except for the tone and darkness. It's all in the future with an aged Batman, Joker is released from prison and goes on chat shows, Two-Face is in rehabilitation, Superman works for the Government preventing nuclear war and eventually fights Batman. The main similarity was the Batman imitators being slightly reminiscent of the Sons of Batman. It's a while since i read it but the wikipedia page should be info enough if you don't want to read it. From what i recall, the Joker was kinda similar to Ledger's version but that's more in with the fact both are distant from Nicholson's. The interesting aspect between the two characters in Miller's tale is the moral dilemma Batman realises- if he'd had have killed Joker earlier, he could have saved many more lives that the Joker subsequently takes on his release.
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I'm probably alone here but, I really hated this movie. I haven't seen a more boring movie in I don't know how long. Also, I don't get the big deal with Ledger's performance. I found it very weak and empty. I thought it sounded like he was reading his lines right off the script, covered by a silly voice and laugh. I also found almost everything that happened in this movie really stupid. I know you're all gonna say "It's a comic book movie, it's supposed to be unrealistic." and yes it is but, TDK didn't feel like a comic book to me, it lacked the atmosphere. So, stupid and unprobable things happening isn't justified. Basically, every problem I have with this movie probably would have been fixed if it had that atmosphere. I also hated every single character in the movie. This leaves TDK only slightly better than every other summer, action blockbuster.



I'm probably alone here but, I really hated this movie. I haven't seen a more boring movie in I don't know how long.
You're the one. I knew there had to be at least one person on the planet who would chime in they hated it, if for nothing else to go against the tide.

Well welcome.



I am burdened with glorious purpose
I almost started a new thread on this, because I looked around and it seemed that this isn't really a "review," nor is it about the box office, nor is it about awards. But then decided it probably should go here. I just wanted to link what I thought was a very interesting read (that took up half my morning!)

Some mind bending stuff here about the "philosophy" of Batman; a discussion of the "Will;" and a great bit about the Joker.

I'm also not sure if anyone here has posted this. Anyone ever been to overthinkingit.com? Check this out:

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/0...hauer-edition/

Some selected passages:

Arthur Schopenhauer was a German philosopher who came out of the Kantian school but ended up carving out his own little niche that was then carved up by Nietzsche. But before that happened, he talked about the Will a lot. The
, and the Will as distinguished from Representation.
Schopenhauer is complicated and difficult to explain. Kinda like Batman. He’s like the Dark Knight of early 19th century Berlin philosophers. Like the Batman to Hegel’s Superman. Sort of.
A Batman In Full
Batman doesn’t need explanation (even though I’m going to go to great lengths to do it anyway), because the story of Batman does not aspire to explain a person. He is also not an allegory. What is Batman? Batman is a hero for a civilization that has cast aside external agency as a first principle. He’s a superhero who is his own cause in a world of supervillains who are their own causes, but they’re all vaguely aspects of the same drive.
Batman is an intuitive, but not simple, symbol of an aspect of Will.
Batman doesn’t have to do the things he does — nothing really causes him to do them. He does it “Because he can take it” — because there’s a quality of him that is inherently motivated, that is driven to survival in an extraordinary way and that strives alongside the other projections of Will in the universe. Bruce Wayne didn’t “make” Batman. He is Batman on a deep level not even he truly understands — because sure, there’s the representation of it, the suit, the batarangs, the batmobile — it’s more than adequately represented. There’s the image. But there’s also the Will of it — not the Batman-in-itself, separate from and bossing around Batman and controlling everything he does (Alfred is a servant, not a master), but the guy actually out there in his suit with nothing but his wits, his batterangs, and maybe his Bat shark repellant.
Is your head spinning yet?

Let’s talk about the difference between Kant and Schopenhauer for a hot second. Kant argued that for each person there was a “thing in itself” that was separate from the universe we could perceive with our senses and that is the ultimate cause of what we think and do. Sort of like a soul, but not really. More like a mind. (I’m boiling this way down, and so forgive me and flame me in the comments if you like) Schopenhauer argued that there was no reason to separate this function — the part of us that makes decisions and adds value to things — from what was already in the universe. That the thing in itself wasn’t distinct, its functions were just an invisible, separate aspect of ourselves. The subjective versus the objective. The will vs. the representation.
.....

The relationship between Bruce Wayne and Batman is not cause-and-effect. The Will expressed through Batman is present with and in Batman all the time — you just can’t see it; or rather, you see aspects of it through Batman’s actions, but there’s a facet of it that remains mysterious and outside perception.
At this point, I'm totally intrigued. He goes on a bit, and then I read this, which I found extremely fascinating. At this point, he addresses The Dark Knight:

Way You Wear Your Bat
In Batman Begins, Batman struggles with whether to himself become this special hero guy, or whether to just give it up or live by somebody else’s expectations. He chooses to be this larger-than life hero, this Will-in-symbol, this walking tribute to trying to make things better.
In The Dark Knight, he has to confront a reality where he isn’t the only one like himself — where the world actually has a number of larger-than-life heroes, Will-in-symbols, people who have strong subjective experiences of Will and objective representations that reflect their intentions. The costume that denotes action. And they can’t all survive at the same time.
Still, there’s this sense of Kinship — they recognize similar aspects of Will within one another.
For one, you’ve got the imitation Batmen — the people who dress up like him, try to take the law into their own hands, and get themselves capped. Batman can’t live with these guys; they get in the way of his work and his mission, which is to keep people like that form getting capped. But he can’t stifle them, either, because once they get an idea in their head that they’re more than just a hungry stomach, well, the idea that you can’t stifle that sort of thing is kind of intrinsic to his worldview. It’s his own tactic, and he understands how difficult it is to stop.
For another, you’ve got Harvey Dent — a different vision of a hero that Batman identifies with strongly, a different fragment, but still cut from the same cloth, or so he thinks. Add the fact that he’s schtupping Batman’s main squeeze. That’s got Schopenhauer written all over it (Schopenhauer liked talking about sex and the competition or sex. He thought it was very important — “Nothing less than the composition of the next generation.”).
And finally, and most importantly, you have the Joker — He gets his own section.
And the "Joker section" (my favorite bit here):

The “Agent of Chaos”
It’s really cool when a movie villain lies. Like just lies. About himself, about stuff around him. It’s silly when a movie villain tricks and deceives everyone around him for the movie, and then when he’s got a moment to talk about himself, he’s totally honest and explains everything exactly the way it works.
I love how the Joker in The Dark Knight doesn’t do that. The second time he explains his scars (and the second explanation is totally different from the first one) is one of my favorite moments in the movie.
Which is why I don’t really take the Joker at his word when he says he’s an “agent of chaos.”
As one of my friends said it better than I could - “For an agent of chaos, he’s awfully well-organized.”
I think he’s speaking to an important point — that, as far as guys like Batman are concerned, with their vision of the world, their own representations to build, their own will-to-life to conduct, the Joker is a destroyer. He just comes in and annihilates power structures, institutions, and, perhaps with the most pleasure, the psyches of people who consider themselves to be righteous and in control — people who feel the are successfully projecting their own version of the Will into the world.
He doesn’t do it for power. He doesn’t do it for money. He does it with a couple of cans of gas and a few bullets, and he burns all the cash he wins in return. He doesn’t seem to have desires that yield to satisfaction — He seems as happy when he’s failed as when he’s succeeding.
I really don’t think he’s anybody else’s agent. There’s nobody “causing” the Joker, and no principle, not even chaos, no Ra’s Al Ghul, no thing-in-itself that pushes the Joker to do the things he does.

....

And when he sees Batman, he instantly recognizes somebody like himself. “You’re not like the others,” he says. He gleeful exclaims that Batman is “Like me!”
And this is the villain Batman must strive against to prove his heroism and establish an epic for Gotham.
And then he arrives at his conclusion:

So, through the Will and Representation, through creating a villain along the lines of Schopenhauer and confronting the need to defeat him, we arrive at the philosophy of The Dark Knight:
To distract ourselves from own desire for pleasure by creating artistic objects in our own image, but also to harness our obsessive hungers. To stamp our own impression on ourselves and the world around us because we think it is a good impression (and because it is a proxy for making babies). To compete with evil even as we see ourselves in it, and, sure, living long enough to see ourselves become the villain — but recognizing that, while our own subjective experience of being the hero is not something anyone else can experience or understand, it is still part of our existence inseparable from the perceived consequences of our actions.
"To compete with evil even when we see ourselves in it..."

You should also check out a bit there about the pencil trick with the Joker. Here's an excerpt (scroll down a bit):

http://www.overthinkingit.com/tag/christopher-nolan/

It's all about comparing the pencil trick to Shakespeare's Twelfth Night. Yep, you read that right.



I am burdened with glorious purpose
Boy, I really killed this thread, didn't I?

Did anybody actually read that website I posted? We don't need to discuss it if you don't want to, I'm just curious if anyone found themselves reading all that stuff.



is thouroughly embarrassed of this old username.
You're the one. I knew there had to be at least one person on the planet who would chime in they hated it, if for nothing else to go against the tide.

Well welcome.
I'm not trying to rebel or anything, I honestly went into the movie expecting it to be very good. And I have assembled a small group of people who don't like this movie...I'm at a total of 4 people now.



A system of cells interlinked
I'm not trying to rebel or anything, I honestly went into the movie expecting it to be very good. And I have assembled a small group of people who don't like this movie...I'm at a total of 4 people now.

*Yawn*

That sounds like such a great use of time.

Care to list all this improbable stuff in the film?



A system of cells interlinked


Heath Ledger should get nominated for something, but The Dark Knight best picture......that is getting really carried away.
Why are you quoting me? I never said The Dark Knight would get a Best Picture nod. In fact, I said it wouldn't, if you would actually read the threads!



Okay my first post but I have read around these forums for a while and dont take it easy I have got hard skin.

I would like to say that this is my own view and would like people to repect it as I will try () to repect your views and your comments.

I would like to get some people to try and open my eyes or maybe I can open yours.

How do The Godfather and Shawshank rate so high ???

I found that both movie had been often too predictable for me .

WARNING: "The Shawshank Redemption" spoilers below
Shawshank for instance He gets a small pick,the holy bible,a huge poster in his room and the film is about a man who breaks out prison(just by seeing the poster) after about an hour I had it pieced together.

WARNING: "The Godfather" spoilers below
In The Godfather.I loved it but was disappointed at the same time I mean it was great but could have been better .E.g I could tell that within the second I seen Michael he was going to be the new Godfather before they were even talking about a second one .

Two shared some big plot holes.

Now I know I can here some screams but hear me out I am not trying to put this films down as I really enjoyed both of them as there is great cast,great writing and great music .I rate them very highly and dont want to seem disrepectful toward there fans but I would only rate them on par with a modern film today such as Gone baby gone.(maybe not a great director but for everything else A1)

When I read imdb I find myself thinking that some people really hate to see TDK doing really well I on the other hand love to see Christopher Nolan on top.When a couple of decades go by he will be talk in the breath as Scorsese,Hitchcock,Coppola,Polanski and ford are just some of the top 50 I could name .

I must say that some of the insults that I have read are doing it's website no favours .I read one comment that said if you enjoyed this you would never enjoy a real movie such as NCFOM or there will be blood .I watch hunreds of movies a year and I really enjoy anything by the Ceon brother's (NCFOM BRILLANT)and really loved There will be blood (Daniel Day Lewis second ever finest role to My left foot).

I know I 'am babbling but I would finally want to make a point I really dont enjoy comic movies (I didnt even like Batman Begins)but I loved this masterpiece and may all of the success it is getting be reflected on that imdb.



Who watches the Watchbear?
Ahhh, 7 pages of delicious discussion. Mmmm.

I absolutely adored this movie. Heath Ledger was the highlight of the flick for me - I thought Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale were both fantastic as well.

One thing I've been mulling over is the issue of Oscars. If you look at how ratings and number of viewers have fallen over the years, you've gotta agree with the prediction that Heath will at the very least, get nominated. With so many people feeling so passionate about his performance and the movie as a whole, you'd get a whole lot of people watching the Oscars who otherwise wouldn't really care.

I don't want to sound like I think the Oscars are just a big contest of Fail and Tom Foolery, but... if they're going to use the Dark Knight to boost their ratings, will the nomination for Heath be enough to do that? While I love the movie, I don't know for sure if it's deserving of Best Picture or Best Director or anything like that - but I'm pretty certain that if it DID get big nominations beyond Heath's, it'd attract even more fans.

As for IMDB? All I can do is kind of.. shake my head a bit. Call me elitist, whatever - that list isn't exactly a hugely reliable way of determining film quality. Compare the people who are voting, etc, blah blah blah.

Anyway. I still need to read that meaty post up there by Tramp, it looks quite delicious.. I just wanted to post my thoughts before diving into that ;P
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