The Debates

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A couple of points about the debate.
Obama didn't play by the rules. Instead of sticking to answers to specific questions, he would go off tangent and bring up points on other topics and also use the time to attack Romney rather than answering ( for instance on the question of what people erroniously perceive about him ).
Obama also did not answer the question who turned down the request for added security for Bengazi Consulate but rather answered about what he did post attack. He also lied that the day after the attack, he went to the Rose Garden and called the attack " an act of terror ".



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Go ahead.

It is true.

But Romney was pretty evasive also.

The first question he didn't answer it at all.
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will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
That moderator sucked, worse than Lehrer. Both sides were right. She should have just taken questions from the audience instead of lamely trying to insert herself with her lame questions.



It's also interesting to note that Romney didn't bring up the fact that more illegal immigrants have been deported under the Obama administration as opposed to the Bush administration, in spite of Obama's smoke and mirror support of illegals.



That moderator sucked, worse than Lehrer. Both sides were right. She should have just taken questions from the audience instead of lamely trying to insert herself with her lame questions.
Stop the presses, will and I agree completely.



Obama's very presidential response to the Lybia-scandal was a huge plus.
How so? Obama completely evaded the true question ( which was who was responsible for denying Steven's request for additional security in Bengazi ) and went on to state what he did post attack.



28 days...6 hours...42 minutes...12 seconds
Wait....so the answer to gun violence is no single moms? Wha?!?!?!!?!?
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Stop the presses, will and I agree completely.
I also agree. The moderator certainly did not exersize complete control and I think demonstrated a bias towards Obama by allowing him too much time to stray off topic.
Romney should have jumped on Obama more about the Lybia debacle but knowledgeable viewers allready know all about what should have been more elaborated on by Romney in the debate.
The fact remains the same: The Obama administration not only did not do enough to protect our hot spot in Lybia but also attempted to deceive the American people, after the fact.
It's obvious that Ambassador Rice was not acting independently by issuing a government supported statement five days after the Bengazi attack " that this was the result of a spontaneous demonstration against a video defaming the Prophet Muhammed . "
And why is Hillary Clinton all of the sudden taking full blame prior to the debate?



^to cinemaafficionado: Well yeah. But this also goes back to exposing certain things that could deal with national security, which is also a big issue of relatively recent. Maybe he didn't wish to expose weak structures etc., maybe for his own selfish sake. Then again, there will always be problems with security when dealing with forces such as terrorism, why should he take a personal blow because of this, because people are too bias to understand that horrible things will always happen regardless of who is in the whitehouse?



While I agree that the idea that the President is actually responsible for everything that happens is silly, the question wasn't about it happening, it was about the fact that the Embassy requested more security and were denied. He just sidestepped that.



Wait....so the answer to gun violence is no single moms? Wha?!?!?!!?!?
No! It is ancient Chinese foot binding, you weren't listening attentively!



In the Beginning...
Some early fact-checking, at least from the Associated Press. FactCheck.org will likely have something tomorrow, too (if not already).

WASHINGTON (AP) In the rough-and-tumble of a town hall-style presidential debate, the facts took something of a beating Tuesday night.

Mitt Romney wrongly claimed that it took 14 days for President Barack Obama to brand the assault on the U.S. Consulate in Libya a terrorist act. Obama yet again claimed that ending the Afghanistan and Iraq wars makes money available to "rebuild America," even though it doesn't.

A look at some of their claims:

OBAMA: The day after last month's attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, "I stood in the Rose Garden and I told the American people and the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened. That this was an act of terror and I also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime."

ROMNEY: "I want to make sure we get that for the record, because it took the president 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror."

OBAMA: "Get the transcript."

THE FACTS: Obama is correct in saying that he referred to Benghazi as an act of terrorism on Sept. 12, the day after the attack. From the Rose Garden, he said: "No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. ... We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act."

But others in his administration repeated for several days its belief that the violence stemmed from protests over an American-made video ridiculing Islam. It took almost a month before officials acknowledged that those protests never occurred. And Romney is right in arguing that the administration has yet to explain why it took so long for that correction to be made or how it came to believe that the attack evolved from an angry demonstration.

___

OBAMA: "Let's take the money that we've been spending on war over the last decade to rebuild America, roads, bridges, schools. We do those things, not only is your future going to be bright, but America's future is going to be bright as well."

THE FACTS: What Obama didn't mention is that much of the money that has been paying for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was borrowed. In fact, the government borrows nearly 40 cents for every dollar it spends. Thus using money that had been earmarked for wars to build schools and infrastructure would involve even more borrowing, adding to the federal deficit.

___

ROMNEY: "As a matter of fact, oil production is down 14 percent this year on federal land, and gas production was down 9 percent. Why? Because the president cut in half the number of licenses and permits for drilling on federal lands and in federal waters."

OBAMA: "Very little of what Governor Romney just said is true. We've opened up public lands. We're actually drilling more on public lands than in the previous administration and my the previous president was an oilman."

THE FACTS: Both statements ring true, as far as they go. Obama more correctly describes the bigger picture.

According to an Energy Department study published in the spring, sales of oil from federal areas fell 14 percent between 2010 and 2011 and sales of natural gas production fell 9 percent, supporting Romney's point. The lower oil production was a result mainly of a moratorium on offshore drilling imposed by the Obama administration after the April 2010 BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, the worst offshore oil spill in U.S. history.

According to the same report, though, oil production from federal areas is up 13 percent since Obama took office despite last year's dip, and analysts say Gulf oil production is expected to soon exceed its pre-spill levels.

Natural gas production from federal areas has been declining for years because drillers have found vast reserves of natural gas in formations under several states that are cheaper to access than most federally controlled areas.

___

OBAMA: "For young people who've come here, brought here often times by their parents, have gone to school here, pledged allegiance to the flag, think of this as their country and understand themselves as Americans in every way except having papers, we should make sure we give them a pathway to citizenship. And that's what I've done administratively."

THE FACTS: His administrative actions do not provide a pathway to citizenship. The administration is allowing as many as 1.7 million young illegal immigrants to apply to avoid deportation for up to two years and get a work permit. And the government has begun a policy of prosecutorial discretion under which illegal immigrants with long-standing ties to the U.S. and no criminal history are generally not arrested and deported by immigration authorities. But these steps do not extend legal status or a process resulting in citizenship.

___

ROMNEY: "I know he keeps saying, 'You want to take Detroit bankrupt.' Well, the president took Detroit bankrupt. You took General Motors bankrupt. You took Chrysler bankrupt. So when you say that I wanted to take the auto industry bankrupt, you actually did. And I think it's important to know that that was a process that was necessary to get those companies back on their feet, so they could start hiring more people. That was precisely what I recommended and ultimately what happened."

THE FACTS: What Romney recommended did not happen, and his proposed path probably would have forced General Motors and Chrysler out of business. He opposed using government money to bail out the automakers, instead favoring privately financed bankruptcy restructuring. But the automakers were bleeding cash and were poor credit risks. The banking system was in crisis. So private loans weren't available. Without government aid, both companies probably would have gone under and their assets sold in pieces.

___

OBAMA: "And what I want to do is build on the 5 million jobs that we've created over the last 30 months in the private sector alone."

THE FACTS: As he has done before, Obama is cherry-picking his numbers to make them sound better than they really are. He ignores the fact that public-sector job losses have dragged down overall job creation. Also, he chooses just to mention the past 30 months. That ignores job losses during his presidency up until that point. According to the Labor Department, about 4.5 million total jobs have been created over the past 30 months. But some 4.3 million jobs were lost during the earlier months of his administration. At this point, Obama is a net job creator, but only marginally.

___

ROMNEY: "The proof of whether a strategy is working or not is what the price is that you're paying at the pump. If you're paying less than you paid a year or two ago, why, then, the strategy is working. But you're paying more. When the president took office, the price of gasoline here in Nassau County was about $1.86 a gallon. Now, it's $4.00 a gallon. The price of electricity is up. If the president's energy policies are working, you're going to see the cost of energy come down."

THE FACTS: Presidents have almost no effect on energy prices; most are set on financial exchanges around the world. When Obama took office, the world was in the grip of a financial crisis and crude prices and gasoline prices along with them had plummeted because world demand had collapsed. Crude oil prices have since risen even as U.S. oil production has soared in recent years because global demand is reaching new heights as the developing economies of Asia use more oil.

Other energy prices have fallen during Obama's term. Electricity prices, when adjusted for inflation, are down, and homeowners are finding it much cheaper to heat their homes with natural gas. That's because natural gas production has surged, reducing prices both for homeowners and for utilities that burn gas to generate electricity.

___

OBAMA: "What I've also said is, for (those earning) above $250,000, we can go back to the tax rates we had when Bill Clinton was president."

THE FACTS: Not exactly. The Bush tax cuts set the top income rate at 35 percent. Under Obama's proposal to raise taxes on households earning more than $250,000, the president would return the top rate to the 39.6 percent set during the Clinton administration. But he neglected to mention that his health care law includes a new 0.9 percent Medicare surcharge on households earning over that amount and that tax would be retained. The health care law also imposes a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for high earners. So tax rates would be higher for the wealthiest Americans than they were under Clinton.

___

ROMNEY: "I'm going to bring rates down across the board for everybody, but I'm going to limit deductions and exemptions and credits, particularly for people at the high end, because I am not going to have people at the high end pay less than they're paying now."

THE FACTS: Romney is proposing to cut all income tax rates by 20 percent, eliminate the estate tax and the alternative minimum tax, maintain and expand tax breaks for investment income, and do it all without adding to the deficit or shifting the tax burden from the wealthy to the middle class. He says he would pay for the tax cuts by reducing or eliminating tax deductions, exemptions and credits, but he can't achieve all of his goals it under the budget rules presidents must follow.

The Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group, says in a study that the tax cuts proposed by Romney would reduce federal tax revenues by about $5 trillion over 10 years. The study concludes that there aren't enough tax breaks for the wealthy to make up the lost revenue, so the proposal would either add to the deficit or shift more of the tax burden on to the middle class.

Romney's campaign cites studies by conservative academics and think tanks that say Romney's plan will spur economic growth, generating enough additional money to pay for the tax cuts without adding to the deficit or shifting the tax burden to the middle class. But Congress doesn't recognize those kinds of economic projections when it estimates the budget impact of tax proposals.

___

ROMNEY: "A recent study has shown that people in the middle class will see $4,000 a year in higher taxes as a result of the spending and borrowing of this administration."

THE FACTS: Romney's claim is based on an analysis by the conservative American Enterprise Institute that examines the amount of debt that has accumulated on Obama's watch and in a potential second term and computes how much it would cost to finance that debt through tax increases. Annual deficits under Obama have exceeded $1 trillion for each year of his term.

However, Obama is not responsible for all of the deficits that have occurred on his watch. Most of the federal budget like Medicare, food stamps, Medicaid and Social Security runs on autopilot, and no one in a leadership position in Washington has proposed deep cuts in those programs. And politicians in both parties voted two years ago the renew Bush-era tax cuts that have contributed to the deficit. Even under the strict spending cuts proposed by Romney, the debt would continue to rise, just not as fast.



Aaaaaaand here's Crowley admitting Romney's point was right, but that she just thinks he chose the "wrong word:"



Moreover, here's Crowley on the 28th suggesting the same thing.

Sure would've been nice if she'd said this when tens of millions of people were watching. Moderators aren't supposed to fact check, period, but if they do they ought to actually do it right. Good grief. This is why we have the rules in the first place.



Rommney interrupted the moderator several times
I have a serious question for you. Did you actually somehow not notice all the times Obama interrupted or failed to answer the question, or do you just decide those don't count for some reason?

I expect everybody to spin for their guy a little, but this is getting kinda goofy.



There are those who call me...Tim.
Romney looked like he'd aged about 10 years between debates.

Apart from that, Daphne here, at the end of the video, just about highlights my grasp of American politics:



That and kittens.
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will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Aaaaaaand here's Crowley admitting Romney's point was right, but that she just thinks he chose the "wrong word:"



Moreover, here's Crowley on the 28th suggesting the same thing.

Sure would've been nice if she'd said this when tens of millions of people were watching. Moderators aren't supposed to fact check, period, but if they do they ought to actually do it right. Good grief. This is why we have the rules in the first place.
She haD NO BUSINESS trying to set the record right, BUT rOMNEY WAS STILL WRONG BECAUSE HE SAID THE pRESIDENT ON THAT DAY SPECIFICALLY DID NOT CALL THE ACT TERRORISM AND HE DID. It doesn't matter his overall point was valid, his specific statement was factually wrong on the point Obama was confronting him with. But she is the biggest idiot I have ever seen moderate. Romney even before that was doing a terrible job arguing his point on Libya. If this is a preview of what he is going to be like on the foreign policy debate, it won't be a good night for him. He has been doing the usual Romney think in the first two debates, trying to sound moderate while being hard right during the primaries. He was in loony right land arguing foreign policy in the primary debates trying to keep up with his tea party rivals. He is not going to be doing that in the third debate. Trying to go neocon and emulate Bush won't appeal to swing voters. So we will get a lot of criticism from him, but no specifics on what he would do different.



I have a mix of agreement and disagreement with you. I'll get the disagreement out of the way first:

He didn't call it terrorism, he made a very general statement about "acts of terror." This is admittedly ambiguous (which is why it can't really be "fact checked" to begin with), but Obama's defenders contradict themselves pretty blatantly here. How can it be an "ongoing investigation" where they didn't have all the facts yet, as they kept on saying, if the President had already declared it a terrorist attack? How can people say he simultaneously labeled it terror, but when asked to confirm or clarify this, both the President and his surrogates said it was too soon to say? That makes zero sense.

Onto the agreement: you're completely right, moderators have no business contradicting candidates, especially when they're interrupting them to do it. Absurd. And I agree that Romney was blowing the Libya answer. That was a huge opportunity for him, and he missed it. No idea why. I expect he'll hit that one squarely in the last debate on foreign policy, but still, definitely an unforced error.



I have a serious question for you. Did you actually somehow not notice all the times Obama interrupted or failed to answer the question, or do you just decide those don't count for some reason?

I expect everybody to spin for their guy a little, but this is getting kinda goofy.
He interrupted the moderator a couple times towards the end after Rommney was doing it from the beginning. And what really set me off is when Rommney interrupted her mid question, and when he plain out said no I won't talk about that lets go to something else (when she wanted to talk about self deportation)
Obama did ignore the Fast & Furios and probably left a few other things out, but not nearly enough as Rommney
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