Battlestar Galactica: Final Season (SPOILERS)

As an athiest, I find it hilarious that I'm defending divine influence and its role in this show against overtly religious people. Somewhere, Richard Dawkins has the shakes.

I understand why many were disappointed, even if it worked for me. I wish some parts had been handled differently, too.

If it makes you feel any better, the ancient history stuff--Pythia, the exodus of the 13th tribe and of the other 12--is going to be told in a comic miniseries by one of the show writers. I have no details on a publication date.

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You think?

Back when I was a devoutly religious slip of a girl, a crude non-believer said to me that he had wondered why, if there was a Divine Power at all, they would bother with mankind. We're sort of clumsy and ignorant, in the big picture. It took me about a decade to get past the many ways that statement insulted my sensibilities before I could process the thing he said next: that of all the creations of God, people are the only one with the ability to surprise Him. That God allows us to continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over because He loves us enough to hope we'll one day make the better choice.

As a basis for religion, that concept is so wafty and thin as to be untenable. What are the details? What kind of surprise does God want? How do we know what will be the surprising outcome for a Being that has lived for eternity? It's just not enough information.

As a basis for a television show that has something important to say about the human experience though, it's incredibly elegant and applicable to everyone on the planet, regardless of their particular religion.

In the world of BSG, that one concept unifies humans of all the many religions of the show, cylons of all their types and motivations, and all the other characters - Head, Visionary, and Resurrected Somehow.

Ron Moore took the two topics you're to never bring up at dinner: politics and religion, and woven then into a unifying, meaningful reminder that we determine our own destinies by making our own choices. The finale is one specific example after another of people doing this and being rewarded, or not doing this and suffering the consequences.

The meaning of the Opera House is that the Divine Power creates for us stage after stage upon which we are presented the choice: peace or war? We're given opportunities over and again to be a little less selfish, a little more in control of our emotions, a little (a lot) more trusting of each other... and because this Divine Power created us (as Ellen says to Cavil) it loves us enough to give us endless chances, and to hope for us every time. I can't think of a more beautiful message.

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Some of these things seemed at least hinted at, to me. I'm going to offer what I think is the dealio, and you can take it for what it's worth.

• How was the 13th tribe Cylon?
  Kobol was inhabited by people who built machines to toast their bread, wash their laundry when they weren't home, etc and eventually those Roombots begat Cylons who went to war against their makers. This has all happened before, and will happen again.
  
  It's entirely possible too, that the Lords of Kobol were the survivors of a previous cycle of growth, development, destruction. This time, 35,000 people survived. Last time, the Final Five survived. Lots of people survived the "Rain of Fire" on Kobol, and possibly the Lords were the survivors before that.
  
  All this will be coming to us in comic book form, as Nim mentioned, but they did say expliticly that the cylons who lived on Nuked Earth had come from Kobol.
  
  
• Why is there a "Temple of Five" long before there's a Final Five?
  Ellen explains this in "No Exit". The 13th Tribe built it on thier way to Earth to ask for guideance. That's why it points the way to Earth.
  
  
• What is Kara? We have Angels in this world, apparently, but she isn't like them. Everyone can see her.
  She's off-brand.
  Ok, that was a joke to take the edge off what I'm about to tell you, because you're going to hate it, I fear: Kara was a resurrected being. Like Jesus, only hotter. Not mechanically created resurrection as it existed when the Final Five re-made it or as it had when the ancient Cylons had it, but by whatever method is used by the Divine Power in this universe.
  
  Also like Jesus, she was sent to help lead people toward the place where they would be in a position to make their ultimate choice, and to help get them through the awkward phase when they chose war and rebuilding yet again.
  
  Once this task was completed, she was gone "in a twinkling", and we have the suggestion that she and Anders meet up after they're both relieved of mortal form.
  
  Kara has always been a deeply religious person. She's also a rather flawed person - hot-headed, capricious, guilt-ridden and seeking redemption herself from the fallout from the relationships with both her parents. Such a person could be, and we see here, is, a very useful tool for a Divine Power. She's got her own journey to complete - dealing with her past and accepting herself for who she is, being brave enough to face the difficult emotions from which she's always run - and she's also open enough to guidance, due to her faith, that she serves the purpose of her destiny.
  
  
• Even if we accept the fact that Kara's just some special exception issued by God (but why? Just because?), how did her body end up charred on (first) Earth, when we saw it explode in space?
  This isn't explained, which is sort of a niggling problem, but given the depth of meaning of everything else that's going on, it doesn't seem to me to be worth much worry.
  
  
• Why was the singularity necessary/important?
  It created a defensible position for the hugest spacecraft ever made.
  
  
• Does Bob Dylan still get residuals for writing a song that was apparently built into the fabric of the Universe?
  Yep.
  

No. As Nim explained, the concept of DeM is a last minute switcheroo to something we never could have seen coming. While none of us did see this in the works, it was there from the start.
~What were the odds that a man in what amounted to a glass house could be shielded from a nuclear blast by a lingerie model?
~What were the odds that the Final Five all survived the attack on the Colonies?
~What were the odds that the base star carrying Roslin jumped right in front of the Raptor that Bill Adama had gone looking for her in, moments after Elosha tells Roslin that there might be something for her even closer than the battlestar?
~What are the odds that a dead woman's body, floating in a ruined raptor, is hit at just the angle necessary to flop her hand onto the button to launch nukes that she wasn't supposed to have hot in the first place because they were too close to the Colony to use nukes?

Divine Intervention has been with us throughout. Religion has been part of the landscape from the start. I guess I can't really see how you can say, five years into this, "hey, wait a minute".

Couldn't agree with you more about the moment when Baltar realises he will have to be a farmer. That moment was such a great compilation of everything we know about him, it was hilarious and very touching at the same time, recalling the line about the best music being the kind that makes you happy and sad at the same time.

Kara's viper and body had to be moved to earth so as to transmit the signal that would bring the alliance. They absolutely had to find bad earth first, or none of the myriad events and states of mind that brought them to Earth 2 would have occurred. But really, its clear that Ron Moore cares frak all about these details, and cares only about the character beaats. Frustrating on some level, but I don't see any holes that can't be filled with a little careful thought.

By saying that her viper and body "had to be moved to Earth," all you're saying is that the writers made a mistake and had to find a way to correct course and fix it later. If she had to be on Earth ... then why did they have her explode in space nowhere near that first Earth? Seems as if you're almost agreeing that there is indeed a dilemma and problem here -- a mistake in plot -- that forced the writers to make yet another plot mistake in order to get back on track: "Oops, we need Kara's body and viper to be on the nuked Earth, but we had her explode in space. Now what?"

Also, I think it's a bit difficult to believe that Ron Moore doesn't care a frak about the details. If ANYONE should care about the details, it's the writer/producer of the show. If I as a novelist mapped out a novel and just didn't care if I had been internally inconsistent or thrown in backstory that contradicted itself, I'd not end up with a very loyal following after a while.

As a writer, you can create any sort of "world" you want to, to house your story. But once you create a world with a certain set of rules, you have to remain faithful to your own created rules. Once you start backpedaling on things you told the viewers were true, then they can't trust you about other things.

This is entirely an oversimplification of the issues, I know. And I don't mean to sound sarcastic either. Just callin' 'em as I see 'em.

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In Crossroads, Kara sees a Cylon raider and follows it. Lee doesn't see it. Previously, she'd been flying in that area with Hotdog and she saw it and Hotdog didn't see it. This has always suggested to me that the power behind her vision of the death of her mother, and the behind her disappearance and reappearance has the ability to make people see what it wants them to see. Based on not one but two characters not seeing something that is there if you or I go watch those episodes, it seems like her viper maybe didn't blow up. Or when it did blow up, the chunk she was in fell to Earth. The real question is how did human hair survived re-entry, but no one wants to tackle that elephant in the room, do they?!

I think Moore cares about the details insofar as they communicate a story to us that is emotionally resonant and thought-provoking. This show has never been Larry Niven. We've never been upset about the lack of hard-core technological speculation, so why start now?

I think perhaps the reason it seems we are harping on this now and not earlier is that, before now, we could have held out some hope to get answers *eventually.* But now that we are done with episodes, it is still a tad frustrating to think, "That's it? No more series opportunities to answer questions THEY asked first?" (I don't subscribe to needing extra-series podcasts or comic books or prequels to explain things that got messed up or skipped in a series, BTW.)

Also, I had about a 50/50 reaction to this finale. 50% was just marvelous and absolutely what I wanted and needed to see. The other 50% felt like I was getting gypped by promised answers I never seemed to get.

SD, I do think your "resurrected being" idea resonates quite well and explains a fair amount of my issues ... so thank you for that. However (sorry!), both Baltar and Kara herself refer to Kara as an angel, which leads a viewer by the nose to think that the otherworldly being she is, is in fact an angel of some sort. And even that would make sense (in terms of her dying and then coming back as some sort of spirit-guide) ... if the writers hadn't forced the idea as far from us as possible by making her seen by everyone and making her drink, eat, and POOP, for goodness' sake! SHE HAD TO USE A TOILET! Sorry, but that doesn't really fit most people's definitions of "angel" (except for John Travolta in "Michael," I suppose).

It might fit with the Jesus idea (since Jesus, when he came back, ate and drank and was physical) ... but then we're back to why the writers had several characters call her an angel. It was just confusing -- part-Jesus-being, part-angel, with mixed characteristics.

If she's some whole-new being we haven't seen on the series until the finale, then I cry out, "Unfair!"

But otherwise, I am filled with fond memories of so much of the finale ... which we may never get around to discussing if I can't make my point clearly and then not have someone counter it every time. I think we just are going to have to disagree on whether or not the writers were fair with us in their resolution of the series.

I can't tell you how happy I was to see grass and trees and animals, and to see everyone on a planet instead of a battlestar. A huge feeling of relief came over me. LOVED it. Even if I knew it was coming, I still loved actually seeing it.

And Yoda and Lady C and I just roared at Tyrol's eyes during the scene where the Final Four had their fingers in the Anders goo. Omigosh, that was worth waiting the whole series for. Brilliant! The look on his face as it changed had us laughing like crazy in some odd backwards reaction. (I think it's because we'd been waiting for Tory to get her comeuppance.)

I don't remember any Christians among the various mix of religions in the BSG-verse, which leads me to guess that they didn't have a "Jesus" label to put on her. And resurrection in their experience was a mechanically created process, used only on cylons - it would have seemed an unfitting term to apply to her from their perspective, I'd think. So it doesn't seem to me like they really had an easy way to describe her aside from "angel". And yes, while she doesn't meet the definition of what we expect an angel to be, it appears to be the best term that the characters had available, and quite possibly fit a broader definition that they had in use.

For what it's worth, in Mormonism (the religion of the original creator of the show) angels do have physical bodies. So one person's definition doesn't even work for everyone within our own universe. Also, Baltar had sex many times with Head 6 - how do you account for that if having to pee means Kara can't be an angel?

Going into exactly what she was, who made her that way and how they did it didn't seem to interest Moore, and really I think knowing that wouldn't have been as meaningful in the long run as the emotional impact of what we did see that I'm ok with their not spending time on the mechanics. It's ok that you're not ok with it, I guess. I feel a bit sorry that you were disappointed is where I'm coming from, and I feel a little like you're setting yourself up for disappointment, but you seem pretty invested in it, so uhm.. ok.

After taking the day to meditate about it, I think SD has hit it spot on about "what is Starbuck?". Since the Colonials were believers in "many Gods" and had no reference to Jesus, or as far as I can tell, anything that would remotely suggest a "Jesus-like" character in their histories, it makes perfect sense to have Kara become the "guiding light" of the survivors and help guide them to Earth(2).
Don't get me wrong, I've had sooooo many ideas on what the producers and writers were gonna do to wrap up this series and tie-up all those loose ends, that I may have set myself up to fail. Sedai has told me countless times that not every single thing that has been brought to light necessarily has to be finalized or tied-up nicely with a bow. The series has left us with several questions that may never be answered to mine or anyone elses liking, but that doesn't mean as a whole, the series is lacking.
I mean, really, if the show had ended anyway near how the "Sopranos" had ended, I'd be at Ron Moore's house right now, kicking him in the genitals and forcing the answers out of him for all of us.

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I thought Baltar had sex with Caprica Six, not Head Six. Am I missing something? My main point still stands: They definitely presented her differently from the head characters, and did it precisely so we wouldn't make a connection that she was in any way otherworldly. They kept her as this-worldly as possible to avoid suspicion.

As for the Jesus thing (and not having a reference): That's fine because it makes sense, and I still like your analogy. But they certainly weren't *clear* about it. And I'll admit my bias that I do not like when writers pull the bit about, "We left it open to interpretation," when that's not how they were heading in the beginning. To me as a writer, it feels more like laziness than graciousness.

Putting that aside, I'll add one last thing: I didn't want or expect everything to be tied up neatly with a bow. That's not what I'm (still) griping about, honest. I'm picking on one very specific but very important wrap-up: the Kara explanation. That's it. And although everyone else seems okay with getting half an answer, or an answer that is at best ambiguous, I am not okay with that.

Why? Well, first off, the previews every frakkin' week this season seemed to have Kara yelling, "WHAT AM I?" So then, to give us a non-definitive answer seems disingenuous (a word I keep using, sorry). It's misleading. To give that question THAT much importance (remember all the brouhaha after her viper exploded? everyone on the Internet went nuts), and then to toss out an answer that isn't fully formed ... even in the minds of the writers themselves ... seems unfair.

If it doesn't bother you, fine. If the emotional wrapup overshadowed the logic issues I'm still wrestling with, then fine too. But as a writer, this really bothers me. Novelists don't often get away with defying their own canon, and they certainly can't promise something early on and then never deliver ... not without losing the loyalty of a lot of their readers.

THAT is my gripe. It's a specific gripe, and it doesn't encompass my feelings about the series in general or even entirely about the finale. The other plot holes Yoda mentioned are still there, but those don't irk me. (I still don't have the mythology or the histories straight, so I didn't notice those holes like he did.)

But it's hard not to make the comparisons (between Kara questions and Kara answers) and sit and dwell on the answers given when they showed us Kara asking that question of herself for weeks and weeks and weeks. Why drag us down that path with those previews if we weren't going to get an answer that even the writers could define properly among themselves?

Piledriver ... LOL, we actually told ourselves, "This better not end like The Sopranos!" But of course, that was mostly because this story had a huge overarching Larger Story (finding a home after devastation), and THAT is the story that was being told and that had to end. (They would either find a home or they wouldn't.)

With The Sopranos, it was mostly about a family of gangsters and their lives ... with no overarching storyline that had to end at a certain point in the plot. So, yes, it wasn't anything like that ending ... whew!

Sorry you guys were disappointed. I guess I am just easy. I do recognize the fact that the Kara story was given short shrift, but I feel like that nitpick (a rather large one, sure) is comparatively small when considering the scope and eventual focus of the show.

Me being a fan of ambiguous open endings, I was just fine with a couple of loose ends because the finale delivered on so many other aspects so well. I feel like the deeper philosophies of the show weren't diminished, and were in fact fleshed out in a way that was deeply satisfying, on a level that will be remembered long after the various twists of character and narrative have faded. The issues of faith, redemption, love and humanity all take precedence over making sure every I is dotted and every T is crossed.

Sure, I shook my head a bit when Kara vanished, but after thinking about it, especially after Baltar's claim that the blood from the corpse was indeed Kara's, the only resolution for her character was one of supernatural origin. Considering this, I have trouble coming up with a different supernatural explanation that would work anywhere near as well. A fallen angel, perhaps?

As Sammy said, they have been throwing the "All part of God's plan" thing in our face constantly since the beginning. I completely expected some divine concepts in the finale, and involving one or more of the characters in it in a mystical way just seems logical.

I will watch it again, and will have more thoughts afterward. Still sort of processing that what I consider to be one of the best shows of all time has just ended.

Bittersweet, for sure.

Goodbye friends, we will miss you!

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I have thought about this a lot over the weekend. I am now pretty positive that my gripes about the Kara situation stem not so much from what actually happened ... but from the fact that only a week earlier, I thought we had such a better explanation (just like with the time travel thing).

That is, I was stunned when Yoda posted Ron Moore's apologetic statement that there was absolutely NO Daniel/Kara connection. (I'm still stunned.) After odd clues that led us in that direction (the "Opera House" tape of her dad's, bringing up the Daniel cylon at ALL, needing explanations for Kara's reappearance, etc. etc.), I was bowled over that we were totally off track on that one.

So, I think now that I went into that finale episode assuming we might get an even MORE logical answer than the Daniel/Kara connection. Or should I say, "more satisfying"? Because I "get" the whole Jesus-connection explanation a lot better now, and it does fit with some of the stuff they've always thrown in our faces (although I'm still having issues with everyone, including Leoben as I now saw a few minutes ago while rewatching something, calling her an "angel").

But I would have absolutely ADORED a cool little plot-twist like a Daniel/Kara connection, and I'm positive now that I therefore found their actual explanation a lot less exciting and intriguing. It was downright mundane in comparison to the stuff we were coming up with here.

I'm trying not to let that disappointment (due to our own brilliant theorizing here over the years) cloud my feelings for the show's ending. It's a little easier today, but I think that the logical part of me will always be a little disappointed in the no-Daniel, no-time-travel, no-better-explanation ending we got on Friday. The possibilities of the theories mentioned here in recent weeks would have been kick-ass awesome to see on the screen on Friday.

I think I will probably start rewatching the show from the beginning later this week. That's a very very good sign. I miss it already.

Sure thing. Likewise and all that.

Right, I did follow it that far. Though I'd say that we ought to be able to get a pretty firm grasp of things from the show alone, and not need ancillary expanded universe-type stuff after-the-fact. I think I was sorta-kinda operating under the assumption (at first) that Kobol didn't get quite as far, technologically, as Caprica, but I realize that's not the case.

Anyway, this isn't a plot hole or anything, but what I keep coming back to is: where does the cycle start? Does it start on Kobol (which is as far back as the show's history goes right now, it seems), or does it start once everyone leaves Kobol? I'm not upset that we don't know...just wondering aloud. The idea of the cycle seems to be the inevitability of each society developing (and mistreating) artificial intelligence, whereas the events on Kobol seem a bit different. Still kinda curious about that.

Aye, but there was no Final Five when the Temple was built, so we're being asked to the believe that the number Five itself has some mystical qualities, and that it reappears throughout history in coincidental ways. They build a temple (the "Temple of Hopes"), someone modifies it at some point to honor five priests (of whom we know almost nothing about), and then at some point we get some kind of divine intervention which links it up to the Final Five. IE: God did it. I know Jesus was a carpenter and everything, but I didn't know He did architecture, too.


Aus already covered this, and you already replied, but it does feel like a bit of a cheat to have her basically be an angel...but one that follows a completely different set of "rules" than the other angels. I understand that everything's character-centric here, but just how much reason do we sacrifice on the alter of drama? It rather feels like having her die was simply the most dramatic thing that could happen, and thus the drama took precedence over the fact that there was no rational explanation for what was to follow.

If you could have Baltar get shot in the head every week, only to return somehow, it might give the audience a short-term shock the first time it happened, but eventually no one would take the show seriously. Obviously it's not enough for something to be interesting or dramatic; it has to be consistent, and it has to make sense. We're all suspending a little disbelief for shows like this, but only because they give us some broad rules that this new universe operates in. But what good is all that if they can make an exception for every rule? Well, none of this adds up rationally, so they're angels. And so is Kara. But because she's clearly different from the angels, she's just a different kind of angel (or whatever you want to call her).

Everytime something happens that doesn't fit with the facts we have so far, they can invent a new supernatural designation or exception. At what point does this incredible convenience start to take away from the drama it's used for? Certainly it must start at some point for everyone, even if your theshhold for it is higher than mine.

I dunno, this strikes me as a pretty massive problem. We see her blow up, we see her come back, her body's on Nuked Earth somehow, and her Viper's brand new. And the lone explanation for all of this is: God did it. Again.

Even those of you who liked the ending were here speculating with the rest of us when all this happened, though, and trying to piece these facts together. There wouldn't be much reason to do that if we didn't have the expectation that it could be kinda-sorta reasoned out.

If the writers of the show can do something, and then completely reverse it by having God intervene, isn't that really poor storytelling? Regardless of how they arrived at their decisions, this type of writing is basically indistinguishable from someone making something up as they go along, and using a God character to explain away the times when they've gotten themselves into a corner.

Surely it must bother you that we can see a character die, and some unseen character can swoop down, construct a fake dead body, plant it on a planet, and then recreate the character and their ship and send them back? We're all used to fiction hinting at the idea of God giving a nudge here or there, but this is a whole 'nother animal. I don't think it's for nothing that none of us even considered the possibility that a God character could be doing all this.

Put another way: if you were writing this show, would you even consider this explanation, or would you dismiss it as too convenient?

Maybe I missed some of the Sci-fi speak for all this, since so much of it is quasi-theoretical anyway. Seems to me they could have done the same thing with just the asteroids lying all over the place. Maybe it didn't sound as tech-y. I dunno.
I think you guys are taking me a little too seriously here; I referred to all this as being the "literal embodiment" of DeM. I'm pointing out the semantic irony that, whatever the phrases origins or common meaning, we literally got God in the machines.

Anyway, that said; the problem, for me, with this thinking is that it can be extended to justify basically anything. I don't think that simply dealing with issues of divinity makes it suddenly acceptable to fill in plot holes with God-stucco. Surely it can't be that simply talking about metaphysical things in general gives a writer/storyteller carte blanche to explain everything with it.

I see what you're getting at, but I think there are a few other things to consider. First, these only become coincidences once the series ends, and we realize there aren't enough chairs for them all to sit in. Until it ends, we don't know if they're going to get an explanation or not, so it's not as if we've known they were coincidental all along.

Also, it's built into the nature of TV shows or movies that some exceptional, coincidental things will happen, or else we'd have no reason to watch. That's why I never really complained about most of them. I expected a few things to be brushed aside with a spiritual explanation, and could've lived with that if it was used a bit more sparingly, or blatantly (in the case of Kara).

I don't mind behind-the-scenes movements that guide things in vague ways. The idea that God might give Tyrol an inkling that the Temple of Five is just up over that next hill is one thing. Having God fake people's deaths and plant bodies is another thing entirely.

Definitely. And, of course, the irony of Baltar and Six -- arguably the two people most responsible for the Holocaust on Caprica -- living through it all and ending up together.

Tyrol breaking the truce is still the fondest memory I'll take from the show, but Baltar on Second Earth is a close second.

Aus kinda covered this, so forgive me if I repeat anything she's said, but notice the phrasing here: her viper and body (emphasis added) "had to be moved to earth so as to transmit the signal that would bring the alliance." But the "had" assumes that the show had to end the way it did. Isn't this backwards? You can't write an ending, and then justify every convenient thing that gets you there because, well, we had to get to that ending. They could have written a different ending. Or not written things earlier that pushed them towards an ending they couldn't tie together. Either way, we can't justify an event simply on the basis that it led to the ending; that's circular.

But you're right, maybe Moore doesn't care about all these details. A lot of us were under the impression that he did, though. And all those "WHAT IS KARA?" and "YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH" promos didn't help a whole lot, either.

I do to.

Also, I'd like to say that sometimes I feel like you guys are off your rocker when you bring up certain issues about the quality of a plot device or certain episode. THis time, I feel like you and Yoda have genuine complaints; I just don't agree with them. IOW, I recognize that issues are there, but I think the interpretation and perspective play a large part in whether or not they affect the show in a negative way. I see how they can, but they don't for me.

Make sense?

I dig.

After the finale, Aus asked me how I thought other people were going to react. I said I thought it'd be mixed, but that a surprising number of people would like it, if only because they really wanted the emotional closure of seeing these characters sitting on grass, with wind in their hair, etc. I'm not declaring to you (or anyone else) that this is, in fact, why you liked the episode, but I was thinking shortly after that a lot of people might get so much satisfaction out of sights like that, that logistical issues would fall by the wayside a bit.

So, you're right, it's about perspective. We have somewhat different expectations of the show and will therefore have different levels of frustration or enjoyment based on that.

It was certainly part of it, but I did figure they would get SOME sort of release, simply because the episode was called Daybreak. Really, I wanted enough deep allegory and philosophy to chew on, which this delivered in spades. I wanted certain characters to have memorable send-offs, which we also got. I wanted to some pulse-pounding scenes and some surprises; clearly, they delivered here.

I guess what I was really hoping for, was a finale that transcended the sum of its parts in such a way that it delivered a set of ideas that would end the show in an elegant way, while still challenging me as a viewer to continue exploring for answers. Last night as I was drifting off to sleep, I started comparing the allegory in 2001: A Space Odyssey with the similar themes in BSG of technology being a necessary rung on a ladder of progress, but that it is exactly that - a rung. A step, if you will. The Cylons were a physical embodiment of this concept. Technology is not enough on its own. In order to find out the greater mysteries, we must return to the beginning, to our humanity, with a fresh perspective of exploration and learning, and as Gaius found out, humility.

I am certain this is the story Moore et al. wanted to tell here at the end, and I think they made a couple of decisions about certain issues just not getting covered as well as thhey could have been in order to preserve these themes without muddying them too much. I think they had to at one point consciously sit down and decide "Well guys, we are going to have to let this and this slide, becuase it just isn't doable in this framework without diluting the core elements."

Sure, they made a couple of mistakes. Given all that can and does go wrong with a show, I can forgive a couple of slips on the hill, as the climb was so well worth it overall.

I like your previous post, Seds. And it works well. I suppose my own issue here is seeing this from too much of a writer's perspective. I have had drilled into my writer's brain for decades that you just cannot start breaking your own universe's set of rules and get away with it. Having also had beta readers tell me this or that element of a story doesn't work because of the same sorts of things I just saw on Friday keeps me slightly irked by some of the logical errors I saw. I mean, I DON'T get paid to do this for a living ... and they do. So why am I expected to play by the rules, and they can just sit around and ignore some of them?

I hope that makes sense ... and doesn't sound TOO gripey. Just trying to explain the frustration a little bit.

Also, I totally "get" the idea that they have only so much time to work with and certain things have to not be covered. That's not my gripe. My gripe is that they DID cover these things (Kara, her body/viper, her angelness, etc.), but that they chose what I consider to be inferior ways to cover them.

I mean, they took some of their precious time this season to introduce new elements and characters: Daniel, Kara's dad (who, somehow, is not Daniel!), Sean Ellison, Roslin's sisters, Zach, etc. etc. And with Daniel and Kara especially, they led us down paths that were totally wrong (no connection to Daniel, no reason her body and viper were on First Earth, etc.).

So, if you're going to sit in that writers' room and discuss this stuff, then who said, "Let's put in all this stuff ... but then end up over here instead"?

See what I mean?

And can you see where Yoda gets half of his nitpickiness?

Well, I think they just made a mistake with some of that stuff. The complexity of a show with an ensemble cast of this size, with duplicates of some characters AND a boatload of convoluted time-shifting/memory erasing/resurrection etc. just HAS to have a chink in the armor here and there.

Really though, I can't sit and defend the Kara thing, because they mishandled it. Shame on them, for sure, and I think Moore KNOWS he dropped the ball on this thing. As he said , he came at the whole Daniel thing from a different angle while he was constructing it, with Cavil's development in mind, only later to get gut punched by fan reaction, to the point that he made an official statement. Considering the level of material this crew delivered over the coarse of of the entire series, I can forgive this one.

I'll forgive it too, eventually. Just not this week, probably.