Möbius Strip logic in Jacob's Ladder - Untagged Spoilers in 1st Post!

Jacob's Ladder is a horror version of An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge. At the end of the film, we learn that the whole film was basically in the head of our protagonist "Jacob." The film is his experience of dying in Vietnam. He is having a vision of what his life might have been.

This raises logical problems within the narrative, in which incompatible aspects of the narrative "feed" each other.

Per Wikipedia,

So, we start with a mystery. Why did this happen? Fast forward to Jacob living his life as postal employee in New York after the war. He is divorced. He lost a child. He has a girlfriend who works and lives with him. As the film progresses Jacob is tortured by demonic visions that become increasingly threatening. It turns out, that vets who served in Jacob's unit are suffering from similar visions. Are the demons real or did something happen to them in Vietnam?

Per Wikipedia

Things get worse for Jacob and he starts having flashbacks to Vietnam.

Jacob finally meets a chemist who explains what was done to his platoon in Vietnam. The chemist, who was basically impressed into participating in chemical warfare research explains,

As it turns out, Jacob's Battalion was given a dose of the drug, driving them insane. They did not fight the Vietcong. They killed each other in a frenzy. Thus, the opening scene of the film is the aftermath of a government experiment gone wrong.

There is a deleted scene (alternate ending) in which Jacob gets a Chemical Exorcism and he is cured from the demons in his head.



But this was not the film that was released, and this raises logical problems. In the film that was released, Jacob never made it out of Vietnam. He dies from his wounds in the attack on the village in the Mekong Delta. If that attack was caused "The Ladder," how would Jacob discover this through a delusion while dying in 'Nam?

The film leaves us with a few possibilities.

1. "It's all a dream." Jacob did die in Vietnam. There are no demons. There is no life in New York. There is no drug ("The Ladder" drug does not exist). Jacob just has a really outstanding script-writing delusional mind. This is a logically consistent reading.

2. "It's a vision of the future!" Jacob did die in Vietnam. There are no demons, but he is seeing what his life would have been like in New York. And yes, he was given that terrible drug. But this raises a problem. This is not a logically consistent reading (at least not if we rule out premonitions as being real).

2a. "It would have happened anyway!" How complete was this vision? Would he have eventually suffered from delusions of being tortured by demons too? Would he have learned the truth of being drugged from the Chemist? This is a mildly supernatural ending, in the sense that Jacob does have a psychic vision of the future - This is 100% premonition. If so, Jacob would have been tortured by visions of demons eventually, because The Ladder would have continued to works its chemical magic. If so, the film is logically incompatible with a realist reading of the text, because premonition is not a thing in the real world. We're still in the realm of the fantastic and not merely the mundane world of chemicals.
2b. "It, more or less, would have happened anyway." Jacob did die in Vietnam. He is seeing what his life would have been like in New York. And yes, he was given that terrible drug. However, if he had lived, he would NOT have had visions of demons, because these visions are part of him dying in 'Nam. This reading, however, does not logically fit, because it is visions of demons which cause him to find out about The Ladder from the chemist. This reading is doubly inconsistent logically, because premonitions don't fit a realist reading, and because the delusions have to occur in the future for Jacob to be motivated to learn the truth about the drug. Partial premonition appears to be the weakest reading so far.

3. Demons is real! This is the deeply supernatural reading. This fits with the Angelic role of Louis (Danny Aiello) who tells Jacob that the visions are just the next life prodding him to move on. Louis tells Jacob:

But what of the role of the drug on this reading? If the demons are caused by chemicals, how can they also be supernatural? Did the drug serve as a conduit to let demonic visions/angels cause the massacre, but then also help Jacob move on? Are the demons "bull****ting" Jacob with a story of his life in New York? That is, he never would have been a postal worker in New York dating a woman with "great hips"? If so, how do we account for the massacre at the start of the story? Was it a mundane massacre (Vietcong killed U.S. troops) or a cover-up?

The only consistent reading to the text that cleanly reduces to an answer is #1. All other readings fold in on each other with questions about how inconsistent realities can all be true.

Ultimately, the trivia of the answers don't matter. What matters is "the journey." However, if the film has "a point" then we do need to know "what happened" in the broadest of strokes. As we get the film, however, it does not appear to be willing to give us these answers. Thus

1. it is drugs,

2. a delusion while dying (of being drugged and demonically menaced), and

3. it is demons

We cannot really put our feet on solid ground.

I just watched this movie recently and had the same question once the ending was revealed (that he was simply hallucinating as he was dying). If *none* of that post-war stuff really happened to him, how would he have hallucinated about the drug experiment? He'd never known about it. Unless it was a complete hallucinatory fabrication of his own mind.

And then, of course, it becomes even *less* interesting.

It's sad that this otherwise unsettling, excellent film left me with that weird plot hole/gap.

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I suppose one could argue whether it is a "feature" or a "bug," but it is definitely an "opening" or "gap" or "hole." It is like an Escher painting of the hand drawing itself.

I brought up the plot hole about the drug several days ago, in fact. This is what I wrote:

It's been a while since I've seen Jacob's Ladder, but I remember enjoying it quite a lot. The only thing I'm confused on is

Overall, I do like the ending quite a bit and I think it's a good concept, but yeah, it would've benefitted with another round of editing.

I haven't seen the film in a LONG time, but here is another possible interpretation: What if Jacob and his own comrades really did turn on each other and part of his hallucination is inventing the idea of the drug as an excuse? The entire film is a battle between the "truth" and a reality/fantasy created in Jacob's head, right? So what if the story about the drug is a way of explaining why he and his fellow soldiers turned on each other? I mean, the drug basically gives the gift of "it wasn't your fault" and allows Jacob to explain away violence he did to others or that was done to him by people he trusted.

I like it, but it also raises a new unresolved question. Why would the battalion have turned on itself? Our attempts at closure with this film seem to create more openings.

@Corax ... with that deleted scene, is that then how/where that version of the movie would have ended? It leaves you with a completely different vibe, of course. And yet it still wouldn't explain whether or not the powers that be would continue to hunt/haunt him, since they'd been killing the other survivors of his unit.

Is that new question then left unanswered?

Neither version of this has the closure one would like in a story like this. (sigh)

Yeah, I can't think of any interpretations of the drug that provide the film with closure. If the drug was real, that leaves unanswered questions on how they knew about it. If the drug wasn't real, that leaves unanswered questions on why the men in Jacob's unit turned on each other in the opening.

Btw, this is unrelated, but are you a Corrie/RT poster? I remember you making a hint that you were, but I may be mistaken.

Hmm, my memory is poor here, since I have not watched the film in a while. Some of the deaths were suicides, right? If so, those do not need a supernatural explanation. I seem to recall an exploding car or two. The exploding cars would be consistent with a government cover-up, right?

Per Wikipedia we get,

One of Jacob's former platoon mates, Paul, contacts him to reveal he is suffering from similar experiences, but is soon afterwards killed when his car explodes. Commiserating after the funeral, other surviving members of the platoon confess that they have all been experiencing horrifying hallucinations. Believing that they are suffering the effects of a military experiment performed on them without their knowledge or consent, they hire a lawyer, Mr. Geary, to investigate. However the lawyer quits the case after reading military files documenting that the soldiers were never in combat and were discharged for psychological reasons. Jacob's comrades soon back down while Jacob suspects they have been threatened into doing so. He is abducted by suited men, who attempt to be government agents, who try to intimidate him. Jacob fights them and escapes but is injured and nearly paralyzed in the process. He is admitted to a hospital where he faints from exhaustion, but is then led through a dark, bloody corridor with severed limbs on the floor. This section of the hospital houses mental patients and objects reminding Jacob of Gabe's death. While here, Jacob is tortured by a demonic doctor, as well as Jezebel and an eyeless figure. While back in the normal hospital room, his chiropractor friend Louie comes to his rescue and heals him.

The government cover up would seem to explain the car bombs. The government really is out to get them on the "mundane" reading, right? Does this explain it or am I missing a turn here?

I mean, to a certain extent we are trying to square plot elements that do not cohere with what is presented to us.

In times of stress I have had some pretty crazy dreams/nightmares. Since what we are seeing (in terms of the film that was actually released) is all Jacob's nightmare/hallucination, asking for logic might be too big an ask.

Here's another thought: What if Jacob and his unit were given a series of vaccinations or other (benign) injections before their last mission? What if Jacob's dying brain took those injections and morphed them into something more menacing, or grabbed hold of them as a possible explanation for what happened to him?

I understand the question about how Jacob would know about the drug if it were all in his head. But this question doesn't actually bother me. Like I said, in times of stress my brain has created some pretty elaborate scenarios while I was asleep. Imagining that maybe you were given a strange drug is not out of the realm of what a person might hallucinate. People under severe emotional/mental duress (you know, like dying) can develop very elaborate "conspiracy theories".

I was YARN at RT. I am not looking to battle every point to the death here, however, so Corax will hopefully be less of a contrarian gadfly. Sometimes it's just nice to have a pleasant conversation about movies.

Aye, gotcha. For what it's worth, I do like you as a poster. We occasionally had our differences, but I'm glad you joined this forum with us. Hopefully, you enjoy it here!

I agree that the "it's all a dream" reading ties a nice ribbon on it. And I think your observation that dream logic is not really logical adds something to vouching for this as a preferred reading. This would make the film a bit like The Usual Suspects

On the other hand, the attempt to reductively "rationalize" something like an M.C. Escher painting is to kind of miss the point, right? Perhaps we're not supposed really know the answer, so much as "take the trip"? In this sense, our success in rationalizing the artwork might undo its essence and quality?

If the government IS out to get the survivors, then just healing Jacob's head-demons will necessarily save/help him. The government would still be chasing him... AND that chemist.

I think a quotation from Big Trouble in Little China covers this concern

Jack: All right, out this hatch and up the cable. Does that sound like a brilliant idea or what?

Wang: The cable is three storeys high and covered with grease.

Jack: Exactly. It's real and we can touch it, so at least we know where we stand.

Wang: Yeah, in deep ****.

That is, Jacob is still screwed, but he's screwed in a logically consistent universe.

Of course, this did not happen (it's an alternate ending), so we are still trapped in Mobius logic.

I never thought of it as a plot hole. The way I saw it, his mind was already partislly aware of the drug's existence, and while in a comatose state he was slowly coming to terms with his death. The mind has an incredible ability to write its own reality. We only use 10% of its capacity. What can it do when we're not in control? Create a logical world so realistic that the unreal feels like a part of it. Jacob's mimd can more or less figure reality out on its own, leaving the question: did the drugs enhance that ability?


This is one of my favorite movies, btw. It feels made for me: a psycho-horror-thriller with surrealist and wartime scenes, some of the characters share names in my family, and the kid is played by my childhood hero, Macaulay Culkin.

Cool with your take, but just wanted point out this claim, which also provided the basis for the movie Lucy, is wildly inaccurate and is simply popularized by people wanting others to believe in psychics/telekinesis. Our brain is compartmentalize, with different areas controlling different functions. So, to use “100%” of your brain would essentially being doing everything you could conceivably do at once. Which doesn’t make you any smarter/more creative/psychic . It makes you a flailing, screaming, bowel evacuating, maniac.

Not really. During a hallucination, say a dream, time moves by either much slower or much quicker. Some people can go through entire lifetimes in a few minutes during hallucinations. The difference here is that you have no control over anything based on the Jacob's Ladder plot, but the Lucy plot is grounded in sci-fi where as the Jacob's Ladder plot is more grounded in actual records od psychotic episodes and paranoid delusions. Not to mention, there's the phenomenon of familiarity. Many times you don't literally go through an entire lifetime, but you remember all of the memories relevant to the plot of your dream, despite many of them being unreal. I have dreams like that all the time. If the drug messed with Jacob's brain, then his perceptionbof reality when awake is completely jarred and erratic since he has no control. But unconscious he's trying to regain as much control as possible without being aware of it, as if his body is telling him that's how he's going to survive.


Basically, his brain is trying to recreate reality as much as possible while maintaining the control the drugs are trying to take away from him. When he comes to terms with his death, he doesn't need to worry about the drugs anymore.

This explanation has been proposed many times and I favor it. The fact that Jacob saw that one of his own men killed him, I believe that this gives him the impetus to create the whole hallucination just prior to dying. A very elaborate creation with real elements thrown in. The real elements are his wife and kids, members of his platoon, and maybe his chiropractor Louis. Jezebel? Not sure if he knew her before he went to Vietnam. Maybe he knew her casually and lusted over her in his mind. I think all the other characters in the movie were un-real elements of his dream.

I like this movie. I still watch it occasionally when it pops up on cable. It's very disturbing but the ending calms me down and makes the watching all worth while -- for me.

He also goes to a party with Jezebel where "My Thang" by James Brown is played, a song that was not released until 1974. If he is dying in a tent in 1971, how does he have knowledge of this song for his hallucination? If, on the other hand, Jacob really is living in NYC in 1975, then it makes sense that a song released the year before would be playing.