Evolution 2 - Never-ending Debate

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The church has nothing to do with the Bible except for interpretation, teaching, brainwashing, promoting, but really what the hell was I thinking that's clearly nothing.
You're completely misunderstanding (not surprising). The point is that "The Church" is not Gospel. It's made up of very fallible humans. You're making a mistake virtually every anti-religious person does: mistaking God and his followers for one and the same. The Bible does not encourage this ridiculous behavior. Look at any group of people and you'll have crap in plain view.

I'm no English major but this sounds an awful lot like the Church forbidding Galileo from following up on Copernican Theory. Anyone looking for the truth was committing heresy and could spend the rest of their life in prison, ie Galileo. It wasn't a mistake "made by basically everyone" but rather a systematic enforcement of the status quo forced upon people by the church in order to maintain control. Boy doesn't that sound vaguely familiar throughout history.
Perhaps, if your arguments consisted of more than rhetoric and sarcasm, you'd make a decent point.

The church issuing a decree does not mean that it was not a mistake made by basically everyone. It means that the church was along with it the whole way.

Of course science can't disprove things. It can't disprove the world is flat or the Earth is the center of the universe or that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Thankfully none of that could ever be disproved.
It can't disprove things, period. There are things it can all but disprove, but that's it. To deny that is to deny what science really is.

Oh yes, science makes corrections to honest errors in theory while religion simply continues to tell unfounded, baseless fairy tales under a veil of righteousness. Science uses all evidence found over the course of the 4.5 billion years of Earth's existence while religion relies on a 2000 year old book of fairy tales full of contradictions and errors. Apparently according to religion, nothing happened before a few thousand years ago except for that whole God creation thing that's so popular. I can definitely see your point there.
4.5 billion, eh? What do you base that on? Some article you've read. Yes, oh so much more credible than the belief in creationism, held by the overwhelming majority of people of people on this planet. The Bible is not full of contradictions. Gonna back that one up ($20 says you've got a link to a skeptic's website behind that faulty claim).

Next time I think you should back up your own claims instead of bashing claims that you can't disprove as you all have attempted to do in this thread. For a man so high on himself and God you'd think you'd have something, anything that can be substantiated in any way at all relating to the existence of God or creation or heaven or evil, etc.
High on myself how? High on God? Yeah, I sure am. Because common sense dictates that this level of complexity can not evolve through chance. Darwin himself said it. Would you see a large stone, 10 feet tall and 10 feet wide, and highly smooth, sitting somewhere like, say, the moon, and assume that it got there on it's own? Hell no: you'd assume that some intelligent being put it there.

Let me ask you this: what do YOU believe? Where do you think we all came from? I'm referring to the earth, AND the human race. FYI: you're "bashing claims you can't disprove" as well. Next time, practice what you preach (no pun intended).



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Originally posted by TWTCommish
You're completely misunderstanding (not surprising). The point is that "The Church" is not Gospel. It's made up of very fallible humans. You're making a mistake virtually every anti-religious person does: mistaking God and his followers for one and the same. The Bible does not encourage this ridiculous behavior. Look at any group of people and you'll have crap in plain view.

Well since you can't prove the existence of God and he's nowhere to be seen, it's safe to assume "The Church" plays a huge role in the "Gospel". I can't mistake God for anything if he doesn't exist. Maybe you're mistaking God for something since you actually believe in him.

Perhaps, if your arguments consisted of more than rhetoric and sarcasm, you'd make a decent point.

And if your arguments weren't so childishly based on everything in the universe being relative to your particular baseless religious beliefs then I'd not waste my time. A couple hundred thousand years of man on Earth practicing all types of religions, praying to all types of gods, but you and your Bible are the ones who are really right. Wink, wink, nod, nod. Right...

The church issuing a decree does not mean that it was not a mistake made by basically everyone. It means that the church was along with it the whole way.

No what it means is that the church, which held enormous power in those times, was intentionally using it's influence to stop scientific study that could lessen the power of the church. There is no other reason for it to have been done.

It can't disprove things, period. There are things it can all but disprove, but that's it. To deny that is to deny what science really is.

You keep believing what you want while the rest of the world moves on knowing the world isn't flat, period. I tell you what though, you give me all the data you have on how the world really is flat and I'll make sure and forward it to the Vatican.

4.5 billion, eh? What do you base that on? Some article you've read. Yes, oh so much more credible than the belief in creationism, held by the overwhelming majority of people of people on this planet. The Bible is not full of contradictions. Gonna back that one up ($20 says you've got a link to a skeptic's website behind that faulty claim).

No I base that on this thing called Geology that I studied in college. It's really neat. They show you how they cardon date materials and such and then extrapilate on it. It's amazing but it's really not up there with And on the first day God created Earth. We all know the world is really about 13 days old and of course that can't be proven by anything but aw hell it works in well with that 7 day thing. I'll tell you what though, you tell me how old the Earth is and just edit my post to reflect the age and it still doesn't change the premise of that sentence which you so deftly tried to mangle for your own purposes.

You're the king of faulty claims in this thread so I wouldn't even bother with that but I do happen to have a Bible that a Christian friend of mine gave me so let's start right at the beginning.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.


That must have been a cool trick how he created the Earth before the Sun and the stars. I mean we all know the Earth is older than the rest of the universe which, assuming constant expansion, of course would make Earth either the center of the universe (which would surely please the Vatican) or that would make it the far edge of the universe. I think this is where someone tells me I'm not supposed to take the Bible literally. I'm supposed to believe he created everything but then I'm to think he screwed up how he remembered doing it. A Superior Being indeed!

High on myself how? High on God? Yeah, I sure am. Because common sense dictates that this level of complexity can not evolve through chance. Darwin himself said it. Would you see a large stone, 10 feet tall and 10 feet wide, and highly smooth, sitting somewhere like, say, the moon, and assume that it got there on it's own? Hell no: you'd assume that some intelligent being put it there.

When speaking of God you shouldn't utter the phrase common sense. The existence of God makes NO sense at all, much less common sense. Evolution isn't complex, it's rather simple. Life adjusts to it's surroundings in order to survive. As the surroundings change, life changes with it. If you don't change, you die. The only problem with it is that evolution is such a slow process that to this point hasn't been largely observeable in anything meaningful enough to get your immediate attention. I could point out the Panda thumb thing which I read about recently but that's probably not the chimp into a bear type of evolution that it would take to get your attention. In time that will change and future creationists will have nothing to stand on but their debunked worthless bibles.

Scientists make assumptions based on verifiable evidence not on strange stones on the moon. You should drop that stone line because it is soooooooo weak. Assume that NASA took a picture of the moon and a face showed up, would we assume that it got there on it's own!?!? Hell no! We'd assume that some intelligent being created it so we wouldn't waste 30 years of avoiding sending more cameras to take pictures of it! WOOHOO!!

Let me ask you this: what do YOU believe? Where do you think we all came from? I'm referring to the earth, AND the human race. FYI: you're "bashing claims you can't disprove" as well. Next time, practice what you preach (no pun intended).

I believe it's much easier for you creationists to glue together pseudo-scientific questions about evolution than it is for real scientists to debunk all of your nonsense. The difference between you and I is that I'd be glad to hear your evidence with an open mind but you have none and will only question science because of your faith in God, not out of a sincerity to genuinely find truth. One day you creationists will try to pawn yourselves off as scientists and come up with really cool oxymorons like "Creation Science" or something psuedo-science like Intelligent Design Theory. Nah, that would never happen. Incidentally, these will be the first scientific theories based on the existence of a supernatural being without actually proving that the being exists. Nice!

Some of you have boldly claimed that only micro-evolution is possible. I have a question for you. How many times is it possible? If you think that's the only type possible, then what are the rules there? How many times can a species micro-evolve? What about a species that lives on two continents? What if within continent A, species X split into two halves due to whatever. One in the north X1 and one in the south X2. Species X1 has mirco-evolved 50 times over 100,000 years due to colder weather/predators/whatever while Species X2 has micro-evolved only 4 times in the same period. What if Species X1 micro-evolved in a way that it was no longer able to reproduce with Species X2? Similarly, you have Species Y1, Y2, and Y3 on continent B having the same types of micro-evolution affected by it's environment which is very different from continent A. We have ONE species, on TWO continents, all micro-evolving due to their environments over the course of 100,000 years. When you scoop up the original X1, X2, Y1, Y2, and Y3 and put them all together do you think that it just might be possible that they have all micro-evolved enough to be distinct enough from each other in a way befitting a seperate species? Yep, I'm afraid it is possible and probably pretty likely.

Now when some of you say, well as long as we can remember nothing has changed. How long do you remember? 100 years? Regardless if you believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old or 4.5 million years old, that's a hell of a HELL of a lot longer than 100 years. You know the magnetic poles have shifted many MANY times. None of us are old enough to remember it but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And yes it can be proved.... don't even go there.

And another thing, there are transitional fossils within the record for life forms other than man. Some of you seem to think they don't exist. Perhaps if the rate of sedimentation was much faster than the rate of man's evolution, there would be such a complete direct link of man that would be easy to find. Unfortunately that's not the case but it certainly doesn't mean that a transitional fossil of man doesn't exist.



Comic Relief:

Travis is still alive.

This would have gotten very heavy, very quick otherwise.
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Timing's Avatar
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Sh*t... you should read your own posts pal. You've got self-righteous proselytizer's disease. I'm going to go try to prove the existence of the moon right now. Later...



Oooookaaaaaaay.

Can't this be a friendly debate? For God's sake, it doesn't need to be heated and mean and nasty. It can be a battling of minds and believes without name calling and such. Take a chill pill everyone and smile. Let's have a debate with reasonable points, a lot of THINKING. Anyone can win a debate with nastiness, it takes skill to win with points. So please.



Timing's Avatar
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I didn't call anyone any names unless calling someone a Creationist is offensive to those who believe in creation. It's simply annoying to debate with people who's entire logic is based on the completely unverifiable. It's like when your dad says you're grounded and you ask why and he says because I said so. Oh okaaaaay, there we go. Same thing here. God exists well because he said so in the Bible, yeah, that's the ticket. And we exist because God created us... yeah, there ya go. And the universe only exists because... God made it so.... yeah... and 4+4 is only 8 because... yeah God gives it that meaning... yeah.

Whatever... who can seriously debate with that kinda logic.



Timing's Avatar
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Originally posted by The Silver Bullet
Well, you have been.

LMAO Good point. I will now hibernate before pre-Super Bowl festivities. Thanks for the laugh! Almost coughed up one of my kidneys!

Patriots by 10. I'm calling the shot right here!



Patriots by 10? That's less logical than anything I've been saying.

I have not been self-righteous. Don't you see? You're going off...flipping out. Doing whatever you can to demonize religion. You're claiming it was completely false, and stupid, and ridiculous. You can't even understand how someone could believe it. I, on the other hand, am NOT being quite so harsh with your beliefs. That's what I mean by self-righteous: you're completely wrong, I'm not only wrong, but I'm crazy for believing these things, and you won't be convinced otherwise. That's narrow-minded, and VERY self-righteous.

Here's why I believe in it: it makes logical sense. Why?
  • Without some Supreme Being, right and wrong are only opinions. Perhaps you disagree, but I think some things are truly, absolutely wrong.
  • Things don't get this complex through chance. No, I did not say that evolution was complex -- read what I wrote again. WE are complex. This world is complex. Darwin himself admitted that the human retena throws a wrench into "his" theory. Like I said: you wouldn't assume a smooth stone like that got there by itself. So why would you assume a planet, much more precise and complex, would just show up? What do you believe in, The Big Bang? Some big explosion? Something that just always here (like God)? Something that came from nothing. Where'd it all start. No matter what, you're going to have to believe in something completely unprovable. It's called faith, my friend, and EVERYONE has it, regardless of whether or not they believe in God. Perhaps you think highly enough of yourself and your beliefs that you won't acknowledge that faith plays a role, though.
  • If God doesn't exist, I must ask you: why do anything nice? Why do anything that does not completely benefit YOU? After all, we're only cells and chemicals. Things like love and guilt are just chemical reactions. Nothing more to them. No right and wrong. So why attempt to be moral in any way? Why care about your children? Why do any of those things?
  • The overwhelming majority of people believe in some kind of God. While I've never been dead positive of my believe in Jesus Christ specifically (I'm still learning about it all), I AM dead positive in my belief of some sort of God. If you only believe what can be proven, Timing, you're not going to be able to believe in a whole lot. But no matter: 5 and a half billion people are wrong. Yet you are one of the few who's seen the light. Uh-huh.
Scientists make assumptions based on verifiable evidence not on strange stones on the moon. You should drop that stone line because it is soooooooo weak. Assume that NASA took a picture of the moon and a face showed up, would we assume that it got there on it's own!?!? Hell no! We'd assume that some intelligent being created it so we wouldn't waste 30 years of avoiding sending more cameras to take pictures of it! WOOHOO!!
You're not making any sense. You're also changing the subject. There's no way in hell you'd assume a stone like that would just show up. You'd assume something intelligent put it there. Why? Preciseness, and complexity, imply intelligence. If all you've got is "it's sooooo weak," without any true explanation, well, I'm not the one who's bringing weak arguments.

It's simply annoying to debate with people who's entire logic is based on the completely unverifiable. It's like when your dad says you're grounded and you ask why and he says because I said so. Oh okaaaaay, there we go. Same thing here. God exists well because he said so in the Bible, yeah, that's the ticket. And we exist because God created us... yeah, there ya go. And the universe only exists because... God made it so.... yeah... and 4+4 is only 8 because... yeah God gives it that meaning... yeah.
Interesting...I don't recall saying those things. I think you've got a problem...it's a problem I see in virtually every single one of these arguments: some anti-religious person making arguments against "The Church," or wacko Christian groups, or some Christians they've talked with in the past, rather than against the actual beliefs of the religion, and the Christian they're talking to.



evolution is happening.......spud, didn't you claim we have no proof of it acting in fully evolved humans? it just happens so slowly...like tooose said, we're but a speck of a speck on the time scale of the existence of our universe and developing life. you can see racial or regional differences in people that are merely successfully evolved traits for particular conditions and climates.

nordic people have longer, skinnier noses because they function to warm the cold air as it is breathed in.
eskimo's tend to be short and thicker.
dark skin works well in tropic climates because ????????why?????

but as humans on the top of the food chain we don't need to change. perhaps we will evolve to better survive our planets man-made pollution! or to be better at multi-tasking in our busy busy lifestyles....
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I ain't gettin' in no fryer!
Evolution isn't happening in humans...more in animals.

Humans never evolved from an amoeba, why people want to think this is crazy.

I want to know exactly where Humans evolved from a tiny little speck. Why they think we evolved even from monkey's is crazy as well.

If we evolved from monkey's how is it that the monkey's in today's society haven't showed signs of evolving into a human? Primates have taken on human characteristics, but only through training from human's. Prove to me that monkey's knew sign language before they were taught and you'll have my full attention.
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Timing's Avatar
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Originally posted by TWTCommish
Patriots by 10? That's less logical than anything I've been saying.

Well by 3, they were up 14 and I was looking pretty but they started getting tired. I'll pat myself on the back now.

I have not been self-righteous. Don't you see? You're going off...flipping out. Doing whatever you can to demonize religion. You're claiming it was completely false, and stupid, and ridiculous. You can't even understand how someone could believe it. I, on the other hand, am NOT being quite so harsh with your beliefs. That's what I mean by self-righteous: you're completely wrong, I'm not only wrong, but I'm crazy for believing these things, and you won't be convinced otherwise. That's narrow-minded, and VERY self-righteous.

I haven't demonized religion anymore than it has demonized itself throughout history. There are countless examples of how religion and the church have been used to destroy people and perpetuate lies in order to maintain it's authority over people. You are wrong because the entire premise of your belief in creation begins with a point that you can't substantiate. You can't substantiate the existence of God and therefore can't substantiate anything that you claim he has created. It would be like saying Mr X committed a crime but you can't prove there even is a Mr X.

Here's why I believe in it: it makes logical sense. Why?[list][*]Without some Supreme Being, right and wrong are only opinions. Perhaps you disagree, but I think some things are truly, absolutely wrong.

Even if you believe some things are truly and absolutely wrong how can you substantiate that if everyone doesn't believe the same thing? You can say murder is wrong yet there are countries where murder is acceptable and supported by their religion under certain circumstances. There are many past religions that believed in human sacrifice. Therefore murder being wrong isn't universal and therefore can't be absolutely wrong. It's only absolutely wrong according to your Christian beliefs.

[*]Things don't get this complex through chance. No, I did not say that evolution was complex -- read what I wrote again. WE are complex. This world is complex. Darwin himself admitted that the human retena throws a wrench into "his" theory. Like I said: you wouldn't assume a smooth stone like that got there by itself. So why would you assume a planet, much more precise and complex, would just show up? What do you believe in, The Big Bang? Some big explosion? Something that just always here (like God)? Something that came from nothing. Where'd it all start. No matter what, you're going to have to believe in something completely unprovable. It's called faith, my friend, and EVERYONE has it, regardless of whether or not they believe in God. Perhaps you think highly enough of yourself and your beliefs that you won't acknowledge that faith plays a role, though.

Life is all about random chance and chaos. Simply because we cannot at this time prove where the universe came from or how it began doesn't automatically default the answer to the existence of a God. At many times throughout history there have been things that were misunderstood and until scientific study really took shape there was a lot credited to God. People believed comets were signs from God and they believed eclipses were signs from God and that the seasons were run by a God. All of this today is completely silly because now we know better and we know exactly what comets are and how eclipses happen and they have nothing to do with signs from God. This is why people would say your belief in God as an explanation for the universe is a cop out. As our technology becomes more advanced we understand more and more and I'm confident there will be a day where we know with a relative certainty how the universe came to be. However, your belief in creation is no more valid than that guy who posted his bunny rabbit theory. You can no more substantiate creation than he could substantiate that. Human beings simply are at an intelligence level where we're above regular animals who don't have a need to grasp for answers to those questions and just below an intelligence level where we could know those things to a relatively certainty. So what I do I believe? I believe I don't have the slightest clue how the universe came to be but I believe we will know one day through tried and tested scientific means. I guess that's what I believe.

[*]If God doesn't exist, I must ask you: why do anything nice? Why do anything that does not completely benefit YOU? After all, we're only cells and chemicals. Things like love and guilt are just chemical reactions. Nothing more to them. No right and wrong. So why attempt to be moral in any way? Why care about your children? Why do any of those things?

I live a moral life because I respect my family and I respect life. In the grand scope of the universe it's completely meaningless but my life isn't meaningless to me.

[*]The overwhelming majority of people believe in some kind of God. While I've never been dead positive of my believe in Jesus Christ specifically (I'm still learning about it all), I AM dead positive in my belief of some sort of God. If you only believe what can be proven, Timing, you're not going to be able to believe in a whole lot. But no matter: 5 and a half billion people are wrong. Yet you are one of the few who's seen the light. Uh-huh.

I would never and I hope no one else would ever base their beliefs on what the overwhelming majority of people believed. As I pointed out before, the overwhelming number of people throughout history have believed a lot of really idiotic things and have eventually been proven completely wrong. So yes billions and billions and billions of people can be wrong and have been many MANY times. You're making the classic mistake of believing your presence on this Earth is THE one point in history when in fact your life on Earth is but a tiny tiny spec on the timeline of mankind. Things have not always been as they are now nor will they likely be in the future.

You're not making any sense. You're also changing the subject. There's no way in hell you'd assume a stone like that would just show up. You'd assume something intelligent put it there. Why? Preciseness, and complexity, imply intelligence. If all you've got is "it's sooooo weak," without any true explanation, well, I'm not the one who's bringing weak arguments.

It was your subject. You're bringing up completely subjective hypotheticals. You're acting like a smooth stone is something complex that can't be made by the elements or even a river. It's akin to the comet analogy, we don't know what it is or how it got here but it's rather extraordinary and beyond our technology so it must be God.

Interesting...I don't recall saying those things. I think you've got a problem...it's a problem I see in virtually every single one of these arguments: some anti-religious person making arguments against "The Church," or wacko Christian groups, or some Christians they've talked with in the past, rather than against the actual beliefs of the religion, and the Christian they're talking to.

You are the people practicing the religion. Who the heck should I hold accountable for what is preached and taught? The Bible is the word of God no? The creationist argument begins and ends right there.



Timing's Avatar
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Originally posted by spudracer
Evolution isn't happening in humans...more in animals.

Humans never evolved from an amoeba, why people want to think this is crazy.

I want to know exactly where Humans evolved from a tiny little speck. Why they think we evolved even from monkey's is crazy as well.

If we evolved from monkey's how is it that the monkey's in today's society haven't showed signs of evolving into a human? Primates have taken on human characteristics, but only through training from human's. Prove to me that monkey's knew sign language before they were taught and you'll have my full attention.

Man's current ability to create tools and technology probably seriously retards our evolution in relation to other animals. Evolution happens as a result of changes in environment but since we can control our environment to a great extent then we have little need to evolve. If the world suffered a 1,000 year ice age then you might see some evolution in man.


Getting back to the topic of evolution however, how many times can a species micro-evolve? If some of you believe that's the only form of evolution possible then how many times is it possible? I think you can easily see the problem in your beliefs based on that question alone.



I ain't gettin' in no fryer!
Originally posted by Timing
Man's current ability to create tools and technology probably seriously retards our evolution in relation to other animals. Evolution happens as a result of changes in environment but since we can control our environment to a great extent then we have little need to evolve. If the world suffered a 1,000 year ice age then you might see some evolution in man.
Yeah...we would die. Man can not survive in a 1,000 year ice age. Just can't do it.

Back in the medieval times, we weren't controlling our enviroment. Back in the old west, we weren't controlling our enviroment. Back in the early American time, 1776, etc., no control in enviroment.

We've only controlled our enviroment in the 1900's through industries and what not. We're pretty much killing the planet through all of this. There's your control of the enviroment.



I haven't demonized religion anymore than it has demonized itself throughout history. There are countless examples of how religion and the church have been used to destroy people and perpetuate lies in order to maintain it's authority over people. You are wrong because the entire premise of your belief in creation begins with a point that you can't substantiate. You can't substantiate the existence of God and therefore can't substantiate anything that you claim he has created. It would be like saying Mr X committed a crime but you can't prove there even is a Mr X.
Of course I can't prove it. Did I said I could? If I had proof, you'd believe it, too. Fact of the matter there's almost nothing resembling proof no matter what your belief is. What is your belief? The Big Bang? No proof. We don't have proof anymore -- so we go by evidence, and common sense, and to me (and to anyone reasonable, IMO), complexity at this level implies intelligence.

Even if you believe some things are truly and absolutely wrong how can you substantiate that if everyone doesn't believe the same thing? You can say murder is wrong yet there are countries where murder is acceptable and supported by their religion under certain circumstances. There are many past religions that believed in human sacrifice. Therefore murder being wrong isn't universal and therefore can't be absolutely wrong. It's only absolutely wrong according to your Christian beliefs.
Aren't you reading what I'm typing? An absolute right and wrong isn't contingent on what people think. That's what makes it ABSOLUTE! That's the whole point, man: I believe in a right and wrong that is right, or wrong, REGARDLESS of the majority's opinion. Perhaps you think rape and murder of the innocent is right if the majority of people are okay with it, but I don't. I think it's wrong, PERIOD.

Life is all about random chance and chaos. Simply because we cannot at this time prove where the universe came from or how it began doesn't automatically default the answer to the existence of a God. At many times throughout history there have been things that were misunderstood and until scientific study really took shape there was a lot credited to God. People believed comets were signs from God and they believed eclipses were signs from God and that the seasons were run by a God. All of this today is completely silly because now we know better and we know exactly what comets are and how eclipses happen and they have nothing to do with signs from God. This is why people would say your belief in God as an explanation for the universe is a cop out. As our technology becomes more advanced we understand more and more and I'm confident there will be a day where we know with a relative certainty how the universe came to be. However, your belief in creation is no more valid than that guy who posted his bunny rabbit theory. You can no more substantiate creation than he could substantiate that. Human beings simply are at an intelligence level where we're above regular animals who don't have a need to grasp for answers to those questions and just below an intelligence level where we could know those things to a relatively certainty. So what I do I believe? I believe I don't have the slightest clue how the universe came to be but I believe we will know one day through tried and tested scientific means. I guess that's what I believe.
Well, good, at least you admit your ignorance. I admit mine, too. Seems you've traded off arrogance and imagined knowledge for rudeness and anger. Not a bad trade, necessarily.

Yes, people used to have ridiculous religious explanations for things they could not yet understand. It seems, though, that people like yourself now, as a backlash of sorts, refuse to believe ANY of it, because of some wackos long ago. It's a very basic problem you have: you let a person here or there (or even a large group of them) taint the actual system of beliefs. You take the people in a group who pervert something, and bash the entire group of people for it, regardless of whether or not they do it.

I live a moral life because I respect my family and I respect life. In the grand scope of the universe it's completely meaningless but my life isn't meaningless to me.
But why shouldn't it be meaningless? Aren't you just being illogical?

I would never and I hope no one else would ever base their beliefs on what the overwhelming majority of people believed. As I pointed out before, the overwhelming number of people throughout history have believed a lot of really idiotic things and have eventually been proven completely wrong. So yes billions and billions and billions of people can be wrong and have been many MANY times. You're making the classic mistake of believing your presence on this Earth is THE one point in history when in fact your life on Earth is but a tiny tiny spec on the timeline of mankind. Things have not always been as they are now nor will they likely be in the future.
You know very well that I'm not saying that the majority is always right. If I were saying that, I wouldn't believe in an absolute right and wrong, now would I? I do believe, though, that when you're outnumbered something like a few billion to one (exaggeration, you get the idea), it's time to re-evaluate your beliefs. Big time. And, at the VERY least, it needs to be acknowledged that the belief these overwhelming majority of people hold is not ridiculous.

I am making no such "classic mistake." I know very well that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Believe it or not, I am (gasp!) a Christian who believes that knowledge and science are a wonderful thing that God wants us to use. He wants us to learn more about His world.

It was your subject. You're bringing up completely subjective hypotheticals. You're acting like a smooth stone is something complex that can't be made by the elements or even a river. It's akin to the comet analogy, we don't know what it is or how it got here but it's rather extraordinary and beyond our technology so it must be God.
No, it's not akin to that. You're avoiding the question: if you saw a stone like that, sitting on the moon, would you or would you not think it got there randomly? I'll answer for you (correct me if I'm wrong): no, you'd think some intelligent creature put it there, or sculpted it that way.

You are the people practicing the religion. Who the heck should I hold accountable for what is preached and taught? The Bible is the word of God no? The creationist argument begins and ends right there.
Hold The Bible accountable for what it says. Christians are not representative, technically, of Christian beliefs. They only try to be, and they fail often. If you have a problem with Christianity, it had better be with the The Bible itself, because it's ridiculous to try to hold Christianity accountable for the mistakes of it's followers. If you were to do that, no system of beliefs would be without "guilt."

That's the easy way out: blah blah blah, Salem, blah blah blah, Crusades, blah blah blah. I've heard it, literally, at least a dozen times. Do not go looking for perversions of The Faith. Look at The Bible itself. If you have problems with that, say so. If not, well, your gripes with specific Christians does nothing to legitimately attack Christianity...it only attacks those individuals.



Timing's Avatar
Registered User
Originally posted by spudracer


Yeah...we would die. Man can not survive in a 1,000 year ice age. Just can't do it.

Back in the medieval times, we weren't controlling our enviroment. Back in the old west, we weren't controlling our enviroment. Back in the early American time, 1776, etc., no control in enviroment.

We've only controlled our enviroment in the 1900's through industries and what not. We're pretty much killing the planet through all of this. There's your control of the enviroment.

Geez... lol

When I say environment I don't mean simply weather. If you want to talk Midieval times how about castles, shelter, knives, medicine, horses for transportation, farming, aqueducts, etc.

Name me one animal other than man that has no natural predator, that can farm, use weapons to hunt, can build shelters in place, can cure illnesses through medication, can sterilize, use fire, etc.

There's your control of environment indeed.



Timing's Avatar
Registered User
Originally posted by TWTCommish
Of course I can't prove it. Did I said I could? If I had proof, you'd believe it, too. Fact of the matter there's almost nothing resembling proof no matter what your belief is. What is your belief? The Big Bang? No proof. We don't have proof anymore -- so we go by evidence, and common sense, and to me (and to anyone reasonable, IMO), complexity at this level implies intelligence.

This is not true. We know the universe is expanding and can thus measure the age of it and therefore know when it began. We know what composes stars and how they're born and therefore know how a solar system forms. We know the things necessary for appearance of life. We know a hell of a lot of things about the universe that you would never know if it were not for science. There is more to substantiate the Big Bang than there is to substantiate creation. That's why Big Bang is a scientific theory and creation is not. You're not going by evidence because if you were you'd not believe in creation. Your insistence on complexity involving intelligence has no bearing on the existence of God or creation. Intelligence or complexity beyond our current understanding is not something that defaults to God. That's a medieval caveman belief for explaining things.

Aren't you reading what I'm typing? An absolute right and wrong isn't contingent on what people think. That's what makes it ABSOLUTE! That's the whole point, man: I believe in a right and wrong that is right, or wrong, REGARDLESS of the majority's opinion. Perhaps you think rape and murder of the innocent is right if the majority of people are okay with it, but I don't. I think it's wrong, PERIOD.

WTF are you talking about? You can't prove right and wrong and thus it is COMPLETELY contingent on what people believe. Just because you believe it's absolute doesn't make it so. Evidence makes it so. There is no such thing in the universe as something right or wrong PERIOD that can't be measured. It's a matter of your opinion, not a matter of verifiable fact. Stop living in fantasy land.


Yes, people used to have ridiculous religious explanations for things they could not yet understand. It seems, though, that people like yourself now, as a backlash of sorts, refuse to believe ANY of it, because of some wackos long ago. It's a very basic problem you have: you let a person here or there (or even a large group of them) taint the actual system of beliefs. You take the people in a group who pervert something, and bash the entire group of people for it, regardless of whether or not they do it.

Nah I don't taint people in a group I taint your entire belief system of a god. Your entire belief system is based on a book. That's it! You could no more prove the existence of God now than could be done 1,000 years ago. I find your belief in creation just as wacko as many past beliefs that have been proven wrong. You hold yourself higher than those before you but you're exactly the same and will be proven wrong exactly the same way, through science. What makes your belief in creation any more valid than the previous beliefs of your religious bretheren? Nothing!

But why shouldn't it be meaningless? Aren't you just being illogical?

In the scope of life it is meaningless. In the scope of my life, it isn't.

You know very well that I'm not saying that the majority is always right. If I were saying that, I wouldn't believe in an absolute right and wrong, now would I? I do believe, though, that when you're outnumbered something like a few billion to one (exaggeration, you get the idea), it's time to re-evaluate your beliefs. Big time. And, at the VERY least, it needs to be acknowledged that the belief these overwhelming majority of people hold is not ridiculous.

Nah, I reject that. It's a belief based on faith, on socialization, on the power of the church, etc. It's not a belief based on anything that can be measured or recorded or scientifically observed. It's opinion, nothing more.

I am making no such "classic mistake." I know very well that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Believe it or not, I am (gasp!) a Christian who believes that knowledge and science are a wonderful thing that God wants us to use. He wants us to learn more about His world.

Yes you are, you believe that your beliefs are more valid than those who came before you who also couldn't substantiate their beliefs. In a thousand years people may laugh at what you believe just like you may laugh at what people once believed.

No, it's not akin to that. You're avoiding the question: if you saw a stone like that, sitting on the moon, would you or would you not think it got there randomly? I'll answer for you (correct me if I'm wrong): no, you'd think some intelligent creature put it there, or sculpted it that way.

Who cares? It's completely irrelevant to the question of creation.

Hold The Bible accountable for what it says. Christians are not representative, technically, of Christian beliefs. They only try to be, and they fail often. If you have a problem with Christianity, it had better be with the The Bible itself, because it's ridiculous to try to hold Christianity accountable for the mistakes of it's followers. If you were to do that, no system of beliefs would be without "guilt."

The Bible says in the beginning the earth was created and two days later the sun, moon, and stars were created. That's the first damn page of the Bible and already a HUGE error. It's not ridiculous to hold Christianity accountable because that's what people derive their inspiration from. It would be like killing Hitler and letting the SS walk out the door with their guns. And you sure want to quote Darwin a lot without recognizing he's only one of millions of scientists who believe in evolution.

That's the easy way out: blah blah blah, Salem, blah blah blah, Crusades, blah blah blah. I've heard it, literally, at least a dozen times. Do not go looking for perversions of The Faith. Look at The Bible itself. If you have problems with that, say so. If not, well, your gripes with specific Christians does nothing to legitimately attack Christianity...it only attacks those individuals.

Blah blah blah? The practice of your religion and the church is responsible for the murder and oppression of thousands upon thousands of innocent people and all you've got is blah blah blah? That's very insightful of you. BTW who are you to judge what is perverse and what isn't? Here you go again judging history by your definitions. The Crusades might have been perverse to you but it seemed to be pretty popular back in the day.



This is not true. We know the universe is expanding and can thus measure the age of it and therefore know when it began. We know what composes stars and how they're born and therefore know how a solar system forms. We know the things necessary for appearance of life. We know a hell of a lot of things about the universe that you would never know if it were not for science. There is more to substantiate the Big Bang than there is to substantiate creation. That's why Big Bang is a scientific theory and creation is not. You're not going by evidence because if you were you'd not believe in creation. Your insistence on complexity involving intelligence has no bearing on the existence of God or creation. Intelligence or complexity beyond our current understanding is not something that defaults to God. That's a medieval caveman belief for explaining things.
That makes no sense. We see the universe expanding, and therefore we just ASSUME that it's rate of growth is completely constant? And what if we were created? The universe expanding wouldn't contradict that.

You also, I notice, speak of science as if it were not only in conflict with religion (it's not...plenty of scientists believe in God), but as if it were something more than human. "Science" is just humans getting together and messing with stuff in an attempt to figure things out. It's a lot of trial and error. So when you say "you wouldn't know this without science," it's a waste of everyone's time. I don't owe anything to science, and it's not my enemy, but you act as if it is.

WTF are you talking about? You can't prove right and wrong and thus it is COMPLETELY contingent on what people believe. Just because you believe it's absolute doesn't make it so. Evidence makes it so. There is no such thing in the universe as something right or wrong PERIOD that can't be measured. It's a matter of your opinion, not a matter of verifiable fact. Stop living in fantasy land.
Can't you read? I'm telling you I believe some things are absolutely, positively wrong. Maybe YOU believe that the rape and murder of the innocent is only wrong via opinion and majority, but I don't. I think it's wrong, period. That's WTF I'm talking about. Need me to repeat it again? You drone on and on about proof. For the 20th time: if you wait for proof to believe anything, you won't be believing in much. Sometimes you need to take the evidence make the best decision you can.

Nah I don't taint people in a group I taint your entire belief system of a god. Your entire belief system is based on a book. That's it! You could no more prove the existence of God now than could be done 1,000 years ago. I find your belief in creation just as wacko as many past beliefs that have been proven wrong. You hold yourself higher than those before you but you're exactly the same and will be proven wrong exactly the same way, through science. What makes your belief in creation any more valid than the previous beliefs of your religious bretheren? Nothing!
It's valid because it's right. Valid to you, someone who doesn't believe? Yep, nothing. Matter of opinion. Anything else really pointless and obvious you want to state?

Yeah, lots of others have been, as you put it, proven wrong. Funny...the one I believe in hasn't. I wonder if that means something.

In the scope of life it is meaningless. In the scope of my life, it isn't.
That makes no sense. There is no good reason for you to give a crap about what other people think, or about being moral, if there is no God. Why would you? To satisfy a chemical urge that you know is only there to try to, according to you, help us evolve and live longer as a species? Makes no sense.

What you fail to grasp is that, without any kind of God, EVERYTHING is meaningless. Everything. There is no ultimate meaning. There is nothing wrong. Nothing wrong. No point to it all. Nothing more than chemicals and cells...emotions are a deception. Nothing matters but survival, without a Creator to set the rules, so to speak. Maybe you believe all that. I honestly feel sorry for you if you do.

Nah, I reject that. It's a belief based on faith, on socialization, on the power of the church, etc. It's not a belief based on anything that can be measured or recorded or scientifically observed. It's opinion, nothing more.
Virtually everything is opinion. Like I said, if you're waiting around for concrete proof, well, then you're just not being reasonable. I would argue, though, that there's more than faith. I don't see how you could chalk up this remarkable level of complexity to anything other than precise planning.

Yes you are, you believe that your beliefs are more valid than those who came before you who also couldn't substantiate their beliefs. In a thousand years people may laugh at what you believe just like you may laugh at what people once believed.
Sounds an awful lot like you. You have no real proof, and you believe your beliefs are more valid than the people who came before you. In a thousand years people may laught at what you believe, as well. What's that, 3 "duh" comments in one post now?

Who cares? It's completely irrelevant to the question of creation.
No it's not. Are you paying attention at all? It completely matters. If you concede that such a stone implies intelligence because of it's preciseness, why would this world, infinitely more precise, not imply the same thing? It's an undeniable chain of logic. The difference between the two is that one has any bias for or against religion removed.

The Bible says in the beginning the earth was created and two days later the sun, moon, and stars were created. That's the first damn page of the Bible and already a HUGE error. It's not ridiculous to hold Christianity accountable because that's what people derive their inspiration from. It would be like killing Hitler and letting the SS walk out the door with their guns. And you sure want to quote Darwin a lot without recognizing he's only one of millions of scientists who believe in evolution.
How is that a huge error?

Yes, it IS ridiculous to hold it accountable. People kill other people in God's name. The Bible doesn't support these horrors throughout history the way you may think. If I kill someone in YOUR name, does it make sense to hold YOU and what you say accountable? No, it just means that I'm whacked out.

Of course he's one of millions. And yeah, I want to quote him. I did. Though I didn't quote him "a lot," I quoted him once. It's funny...because modern-day atheism and evolutionism was pioneered by a few men with severe mental and personal problems. I find that interesting. They all had issues with their fathers, too.

Blah blah blah? The practice of your religion and the church is responsible for the murder and oppression of thousands upon thousands of innocent people and all you've got is blah blah blah? That's very insightful of you. BTW who are you to judge what is perverse and what isn't? Here you go again judging history by your definitions. The Crusades might have been perverse to you but it seemed to be pretty popular back in the day.
You're really not paying attention now. Your knee-jerk responses are becoming obvious. My religion is not responsible for those things -- self-righteous idiots are. If you want to judge what is a perverse interpretation of The Bible, uh, READ THE BIBLE. Most of it is as plain as day, but people create little exceptions in their head, it seems.

Yeah, blah blah blah. The blah blah blah part refers to people who stupidly (yes, stupidly) hold The Bible and what it teaches somehow accountable for how people misinterpret it. If a Christian does something, it doesn't make sense to blame The Bible if The Bible says it's a bad thing. That's insane.



Timing's Avatar
Registered User
Originally posted by TWTCommish
That makes no sense. We see the universe expanding, and therefore we just ASSUME that it's rate of growth is completely constant? And what if we were created? The universe expanding wouldn't contradict that.

The universe's age is calculated using the expansion rate from precise distance measurements, and the calculated age is refined based on whether the universe appears to be accelerating or decelerating, given the amount of matter observed in space. A rapid expansion rate indicates the universe did not require as much time to reach its present size, and so it is younger than if it were expanding more slowly.

In short, Cepheid stars are of a standard brightness. Think of them as light bulbs of identical wattage. Distance is the only factor that changes the relative brightness of a Cepheid star -- the further away from Earth it is, the dimmer it appears.

The Hubble Team studied almost 800 Cepheid stars, in 18 galaxies, as far away as 65 million light years. In this manner, the team used the stars to calibrate a number of different distance measuring techniques that they then put to work measuring how fast galaxies are speeding away from each other.

Astronomers with the Key Project Team said they've calculated the expansion rate to within 10 percent accuracy. In the end, they came up with a value of 70 kilometers per second per megaparsec (a megaparsec is 3.26 million light years -- and a light year is about 5.9 trillion miles). This means that a galaxy appears to be moving 160,000 mph faster for every 3.3 light-years away from Earth. And that means the Universe was born 12 billion years ago.


You also, I notice, speak of science as if it were not only in conflict with religion (it's not...plenty of scientists believe in God), but as if it were something more than human. "Science" is just humans getting together and messing with stuff in an attempt to figure things out. It's a lot of trial and error. So when you say "you wouldn't know this without science," it's a waste of everyone's time. I don't owe anything to science, and it's not my enemy, but you act as if it is.

It's the enemy of what your religion preaches.

Can't you read? I'm telling you I believe some things are absolutely, positively wrong. Maybe YOU believe that the rape and murder of the innocent is only wrong via opinion and majority, but I don't. I think it's wrong, period. That's WTF I'm talking about. Need me to repeat it again? You drone on and on about proof. For the 20th time: if you wait for proof to believe anything, you won't be believing in much. Sometimes you need to take the evidence make the best decision you can.

I don't care what you believe is right and wrong. I believe turkey sucks so does that make it absolute that turkey sucks? Of course not, that's friggin ridiculous. Something absolute is by definition not doubted or questioned. You can't claim something is absolute just because you think it is. If you believe it's absolute then it's absolute for YOU, it sure as hell isn't for me.


It's valid because it's right. Valid to you, someone who doesn't believe? Yep, nothing. Matter of opinion. Anything else really pointless and obvious you want to state?

Yeah, lots of others have been, as you put it, proven wrong. Funny...the one I believe in hasn't. I wonder if that means something.


You can't get past page one. Your beliefs are based on the completely subjective question of what is right. Who cares what you think is right? I only care what you can substantiate. If you're going to claim things then substantiate them without saying I just think it's right.

The one you believe in will be just like what others believed. It's only a matter of time.

That makes no sense. There is no good reason for you to give a crap about what other people think, or about being moral, if there is no God. Why would you? To satisfy a chemical urge that you know is only there to try to, according to you, help us evolve and live longer as a species? Makes no sense.

What I feel doesn't have to make sense. I'm a human being and as a result am totally free to have illogical opinions and feelings. Wanting to live however is a natural urge. You never see a tiger just lay down and let the other tiger kill him do you? Of course not, every living thing has a natural instinct to live and it has nothing to do with God. Animals have no concept of God yet still want to live and be liked and be loved.

What you fail to grasp is that, without any kind of God, EVERYTHING is meaningless. Everything. There is no ultimate meaning. There is nothing wrong. Nothing wrong. No point to it all. Nothing more than chemicals and cells...emotions are a deception. Nothing matters but survival, without a Creator to set the rules, so to speak. Maybe you believe all that. I honestly feel sorry for you if you do.

That's preposterous. Simply preposterous. There you go again making blanket generalizations based on your belief in God. The American Indian was living just fine when Christians showed up and tried to push their God upon them.

Virtually everything is opinion. Like I said, if you're waiting around for concrete proof, well, then you're just not being reasonable. I would argue, though, that there's more than faith. I don't see how you could chalk up this remarkable level of complexity to anything other than precise planning.

I'm not being reasonable? You're pushing your beliefs on the world and I'm being unreasonable because I don't believe in mythic gods and supernatural beings. Whatever...

Sounds an awful lot like you. You have no real proof, and you believe your beliefs are more valid than the people who came before you. In a thousand years people may laught at what you believe, as well. What's that, 3 "duh" comments in one post now?

You have a "duh" belief. I have no real proof LOL, sure pal, yet there are thousands upon thousands of astrophysicists working on the issue. I guess there are some people pretty confident if they're spending billions of dollars in research. For people like you the only proof would be a Polaroid of the Big Bang and even then you'd be trying to bash the authenticity of it just like creationists have bashed the authenticity of many signifanct scientific finding throughout history. I'll take my chances with what will be proven over the next 1,000 years while your religious beliefs by defintion will remain constant in the belief of creation. I'll take that bet any day.

No it's not. Are you paying attention at all? It completely matters. If you concede that such a stone implies intelligence because of it's preciseness, why would this world, infinitely more precise, not imply the same thing? It's an undeniable chain of logic. The difference between the two is that one has any bias for or against religion removed.

Honestly this is just so lame that it's a waste of my time. It so undeniable that it is denied completely by science. Wow... pretty undeniable.

How is that a huge error?

Are you serious? The Earth being created 2 days before the moon, sun, and stars? How could the Earth have been created before the Sun if the Sun is older than the Earth? Same thing with the stars.[/b]

Of course he's one of millions. And yeah, I want to quote him. I did. Though I didn't quote him "a lot," I quoted him once. It's funny...because modern-day atheism and evolutionism was pioneered by a few men with severe mental and personal problems. I find that interesting. They all had issues with their fathers, too.

LMAO Let's slander the scientists now... that's great. LOL

This is getting boring so let's just move on to the Bible why don't we.


1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.



I could probably spend about 50 years pointing out the inconsistencies in here but let's start in the beginning and we'll just skip that whole stars thing I pointed out already.

In 1.3 God said let there be light, and there was light.

In 1.5 God said the light was day and the dark was night, the evening and morning were the first day.

Then here on 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night.


Now explain that one to me. Aside from it being impossible for the Earth to be older than the Sun and stars, how can there be night and day without the Sun? How can there be grass and fruit trees and seeds and herbs without the friggin Sun?


Let me also say I don't hate Christians or any other people who practice religion. I totally respect people like Toose who are simply content to practice their beliefs and live a good life. It's when the religious force themselves upon others that I have a problem with it. If you want to believe creation, fine, but if you want to claim it as fact then you gotta bring the goods.