SPOILER THREAD: Discuss "Star Wars: The Force Awakens"

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SC, but Kylo isn't the face of the first order (which for me was much more intimidating than the empire ever was). Hux is. Hux is the one making the speeches, Hux is the general. In A New Hope, Vader was just some guy that did the emperor's dirty work and was imposing and scary looking because of his costume design and being the only space wizard in the galaxy, but Grand Moff Tarkin was really the guy calling the shots. He held authority not because he outranked people or was important in the military chain of command. He had the emperor backing him and if anyone said no to his orders he killed them. I would imagine the general public in A New Hope wasn't even aware of Darth Vader, they just new the Empire was scary and to not mess with them and everything would be fine. Only Rebel forces and government officials would have been aware of his existence and his power. It wasn't until Empire than much of what we remember of Vader really came to fruition and he really became the all-time great villain we all know now. Perhaps Ren will get his chance to shine and become a truly powerful villain in 8 along with already being a fascinating character in my opinion.

Kylo functions the same way Vader did, Snoke's personal weapon (and apprentice). He does all the same things for the First Order that Vader does. Except he's not Vader, he's pretending to be. He's posturing. He's a fraud. But who's gonna tell him no, he's the only space wizard in the galaxy and nobody challenges him because they're afraid that he'll kill them. His tantrums, as childish as they may be, a still a show of incredible force (haha, puns) to a non force user in the First Order military, and strike fear in the same way that Vader's force chokes did. However, when Rey appears and challenges him finally and he fails, that shows his vulnerability not just to us the audience but really strikes that point home to himself (aside from the fact that he was mortally wounded in the climactic battle by Chewie). He's untrained. He's never had to train because he was most powerful by default. He's Vader but about 20 years younger, weaker, and not as ready for the challenges he faces. Yet.

I expect we'll see his progression in the next film as he trains with Snoke into a cold calculated badass villain by the end of 8 where he will score some major bad guy points and f*ck up the resistance and our heroes big time, possibly even capturing Luke, or something along those lines, and then by the end of the trilogy he will either be redeemed or killed or both. I'm interested to see his character grow. He's not fully realized yet. None of the new characters are (except Maz and maybe Phasma because she's kinda lame but yay chrome!).

I agree that Kylo Ren is probably one of the 'worse' lead villains (i'd say Dooku is the worst and I don't count Grevious as a lead villain, but Maul was more intimidating and Vader is iconic for obvious reasons) in the series in terms of power and effectiveness thus far, but he is also the youngest and we've seen the least out of him as we have just one movie to go off of. And as far as character development goes, he's the most compelling character we've gotten out of a main antagonist in any of the films yet, in spite of his obvious shortcomings. Though I think the shortcomings add to his character, not detract from it. He may be Darth Tantrum, but it's those moments of lost composure and real conflict and struggle for him, of failure, that make the character relatable, and make you empathize with him, even if you don't condone his decisions, which for me make a compelling villain.

They may have taken a lot of inspiration from the original trilogy with this film, but I'm glad that they changed up the formula for the villain and gave us a character, instead of just a big "creature in a mask" as Rey put it. Also I think since they're going with the original trilogy has become myth to a majority of the universe, it makes sense that he's trying to emulate the myth of Vader and we're seeing him fail at doing so. It fits tonally with what their trying to do with the films mythos relative to the original trilogy.



SC, but Kylo isn't the face of the first order (which for me was much more intimidating than the empire ever was). Hux is. Hux is the one making the speeches, Hux is the general. In A New Hope, Vader was just some guy that did the emperor's dirty work and was imposing and scary looking because of his costume design and being the only space wizard in the galaxy, but Grand Moff Tarkin was really the guy calling the shots. He held authority not because he outranked people or was important in the military chain of command. He had the emperor backing him and if anyone said no to his orders he killed them. I would imagine the general public in A New Hope wasn't even aware of Darth Vader, they just new the Empire was scary and to not mess with them and everything would be fine. Only Rebel forces and government officials would have been aware of his existence and his power. It wasn't until Empire than much of what we remember of Vader really came to fruition and he really became the all-time great villain we all know now. Perhaps Ren will get his chance to shine and become a truly powerful villain in 8 along with already being a fascinating character in my opinion.
I really don't think it matters what PEOPLE WE DON'T SEE IN THE MOVIES see. We see -- and we all saw -- Darth Vader and Kylo Ren AS THE MAIN ANTAGONIST OF THE SERIES.

That's what matters. Not Hux or any of those other people. What WE see. Darth Vader is ALWAYS what comes to mind to the majority of people when they think of the Star Wars villain. Kylo Ren will be the same thing.

Kylo functions the same way Vader did, Snoke's personal weapon (and apprentice). He does all the same things for the First Order that Vader does. Except he's not Vader, he's pretending to be. He's posturing. He's a fraud. But who's gonna tell him no, he's the only space wizard in the galaxy and nobody challenges him because they're afraid that he'll kill them. His tantrums, as childish as they may be, a still a show of incredible force (haha, puns) to a non force user in the First Order military, and strike fear in the same way that Vader's force chokes did. However, when Rey appears and challenges him finally and he fails, that shows his vulnerability not just to us the audience but really strikes that point home to himself (aside from the fact that he was mortally wounded in the climactic battle by Chewie). He's untrained. He's never had to train because he was most powerful by default. He's Vader but about 20 years younger, weaker, and not as ready for the challenges he faces. Yet.

I expect we'll see his progression in the next film as he trains with Snoke into a cold calculated badass villain by the end of 8 where he will score some major bad guy points and f*ck up the resistance and our heroes big time, possibly even capturing Luke, or something along those lines, and then by the end of the trilogy he will either be redeemed or killed or both. I'm interested to see his character grow. He's not fully realized yet. None of the new characters are (except Maz and maybe Phasma because she's kinda lame but yay chrome!).

I agree that Kylo Ren is probably one of the 'worse' lead villains (i'd say Dooku is the worst and I don't count Grevious as a lead villain, but Maul was more intimidating and Vader is iconic for obvious reasons) in the series in terms of power and effectiveness thus far, but he is also the youngest and we've seen the least out of him as we have just one movie to go off of. And as far as character development goes, he's the most compelling character we've gotten out of a main antagonist in any of the films yet, in spite of his obvious shortcomings.
I have to stop here at that last sentence -- sorry -- there is no way Kylo Ren is more compelling than Darth Vader, even after just one movie. No way.

They may have taken a lot of inspiration from the original trilogy with this film, but I'm glad that they changed up the formula for the villain and gave us a character, instead of just a big "creature in a mask" as Rey put it.
Ehhhh. Frankly I prefer the creature in the mask. People fell in love with Darth Vader when he was just a creature in the mask.

Seriously -- just because you're a character who happens to show a lot of weaknesses DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER CHARACTER. I am so against that idea -- that vulnerability, softness, and "depth" through showing all of your flaws -- makes you better. This is simply labeling wimps as being better just because they're wimps. It's no different than saying, "Hi, I'm a nerd and I'm better than you because of it!" "HI! I'm transgender! And I'm better than you because of it!" Frankly -- that's what's going on here. You think showing shortcomings equals a better character. That's simply not true.



... showing shortcomings equals a better character. That's simply not true.
Thank you, SC ....!!!

Finally, someone other, other than me, is saying that. However this perception started, I'm kind of surprised at its persistence, actually. Maybe it's just easier to write for - Hollywood has never wanted to make more work for itself in the script department. It will bust its stones to put actors in elaborate costumes, put sets on elaborate gimbals, and produce elaborate effects ... but when it comes time for the script, they're desperate to avoid putting any real effort into it.

Like the dialogue between Han & Leia in The Force Awakens ... did George Lucas write those lines? It made Anakin's lecture to Padme about sand sound downright Shakespearian.



Seriously -- just because you're a character who happens to show a lot of weaknesses DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER CHARACTER..
Conversely, being strong doesn't make you a great character. It's not just the flaws that make him great. Ren's flaws bring him to a level of understanding. We can see where he's coming from, why he is doing evil things, what he wants to accomplish.

Ronan from Guardians of the Galaxy was strong and boring as sh*t.

Also Ren isn't all that weak, he's just not as powerful as he's trying to make it seem he is. He's not as strong as Vader but he's still an evil space wizard who can freeze laser blasts in mid air and shows on multiple occasions that for most people he's a force (hah, puns) to be reckoned with in spite of being not completely trained. The only person who can even match him is Rey who is clearly immensely imbued with the force and she only holds up to him when he's emotionally unstable (he just killed his dad) and mortally wounded (he took chewies crossbow shot right in the gut and that thing took out like 5 stormtroopers in one shot just by hitting the general vicinity of them). He's no small potatoes. Once fully trained he might well be as powerful as Vader, we don't yet know. Give him two more movies we'll see where he's at. He's 20 years behind Vader in his training, if not more than that, and he's never been even remotely challenged until Rey. That doesn't mean he's lame though.

He's just not Vader. He was never supposed to be, not in this movie. So they instead chose to give him human qualities and make him compelling because he has goals and motivations and emotions, and yes, flaws (he's young immature and untrained, those flaws will likely diminish over time as he trains and ages and overcomes his shortcomings, it's called a character arc, he improves as he goes on), y'know, things compelling characters are supposed to have? Things that are taught in every screenwriting course ever on day one? Ren is more than a capable threat, but he's imperfect and has real character development to him. This is different than the approach they went with Vader. It worked for me. Ren is one of my favorite parts of the movie because while I don't condone what he does, I understand why he does it. That's why he's a compelling character. That's why he's the most compelling and interesting villain (not the best, most interesting, totally different things) in the series, because he's more a person than any of the other villains.



anyway we could probably go back and forth on this forever and neither of us would budge on our stances, so I respectfully disagree and you're entitled to your opinion, let's move on to something else.



All I know is Rey is a Skywalker. In one way or another. Given the fact that Luke's saber called to her and she has 'the force'. Yes she could be Luke's daughter due to the situation at hand. (No pun intended) Or she could be Rey's brother and Han and Leia's daughter. Given the fact that both Luke and Leia both have the force.

Read my review here.



Questions (and possible answers) for The Force Awakens via Slash Film
  • If The Rebellion Won At The End Of Return Of The Jedi, Why Isn’t The War Over?
  • Is The Resistance Part Of The New Republic?
  • What Has Everyone Been Up To For The Last 34 Years?
  • How Did The Lightsaber Get In Maz’s Castle?
  • What Happened To The Shot In Teaser Trailer #2 Of Maz Handing General Leia The Lightsaber?
  • Who Was Max Von Sydow’s Character? Why Did He Have The Map?
  • How Does Rey Know How To Use Force Powers?
  • How Do Rey and Finn Know How To Fight With A Lightsaber?
  • Is Rey a Skywalker?
  • Or Is Rey A Kenobi?
  • What If Rey’s Parents Were No One We Even Know?
  • What Happens In Rey’s Vision?
  • Who Was Rey Raised By?
  • Who Are Finn’s Parents? How Did He Join The First Order?
  • Why Does R2-D2 Suddenly Wake Up? Why Did He Have The Map?
  • Why Did Kylo Ren Turn To The Dark Side?
  • Who Are The Knights Of Ren?
  • Who Is Supreme Leader Snoke? Is He A Giant?
  • Is Supreme Leader Snoke Actually Darth Plagueis?
  • Why Didn’t Snoke Want To Find Luke Skywalker?
  • Why Didn’t Leia Train As a Jedi?
  • How Did Kylo Get Darth Vader’s Mask?
  • Why Was Finn Unable To Kill?
  • Why Did Luke Skywalker Disappear? Has He Turned To The Dark Side Of The Force?
  • What Happened To The Clone Army? Could The Clones Return?
  • Did Phasma Survive The Destruction of Starkiller Base?
  • Did Hux and Kylo Ran Survive The Destruction of Starkiller Base?
  • How Is It That Rey Understands BB-8 & Chewbacca’s Languages?
  • Who and Where Are Sarco Plank and Constable Zuvio?



All I know is Rey is a Skywalker. In one way or another. Given the fact that Luke's saber called to her and she has 'the force'. Yes she could be Luke's daughter due to the situation at hand. (No pun intended) Or she could be Rey's brother and Han and Leia's daughter. Given the fact that both Luke and Leia both have the force.
I would actually rather have Rey and Kylo Ren be siblings than cousins.

And you know what? Despite the fact that it didn't seem like they are siblings to me in The Force Awakens.... what if that's on purpose? What if it's a nod to the original trilogy? I mean, in Star Wars, people didn't think Luke and Leia were siblings, right? And wasn't that something that was thought up AFTER Star Wars was made? It might be another homage. Suddenly, she IS Han and Leia's daughter.

HOWEVER -- however -- though I'd rather Rey and Kylo were siblings, that's more BEFORE The Force Awakens came out. NOW, I think I'd much rather see Rey be Luke's daughter. But if she's Han's daughter, that could be fine, too. She could avenge her father's murder.

HOWEVER -- Kylo Ren might kill Luke Skywalker in Episode VIII, and then if Luke is her father, she might avenge Luke/her father's murder in Episode IX.



I think Luke's kid fighting Leia's kid would be cool. Especially seeing as Han has been killed, and the possibility that he could kill Luke.
It'd be a good twist... Rey has reason to batter Kylo... and it's the Skywalker family feud going on too.



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What I'm most curious about in this movie... and what might actually seem the most off about everything.... and what might be my biggest criticism.....

How the Hell did sh*t get so bad between Return of the Jedi and [i]The Force Awakens?!
I thought this at first, but then I thought about how quickly World War II happened after World War I and it makes more sense.



I really wish they would of added in a scene earlier in the movie where Han and Kylo cross paths first before meeting on that bridge. The Han death scene just felt flat to me because we didn't really care that much about the relationship between the two of them yet.
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I really wish they would of added in a scene earlier in the movie where Han and Kylo cross paths first before meeting on that bridge. The Han death scene just felt flat to me because we didn't really care that much about the relationship between the two of them yet.
It probably would have been better if Han was killed by Kylo in the next film, Episode VIII. Giving them time to cross paths maybe a couple of times before Kylo has had enough and terminates the relationship. It might have even been interesting to see Kylo try to seduce Han over to the Dark Side, the way Vader tried with Luke.

This movie here - The Force Awakens - was just trying too hard to be like A New Hope. They had to kill somebody, the way that movie killed Obi-Wan Kenobi at the end. That's it's biggest problem -- it's got too many similarities to the point where it doesn't feel 100% like its own thing.



Well here is some things I liked and some things I didn't like about the movie. After sitting and thinking about it some more here is my final list and final official rating of the movie.

Likes:

The Acting - Thank.....god. George Lucas' area has always been visual effects, he has stated before that he does not like working with actors. It really showed in the prequels since the actors were pretty much set pieces as well talking so wooden that you couldn't engage in any scenes or with any characters. JJ Abrams on the other hand, knows how to direct actors and has no problem working with them so obviously the acting was gonna be much better in this movie, but I wasn't expecting the acting to be really great, but it was, besides Carrie Fischer (Who hasn't acted in a while granted) there were not really any weak performances from any of the cast. Which I appreciated.

The Dialogue - There was no "Killing the younglings" bad dialogue in this film, there were a few that are questionable but they weren't as bad as a lot of the dialogue in the prequels.

The Humor - "Do you talk first, or do I talk first? It's kind of hard to tell with that mask..." Oh my god, I loved the humor in this movie, a massive amount of it comes from Kylo (who would of thought?), Han and Poe (Who is so charismatic it is great). So many funny scenes, and no poop jokes, which is what I like to see.

The new characters - The new characters fit into the story and the universe so well. Rey and Finn really impressed me. BB-8 was so adorable and funny (that scene where he gives the flame thumbs up to Finn was awesome). Poe was funny, charismatic, and a great pilot. So similar to Han that it kind of helps us take the blow of Han's death knowing we have another character to pick up the humor.

Kylo Ren (a.k.a. Ben Solo) - I have given him his own separate category because, wow. Many people were going into this movie going "oh he's just another Darth Vader" and he so isn't. Funny enough he is "trying" to be Darth Vader. I love the new villain, the Jedi are trying constantly to avoid the Dark Side of the force, but this guy is constantly trying to avoid the light side, and kills his father to try and convince himself that "Yes, I am a true member of the Dark Side" I love the whole aspect they are going for with him, that yes he is a "poser" who is trying to be something he is not, and I can't wait to see how it plays out in later films. The guy also has many scenes where he made me laugh. The scene where he finds out Rey escaped his interrogation room and he starts slashing everything and those two Stormtroopers walking towards the room see all the sparks and walk back the way they came, was really funny.

Supreme Leader Snoke - Andy Serkis plays Snoke brilliantly, although with all the practical effects they used in this film, it surprises me that they didn't go practical with Snoke as well. Maybe the character just calls for it idk, but granted Andy Serkis plays Snoke brilliantly and does not disappoint, he isn't even in much of the movie but every scene he is in he makes me crave to see more of him. Also remember Kylo's line "Supreme Leader Snoke is wise" and go watch Episode 3 again and watch the scene where Palpatine talks to Anakin about a certain ancient Sith Lord that could cheat death. You might be one step closer to figuring out who Snoke really is.

The similarities to Episode 4 - Rehashing isn't always a bad thing. Yes there are many similarities between this episode and A New Hope, but there are A LOT of differences as well. There were no Stormtrooper deserters in Episode 4. The Death Star only destroyed 1 planet at a time. Kylo Ren is not a rehashed Darth Vader. Supreme Leader Snoke is not a rehash of Emperor Palpatine (I am already liking Snoke better than Palpatine as a villain). The people calling Episode 7 a "rehash of Episode 4" are too busy looking at the limited amounts of similarities to A New Hope, and ignoring all the great amount of differences.

The use of special & practical effects and the sets - the practical effects are very well done in the movie. It is not all CGI like in the prequels, which really helps you immerse yourself in the world. And when they did use CGI it wasn't bad and didn't take me out of the movie, except the scenes with the Rathtar.


Dislikes:

The Build up to Han's death scene - The death scene was well done and well acted by both Harrison Ford and Adam Driver and who Kylo's character is made this scene make complete scene, but it was very flat. The emotional gravitas of Kylo killing his own father just wasn't there. Why? The death scene is literally the first time we have seen them interacting together on screen. Yes, Han saw Kylo on the planet kidnapping Rey, but they don't lock eyes or have any 30-40 second moment of fighting or conversing to show us their relationship. If they would of added in Han confronting Kylo on that planet first then have Kylo retreating with the First Order then the death scene may have had something more and could of been a very emotional moment in the movie and in the Star Wars franchise in general. I'm sure everybody was sad to see Han go, but I doubt many were drowning in their tears.

The Use of Captain Phasma - You have GWENDOLINE CHRISTIE, BRIENNE OF TARTH, playing Captain Phasma, yet all she does in the movie is gets captured by Finn and is forced to lower the shields to the Starkiller at gunpoint......that is literally the only important thing she does in the movie. She was so heavily marketed and everything and that is all she does. They are probably saving her good stuff for Episode 8 or 9 but still, they should of replaced the Stormtrooper that calls Finn a traitor with Phasma and showed how badass she was. She never had a moment in this movie to show how badass she was, so it felt like they wasted her character. Hopefully she does more in future movies.

The lack of information given to the audience - Yes they have novels that explain stuff that happened in the 30 years between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens, but I would of liked to see the movie go into a "little" more detail about what happened. I feel they could of easily added more exposition to the opening crawl to explain it a little more. Also I don't even know half the planets this movie took place on I swear they didn't tell us any of the planets or I didn't see the name pop up on the screen. The only one I heard in the movie or remember anyways was Jakku, the planet the movie starts on. Which is why earlier in my review when I talk about Han seeing Kylo kidnapping Rey, I don't mention what planet it it happened on because I seriously don't remember or know the planet's names.

The scenes on Han's freighter with the Rathtar - The CGI was not good for the Rathtar creatures. Also they completely wasted the guys from The Raid in this scene. I thought those guys would be playing the other members of the Knights of Ren, which would of been awesome, but alias what a waste.

Overall Final Official Rating:



OK, here's a question I'll pose --

When Kylo Ren kills his father, he says, "Thank you."

WHY?

The simple answer is too simple for me -- that because his father has been killed, it allows Kylo Minogue to fully embrace the dark side.

There's a lot of possibilities of things Kylo could have said -- or he could have even just stayed silent and said nothing.

They scripted him to say, "Thank you."

What else could it mean?

Could Kylo also be thanking Han Solo for giving him life?

Does it possibly hint that there's still good left inside Kylo? That he will ultimately change and turn against the dark side eventually?

He said, "thank you." It's a courteous remark. Is it a sign that he's still good, deep down?



OK, here's a question I'll pose --

When Kylo Ren kills his father, he says, "Thank you."

WHY?

The simple answer is too simple for me -- that because his father has been killed, it allows Kylo Minogue to fully embrace the dark side.

There's a lot of possibilities of things Kylo could have said -- or he could have even just stayed silent and said nothing.

They scripted him to say, "Thank you."

What else could it mean?

Could Kylo also be thanking Han Solo for giving him life?

Does it possibly hint that there's still good left inside Kylo? That he will ultimately change and turn against the dark side eventually?

He said, "thank you." It's a courteous remark. Is it a sign that he's still good, deep down?
He obviously still has good in him, he is essentially a poser, even after killing his father. It even shows some more when he "tries" to convince Rey to come under his wing. Trying to get his own apprentice so he "looks more like a Sith" and he isn't even fully trained yet. Again adds even more weight to the fact that he is a poser trying to be something he clearly is not. He even looked emotionally distraught after killing Han, and letting Chewy get that free shot on him with his crossbow.



OK, here's a question I'll pose --

When Kylo Ren kills his father, he says, "Thank you."

WHY?

The simple answer is too simple for me -- that because his father has been killed, it allows Kylo Minogue to fully embrace the dark side.

There's a lot of possibilities of things Kylo could have said -- or he could have even just stayed silent and said nothing.

They scripted him to say, "Thank you."

What else could it mean?

Could Kylo also be thanking Han Solo for giving him life?

Does it possibly hint that there's still good left inside Kylo? That he will ultimately change and turn against the dark side eventually?

He said, "thank you." It's a courteous remark. Is it a sign that he's still good, deep down?
From what I remember, he asked Han to help him do one last thing, and after killing him, saying thank you. Maybe I missed a bigger picture but I took it as a response to his action.



I feel like Kylo Ren became a lost opportunity. He has an awesome mask with a deep intimidating voice coming through it. But then... He took it off, only to reveal the least physically intimidating villain they could have used.

Driver wasn't a bad actor but it's hard to have somebody like him playing a role like that, especially when you want people to take it seriously.

Was I the only one that couldn't stop thinking that the entire movie?