Sex scenes (not “chaste”)

They don't do as much for character development as the scene where John reflects on how Holly is "the best thing that's ever happened" to him, but then again, they're not meant to, nor do they have to, any more than the moments where Ellis gets caught snorting coke, or when a drunk guy straight-up kisses John upon his arrival at the party, or when one of the SWAT team members accidentally pricks himself on a thorn while walking towards the building. They're there to make the movie feel more real, to make the story feel like it could be really happening (because they're the kind of things that would be happening in real life), which is why a lot of the MCU and other modern blockbusters lack that particular authenticity, because they're determined to sanitize their content as much as possible to appeal to the broadest audience possible, which tends to make their movies less unique and less interesting as a result in general.That aspect was somewhat dropped from his character as the series went on, a series that tends to have a sub-PG-13 level of sexuality to them, to the point that it went for twenty five straight movies without having a single sex scene, a fact that I think says a lot for itself.

Yes, yes, and yes. It does! And frankly it feels a bit ridiculous even needing to justify it. Agree on everything in your post.

I mean, I don’t intend to read/watch Jack Reacher, but are you sure that’s why? This is your reading, right? I would hardly ever posit that a male character having sex with a female character has much to do with “establishing manliness” (whatever that means - and we have those kick-ass choreographed fight sequences for that, no?). I think it’s much more to do with macho male characters’ stress relief after a long day fighting crime/whatever, so they want to get some endorphins going - to me that sounds fair enough?

And as the article Stu referenced suggests, the fact is that what remains of macho male characters now turn to gym/yoga/kale smoothies for that kind of “stress/pain relief”/recharging. That feels kind of disconcerting to me.

I suppose it also depends which women “Reacher”/protagonist is having sex with - I would say macho protagonists tend to sleep with particular women for reasons that often do also advance the plot - see, I don’t know, Indiana Jones & Marion Ravenwood off the top of my head. He courts her/sleeps with her (again) partly because he wants the medallion. Very relevant to plot, if you ask me. I can’t speak to Jack Reacher, but in Indiana Jones, most women Indy sleeps with “advance plot”, even Ilsa, though maybe not that random singer blonde (forget her name).

In Three Days of Condor, Joe sleeping with Kathy is literally propelling the plot as for a time being, until/unless she kicks him out of her flat, the “bad guys” (I’m being simplistic here, people!) won’t know where he’s hiding. Hence also relevant to plot. I would even posit that, the better the sex, the more she is likely to trust him, not kick him out, etc.

The sex scenes in Basic Instinct advance plot because that’s when the murders happen.

I could go on. I think these things are “plot”.

Wow, I didn’t/don’t read it that way at all. And I didn’t know people were “obsessed” with the story or, if I did, the awareness went right over my head.

I think it’s a terrific short story & her entire encounter with him (forgotten his name) is so true-to-life. I didn’t find it “disgusting” at all, but, rather, so awkward & ugly in its own way, but so illustrative of how, sometimes, sex is. It’s an excellent read IMO.

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Well, one of the circles I was in at the time that included many writers was obsessed with it for sure. They held talks they invited me to, including the one by KR. Now, as a piece of fiction, the story is fine. But I think its message is far from nuanced and quite off-putting. I attended the talk with a very good, very old friend from that same circle, who is also one of my favourite and best lovers. As it was being read out, he whispered in my ear, “Just imagine someone who hadn’t had sex yet judging what it’s like by that story.” And I see his point.

I never claim my interpretation of anything to be superior to anyone else’s, let alone being “the correct one”. But it has left a hell of an aftertaste for sure. Believable it may be in some measure, though what we mean by that is a separate discussion - but I found many bits of it very off-putting. If the sex is so awful, why doesn’t Margo get up and leave? I’ve certainly done that in my life (only once or twice when I was around her age, but what’s wrong with that? “Please stop, I want to LEAVE NOW?”). He wasn’t made to seem threatening so I doubt she was “scared”. In case this ain’t crystal clear, I did not dig the story, which is perfectly fine & happens - but my entire experience around it & the academic/critical discussions/seminar surrounding it gave me a very clear impression that people were trying to glorify bad sex. Why? What’s wrong with good sex? You can’t believe people have it (lots of it)? The fact she asked the audience in a forceful way about their/our “bad sex” stories felt extremely weird to me. To be clear, she was trying to convince perfect strangers that the sex they rated as good was in fact bad. To me that is plain crazy. Those who “bravely” owned up to never having had bad sex were semi-brainwashed into admitting they must have had, cult-style. Does that sound healthy? To my mind, that extremely one-sided perspective permeated the story too.

On “believable”: this is exactly what that talk descended into! Some attendees and I tried to suggest that great, mind-blowing sex with multiple orgasms also does happen and hence is realistic/believable! She looked shocked, so much so that to this day, I kind of suspect she’s never had good sex…?

Why do some movies like Shortbus have unsimulated sex? Are they just trying to be risque or controversial to get buzz?

Margo didn’t leave because “But the thought of what it would take to stop what she had set in motion was overwhelming; it would require an amount of tact and gentleness that she felt was impossible to summon.” Been there, done that. Or, rather, not done that. I always found it easier just to get it over with & never see the man again. Many men are very bad in bed. That’s my experience. One never knows what one is going to get.

Maybe the author has never had “good sex”. Perhaps this is not her fault. Some women never orgasm. Some women never orgasm with a man. If you have multiple orgasms (I never have) well, good for you! I much prefer a story like this rather than one where a couple meets cute & has mind-blowing sex on their first date accompanied by simultaneous orgasms.

I found the story very believable. Uncomfortably so as I’ve been there, done that.

This is one helluva thread. 😎

I hope you’re serious (rather than this being irony). I’m enjoying it for sure, no offence meant to anyone.

I agree that this sounds like a ****ty story.

But can there not be a middle ground?! Someone has liked someone for some time, they never flirted because x, but when they get together by chance, the buildup of lust leads to great sex - what’s wrong with that? Palahniuk’s Choke is excellent at portraying great sex (barring Gwen) happening between strangers spontaneously because they attend the same therapy group - most of these scenes I find very hot and perfectly believable, and the sex is mostly enjoyed by all parties (barring the Gwen bit). You can have “believable” sex scenes where someone experiences a mishap but people continue foreplay and eventually everything is fine. Sadie (2018) has a great scene where the mother says she “didn’t wax” (she is played by Melanie Lynskey so her body is not Victoria’s Secret standard), her partner laughs at that, yet we are shown they have great, real, passionate and pleasurable sex and strike up a relationship. No unrealistic Hollywood bodies here, but it is not a negative portrayal!

And I am not judging anyone irl (Margo is after all a fictional character). I am not saying anything is anyone’s fault. In many ways, I do appreciate the path-of-least-resistance way of life, been there, done that, as you say. Just not in bed.

It always freaks me out how these things get personal. I have seen a lot of “bad” things in my life, but, alas, sex has always been good… I had an incredibly debilitating breathing condition throughout my youth and childhood. I came into official “adulthood” just as I was set free from that via surgery. That kind of start to life gives a whole new meaning to “self-care”. I was brought up to ask for what I wanted and not swallow any more discomfort. I never settled for anything in sex. I chose my first lovers very carefully (still do & have a low body count). If I didn’t like anything at all, I would cut it off and go home, just like that. As I said, I’ve only left once or twice once it was already underway, but I had left beforehand many times if I felt I no longer liked the guy now that sex was imminent. Gets coat, adios. I just couldn’t give my body anything less than great after what it had survived.

In terms Hollywood’s “realistic/unrealistic” acrobatics etc, I had done decades of ballet & yoga and whatnot, even before my surgery, I am extremely flexible and do pole dancing now, so I did actually perform Hollywood-worthy acrobatic stunts with my first boyfriend and many others… It doesn’t make that much of a difference and a sex swing doesn’t lead to better quality of sex per se, but when I read in the cliches thread about sex against the wall being “unrealistic”, I am bewildered.

I am quite introverted, likely permanently emotionally damaged and a misanthrope and I don’t trust people, but when it comes to sex, I have never faked anything, I have always been eager to learn and all my lovers (I have had relatively few) knew and cared about how to give me pleasure. Given the surreal amount of **** I have lived through health-wise, I believe I more than deserve it.

Have had plenty a candid conversation with my mother, an ex-model in Soviet Russia who’s done a lot of erotic shots, and she rates her sex life as extremely happy and fulfilling, full of orgasms and very creative things occurring up until now. I know at least 4 women I am very close to who have all reported mostly good sexual experiences…

I apologise to anyone who now finds this thread tmi & a touch too weird… If the above does suggest I am “lucky”, other life experiences more than offset that.

None of em are known films, i mean worldwide, all low key films unfortunately

I hear you, and u have my sympathy for what u just said, im sorry it happened to you this way, but all good for you in the end, how to come out of the experience

I do know all of them & have seen all but 2, but this is a good point - they are not exactly “mainstream”.

Thank you. I really appreciate it.

I made a thread long time ago here talking about the same subject, the absolute demise of the erotic thriller genre, or the romance thriller genre, movies like : China Moon,Damaged , last seduction etc..., i haven t mentioned the 80s ones, i mentioned the last of the erotic era as we know it, by 1994

I remember that one.

As an aside, in my experience, only men tend to understand my POV on this. Not even my mother, who’s seen all of that **** first-hand, does. Guess I’m in the wrong tribe emotionally

Only saw this just now. Faye Dunaway (huge fan) wrote something somewhere that it was pretty awful filming scenes like this with Redford. She said he mostly was on his phone & she said she could barely keep a straight face during this scene & others.

One cringeworthy thing in the movie (huge fan of Redford too) was when he demanded to know if he had “raped her” when she was complaining (I think) about the circumstance she now found herself in with him. Ewwwww, very dated remark.

Yes, I love her too. Goddess. I imagine they didn’t have chemistry, it happens.

Dated indeed.

Still think it’s a great film.

Very very interesting. I still don’t know why you said “the most disgusting sex scene I’ve ever seen/read anywhere (and I don’t mean “disgusting” in a good way)”, but that’s okay. I’ve enjoyed this discussion very much.

BTW, cynical me doesn’t always believe everything women say about their sex lives. People embellish! (Don’t mean you.)

One day we’ll discuss multiple partners or ménage à trois.

I would have to disagree, and I loved when Redford asked that because you never hear characters ask that anymore to establish how the other person may feel. I found it to realistic.

She was beyond in The Thomas Crown Affair.

Condor was good. Seen it a few times. Probably wouldn’t describe it as great, but that’s okay.

Yes, please. *rubs hands*

I completely understand. And I suppose my sex live can always get better - incidentally I’m now with that same old friend in a casual but very safe and very pleasurable fling. He doesn’t mind that I ****ed that client. He makes me feel as safe as I can feel and that’s saying a lot. I’m too scared for attachment.

“Everything a woman says” in relation to my mother - unfortunately I grew up listening to the very vocal evidence of her pleasure, which is also far from healthy. But at least I knew what to strive for she always said “Your father is a despicable individual in many ways, being in the military and all, but Christ can he ****.”

So that was that. Aaaaaaand I am emotionally single

EDIT: re: “disgusting” - that is the most accurate word to describe what I felt when I first read it. I find it unpleasant… this is coming from someone who loves body horror & gore. I guess I just didn’t want to have to be forced to see that side of things, and that’s exactly what my friend/lover pointed out during the talk.