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Re: trust issues.

Yeah, a lot of people burned a lot of trust and goodwill during this, and it's a real shame. It's going to make things much harder next time.

I'm not talking about "well, people have to respond to changing data" or "it's hard to know things in the early going," both of which are true, but both of which require humility about those initial conclusions before they're superseded by new data, too. No, I mean the, eh, fibbing about mask efficacy to try to avoid shortages, as well as the political editorializing (don't gather, but if your protest is really really important we understand).

If we implore people to "trust the science," that necessarily implies trusting the scientists, and that means they need to be rigorously impartial. They can't be politicians, carving out exceptions for non-medical things or withholding their best judgment because they worry how it may be received. They need to speak the truth as they understand it, period. That did not happen here in at least two very important ways, and I'm genuinely fearful for the erosion of public trust that's clearly resulted.
One of the best editorial statements I've read in a while!
This message should be made known to the entire world.
Thanks Chris!



Still only seeing a 1% difference but hey it's a long time since I've been to school. I can take your word for it.
Yoda already sort of explained, but if you go from 10 infected people to 8 infected people you have dropped by 2 people, but that represents a 20% drop (because 2/10 = 20%).

If you go from 8.6% of your population being infected to 7.6% of your population, you've just carved 12% off of your cases.

It would be helpful if we knew about the surge in advance I would say. How did we get to talking about medical facilities anyway? Back to the surge, so you don't mind if we disregard masks before and after the surge as long as we wear them during the surge, ok got it. Even if I'm vaccinated? I only ask because I was sure that I heard somewhere that once I got the jab I wouldn't have to go back to the mask. Not that there's anything wrong with it.
When a medical system is overburdened, common sense suggests adjusting behaviors to be more conservative, which might mean forgoing certain behaviors or activities. A few months ago, rates in my county were relatively low, as were rates in my parents' county, and as a group we felt comfortable being unmasked together. Now, we're back to masking.

This is a shifting situation. Different variations have different features. Different places in the country experience peaks and valleys at different times.

And everyone knew about this surge in advance. Everyone. Because every time you get a bunch of people together (ie holidays), you see a surge. My NC surgeon friend says that her hospital had this surge planned out for the last two months, though they did not anticipate quite how bad it would be because they did not foresee Omicron.

I would also point out that erosion of trust in much of this is due to the poor track record and constant readjusting of goal posts by the powers that be. When all this started, I think for the most part, people were willing to cooperate, questioning things a lot less.
I mean, not in my area. I had to (and continue to) drive 30 minutes to a new and different grocery store because even during lockdown and the mask mandate, about 30% of the people in the grocery store were unmasked. And after the whole "some people just wear the mask to show disapproval of me" thing it got worse. A guy I was hiking with told me he went into the gas station with his son--both of them masked--and a man came up to them yelling at them to take off their masks, despite it being the store policy to wear them.




I mean, not in my area. I had to (and continue to) drive 30 minutes to a new and different grocery store because even during lockdown and the mask mandate, about 30% of the people in the grocery store were unmasked. And after the whole "some people just wear the mask to show disapproval of me" thing it got worse. A guy I was hiking with told me he went into the gas station with his son--both of them masked--and a man came up to them yelling at them to take off their masks, despite it being the store policy to wear them.

Good Lord. I knew it was considerably worse in the states but I think my head would explode if I lived where you are. I'm currently living in what is probably one of the anti-mask capitals of Ontario, and while we get lots of street protests about this 'fascism', it is pretty rare to see anyone unmasked in stores at this point.



For the last two months I even had to be the guy who enforced mask wearing in the store I was working at, and I had zero refusals. A couple of people made jokey references to 'showing their papers' in German accents, you know, because there is apparently the threat of extermination if they don't comply. But everyone I dealt with put one one. The only time I had any serious pushback was when I was doing a count for capacity, and some woman came up to me and got right in my face, glaring at the machine I was using to count. She did some head shaking but when I just blankly stared back at her from the deep reservoir of boredom I regarded her from, she quickly went away.



For the last two months I even had to be the guy who enforced mask wearing in the store I was working at, and I had zero refusals. A couple of people made jokey references to 'showing their papers' in German accents, you know, because there is apparently the threat of extermination if they don't comply. But everyone I dealt with put one one. The only time I had any serious pushback was when I was doing a count for capacity, and some woman came up to me and got right in my face, glaring at the machine I was using to count. She did some head shaking but when I just blankly stared back at her from the deep reservoir of boredom I regarded her from, she quickly went away.
When I was at my (old) grocery store, I was getting frustrated constantly running into unmasked customers. I asked an employee if they were enforcing the mask policy and she was like "Well, we can't really enforce it. We'd have to ask them to put the mask on." YES YOU WOULD. But you know what? This was at the same time that people were literally being shot, stabbed, and otherwise assaulted for trying to enforce store mask policies, so I couldn't be mad at her for that attitude.



When I was at my (old) grocery store, I was getting frustrated constantly running into unmasked customers. I asked an employee if they were enforcing the mask policy and she was like "Well, we can't really enforce it. We'd have to ask them to put the mask on." YES YOU WOULD. But you know what? This was at the same time that people were literally being shot, stabbed, and otherwise assaulted for trying to enforce store mask policies, so I couldn't be mad at her for that attitude.

This is one of the (many) other infuriating things I've seen during the pandemic. How businesses (many run by multi million or billion dollar corporations) leave enforcement of these rules up to their staff of underpaid teenagers.



Where I was, they left it up to our discretion how we wanted to deal with non-compliant customers. But we were never allowed to engage with someone who was becoming disruptive. And not that I would have even considered it (especially for minimum wage), but this also leave a huge door open for those who would prefer not to play their part. And also, for employees to start getting grief from the other side of the spectrum, those wearing masks who demand those in these ****, no-pay jobs act as enforcers and put their bodies on the line.


I just have so much '**** you' for so much of the world these days.



“Sugar is the most important thing in my life…”
Trader Joe’s (in NC at that) is great for mask wearing. Especially in there, because it’s essentially a lot of people shopping a bodega.

I was gonna link the study that Duke did about the efficacy of masks, but the mask horse has long left the barn.

Next time I have a surgery, I plan on telling the surgeon to not let somebody tell him how to live free. Spit in my wound while saying the Pledge.

We just don’t care about each other. Never forget.



Yoda already sort of explained, but if you go from 10 infected people to 8 infected people you have dropped by 2 people, but that represents a 20% drop (because 2/10 = 20%).

If you go from 8.6% of your population being infected to 7.6% of your population, you've just carved 12% off of your cases.
Right, so the study claims masks make a difference for 1 out of 100 people. To me that's a very small difference on a personal level.

When a medical system is overburdened, common sense suggests adjusting behaviors to be more conservative, which might mean forgoing certain behaviors or activities. A few months ago, rates in my county were relatively low, as were rates in my parents' county, and as a group we felt comfortable being unmasked together. Now, we're back to masking.

This is a shifting situation. Different variations have different features. Different places in the country experience peaks and valleys at different times.

And everyone knew about this surge in advance. Everyone. Because every time you get a bunch of people together (ie holidays), you see a surge. My NC surgeon friend says that her hospital had this surge planned out for the last two months, though they did not anticipate quite how bad it would be because they did not foresee Omicron.
I'm well aware of the strain on medical facilities. My part time job consists of me picking up covid samples at Boston areas hospital and the like. I certainly wouldn't go on a cruise at this time. That has nothing to do with my belief that a co-worker trying to dictate what I do when I'm not working is overstepping their boundaries.



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Right, so the study claims masks make a difference for 1 out of 100 people.

the reason why i believe that COVID has been such a tremendous issue for medical professionals and lots of people is because it's a sneaky virus overall, you can get a range of symptoms and severities. I don't believe having a lot of anxiety and control is really worth it, in the end i just think that in the end it's personal: to what extent is it worth avoiding? I've avoided crowds of people, worn a mask sometimes, and had the vaccine and i haven't gotten sick, or at least i don't think i have.



the reason why i believe that COVID has been such a tremendous issue for medical professionals and lots of people is because it's a sneaky virus overall, you can get a range of symptoms and severities. I don't believe having a lot of anxiety and control is really worth it, in the end i just think that in the end it's personal: to what extent is it worth avoiding? I've avoided crowds of people, worn a mask sometimes, and had the vaccine and i haven't gotten sick, or at least i don't think i have.
Yea I think there's a fine line. It's important to think about the big picture but also important to think about oneself. Masks are an important tool for the overall good yet probably not as effective on a personal level as some people think, at least the types of masks that most people are wearing. I'm terrified of getting Covid but at the same time I don't live in fear because I believe it will happen regardless of what I do. The vaccine is what gives me some comfort or else I would have more of a daily fear. I could have it now. I left work after 3 hours this morning because my wife was sick and now I'm not feeling quite right. Impossible to get a test at the moment so I'll be going to work tomorrow while she stays home to rest. Wednesday is our busiest day and we already have a few guys out sick. I don't breathe very well masked while doing my job but I'm going to have to keep one on tomorrow just in case I'm infected. Not really sure what else to do.



If we consider the date of Jan. 01, 2020 as the median "start" of Covid-19 in the U.S. ...

(some say it was here as early as 2 months before in 2019, while others feel that it "officially" became recorded, tracked and of epidemic proportions in the country about 2 months after the new year of 2020)

...then in only about 2 more months (give or take a few weeks) we should reach the same time-period end point as the Spanish flu which was recorded as running a total of 2 years and 2 months in the early 20th century before it mutated, weakened, dissipated and became indisguisable from the typical seasonal flu.

The Spanish flu was also a global pandemic. It killed between 17 - 100 million people worldwide with an estimated 500 million cases of infection. But it dissipated on its own in an era where there were no confirmed effective treatments, no vaccines, antiquated diagnostic techniques, and no medical equipment even close to what we have now.

Over a century later we have multiple treatments, vaccines that limit severity, tests, and advanced medical equipment, plus decades of medical understanding. Our major disadvantage in the 21st century is the human population is many times larger than it was a century ago.

So hopefully, we can at least have a tie with the time frame & end date, with our modern medical advances potentially compensating for our much larger global population.

Thus, I'm hoping (not predicting) that the C-19 pandemic will be all but over by the end of March 2022 with the advent of Spring this year.

Of course, another problem we face in our current age is that many groups, organizations, political parties & individuals have found a great deal of profit and power from the pandemic and the fear mongering that's been utilized over it - so there are those with a vested interest in making sure it continues in some form (even if it means continued disinformation & fallacies) no matter the suffering and detriment it costs.

Let the countdown begin.



Right, so the study claims masks make a difference for 1 out of 100 people. To me that's a very small difference on a personal level.
The thing is, there aren't just 100 people in our country. There are millions. And so 1 out of 100 people can make a huge difference when it comes to how many beds are available in a hospital, how many beds are available in an ICU, how many ventilators are free.

Imagine if every hospital right now could reduce their case load by 12%. Would that seem like a small difference?

That has nothing to do with my belief that a co-worker trying to dictate what I do when I'm not working is overstepping their boundaries.
He wasn't dictating, for crying out loud. He was complaining about the fact that his job requires him to share a physical space with a person who is (1) taking something he perceives to be an unnecessary risk and (2) already does a poor job with existing precautions. For those of us with medically vulnerable family members, the risks taken by others around us by extension become our own risks.

I'm not trying to dictate that my unvaccinated co-worker shouldn't have come to work after being exposed to three different people who are showing symptoms and then ate with us (unmasked of course because eating), waiting until the end of the meal before telling us that he's possibly been exposed. But I'm allowed to be annoyed about it and grouse about it on the internet!



The thing is, there aren't just 100 people in our country. There are millions. And so 1 out of 100 people can make a huge difference when it comes to how many beds are available in a hospital, how many beds are available in an ICU, how many ventilators are free.

Imagine if every hospital right now could reduce their case load by 12%. Would that seem like a small difference?
I don't know why you keep going back to this because I think it's common knowledge. I'm specifically talking about personal level of protection.

He wasn't dictating, for crying out loud. He was complaining about the fact that his job requires him to share a physical space with a person who is (1) taking something he perceives to be an unnecessary risk and (2) already does a poor job with existing precautions. For those of us with medically vulnerable family members, the risks taken by others around us by extension become our own risks.

I'm not trying to dictate that my unvaccinated co-worker shouldn't have come to work after being exposed to three different people who are showing symptoms and then ate with us (unmasked of course because eating), waiting until the end of the meal before telling us that he's possibly been exposed. But I'm allowed to be annoyed about it and grouse about it on the internet!
He said he did not want him to go on the cruise despite the fact that they are both vaccinated. I believe he has no say in what his co-worker does when he is not at work.



I don't know why you keep going back to this because I think it's common knowledge. I'm specifically talking about personal level of protection.
If all you care about is harm reduction for yourself, then fine. I think that acting in a way that keeps other people safe is part of being a member of a community.

Covering your mouth/nose when you sneeze, not coming to school/work when you are sick . . . these things aren't about protecting yourself, they are about protecting others. Do you cover your mouth/nose when you sneeze? Do you stay home when you suspect you are sick and contagious?

He said he did not want him to go on the cruise despite the fact that they are both vaccinated. I believe he has no say in what his co-worker does when he is not at work.
He said he wished his co-worker would not take the cruise and would get tested before returning to work. He doesn't have a say in his co-worker's actions, but he's sure allowed to have an opinion about it!

I don't have a say in whether my students' parents let them stay up until 3am. But I'm allowed to have an opinion about it!



If all you care about is harm reduction for yourself, then fine. I think that acting in a way that keeps other people safe is part of being a member of a community.

Covering your mouth/nose when you sneeze, not coming to school/work when you are sick . . . these things aren't about protecting yourself, they are about protecting others. Do you cover your mouth/nose when you sneeze? Do you stay home when you suspect you are sick and contagious?
We're not talking about me. His posts indicated that he was worried about his protection, so that's why I'm specifically talking about personal protection.

He said he wished his co-worker would not take the cruise and would get tested before returning to work. He doesn't have a say in his co-worker's actions, but he's sure allowed to have an opinion about it!

I don't have a say in whether my students' parents let them stay up until 3am. But I'm allowed to have an opinion about it!
Someone said he couldn't talk about it? Are you saying people shouldn't respond to his posts? Not sure what's going on here.



Someone said he couldn't talk about it? Are you saying people shouldn't respond to his posts? Not sure what's going on here.
You keep saying he can't dictate his co-worker's behavior.

I'm pointing out that he's complaining about the behavior, not dictating it. There's a big difference!

Suppose his co-worker didn't cover his sneezes, or didn't wash his hands after using the bathroom. Would he have a right to complain about that? Even if the personal risk (calculated as a percentage) for him was relatively low?



You keep saying he can't dictate his co-worker's behavior.

I'm pointing out that he's complaining about the behavior, not dictating it. There's a big difference!
He said he did not "want" him to go on his cruise. I said it doesn't matter what he wants. You really take issue with that?

Suppose his co-worker didn't cover his sneezes, or didn't wash his hands after using the bathroom. Would he have a right to complain about that? Even if the personal risk (calculated as a percentage) for him was relatively low?
I'm not supposing anything that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about just so it can lead to more pointless posting.



He said he did not "want" him to go on his cruise. I said it doesn't matter what he wants. You really take issue with that?
Yes.

This is a stressful situation for a lot of people. He is venting, not at work, about the behavior of someone at work.

If I came into a thread and said that I wish parents wouldn't let their kids stay up until 3am, I don't think a very productive response would be "Well, it doesn't matter what you want."

He knows what he wants doesn't "matter". He knows he has no power over the actions of his co-worker. Being snide about his expression of anxiety and frustration at a situation that a lot of us are in (ie working in close quarters with people who are not taking precautions and who are behaving in ways we see as risky) just isn't a very nice way to respond.



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If all you care about is harm reduction for yourself, then fine. I think that acting in a way that keeps other people safe is part of being a member of a community.

Covering your mouth/nose when you sneeze, not coming to school/work when you are sick . . . these things aren't about protecting yourself, they are about protecting others. Do you cover your mouth/nose when you sneeze? Do you stay home when you suspect you are sick and contagious?

however, people have certain needs: eat food, drink water, get exercise, find stimulation other than just sitting in front of a screen. I don't have a "community", do you mean the folks who collect my money on a regular basis? The shadowy characters who do things i disapprove of and don't care or make excuses? That's not community, they don't help me survive directly, they're just strangers. There's my pets and a couple of people who i know and care about, but a lot of the people who i used to know are isolating right now or are just overwhelmed by their own problems that they can't give me the time of day.


Do you expect others to worry about covid as much as you do? Do you think having a more authoritarian style of lockdown and more onerous regulations would fix the problem in the long term? In terms of behavioral control and legality, i think "we" have done the best we really can, but we could have done without all the misinformation and polarizing politics...then people would see things more clearly, and be able to think in terms of others around them and themselves, the two aren't all that different if you think about it, us and the others.



Yes.

This is a stressful situation for a lot of people. He is venting, not at work, about the behavior of someone at work.

If I came into a thread and said that I wish parents wouldn't let their kids stay up until 3am, I don't think a very productive response would be "Well, it doesn't matter what you want."

He knows what he wants doesn't "matter". He knows he has no power over the actions of his co-worker. Being snide about his expression of anxiety and frustration at a situation that a lot of us are in (ie working in close quarters with people who are not taking precautions and who are behaving in ways we see as risky) just isn't a very nice way to respond.
Because it may not seem very nice, I told him it was nothing personal. The poster and the person he is speaking about are both vaccinated-very key to why I responded. In my opinion, what his vaccinated co-worker does in his free time is his business. We are not talking about kids or unvaccinated people. And you can go on and on about how the co-worker is engaging in what you consider to be risky behavior, but I don't care. I think the poster is overstepping his boundaries. Then you can go on and on about how the poster is allowed to complain, but nobody said otherwise.