Same sex marriage &amp; Polygamy

I am Jack's sense of overused quote

05-29-08

Originally Posted by adidasss

Now I'd like you to give some actual arguments against polygamy.

In the United States, an employer is required by law to give 100% of 401k to an employee's spouse. The spouse needs to sign a document if the employee wishes it to go anywhere else. IF someone has more than one spouse, where does the money go?

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adidasss

new and improved

05-29-08

It's evenly distributed to all of the spouses?

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gohansrage

I am Jack's sense of overused quote

05-29-08

Originally Posted by adidasss

It's evenly distributed to all of the spouses?

But should the wife who has had all four kids and has been with the husband for 10 years receive the same amount of money as his second wife who has been with him for 6 months and has no kids?

7thson

AMC Ape

05-29-08

Originally Posted by adidasss

I'd say the line is "consenting adults".

But that is unfair, if I cannot define marrige for everyone how can you define "consenting, or adult or relative, for many cousins are okay to marry?

Originally Posted by adidasss

You know, those same arguments are also used by people who oppose gay marriage.

I was being sarcastic with almost all I said, but guess that was lost in shuffle. I already said I do not oppose gay marrige.

I do not have any actual argument, I already told you that. Guess I lose.

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Last edited by 7thson; 05-29-08 at 10:37 AM.

adidasss

new and improved

05-29-08

Originally Posted by gohansrage

But should the wife who has had all four kids and has been with the husband for 10 years receive the same amount of money as his second wife who has been with him for 6 months and has no kids?

Yes. Presumably if someone decided to marry another person that would mean they'd want the same rights for them as their previous spouses otherwise there'd be no point in marrying them. There's always the option of divorce for the party who thinks this isn't fair...

Or you could create some sort of system that takes into account the amount of time spent in the marriage, offsprings etc.

These are things to be taken into account, but I don't see them as insurmountable obstacles or reasons not to allow such marriages.

Originally Posted by 7thson

But that is unfair, if I cannot define marrige for everyone how can you define "consenting, or adult or relative, for many cousins are okay to marry?

I don't equate force, incest or pedophilia with polygamy, sorry.

I already said I do not oppose gay marrige.

Don't both fly in the face of what is considered by some the very definition of marriage?

christine

Dreams is freedom

05-29-08

Thinking through the multiple spouse scenario. I can see it works in some cultures - and there are ones with multiple husbands too, it's not just one man + wives. I saw a tv programme about Tibet where there is a tradition of brothers marrying one wife. Most of these type of marriages are for traditional cultural, religious and more down to earth reasons such as needing lots of children cos of high child mortality and the need to have big families to carry out work on the land. Some of these marriages are carried on in Western countries for reasons that have long since disappeared, but as long as all the partners within the marriage are in agreement and treat each other in a grown up respectful way, then what's the harm? I can see lots of advantages for children within such a family.

There's lots of people in countries around the world who seem to live happily enough together (as far as anyone can know about anyone elses marriage). However, I just don't like the idea of 'forced' marriage, or the tradition subjugation of women within multiple partner marriages, or the evidence of underage girls being married off, all those sorts of things that make people view polygamy with horror ....but y'know abuse goes also on in 'normal' marriages everyday and no one says we can't have marriage because some people can't make it work. It's about treating your fellow human beings with respect, not allowing or disallowing them to do something that doesn't harm anyone else.

Anyway I'm rambling

Sedai

A system of cells interlinked

05-29-08

I was responding the the polygamy line of convo, btw, Adi. My angle is that marriage vows are best shared between two people. As for the gender of the people involved, that doesn't really matter to me, and it isn't really my business.

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Last edited by Sedai; 05-29-08 at 12:32 PM.

Caitlyn

MoFo Patrol

05-29-08

Originally Posted by Sedai

My angle is that marriage vows are best shared between two people. As for the gender of the people involved, that doesn't really matter to me, and it isn't really my business.

Sedai pretty much summed up how I feel about it...

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adidasss

new and improved

05-29-08

Originally Posted by Sedai

My angle is that marriage vows are best shared between two people.

We're going around in circles I think and it seems to me that my responses are being ignored. It's a little frustrating trying to have a discussion on something only to be faced with the "just because" argumentation.

gohansrage

I am Jack's sense of overused quote

05-29-08

Originally Posted by adidasss

I gave you a reason?

adidasss

new and improved

05-29-08

Did you read my response to it?

Sedai

A system of cells interlinked

05-29-08

Originally Posted by adidasss

I read your entire line of convo in this thread. I don't see any "just because" in my reply.

adidasss

new and improved

05-29-08

Well I took the fact that you don't really give any explanation as to why marriage vows are best shared between two people as "just because". You're welcome to elaborate your opposition to polygamy further of course, if we've successfully overcome that "marriage is inextricably tied to religion" nonsense. If the sex of the spouses isn't really any of your business, why is their number?

Powdered Water

Parm A Shaun

05-29-08

This seems as good a place as any for this story I just heard a few minutes ago. And this is coming from my home town which is reportedly one of the most rainbow freindly areas of the country.

SEATTLE -- A local lesbian couple says a peck on the lips nearly got the two of them tossed out of a Mariners game.

The women said in an arena where even chanting and screaming are allowed, they were singled out by a security guard simply because they kissed each other.

Sirbrina Guerrero says she only gave her date a peck, but a mother sitting with her son complained to security and, as a result, they were told to stop or leave.

"And he (the security guard) goes 'there's a lady whose son says he saw you guys making out, and I did, too. And you have to stop.' And I said 'well, we weren't making out, but we were kissing and I'm not going to stop,'" said Guerrero.

Guerrero says the only reason she was called out was because of her sexual orientation.

"(The security guard said) the mom doesn't want to explain to the kids why two girls are kissing. So I said 'well, I'm not going to stop, so you'll have to kick me out. So he said 'so I suggest you leave then,"' she said.

Safeco Field officials refused to comment on the incident. However, officials did send KOMO News a copy of the field's code of conduct which states "displays of affection are not appropriate in a public family setting."

But Guerrero and her friends don't buy it. After Guerrero was flagged at the game, they took pictures of other couples who kissed but were not reprimanded. Those couples, they said, were heterosexual.

Guerrero's friend Melissa Benavites, who was also at the game, said Guerrero did not lash out inappropriately at the security guard. She also said her friend's reaction was not overly sensitive.

"No, no. Not too sensitive about a situation like this. I mean, it could have been handled in another way," she said.

When asked whether she and her date were acting lewd in any way that would have prompted such a firm response from the security guard, Guerrero said, "We were eating garlic fries. The last thing we wanted to do was make out with each other. Honestly, that's what it was."

Stadium officials are questioning all staff members involved. They refused to discuss details, but did say their security guards would never target same-sex couples.

From Komo news TV. There's video too, if you prefer not to read.

It seems to me the more things change the more things stay the same. Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread Adi, I just thought it was an interesting story.

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7thson

AMC Ape

05-29-08

Originally Posted by adidasss

You're welcome to elaborate your opposition to polygamy further of course, if we've successfully overcome that "marriage is inextricably tied to religion" nonsense.

There can be a difference between religion and beliefs, beliefs that do not have to be related to a god or lack thereof.

I understand your take on this, the problem you have is that you are not willing to understand my take. You do not have to agree, never asked you too, but as varied as the world is it cannot be that tough to understand that some people think polygamy should not be allowed. Sometimes things are not black and white and it is not easy to say I do not like or disagree with A because of B. It just seems demeaning to me for a person to have to share their spouse with others. Sure it is great for the person with many wives, but each wife has to share, to me marrige is a bond between two people. If sex and numbers do not mateer then again I ask where do you draw the line. I guess a group of 50 people and of different sexes could all get married right? It just kind of dillutes the whole thing in my opinion.

gohansrage

I am Jack's sense of overused quote

05-29-08

Originally Posted by Powdered Water

This seems as good a place as any for this story I just heard a few minutes ago. And this is coming from my home town which is reportedly one of the most rainbow freindly areas of the country.

From Komo news TV. There's video too, if you prefer not to read.

It seems to me the more things change the more things stay the same. Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread Adi, I just thought it was an interesting story.

That's pretty awful.

Sedai

A system of cells interlinked

05-29-08

Originally Posted by adidasss

How can a person give their heart and soul over totally to multiple people? The very idea of that is ridiculous. Marriage is based on commitment, and threesomes (or more) can't have proper commitment, because there are no boundaries, or they are illusory. Other negative feelings and situations are inherent to marriages beyond two people. Some of my mother's friends from the 60s and 70s tried to do this back then and they are STILL tied up in legalities and horrible emotional issues TODAY because of it. That's decades of strife, if anyone is counting. DECADES OF STRIFE.

Have at it! I mean, what do these people know? They are only more experienced, wiser, and have been there and done that.

From what I can tell talking to these people, it was some ridiculous ego-trip for the man, and, I presume, it still is. it sure as hell looks like it to me...

Meanwhile, I had one woman, and that was ENOUGH! I just can't imagine having to thrust and parry through life with multiple women I am sleeping with, who were all legally tied to me. That is some scary **** right there!

christine

Dreams is freedom

05-29-08

Originally Posted by Sedai

How can a person give their heart and soul over totally to multiple people? The very idea of that is ridiculous.

I know this is different, but you saying that reminds me of my friend who only has one child while I had two. Years later she said to me that part of the reason she stopped at one was that she couldn't imagine being able to share her love with a second child. What a shame when love is easily shared cos you love different things in different people.

Maybe some people can share their love out in a marriage, I dunno, but I wouldn't be bothered if they wanted to try.

rufnek

Registered User

05-29-08

Originally Posted by Count DeMoney

I asked a guy once who came from a culture that allowed multiple wives (I was curious as one wife is enough for me)...he hit me with this:

"In some countries that are decimated by centuries of war, the male population dwindles to the point where there are a lot more women then men...

Do you allow these women to be forever alone due to lack of men?
Do you deny them the chance at love at all...due to numbers?"

After I got over the chovenistic tone of the comment...it kinda made sense to me...go figure...

If that makes sense, then why haven't women ever been allowed to take multiple husbands in locations and times where men have outnumbered women, as was often the case in the West on the US Frontier, in Texas both when it was part of Mexico and during its days as a Republic, in Australia during its early settlement? Only in a movie, Paint Your Wagon.

As for your friend's explanation, that's just another version of the old wives tale, which is actually circulated by old husbands, that a woman isn't fulfilled without a husband and kids. If he's worried about lonely women in need of love, than he should encourage lesbianism as well as polygamy.

rufnek